Hollywood Derby

[raybo]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but this one seems rather uninspiring to me. Very short field, and if CC runs on the dirt as well as on the dirt, a one horse race, IMO. I suppose, if CC tries to run like a turf horse he might get himself beaten, but seeing as how this is his first turf race, maybe he will just run. If he does that, just runs, then his velocities put him well ahead of everyone else in the race.

Here are my ranked selections, based strictly on Class and Form, due to this being a high class turf race (I feel distance and running style are not a significant problem for any of the contenders, so Class and Form are the biggies here):

Horse# - Name - Class - ( Form and days off )

5 - California Chrome - 4833 (all dirt) - ( - , 3+, 28 )
3 - Flamboyant (Fr) --- 1030 ----------- ( - , 3+, 29 )
2 - Lexie Lou ----------- 569 ------------ ( poor, 3+, 35 )
4 - Sawyer's Hill ------- 413 ------------ ( - , 1=, 9 )

Good luck!!

[JustRalph]

It's a gift if he runs comfortable. I just didn't like his footing in the last workout.

Even if he doesn't take to it, he could win easy I guess

Not sure it makes him look any better, but it could definitely make him look worse

[raybo]

It's a gift if he runs comfortable. I just didn't like his footing in the last workout.

Even if he doesn't take to it, he could win easy I guess

Yeah, he's going to have to lay back and let the others run their slow fractions to get himself beaten. A "gift" is right! And, my prediction is that he wins easily and that will make him 3 yo and HOTY, since Bayern isn't running anymore races this year, at least to my knowledge anyway.

[Tom]

There is nothing he can do in this race but disgrace himself by losing.
It is a pathetic field. One single Gr3 winner in the bunch. Not even worth watching. I hope he loses badly.

What's next, Mountaineer allowance races?

[raybo]

There is nothing he can do in this race but disgrace himself by losing.
It is a pathetic field. One single Gr3 winner in the bunch. Not even worth watching. I hope he loses badly.

What's next, Mountaineer allowance races?

I, too, hope he loses badly, but unfortunately I don't think he will, and I fear that many of the voters for the year end awards will look upon this race, if he does win, as confirmation that he had the best year. I couldn't disagree more.

Imagine what would have happened yesterday, if Bayern had entered the Clark. The pace would almost certainly not have been slow, and if somehow it did, Bayern would have won by open lengths almost assuredly. The race would have been a much better race, IMO, and would have meant much more regarding the year end awards than does this turf race.

[zico20]

Do not like Lexie Lou at all. Think she runs last. I just have never like Woodbine horses when they leave Canada. And she isn't that good to start. My bet is simple.

:5: over the :1: :3: :4: tri and super. I hope Lexie Lou gets pounded as the 2nd choice down to 2-1 or so. We all know CC is going off 2-5 or so. There is money to be made if Lexie Lou fails to be in the super.

[Stillriledup]

There is nothing he can do in this race but disgrace himself by losing.
It is a pathetic field. One single Gr3 winner in the bunch. Not even worth watching. I hope he loses badly.

What's next, Mountaineer allowance races?

If the race is as weak as you say, for 300k, why be critical of him running? Seems like a cushy spot to pick up a "free" buck 80.

[raybo]

If the race is as weak as you say, for 300k, why be critical of him running? Seems like a cushy spot to pick up a "free" buck 80.

Nothing is "free" in this game. Even the best in the field can run bad, regardless of the degree of "best". And, at the price he will be offered at, no thanks. That is the kind of thinking that makes losing players, losing players.

[Saratoga_Mike]

There is nothing he can do in this race but disgrace himself by losing.
It is a pathetic field. One single Gr3 winner in the bunch. Not even worth watching. I hope he loses badly.

What's next, Mountaineer allowance races?

Would this include an appearance fee? If so, there may be interest.

[Robert Fischer]

:1: Talco and :3: Flamboyant are the two interesting horses here.

I don't think Chrome's style transfers well to the turf, but this is a tiny field and there aren't a lot of heavy hitters. He could win.

[Robert Fischer]

$2 Double race7
:2::3::4::8: with :1::3::5: = $24

[Robert Fischer]

someone just made a big bet on the 4-1 double

[Some_One]

I don't think Chrome's style transfers well to the turf, but this is a tiny field and there aren't a lot of heavy hitters. He could win.

I think its a win by a mile or lose by a mile situation. His pedigree is not great for turf (not like it was anything spectacular for dirt either) and that published work can't be right (52 on turf for 4f?).

[Robert Fischer]

I think its a win by a mile or lose by a mile situation. His pedigree is not great for turf (not like it was anything spectacular for dirt either) and that published work can't be right (52 on turf for 4f?).

If the race favors speed, he can control and then take over.

But if it ends up being fair or closer-friendly, his tactical speed isn't worth as much.

I put $2 across on the :1:

[Stillriledup]

You gotta bet against him, no?

[Tee]

Sawyer's Hill

[Stillriledup]

Sawyer's Hill

Talco might be ready to roar here.

[Tom]

Could Todd be any more pathetic in his commentary for this circus?

Looks likes CC showed THAT bunch of allowance horses who's boss! :D

[Robert Fischer]

Looked pretty easy.

[cj]

Could Todd be any more pathetic in his commentary for this circus?

Trevor gave him a run for his money with his call, but I guess that is what he is paid to do.

[Tom]

Yeah, Trevor must not get out much!

[arw629]

$49.90 for a dollar super....like how?

[banacek]

$2.70 to place with the second favourite in 2nd...that was what I thought his win price would be. $3.40 was probably an overlay..but still hard to bet.

[Clocker]

The guys on TVG are treating this like the greatest event in the history of man. :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

Good for the game to play to the fans sometimes.

[Grits]

It is good for the game, Robert.

He's legit, as many have known, and this was a legit win.

Its about the horse. Not the trainer, the owner, the race caller, or the TVG crew.

Nice. Pleased for him...

[arw629]

I hope CC wins HOY for the connections and the fans

[Tom]

The guys on TVG are treating this like the greatest event in the history of man. :rolleyes:

I was far more impressed with Ben's Cat winning off at age 8. :ThmbUp:

Did Wise Dan retire?
If he didn't he better.
A monster is coming! :eek:

[classhandicapper]

I have no idea how much he's worth, but given his pedigree it's probably less than most other Derby winners. It wasn't a strong field, but a Grade 1 win on turf will help his resume when he retires. Now he has won on all 3 surfaces. That can't hurt either.

[Grits]

Sure it can't do anything but help. As far as what he beat. Same was said about Zenyatta. Look where it got her. It was always noted...can only run against who shows up.

There are some who will never respect the horse. That's a shame, but it happens.

[iceknight]

Sure it can't do anything but help. As far as what he beat. Same was said about Zenyatta. Look where it got her. It was always noted...can only run against who shows up.

There are some who will never respect the horse. That's a shame, but it happens. Very sane reasonable comments.

Unlike some other haters who were "hoping for him to lose badly"... and showing their class yet again.

[Stillriledup]

Sure it can't do anything but help. As far as what he beat. Same was said about Zenyatta. Look where it got her. It was always noted...can only run against who shows up.

There are some who will never respect the horse. That's a shame, but it happens.

I agree, the "beat nothing" argument is lame.

[JustRalph]

How does he compare with others from the past?

how about a horse that did this?

Illinois Derby
Haskell Invitational Handicap

Triple Crown classic race wins:
Kentucky Derby
Preakness Stakes
Is he better than that? Or about the same?

[Grits]

Why compare him to War Emblem?

What 12 years ago? What good does this do?

Didn't he get Champion 3 YO?

How does he compare with others from the past?

how about a horse that did this?

Illinois Derby
Haskell Invitational Handicap

Triple Crown classic race wins:
Kentucky Derby
Preakness Stakes
Is he better than that? Or about the same?

[Grits]

As three year olds go, the only thing War Emblem and Bayern have in common?

They both can really screw up in the gate. One down, the other, sideways. :lol:

[BettinBilly]

I was alive in the Pick 4 until the final race. Still, good excitement. Yes, I went with Chrome in the Pick 4.

[cutchemist42]

CC actually ran a lot in 2014, gotta respect that.

[raybo]

Very sane reasonable comments.

Unlike some other haters who were "hoping for him to lose badly"... and showing their class yet again.

I am one of those who hoped he would lose, because he doesn't deserve 3 yo or HOTY, and now he will probably get both, after beating a field he should beat any day of the year. His connections put him in this race because they knew he should beat that field easily, and that that win might put him over the top for the awards. They were right, on both counts. Unfortunate, but probably fact.

Oh, and by the way, you wouldn't know "class" if it smacked you in the face.

[Grits]

I am one of those who hoped he would lose, because he doesn't deserve 3 yo or HOTY, and now he will probably get both, after beating a field he should beat any day of the year. His connections put him in this race because they knew he should beat that field easily, and that that win might put him over the top for the awards. They were right, on both counts. Unfortunate, but probably fact.

Don't most connections place their horses in races that they feel they have a good chance of winning? And even, in this case, when the animal has never raced on grass, you didn't find this as taking a risk?

Never let it be admitted that for some reason this horse brings out the worst in people. What a shame to have this kind of animosity towards any animal that has tried as hard as this one has throughout this year.

I'm not hyped for any particular horse in regard to the awards...but I'm caring more and more about this one because of the unwarranted meanness directed towards him. Its uncalled for. He deserves better.

[raybo]

Don't most connections place their horses in races that they feel they have a good chance of winning? And even, in this case, when the animal has never raced on grass, you didn't find this as taking a risk?

Never let it be admitted that for some reason this horse brings out the worst in people. What a shame to have this kind of animosity towards any animal that has tried as hard as this one has throughout this year.

I'm not hyped for any particular horse in regard to the awards...but I'm caring more and more about this one because of the unwarranted meanness directed towards him. Its uncalled for. He deserves better.

Believe me, they knew he could handle the turf after a couple of works on that surface. They even admitted that running him on the grass would make him look better for the awards. They said nothing about running in a race that would actually prove he was the most deserving of 3 yo or HOTY. They entered him in a very weak race that he should win easily, and look good for the year end awards.

I have no animosity against CC, he's a good horse, but, IMO, is not the 3 yo or HOTY, unless he wins some races against very good horses after the TC. Today was not that race.

[Grits]

Believe me, they knew he could handle the turf after a couple of works on that surface. They even admitted that running him on the grass would make him look better for the awards. They said nothing about running in a race that would actually prove he was the most deserving of 3 yo or HOTY. They entered him in a very weak race that he should win easily, and look good for the year end awards.

I have no animosity against CC, he's a good horse, but, IMO, is not the 3 yo or HOTY, unless he wins some races against very good horses after the TC. Today was not that race.

Regardless of your ranting here and in other posts, Raybo. There's a term for this and its used to advantage in business and in sport, everyday.

Tactics

[raybo]

Regardless of your ranting here and in other posts, Raybo. There's a term for this and its used to advantage in business and in sport, everyday.

Tactics

Rants? You of all people talk to me about rants? :lol:

[Grits]

Rants? You of all people talk to me about rants? :lol:

We all have 'em, Raybo. You, as well as myself. We've all had our share. Sorry, honey, no one's immune or above the fray 100% of the time. No one, at least, that watches and bets on horses. ;)

[JustRalph]

Why compare him to War Emblem?

What 12 years ago? What good does this do?

Didn't he get Champion 3 YO?

That was the parallel I was trying to draw. Maybe champion 3 yr old, but I'm not so sure chrome should be horse of the year. I will say I have argued in the past that winning the KY Derby should weigh more in the horse of the year voting. It's the race everybody wants on their resume. But is that true anymore?

In 2002 Horse of the year was Azeri. I don't think there are any Azeri's out there this year.....so maybe Chrome should be horse of the year?

Azeri.....heck of a record. 2002 was a hell of a year for Azeri

Clement L. Hirsch Handicap (2002, 2003)
Lady's Secret Breeders' Cup Handicap
(2002)
Santa Margarita Invitational Handicap (2002)
Apple Blossom Handicap
(2002, 2003, 2004)
Milady Breeders' Cup Handicap (2002, 2003)
Vanity Handicap (2002, 2003)
Go For Wand Handicap (2004)
Spinster Stakes (2004)

Breeders' Cup wins:
Breeders' Cup Distaff (2002)

[Cratos]

I don't have a "dog" in this fight one way or another, but if I am handing out the year end awards I would give CC horse-of-the-year based on his TC accomplishments.

His chief competitors would be Tonalist and Bayern.

The knock against Tonalist is that he is a "homer" (although I twice got some wooden nickels off of his wins) who keeps his "A" gsme at Belmont Park.

Bayern is a one-trick pony (and a very good one) who caught "racing luck" in a bottle twice by beating CC in the PA Derby who was coming off a layoff due to injury. Lady Luck was with him again in the BC Classic with a gate incidence at the start of the race.

Therefore CC wins the HOTY by default.

3yo of the year would go to Bayern.

[SandyW]

One thing for sure CC is one beautiful looking chestnut colt.

[Dark Horse]

I am one of those who hoped he would lose, because he doesn't deserve 3 yo or HOTY, and now he will probably get both, after beating a field he should beat any day of the year. His connections put him in this race because they knew he should beat that field easily, and that that win might put him over the top for the awards. They were right, on both counts. Unfortunate, but probably fact.


A horse that comes within a length and a half of the TC doesn't deserve 3 yo?

I don't care about abstract awards, because they're based solely on human opinion, rather than decided at the wire, but based on my model CC did a remarkable job by winning races under conditions that were far from ideal. It's a rare horse that can overcome such stuff, and much of the time we're cheering the horses with the most racing luck (extreme example Bayern in BC). So, while we're pissing in the wind with two cent opinions, my couple of pennies is that we've never even seen CC's best form of day. I hope we get that chance in 2015.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree, the "beat nothing" argument is lame.Might be lame. But it's also true. And it should count for something.

[classhandicapper]

I'm curious what standard everyone is using to come to the conclusion that the Hollywood Derby was a terrible field?

Talco has been competitive at the Grade 2 level twice.

Lexi Lou won a Grade 3 against fillies and the Queens Plate against boys.

Flamboyant was 3rd in the Grade 1 Belmont Derby before going to CA and running competitively in a Grade 2 in his last.

Sawyer's Hill has been very competitive at the Grade 2 level.

It looks like a solid Grade 2 race for 3yos on turf. Obviously, that's a long way from the BC Classic, but it wasn't a terrible field. It was a weak field relative to a multiple Grade 1 winner like CC.

[Tom]

It looks like a solid Grade 2 race for 3yos on turf.

Only one Graded stakes win among the that a Gr3.
That might cut is in April when 3yo horses are just getting going, but not in November. A horse who won 3 Gr1 and just missed in the BC Classic towered over that field. It was a weak Gr.3 race at best.

[Robert Fischer]

I'm curious what standard everyone is using to come to the conclusion that the Hollywood Derby was a terrible field?

People are looking at the actual quality of the field, not at the 5 rivals résumés through rose-colored glasses.

Sawyers hill = cheap speed who needs a grade 3 equivalent and a friendly pace scenario

Lexie Lou = Pretty nice 3yo filly, whose claim to fame was winning a Queens Plate...

Talco = Solid grade 3 closer who needs a pace collapse and was in decent form

Flamboyant = Solid grade 3 closer who needs a pace collapse and happened to be off form.

Cabral = nothing

You had 5 rivals total, 4 with a pulse.
None of which could threaten a grade 2 male straight up, and not enough horses in the field to present any real risk of a bad trip or a pace compromised trip.

He still had to run around the track without hating the surface or doing something crazy, but we was professional and it was a cakewalk.

[classhandicapper]

Only one Graded stakes win among the that a Gr3.
That might cut is in April when 3yo horses are just getting going, but not in November. A horse who won 3 Gr1 and just missed in the BC Classic towered over that field. It was a weak Gr.3 race at best.

The typical Grade 2 race does not have several Grade 2 winners in it. Grade 2 winners step up to Grade 1. The typical Grade 2 race will have Grade 3 winners and horses that have won at lower levels but been competitive in Grade 2. Since there aren't all that many graded stakes for 3yo turfers, a lot of young horses will jump up from the allowance or listed race ranks straight into graded competition.

We agree that he towered over that field, but that's a different issue. I think some of the other horses could be decent turfers next year.

[cj]

The typical Grade 2 race does not have several Grade 2 winners in it. Grade 2 winners step up to Grade 1. The typical Grade 2 race will have Grade 3 winners and horses that have won at lower levels but been competitive in Grade 2. Since there aren't all that many graded stakes for 3yo turfers, a lot of young horses will jump up from the allowance or listed race ranks straight into graded competition.

We agree that he towered over that field, but that's a different issue. I think some of the other horses could be decent turfers next year.

The California turf divisions, all of them, stink.

[classhandicapper]

The California turf divisions, all of them, stink.

lol.

I wouldn't go that far.

[Robert Fischer]

It's one thing to have a graded race with graded "contenders" and allowance winners - if they have talent.

When they don't have talent, you have to call a spade a spade.

[cj]

lol.

I wouldn't go that far.

Really? Which ones are any good? I can't think of a single G1 run there that was really a G1 in any division in 2014. None of the horses did a thing in the Breeder's Cup, and shippers routinely come in and take the races. Maybe I'm forgetting one. Kaigun and Za's Approval dominated the last one I remember, horses that were routinely also rans elsewhere, as one of many examples.

[banacek]

Therefore CC wins the HOTY by default.

3yo of the year would go to Bayern.

How can a 3yo be the horse of the year, but not the 3yo of the year?

[Robert Fischer]

How can a 3yo be the horse of the year, but not the 3yo of the year?

I could see doing that if they went Chrome=3yo, Bayern=Hoy

Chrome 'embodied' the 3yo season. He was the star of the triple crown series.

Bayern was arguably the better horse.


not sure what the original poster's stance was

[banacek]

I could see doing that if they went Chrome=3yo, Bayern=Hoy

Chrome 'embodied' the 3yo season. He was the star of the triple crown series.

Bayern was arguably the better horse.


not sure what the original poster's stance was

If either of them is Horse of the Year, they have to also be 3yo of the year.

Not saying it couldn't happen, just that it shouldn't. When Justin Verlander won MVP in 2011...he had to win the Cy Young too. Something like that might have happened in the past, but I can't see the logic.

[raybo]

I could see doing that if they went Chrome=3yo, Bayern=Hoy

Chrome 'embodied' the 3yo season. He was the star of the triple crown series.

Bayern was arguably the better horse.


not sure what the original poster's stance was

If you're talking about me, as "original poster", the first two posts by me in this thread should tell you exactly what my stance is. I predicted an easy win, in a very sub-par race, and that many of the voters for the year end awards would take this race as confirmation that CC should get the 3 yo and HOTY awards. The writing was on the wall, if CC won on the turf everyone would start crowning him the next coming. He beat nobody in this race, at least nobody that is in the running for ANY award this year. He was entered in this race for one reason, because unless he threw a complete clunker, he wins the race easily, and the connections seem very interested in running him on the turf next year, knowing that it will mean many easy wins against inferior competition, and will look good on his resume.

Everybody is singing praises for the connections of CC, what? Let's agree to wait until CC meets Bayern again, if they have the guts to run CC against him. Bayern was just maturing as a 3 yo in the last half of this year (and I'm not totally sure he has reached that 3 yo maturity, yet!), barring injury, he will be a monster next year, mark my words. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly take credit for being wrong, but if I'm right, well you know you gotta eat some crow too.

[raybo]

If either of them is Horse of the Year, they have to also be 3yo of the year.

Not saying it couldn't happen, just that it shouldn't. When Justin Verlander won MVP in 2011...he had to win the Cy Young too. Something like that might have happened in the past, but I can't see the logic.

Neither can I, if they don't win 3 yo of the year then they cannot win HOTY, because that means that at least one other 3 yo had a better year.

[Tom]

How can a 3yo be the horse of the year, but not the 3yo of the year?

Because there are no rules, and the the people that count don't get to vote.

[raybo]

Because there are no rules, and the the people that count don't get to vote.

Unfortunately, you are correct!

[whodoyoulike]

I liked the race. CC may have shown that he's maturing. He broke to the front nicely then suckered Sawyer's Hill to move early while staying close. At the turn at the top of the stretch it appeared he decided to stop messing around with this field and decided to show the others what he could do. He ran (time wise) a decent 8f and 9f.

I just hope he races in 2015. It was a fun race to watch.

[Cratos]

How can a 3yo be the horse of the year, but not the 3yo of the year?


I realize that this might be a conundrum for the voters, but I couldn’t see CC getting both awards (although he might deserve both) having loss to Bayern twice. Also I couldn’t take Bayern over CC because his best two wins appear to me to be serendipitously gotten.

However you wouldn’t get an argument from me if CC won both awards or if Bayern won both awards; 2014 has been that kind of year in horseracing.

[raybo]

I realize that this might be a conundrum for the voters, but I couldn’t see CC getting both awards (although he might deserve both) having loss to Bayern twice. Also I couldn’t take Bayern over CC because his best two wins appear to me to be serendipitously gotten.

However you wouldn’t get an argument from me if CC won both awards or if Bayern won both awards; 2014 has been that kind of year in horseracing.

You know, after all the hubbub of the BCC, and the mediocre Clark and Hollywood, I give up, and no longer care who 3 yo or HOTY is. I know which horse I'll be rooting for, and looking for big things from, in 2015, and it isn't CC, or any other horse that ran this year (well, maybe if WiseDan comes back for another season I'll certainly be rooting for him, once again).

Ya'll continue to discuss, I'll just wait a few weeks for my thrills.

[JustRalph]

I won't be surprised if the horse doesn't win anything. Voters might not want reward the pissed off cowboy

[PaceAdvantage]

Because there are no rules, and the the people that count don't get to vote.A lot of people who read and post on this board get a vote...thanks for telling them they don't count...lol

[Tom]

It should be all fans.
Then it would mean something.
I have come to see this whole thing as all fluff and no stuff.

[classhandicapper]

Really? Which ones are any good? I can't think of a single G1 run there that was really a G1 in any division in 2014. None of the horses did a thing in the Breeder's Cup, and shippers routinely come in and take the races. Maybe I'm forgetting one. Kaigun and Za's Approval dominated the last one I remember, horses that were routinely also rans elsewhere, as one of many examples.

I haven't paid close enough attention to all the turf racing in CA to make a judgement in every category, but I'd say horses like the Obviously, Tom's Tribute, and Winning Prize were solid this year. They got beat by the Euros in the BC, but that's a whole different level and a couple have had issues and tailed off. IMO they were pretty good.

I think people are looking at the massive gap between a BC Classic horse like CC and the horses and in the Hollywood Derby and saying the latter suck. But I think it's pretty typical for there to be massive gap between those 2 categories. Graded turf races for 3yos tend to be loaded with recent Alw winners and horses that have won Alw races and been competitive in any turf stakes that have been run regionally. They aren't strong races. Turf racing in the US is 2nd rate.

[classhandicapper]

I could see doing that if they went Chrome=3yo, Bayern=Hoy

Chrome 'embodied' the 3yo season. He was the star of the triple crown series.

Bayern was arguably the better horse.


not sure what the original poster's stance was

I see it the other way around.

I think you can make a great case for Bayern being 3yo of the year and HOTY because he beat CC 2-1 and won the most prestigious race of the year. But if they raced again on an honest track going 10F with just enough speed to keep the race honest, I'd bet CC. Bayern is very fast and talented. He probably has more upside than CC. But few horses have had as much good luck in major races as he had in 2014 to help make his outstanding record.

[cj]

I haven't paid close enough attention to all the turf racing in CA to make a judgement in every category, but I'd say horses like the Obviously, Tom's Tribute, and Winning Prize were solid this year. They got beat by the Euros in the BC, but that's a whole different level and a couple have had issues and tailed off. IMO they were pretty good.

I think people are looking at the massive gap between a BC Classic horse like CC and the horses and in the Hollywood Derby and saying the latter suck. But I think it's pretty typical for there to be massive gap between those 2 categories. Graded turf races for 3yos tend to be loaded with recent Alw winners and horses that have won Alw races and been competitive in any turf stakes that have been run regionally. They aren't strong races. Turf racing in the US is 2nd rate.

Those horses you mention only look good when they race against each other. I stand by my assertion that the horses based in California are a VERY weak bunch on the turf. They don't just lose to Breeder's Cup horses.

[Some_One]

I see it the other way around.

I think you can make a great case for Bayern being 3yo of the year and HOTY because he beat CC 2-1 and won the most prestigious race of the year. But if they raced again on an honest track going 10F with just enough speed to keep the race honest, I'd bet CC. Bayern is very fast and talented. He probably has more upside than CC. But few horses have had as much good luck in major races as he had in 2014 to help make his outstanding record.

If spring/first half of year races counted for anything, then how did Game on Dude not get a single HOTY vote last year?

[Stillriledup]

I see it the other way around.

I think you can make a great case for Bayern being 3yo of the year and HOTY because he beat CC 2-1 and won the most prestigious race of the year. But if they raced again on an honest track going 10F with just enough speed to keep the race honest, I'd bet CC. Bayern is very fast and talented. He probably has more upside than CC. But few horses have had as much good luck in major races as he had in 2014 to help make his outstanding record.

Isn't the Ky Derby the most prestigious race?

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't the Ky Derby the most prestigious race?If it is, it should not be. It's a race full of people chasing rainbows with horses who have little to no chance of winning.

Most prestigious? On what grounds? If you only win the Kentucky Derby in a given year, and don't do much else, does anyone really remember your name next year? Not really...

So no...the Derby isn't the most prestigious race. It's one of the most if not the most popular races with the general public. But it's not the most prestigious.

[Stillriledup]

If it is, it should not be. It's a race full of people chasing rainbows with horses who have little to no chance of winning.

Most prestigious? On what grounds? If you only win the Kentucky Derby in a given year, and don't do much else, does anyone really remember your name next year? Not really...

So no...the Derby isn't the most prestigious race. It's one of the most if not the most popular races with the general public. But it's not the most prestigious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prestige

[clocker7]

If it is, it should not be. It's a race full of people chasing rainbows with horses who have little to no chance of winning.

Most prestigious? On what grounds? If you only win the Kentucky Derby in a given year, and don't do much else, does anyone really remember your name next year? Not really...

So no...the Derby isn't the most prestigious race. It's one of the most if not the most popular races with the general public. But it's not the most prestigious.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Get. Real. Forget about the public. The Kentucky Derby is so far above everything else that the BC Classic is an afterthought in most owners' minds.

I doubt that you will ever get over your Chrome butthurt. But the fact remains, he has a resume that is better than any present American horse.

Cast around mightily for another one with a better year in 2014. (Why, weren't you the one that was proposing Untapable, and willing to give her a pass for being throttled by Bayern, yet not willing to do the same for CC in his first race back? Ha ha ha ha ha.)

Here's the bottom line: California Chrome ran the entire gauntlet of the premier races in America. His slate included all of the CLASSIC DISTANCES. His was not a 9f wonder that benefited from a weird running of the BCClassic. He was "there" in every single race, regardless of pace, regardless of conditions, regardless of the size of the field, regarldless of distance. He didn't have to benefit from a certain track condition in order to shine.

He's America's best horse at the moment. I know that it galls you because you misjudged him so awfully. But it is the truth.

[PaceAdvantage]

Cast around mightily for another one with a better year in 2014. (Why, weren't you the one that was proposing Untapable, and willing to give her a pass for being throttled by Bayern, yet not willing to do the same for CC in his first race back? Ha ha ha ha ha.)Untapable is a far more worthy HOY candidate than some of our present favorites...yours included.

And being throttled by Bayern apparently is a good thing, according to fans of CC, so I guess that counts as a positive as far as Untapable is concerned.

Untapable was a more consistent animal at the top of her division, and that's one of the things HOY is supposed to honor. If it weren't, then Favorite Trick would never have been voted HOY, to cite one example.

HOY is rarely about who is technically the fastest horse in the country...

I would also advise you to clean up your approach to the plate...

[PaceAdvantage]

He's America's best horse at the moment. I know that it galls you because you misjudged him so awfully. But it is the truth.I misjudged a horse who needed to drop to a field of five 3yo turf opponents at the end of the year, to win his first race since freakin' May?

I don't think so....

[classhandicapper]

Those horses you mention only look good when they race against each other. I stand by my assertion that the horses based in California are a VERY weak bunch on the turf. They don't just lose to Breeder's Cup horses.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the horses I mentioned.

IMO, Obviously is very good. He only missed by 2 lengths to Wise Dan and Animal Kingdom in 2012 and only lost 2 3/4 lengths to the Euros this year. His major problem is that he's not rateable. So sometimes he sets fast paces and can't overcome it. He's a solid Grade 1. He's just not BC quality.

Summer Front was a solid Grade 2 on the east. He went out there and couldn't beat those horses and then only lost 2 lengths in the BC Mile against the Euros this year.

There's a difference between Grade 1 and Breeder's Cup quality Grade 1. Wise Dan is BC quality. Obviously is not.

[Tom]

And being throttled by Bayern apparently is a good thing, according to fans of CC,

They drubbed each other. Bayern was demolished a couple of times, CC only once.

Untapable - never beat the boys, not a contender.

[Stillriledup]

They drubbed each other. Bayern was demolished a couple of times, CC only once.

Untapable - never beat the boys, not a contender.

When was CC "demolished"?

[raybo]

When was CC "demolished"?

Well, 6th by 7.25 lengths in an 8 horse field is not too good (Penn Derby).

CC = 11 of 16 ITM lifetime (9 of 16 wins lifetime, 5 of 9 this year)
Bayern = 8 of 10 ITM lifetime (7 of 10 wins lifetime, 7 of 10 this year)

[raybo]

Well, 6th by 7.25 lengths in an 8 horse field is not too good (Penn Derby).

CC = 11 of 16 ITM lifetime (9 of 16 wins lifetime, 5 of 9 this year)
Bayern = 8 of 10 ITM lifetime (7 of 10 wins lifetime, 7 of 10 this year)



Bayern was basically a 2 yo for half of this year.

Of all 10 races he has run, he only led by more than 1 length at either the first or 2nd call in 2 races. So, he has proved that he doesn't have to have a clear lead to win, which many seem to think about him. The fact that he was able to run slowish fractions in some of those wins is not his fault, and probably points to the fact that horses and jockeys just don't want to push the pace against him, they know they can't and still survive.

[mostpost]

Well, 6th by 7.25 lengths in an 8 horse field is not too good (Penn Derby).

CC = 11 of 16 ITM lifetime (9 of 16 wins lifetime, 5 of 9 this year)
Bayern = 8 of 10 ITM lifetime (7 of 10 wins lifetime, 7 of 10 this year)
Demolished.
Definition one: see Travers Chart
Definition two: see Preakness Chart.

[raybo]

Demolished.
Definition one: see Travers Chart
Definition two: see Preakness Chart.

No use getting into an argument with you, obviously. Horses do not always have their game, that happens to every horse I've ever heard of, especially horses who have only run 10 races lifetime, and always against older horses. His jockey obviously quit in one of those 2 races, not the horse, and in the other one he had a bad start and a very troubled trip, which will stop almost any horse.

[clocker7]

Bayern had exactly one decent race of classic distance. Most professionals and fans have doubts about the fairness, credibililty, and reliability of it. And in his only others, he flopped miserably.

Now, on the other hand, CC ... let's see ...

[Stillriledup]

Well, 6th by 7.25 lengths in an 8 horse field is not too good (Penn Derby).

CC = 11 of 16 ITM lifetime (9 of 16 wins lifetime, 5 of 9 this year)
Bayern = 8 of 10 ITM lifetime (7 of 10 wins lifetime, 7 of 10 this year)

Its only not too good if you just look at the charts and didnt actually see the race and take things into context.

[cj]

Its only not too good if you just look at the charts and didnt actually see the race and take things into context.

There was nothing good to see about that race from a CC standpoint.

[Tom]

Bayern was basically a 2 yo for half of this year.

Then make him 2yo HOY. :D

[Stillriledup]

There was nothing good to see about that race from a CC standpoint.

My point wasn't that he raced well or was BTL, it was that his trip was a "throwout line".

[Tom]

mostie.....
We agree.
Let me rethink this..... ;)

CC was trounced once, and that was after a layoff.
Bayern gets trounced when fit.

I say it is between theses two horse, but making Bayern out to far superior is ridiculous.

Could go either way. CC should have gone in the Clark.
Only thing for sure this year is older horses are out of it.

But....since the most important people don't get to vote, who gives rat's ass?

[raybo]

Then make him 2yo HOY. :D

That would be severely unfair to the other 2 yos. :lol:

[raybo]

mostie.....
We agree.
Let me rethink this..... ;)

CC was trounced once, and that was after a layoff.
Bayern gets trounced when fit.

I say it is between theses two horse, but making Bayern out to far superior is ridiculous.

Could go either way. CC should have gone in the Clark.
Only thing for sure this year is older horses are out of it.

But....since the most important people don't get to vote, who gives rat's ass?

LOL. I know your post was referencing a different poster, but, I'm not saying Bayern is "far superior" to CC, but when looking at the 2014 records (which is what the voters are supposed to base their decisions on), he had a better year than CC, and didn't have to run in a weak turf race after the BCC to accomplish that, he still had a better year than CC, regardless if CC won that weak turf race or not. And, he did beat CC, fair and square, in the race that supposedly "separates the men from the boys", the BCC (excuse the sexist sounding quote).

[cj]

My point wasn't that he raced well or was BTL, it was that his trip was a "throwout line".

There was nothing wrong with his trip IMO. What was so bad about it?

[Frost king]

Didn't Bayern beat the future Filly/Mare Champion in the Haskell, who happened to win the Breeder's Cup Distaff? So he not only beat the best of the Opposite sex, he beat all the older horses, the best three year olds in North America and the Champion from Dubai, which also beat all the older horses two races in a row. So now tell me again what did California Chrome beat? To be fair, Untapable, may have run in The Derby in the old days. We will never see a filly in this race again. It is a restricted three year old race for colts.

[raybo]

There was nothing wrong with his trip IMO. What was so bad about it?

I agree, if you're going to throw that race out, you might want to because Bayern broke the track record, and literally ran away from everybody else in the stretch, totally unfair! :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

There was nothing wrong with his trip IMO. What was so bad about it?

CC was pinned in the entire way, some horses get very uncomfortable in that trip, especially if they have a certain type of stride, cc is a horse who is used to being outside of horses, this is why Post 1 statistics at certain distances are not as good as post 4, post 5, etc. You would think Post 1 should be the best post since its the shortest distance between two points, but horses don't like to be pinned in.

Now, im not saying he was good enough to win, but if he gets outside and comfortable and gets his trip that he normally gets, he would have been closer, not to mention he wasn't in top form as this was his first start off the layoff.

[Frost king]

So what is the difference between Chrome getting a trip on the outside instead of the inside? Is it no different than Bayern getting an uncontested lead? It is the same, BOTH HORSES NEED THEIR TRIP TO WIN, otherwise they lose. Bayern gives everything he has to stay in front, and then he either gets his way and wins, or wears him self out and fades. Chrome wants to run, but has no where to go. Therefore when asked, he has nothing to give and grinds out a finish.

[raybo]

So what is the difference between Chrome getting a trip on the outside instead of the inside? Is it no different than Bayern getting an uncontested lead? It is the same, BOTH HORSES NEED THEIR TRIP TO WIN, otherwise they lose. Bayern gives everything he has to stay in front, and then he either gets his way and wins, or wears him self out and fades. Chrome wants to run, but has no where to go. Therefore when asked, he has nothing to give and grinds out a finish.

Bayern doesn't need the lead to win. He just happens to get it most of the time because he is faster out of the gate and faster to the first call. He doesn't need help, he makes his own. Now, if the others want to let him have it, so be it, but don't try and run with him as you will probably regret it.

[raybo]

CC was pinned in the entire way, some horses get very uncomfortable in that trip, especially if they have a certain type of stride, cc is a horse who is used to being outside of horses, this is why Post 1 statistics at certain distances are not as good as post 4, post 5, etc. You would think Post 1 should be the best post since its the shortest distance between two points, but horses don't like to be pinned in.

Now, im not saying he was good enough to win, but if he gets outside and comfortable and gets his trip that he normally gets, he would have been closer, not to mention he wasn't in top form as this was his first start off the layoff.

if you don't want to get pinned then get out front from the git-go or take the chance. He still could not beat Bayern, just like in the BCC.

[Tom]

No matter what happened in the Classic, the race was fair for the three top finishers. CC was not hindered in any way, and neither was Toast of NY.
Many think Moreno would have changed the pace set up, but I never though he would get the lead nor challenge Bayern at all - he was just not good enough and he was past his peak.

The only surprise for me was Bayern didn't die in the stretch.
He rwas the best horse that day....even though he cost me a life-changing exacta and trifecta and win bet....the dirty rotten, son of a ............!!!! :mad:

:lol:

[classhandicapper]

I know I tend to repeat myself, but sometimes I feel compelled to.

MANY of the major races run this year were contested over biased tracks. Some were so extreme, few would argue with that contention. Others were mild enough to be debatable, but IMO strong enough to impact the outcome between otherwise similar horses.

If you are analyzing CC and Bayern as a handicapper to determine who is actually better, you should feel compelled to look at the paces, trips, biases, strength of field, when in the year various figures were earned and how the horses developed later, where they were in their form cycle at various times etc...

On the latter point, Bayern had issues early in the year and was rushed back prematurely still trying to make the Derby. That could account for 1 or 2 of his early losses. He was not 100% yet.

CC got hurt in the Belmont, was laid off to heal and recover from the tough campaign, and then rushed back to PARX trying to get fit for the Classic. With a clean trip in the Belmont he might have won and not had to be rushed back to PARX to run while still less than 100%.

IMO all these things have to be considered when comparing them as horses.

If you are evaluating accomplishments, you should ignore all that stuff and just looks at Grade 1 wins, prestige of races won, head to head, and stuff like that.

I don't think it's fair to mix and match where it suits you.

[ReplayRandall]

I know I tend to repeat myself, but sometimes I feel compelled to.

MANY of the major races run this year were contested over biased tracks. Some were so extreme, few would argue with that contention. Others were mild enough to be debatable, but IMO strong enough to impact the outcome between otherwise similar horses.

If you are analyzing CC and Bayern as a handicapper to determine who is actually better, you should feel compelled to look at the paces, trips, biases, strength of field, when in the year various figures were earned and how the horses developed later, where they were in their form cycle at various times etc...

On the latter point, Bayern had issues early in the year and was rushed back prematurely still trying to make the Derby. That could account for 1 or 2 of his early losses. He was not 100% yet.

CC got hurt in the Belmont, was laid off to heal and recover from the tough campaign, and then rushed back to PARX trying to get fit for the Classic. With a clean trip in the Belmont he might have won and not had to be rushed back to PARX to run while still less than 100%.

If you are evaluating accomplishments, you should ignore all that stuff and just looks at Grade 1 wins, prestige of races won, head to head, and stuff like that.

I don't think it's fair to mix and match where it suits you.


On a side note, ask any handicapper who won this year's Belmont.........answer doesn't come quickly, does it? Now ask who beat Smarty Jones in the Belmont....no problem, it was Birdstone. The 2014 Belmont winner, by the way, was Tonalist.........doesn't say much for this year's crop of 3 year olds.

[Cratos]

On a side note, ask any handicapper who won this year's Belmont.........answer doesn't come quickly, does it? Now ask who beat Smarty Jones in the Belmont....no problem, it was Birdstone. The 2014 Belmont winner, by the way, was Tonalist.........doesn't say much for this year's crop of 3 year olds.
I have no idea what you are implying, but Tonalist win in the Belmont was legitimate as they come; Tonalist and Belmont go together .

On this forum prior to the Belmont I picked Tonalist and along with winning with Shug's horse earlier that day, I had quite a few "wooden nickels" when I left Belmont Park.

Incidentally, I don't believe there are many horses in training today that would beat Tonalist at Belmont Park in a route.

[ReplayRandall]

I have no idea what you are implying, but Tonalist win in the Belmont was legitimate as they come; Tonalist and Belmont go together .

On this forum prior to the Belmont I picked Tonalist and along with winning with Shug's horse earlier that day, I had quite a few "wooden nickels" when I left Belmont Park.

Incidentally, I don't believe there are many horses in training today that would beat Tonalist at Belmont Park in a route.

I agree, Tonalist is a superior horse for the Belmont course, but is not in discussion for HOY because he is a "Belmont only" horse. You had a vested interest in the Belmont, and therefore immediately recalled the winner's name, others would have had a harder time recalling Tonalist. My point, for others who might have read this post, is that it's hard to make a case for this year's 3 year old crop as anything other than just ordinary.

[classhandicapper]

My point, for others who might have read this post, is that it's hard to make a case for this year's 3 year old crop as anything other than just ordinary.

I'm not making the case that they are great, but what exactly could they have done to convince you they are very good.

Tonalist won the JCGC, 3yos were 1,2,3 in the Classic, and they just made shambles of the Clark.

You can argue that the older horses suck, but by what standard?

Is it because they keep getting beat by the 3YOs?

That's a circular argument.

My guess is that for most people this comes down to figures. The problem there is that your evaluation will depend on whose figures you are using and whether they've been shrinking or expanding over time. I think the older horses were on the weak side and the 3yos are quite good, but I am using a personal qualitative standard.

[ReplayRandall]

I'm not making the case that they are great, but what exactly could they have done to convince you they are very good.

Tonalist won the JCGC, 3yos were 1,2,3 in the Classic, and they just made shambles of the Clark.

You can argue that the older horses suck, but by what standard?

Is it because they keep getting beat by the 3YOs?

That's a circular argument.

My guess is that for most people this comes down to figures. The problem there is that your evaluation will depend on whose figures you are using and whether they've been shrinking or expanding over time. I think the older horses were on the weak side and the 3yos are quite good, but I am using a personal qualitative standard.


The last line of your post is all relative. Against this year's older horses, who performed on the "weak side", ANY group of 3yos would "appear" to look good, yet the figures, numbers, times, etc., still look just ordinary to me. I believe this crop will be forgotten quickly......

[raybo]

[/b]


The last line of your post is all relative. Against this year's older horses, who performed on the "weak side", ANY group of 3yos would "appear" to look good, yet the figures, numbers, times, etc., still look just ordinary to me. I believe this crop will be forgotten quickly......

What are you looking for, 130 TFUS figures? High 1-teens and low 120s is not just ordinary.

[ReplayRandall]

What are you looking for, 130 TFUS figures? High 1-teens and low 120s is not just ordinary.

How many 3yos broke existing 3yos Stakes or track records....or even came close?

[classhandicapper]

[/b]


The last line of your post is all relative. Against this year's older horses, who performed on the "weak side", ANY group of 3yos would "appear" to look good, yet the figures, numbers, times, etc., still look just ordinary to me. I believe this crop will be forgotten quickly......

OK. Your standard is figures and times. That's what I was getting at. Not being critical. I just don't trust figure comparisons from generation to generation. Doesn't mean my view on the 3yos is right, but I think they are quite good.

[raybo]

How many 3yos broke existing 3yos Stakes or track records....or even came close?

Bayern broke the track record in the Pa Derby, I think it had stood for about 40 years.

[ReplayRandall]

OK. So your standard is figures.

That's what I was getting at. I don't trust figure comparisons from generation to generation.


Do you realize what close brushes we had in the last 20 years with horses that could have been the great ones, but succumbed to infirmities or death? There are many but try just these three, Eskendereya, Uncle Mo and Grand Canyon.........I see nothing that remotely resembles any one of these three in this years crop.

[raybo]

OK. Your standard is figures and times. That's what I was getting at. Not being critical. I just don't trust figure comparisons from generation to generation. Doesn't mean my view on the 3yos is right, but I think they are quite good.

I agree. You must compare figures in the same time periods. Today's figures are much better adjusted, to include biases and advantaged/disadvantaged pace scenarios, etc.. In the past, not so much.

If today's were not adjusted as they are, we would be seeing 130s and 140s, I'm pretty sure. CJ could answer that better than me though.

[cj]

How many 3yos broke existing 3yos Stakes or track records....or even came close?

Dirt tracks are not as fast as they once were for horse safety.

[raybo]

Dirt tracks are not as fast as they once were for horse safety.

Except SA, LOL!

[ReplayRandall]

Dirt tracks are not as fast as they once were for horse safety.


I saw a fast, speed biased track at Santa Anita in the BC Classic......didn't you?

[cj]

I saw a fast, speed biased track at Santa Anita in the BC Classic......didn't you?

I didn't think the track was particularly speed biased to be honest, but it was fast. But, fast today is not the same as fast in 1975, tracks have a lot more cushion. Superfast tracks these days are usually moisture related in my opinion.

[raybo]

I saw a fast, speed biased track at Santa Anita in the BC Classic......didn't you?

Not particularly, but SA is always fast, and has always been so. You can expect SA to be fast almost every day, for the past decades. Not a fair comparison. But, generally tracks are slower today than they were in the past.

A fast track is also fast for every horse, not just the front runners.

[ReplayRandall]

I didn't think the track was particularly speed biased to be honest, but it was fast. But, fast today is not the same as fast in 1975, tracks have a lot more cushion. Superfast tracks these days are usually moisture related in my opinion.

In 1975, how old were you......5? You were a horse racing, figure producing prodigy from the get-go, huh CJ?

[cj]

In 1975, how old were you......5? You were a horse racing, figure producing prodigy from the get-go, huh CJ?

I've done research. The information is out there. Are you really saying you can't know about something because of your age, or even if you were alive?

I know about the Revolutionary War too.

[ReplayRandall]

I've done research. The information is out there. Are you really saying you can't know about something because of your age, or even if you were alive?

I know about the Revolutionary War too.


I'm just kidding with you CJ, and I'm also one of your customers.......:cool:

[raybo]

In 1975, how old were you......5? You were a horse racing, figure producing prodigy from the get-go, huh CJ?

Geez dude. I was 26 in '75. How old were you?

[ReplayRandall]

Geez dude. I was 26 in '75. How old were you?


Not as old as you Gramps......:cool:

[cj]

I'm just kidding with you CJ, and I'm also one of your customers.......:cool:

I know, I'm joking too, just hesitant to use emoticons. I've pulled the trigger a few times lately though, so watch out!

[ReplayRandall]

I know, I'm joking too, just hesitant to use emoticons. I've pulled the trigger a few times lately though, so watch out!


I now hesitate to use the term "precious" because of you.......so I won't...:cool:

[Cratos]

I saw a fast, speed biased track at Santa Anita in the BC Classic......didn't you?

A racetrack is a static entity; its surface (dirt, poly, or turf) is neither “fast” or “slow”, it is speed resistance depending on the coefficient of friction between the metal shoes on the horses’; moisture of the surface can change that dynamic up to 15%.

[raybo]

A racetrack is a static entity; its surface (dirt, poly, or turf) is neither “fast” or “slow”, it is speed resistance depending on the coefficient of friction between the metal shoes on the horses’; moisture of the surface can change that dynamic up to 15%.

Cratos, we're not idiots here, we know about coefficients of friction, but we choose to call tracks fast, average, or slow. It expresses the same logic. And, by the way, tracks are NOT static entities, they vary in coefficients of friction (speed favoring or non-speed favoring) daily, and sometimes even between races on the same card. Please stop correcting racing terminologies that have been used, commonly and effectively, for decades.

[Cratos]

Cratos, we're not idiots here, we know about coefficients of friction, but we choose to call tracks fast, average, or slow. It expresses the same logic. And, by the way, tracks are NOT static entities, they vary in coefficients of friction (speed favoring or non-speed favoring) daily, and sometimes even between races on the same card. Please stop correcting racing terminologies that have been used, commonly and effectively, for decades.
First of all there wasn't an inference or impllication that you or any other poster on this forum is an idiot.

Nothing I detest more than is embedded sarcasm. To use "we" as to say your words are all inclusive and you are speaking for the entire forum is beyond my comprehension.

I like to believe that posters are allowed to post a difference of opinion/idea as long as they are not being insulting or derogatory

Now a racetrack is "static" because it is a physical entity without force to put it in motion (physics 101)

The coefficient of friction has no units.

If we stay with the same things , our future is here today and I like to believe that someone got an understanding of why a racetrack is static from my post and appreciated.

Until the administrator/moderators state that only "Raybo" type posts are allowed or you have the right to decide post content, I will continue to post as I have for the last 10 years

[raybo]

First of all there wasn't an inference or impllication that you or any other poster on this forum is an idiot.

Nothing I detest more than is embedded sarcasm. To use "we" as to say your words are all inclusive and you are speaking for the entire forum is beyond my comprehension.

I like to believe that posters are allowed to post a difference of opinion/idea as long as they are not being insulting or derogatory

Now a racetrack is "static" because it is a physical entity without force to put it in motion (physics 101)

The coefficient of friction has no units.

If we stay with the same things , our future is here today and I like to believe that someone got an understanding of why a racetrack is static from my post and appreciated.

Until the administrator/moderators state that only "Raybo" type posts are allowed or you have the right to decide post content, I will continue to post as I have for the last 10 years

"Static" has more than one definition, believe it or not, and one of them is:

3 : showing little change

And, did I state that coefficients of friction have units? No.

Your posts, almost constantly revolve around your mathematical/scientific differentiations between "racing" terminology, which have been accepted, and understood by horse players for decades, and your favorite formal definitions. Your constant insistence on correcting everyone's commonly used racing terminology invariably leads to, as you must by now have realized, otherwise unnecessary sidetracks to the topic of conversation.

[whodoyoulike]

First of all there wasn't an inference or impllication that you or any other poster on this forum is an idiot...


I believe the pc term which I refer to myself is idiot savant.