Police placed in no win situation in this case (in Ohio)

[iceknight]

I usually post commenting on excessive force by police, but in this case, based on preliminary facts, I feel that their actions were correct.

I disagree with the more widespread opinion on that site and the comments there.

I do not agree with the wordings/phrases used by Huffpost in this case.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/23/police-shooting-toy-gun-cleveland_n_6207776.html

A 12 yr old is old enough to understand that "hands up" means, and should not be reaching for a gun in the waistband. When someone is reaching for a gun after a warning, the cop don't have time to think. I feel sorry for the officer in this case. The "child" was clearly waving the gun (without the orange cap) at people. That in itself is a serious threat.

For some precedence of 12 yr olds with guns, google "Nevada school shooting raises potential of parents' liability: police" October 2013.

[Robert Goren]

Does the second amendment apply to toy guns?

[ReplayRandall]

Does the second amendment apply to toy guns?


What purpose does a toy gun serve society, specifically our children, in a positive way?

[Marshall Bennett]

What purpose does a toy gun serve society, specifically our children, in a positive way?
What purpose do dolls have with little girls growing up?
It's all part of growing up. They're not hurting anyone.
Perhaps you'd prefer locking kids in a closet till their 18. Safest bet yet. :)

[snickster]

What purpose does a toy gun serve society, specifically our children, in a positive way?

Hey you clueless communist liberal, what makes you think that everyone is born as a slave to serve society.

[ReplayRandall]

What purpose do dolls have with little girls growing up?
It's all part of growing up. They're not hurting anyone.
Perhaps you'd prefer locking kids in a closet till their 18. Safest bet yet. :)

From time to time you make a lot of sense MB......but not this time.


BTW, point a doll at a cop and you'll get shot, right? Makes no sense, just like your post......

[ReplayRandall]

Hey you clueless communist liberal, what makes you think that everyone is born as a slave to serve society.


Your post is either Sarcasm or simply beyond asinine.......

[JustRalph]

Been in those shoes a couple of times

I didn't fire. I retreated.

It's a tough place to be

[Marshall Bennett]

From time to time you make a lot of sense MB......but not this time.


BTW, point a doll at a cop and you'll get shot, right? Makes no sense, just like your post......
My point is, kids need their toys. A toy gun can be constructed out of some cardboard in about 5 minutes. Banning toy guns doesn't solve anything.

[iceknight]

Unfortunately, the one time I post something justifying police action in the use of deadly force, it seems a lot different once a surveillance video comes out. I am not sure why it makes sense to drive RIGHT up to the threat, if you are so afraid of a person that is carrying the gun, that you have to shoot him as soon as you are exiting the squad car. are police car windows made of kevlar now?

Video: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html)


There is a contrasting video of a different case on how MI police handled a case of someone with a gun on the street (he wasnt pointing though). But this guy was given a chance to explain himself.
http://www.mlive.com/opinion/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/video_brings_new_added_level_o.html

[Robert Fischer]

Unfortunately, the one time I post something justifying police action in the use of deadly force, it seems a lot different once a surveillance video comes out. I am not sure why it makes sense to drive RIGHT up to the threat, if you are so afraid of a person that is carrying the gun, that you have to shoot him as soon as you are exiting the squad car. are police car windows made of kevlar now?

Video: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html)

More than that, when did all those alleged "hands up!" commands take place?

An auctioneer couldn't have given a command that quickly.

The info is all in the hands of the police.

supposedly the police were not given all the info from the 911 call...

supposedly the boy reached for his pistol after being told to raise his hands...

[Robert Fischer]

police need some power in order for the system to work.

but there has to be common sense.

if the story is "boy reached for his pistol after being told to raise his hands",

and then the video contradicts it

Then it's OK to at least investigate to reach a clarification.

This isn't "teams" it's not "liberal vs. conservative" it's not "black vs. white" it's not "proletariat vs. borgousfidoasse or whatever the ****"

we aren't sheep
we aren't 'commited' to teams where we have to keep coming up with new reasons to justify our 'stance'

supposed to be some free thinking

[Tom]

Then it's OK to at least investigate to reach a clarification.
Only if the result is what Black Community wants it to be.
Otherwise, investigations are rigged.
I saw that on TV recently.

[Robert Fischer]

Only if the result is what Black Community wants it to be.
Otherwise, investigations are rigged.
I saw that on TV recently.

yes. both sides in these special-interest movements are crazy, and notorious for abusing the media by using it for emotional power and distorting any facts.

Black, white, etc... citizens should have public access to the police-worn-cam and dash cam film /audio, and the 911 dispatch recording, and other pertinent info.
And if something doesn't seem to be aligned with the report, then there should be a public explanation, and the rulings should be clear.

It's never easy.
Even in a case like the one in this thread - I'd guess that the officers honestly believed they did the right thing. I don't think they lied (at least not intentionally).
It's how our brains work.

[Tom]

Tough to second guess a cop who has to make a split second decision.
The kids parents had plenty of time to guess that arming their kid with a toy gun that looks real. Any idiot can have children.

[iceknight]

I'd guess that the officers honestly believed they did the right thing. I don't think they lied (at least not intentionally).
It's how our brains work. I disagree. Guess what we keep hearing (and I didn't add this in the initial update post) - officers are also human! It is human tendency to lie when caught doing something wrong. "I was just going at 65 officer".

Officers like those in Dallas police shooting of a mentally ill man, lied first and then they were caught once the surveillance of the shooting came out. The new policy in many police depts because of that is to wait (72 hrs) to make any report till other surveillance video emerges, so that they can then tailor the story.

Police folks routinely lie, but it comes out only on some occasions. I am not saying they lie all the time, but they lie in enough cases easily. What happened in the Sean Bell case in ny? Not only did the police manufacture stories of another person, they also claimed that shots were fired but ballistic evidence proved them otherwise. In the end it came down to

Further, detectives routinely manufacture dirt on people to strengthen their case, they take help from other criminals to help their case. In some cases that may be beneficial to the society in the long run, but they do that more to protect their own actions in many cases.

All I am saying, don't be believing the establishment's line too easily - they are not here to protect you- they are here to fill their pockets first, protect themselves next and then help the innocent in the society .

As for Tom's comments, you forgot to add the other usual points apart from the usual split second decision.

--they put their lives on line "every day"
--get a badge yourself and find out how hard it is.

The whole point is that the cop actually made a stupid decision by driving right up to a "gunman". What if they had both been shot by this person - would they have saved anybody?

They were just arrogant and knew they were secure and then decided to fire at any excuse anyway. No it is NOT hard to second guess this after watching the video. Notice that when I started this thread, I had some ounce of healthy respect for the police involved in this case. once you see the video -which you have, but are in denial - then you know what is right and what is wrong.

[JustRalph]

Black, white, etc... citizens should have public access to the police-worn-cam and dash cam film /audio, and the 911 dispatch recording, and other pertinent info.

All of those things are public access. Often there is a delay while initial investigations are conducted, but anybody can get every bit of what you ask.

You might have to pay for the materials to reproduce the info, but in today's world that's pretty cheap. News outlets often are the first to pay up, and first to get it.

I worked a train vs car wreck with multiple fatalities back in the early 90's. It was all real 35mm film pics and Xerox copier stuff. Hundreds of pages. To obtain a copy of the entire report cost $3900 bucks. Today that same scenario is probably a couple hundred bucks.

[davew]

Tough to second guess a cop who has to make a split second decision.
The kids parents had plenty of time to guess that arming their kid with a toy gun that looks real. Any idiot can have children.



... and not teaching anything about gun safety, such as never point at another person - even pellet guns can take out an eye.

[Tom]

As for Tom's comments, you forgot to add the other usual points apart from the usual split second decision.

--they put their lives on line "every day"
--get a badge yourself and find out how hard it is.

You certainly prove the point with that attitude.

[iceknight]

You certainly prove the point with that attitude. The numbers tell a different story.

[Tom]

Numbers tell no stories.

[onefast99]

Unfortunately, the one time I post something justifying police action in the use of deadly force, it seems a lot different once a surveillance video comes out. I am not sure why it makes sense to drive RIGHT up to the threat, if you are so afraid of a person that is carrying the gun, that you have to shoot him as soon as you are exiting the squad car. are police car windows made of kevlar now?

Video: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shot_1.html)


There is a contrasting video of a different case on how MI police handled a case of someone with a gun on the street (he wasnt pointing though). But this guy was given a chance to explain himself.
http://www.mlive.com/opinion/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/video_brings_new_added_level_o.html
Didn't you hear what actually HAPPENED, the dispatcher never told the officers the gun may be a fake per the caller who said the kid was waving it at everyone and it is possibly a "fake" gun. The dispatcher made a huge error there.

[Tom]

A cop comes onto a person waving a gun, you shoot.

The cops first mission is to protect the public.
His second is to come home safe.
Worrying about people waving guns in public is far down the list.

Where are the outcries from the left to outlaw toy guns that look real?
I support that 100%. Because it is a given too many kids and too many parent are idiots. I am not so concerned with the kid getting shot as I am with the cop having to live with it. I chalk it up to natural selection for the kid.

[JustRalph]

Didn't you hear what actually HAPPENED, the dispatcher never told the officers the gun may be a fake per the caller who said the kid was waving it at everyone and it is possibly a "fake" gun. The dispatcher made a huge error there.

Possibly, but I'm not sold,.

[onefast99]

Possibly, but I'm not sold,.
If the dispatcher told the officers the gun maybe fake wouldn't they have approached the situation a bit differently?

[JustRalph]

If the dispatcher told the officers the gun maybe fake wouldn't they have approached the situation a bit differently?

There's two schools of thought. Having been in both spots, I would have relayed the message. But there is a school of thought, that a gun is a gun is a gun. Never make any assumption.

I'm surprised that they took the shot so fast. Then again, I was an old school cop with lots of military training on cover and concealment. I would have never been that close etc. I would have challenged him from cover, even if it was just my car.

I criticize cops for acting just like these guys did. They act like they are on a clock. Why hurry. But then again, I haven't been on the street since summer of 95. I don't think things have changed when it comes to patrol tactics, but maybe I'm wrong.

[TJDave]

How big was this kid? It wouldn't be easy for the typical 12-year-old to single-handed be 'waving about' a real loaded gun like the one pictured.

[iceknight]

JR, thank you for your views on this. Thanks for the voice of reason.
--------------
Separately, stereotypes without basis place an undue burden on people who are negatively stereotyped.

Anyhow he is an article by a white guy and retired Air force colonel who has fought in wars.. so I guess he is not on welfare or a commie or whatever other usual insults that can be thrown by the usual suspects on this board.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.VHpjgY_tOPJ

[iceknight]

So if this goes to trial.. there will be some transparency..
whether the accusation holds good or not. Either way, a closed doors settlement would SUCK but even a civil trial with evidence presented and cross examination would be awesome - for truth!

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/30/us/cleveland-police-lawsuit/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

----- But apart from their lawsuit -- these are my thoughts.

The incident cited in the suit began when officers saw a car speeding and heard what they thought was a gunshot directed towards them.
"so they "thought" they heard shots- they then chased and KILLED two people. They found NO weapon. And I am pretty damn sure, unless there was a river on their route, they could have searched the entire darned 25 min route for a weapon and found one - in the 45 day cooling period with the use of metal detectors etc.
Instead of admitting their fault, these guys are suing? WTF justice. This is just an attention seeking suit timed for more controversy. IMO.