Will Cavs deal Dion Waiters post-12/15?

[lansdale]

Would be my choice.

[onefast99]

I think they will keep him it is taking a while for these players to learn LJ's system none were as experienced as Bosh and Wade.

[lansdale]

I think they will keep him it is taking a while for these players to learn LJ's system none were as experienced as Bosh and Wade.

Hi onefast99,

Don't know if your a Cleveland fan or an NBA fan, but I tend to think what you say is true, while believing that it will hurt them. From what I read, LBJ has his back, so we'll see.

No question it will take this team to take a few months to jell, as with the Heat, as you say. But it seems to me that their lack of skilled defenders is a problem that won't easily be solved by time. Except for LBJ (who isn't playing much D at this point in the season) they have no great defenders on this team from what I see - I think this issue is really on the front office. Irving and Waiters are truly pathetic in this respect - probably the worst defensive backcourt in the league. But Waiters also seems to be a player who needs alot more shots to be happy - understandable with a young player, but not going to happen on this team. Might be better off with a team where he woud be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

Regardless, I see rumored packages of him or other players with the Cavs high draft picks for various defensive players. Maybe Waiters will stay but I think eventually they'll end up doing a deal for some defense.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Robert Fischer]

Good question Lansdale.

Will be interesting to see if this team improves.

As a distant observer of some of the statistics and a few videos, I notice that Kevin Love's production has fallen dramatically (perhaps indicating that chemistry for Cleveland's big 3 is not where it needs to be).

They really need to be highly productive on offense, given their defensive weakness.

[lansdale]

Good question Lansdale.

Will be interesting to see if this team improves.

As a distant observer of some of the statistics and a few videos, I notice that Kevin Love's production has fallen dramatically (perhaps indicating that chemistry for Cleveland's big 3 is not where it needs to be).

They really need to be highly productive on offense, given their defensive weakness.

Hi RF,

I think there's no question the team will improve - they've only been playing together for a few weeks. As they get to know each other's game, what everybody's favorite spots are, the mistakes will decline and scoring will certainly improve. As far as Love's game, the main difference is that he's getting fewer touches and thus taking fewer shots - 13 fga compared with 18 fga last year. He still playing well - 16.5 pts., 10 rb per game. His efficiency is almost identical with LBJ's - 1.27 pts. per fga for Love, 1.30 for LBJ. But LBJ is averaging almost 19 fga. Strangely, the area where he and LBJ have dropped most clearly is 2P%. As far as I can tell, this is related to getting used to the difficulties of playing in the post with new teammates. The one who has benefitted most from the situation is Kyrie, whose efficiency has increased, as defenders can't double him as easily with more high-scoring teammates on court.

The situation for the Cav Big 3 is exactly similar to that of the Celts and Heat in recent years - guys who were 'The Man' on previous teams will inevitably be posting lower numbers in order to blend as teammates. They're now averaging 62 pts. per game, probably will get that up to around 70 or more as the season progresses. But I think the key question for the team is whether they'll pick it up on D or look to make some kind of deal for capable defenders. I'm guessing the latter.

Cheers,

lansdale

[ronsmac]

Hi RF,

I think there's no question the team will improve - they've only been playing together for a few weeks. As they get to know each other's game, what everybody's favorite spots are, the mistakes will decline and scoring will certainly improve. As far as Love's game, the main difference is that he's getting fewer touches and thus taking fewer shots - 13 fga compared with 18 fga last year. He still playing well - 16.5 pts., 10 rb per game. His efficiency is almost identical with LBJ's - 1.27 pts. per fga for Love, 1.30 for LBJ. But LBJ is averaging almost 19 fga. Strangely, the area where he and LBJ have dropped most clearly is 2P%. As far as I can tell, this is related to getting used to the difficulties of playing in the post with new teammates. The one who has benefitted most from the situation is Kyrie, whose efficiency has increased, as defenders can't double him as easily with more high-scoring teammates on court. The numbers don't show Loves ineptness so far. He's lost weight and been bullied badly down low. Teams are really going at him. Offensively he hasn't been able to maintain position when he tries to post, and is inching further and further away from the basket. I do like that he's only taken one 3pt shot tonight. I'm hoping he and the whole team get better with time.

The situation for the Cav Big 3 is exactly similar to that of the Celts and Heat in recent years - guys who were 'The Man' on previous teams will inevitably be posting lower numbers in order to blend as teammates. They're now averaging 62 pts. per game, probably will get that up to around 70 or more as the season progresses. But I think the key question for the team is whether they'll pick it up on D or look to make some kind of deal for capable defenders. I'm guessing the latter.

Cheers,

lansdaleThe numbers don't show Loves ineptness so far. He's lost weight and been bullied badly down low. Teams are really going at him. Offensively he hasn't been able to maintain position when he tries to post, and is inching further and further away from the basket. I do like that he's only taken one 3pt shot tonight. I'm hoping he and the whole team get better with time.

[onefast99]

Hi onefast99,

Don't know if your a Cleveland fan or an NBA fan, but I tend to think what you say is true, while believing that it will hurt them. From what I read, LBJ has his back, so we'll see.

No question it will take this team to take a few months to jell, as with the Heat, as you say. But it seems to me that their lack of skilled defenders is a problem that won't easily be solved by time. Except for LBJ (who isn't playing much D at this point in the season) they have no great defenders on this team from what I see - I think this issue is really on the front office. Irving and Waiters are truly pathetic in this respect - probably the worst defensive backcourt in the league. But Waiters also seems to be a player who needs alot more shots to be happy - understandable with a young player, but not going to happen on this team. Might be better off with a team where he woud be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

Regardless, I see rumored packages of him or other players with the Cavs high draft picks for various defensive players. Maybe Waiters will stay but I think eventually they'll end up doing a deal for some defense.

Cheers,

lansdale
I happen to like the Cavs, DW was a solid 6th man for SU(78 alum)he started to show signs of being a talent the second half of his final year at SU he will help the Cavs once the offensive flow doesn't include a lot of showboating and the defense shows up.

[lansdale]

The numbers don't show Loves ineptness so far. He's lost weight and been bullied badly down low. Teams are really going at him. Offensively he hasn't been able to maintain position when he tries to post, and is inching further and further away from the basket. I do like that he's only taken one 3pt shot tonight. I'm hoping he and the whole team get better with time.

I've watched a few Cavs games and Love's play, including his post play, seems no different than before, but he is getting the ball less. Absolutely no evidence for the notion that he's getting 'bullied' in the post, which rests on the common, but completely bogus assumption that skillful post offense is about physical strength. Charles Oakley, one of the strongest and toughest players in NBA history was completely useless as a post scorer. Kevin McHale, a player with extremely neglible physical strength was one of the greatest post scorers in NBA history.

Why do you think Love should fewer threes? That's the most important part of his offense. And his current average of .361 is identical with his career average.

[lansdale]

I happen to like the Cavs, DW was a solid 6th man for SU(78 alum)he started to show signs of being a talent the second half of his final year at SU he will help the Cavs once the offensive flow doesn't include a lot of showboating and the defense shows up.

I agree that Waiters has talent, but almost entirely as a scorer, which becomes a problem when he's on a team overloaded with offensive talent, including HOF level scorers. His brief pro career shows him to be competely useless as a defensive player, and his WS 48 of .03 indicates that, overall, he has less value than the average NBA player. The Cavs need at least one guard who can check high-level 1s and 2s, and right now they don't have one. To most objective observers, Waiters and Haywood look like the most likely candidates for departure. But if the team starts playing better D, and he can stop whining about his minutes, he may have greater longevity in Cleveland.

[lansdale]

Would be my choice.

NBA trading season opens next week. Interesting to see if this deal goes down as predicted. Koufos, 7', good rebounder, shot-blocker, all-around defender (97 per 100) is exactly what Cavs need. OTOH, Grizz could use more scoring, a la Waiters. Still speculation - we'll see.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/235799/Cavs-Interested-In-Kosta-Koufos-Willing-To-Deal-Dion-Waiters-For-Difference-Maker

[ronsmac]

I've watched a few Cavs games and Love's play, including his post play, seems no different than before, but he is getting the ball less. Absolutely no evidence for the notion that he's getting 'bullied' in the post, which rests on the common, but completely bogus assumption that skillful post offense is about physical strength. Charles Oakley, one of the strongest and toughest players in NBA history was completely useless as a post scorer. Kevin McHale, a player with extremely neglible physical strength was one of the greatest post scorers in NBA history.

Why do you think Love should fewer threes? That's the most important part of his offense. And his current average of .361 is identical with his career average.
Oakley could barely dunk, Mchale had some of the longest arms in the game, plus a great up and under move.

[lansdale]

Oakley could barely dunk, Mchale had some of the longest arms in the game, plus a great up and under move.

No sure what your point is here - if it's that anatomy is destiny the NBA - true only to a limited degree. Great post play is much more complex than you seem to believe. Kevin Love's 3-pt. shooting is going to put him in the HOF, not his post-game, which although above average, will never be more than that.

[ronsmac]

No sure what your point is here - if it's that anatomy is destiny the NBA - true only to a limited degree. Great post play is much more complex than you seem to believe. Kevin Love's 3-pt. shooting is going to put him in the HOF, not his post-game, which although above average, will never be more than that.There's a lot of different factors that go into post play and any athletic endeavor. Oakley sucked as a post player and as an offensive threat in General , though he occasionally hit the 15ft jumper. McHale had an array ok moves plus the length to finish.

[Robert Fischer]

Yea, McHale had a serious tool-set in the post. He also had Larry Bird.
Bird is nowhere near as talented physically as LeBron, but among small forwards, I have Bird up there w/ LeBron in terms of winning.

I can't remember Oakley's 'game' (or lack thereof) as well, but he was a consummate role-player.
You see a team like the Cavs with 3 all-stars, and when one of the other guys is willing to be like Charles Oakley and do the ugly stuff, it helps balance things out. And you didn't want to go up soft in the lane anywhere near Oakley when the Knicks had a foul to give. :D

[lansdale]

Would be my choice.

This deal finally went down, but not in any way that I can see benefitting the Cavs much. Smith is just an older, crankier Waiters, and Shumpert is almost equally marginal, but might be able to be goaded by LBJ into playing some perimeter D. Why OKC would want the knuckle-headed Waiters is beyond me. OKC is loaded with talented players - what they need is better coaching and decision-making as tonight's game vs. Dubs demonstrates. Seems like PJax actually might have come out of this deal in the best shape - dumping Smith's contract while possibly picking up a decent 1st round pick.

The Cavs are said to still be pursuing Mozgov, who would be a huge plus for them, but seems out of reach, given what they have to offer. It seems clearer than ever that the organization is largely at fault for the team's essential problems - complete lack of players who can play D (except for LBJ when motivated) and non-existent bench. The biggest surprise to me about this team is the hype surrounding Irving, who I had not previously seen much. Now that that LBJ's presence has brought major media attention to bear on the Cav PG, it's become very clear that he's not cut out to lead a team to a title: he's a talented scorer, but very low IQ, and only semi-motivated.

I believe that if the Cavs can still get a shot-blocker (doubtful) they can still get to the conference final - but not win it. They also really need a better (smarter) PG.

[onefast99]

This deal finally went down, but not in any way that I can see benefitting the Cavs much. Smith is just an older, crankier Waiters, and Shumpert is almost equally marginal, but might be able to be goaded by LBJ into playing some perimeter D. Why OKC would want the knuckle-headed Waiters is beyond me. OKC is loaded with talented players - what they need is better coaching and decision-making as tonight's game vs. Dubs demonstrates. Seems like PJax actually might have come out of this deal in the best shape - dumping Smith's contract while possibly picking up a decent 1st round pick.

The Cavs are said to still be pursuing Mozgov, who would be a huge plus for them, but seems out of reach, given what they have to offer. It seems clearer than ever that the organization is largely at fault for the team's essential problems - complete lack of players who can play D (except for LBJ when motivated) and non-existent bench. The biggest surprise to me about this team is the hype surrounding Irving, who I had not previously seen much. Now that that LBJ's presence has brought major media attention to bear on the Cav PG, it's become very clear that he's not cut out to lead a team to a title: he's a talented scorer, but very low IQ, and only semi-motivated.

I believe that if the Cavs can still get a shot-blocker (doubtful) they can still get to the conference final - but not win it. They also really need a better (smarter) PG.
The current offensive structure in Cleveland is one that features LBJ, Love and Irving when the ball isn't going into the hoop for anyone of those 3 there is little offensive threat from anyone else. The Cavs need another offensive go to guy, that may have been delivered in the form of Shumpert he can create, something DW didn't do. JR may also add to this interesting mix on the offensive side of the ball but based on his confidence level at this point in the season I wouldn't bet on him becoming that go to guy. Cavs will eventually figure this all out hopefully before the playoffs begin.

[lansdale]

This deal finally went down, but not in any way that I can see benefitting the Cavs much. Smith is just an older, crankier Waiters, and Shumpert is almost equally marginal, but might be able to be goaded by LBJ into playing some perimeter D. Why OKC would want the knuckle-headed Waiters is beyond me. OKC is loaded with talented players - what they need is better coaching and decision-making as tonight's game vs. Dubs demonstrates. Seems like PJax actually might have come out of this deal in the best shape - dumping Smith's contract while possibly picking up a decent 1st round pick.

The Cavs are said to still be pursuing Mozgov, who would be a huge plus for them, but seems out of reach, given what they have to offer. It seems clearer than ever that the organization is largely at fault for the team's essential problems - complete lack of players who can play D (except for LBJ when motivated) and non-existent bench. The biggest surprise to me about this team is the hype surrounding Irving, who I had not previously seen much. Now that that LBJ's presence has brought major media attention to bear on the Cav PG, it's become very clear that he's not cut out to lead a team to a title: he's a talented scorer, but very low IQ, and only semi-motivated.

I believe that if the Cavs can still get a shot-blocker (doubtful) they can still get to the conference final - but not win it. They also really need a better (smarter) PG.

Cavs finally pulled off the Mozgov deal tonight - I really thought that it was nearly dead when I wrote this, but good move for them. With the addition of Shumpert also and the disappearance of Waiters, they now really have no excuses not to get to the WCF. Now if they can guarantee that that JR Smith stays superglued to the bench....

[lansdale]

The current offensive structure in Cleveland is one that features LBJ, Love and Irving when the ball isn't going into the hoop for anyone of those 3 there is little offensive threat from anyone else. The Cavs need another offensive go to guy, that may have been delivered in the form of Shumpert he can create, something DW didn't do. JR may also add to this interesting mix on the offensive side of the ball but based on his confidence level at this point in the season I wouldn't bet on him becoming that go to guy. Cavs will eventually figure this all out hopefully before the playoffs begin.

I'm guessing you're a Cleveland fan, so no offense intended by my comments, but everyone is second-guessing their front office now since LeBron's return. The major problem for the Cavs has been the defense, not scoring. The addition of Shumpert and Mozgov should help somewhat, if not dramatically in that area. J.R. Smith, however, is a serious liability - I'll be surprised if you don't agree in a couple of months. Also believe Irving not the PG to take them to a title.