Ms. Moss' latest closing argument

[Grits]

All those cheating are employed by others, while this argument refers to a three year old positive belonging to Tom Amoss?

A response by Indiana Horse Racing Commission director.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/indiana-gorajec-responds-to-moss-commentary/

Finally, Ms. Moss has opined about testing levels. She sets her sights on racing laboratories testing for drugs at picogram per milliliter concentrations. As stated in her commentary “The media also should ask what our labs are doing to test as they never have before and trying to measure amounts that are simply immeasurable.” She goes on to add – “The immeasurable amounts, by all scientific data, could not ever remotely affect the performance of the horse.”

This is simply untrue.

According to Richard Sams, PhD, Director of the LGC Science Inc. Laboratory in Lexington, Ky., such concentrations are measurable with modern instrumentation and are relevant for many drugs and medications. In fact, the availability of methodology that allows detection at picogram per milliliter concentrations allows testing of blood samples for these substances thereby improving the reliability of withdrawal time recommendations.

Ms.Moss' findings...

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/88735/commentary-when-regulation-runs-amok#disqus_thread

The 70 plus overages/positives, and maybe more, just in 2014, have not been revealed by the regulators at Indiana Grand, which misleads the betting public and creates an aura of secrecy with the public and the media. This pattern of positives and closed-door deals has been taking place since August with secrecy and selective prosecution. The meet ended Nov. 1, and though information as to the veracity of all this will perhaps be released, it only looks like a "guised effort to get tough on drugs."

[lamboguy]

she sounds like a lawyer

[Stillriledup]

Maybe someone can explain this in layman's terms. I know Amoss said something similar on tv, that very small overages of legal meds is much different than some of the other stuff going on and its not "cheating" per se.

My question to Maggie and Amoss would be this. Why not just use oats and hay and water? You won't ever have to worry about going over on ANY med if you don't use them.

Another question is about Indiana hiding information from the public about drug overages, isnt that breaking some kind of law?

[castaway01]

Maybe someone can explain this in layman's terms. I know Amoss said something similar on tv, that very small overages of legal meds is much different than some of the other stuff going on and its not "cheating" per se.

My question to Maggie and Amoss would be this. Why not just use oats and hay and water? You won't ever have to worry about going over on ANY med if you don't use them.

Another question is about Indiana hiding information from the public about drug overages, isnt that breaking some kind of law?

Obviously because these drugs have proven positive effects, even in legal doses. Not using them when you're in a competition would be foolish. It'd be like if you and someone else had an infection. We do an experiment to see who gets better first, but the other person gets the proper antibiotic, in the proper dose, and you don't. Now, you'll probably get better, if you have a healthy immune system, but there's a very high probability the other person would recover first. That'd be the situation someone who gave absolutely no medications to their horse might be in competing against someone who did.

[Stillriledup]

Obviously because these drugs have proven positive effects, even in legal doses. Not using them when you're in a competition would be foolish. It'd be like if you and someone else had an infection. We do an experiment to see who gets better first, but the other person gets the proper antibiotic, in the proper dose, and you don't. Now, you'll probably get better, if you have a healthy immune system, but there's a very high probability the other person would recover first. That'd be the situation someone who gave absolutely no medications to their horse might be in competing against someone who did.

No doubt, good points, its "keep up with the Joneses" theory. Good analogy too.

I think though that if you use ANY meds and go over, you gotta take the hit and the blame. I totally understand what Maggie and Tom are saying about the differences between slight almost undetectable overages on legal meds vs the other drug offenses that might be either massive overages of legal meds or illegal stuff altogether and how one is really not cheating.....i would say to them good luck convincing bettors that you're not a cheater either way. Bettors know races are decided, quite often, by 100ths of seconds, any overages no matter how small could affect the race.

[Delawaretrainer]

Delaware used this lab for the first time this year. They still have over fifty samples that have not been returned yet. The stewards are gone. People don't have their money. There were sooooo many positives this year it's crazy. Including one for the second place finish of Princess of Sylmar in the Delaware Handicap. Mostly tiny overages of therapeutics. All the splits came back different. MUCH different. Clearly this is an imperfect science and the smaller they test, the more apparent these human errors become.

[Tom]

Don't trace amounts result from larger amounts?

[stuball]

it's almost like can we give this drug and still go undetected..(push the
envelope) It's why I quit betting...nobody will notice that I am gone but
I only know I sleep better now...much more rested than trying to bottle the smoke in horse racing.

Stuball

[chadk66]

for this sport to survive it absolutely needs a national drug policy with standardized national testing. national rules regarding positives, etc. I just cannot fathom why this hasn't happened yet.

[Ruffian1]

for this sport to survive it absolutely needs a national drug policy with standardized national testing. national rules regarding positives, etc. I just cannot fathom why this hasn't happened yet.


This is spot on !

It has not happened because the industry has no commissioner. This is needed to keep each state, each owner, and each states politicians from doing what THEY feel is correct for themselves instead of what is correct for the industry.

The industry, while it includes all the workers at every track, be it for stables or management, only survives if bettors bet. But because the track owners as well as state officials only care about THEIR state or track, they cannot even decide when and where to meet to discuss this problem much less address the problem. And unfortunately, the bettors are taken for granted, which is a terrible injustice.

Until they implement national standards and have one face, like a commissioner, that represents the industry as a whole, the antiquated decisions that race track gamblers are so used to, will continue.

Having worked in the business for 27 years and served on multiple horseman's committees that worked through many topics, including bute and lasix back in the 70's, I can tell you that nothing is more frustrating than trying to do something reasonable in terms of helping the fan/bettor. It is simply incredible in such a negative way. It's like the mindset is stuck in the 60's. And it's like that because it is.

As for the picogram, it represents one trillionth of a gram, and without it, testing would be lost. It's not the trillionth of a gram that is the big deal, it's the story that it tells about what was administered, by whom, and when. It is sorely needed but any reasonable committee could have guide lines for these. That is, if the ownership allowed it. Unreal !

And as for trainers taking shots, it is usually quite obvious to other trainers and or horseman that have lived the game for years as to what is going on depending on the positive. Vet records are quite detailed and written out daily. It's not very tough to know who is trying to cheat and who is not. Most of the trainers knew who was honest and who was not within their group from circuit to circuit. I certainly did.

[Delawaretrainer]

This is spot on !

It has not happened because the industry has no commissioner. This is needed to keep each state, each owner, and each states politicians from doing what THEY feel is correct for themselves instead of what is correct for the industry.

The industry, while it includes all the workers at every track, be it for stables or management, only survives if bettors bet. But because the track owners as well as state officials only care about THEIR state or track, they cannot even decide when and where to meet to discuss this problem much less address the problem. And unfortunately, the bettors are taken for granted, which is a terrible injustice.

Until they implement national standards and have one face, like a commissioner, that represents the industry as a whole, the antiquated decisions that race track gamblers are so used to, will continue.

Having worked in the business for 27 years and served on multiple horseman's committees that worked through many topics, including bute and lasix back in the 70's, I can tell you that nothing is more frustrating than trying to do something reasonable in terms of helping the fan/bettor. It is simply incredible in such a negative way. It's like the mindset is stuck in the 60's. And it's like that because it is.

As for the picogram, it represents one trillionth of a gram, and without it, testing would be lost. It's not the trillionth of a gram that is the big deal, it's the story that it tells about what was administered, by whom, and when. It is sorely needed but any reasonable committee could have guide lines for these. That is, if the ownership allowed it. Unreal !

And as for trainers taking shots, it is usually quite obvious to other trainers and or horseman that have lived the game for years as to what is going on depending on the positive. Vet records are quite detailed and written out daily. It's not very tough to know who is trying to cheat and who is not. Most of the trainers knew who was honest and who was not within their group from circuit to circuit. I certainly did.

It may make you feel better to know that this is already happening. Uniform medication rules are already in place in many states and others are in the process as changes have to go through the states legislative process. It even includes a multiple violation penalty system that increases punishment based on a point system.

As far as trace amounts being indicative of larger amounts and telling a story, of course. Almost 100 percent of medication violations are for common therapeutic drugs that a trainer may use in the normal course of horse care. The allowable levels are well below that which would effect the horse except for LASIX.

[Grits]

Having worked in the business for 27 years and served on multiple horseman's committees that worked through many topics, including bute and lasix back in the 70's, I can tell you that nothing is more frustrating than trying to do something reasonable in terms of helping the fan/bettor. It is simply incredible in such a negative way. It's like the mindset is stuck in the 60's. And it's like that because it is.

As for the picogram, it represents one trillionth of a gram, and without it, testing would be lost. It's not the trillionth of a gram that is the big deal, it's the story that it tells about what was administered, by whom, and when. It is sorely needed but any reasonable committee could have guide lines for these. That is, if the ownership allowed it. Unreal !

Thank you for writing. Bad to be stuck, still, in the 70s isn't it?

Your opinion of testing at picograms level differs from Ms.Moss. You seem more familiar with its ability. May I ask you?

Granted, Ms.Moss is an attorney, a horse owner, a vocal presence and proponent of all that is good for race horses. Still, she is not a scientist. She is not in a lab each day, she is not trained to conduct testing on animals. With this noted, why is she convinced that picogram testing is inscrutable? Her points lead one to believe this is unnecessary? This is clutter that takes scrutiny away from "real cheaters"? Why would the Blood Horse give her a platform that seems to negate the need for such testing? ... Thank you in advance. .... And welcome to Pace Advantage.

[Tom]

for this sport to survive it absolutely needs a national drug policy with standardized national testing. national rules regarding positives, etc. I just cannot fathom why this hasn't happened yet.

The industry doesn't want that.
As long as we keep betting, they don't consider us customers, just suckers.
National anything means less local control.

[Ruffian1]

It may make you feel better to know that this is already happening. Uniform medication rules are already in place in many states and others are in the process as changes have to go through the states legislative process. It even includes a multiple violation penalty system that increases punishment based on a point system.

As far as trace amounts being indicative of larger amounts and telling a story, of course. Almost 100 percent of medication violations are for common therapeutic drugs that a trainer may use in the normal course of horse care. The allowable levels are well below that which would effect the horse except for LASIX.

I am aware of progress in the medication dept. I guess my problem is that I ran out of patience after waiting 3 decades.Lol.

On a lighter note, are you indeed a Delaware trainer? As in Thoroughbreds?

I spent many a summer day at Del. Park between 1972 and 2001.

[Ruffian1]

Thank you for writing. Bad to be stuck, still, in the 70s isn't it?

Your opinion of testing at picograms level differs from Ms.Moss. You seem more familiar with its ability. May I ask you?

Granted, Ms.Moss is an attorney, a horse owner, a vocal presence and proponent of all that is good for race horses. Still, she is not a scientist. She is not in a lab each day, she is not trained to conduct testing on animals. With this noted, why is she convinced that picogram testing is inscrutable? Her points lead one to believe this is unnecessary? This is clutter that takes scrutiny away from "real cheaters"? Why would the Blood Horse give her a platform that seems to negate the need for such testing? ... Thank you in advance. .... And welcome to Pace Advantage.

Ms. Moss is doing a fine job of having a voice in a subject that has not had one for way too long. I applaud her for that.

My stance on picograms is simple. If the right people are put in place to monitor overages, levels of the degree , (depending on the drug), need to be acknowledged but not necessarily fined to the extent of losing the purse. It totally depends on the drug, the trainers previous history, the horses previous drug history( meaning most horses pass drugs at about the same rate, but just like people, a small % of them retain trace amounts for a longer period of time. It is not that hard to document each horses occurrence during it's lifetime of racing), the reason the drug was administered, WHO administered it ( that is huge), was it documented prior to the overage( also huge), and more but I am shooting from the hip here and not giving this full thought. It's just not as hard as people make it seem. But most answers have an agenda attached. THAT, is the problem.

[Ruffian1]

Thank you for writing. Bad to be stuck, still, in the 70s isn't it?

Your opinion of testing at picograms level differs from Ms.Moss. You seem more familiar with its ability. May I ask you?

Granted, Ms.Moss is an attorney, a horse owner, a vocal presence and proponent of all that is good for race horses. Still, she is not a scientist. She is not in a lab each day, she is not trained to conduct testing on animals. With this noted, why is she convinced that picogram testing is inscrutable? Her points lead one to believe this is unnecessary? This is clutter that takes scrutiny away from "real cheaters"? Why would the Blood Horse give her a platform that seems to negate the need for such testing? ... Thank you in advance. .... And welcome to Pace Advantage.

"Real cheaters" having scrutiny taken away by trace amounts of others is no different than saying people that get speeding tickets for going 10-15 miles over the limit take away scrutiny from the reckless drivers that hit and run, drive drunk, etc.
As it stands, a positive is a positive, is a positive. That is ridiculous, unfair to the trainer and very misleading to the public. Gamblers with limited understanding have no choice but to draw a negative conclusion about overages because they are subjected to limited understanding in the 1st place. Again, it would not be hard to post a list of all overages in the grandstand for all to see and update it, weekly. They do it for sore horses that make the vets list and have done so for ever. So why not for overages. Then, educate the public with bi weekly forums at 11AM on Saturdays for Q and A as well as explanations as to the process.

I cannot speak to the Blood Horses motives but I would bet that a request for equal time for a rebutal would be tough to get.

[magwell]

All this game has to do for it to survive and grow, is lower the take to 12% on all bets and no rebates, and the drug issue will dissipate .......:cool:

[Stillriledup]

"Real cheaters" having scrutiny taken away by trace amounts of others is no different than saying people that get speeding tickets for going 10-15 miles over the limit take away scrutiny from the reckless drivers that hit and run, drive drunk, etc.
As it stands, a positive is a positive, is a positive. That is ridiculous, unfair to the trainer and very misleading to the public. Gamblers with limited understanding have no choice but to draw a negative conclusion about overages because they are subjected to limited understanding in the 1st place. Again, it would not be hard to post a list of all overages in the grandstand for all to see and update it, weekly. They do it for sore horses that make the vets list and have done so for ever. So why not for overages. Then, educate the public with bi weekly forums at 11AM on Saturdays for Q and A as well as explanations as to the process.

I cannot speak to the Blood Horses motives but I would bet that a request for equal time for a rebutal would be tough to get.

There's no doubt there's differences between trace amounts of legal stuff and the hard core "cheating" violations and it isn't fair to lump all trainers in this category, we need to separate them.

But.

Since we both know this is a horsemens game and not a bettors game, the horsemen actually control all of this stuff, horsemen are stamping their feet at certain off track facilities because they don't want "Gamblers" watching the workouts, so they do have the ability to control what gets posted on the bulletin board in the track and what gets "hidden" in the backstretch.

I don't know about you, but i've never seen in house commentators show violations on the tv's before the races, never heard them ask trainers during interviews to explain the overage they had the other day, never seen a sheet posted on a wall, for any layman to look at (not just those with racing licenses who have backstretch access and can see what's posted in the race office) and so on and so forth.

If horsemen want to NOT be lumped in with a blanket "cheater" label, they can't be secretive on anything else, can't have it both ways, more information needs to get out to the public and they can even go as far as giving the general public access to any vet record of any horse who is racing on a particular race card...that way, we can see who is getting what, what ailments each horse has, etc.

The "limited understanding" in the first place is the secretive nature of the track and how horsemen don't want "Stuff" known about their horses whether its workouts or that horse's vet records, don't blame it on gamblers being idiots and just not being as "smart" as horsemen on medication issues, if this stuff is hidden from the public eye, what other conclusion can all bettors come to other than lumping all the cheats into one category?

[Ruffian1]

There's no doubt there's differences between trace amounts of legal stuff and the hard core "cheating" violations and it isn't fair to lump all trainers in this category, we need to separate them.

But.

Since we both know this is a horsemens game and not a bettors game, the horsemen actually control all of this stuff, horsemen are stamping their feet at certain off track facilities because they don't want "Gamblers" watching the workouts, so they do have the ability to control what gets posted on the bulletin board in the track and what gets "hidden" in the backstretch.

I don't know about you, but i've never seen in house commentators show violations on the tv's before the races, never heard them ask trainers during interviews to explain the overage they had the other day, never seen a sheet posted on a wall, for any layman to look at (not just those with racing licenses who have backstretch access and can see what's posted in the race office) and so on and so forth.

If horsemen want to NOT be lumped in with a blanket "cheater" label, they can't be secretive on anything else, can't have it both ways, more information needs to get out to the public and they can even go as far as giving the general public access to any vet record of any horse who is racing on a particular race card...that way, we can see who is getting what, what ailments each horse has, etc.

The "limited understanding" in the first place is the secretive nature of the track and how horsemen don't want "Stuff" known about their horses whether its workouts or that horse's vet records, don't blame it on gamblers being idiots and just not being as "smart" as horsemen on medication issues, if this stuff is hidden from the public eye, what other conclusion can all bettors come to other than lumping all the cheats into one category?

At no point did I call gamblers idiots. On the contrary, I spent most of my years sticking up for them. I am not blaming gamblers for not understanding things they cannot see or have no experience with. So please don't tell me not to .

I have no idea what you are talking about horsemen not wanting to have people see workouts. Where I trained, that did not exist. I never heard another trainer mention anything like that in all my years. It is also hard to hear that horsemen control all this stuff. What stuff?

There is a vets list posted in the racing secretary's office wall for all to see. No badge required. It is open to the public.

Truth be told,horseman control very little in the game. The clockers are employed by DRF, the track, or other publications. And as a retired horseman, if you are saying on this forum that I controlled what workouts were posted and what was hidden, not only are you terribly misinformed but you are also accusing me of a felony as well. I find that hard to take.

[Stillriledup]

At no point did I call gamblers idiots. On the contrary, I spent most of my years sticking up for them. I am not blaming gamblers for not understanding things they cannot see or have no experience with. So please don't tell me not to .

I have no idea what you are talking about horsemen not wanting to have people see workouts. Where I trained, that did not exist. I never heard another trainer mention anything like that in all my years. It is also hard to hear that horsemen control all this stuff. What stuff?

There is a vets list posted in the racing secretary's office wall for all to see. No badge required. It is open to the public.

Truth be told,horseman control very little in the game. The clockers are employed by DRF, the track, or other publications. And as a retired horseman, if you are saying on this forum that I controlled what workouts were posted and what was hidden, not only are you terribly misinformed but you are also accusing me of a felony as well. I find that hard to take.

Not every facility in America permits racing fans to view workouts. That's the point i was trying to make.

I didn't realize that the public was allowed backstretch access to go into the racing office without a license, my bad if that's not the case.

As far as accusing you of a felony, cmon get real, you're an anonymous poster on a message board, i have no idea who you are and was just responding to your post, nothing more. Maybe next time i'll just post without quoting you if that's what you prefer, you know, if you cant handle someone responding to "you".

[Ruffian1]

Not every facility in America permits racing fans to view workouts. That's the point i was trying to make.

I didn't realize that the public was allowed backstretch access to go into the racing office without a license, my bad if that's not the case.

As far as accusing you of a felony, cmon get real, you're an anonymous poster on a message board, i have no idea who you are and was just responding to your post, nothing more. Maybe next time i'll just post without quoting you if that's what you prefer, you know, if you cant handle someone responding to "you".

It's a sham they do not allow entry during training hours. But that requires payroll and the track is not going to spend money on that unless it is Saratoga or such.

The public is not allowed on the backstretch but every track I ever worked at, had a racing office on the front side, typically near the paddock. The vets list is posted there and it is open to the public. It's just that most gamblers have no idea that such a list exists. That is also a shame.

As to quoting me, and discussing something, I have no problem with that. As to, you know, talking down to me, or taking jabs at me, I do have a problem with that.
I was taken back because I came here to actually try and help people better understand the game. Not the gambling part, the rest of it. There are so many misconceptions about what does and does not occur. I try and help people find out the truth about how it really is, so as to not keep them in the dark if they don't want to be. I have no agenda and no axe to grind. What I do have is a ton of experience that I am happy to share with those that care to read it. The way I read your response, I took it as an attack on all horsemen and trainers and therefore, on me. Just as I took your last sentence in your quote above.
Hopefully, in the future, good, honest dialog will take place where nobody gets the feeling that they are being talked down to. That is what I will strive for, and those will be the posters I will enjoy talking to.

[Stillriledup]

It's a sham they do not allow entry during training hours. But that requires payroll and the track is not going to spend money on that unless it is Saratoga or such.

The public is not allowed on the backstretch but every track I ever worked at, had a racing office on the front side, typically near the paddock. The vets list is posted there and it is open to the public. It's just that most gamblers have no idea that such a list exists. That is also a shame.

As to quoting me, and discussing something, I have no problem with that. As to, you know, talking down to me, or taking jabs at me, I do have a problem with that.
I was taken back because I came here to actually try and help people better understand the game. Not the gambling part, the rest of it. There are so many misconceptions about what does and does not occur. I try and help people find out the truth about how it really is, so as to not keep them in the dark if they don't want to be. I have no agenda and no axe to grind. What I do have is a ton of experience that I am happy to share with those that care to read it. The way I read your response, I took it as an attack on all horsemen and trainers and therefore, on me. Just as I took your last sentence in your quote above.
Hopefully, in the future, good, honest dialog will take place where nobody gets the feeling that they are being talked down to. That is what I will strive for, and those will be the posters I will enjoy talking to.

Im glad you're here, we appreciate your input and knowledge.

I don't mean to "Attack" or talk down to anyone, i apologize if that's the way it came across.

Some places have a vets list online, like california, but i think that because the list doesn't really talk about actual treatments, gamblers find it useless. Quite often a horse will be "vet scratched" and then come back to win, so the vet stuff doesn't interest players all that much as there's really no way to benefit from it....a "vet scratch" could mean anything, including just a precaution at the gate when nothing is really wrong with the horse.

[Ruffian1]

Im glad you're here, we appreciate your input and knowledge.

I don't mean to "Attack" or talk down to anyone, i apologize if that's the way it came across.

Some places have a vets list online, like california, but i think that because the list doesn't really talk about actual treatments, gamblers find it useless. Quite often a horse will be "vet scratched" and then come back to win, so the vet stuff doesn't interest players all that much as there's really no way to benefit from it....a "vet scratch" could mean anything, including just a precaution at the gate when nothing is really wrong with the horse.

I really appreciate your 1st two sentences. Thank you !

The vets list can be really confusing. And I agree, because it is so vanilla, it is probably best to steer clear of considering it.
The "vet scratch" seemed to come around when management was pressed to give handicappers more info. So, sadly, they announce a vet scratch. Problem with that is a vet scratch is any horse that was "stuck" when attempting to scratch originally. It tells the handicapper nothing.

As you know, there is a big difference between getting scratched in the post parade for soreness and scratching for a light cough that lasts 3 days. Yet, for info purposes, they are both called "vet scratches". I guess sometimes too much info works against you, and in this case I think it does.
My frustration for years as a handicappers advocate, until I backed off due to the beginnings of backlash( too young to fight the system back in the good ole boys 70's), was that upon pressure from Andy Beyer or DRF writers and the fan base, certain requests were made. When the track would decide to honor that request, they set up a system like the vet scratch. It is pathetic as well as appeasement similar to giving an annoying kid a quarter , patting him on the head and saying " now be quiet and go play".
Players are not exposed to exactly what to ask for at times, and as a result, if they don't lay out exactly how and what they need, they get plain jane results like the vet scratch. Not to say gamblers don't know what to ask for. Of course they do. But without exposure to exactly how the system works, they do not realize that with just a little more effort, they could get something that would be very useful to them. Instead, 9 times out of 10, it's the pat on the head nonsense I referred to. That, is criminal too me. The bettor deserves so much more.

When you enter a 1st time gelded horse, it must be stated at time of entry and circled on the entry form so the form will be sure and make the change, just like 1st time lasix or blks. on. I advocated to have gelding noted in the DRF in about 1977. I was told, "something to the affect of " it's too much work ,too costly and not necessary". Well, it was no more work, not at all costly, and very necessary .

As a claiming trainer, this info was very important to me. Because I knew the horses within my circuit so well, claiming almost every day, I picked up most of them but not all until after the fact. In plenty of cases, the difference is night and day as you know. With some trainers, the ROI is out of sight, just like Blks. on. Seems as though this is now printed in the form for players to see, but my point is, it should have been 40 years ago.

It's just that the gambler had no voice then. At least you players are able to have a voice now. Hopefully it gets louder as time goes on. And getting the medication rules uniform and allowing players full access to charts that describe the drug in question , it's intended use, it's legal status, etc. is a must if players are going to even begin to trust the game. As for vet records, each vet fills out a log sheet daily of all meds they administer. That sheet is turned into the Stewards daily.Horsemen cannot see those sheets and have no access to them. They are there so that when an overage is reported, the Stewards can cross reference the overage with the vets chart to see how much was administered and when it was administered. That is how that system works.

I hope some of this has helped you or someone. And again, thanks for the kind words and feel free to follow up anytime.