Where's the Marketing in Horse Racing?

[ReplayRandall]

I want you to think back and see if you remember something like this: In the late 60's and early 70's, Safeway used to have a continuous promotion giving a shopper who purchased at least $10 in groceries, a ticket with a horse's name and number to be televised at noon every Saturday. The amounts on the tickets varied, but if you won the replayed telecast at noon, you won that amount towards free groceries at Safeway. My best memory is of my mother, jumping up and down screaming for the 5 horse and watching it win for $50 free groceries........She had never made a bet in her life, but soon enough, there she was at Cal Expo with a group of lady friends, who were newbies themselves, just having a great afternoon of fun..........Just makes you wonder what happened to creative marketing in the horse racing industry.

[badcompany]

The creative efforts revolve around the siphoning of profits from other industries and funneling them into the pockets of horsemen.

[Overlay]

When I was a kid in Cincinnati, there was a weekly evening show (just before prime time) called "Let's Go to the Races" sponsored by a local grocery chain (Albers)(the same one that gave out S&H green stamps), featuring Jack Drees calling races from Sunshine Park in Florida. Each half-hour show presented five or six pre-recorded races for gradually increasing prize amounts. Every time you shopped at the chain during the week, you got an entry form giving you the number of one horse in each of that week's races. If any of your horses won any of the races, you collected the corresponding cash prize. Of course, the producers tried to select races (especially for the high-dollar events) where there was a blanket photo finish, or where a horse got up to win in the last stride, in order to create maximum suspense and excitement. I don't know if the show made a long-term racing fan out of anyone who didn't already follow the horses, but I'd say that it was definitely reaching a target audience that was not composed of typical horseplayers. I don't recall seeing anything like that since.

[ReplayRandall]

When I was a kid in Cincinnati, there was a weekly evening show (just before prime time) called "Let's Go to the Races" sponsored by a local grocery chain (Albers)(the same one that gave out S&H green stamps), featuring Jack Drees calling races from Sunshine Park in Florida. Each half-hour show presented five or six pre-recorded races for gradually increasing prize amounts. Every time you shopped at the chain during the week, you got an entry form giving you the number of one horse in each of that week's races. If any of your horses won any of the races, you collected the corresponding cash prize. Of course, the producers tried to select races (especially for the high-dollar events) where there was a blanket photo finish, or where a horse got up to win in the last stride, in order to create maximum suspense and excitement. I don't know if the show made a long-term racing fan out of anyone who didn't already follow the horses, but I'd say that it was definitely reaching a target audience that was not composed of typical horseplayers. I don't recall seeing anything like that since.


Overlay, look at the two of us bringing up the memories from 40 years ago. Looks like the marketing plan of horse racing back then was indeed quite effective..........

[Overlay]

Overlay, look at the two of us bringing up the memories from 40 years ago. Looks like the marketing plan of horse racing back then was indeed quite effective..........
I also still remember the regularly televised Race of the Week every Saturday, with Win Elliot and Fred "It Is Now Post Time" Capossela. I think it dropped off the radar about the same time that they also stopped showing the Fight of the Week, sponsored by Gillette, and called by "Don Dunphy, your ringside commentator".

[DJofSD]

Given the fact that most advertising and marketing is data driven, and, in turn, base on things internet, I posit the racing industry's collective disdain of things related to the computer has put them way, way behind.

[ReplayRandall]

I also still remember the regularly televised Race of the Week every Saturday, with Win Elliot and Fred "It Is Now Post Time" Capossela. I think it dropped off the radar about the same time that they also stopped showing the Fight of the Week, sponsored by Gillette, and called by "Don Dunphy, your ringside commentator".


Looks like your Ginkgo Biloba really kicked in this morning, Tim.........

[Overlay]

Looks like your Ginkgo Biloba really kicked in this morning, Tim.........
Just as long as you don't ask me what I had for lunch yesterday. :)

[rastajenk]

The narrative concerning racing has been totally won by those who believe it's animal cruelty, a cesspool of drugs and cheating, cheered on by degenerate losers, run by a blind, greedy, corrupted and soulless class of individuals, whose most successful participants are the targets of scorn ...and that's from some of its most passionate supporters (see: Paulick Report, DRF commenters, PaceAdvantage threads, etc.) The well of integrity has been permanently poisoned. Even if every ethical chasm eventually gets bridged, there will be new challenges raised about the need to use these beautiful sentient beings in this way. What non-racing entity wants to associate itself with that? I'm somewhat amazed that even the Breeders Cup races get sponsorship deals to have CEOs or their publicity lackeys participate in post-race trophy presentations.

Even the casino corporations that have bought up tracks refuse to make the connection. Once the linkage was established in the halls of government in order to win approval for expanded gaming, that buck stopped there. One thing I heard consistently from horsemen this summer at Belterra (nee: River Downs) was the lack of advertising for the racing going on there. A two- or three-second snippet of racing action in a 30-second promotion was about the extent of it. Same thing with the other new racinos here owned by different corporations.

Face it, race fans, you're a living link to a past that will never return. Do you really think that if the feds took control and standardized regulation; that if we could somehow go back to water, hay, and oats (when was that time, anyway?); that if breeders began producing sturdier animals, that people would flock back to the track and dump their entertainment resources into the pools? I don't. So, where is the upside for a non-racing entity to associate itself with this sport? Is the goal to get Longines wearers to become race fans, or to get race fans to purchase Longines watches?

[DJofSD]

Rasta-man, you've made some good points.

Part of what I believe the industry should be doing is educating people about horses and racing. I say this in part because horses and racing are no longer a staple of the every-man's experience to any degree.

I believe the industry should include some aspect of the so called green movement -- sustainability, recycling and nature. What is more natural than horses: breeding them, raising them and, yes, improving the breed through racing. At this point, the issues of cheating, drugs and what have you, can be addressed and should be.

OK, I'll stop here. Back at ya.

[Robert Goren]

The narrative concerning racing has been totally won by those who believe it's animal cruelty, a cesspool of drugs and cheating, cheered on by degenerate losers, run by a blind, greedy, corrupted and soulless class of individuals, whose most successful participants are the targets of scorn ...and that's from some of its most passionate supporters (see: Paulick Report, DRF commenters, PaceAdvantage threads, etc.) The well of integrity has been permanently poisoned. Even if every ethical chasm eventually gets bridged, there will be new challenges raised about the need to use these beautiful sentient beings in this way. What non-racing entity wants to associate itself with that? I'm somewhat amazed that even the Breeders Cup races get sponsorship deals to have CEOs or their publicity lackeys participate in post-race trophy presentations.

Even the casino corporations that have bought up tracks refuse to make the connection. Once the linkage was established in the halls of government in order to win approval for expanded gaming, that buck stopped there. One thing I heard consistently from horsemen this summer at Belterra (nee: River Downs) was the lack of advertising for the racing going on there. A two- or three-second snippet of racing action in a 30-second promotion was about the extent of it. Same thing with the other new racinos here owned by different corporations.

Face it, race fans, you're a living link to a past that will never return. Do you really think that if the feds took control and standardized regulation; that if we could somehow go back to water, hay, and oats (when was that time, anyway?); that if breeders began producing sturdier animals, that people would flock back to the track and dump their entertainment resources into the pools? I don't. So, where is the upside for a non-racing entity to associate itself with this sport? Is the goal to get Longines wearers to become race fans, or to get race fans to purchase Longines watches?The goal of Longines was to get rich horse owners to buy Longines watches. It was not to promote the BC. You won't see a Longines ad tied to racing.
The day of the kind of marketing like the "supermarket race game" is long over. The marketing of racing is going to have be paid for in full by racing.

[Tape Reader]

It was hijacked by kids. My friends’ mother worked as one of those clerks giving out tickets. After just a casual look at the numbers we kids could figure out who was going to win: The horse with the fewest tickets. Those tickets never got to the consumer!

Same thing when we were hired to give out movie circulars. The “lucky color” that would be posted at the box office on Saturday got in for free. Same deal: Fewest of that color always won. Us!

Now these kids have all grown up and work for the government. Same deal: They tax the sh*t out of everyone before they can get to the windows to collect.

“We” was not me, of course.

[ReplayRandall]

The narrative concerning racing has been totally won by those who believe it's animal cruelty, a cesspool of drugs and cheating, cheered on by degenerate losers, run by a blind, greedy, corrupted and soulless class of individuals, whose most successful participants are the targets of scorn ...and that's from some of its most passionate supporters (see: Paulick Report, DRF commenters, PaceAdvantage threads, etc.) The well of integrity has been permanently poisoned. Even if every ethical chasm eventually gets bridged, there will be new challenges raised about the need to use these beautiful sentient beings in this way. What non-racing entity wants to associate itself with that? I'm somewhat amazed that even the Breeders Cup races get sponsorship deals to have CEOs or their publicity lackeys participate in post-race trophy presentations.

Even the casino corporations that have bought up tracks refuse to make the connection. Once the linkage was established in the halls of government in order to win approval for expanded gaming, that buck stopped there. One thing I heard consistently from horsemen this summer at Belterra (nee: River Downs) was the lack of advertising for the racing going on there. A two- or three-second snippet of racing action in a 30-second promotion was about the extent of it. Same thing with the other new racinos here owned by different corporations.

Face it, race fans, you're a living link to a past that will never return. Do you really think that if the feds took control and standardized regulation; that if we could somehow go back to water, hay, and oats (when was that time, anyway?); that if breeders began producing sturdier animals, that people would flock back to the track and dump their entertainment resources into the pools? I don't. So, where is the upside for a non-racing entity to associate itself with this sport? Is the goal to get Longines wearers to become race fans, or to get race fans to purchase Longines watches?


Quick question Rasta, have you ever practiced law?

[GatetoWire]

The goal of Longines was to get rich horse owners to buy Longines watches. It was not to promote the BC. You won't see a Longines ad tied to racing.
The day of the kind of marketing like the "supermarket race game" is long over. The marketing of racing is going to have be paid for in full by racing.

You won't see a Longines ad tied to racing.

Wrong again. Here are 3 ads that they have been running for the last 2 years.

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7oXw/longines-horse-racing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5TFNwr6Yxg

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7Kpv/longines-horses

[rastajenk]

No, not in the sense I assume that you mean. I did stay in Holiday Inn Express once. :p

[Robert Goren]

You won't see a Longines ad tied to racing.

Wrong again. Here are 3 ads that they have been running for the last 2 years.

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7oXw/longines-horse-racing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5TFNwr6Yxg

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7Kpv/longines-horses When are they on except on racing shows? I never seen one during say a football game.

[cj]

When are they on except on racing shows? I never seen one during say a football game.

LOL, like horse racing can afford that.

[DJofSD]

The target audience likely does not watch football. And, more likely than not, with the exception of the BC airing, those ads are for a European audience.

[Robert Goren]

LOL, like horse racing can afford that.Horse racing was not paying Longines to run the ads. Longines was paying a naming fee to the breeders cup and paid NBC so it could run ads during their broadcast. Longines or anybody else is going run ads that in any way connect it to horse racing outside of broadcasts connected to horse racing. Heck, NBC barely ran any ads promoting their broadcast of the breeders cup. Nobody out there is trying to find away increase the visibility of their product by linking it to horse racing the way are to the NFL or the NBA.

[GatetoWire]

I think what you are all missing here is that Advertising in 2014 is about zeroing in on your target market.

Longines obviously believes that their partnership with races will result in an increase in brand awareness that will lead to more sales of their products.

Racing has done a very poor job of marketing to their customers and potential customers.

I live in MD, 25 min from Laurel Park. Tomorrow they have a pretty good card of racing with 6 stakes races and full fields.
I don't play Laurel and I only found out about the card by accident when I got a Horse Watch e-mail letting me know about one of the entries.

If I follow racing everyday, live 25 min from the place and I have to find out about a stakes card by accident then you know that marketing is non-existent.
If I don't know about the card how the hell is someone who is a casual fan or a non fan suppose to know about it?

Not only does racing fail to reach the existing target market it doesn't even register a blip on the radar of the potential new fan/bettor.

[onefast99]

I think what you are all missing here is that Advertising in 2014 is about zeroing in on your target market.

Longines obviously believes that their partnership with races will result in an increase in brand awareness that will lead to more sales of their products.

Racing has done a very poor job of marketing to their customers and potential customers.

I live in MD, 25 min from Laurel Park. Tomorrow they have a pretty good card of racing with 6 stakes races and full fields.
I don't play Laurel and I only found out about the card by accident when I got a Horse Watch e-mail letting me know about one of the entries.

If I follow racing everyday, live 25 min from the place and I have to find out about a stakes card by accident then you know that marketing is non-existent.
If I don't know about the card how the hell is someone who is a casual fan or a non fan suppose to know about it?

Not only does racing fail to reach the existing target market it doesn't even register a blip on the radar of the potential new fan/bettor.
Exactly those who are running the marketing campaigns at many a racetrack have become complacent. MP is a great track, the current promotional department as well as the current marketing department never made it past 2007's Breeders Cup. Nothing new for almost 7 years until mini golf was added and now a new concert venue. All have zero to do with marketing the main product, horse racing!

[Milkshaker]

Here's something that rarely gets mentioned, but I know marketers in other leisure pastimes (ie golf, skiing) are just starting to realize:

The budgets of young adults (let's say anyone under 40 these days) contains an expense that was non-existent even 15 years ago: A huge monthly chunk (in some cases hundreds of dollars) for smart phone and data usage plans.

That's where a lot of otherwise disposable income is going now.

An extra hundred bucks for a lift ticket, round of golf, or day at the races gets spent on staring into little glass rectangles

[Some_One]

Last Week Tonight had a piece on the Lotteries and it showed that Americans spend a lot of money, it also gave a look at their marketing tactics. Compare that to a study last year when internet poker was legalized in NJ that something like only 1 in 10 knew it was finally legal to play online poker in that state. I'm sure horse racing as similar awareness issues.

Last week's Melbourne Cup had about the same handle as the Derby, but America has 10X the population of Australia, but in Australia 3rd party operator advertising is legal (for now) and in the major cities, you can't go that far with out running into a TAB outlet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-netuhHA

[Redboard]

Here's something that rarely gets mentioned, but I know marketers in other leisure pastimes (ie golf, skiing) are just starting to realize:

The budgets of young adults (let's say anyone under 40 these days) contains an expense that was non-existent even 15 years ago: A huge monthly chunk (in some cases hundreds of dollars) for smart phone and data usage plans.

That's where a lot of otherwise disposable income is going now.

An extra hundred bucks for a lift ticket, round of golf, or day at the races gets spent on staring into little glass rectangles


http://home.comcast.net/~galacticomm/images/cell1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~galacticomm/images/cell2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~galacticomm/images/cell3.jpg

[thespaah]

When I was a kid in Cincinnati, there was a weekly evening show (just before prime time) called "Let's Go to the Races" sponsored by a local grocery chain (Albers)(the same one that gave out S&H green stamps), featuring Jack Drees calling races from Sunshine Park in Florida. Each half-hour show presented five or six pre-recorded races for gradually increasing prize amounts. Every time you shopped at the chain during the week, you got an entry form giving you the number of one horse in each of that week's races. If any of your horses won any of the races, you collected the corresponding cash prize. Of course, the producers tried to select races (especially for the high-dollar events) where there was a blanket photo finish, or where a horse got up to win in the last stride, in order to create maximum suspense and excitement. I don't know if the show made a long-term racing fan out of anyone who didn't already follow the horses, but I'd say that it was definitely reaching a target audience that was not composed of typical horseplayers. I don't recall seeing anything like that since.
That show was shown in the NY Metro area as well.

[thespaah]

WCBS News Radio 880( NYC) at each quarter hour during the race days and evenings would give race results as well as stretch calls from NYRA and Yonkers/Roosevelt( which ever was open).
There were commercials on TV for all of the NY Metro area tracks.
In Upstate NY, The Albany Times Union would publish full charts with the photo finish images for every race at Saratoga.
Plus, the local TV Stations in Albany would have reporters on site every race day.
The TU had two or three reporters covering the day's races, doing stories on racing personalities, horses and races.
On Travers Day, media from all over the Northeast and New England were in attendance.

[whodoyoulike]

I don't recall any supermarket or TV show marketing horse racing. But, I'm probably not as old as you, Overlay and the others.

Are you certain it wasn't on the radio?

[Poindexter]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the current set up of most money being bet through ADW's and thus racetracks receiving a reduced share of the pie, place the marketing responsibility on ADW's as racetracks would not derive enough benefit to pay for the marketing costs. Wouldn't that be one of the downfalls of the current betting setup(ADW's rather than people betting directly with the host racetrack)?

On a side note, wouldn't it make sense for racetracks to cross promote with local poker rooms? For example Santa Anita is maybe a 25 minute drive from the Commerce Casino. The people who go to the Commerce Casino would certainly make great potential race track customers and by the same token some race track patrons might make good poker room customers. Yes they are indirect competitiors, but I am sure there is a lot of people in poker rooms that do not go to racetracks and I am sure there are plenty of people that attend the race track that do not go to poker rooms. I think both would benefit from a cross promotion. Not sure if this type of promotion goes on, as I do not go to either. Handing everybody that buys chips at the local Poker room a coupon that might give them 2 clubhouse admissions and a free racing form download for $10, for the day of an upcoming big race, certainly not a bad way to bring a lot of newbies to the local racetrack). Or maybe racetracks would be scared that once their customers set foot into a local casino, they would never see them again. Ah the ramifications of ripping people off.

[BettinBilly]

I don't recall any supermarket or TV show marketing horse racing. But, I'm probably not as old as you, Overlay and the others.

Are you certain it wasn't on the radio?

It was a TV marketing campaign aimed at driving grocery store sales. It was a vast campaign sold to many chains in many markets.

I grew up in various parts of the country and I do remember Horse Racing TV advertised by local supermarkets in two or three markets. It was a large "Syndicated" show where the winners were pre-determined. The races that I witnessed on TV were all Harness Racing. No Thoroughbred. Some supermarkets gave you a scratch off ticket and if you scratched off the right numbers that matched the winner(s) of a race(es), then you received X number of dollars. I remember my grandfather especially was big on this. It was the first time he didn't have to go to the track to get some kind of thrill of racing at his advanced age.

[Poindexter]

I vaguely remember the Supermarket promotion as a kid. I remember as a kid initially loving it, then I realized how stupid it was, because I stood to be a big winner if say the number 5 won the race, but obviously the race was already run and obviously the 5 lost even if I got the false thrill of watching him open up 2 turning for home only to get nailed at the wire. Didn't take me long to realize it was pointless.

But back to promotion, I remember I think back in the 70's Hollywood Park used to have a promotion where everyone with a paid admission got a card to fill out the winner in each race and the people who had the most winners either split the prize, or they had some kind of tiebreaker(I forget those details) but that was fun promotion, that would be good for ADW's. Say every Twinspires member gets to fill out 1 ticket for all 9 races this Saturday at Aqueduct and the people who select the most winners split a prize of say $500 or whatever they want to give away. Forces people to handicap and once they handicap, a good chance they will do some betting. People love freebies.

[onefast99]

WCBS News Radio 880( NYC) at each quarter hour during the race days and evenings would give race results as well as stretch calls from NYRA and Yonkers/Roosevelt( which ever was open).
There were commercials on TV for all of the NY Metro area tracks.
In Upstate NY, The Albany Times Union would publish full charts with the photo finish images for every race at Saratoga.
Plus, the local TV Stations in Albany would have reporters on site every race day.
The TU had two or three reporters covering the day's races, doing stories on racing personalities, horses and races.
On Travers Day, media from all over the Northeast and New England were in attendance.
Wins 1010 did it for quite sometime they even had the harness and thoroughbreds update from the Meadowlands.

[Robert Fischer]

Where's the Marketing in Horse Racing?Horse race marketing is somewhat like horse race investing(betting).

If you are able to turn a profit in this system, then what the hell are you doing in this system?

I say that half in jest, as this is a great sport and a great game, and there are some great people involved.

[jballscalls]

one thing to remember with marketing, just because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean others aren't.

You guys talking about marketing from yesteryear IMO aren't adding anything to the conversation because racing was in a different place societally and marketing was massively different. There was the newspaper and the basic tv channels and mailers/giveaways. There's 50 million ways to advertise now.

i hear people suggest marketing ideas all the time and I'm sure some of them would work. but you can't do everything. you have to pick what is most effective within your marketing budget.

[Bullet Plane]

Marketing isn't getting to the target audience.

There may be some out there. But, I haven't seen any...

There is a target audience for horse racing, there always has been...

hint: they have never been young... never, ever.

At least since I've been watching it... for over twenty years...

(and I'm a kid in the horse racing fan realm... and an old man in most others)

[whodoyoulike]

Maybe they should be targeting the boomer demographics. Isn't the boomer generation the largest in comparison to the others? And, most of use the old math in problem solving. Some, I've heard can do it their heads.

[Grits]

The narrative concerning racing has been totally won by those who believe it's animal cruelty, a cesspool of drugs and cheating, cheered on by degenerate losers, run by a blind, greedy, corrupted and soulless class of individuals, whose most successful participants are the targets of scorn ...and that's from some of its most passionate supporters (see: Paulick Report, DRF commenters, PaceAdvantage threads, etc.) The well of integrity has been permanently poisoned. Even if every ethical chasm eventually gets bridged, there will be new challenges raised about the need to use these beautiful sentient beings in this way. What non-racing entity wants to associate itself with that? I'm somewhat amazed that even the Breeders Cup races get sponsorship deals to have CEOs or their publicity lackeys participate in post-race trophy presentations.

Even the casino corporations that have bought up tracks refuse to make the connection. Once the linkage was established in the halls of government in order to win approval for expanded gaming, that buck stopped there. One thing I heard consistently from horsemen this summer at Belterra (nee: River Downs) was the lack of advertising for the racing going on there. A two- or three-second snippet of racing action in a 30-second promotion was about the extent of it. Same thing with the other new racinos here owned by different corporations.

Face it, race fans, you're a living link to a past that will never return. Do you really think that if the feds took control and standardized regulation; that if we could somehow go back to water, hay, and oats (when was that time, anyway?); that if breeders began producing sturdier animals, that people would flock back to the track and dump their entertainment resources into the pools? I don't. So, where is the upside for a non-racing entity to associate itself with this sport? Is the goal to get Longines wearers to become race fans, or to get race fans to purchase Longines watches?



Originally posted by Just Ralph
Every time I hear this I laugh. This is not going to happen. The younger fans have way too many choices. No way they come over to the dark side. They first of all don't have the basic skills to analyze a racing form. It's over. These kids today don't do math in their heads. It's simple. They can't do the math. You think you can interest a kid today in a game that uses fifths of a second as one of the most notable things an announcer says during a race? Even if you changed the way we time and explain the timing, the only timing that would matter to them is "why the hell am I waiting 20 minutes between races?" Bottom line, there are no "new fans" to drive to the game.

Do you see any young people sitting around doing the NY Times crossword puzzle anymore? Find me a great crossword guy and I will find you a good handicapper. We are the last of the breed ladies and gents. Get used to it.
I was standing outside Lone Star park a few weeks back waiting for the doors to open. They were having a tournament that day. I was fifteen minutes early. In the fifteen minutes I was there, the tournament guys starting showing up. In fifteen minutes the crowd grew to about 35 guys. I was the youngest guy. I'm closing in on 55. The average age I am going to guess was 62-63. We are playing a game that is done. The Dinosaurs eventually have to die off.

There's so much written at this website that makes one pause. Nothing more recent, nothing more honest and well stated than these two posts. The industry swells could learn much here.

Having read both of these threads in their entirety now, while writing this morning about the price of coffee--I had not fully read all comments. I believe, with little doubt, that discussion of food/drink prices at racetracks is pretty insignificant.

I try not to be negative, to wear the problems of this game like a shroud, but these posts can't be ignored. For so many reasons, the game will continue in decline...we now live in a totally different time and age with a population's mindset to match. No amount of marketing will change time or reclaim it. Nor will social media prove an enhancement for a disinterested population. One can wonder, if even contraction will be able to rejuvenate it, leaving only the best meets, the leading racetracks. For years, thinking it was the answer, I'm not sure anymore. This grows more apparent, more disappointing for those who love it, those who wager on it, and for those who work, making their living in it. ... Maybe, if only a handful with the ability to make change had listened? We might be in a different place today.

[Tom]

Buggy whips went on sale at one time.
Didn't help.

When something is over, it's over. No one will ever do what is needed to revitalize racing in America. The only models that will work are not acceptable to the elites who think they are all that matter.

Racing here never figured out who the customers were.

[EMD4ME]

Great thread started by Replay Randall 2 years ago.

PA Nation, you are in 50 states or maybe 31 states or at least a majority of states.


What marketing have you seen in your state for horse racing?

[thaskalos]

Great thread started by Replay Randall 2 years ago.

PA Nation, you are in 50 states or maybe 31 states or at least a majority of states.


What marketing have you seen in your state for horse racing?

Soon after the U.S. Government crackdown on online poker...a horseracing ad found itself on the back cover of Cardplayer magazine. Over the trademark photo of the driving horse with its neck reaching out for the wire, the heading read:

"Remember...OUR game is legal."

[EMD4ME]

Soon after the U.S. Government crackdown on online poker...a horseracing ad found itself on the back cover of Cardplayer magazine. Over the trademark photo of the driving horse with its neck reaching out for the wire, the heading read:

"Remember...OUR game is legal."

Thank you Thaskalos. Do you remember who paid for that article?

Have to give them credit, that was a start. (The legality). Did they market anything else?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Great thread started by Replay Randall 2 years ago.

PA Nation, you are in 50 states or maybe 31 states or at least a majority of states.


What marketing have you seen in your state for horse racing?

OK EMD4ME. I'll give you a good chuckle for your day.

A week ago Thursday in Lincoln, NE our lone simulcast venue, held a 2 race event so that we can keep our simulcast venue alive.

Those 2 races were 1F races with 3 horses each. :bang: (Hey, the Double at least paid $9.60 for a 3/5 over an 8/5.)

[EMD4ME]

OK EMD4ME. I'll give you a good chuckle for your day.

A week ago Thursday in Lincoln, NE our lone simulcast venue, held a 2 race event so that we can keep our simulcast venue alive.

Those 2 races were 1F races with 3 horses each. :bang: (Hey, the Double at least paid $9.60 for a 3/5 over an 8/5.)

Oh My Lord..... :bang: :bang: :bang:

That annoys me. I don't care if it's Nebraska or New York. It burns me to hear the game not being marketed correctly....

I will laugh at the situation though....at least you beat the parlay odds :lol:

[thaskalos]

Thank you Thaskalos. Do you remember who paid for that article?

Have to give them credit, that was a start. (The legality). Did they market anything else?

No...they didn't market anything else. My guess is that they would have marketed some of the game's "big winners"...but they probably had problems locating them.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I have thought about this for some time. Over the last 15 years marketing has changed significantly.

Years ago the Hambletonian and Haskell were run on the same weekend. The star ledger would run a section that described both events in depth, with analysis as well as pictures of each track. Back then there were several dedicated racing writers in each paper. The reason I bring up the paper is because many people who purchased it wouldnt necessarily buy it for the racing coverage, but would be exposed to the events simply by having it. There was always that chance that someone would see it and perhaps go to the events. Over the years circulation has dwindled and the people that covered racing disappeared.

Two things in my opinion have changed. Most people, specifically the younger demographic, get their news through social media. The thing with social media is that you have to have interest in something already to know the promotion is taking place. So for instance facebook, you would have to "like" or "follow" a tracks page, same thing with twitter, in order to see what is going on. The takeaway from this is that the promotions are reaching people that already have an interest and is an established fan base. Yes, it is effective in getting these customers to come back to the track, but it isnt reaching "new" customers in the same way that news papers may have. Air time has become increasingly expensive so very few tracks can have their show tv.

The other thing is the alarming number of racinos and the decline of the profitability of tracks in general. We already know that some places are willing to have horse racing run at a loss just to have the profitable casino, so where do you think they will spend their marketing dollars?

With the exception of the salary of the person dedicated to social media as the lone cost, most social media is free. Why do you think it is free? It certainly helps and I do think some tracks do a fantastic job with it , but in reality it isnt reaching new potential customers and you can bet most racinos will be marketing towards the casino.

[EMD4ME]

No...they didn't market anything else. My guess is that they would have marketed some of the game's "big winners"...but they probably had problems locating them.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But, they could've went to:


Chicago, NY (many), Florida and wherever coach lives !!!

[rsetup]

Why follow sports that give you things for free
When you can play the ponies and pay for everything?

What exactly could you market with that approach?

We suck blood?;;

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I guess the real question comes down to HOW you market horse racing?

For us everyday guys and gals, it is simple. It is a big part of our life. We love it, we love the numbers, we love the mental challenge and the effort it takes to win.

For the casual fan you are trying to attract, how do you get them to the track, and then how do you get them to wager?

Horse racing has been so far out of the spotlight in the last 30+ years, that most people don't understand basic terms such as Place and Show, or Exacta, or Trifecta, or Daily Double, or Pick 3, or Pick 4. They'll fire $30 on a Keno ticket that they have no clue about because all they have to do is crayon something into a little sheet and 2 or 3 or 20 games later within an hour or less, they have their non-confusing results before them.

Is that what we have to do in horse racing? Put sheets together like a Keno ticket so people can make P3s and P4s or Exactas, or WPS show tickets? Heck, I even have to explain Keno books to people, much less them trying to take on a racing form. :bang:

The cold hard reality is that most people just don't want to think as hard as is needed to actually wager with some intelligence on a horse race.

So even if you get them to the track, and they lose every race, they aren't likely coming back. And that is if you keep them there for 3 hours after they lose $50 on the first 2 races and then quit and want to leave.

It is a fast paced world in which instant gratification is needed, and the 20+ minutes or so between races does not condone to that type of behavior. Especially when it is as hard as winning as horse race wagering.

[Nitro]

Great thread started by Replay Randall 2 years ago.

PA Nation, you are in 50 states or maybe 31 states or at least a majority of states.


What marketing have you seen in your state for horse racing?
I would have so say that the biggest promotion of horseracing that I’ve witnessed in a long time was on a relatively new cable network, Esquire back in 2014. The show was called “Horseplayers” and whether you liked it or not as a horseplayer, it definitely had a positive impact on some of the general public and even some casual players. I’m not sure who sponsored this program or whether or not it was an intentional marketing scheme, but I recall hearing from people that never even talked about this game who were actually looking forward to each episode.

It appeared to me that these same people generally enjoyed watching a variety of reality shows. They seemed to take pleasure in seeing both the ecstasy of winning, and the misery of losing through the experiences of real players. Funny thing is at the time I wasn’t even aware that this program existed. The topic only came up at one of our family gatherings by one of the women in the group who I thought was the least likely to even mention horse racing. Not only that, but her enthusiasm was contagious to the point where a planned weekend for a number of family and friends at Saratoga that summer followed. Personally I think that the fun weekend we experienced would have never happened had it not been for that program.

Programs like that and movies perhaps like Sea Biscuit and Secretariat can stimulate a lot of interest in this game on a very large scale. It’s unfortunate that there isn’t more of this type of entertainment for the general public.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall
Actually, the game for geniuses is chess....Horse racing needs to be "Searching for it's own Bobby Fischer", to re-market the game.

My point is what Fischer did for the explosive popularity of chess, which was nothing to the American public prior to his arrival. Beginners started forming chess clubs, and chess became a focal point in the American entertainment scene. Horse racing needs to think in those terms, which has some hope with the NHC, Breeders Cup Betting Challenge and the Horseplayer's World Series. Players like Jonathon Kinchen and Christian Hellmers seemed like they tapped into something on a "Bobby Fischer" type level of play and excitement, but both could not sustain it. But sponsors are starting to finally come around, making a TV reappearance on ESPN, a viable possibility.....Who knows what can happen from there, but horse racing needs something that's bigger than life, like Fischer was to chess, to create new fans and excitement, above all, bringing them to the racetrack or the internet.

[VigorsTheGrey]

My point is what Fischer did for the explosive popularity of chess, which was nothing to the American public prior to his arrival. Beginners started forming chess clubs, and chess became a focal point in the American entertainment scene. Horse racing needs to think in those terms, which has some hope with the NHC, Breeders Cup Betting Challenge and the Horseplayer's World Series. Players like Jonathon Kinchen and Christian Hellmers seemed like they tapped into something on a "Bobby Fischer" type level of play and excitement, but both could not sustain it. But sponsors are starting to finally come around, making a TV reappearance on ESPN, a viable possibility.....Who knows what can happen from there, but horse racing needs something that's bigger than life, like Fischer was to chess, to create new fans and excitement, above all, bringing them to the racetrack or the internet.

Do you play chess Randall? I play on Lichess website...I'm around a 1500 rated player, which is average...I've played since I was young but started up again recently...

[ReplayRandall]

Do you play chess Randall? I play on Lichess website...I'm around a 1500 rated player, which is average...I've played since I was young but started up again recently...

I use to play semi-serious for about 10 years, but I found backgammon, gin, sports betting, poker, the stock market, the real estate market, dog-racing and horse racing all paid better......There just wasn't enough hours in the day for chess...:cool:

[VigorsTheGrey]

I use to play semi-serious for about 10 years, but I found backgammon, gin, sports betting, poker, the stock market, the real estate market, dog-racing and horse racing all paid better......There just wasn't enough hours in the day for chess...:cool:

Do you have a technique for betting dogs?

[ReplayRandall]

Do you have a technique for betting dogs?

When I used to bet, I only played Tri's and the Big Q......As far as technique, watching replays, notating what kennels were running hot/cold and watching replays, again...;)

[Lemon Drop Husker]

When I used to bet, I only played Tri's and the Big Q......As far as technique, watching replays, notating what kennels were running hot/cold and watching replays, again...;)

Where does one find a dog racing replay site?

[VigorsTheGrey]

I guess the real question comes down to HOW you market horse racing?

For us everyday guys and gals, it is simple. It is a big part of our life. We love it, we love the numbers, we love the mental challenge and the effort it takes to win.

For the casual fan you are trying to attract, how do you get them to the track, and then how do you get them to wager?

Horse racing has been so far out of the spotlight in the last 30+ years, that most people don't understand basic terms such as Place and Show, or Exacta, or Trifecta, or Daily Double, or Pick 3, or Pick 4. They'll fire $30 on a Keno ticket that they have no clue about because all they have to do is crayon something into a little sheet and 2 or 3 or 20 games later within an hour or less, they have their non-confusing results before them.

Is that what we have to do in horse racing? Put sheets together like a Keno ticket so people can make P3s and P4s or Exactas, or WPS show tickets? Heck, I even have to explain Keno books to people, much less them trying to take on a racing form. :bang:

The cold hard reality is that most people just don't want to think as hard as is needed to actually wager with some intelligence on a horse race.

So even if you get them to the track, and they lose every race, they aren't likely coming back. And that is if you keep them there for 3 hours after they lose $50 on the first 2 races and then quit and want to leave.

It is a fast paced world in which instant gratification is needed, and the 20+ minutes or so between races does not condone to that type of behavior. Especially when it is as hard as winning as horse race wagering.

Yeah, the reason why racing lacks fans is because most novices quickly lose their money, and feel uncomfortable betting more on stuff they are clueless about.
It feels like they are just throwing money away...it is too unpredictable for them....and they lack the time to invest in the sport..they are too busy working 2-4 part-time jobs and stress about every nickel and dime in their pocket...Betting on horses is getting to be a rich man's sport, like snow skiing...with the price of the a form being $10 now, the high rake...gas to get there and back, expensive but lousy food and drinks, and occasional winner that pays $3.60 in a 5 horse field....Can you blame them for losing interest quickly?

[ReplayRandall]

Where does one find a dog racing replay site?
For starters, this one is consistent in staying current:

http://www.trackinfo.com/video-box.jsp

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Yeah, the reason why racing lacks fans is because most novices quickly lose their money, and feel uncomfortable betting more on stuff they are clueless about.
It feels like they are just throwing money away...it is too unpredictable for them....and they lack the time to invest in the sport..they are too busy working 2-4 part-time jobs and stress about every nickel and dime in their pocket...Betting on horses is getting to be a rich man's sport, like snow skiing...with the price of the a form being $10 now, the high rake...gas to get there and back, expensive but lousy food and drinks, and occasional winner that pays $3.60 in a 5 horse field....Can you blame them for losing interest quickly?

No.

Horse race betting and winning is hard. Really hard.

[SG4]

A few weeks ago I had NBC on, I think early, the Today Show or something, and a commercial for TVG came on. I could not believe it. Have never seen one on network TV before or since. Now why isn't this the big marketing sell from every jurisdiction? Legal betting you can do from the comfort of your home or phone or wherever at any time. Can you not run these ads during NFL games or other programs which are likely to attract people who might be interested in some easy action?

I would think get interest up this way first, then if you get people signed up for betting accounts, start trying to get them out to the track to really build a foundation of enjoying the game on a different level.

Enough with having the hipster attire clad & fashionable outings once a year as a marketing message, that's clearly not building a real base who supports the game year-round with their wallets.

[jballscalls]

With marketing, i've always noticed that people think just cause they themselves don't see it that it's not happening. I remember at PM before the season we had billboards, radio ads, tv commercials, ads in the paper and weekly local mags, and I'd get horsemen coming up to me "when are you guys gonna start advertising?"

There are a lot of tracks that just flat out don't market at all or do just the absolute minimum. But there are some that do a really good job IMO.

The hardest thing I always found was not getting people to come out, but getting them to come back. Can't even count the number of friends or acquaintances who would come out to the track, tell me they had an amazing time, and then never come back again.

[EMD4ME]

Why do people go to ballgames, when they can watch from home?

1) They WANT to be there, why?
2) They have the bucks to go.
3) Corporate sponsored tickets.
4) The experience.

If I were in charge, I would:

1) Make sure that in between every race, 4 people from the live crowd were interviewed with their picks for the race. They would be videotaped during the race rooting for their horses. AFTER THE race, a prize would be given to the winners and a conso to the losers. A DVD would be given to them of the video. I would make sure prior "crowd interviewed winners" would be shown over and over and over again.

2) Market to the "afluent". Create a commercial that shows succussful businessperson A VS. busiessperson B. Each businessperson starts with a $1000 voucher. Bets it anyway they like. The winner WINS an EGO BOOSTING commercial on all local TV channels and a trip to Aruba.

3) Have reps that market to local companies. Work out corporate sales, to reward clients. That brings people to the track. Give the attendees a mentor for the day. Give them a voucher. Cost nothing as you already sold a "ticket" from the company.

3A) Every single rotary, non profit, philanthropic organization, chamber etc should be worked on to make sure the next meeting is at NYRA/whatever track.

4) Make it an experience. Give the young guys an attractive female to gawk at (she can be the MC of today's races-walks around interviewing men).

Give the young ladies, a "Watters world" personality who does the same.

Keep it rated G though.

Show people on the video tron. Create moments/memories in between the 1800 seconds between races damn it.

Have SAM shoot out t shirts to the crowd.

Have kids escorted to the jockey's room.

Give out video games of horse racing to the children.

Give out video games of horse racing to the adults.

Have PA stand there and promote PA with the intellectuals/wanna be intellectuals.

Have free handicapping contests, with the prize being a free concert, day with a celebrity.

MAKE SHIT HAPPEN DAMN IT.

SICK OF THE STATUS QUO.

Yesterday, I'm in the Belmont VIP room. 6 pm. 6 of us in there.

I looked around and asked the boys: Did you guys ever realize that if we die, there's absolutely NO ONE in the BIGGEST TRACKS VIP ROOM at 6 PM on a SUNDAY????

[Robert Fischer]

For the casual fan you are trying to attract, how do you get them to the track, and then how do you get them to wager?

The proper marketing strategy for getting people to go to the track is to show people at the track.

A production including actors showing people at the track, and video and a manufactured social media trend would go a long way.


If you have that insight and power, why wouldn't you market something (other than racing) that is actually profitable?

How much revenue would actually be generated from getting some more people to go to the track?

[threegoldstars]

Why do people go to ballgames, when they can watch from home?

1) They WANT to be there, why?
2) They have the bucks to go.
3) Corporate sponsored tickets.
4) The experience.

If I were in charge, I would:

1) Make sure that in between every race, 4 people from the live crowd were interviewed with their picks for the race. They would be videotaped during the race rooting for their horses. AFTER THE race, a prize would be given to the winners and a conso to the losers. A DVD would be given to them of the video. I would make sure prior "crowd interviewed winners" would be shown over and over and over again.

2) Market to the "afluent". Create a commercial that shows succussful businessperson A VS. busiessperson B. Each businessperson starts with a $1000 voucher. Bets it anyway they like. The winner WINS an EGO BOOSTING commercial on all local TV channels and a trip to Aruba.

3) Have reps that market to local companies. Work out corporate sales, to reward clients. That brings people to the track. Give the attendees a mentor for the day. Give them a voucher. Cost nothing as you already sold a "ticket" from the company.

3A) Every single rotary, non profit, philanthropic organization, chamber etc should be worked on to make sure the next meeting is at NYRA/whatever track.

4) Make it an experience. Give the young guys an attractive female to gawk at (she can be the MC of today's races-walks around interviewing men).

Give the young ladies, a "Watters world" personality who does the same.

Keep it rated G though.

Show people on the video tron. Create moments/memories in between the 1800 seconds between races damn it.

Have SAM shoot out t shirts to the crowd.

Have kids escorted to the jockey's room.

Give out video games of horse racing to the children.

Give out video games of horse racing to the adults.

Have PA stand there and promote PA with the intellectuals/wanna be intellectuals.

Have free handicapping contests, with the prize being a free concert, day with a celebrity.

MAKE SHIT HAPPEN DAMN IT.

SICK OF THE STATUS QUO.

Yesterday, I'm in the Belmont VIP room. 6 pm. 6 of us in there.

I looked around and asked the boys: Did you guys ever realize that if we die, there's absolutely NO ONE in the BIGGEST TRACKS VIP ROOM at 6 PM on a SUNDAY????

Why was there an online poker boom? Consider that none of the above existed for online poker players. The reason online poker boomed is because people perceived a chance to win money, either grinding cash games or hitting it big in a tournament. Therein lies the problem with horse racing: it is, in its purest sense, gambling. You know, I know it, everyone that has ever heard of horse racing knows it - you BET on horses. But new people or people that have never played have no perception that if you study hard, you can win money. Thus the game is stagnant.

To add to this, the excuse that the game is "too hard to learn" is utter BS. Poker (Texas Hold'em) while seemingly easy, is a tremendously complicated game, especially cash games, but, people are more than willing to study hard IF they perceive that they have a chance and they did just that with online poker.

Horse racing cannot grow without the PERCEPTION THAT THE GAME CAN BE PROFITABLE. Nothing more and nothing less.

The end.

[EMD4ME]

Lately I've seen a handful of lost souls at Belmont (young millenials). They look totally lost.

A Track chaperone can really make it or break it for some newbies.

[EMD4ME]

Why was there an online poker boom? Consider that none of the above existed for online poker players. The reason online poker boomed is because people perceived a chance to win money, either grinding cash games or hitting it big in a tournament. Therein lies the problem with horse racing: it is, in its purest sense, gambling. You know, I know it, everyone that has ever heard of horse racing knows it - you BET on horses. But new people or people that have n :) ever played have no perception that if you study hard, you can win money. Thus the game is stagnant.

To add to this, the excuse that the game is "too hard to learn" is utter BS. Poker (Texas Hold'em) while seemingly easy, is a tremendously complicated game, especially cash games, but, people are more than willing to study hard IF they perceive that they have a chance and they did just that with online poker.

Horse racing cannot grow without the PERCEPTION THAT THE GAME CAN BE PROFITABLE. Nothing more and nothing less.

The end.

I won't disagree. That was my first post on this topic. market the game as beatable. You vs. The dumb ones out there. It is legal to bet horse racing in many states. Not being advertised appropriately.

The truth is: this is a game where the more you study, the smarter you are, the more disciplined you are, the more you can profit.

I'm sick of the gambling side being suppressed by marketers (there aren't any marketers but you get my point)

[elhelmete]

Santa Anita and Del Mar market the sheet out of themselves, two of the most beautiful places to watch the races year round, and CA racing is still teetering...

Two of the most beautiful places to watch the races year round.

The first visit is the easy one, the second visit is the hardest of all. If you get them for a 3rd, you may have them for life.

[EMD4ME]

Santa Anita and Del Mar market the sheet out of themselves, two of the most beautiful places to watch the races year round, and CA racing is still teetering...

Two of the most beautiful places to watch the races year round.

The first visit is the easy one, the second visit is the hardest of all. If you get them for a 3rd, you may have them for life.

That's why I think the track should have mentors greeting people at the gate.

Gather their names, teach them how to make a solid win bet, show parlay, .10 super play. Maybe have them pool money for a pick 4 ($20 each) and help them construct it.

I have seen newbies bet so destructively, that they have NO SHOT to enjoy this game.

[elhelmete]

Lately I've seen a handful of lost souls at Belmont (young millenials). They look totally lost.

A Track chaperone can really make it or break it for some newbies.

Del Mar was full of lost millennials this summer. I took kind pity upon a couple of them that were in front of me in line, staring blankly at the SAM and helped them understand how to use it to bet. They liked the :4: horse so I suggested a WIN-PLACE and then a $1 exacta keying :4: .

I crossed my fingers that the 4 would come in, and it did, and I said a little prayer to the horseplayer gods that they become lifelong fans.

BTW, both SA and DMR have lots of docents around helping people bet.

[EMD4ME]

Santa Anita and Del Mar market the sheet out of themselves, two of the most beautiful places to watch the races year round, and CA racing is still teetering...

Two of the most beautiful places to watch the races year round.

The first visit is the easy one, the second visit is the hardest of all. If you get them for a 3rd, you may have them for life.

Practice does NOT make perfect.

Advertising does not generate results.

PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect.

PERFECT MARKETING generates results.

[elhelmete]

That's why I think the track should have mentors greeting people at the gate.

Gather their names, teach them how to make a solid win bet, show parlay, .10 super play. Maybe have them pool money for a pick 4 ($20 each) and help them construct it.

I have seen newbies bet so destructively, that they have NO SHOT to enjoy this game.

SA and DMR have lots of them. Also morning seminars right out where everyone ca see them and also hot friggin broads EVERYWHERE. SOrry, had to get that in.... :cool:

[EMD4ME]

Del Mar was full of lost millennials this summer. I took kind pity upon a couple of them that were in front of me in line, staring blankly at the SAM and helped them understand how to use it to bet. They liked the :4: horse so I suggested a WIN-PLACE and then a $1 exacta keying :4: .

I crossed my fingers that the 4 would come in, and it did, and I said a little prayer to the horseplayer gods that they become lifelong fans.

BTW, both SA and DMR have lots of docents around helping people bet.

I did not know that, my apologies if they do.

[EMD4ME]

SA and DMR have lots of them. Also morning seminars right out where everyone ca see them and also hot friggin broads EVERYWHERE. SOrry, had to get that in.... :cool:

SA and DMR have mentors?

[elhelmete]

SA and DMR have mentors?

I've never been to either track and NOT seen someone with a name tag on walking around looking to help with a bet, directions, anything. I've gotten to recognize a bunch of them. They're either volunteers or get a small per diem from the track.

When I take my company out for our yearly outing they provided 3 hosts for our group of about 40.

[EMD4ME]

Another factor (amongst 100 that we can discuss).

Post times. Why are restricted to 12:25 to 7?

Why can't tracks, especially on Wed, Thur and Fri, run at 4 or 5 pm in NY? Please exclude the cold winter months but why can't Belmont run at 5 p.m. on a Wed Thur Fri?

Get some lights already. We have a kazillion stupid racino dollars. Invest with lights.

People work 8-5. They could get to Belmont for the 3rd or 4th race for some happy hour horseracing.

Some blue collar people get out at 2 or 3. They can make a card now, home or at the track.

ADW players can take care of chores all day and play at 5.

Maybe LRL can run at 1. Parx at and NYRA at a later time?

[EMD4ME]

I've never been to either track and NOT seen someone with a name tag on walking around looking to help with a bet, directions, anything. I've gotten to recognize a bunch of them. They're either volunteers or get a small per diem from the track.

When I take my company out for our yearly outing they provided 3 hosts for our group of about 40.

NICE.......I respect that.

[EMD4ME]

Last idea for now:

5 % more payoffs for any wagers ON TRACK.

That would eliminate players who come to the track and bet off of a foreign (non track) ADW.

That would discourage Joe Shmo from betting from home. Spend some money on concessions and more importantly, motivate Joe Shmo to come out and bet on some damn horse racing, instead of maybe not horse playing.

[traynor]

Why was there an online poker boom? Consider that none of the above existed for online poker players. The reason online poker boomed is because people perceived a chance to win money, either grinding cash games or hitting it big in a tournament. Therein lies the problem with horse racing: it is, in its purest sense, gambling. You know, I know it, everyone that has ever heard of horse racing knows it - you BET on horses. But new people or people that have never played have no perception that if you study hard, you can win money. Thus the game is stagnant.

To add to this, the excuse that the game is "too hard to learn" is utter BS. Poker (Texas Hold'em) while seemingly easy, is a tremendously complicated game, especially cash games, but, people are more than willing to study hard IF they perceive that they have a chance and they did just that with online poker.

Horse racing cannot grow without the PERCEPTION THAT THE GAME CAN BE PROFITABLE. Nothing more and nothing less.

The end.

Abso-bleeping-lutely. Well said.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Last idea for now:

5 % more payoffs for any wagers ON TRACK.

That would eliminate players who come to the track and bet off of a foreign (non track) ADW.

That would discourage Joe Shmo from betting from home. Spend some money on concessions and more importantly, motivate Joe Shmo to come out and bet on some damn horse racing, instead of maybe not horse playing.

I have always been a person who believed in lower take for on track wagers. On track the track makes more, plus there will be spend on gate and concessions. Makes all the sense in the world to me.

[maclr11]

I'm not saying I don't like the idea of reduced on track takeout.
But from a business standpoint how is it possible to put into action? Do you have two separate sets of prices? Do you have different pools all together?

There's some serious logistical questions regarding changes like this, and I just wanted to see your answers.

[ronsmac]

I'm not saying I don't like the idea of reduced on track takeout.
But from a business standpoint how is it possible to put into action? Do you have two separate sets of prices? Do you have different pools all together?

There's some serious logistical questions regarding changes like this, and I just wanted to see your answers.I think Hawthorne did something like that a decade or two ago. If I recall correctly the on track takeout was 2% less than off track. I don't know how that worked out for them. For years the nyc otb charged at least a 5% surcharge on bets, so I guess technically nyra gave a discount for betting on track.

[EMD4ME]

I'm not saying I don't like the idea of reduced on track takeout.
But from a business standpoint how is it possible to put into action? Do you have two separate sets of prices? Do you have different pools all together?

There's some serious logistical questions regarding changes like this, and I just wanted to see your answers.

Delaware did it years ago. IMHO, the wrong market to try an excellent idea with. NY is 1 place to try that.

Its easy to do. Set up an internal feed and just plug in the on track prices when they show prices. Show the rest of the world the other prices. (After the race is official).

But with the advertisements of betting apps, adws, I Don't see a track doing this.


Plus, I wouldn't give nyra bets players an extra 5% , if they bet away from the track. Maybe 2%. You only get the 5% if you're at the live track .

Promote the live experience amongst other things.

[lamboguy]

just to give NTRA some credit, they pay the dime unlike anywhere else in the United States. the dime could mean an extra 5 % in your pocket as a horseplayer. it is a very smart move on their part and is a major reason why they haven't gone as bad as other venues.

but i am going to be in repetition, takeout is not the reason for the decrease in handles, the product all over basically sucks and race tracks do a first class job to scare people away from their buildings before the customer's make the first bet.

[rastajenk]

What is so "tremendously complicated" about poker?

[no breathalyzer]

What is so "tremendously complicated" about poker?
Nothing anyone can play poker.. just like anyone can bet a horse.. doesn't mean you will be good at it

[Redboard]

What is so "tremendously complicated" about poker?


It is complicated but once you learned it, you learned it. Playing it at Las Vegas is the same as Atlantic City, or online. You don't have to stay up late the night before and pour over sheets and video.

And there's not a little man sitting on your ace in the hole who decides to tank a hand so his amigos can get a paycheck.

If you enter big tournaments, you do have to study the tendencies of other card players. It's all about who you are playing. Horseplayers have to play other horseplayers true, but we have other crap we have to deal with.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I'm not saying I don't like the idea of reduced on track takeout.
But from a business standpoint how is it possible to put into action? Do you have two separate sets of prices? Do you have different pools all together?

There's some serious logistical questions regarding changes like this, and I just wanted to see your answers.

It can be done with net pool pricing currently. I think it is done already with Canada since the pari mutuel tax is higher in Canada than it is here.

[Jeff P]

I'm not saying I don't like the idea of reduced on track takeout.
But from a business standpoint how is it possible to put into action? Do you have two separate sets of prices? Do you have different pools all together?

There's some serious logistical questions regarding changes like this, and I just wanted to see your answers.

Canadian tracks (Woodbine, Assiniboia Downs, etc.) charge HIGHER takeout to their on track customers who bet into U.S. trifecta and superfecta pools where the takeout is lower.

For example, if an on track bettor at Assiniboia where the triactor takeout is 29.00% bets and hits a trifecta at Keeneland where the takeout is 19.00%:

When that bettor walks up to the window and attempts to collect he isn't paid the trifecta payoff (based on 19.00%) shown on the track video feed that the rest of the world collects.

No.

Instead, Assiniboia gives the player a haircut and pays out based on their own trifecta takeout which is 29.00%.

Woodbine does the same thing.

But that doesn't make it right. It's an absolutely deplorable practice.

In my opinion NO amount of marketing is going to succeed at growing the fan base and handle and revenue and purse money from wagering so long as the type of thinking that endorses practices like this is allowed to continue.

So if we are talking about logistics...

Canadian tracks (Woodbine, Assiniboia, etc.) have already figured out how to gouge their customers by charging HIGHER on track takeout.

How is it that they face "serious logistical questions" regarding changes like this when it comes to offering lower on track takeout?



-jp

.

[maclr11]

Its not as simple as having an in house feed, and a simulcast feed. That's an expensive process to have two signals sent out through RCN.

Logistically cutting takeout on-track also I can't imagine would increase wagering enough to cover the lost income, considering that changing the takeout breakdown is never going to happen. Talking a provincial government or a federal government to lower their cut is not going to happen. So the cut has to come off the racetrack's percentage.

So using an average WPS pool total of 10,000 at 19% the racetrack collects $1070. (10.7%). At 14% the track gets 5.7% or $570. To make this $500 per race back the track would need 87.7% growth to $18771 of just ontrack WPS wagers. I can't possibly imagine a track doing that kind of growth without massive field size growth as well. And to create field size growth, purses would have to significantly increase. So now the racetrack has added more money to pay for a takeout reduction that would need massive handle growth just to be revenue neutral. It's hard to keep the doors open that way.

Yes takeout sucks, and it sucks that Canadian prices aren't as much, it would be great if they were the same. But I do remind you, your playing in Canadian dollars, which are worth 76 cents on the dollar right now.

[lamboguy]

something that i have always wondered about is that the horses are the stars of the sport but they sometimes don't have long career's. why not put some emphasis on the jockeys that ride many years?

[ReplayRandall]

something that i have always wondered about is that the horses are the stars of the sport but they sometimes don't have long career's. why not put some emphasis on the jockeys that ride many years?

In general, most people love animals more than they love humans. The horse will always be the beloved star. You want proof? The next time you see a horse unfortunately breakdown, where does that sick feeling in your stomach come from? Is it the compassion you feel for the horse, or is it for the jockey?

[thaskalos]

In general, most people love animals more than they love humans. The horse will always be the beloved star. You want proof? The next time you see a horse unfortunately breakdown, where does that sick feeling in your stomach come from? Is it the compassion you feel for the horse, or is it for the jockey?

True...but the affection that the bettor holds for the horse seems to have its limitations. At the OTB that I frequent...the predominant cry of the player who holds a ticket as his choice nurses a slim lead down the stretch, goes something like this: "HIT him! Hit him AGAIN!!" :confused:

[ReplayRandall]

True...but the affection that the bettor holds for the horse seems to have its limitations. At the OTB that I frequent...the predominant cry of the player who holds a ticket as his choice nurses a slim lead down the stretch, goes something like this: "HIT him! Hit him AGAIN!!" :confused:

When you're in the Las Vegas race-book of your choosing, maybe the clientele will be different....maybe not...:cool:

[AndyC]

Practice does NOT make perfect.

Advertising does not generate results.

PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect.

PERFECT MARKETING generates results.

You could market buggy whips perfectly and still not see any sales. Your assumption is that horse racing is a competitive product. It's not.

[AndyC]

Last idea for now:

5 % more payoffs for any wagers ON TRACK.

That would eliminate players who come to the track and bet off of a foreign (non track) ADW.

That would discourage Joe Shmo from betting from home. Spend some money on concessions and more importantly, motivate Joe Shmo to come out and bet on some damn horse racing, instead of maybe not horse playing.

So with 90% of the handle coming from off-site you want to take from those players and reward the hardboots who have to be at the track along with the regular group of racetrack deadbeats who have nothing to do but go to the track?

[AndyC]

To add to this, the excuse that the game is "too hard to learn" is utter BS. Poker (Texas Hold'em) while seemingly easy, is a tremendously complicated game, especially cash games, but, people are more than willing to study hard IF they perceive that they have a chance and they did just that with online poker.

Horse racing cannot grow without the PERCEPTION THAT THE GAME CAN BE PROFITABLE. Nothing more and nothing less.

The end.

Horse racing is NOT seemingly easy and easily discourages new players. The fact that Poker can be a complicated game usually doesn't occur to players until they have played enough to make the realization.

[thaskalos]

Horse racing is NOT seemingly easy and easily discourages new players. The fact that Poker can be a complicated game usually doesn't occur to players until they have played enough to make the realization.

Very true. :ThmbUp:

There is nothing more mentally debilitating in gambling than to watch your betting choice finish up the track in race after race. And, in our game....this occurs with alarming regularity even with EXPERIENCED horseplayers.

I am regularly in the company of horse-playing neophytes...and this "WTF-look" that I often see on their faces is unlike anything that I've ever seen around a poker table.

[PaceAdvantage]

Another factor (amongst 100 that we can discuss).

Post times. Why are restricted to 12:25 to 7?

Why can't tracks, especially on Wed, Thur and Fri, run at 4 or 5 pm in NY? Please exclude the cold winter months but why can't Belmont run at 5 p.m. on a Wed Thur Fri?

Get some lights already. We have a kazillion stupid racino dollars. Invest with lights.

People work 8-5. They could get to Belmont for the 3rd or 4th race for some happy hour horseracing.

Some blue collar people get out at 2 or 3. They can make a card now, home or at the track.

ADW players can take care of chores all day and play at 5.

Maybe LRL can run at 1. Parx at and NYRA at a later time?Two words. Harness Racing. I believe there are laws on the books that T-bred races can't be run after a certain time...at least there used to be...

[dilanesp]

A more general comment about lights.

Churchill's lights are the best I have ever seen. Way back when, I found night racing harder to watch (though I did used to go out to Hollywood Park on Friday Nights). The lighting systems were very inconsistent-- there were dark spots on the track, spots where you were looking into the lights themselves, etc. But Churchill figured out that what you need is big tall arc lights that light the whole track evenly.

After seeing Churchill's lights, I am really a strong advocate for night racing. It allows more tracks flexibility, you can run big races in prime time where they can be televised, you can put more races on a card, etc.

I'd really, at the very least, like to see Del Mar and Santa Anita install Churchill's lighting system. Belmont too. Imagine running the Belmont Stakes in prime time?

[thaskalos]

A more general comment about lights.

Churchill's lights are the best I have ever seen. Way back when, I found night racing harder to watch (though I did used to go out to Hollywood Park on Friday Nights). The lighting systems were very inconsistent-- there were dark spots on the track, spots where you were looking into the lights themselves, etc. But Churchill figured out that what you need is big tall arc lights that light the whole track evenly.

After seeing Churchill's lights, I am really a strong advocate for night racing. It allows more tracks flexibility, you can run big races in prime time where they can be televised, you can put more races on a card, etc.

I'd really, at the very least, like to see Del Mar and Santa Anita install Churchill's lighting system. Belmont too. Imagine running the Belmont Stakes in prime time?
And the vast majority of your fans aren't working at their jobs while you are running your races.

[ReplayRandall]

And the vast majority of your fans aren't working at their jobs while you are running your races.

This is exactly what baseball did to actually start growing again, the last to install lights was Wrigley Field.....

[thaskalos]

This is exactly what baseball did to actually start growing again, the last to install lights was Wrigley Field.....

It seems like an easy concept to grasp. There is strong competition for the gambling dollar...so, you change plans and make the game more accessible to your fans. People ask why more people aren't betting on the thoroughbred night tracks that are running NOW. Could it be that the night tracks that are running now are considered "unappetizing" by the majority of the bettors? Can we say that we blame them?

Whom are the premier tracks trying to attract with the racing schedule that they are keeping now? The retirees and the unemployed?

[ReplayRandall]

It seems like an easy concept to grasp. There is strong competition for the gambling dollar...so, you change plans and make the game more accessible to your fans. People ask why more people aren't betting on the thoroughbred night tracks that are running NOW. Could it be that the night tracks that are running now are considered "unappetizing" by the majority of the bettors? Can we say that we blame them?

Whom are the premier tracks trying to attract with the racing schedule that they are keeping now? The retirees and the unemployed?

Could it be that the management of most tracks just want banker's hours of 9 to 5, for their own comfortable lifestyles?

[thaskalos]

Could it be that the management of most tracks just want banker's hours of 9 to 5, for their own comfortable lifestyles?

Not to worry. I suspect that they'll soon have all the time off that they want.

[ReplayRandall]

Not to worry. I suspect that they'll soon have all the time off that they want.

They'll become retirees themselves, taking buses to the Indian casinos for their entertainment, since that's all that's left....

[thaskalos]

They'll become retirees themselves, taking buses to the Indian casinos for their entertainment, since that's all that's left....

And, as the late Robert Goren so wisely stated..."One day, some crooner will be belting out, 'there once was a racetrack over here'".

[Robert Fischer]

If you want better marketing, you have to market better.

Not lights, not takeout, - better marketing.

[thaskalos]

If you want better marketing, you have to market better.

Not lights, not takeout, - better marketing.

And, if you want to have "better marketing"...then you must also have a worthwhile product to take to the marketplace.

[Robert Fischer]

And, if you want to have "better marketing"...then you must also have a worthwhile product to take to the marketplace.

That's part of the problem, the elite marketers that could actually significantly improve horse racing, make a far better living at their current (better than horse racing) projects.

[thaskalos]

That's part of the problem, the elite marketers that could actually significantly improve horse racing, make a far better living at their current (better than horse racing) projects.

Can you blame them? Only the captains go down with the ship.

[thaskalos]

Have any of the racetracks tried allocating some of that casino-generated profit to fund something like a weekly on-site handicapping tournament, with a decent prize structure? It seems to me that an event like that, if properly marketed...might help generate a little interest in those museums that our racetracks have recently become.

I've seen my local OTB run the occasional handicapping contest...but the winner always gets something like $48.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Delaware does a monthly contest, which is fairly well attended. I think it helps on-track attendance, but it probably doesn't attract new players. I still think it's a good marketing tool, so I'd like to see more of it.

[cj]

Seriously, look around at the product being offered at most places these days. How can you possibly market some of these race cards?

[thaskalos]

Seriously, look around at the product being offered at most places these days. How can you possibly market some of these race cards?

The impossible dream...

[SG4]

In regards to night racing, do the tracks who regularly do this have training hours much later in the day as well? Seems cruel to all backstretch participants if you're working 7 days a week, and now you've got to get training sessions going around 6 AM & then be awake as well to who knows what time at night if you've got a horse going in the races as well. I guess the horses are pretty adaptable as well, must be weird training every day of their life at the crack of dawn, and then show time comes in the middle of the night.

[Garyinseattle]

Seriously, look around at the product being offered at most places these days. How can you possibly market some of these race cards?


Call me crazy but IMHO there is going to have to be an elimination of a lot of these small tracks to deal with the declining field sizes/horse population. Have one major track in each area. Get rid of Delaware, Parx, Charlestown, Mountaineer and have em all run at Laurel. Could have much bigger fields and probably run a solid 5 days a week. Would be much better off for the bettors, who in reality, control how things play out. Would probably have huge handles and create some great stakes days at the host track.

Do the same thing in NY area. Close Monmouth, Finger Lakes (and the mentioned Parx) and have them all run at Belmont.


Like you said, the product being offered in some areas are horrific. Right now, outside of Belmont on Wed/Thursday, the weekdays are brutal. Even some of those cards are less than stellar.

[SuperPickle]

Call me crazy but IMHO there is going to have to be an elimination of a lot of these small tracks to deal with the declining field sizes/horse population. Have one major track in each area. Get rid of Delaware, Parx, Charlestown, Mountaineer and have em all run at Laurel. Could have much bigger fields and probably run a solid 5 days a week. Would be much better off for the bettors, who in reality, control how things play out. Would probably have huge handles and create some great stakes days at the host track.

Do the same thing in NY area. Close Monmouth, Finger Lakes (and the mentioned Parx) and have them all run at Belmont.


Like you said, the product being offered in some areas are horrific. Right now, outside of Belmont on Wed/Thursday, the weekdays are brutal. Even some of those cards are less than stellar.

Contraction is something that has to happen. No one can make a rational argument to keep all these tracks open. The lone exception is horseman. They love small fields. Smaller fields equal easier checks.

[whodoyoulike]

In regards to night racing, do the tracks who regularly do this have training hours much later in the day as well? Seems cruel to all backstretch participants if you're working 7 days a week, and now you've got to get training sessions going around 6 AM & then be awake as well to who knows what time at night if you've got a horse going in the races as well. I guess the horses are pretty adaptable as well, must be weird training every day of their life at the crack of dawn, and then show time comes in the middle of the night.

I seem to recall this exact same concern when Hol started Friday night racing years ago but it was only one day a week and I don't think they changed morning workout times. There are tracks which run night racing, I think one is Hou.

Does anyone know how they schedule morning workouts?

[whodoyoulike]

Call me crazy but IMHO there is going to have to be an elimination of a lot of these small tracks to deal with the declining field sizes/horse population. Have one major track in each area. Get rid of Delaware, Parx, Charlestown, Mountaineer and have em all run at Laurel. Could have much bigger fields and probably run a solid 5 days a week. Would be much better off for the bettors, who in reality, control how things play out. Would probably have huge handles and create some great stakes days at the host track.

Do the same thing in NY area. Close Monmouth, Finger Lakes (and the mentioned Parx) and have them all run at Belmont.


Like you said, the product being offered in some areas are horrific. Right now, outside of Belmont on Wed/Thursday, the weekdays are brutal. Even some of those cards are less than stellar.

There are a lot of people (and I mean a lot) on here who have been advocating a reduction in the number of tracks running for years now and throw in takeout reductions while we're at it.

I don't really understand because so many tracks have been complaining about low handles but no one seems to want to give up their piece of the pie.

I think some of the opposition to the idea are the government racing commissions in the various states because it will also impact the tax revenues in the cities and towns where tracks operate. Add, the employment issue provided by racing product by each track. Plus the fact most if not all racing commissions are financially funded by track takeout. I've read in Cali's CHRB annual report that they report the shortfall coverage from the takeouts.

So, despite the fact that closures would be good in the long run IMO, we'll probably have to wait for the tracks to close due to economics or like the soon to be operating Calder model so there's no finger pointing.

[Redboard]

I enjoy racing under the sun—and want no part of attending a track in the evening. I would hate to see racing go the way of MLB, with virtually all games under the lights.

However, I understand that it needs to get a younger crowd. Weekday attendance are mostly old guys who have nothing better to do than hang out at the track. These guys probably wouldn’t be there at night, including myself.

[Saratoga_Mike]

In regards to night racing, do the tracks who regularly do this have training hours much later in the day as well? Seems cruel to all backstretch participants if you're working 7 days a week, and now you've got to get training sessions going around 6 AM & then be awake as well to who knows what time at night if you've got a horse going in the races as well. I guess the horses are pretty adaptable as well, must be weird training every day of their life at the crack of dawn, and then show time comes in the middle of the night.

I can only speak to CT and my info is a bit dated, but I'd be surprised if it has changed. They follow the same morning schedule as other tracks (realize every track may have slightly different training hours, give or take 30 mins). I never heard anyone complain about it at CT, beyond the usual backstretch complaints about everything (can't blame them...tough work). But if a track tried to convert from day racing to all-night racing (CT has raced nights for a long time), I'm sure there would be objections based on your above concerns.

[Hapman]

I enjoy racing under the sun—and want no part of attending a track in the evening. I would hate to see racing go the way of MLB, with virtually all games under the lights.

However, I understand that it needs to get a younger crowd. Weekday attendance are mostly old guys who have nothing better to do than hang out at the track. These guys probably wouldn’t be there at night, including myself.

Weekends are fine to run in the day, but weekdays like you said are sparsely attended and the only people there are the retired old guys. I like racing, but I have a job and I would be far more likely to go to the track on a weekday if they were running at night.

It's a shame because I live and work like fifteen minutes from Arlington, so if they had weekday night cards I would probably attend most of them. But Thursdays they start at 1:15, and Fridays 3:15. Even with the 3:15 start by the time I could finish work and get there and inside there's only 2 races or so left.

Apparently AP has asked for 3 twilight programs for next year which is a nice start, but in my opinion their Thursday and Fridays should always start late.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I am a fan of night racing since I am in the southwest now, but on the weekends if I am attending live I prefer the day.

The smaller tracks have to position themselves accordingly. There is a reason most tracks at night are harness. The few tbred tracks that run at that time frame do so because they face little competition from bigger tracks that run during the day. Add to that they can capture some of the west coast market.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Add to that, the meadowlands runs the Hambletonian during the day because the Hambletonian society requires it do so. Yonkers has carded some racing during the day and at a distance of 1 1/16ths mile to cater to the international crowd.

[Garyinseattle]

Contraction is something that has to happen. No one can make a rational argument to keep all these tracks open. The lone exception is horseman. They love small fields. Smaller fields equal easier checks.

Exactly. Hell, I would love it if there were enough horses to fill up every track. Would be great having 12 tracks on a Saturday with all full fields. But that ain't happening. Instead we have a watered down product.

Sure the horsemen love it. You get a certain few trainers at these dumpy tracks like MNR, Parx,Del.......who just scoop up all the pursues....but at some point the betting at these places will trickle down to nothing leaving the tracks with no real money to fund their cards...

[Garyinseattle]

There are a lot of people (and I mean a lot) on here who have been advocating a reduction in the number of tracks running for years now and throw in takeout reductions while we're at it.

I don't really understand because so many tracks have been complaining about low handles but no one seems to want to give up their piece of the pie.

I think some of the opposition to the idea are the government racing commissions in the various states because it will also impact the tax revenues in the cities and towns where tracks operate. Add, the employment issue provided by racing product by each track. Plus the fact most if not all racing commissions are financially funded by track takeout. I've read in Cali's CHRB annual report that they report the shortfall coverage from the takeouts.

So, despite the fact that closures would be good in the long run IMO, we'll probably have to wait for the tracks to close due to economics or like the soon to be operating Calder model so there's no finger pointing.


Don't all these smaller tracks with Casino money coming in HAVE to run races to get those proceeds? I know there is a bill in FL that keeps coming up that would allow the tracks to end live racing but keep the casino aspect.If that passes all the dog tracks would end live racing, as would Pompano. Obviously GP aint going anywhere.

But if this same type of bill hits Delaware,Pennsylvania,West Virginia....etc.....live racing will end immediately. Maybe this bill would be a good thing huh ?

[AndyC]

Contraction is something that has to happen. No one can make a rational argument to keep all these tracks open. The lone exception is horseman. They love small fields. Smaller fields equal easier checks.


How would contraction affect the breeders? Would they breed more horses or less horses? What would happen to all the horses who couldn't cut it at the super tracks? Where would a young jockey or trainer learn the trade? The minor league tracks serve a purpose. Contraction may have be a very short term fix but soon all other areas of the sport will also contract and the product will be no better but you will have less of it.

[the little guy]

How would contraction affect the breeders? Would they breed more horses or less horses? What would happen to all the horses who couldn't cut it at the super tracks? Where would a young jockey or trainer learn the trade? The minor league tracks serve a purpose. Contraction may have be a very short term fix but soon all other areas of the sport will also contract and the product will be no better but you will have less of it.

I'm glad someone brought this up.

A dramatic contraction would have huge ripple affects throughout the industry. It's an eco-system, and things don't happen independently.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Nobody works together and looks out for #1 is the problem. A state like NY works because the big 3 meets don't run against each other and having a minor track like Finger Lakes works because it provides a place for less talented but bettable horses a place to compete. There is a AAA minor league team in Rochester NY, they sure aren't affecting the Yankees draw!

But in my state River Downs(now Belterra) and Thistledown race head and head during the spring and summer and both suffer and they are the same type of track. It makes no sense. If states can't coordinate this to work in their own backyard some kind of regional or national gameplan will never work.

But there is nothing to fear. What I am witnessing in Cincinnati is a complete non effort to make the racing product better. Hell they slashed purses halfway through their 1st meet! The casinos got their foot in the door and will run the racing into the ground. The biggest problem my home track has more than a poorly laid out facility and no effort at all towards the racing side is they have the same condition book they have had in my 20 years. But worse they cut out the starter allowance races and open claimers that will attract some better barns so it's basically a welfare system not just for Ohio horses but the dregs of the bunch. They write plenty of races and have the purses that fuel the state breeding program but most of the races are written for horses that haven't won in 2-3 years. I like as a handicapper the maiden to lifetime series of races but if somebody owns an older multiple winner they can come here and go through the time condition races and have to leave because there are no starter or allowance races to move on towards. Anyway this is just my take on my home town and state.

Contraction does need to happen. But that could simply mean a smarter schedule not just closing racetracks.

[cj]

I'm glad someone brought this up.

A dramatic contraction would have huge ripple affects throughout the industry. It's an eco-system, and things don't happen independently.

Drastic, no, but contraction is needed. There aren't enough horses bred now to fill races at most places. Weekday cards are brutal most days at most tracks. No way the product is good for the sport.

Not many tracks need to be closed. Tracks need to work together to reduce competition with each other by reducing days and overlapping meets. But I'll probably be long gone before that ever happens.

[onefast99]

Drastic, no, but contraction is needed. There aren't enough horses bred now to fill races at most places. Weekday cards are brutal most days at most tracks. No way the product is good for the sport.

Not many tracks need to be closed. Tracks need to work together to reduce competition with each other by reducing days and overlapping meets. But I'll probably be long gone before that ever happens.
Drazin tried to work with Parx but that didn't pan out. NYRA is in no hurry to bail out anyone else nor should they be.

[cj]

Drazin tried to work with Parx but that didn't pan out. NYRA is in no hurry to bail out anyone else nor should they be.

Of course NYRA shouldn't cut back.

Nothing will happen until slots welfare goes away at tracks that can't support themselves with racing. Some will adapt and survive, others will perish.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Of course NYRA shouldn't cut back.

Nothing will happen until slots welfare goes away at tracks that can't support themselves with racing. Some will adapt and survive, others will perish.

Yeah that's going to be an eye opener for horsemen when they realized they made a deal with the devil and kick them out with state approval.

[Hapman]

Drastic, no, but contraction is needed. There aren't enough horses bred now to fill races at most places. Weekday cards are brutal most days at most tracks. No way the product is good for the sport.

Not many tracks need to be closed. Tracks need to work together to reduce competition with each other by reducing days and overlapping meets. But I'll probably be long gone before that ever happens.

Yes, even if there is no actual concerted effort at contraction per se, it's going to happen naturally. There are too many days, too many races, not enough horses, and not enough interest in the sport to sustain what is currently going on.

[ReplayRandall]

Yes, even if there is no actual concerted effort at contraction per se, it's going to happen naturally. There are too many days, too many races, not enough horses, and not enough interest in the sport to sustain what is currently going on.
In case you're interested in a conversation about contraction, here's a thread I started 2 years ago...BTW, welcome to PA, Hapman:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116948

[whodoyoulike]

How would contraction affect the breeders? Would they breed more horses or less horses? What would happen to all the horses who couldn't cut it at the super tracks? Where would a young jockey or trainer learn the trade? The minor league tracks serve a purpose. Contraction may have be a very short term fix but soon all other areas of the sport will also contract and the product will be no better but you will have less of it.

I interpreted his post that there hasn't been enough "A" track type horses running for a number of years now. He wasn't suggesting to eliminate the "minor league tracks". But rather there should be enough tracks which can support full competitive fields for the various levels i.e., A, B, C and D level tracks. I even think the "A" tracks should only run a couple times a week at only one or two tracks at a time. Maybe, even ten races or so per day at each track when they do run.

Obviously, it also means there are only a certain number of "A", "B" etc., tracks available. I don't see how going this route would affect the breeders. And, it shouldn't affect the number of horses who can't cut it at the super tracks since the objective is to match the number of tracks to the available horse population. The questions regarding young jockeys or trainers may not be as drastic as you suspect. But, I can see some impact especially the young trainers.

[1GCFAN]

How do you market a product that has their big names running every 2-3 months?

I read last weeks article in the DRF Harness Racing newsletter about the lack of marketing for a sport that has its stars running every week of the summer!

People don't care about horse racing anymore.

[Hapman]

In case you're interested in a conversation about contraction, here's a thread I started 2 years ago...BTW, welcome to PA, Hapman:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116948

Thanks! I will definitely read through that thread.

[CincyHorseplayer]

How do you market a product that has their big names running every 2-3 months?

I read last weeks article in the DRF Harness Racing newsletter about the lack of marketing for a sport that has its stars running every week of the summer!

People don't care about horse racing anymore.

While big names are "A" draw we need to get away from the concept that they are the only draw. On a single race basis I think they represent one of the poorest bets in racing. Sure as a single in a pick something or on top of underrated contenders it can be done. But most of our stars we watch and don't play. They aren't going to put $ into the pools once newcomers realize this.

[SuperPickle]

I'm glad someone brought this up.

A dramatic contraction would have huge ripple affects throughout the industry. It's an eco-system, and things don't happen independently.

Yeah but an economist would tell you this is the problem with an industry propped up by welfare. its an artificial market. You have so much of the purses generated by casino money and third party monies. In a free market the volume of horses would be more in-line with the number of tracks. Subsidies allow tracks to card races that probably shouldn't exist.

Look at this way. The foal crop is less than 50% of what is was in 1990. You've lost half the horses in less than 25 years. While we've lost some tracks in that time (Hialeah, Hollywood, AC, Bay Meadows, etc) you've probably gained more (all the Texas tracks, Presque Isle, Emerald, Kentucky Downs, Zia.)

So yeah any time you try and bring true market conditions into an artificial market its ugly but you can't let that stop it.

You need less tracks.