why do i never see this?

[EMD4ME]

Why do I feel like I have rarely seen a jock sit tucked in a pocket position (rating behind a leader) when they are sitting a loose second? Why do most jocks pull a horse out and sit 2 wide stalking the loose leader in most turf routes when there is no one else there to keep them tucked in?

I ask this because most turf horses like to sit tucked, angle out in to the lane after sitting tucked and comfortable and storm home. I have seen countless horses sit two wide but lose their burst as they become headstrong sitting 2 wide.

I like the chalk (#2)in race 2 Friday at aqueduct but I can see it happening. The 3 gets the lead, no one else has any positional speed, so the 2 becomes the outside stalker.

Orion Moon's best races were when she was off a beat slow, tucked, bottled up her run and uncorked with a huge run when let loose. Her worst races so far have been when she's had anything but that trip (last race-on lead-did the boggy Turf hurt that day? 2) 3 wide trip undrafted at the Spa last year and 3) her first NA start when she was undrafted 4 wide and was all out to preserve a head lead that she earned over a horse she passed at the 1/8 pole.

There is no speed in Friday's third. She projects to sit second behind shug's horse. In my perfect world, another horse would go early and keep her bottled in a pocket, so she could explode out at the 3/16. Looking at the field, no one else has positional speed. I can see it happening now. Shug's horse hits the lead, Irad moves 2 wide around the Clubhouse turn and goes undrafted the whole way.

Why do I rarely see a jock in a turf route just sit second on the rail, save all the ground on both turns, keep your horse covered up by sitting directly behind the leader, tip out at the 1/4 and explode home?

Why do 98 out of 100 sit 2 wide around both turns undrafted?

This horse is best when pocketed or at the very least covered up in some other position.

I'm eager to see what trip Irad chooses and what her burst will be if she does sit second.

I almost hope to see her break a step slow again, sit tucked and rocket home.....

Finally, here's 1 example of what I want to see.... May 25, 2014 Belmont Race 8. Sea Queen gets cleared into the Clubhouse turn. Jock has no one to his outside as he sits second but he does the intelligent thing.... sits drafting behind the leader. Ironically, this horse wins at a huge price. IMHO, Sea Queen does not win that race if he moves to a 2 wide stalk at the 7/8. Great ride.

[Greyfox]

Why do I feel like I have rarely seen a jock sit tucked in a pocket position (rating behind a leader) when they are sitting a loose second? Why do most jocks pull a horse out and sit 2 wide stalking the loose leader in most turf routes when there is no one else there to keep them tucked in?

.

Stop right there.

Are the jocks pulling them out or is the angular momentum from centripital force on the turn causing these accelerating steeds to pull them out?
Cratos a contributor to this this board might be offer a better answer than the rest of us.

Suggestion: PM Cratos

Otherwise, carry on.

[Stillriledup]

I think its a pretty rare occasion when you'll see a jock attempt something innovative and clever. Mostly, they'll just get aboard, try and stay in the clear, not have a concept of ground loss and most of all, put themselves to NOT be criticized for getting boxed in. They won't be criticized if they draft off the leader, in the air, while losing ground and if the horse doesn't run past and win, the jock won't get blamed, people will just figure the horse wasn't fast enough.

When you watch replays very carefully you will notice jocks not even knowing their odds a lot of the time. It should be a snowy day in August in Miami when a jock on a longshot is not pulling an "arcangues" and saving ground on both turns trying to get lucky. I can't stand betting longshots and having jocks ride like they're on 8-5 shots keeping the horse as wide as possible not realizing their only real shot is to save ground all the way.

If i was going to defend this type of ride, i would say that some horses might lose their air if the jock is wrangling the horse in behind rivals, so in some instances, depending on the jock, the horse and how professional the horse happens to be, its probably better to be in the clear and not have to worry if the jock is going to grab the horse too much. A lot of these horses are very finicky and weak mentally and if you grab into them, they can't fight back, they don't have another move, so you have to get them in the air and let them roll....so, it depends on the horse, some horses could sit and stay tucked in and that bravens them up, some are chicken hearts and if you hold them too hard, or overrate them, they won't be as effective.

[Spiderman]

In turf races, its important to have a running lane. Waiting for an opening in the stretch is problematic. The jockey on a tractable runner like Orion Moon, would steer to the outside of the projected lone speed, Party Now, to apply pressure and establish a running lane.

The upcoming race in question is a 6-horse field with an E-type runner #3, an EP #2, all others are S-types. It practically looks like a match race. To allow the #3 loose on the lead with none other than one of the best front runner jockeys of all time, would be game-set-match.

[BIG49010]

I think the question is will a front runner cave with a horse behind them, or is it necessary to be at his neck to complete the job.

Perhaps "The Little Guy" can ask the Mig?

[davew]

because horses like to run together and most jockeys will not fight what the horse wants to do

[jballscalls]

is there any kind of kickback on the grass?

[cj]

is there any kind of kickback on the grass?

No, not very often.

Personally, I think horses do gain something by drafting behind others than racing out in the clear, but that is obviously negated somewhat on dirt by kickback.

[Bettowin]

Check the wind. If there is a strong headwind on the backstretch I would hope the jock will tuck back.

[Cratos]

Stop right there.

Are the jocks pulling them out or is the angular momentum from centripital force on the turn causing these accelerating steeds to pull them out?
Cratos a contributor to this this board might be offer a better answer than the rest of us.

Suggestion: PM Cratos

Otherwise, carry on.
You are correct about horses on turf courses. Because turf courses are inside of the main track (except Woodbine) they are smaller race courses with smaller turn radii than their main track counterpart; hence a greater side force in the turns.

[Cratos]

No, not very often.

Personally, I think horses do gain something by drafting behind others than racing out in the clear, but that is obviously negated somewhat on dirt by kickback.
Not true, the kickback phenomena and the draft phenomena in horseracing is like apples and oranges; they are both fruits, but taste very different.

Kickback is a mechanical resultant of. the horse's hooves contact with the racing surface and is a function of the racing surface quality and maintenance.

Drafting is an aerodynamic resultant of the lead horse's velocity and is a function of the trailing horse distance proximity and alignment with the lead horse.

[Cratos]

Check the wind. If there is a strong headwind on the backstretch I would hope the jock will tuck back.

Headwinds don't necessarily have to be on the backstretch of a racetrack to have a negative effect because headwinds on any part of the racetrack is a "collision force" to the horse's motion regardless of the wind velocity.

It should be noted here that I am speaking of "surface winds" not "aerial winds".

This is where some horseplayers get in trouble with their wind calculations. They Look at flags on poles at the racetrack or the bending of top of trees which are not the same forces as the wind velocity at the racetrack ground surface.

The calculations of the surface wind impact on a racing horse is nontrivial and can be mathematically challenging for some.

Also tailwinds has very little affect on the racehorse because typically a horse. is running at a velocity greater than the wind velocity and the curved shape of the horse from the rear don't provide a good barrier for the wind to exert its force.

[cj]

Not true, the kickback phenomena and the draft phenomena in horseracing is like apples and oranges; they are both fruits, but taste very different.

Kickback is a mechanical resultant of. the horse's hooves contact with the racing surface and is a function of the racing surface quality and maintenance.

Drafting is an aerodynamic resultant of the lead horse's velocity and is a function of the trailing horse distance proximity and alignment with the lead horse.

I know what they are. I think one cancels out the benefit of the other on dirt. I have no proof, but then again, neither do you.

[Cratos]

I know what they are. I think one cancels out the benefit of the other on dirt. I have no proof, but then again, neither do you.
Yes I do and the proof is in the science of physics, kickback (the mechanics of physics) and drafting (the aerodynamics of physics).

I am not here to argue something that is easily proven. I You want to promote your conclusion with anecdotal evidence and hyperbole be my guest.

[EMD4ME]

Stop right there.

Are the jocks pulling them out or is the angular momentum from centripital force on the turn causing these accelerating steeds to pull them out?
Cratos a contributor to this this board might be offer a better answer than the rest of us.

Suggestion: PM Cratos

Otherwise, carry on.

I'm referring to jocks who proactively pull and steer their mounts to the two path to stalk the loose leader. Not the ones who are 'floating two wide' on the turn due to centripetal forces.

Just to be clear.

Thanks for the feedback... I respect cratos' and many other's thoughts.

[EMD4ME]

In turf races, its important to have a running lane. Waiting for an opening in the stretch is problematic. The jockey on a tractable runner like Orion Moon, would steer to the outside of the projected lone speed, Party Now, to apply pressure and establish a running lane.

The upcoming race in question is a 6-horse field with an E-type runner #3, an EP #2, all others are S-types. It practically looks like a match race. To allow the #3 loose on the lead with none other than one of the best front runner jockeys of all time, would be game-set-match.

Generally, I agree but after watching every one of Orion Moon's turf races over and over and over and taking into account that day's competition and pace dynamics, this horse is always better suited to a draft and uncork run.

Hence why I'd love too see a trip where he get's that scenario.

Ironically, Irad gave Sea Queen the trip I want to see in the race I mentioned. He refused to stalk two wide despite there being no one there to cover him in.

A great ride.

[cj]

Yes I do and the proof is in the science of physics, kickback (the mechanics of physics) and drafting (the aerodynamics of physics).

I am not here to argue something that is easily proven. I You want to promote your conclusion with anecdotal evidence and hyperbole be my guest.

I'd love to see the physics of how much kickback slows a horse, particularly since not all horses react the same to it. This should be good, thanks in advance.

[Greyfox]

I'd love to see the physics of how much kickback slows a horse, particularly since not all horses react the same to it. This should be good, thanks in advance.

I won't pretend to know the physics on this, but on a sloppy track horses certainly don't like mud in their eyes and early speed does well.

Two months ago I watched cyclists race where part of the race was on gravel roads. There was quite a bit of kickback, but the cyclists still kept drafting.
So if I were to take a stab at this, I'd guess that drafting offers a greater advantage than the resistance from kickback.
But that's just a guess, so I'd like to see the answer to this question as well.

[EMD4ME]

So....Irad gets pocketed early and makes a bonehead move on the backstretch.... :bang: :bang: :bang:

Presumably (can't get into jockey's brains, assuming they do possess one) he felt the oncoming 1 and 5 mid race moving and/or he thought the 3 was getting away so he decided to vacate the drafting pocket and chase mid back stretch.

After shooting his bullets from the 9/16 to the 1/4 he was done.

Not saying the result would've been different but the point of this thread is knowing your horse and getting the trip the horse has exhibited to need.

If Irad stayed on the rail ( continued to draft and corked the energy into a 3/16 angle out), the 1 and 5 would've made their futile mid race challenges and teetered out by the 1/4. Then Irad could've angled out and had a chance to win. At the very least he finishes well and probably gets second.

Nevertheless. In my opinion, he didn't give his horse the best chance to win. He didn't prepare enough (knowing his horse), he was instructed to do so (in this specific case the trainer didn't know his horse) AND/OR he just doesn't like a wet turf course. If he didn't like the wet course, I would not have minded if he gave his horse the best ride and lost.

It's times like this that give me ZERO confidence in any active jock.

As great as he was on Sea Queen back in may at Belmont, his decision here was extremely lacking.