Remington Park GM on why revenue is down

[cj]

But Wells said some of horse racing’s stiffest competition, both locally and nationally, comes from illegal sports betting operations and illegal gaming machines that aren’t even included in the almanac’s revenue report.

“It’s like the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about,” he said. “There’s thousands of those things in the state and in other states that operate on a wink and a nod and apparently escape the attention of regulators and law enforcement authorities. ... They pretend to have a license. They put a fake stamp on them and they hide them away in the truck stops and the convenience stores.”

“At one time, they said there were 5,500 of them in Oklahoma City,” Wells said. “I don’t know what the number would be now.”

Seriously? This guy thinks people will come flocking back to the track if illegal gambling machines are eliminated. I didn't think it was possible for someone to be that out of touch with reality and hold a real job.

[Stillriledup]

Wow, that's kind of embarrassing. Maybe he should have waited till April 1st to release that statement, than he might have been able to get away with it.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Best of all, he considers it an "elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about".

More of the same - racing's problems are all external. I'll give him credit, that's a creative one. Luckily for him, most of his horsemen will probably think what a golly good observation he made. Unfortunately for his employer and everyone else, he's another guy looking for a fall guy that can't laugh at him.

[maddog42]

Perhaps the 100+ legal Indian Casinos (in Oklahoma) had more to do with it.
Perhaps the tigers odds (high takeout) in horse racing had more to do with it.
Perhaps the stupidity of the Industry that has one of the most entertaining
sports/gambling activities on the planet has more to do with it.
Perhaps the rampant use of illegal drugs in the industry has more to do with it.
These are the real reasons that the handle is down.

[DeltaLover]

Nuhh, I do no think that this guy's claims are any valid. Judging from the horse gamblers I know, I think it is next impossible for them to prefer betting machines or even sports instead of horses... Something else must be going wrong :confused:

[Stillriledup]

Perhaps the 100+ legal Indian Casinos (in Oklahoma) had more to do with it.
Perhaps the tigers odds (high takeout) in horse racing had more to do with it.
Perhaps the stupidity of the Industry that has one of the most entertaining
sports/gambling activities on the planet has more to do with it.
Perhaps the rampant use of illegal drugs in the industry has more to do with it.
These are the real reasons that the handle is down.

You forgot the 2 best excuses in the book, the weather and the economy!

[JustRalph]

Yep, all that money he is losing from the VFW and Moose lodge is an unfair disadvantage :bang: :bang:

That's usually where you find those machines

[tanner12oz]

Nobody knows Remington park even exists maybe that's the problem

[jk3521]

A real"horseplayer" wouldn't choose another type of gambling over horseracing. The problem is that fewer newer gamblers are interested in horse racing. Too much time between races, too much thought put into your wagers.

I remember years ago someone complained to me of too much time between races and tried to tout me to betting Jai-Alai because there were only 5-7 minutes between games,more action. Well 30 years later horseracing is still here , but Jai-alai is about gone.

[Stillriledup]

A real"horseplayer" wouldn't choose another type of gambling over horseracing. The problem is that fewer newer gamblers are interested in horse racing. Too much time between races, too much thought put into your wagers.

I remember years ago someone complained to me of too much time between races and tried to tout me to betting Jai-Alai because there were only 5-7 minutes between games,more action. Well 30 years later horseracing is still here , but Jai-alai is about gone.

The too much time thing is a pre-simo excuse, now you have all the action you need, if you need to bet a horse race every 5 mins, you can.

[jk3521]

The too much time thing is a pre-simo excuse, now you have all the action you need, if you need to bet a horse race every 5 mins, you can.
But you still have to take the time to handicap and structure your wages.

Today's gambler wants to walk in off the street and place bets, no handicapping , blind betting,a quick rush.

[Stillriledup]

But you still have to take the time to handicap and structure your wages.

Today's gambler wants to walk in off the street and place bets, no handicapping , blind betting,a quick rush.

Quick pick! :ThmbUp:

[jk3521]

Quick pick! :ThmbUp:
Got me there! :D

[affirmedny]

I play there. The product has not been as good the last 2 years as it was previously, period.

[cj]

I play there. The product has not been as good the last 2 years as it was previously, period.

Like most tracks with purses too big for the quality of horses, it is dominated by a few trainers that are way "better" than everyone else and the pools are minuscule and subject to huge after the bell odds swings.

The facility itself is nice, it is one of the few racinos I've been to where it is harder to find the machines than the track. But in the end, without slots subsidies, it would be gone.

[cj]

This was published in Sunday paper: http://newsok.com/article/5366859

[thaskalos]

Seriously? This guy thinks people will come flocking back to the track if illegal gambling machines are eliminated. I didn't think it was possible for someone to be that out of touch with reality and hold a real job.
Horse racing is the only business where the GM is less informed about the nature of things than the janitor of the joint.

[ronsmac]

I play there. The product has not been as good the last 2 years as it was previously, period.
I don't bet their races, but it seems the fields are much smaller than i remember.

[Track Phantom]

I noticed two guys rolling dice in the alley. I'm quite certain that had as much of an impact. Or maybe it is the local Bingo Hall. I noticed there were 33 people in there. All of them would be at Remington Park if it weren't for the Bingo Hall.

C'mon.....is this for real? This clown is actually saying this stuff with a straight face? Who the hell is overseeing the tracks and the game, in general? Wow...Impossible to believe.

[Tom]

I don't bet their races, but it seems the fields are much smaller than i remember.

Small is a key word for racing - small fields, small crowd,s small minds running things. Does any other industry have as many idiots in charge of things as racing does?

[affirmedny]

I don't bet their races, but it seems the fields are much smaller than i remember.

And LOTS of odds on favorites

[Grits]

http://newsok.com/horse-racing-in-oklahoma-battles-stiff-competition-for-gaming-dollars/article/5365248

The state has 120 (legal) casinos with how many racetracks? And this guy thinks the elephant in the room is illegal sports betting and illegal gaming machines in back rooms and convenient marts?

How can racing compete with this many casinos in Oklahoma or, for that matter, any state? Its not possible, not in the long term.

[cj]

And LOTS of odds on favorites

I tried to seriously follow it this year, but it just isn't bettable for a serious player. The pools are too small and the odds swings huge after the bell.

[TJDave]

Nobody knows Remington park even exists maybe that's the problem

I was there opening day and most racing days for the first six years. The people were wall to wall. Food was good, service excellent, racing competitive, horsemen and fans were treated well, large pools, huge carryovers.

How did they F that up?

[NJ Stinks]

This was published in Sunday paper: http://newsok.com/article/5366859

Well said. :ThmbUp:

[Prairie Bettor]

from the article:

“We’re a top 10 or top 15 facility in the country,” Wells said.

:lol:

[Steve 'StatMan']

Small is a key word for racing - small fields, small crowd,s small minds running things. Does any other industry have as many idiots in charge of things as racing does?

Yes, but Off Topic is where, by good rule, the only place we talk government and politics.

[proximity]

... How can racing compete with this many casinos in Oklahoma or, for that matter, any state? Its not possible, not in the long term.

"make yourself aware of your own weaknesses, as well as those of your opponents. the good one try to cover theirs up. the great ones use theirs. use your weakness." --f. murray abraham (by the sword)

our weakness is the ridiculously high takeout and we can use this by giving back much higher player rewards than the (lower takeout) casinos can.

aggressive comps/player rewards get players coming back to your track/casino. people want to feel appreciated.

for a real life example, see page 29+ in my poker thread where i start going to the new horseshoe baltimore casino..... AND KEEP GOING BACK.

[whodoyoulike]

http://newsok.com/horse-racing-in-oklahoma-battles-stiff-competition-for-gaming-dollars/article/5365248

The state has 120 (legal) casinos with how many racetracks? And this guy thinks the elephant in the room is illegal sports betting and illegal gaming machines in back rooms and convenient marts?

How can racing compete with this many casinos in Oklahoma or, for that matter, any state? Its not possible, not in the long term.

Thanks for the link since there is a lot one can learn from it. Such as:

... But revenue from horse racetracks in the state has been cut in half.

Oklahoma horse racing generated more than $30.4 million in revenue as recently as fiscal year 2003, but that number had dropped to about $14.3 million by fiscal year 2013, the almanac reports...

Despite tough competition, Remington Park has persevered and is doing well financially, according to both Wells and Constantin Rieger, executive director of the Oklahoma Horse Racing Commission.

“We’re bucking the national trend at Remington Park,” Wells said. Nationally, betting revenue has been dropping 4 percent a year for a decade and many tracks have gone out of business, but betting revenue at Remington Park increased 3.5 percent in 2013 and is on pace to increase more than 4 percent in 2014, he said.

Wells said the racetrack’s success has been possible because of a State Question passed 10 years ago that enables Oklahoma racetracks to support their operations with revenue from casino operations.

“When I took over in 2005, our purses were $64,000 a day,” Wells said. “And at last spring’s quarter horse meet our purses were $299,000 a day. At the thoroughbred meet, it’s up to $230,000 a day. So we have a lot of outfits that have moved out of Kentucky and Texas, especially, and some other declining markets, that have come to Oklahoma to race.”

“We’re a top 10 or top 15 facility in the country,” Wells said....

$14.3 million for the entire year? A top 10 or 15 in the country. Is that criticism of the industry or a complement?

[thespaah]

This was published in Sunday paper: http://newsok.com/article/5366859
Here's the rub. Even though some tracks are getting casino subsidies, horsemen would NEVER agree to a takeout that is at least competitive with the very casinos that are putting food on their table.
The fact is the horsemen don't care whether a single dollar goes through the windows or ADW's. Why? Because the casinos are funding the purses.

[cj]

Here's the rub. Even though some tracks are getting casino subsidies, horsemen would NEVER agree to a takeout that is at least competitive with the very casinos that are putting food on their table.
The fact is the horsemen don't care whether a single dollar goes through the windows or ADW's. Why? Because the casinos are funding the purses.


I would change "some tracks" to "most tracks."

That said, I was just pointing out the absurdity of the statements of a general manager of one of those race tracks. People are leaving the game because the small field sizes, noncompetitive racing in most jurisdictions dominated by a few suspect trainers, and high takeout. As betting shrinks, so does the need to subsidize horse racing. Politicians will drop racing from the money pot as soon as possible.

[JustRalph]

I would change "some tracks" to "most tracks."

That said, I was just pointing out the absurdity of the statements of a general manager of one of those race tracks. People are leaving the game because the small field sizes, noncompetitive racing in most jurisdictions dominated by a few suspect trainers, and high takeout. As betting shrinks, so does the need to subsidize horse racing. Politicians will drop racing from the money pot as soon as possible.

I'm shocked it hasn't happened already

[cj]

I'm shocked it hasn't happened already

The only thing saving racing in a lot of places is that things rarely move fast in politics. When the slots money goes away, and it will, tracks will cry about the injustice, but most have done nothing at all to try to make racing viable on its own.

[Curlin]

I live in okc and can tell you, those who know the horses are running any particular night are in the minority. But let's be real, outside of the major race tracks, the majority couldn't care less about horse racing. Personally I wish the powers of racing would market the sport of it. Get it out there like every other sport. Somehow find a way to get at least some aspect of horse racing in the mainstream, and I don't think marketing the gambling side is going to work. Hell nothing may work. It's just so frustrating as a horse racing fan to be in such a minority that to discuss any part of this sport has to be done online. and even when I'm at the track its usually people who have no clue about horse racing. They're just there because "it's something different to do on a Saturday night". I would say 90% of this city have no idea what the breeders cup is. But then again, I don't think it's far off of any other city. Sorry for the rant.

[EMD4ME]

I live in okc and can tell you, those who know the horses are running any particular night are in the minority. But let's be real, outside of the major race tracks, the majority couldn't care less about horse racing. Personally I wish the powers of racing would market the sport of it. Get it out there like every other sport. Somehow find a way to get at least some aspect of horse racing in the mainstream, and I don't think marketing the gambling side is going to work. Hell nothing may work. It's just so frustrating as a horse racing fan to be in such a minority that to discuss any part of this sport has to be done online. and even when I'm at the track its usually people who have no clue about horse racing. They're just there because "it's something different to do on a Saturday night". I would say 90% of this city have no idea what the breeders cup is. But then again, I don't think it's far off of any other city. Sorry for the rant.

It is very frustrating. Plus, I don't know about you but where I'm from horse racing is Taboo. You don't walk around saying I love horse racing. Maybe if they marketed the game better or at all, it wouldn't be this way :bang:

[Track Phantom]

It is very frustrating. Plus, I don't know about you but where I'm from horse racing is Taboo. You don't walk around saying I love horse racing. Maybe if they marketed the game better or at all, it wouldn't be this way :bang:

Agree with your comment but not the reasoning.

It has to do with the public perception (be it correct or incorrect) that racing is frequented by low-lifes who gamble away their final dollar and run by crooks who cheat by injecting horses with performance enhancing drugs not to mention the way that people mistreat the horses and allow them to go lame or die on track. In addition, the game is slow, wildly difficult to learn and most races are "fixed".

I believe many in the public believe one or many of those factors and that is why it is considered taboo. If you say, "I'm a poker player", it's somehow kind of cool. If you say "I'm a horse racing player" it's met with some labeling of you as a person.

It sucks because horse racing leaders have done very little to offset these perceptions. When a scandal arises regarding illegal drugs, or horse mistreatment, horses breaking down, horses dying in the care of big name trainers, improprieties in tote board action, past posting, overall integrity issues, horse racing leaders meet these issues with complete silence in hopes the fervor will die down and go away. However, the general public is left, at the very least, with a "where there's smoke, there's fire" mentality.

Another reason why I say a governing body that oversees all of horse racing could get in front of these things with consistent and positive marketing to the mainstream public. Do you think the NFL does charity work because they're just good guys? No, they do it to keep the public with a positive perception of the NFL which buys them leeway when issues arise, at least in the public eye.

I guess in a way I do agree with you about marketing after all.

[Stillriledup]

Agree with your comment but not the reasoning.

It has to do with the public perception (be it correct or incorrect) that racing is frequented by low-lifes who gamble away their final dollar and run by crooks who cheat by injecting horses with performance enhancing drugs not to mention the way that people mistreat the horses and allow them to go lame or die on track. In addition, the game is slow, wildly difficult to learn and most races are "fixed".

I believe many in the public believe one or many of those factors and that is why it is considered taboo. If you say, "I'm a poker player", it's somehow kind of cool. If you say "I'm a horse racing player" it's met with some labeling of you as a person.

It sucks because horse racing leaders have done very little to offset these perceptions. When a scandal arises regarding illegal drugs, or horse mistreatment, horses breaking down, horses dying in the care of big name trainers, improprieties in tote board action, past posting, overall integrity issues, horse racing leaders meet these issues with complete silence in hopes the fervor will die down and go away. However, the general public is left, at the very least, with a "where there's smoke, there's fire" mentality.

Another reason why I say a governing body that oversees all of horse racing could get in front of these things with consistent and positive marketing to the mainstream public. Do you think the NFL does charity work because they're just good guys? No, they do it to keep the public with a positive perception of the NFL which buys them leeway when issues arise, at least in the public eye.

I guess in a way I do agree with you about marketing after all.

I think they have good reason to NOT offset the perceptions. They're in a tough position, they have to "convince" a large amount of people to keep coming back even though the math says 98 or 99 % of all bettors are going to be lifetime losers. If a large part of your audience thinks the game has a lot of shenanigans going on behind the scenes (even though they don't really know for sure) that gives them one more excuse to keep betting as they can convince themselves they're losing because of the cheats and not the math.

Remember, the cheats can always be rehabbed or the "Game" can clean them out, but the math? If the bettor starts thinking its the math that's getting him beat and not the cheats, he's more likely to go away.

[EMD4ME]

If I were marketing the game my ad would be something like this:

Handsome guy thinking to himself "I don't like the favorite, he's 3/5. If 100,000 is bet to win and this horse has 52,000 bet on him, that means this is not a 16% takeout race. It's a 75% advantage race. Public is betting 48,000 on the rest of the horses and getting 75% profit on their money ($84,000) when the favorite loses".

Guy next to him is staring into the paddock, thinking to himself "god I love the favorite. The rest of these horses can't keep up with him. If the favorite has $52,000 out of $100,000 bet on him then that means there's $48,000 in dead money being bet on slower horses".

Both guys smile and reach for their pocket.... attractive wives come say hello to their men. Some romantic affection ensues.

Men are shown wagering with both fists at windows, taking a seat in a crowded grandstand seat with wives.

Heavy stretch duel is shown, both guys and wives are shown rooting their butts off.

Photo finish!!!!!

Will you outsmart your opponent? Horse racing..... the only game that pits your intelligence against your peer and where adrenaline is found every race!!!

[EMD4ME]

Here's another....

Tired of being dealt 2 3 off suit?

Choose your cards at the venues YOU like. (guy studying is shown).

Same video is shown...

[cj]

Here's another....

Tired of being dealt 2 3 off suit?

Choose your cards at the venues YOU like. (guy studying is shown).

Same video is shown...

Racing always seems to downplay the gambling aspect of the sport for some reason. I guess they think it is working for some unknown reason.

[EMD4ME]

Racing always seems to downplay the gambling aspect of the sport for some reason. I guess they think it is working for some unknown reason.

I agree with you C.J.

Racing has an edge and they don't embrace it. It is a sport, where people can enjoy it in person and root for their beloved/cute animals/jockeys but it also has a phenomenally intellectually stimulating side to it on the gambling side.

It's a crying shame we don't Market to the financial guru, the wall street employee, the financial analyst, etc.

Handicapping contests should be televised on ESPN. Show why a player made a wager. Not just the result.

I could go on forever sadly....

[ronsmac]

If I were marketing the game my ad would be something like this:

Handsome guy thinking to himself "I don't like the favorite, he's 3/5. If 100,000 is bet to win and this horse has 52,000 bet on him, that means this is not a 16% takeout race. It's a 75% advantage race. Public is betting 48,000 on the rest of the horses and getting 75% profit on their money ($84,000) when the favorite loses".

Guy next to him is staring into the paddock, thinking to himself "god I love the favorite. The rest of these horses can't keep up with him. If the favorite has $52,000 out of $100,000 bet on him then that means there's $48,000 in dead money being bet on slower horses".

Both guys smile and reach for their pocket.... attractive wives come say hello to their men. Some romantic affection ensues.

Men are shown wagering with both fists at windows, taking a seat in a crowded grandstand seat with wives.

Heavy stretch duel is shown, both guys and wives are shown rooting their butts off.

Photo finish!!!!!

Will you outsmart your opponent? Horse racing..... the only game that pits your intelligence against your peer and where adrenaline is found every race!!!I'd love that commercial. especially if one of the women was tall and blonde, and the other had an exotic latin look.

[ReplayRandall]

Handicapping contests should be televised on ESPN. Show why a player made a wager. Not just the result.

The 2005, 2006 NHC Tournaments were shown on ESPN from Bally's. The show was mildly entertaining but made no attempt to show why a player made a specific wager. What was missing was the "silver bullet" that the World Series of Poker came up with, by showing the players' hole cards to the TV audience. The show of course was taped-delayed, but when Chris Moneymaker took the title, the poker boom took off. This is exactly what the NHC needs to jump to the next level of excitement. I've had numerous discussions with Keith Chamblin and the legal Dept. of the NTRA concerning the implementation of my intellectual property/idea that may be great for TV. This has been an ongoing process for over 3 years. The NHC is on the threshold of exploding past a $2.5 million prize pool this year, and has recently expanded to a 3 day tourney with a "final table" format. As the state of horse racing is in decline, the NHC is the only entity that is rising in popularity. It will be interesting to see if major sponsorship finally gets involved this coming January.........

[Stillriledup]

The 2005, 2006 NHC Tournaments were shown on ESPN from Bally's. The show was mildly entertaining but made no attempt to show why a player made a specific wager. What was missing was the "silver bullet" that the World Series of Poker came up with, by showing the players' hole cards to the TV audience. The show of course was taped-delayed, but when Chris Moneymaker took the title, the poker boom took off. This is exactly what the NHC needs to jump to the next level of excitement. I've had numerous discussions with Keith Chamblin and the legal Dept. of the NTRA concerning the implementation of my intellectual property/idea that may be great for TV. This has been an ongoing process for over 3 years. The NHC is on the threshold of exploding past a $2.5 million prize pool this year, and has recently expanded to a 3 day tourney with a "final table" format. As the state of horse racing is in decline, the NHC is the only entity that is rising in popularity. It will be interesting to see if major sponsorship finally gets involved this coming January.........

Racing needs to show people who appear to be "idiots" win big jackpots. They need to have the viewers think "if that clown can win, how hard can it be".

Its the how hard can it be theory, you need to plant the seed to prospective bettors that its not that hard if a person who looks like THAT can win.

[Track Phantom]

The 2005, 2006 NHC Tournaments were shown on ESPN from Bally's. The show was mildly entertaining but made no attempt to show why a player made a specific wager. What was missing was the "silver bullet" that the World Series of Poker came up with, by showing the players' hole cards to the TV audience. The show of course was taped-delayed, but when Chris Moneymaker took the title, the poker boom took off. This is exactly what the NHC needs to jump to the next level of excitement. I've had numerous discussions with Keith Chamblin and the legal Dept. of the NTRA concerning the implementation of my intellectual property/idea that may be great for TV. This has been an ongoing process for over 3 years. The NHC is on the threshold of exploding past a $2.5 million prize pool this year, and has recently expanded to a 3 day tourney with a "final table" format. As the state of horse racing is in decline, the NHC is the only entity that is rising in popularity. It will be interesting to see if major sponsorship finally gets involved this coming January.........

If this is produced properly, it would work and market the sport as intriguing and playable. However, if it isn't a polished presentation that succinctly presents the process to get to decisions (not too detailed where the viewer gets lost in the sauce, but detailed enough to highlight the challenge of handicapping) then it will fall flat and do little to bring interest to the mainstream audience.

I remember back in the late '80's, early '90's when big races were shown on TV and I wouldn't have a racing form, I had zero idea who might win and why. I always felt that made the broadcast so much less appealing to me. I just don't know how you present a bunch of numbers and text in a TV-presentation mode format.

[EMD4ME]

I'd love that commercial. especially if one of the women was tall and blonde, and the other had an exotic latin look.

Me too :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Next commercial would show attractive ladies out thinking the men!

[Stillriledup]

What's with this camera work in Race 1? Maybe THATS why revenue is down. :D

[taxicab]

Remington refuses to drop the P-3/4 minimums to fifty cents.
Every track that has dropped down their minimums has seen a handle bump on the wager.
Obvious stuff.... :faint:

http://www.drf.com/news/fractional-wagering-gaining-favor-racetracks-and-fans