Let's have an honest discussion about Gate Breaks

[Fort Erie Fanatic]

Look, I know we have all been on the good side and bad side of some god awful gate breaks and I think we need to have a good conversation about it in the sport of horse racing. It irritates me that Bayern didn't come down but why should he have been? I've seen much worse and not get taken down. IT doesn't mean it is right but in the sport of Horse Racing, the "Gate break" is becoming a free-for-all, fight to the death situation. Whether it is at Santa Anita, Penn National or Fort Erie it is currently anything goes in the first 50 feet.

In my opinion this needs to change. This effects hundreds of races across North America and I'm not going to get all sentimental and say its dangerous, blah blah blah. I just want my money to be won right, and if I lose the person who beats me wins fairly.

Bayern doesn't cannonball out of the gate and knock the #4 back, and he doesn't win today. Simple as that.

I think the stewards MADE THE RIGHT DECISION because past history has shown us unfair gate breaks mean jack squat in horse racing but I'd like this to be looked at and some changes be made. Just my opinion.

Am I blowing smoke or does this race prove some merit on how this portion of the race is looked at?

[pandy]

I posted this in another threat, re-posting here.

The bigger picture here is that there is no need for the starting gate at all. A couple of years ago I interviewed Dan Coon, who designs and builds racing surfaces. He is mostly known for his work with harness tracks but he has also built and worked on many thoroughbred surfaces including training tracks.

Coon told me that it's unfortunate that horsemen resist change, but, he said that there are two things that should be eliminated in thoroughbred races, the rail and the starting gate. He said that both have contributed to many injuries of riders and horses, some fatal. He said that the hard rail is simply not necessary and either is the starting gate. He also said that if they eliminated the starting gate there would be much less trouble at the start, and a lot less injuries.

I have never seen the need for the starting gate. You could easily start the horses from a starting line with a loud bang like you did years ago and you would eliminate horses flipping in the gate, breaking through the gate, getting left in the gate, getting injured in the gate, and breaking sideways out of the gate and ruining the Breeders Cup classic.

[wiffleball whizz]

I posted this in another threat, re-posting here.

The bigger picture here is that there is no need for the starting gate at all. A couple of years ago I interviewed Dan Coon, who designs and builds racing surfaces. He is mostly known for his work with harness tracks but he has also built and worked on many thoroughbred surfaces including training tracks.

Coon told me that it's unfortunate that horsemen resist change, but, he said that there are two things that should be eliminated in thoroughbred races, the rail and the starting gate. He said that both have contributed to many injuries of riders and horses, some fatal. He said that the hard rail is simply not necessary and either is the starting gate. He also said that if they eliminated the starting gate there would be much less trouble at the start, and a lot less injuries.

I have never seen the need for the starting gate. You could easily start the horses from a starting line with a loud bang like you did years ago and you would eliminate horses flipping in the gate, breaking through the gate, getting left in the gate, getting injured in the gate, and breaking sideways out of the gate and ruining the Breeders Cup classic.


Totally agree on all points

[mostpost]

I posted this in another threat, re-posting here.

The bigger picture here is that there is no need for the starting gate at all. A couple of years ago I interviewed Dan Coon, who designs and builds racing surfaces. He is mostly known for his work with harness tracks but he has also built and worked on many thoroughbred surfaces including training tracks.

Coon told me that it's unfortunate that horsemen resist change, but, he said that there are two things that should be eliminated in thoroughbred races, the rail and the starting gate. He said that both have contributed to many injuries of riders and horses, some fatal. He said that the hard rail is simply not necessary and either is the starting gate. He also said that if they eliminated the starting gate there would be much less trouble at the start, and a lot less injuries.

I have never seen the need for the starting gate. You could easily start the horses from a starting line with a loud bang like you did years ago and you would eliminate horses flipping in the gate, breaking through the gate, getting left in the gate, getting injured in the gate, and breaking sideways out of the gate and ruining the Breeders Cup classic.
That is a wonderful idea. And by that I mean that is a terrible idea. Why do you think they developed the starting gate? Because the walk up starts were a clusteryouknowwhat.

Horses were facing the wrong way; horses were backing up; horses were rearing in the air. Seldom did a field get away in less than two minutes and some delays were as long as 12-15 minutes. In one of Man-O-War's races the delay was four minutes-and there were only two horses in the race.

Can you imagine the outcry here if someone's horse was not ready when the race started. It would be even worse than it already is.

And do you really think that not having a starting gate would prevent a horse from ducking to the inside or the outside? Personally, I think it might make it easier.

[thaskalos]

That is a wonderful idea. And by that I mean that is a terrible idea. Why do you think they developed the starting gate? Because the walk up starts were a clusteryouknowwhat.

Horses were facing the wrong way; horses were backing up; horses were rearing in the air. Seldom did a field get away in less than two minutes and some delays were as long as 12-15 minutes. In one of Man-O-War's races the delay was four minutes-and there were only two horses in the race.

Can you imagine the outcry here if someone's horse was not ready when the race started. It would be even worse than it already is.

And do you really think that not having a starting gate would prevent a horse from ducking to the inside or the outside? Personally, I think it might make it easier.

And if you want a REAL "cluster-you-know-what"...do away with the starting gate and the inside rail together.

[raybo]

Truth be known, any kind of startling sound or action will cause horses to be startled, whether it's a gate suddenly opening in front of them, or a gun exploding, or a loud bell ringing. When animals are startled, and horses are just animals after all, anything can, and will, happen.

It was unfortunate that Bayern broke in and SB broke slightly out, that is unquestionable, but it is racing (SB could just as easily have broken in or out also, as could have Moreno or any of the others), and at Santa Anita speed does count. I'm not saying there was a bias today (obviously many of the BC races today were not won by front runners (only 2 that I remember). But, at any track that is as fast as Santa Anita almost always is, any horse who needs or wants the front, better go for it from the break, which is what Bayern did. And, when that happens there is a collision of some sort lying in the wait.

Sure, Moreno was a victim, because his only chance was to get an easy lead, even though that was highly unlikely to happen. Bayern, many said, needed the lead also, but he has shown in the past that he can rate also, and still run well. Who's to say that if Moreno, or any other horse had pressured Bayern, that Bayern would not have just given up the lead and stalked, like he has in the past?

What really bothers me about all the hoopla, is the CC backers claiming that he should have benefited from a incident that did not affect him at all. He got the trip he wanted (even the connections liked the wide post draw) and still couldn't beat the horse who led from the git go.

And regarding SB, he wasn't going to beat Bayern today, regardless, IMO.

Again, it was unfortunate that this happened in the big race, on the big day, but it did, and, IMO, the stewards did what they had to do, not penalize any horse for what happens out of the gate, especially in a 1 1/4 mile race. This happens every day, at every track in the country, with the same ruling. If you all of a sudden start DQing every horse that collides with another horse out of the gate, there would be DQs in 30-40% of all races. Wouldn't racing be so much better off if that happened? :bang:

[pandy]

Without the gate, it would eliminate many injuries.

[EMD4ME]

My idea is very simple.

Add 4 foot long extensions that break out with the doors. They would be made of a soft cushion type of material. As a horse takes it's first stride out of the gate, it would never hit these extensions if it breaks straight. However, if it broke out or in, the extension would take the blunt force of the horse, not another horse.

The horse would hopefully straighten out in the second stride and we have a fair start.

Or space the individual gates another 2 feet apart. That doesn't eliminate the chance of this but it helps a touch.

[MJC922]

Look, I know we have all been on the good side and bad side of some god awful gate breaks and I think we need to have a good conversation about it in the sport of horse racing. It irritates me that Bayern didn't come down but why should he have been? I've seen much worse and not get taken down. IT doesn't mean it is right but in the sport of Horse Racing, the "Gate break" is becoming a free-for-all, fight to the death situation. Whether it is at Santa Anita, Penn National or Fort Erie it is currently anything goes in the first 50 feet.

In my opinion this needs to change. This effects hundreds of races across North America and I'm not going to get all sentimental and say its dangerous, blah blah blah. I just want my money to be won right, and if I lose the person who beats me wins fairly.

Bayern doesn't cannonball out of the gate and knock the #4 back, and he doesn't win today. Simple as that.

I think the stewards MADE THE RIGHT DECISION because past history has shown us unfair gate breaks mean jack squat in horse racing but I'd like this to be looked at and some changes be made. Just my opinion.

Am I blowing smoke or does this race prove some merit on how this portion of the race is looked at?

Having ridden horses from age 9 up until my mid to late teens I know there's practically zero way to prevent this type of thing so I like the fact that the judges are lenient in this area but it also can't be a situation where anything goes either.

This particular case of Bayern in the Classic was severe interference to the betting favorite which I think matters as well. If you blast into a 100-1 shot and the 100-1 shot runs last then the judges should take that into consideration and leave it up, and I think they generally do.

It's always going to be a judgment call. What they probably looked at here is Shared Belief was a fair amount behind at the wire, if he's a couple of lengths closer they almost had to do something, but given the margin of loss and the chance to give Bob some face time (hate to say it but I believe that too factored in) I can see the 'why' behind the decision. My personal opinion is that he should've been DQ'd.

[Fager Fan]

I have often thought there should be a better way to start the race than the gate. But no inside rail? What would you put in its place? The only thing I can think of is a weak-limbed hedge (so there's no impalement by the limbs).

[dlivery]

All I know is from watching races is when that gate POP's is when the race begins and that alone should tell the horse pay attention.

[Tom]

The problem is not a gate, but the stewards lack of enforceable rules at every track. Racing is less organized than high school track meets.

As long you have stewards assigned to a single track, you will never have consistency.

[Sparky13]

I think I read in a book about War Admiral, when they didn't have starting gates, several races he was in, had to be restarted several times because the humans holding the horses at the starting line, couldn't hold the horses untill all were ready or a horse would break away and they would have to try again. Could you see that in today's Kentucky Derby with 20 horses entered and all have a human holding the horse until the starter decides they can go. To me that would be more dangerous to the horses and to the humans.

[CryingForTheHorses]

The problem is not a gate, but the stewards lack of enforceable rules at every track. Racing is less organized than high school track meets.

As long you have stewards assigned to a single track, you will never have consistency.

I agree Tom,I had a filly win by 10 lengths,Came in a bit at the start and was thrown right down to last.Next race another horse wiped out 2 horses at the start and finished 2nd and was allowed to stay. :bang:

[davew]

I have often thought there should be a better way to start the race than the gate. But no inside rail? What would you put in its place? The only thing I can think of is a weak-limbed hedge (so there's no impalement by the limbs).


have you ever watched a harness race?

not sure where the crazy maiden that drops its rider would end up --

[cj]

There is no way starts would be simple without a gate, horses are not that relaxed. We see it with steeplechases, no gate, but in those races that start doesn't matter very much at all. Watch a few steeplechases and tell me how it would go with high strung 2yos about to go five furlongs.

[Valuist]

Look, I know we have all been on the good side and bad side of some god awful gate breaks and I think we need to have a good conversation about it in the sport of horse racing. It irritates me that Bayern didn't come down but why should he have been? I've seen much worse and not get taken down. IT doesn't mean it is right but in the sport of Horse Racing, the "Gate break" is becoming a free-for-all, fight to the death situation. Whether it is at Santa Anita, Penn National or Fort Erie it is currently anything goes in the first 50 feet.

In my opinion this needs to change. This effects hundreds of races across North America and I'm not going to get all sentimental and say its dangerous, blah blah blah. I just want my money to be won right, and if I lose the person who beats me wins fairly.

Bayern doesn't cannonball out of the gate and knock the #4 back, and he doesn't win today. Simple as that.

I think the stewards MADE THE RIGHT DECISION because past history has shown us unfair gate breaks mean jack squat in horse racing but I'd like this to be looked at and some changes be made. Just my opinion.

Am I blowing smoke or does this race prove some merit on how this portion of the race is looked at?

So if you don't have DQs at the break, how do you keep it from becoming the wild west? You suspend and fine the riders. Let the results stand. Garcia should get days for the incident yesterday.

[Stillriledup]

So if you don't have DQs at the break, how do you keep it from becoming the wild west? You suspend and fine the riders. Let the results stand. Garcia should get days for the incident yesterday.

"Wild West" is an interesting choice of words. If this infraction was "wild westy" in nature, i believe that its not something that could be considered "part of the game". At what point does a "part of the game" bump turn into a "wild west" bump and do we penalize the wild west stuff, or do we just let it all go.

[raybo]

I suppose the proper thing to do would be to try to determine intent, and recovery attempt. Did the rider intentionally cause the horse to break in or out (in cases where the horse's first jump was fairly straight, if it wasn't fairly straight then the bad break was unavoidable)? If not, did he honestly attempt to prevent further problems, with his actions after the break? If so, now we have a legitimate start, and anything that happens after that point is subject to DQ.

Ultimately, any DQ ruling should be all about intent by the rider, and attempts by the rider to alleviate problems born solely by the horse.

Yesterday, in the Classic, arguably Bayern could have been DQed after the contact, due to bearing in towards the rail rather aggressively. I can't make a judgement on that from the videos I have seen, but basically, there should be clearance between the horse's butt and another's nose before moving in his path, such that contact is only possible if the moving horse slows down while making that move, or the horse being passed suddenly increases speed. If the former, then the moving rider/horse has committed a foul, and in the latter the other horse or rider has caused its own problem.

[Stillriledup]

I suppose the proper thing to do would be to try to determine intent, and recovery attempt. Did the rider intentionally cause the horse to break in or out (in cases where the horse's first jump was fairly straight, if it wasn't fairly straight then the bad break was unavoidable)? If not, did he honestly attempt to prevent further problems, with his actions after the break? If so, now we have a legitimate start, and anything that happens after that point is subject to DQ.

Ultimately, any DQ ruling should be all about intent by the rider, and attempts by the rider to alleviate problems born solely by the horse.

Yesterday, in the Classic, arguably Bayern could have been DQed after the contact, due to bearing in towards the rail rather aggressively. I can't make a judgement on that from the videos I have seen, but basically, there should be clearance between the horse's butt and another's nose before moving in his path, such that contact is only possible if the moving horse slows down while making that move, or the horse being passed suddenly increases speed. If the former, then the moving rider/horse has committed a foul, and in the latter the other horse or rider has caused its own problem.

This is an interesting point, that this situation was more of the rider making a conscious decision to just beeline to the rail and he was a little (or a lot) reckless in doing so. This was not a jock who went into the gate without a plan. He has a plan and part of his plan was to beeline and during that beeline, he crashed into horses.

[raybo]

This is an interesting point, that this situation was more of the rider making a conscious decision to just beeline to the rail and he was a little (or a lot) reckless in doing so. This was not a jock who went into the gate without a plan. He has a plan and part of his plan was to beeline and during that beeline, he crashed into horses.

Yes, but was his attempt started when he was clear of SB? If it was, and SB's jockey urged the horse forward in order to keep Bayern from moving in front of him, then that is on SB's jockey, not Bayern's. As long as the horse is clear of the other horse he has every right to go where ever he wants. They don't have rear view mirrors on these horses, and they don't use ESP to determine that the other jockey is going to urge his horse forward suddenly.

To my understanding, after watching the videos, the only horse Bayern contacted was SB.

Of course, I already know that you will not see it that way, you have your opinions and we have ours , and most of the time they don't match. :lol:

[Redboard]

"A starter, standing alongside the jockeys and horses, dropped his flag to signal the start. An assistant some 100 yards down the course raised a second flag to indicate false starts."
Pettingill was a starter who once kept the field for the American Derby at post for TWO HOURS, trying to get them to line up.

[Stillriledup]

Yes, but was his attempt started when he was clear of SB? If it was, and SB's jockey urged the horse forward in order to keep Bayern from moving in front of him, then that is on SB's jockey, not Bayern's. As long as the horse is clear of the other horse he has every right to go where ever he wants. They don't have rear view mirrors on these horses, and they don't use ESP to determine that the other jockey is going to urge his horse forward suddenly.

To my understanding, after watching the videos, the only horse Bayern contacted was SB.

Of course, I already know that you will not see it that way, you have your opinions and we have ours , and most of the time they don't match. :lol:

I know what you're saying, but Smith is allowed to urge his horse forward, if Garcia cuts over and bumps him, Garcia has to be at fault.

[Tom]

Smith never called foul, so I would assume it is because he wants to keep riding Baffert horses. Nothing would have moved him up, so why worry about anyone but his own ass. Nice acting job he did on his way to talk to the stewards. Almost believable.

[Stillriledup]

Smith never called foul, so I would assume it is because he wants to keep riding Baffert horses. Nothing would have moved him up, so why worry about anyone but his own ass. Nice acting job he did on his way to talk to the stewards. Almost believable.

Hate to say it but Rome and Company need to make a jock change. You can't have a guy who's best interests are not yours who's riding your horses.

[raybo]

I know what you're saying, but Smith is allowed to urge his horse forward, if Garcia cuts over and bumps him, Garcia has to be at fault.

Ok, dang! I just watched the videos again, and "after" the initial contact with SB, which was caused by Bayern going directly left on the first jump, Garcia jerked the right rein to relieve the contact. So far nothing is unusual except that Bayern broke left from the gate (which, caused by the horse and not the rider, should never be cause for a DQ, no intent by the jockey to interfere illegally at that point).

As soon as Garcia jerked the right rein and straightened Bayern somewhat, you can see him look left, and SB is already behind him at that point. Garcia now has plenty of clearance in front of SB and also Moreno, so Garcia guides him in front and goes on his merry way. He caused no further interference with any other horse that I could see, just heading towards the rail, as he had plenty of clearance to do so.

The reason SB was already over a length behind Bayern, after their initial contact, was because Moreno broke to his right, about the same way Bayern broke to his left out of the gate, and contacted SB causing him further trouble and loss of ground. That total loss of ground was a result of first being contacted by Bayern (no fault of the jockey) and being bumped to his left, and also by contact with Moreno who had broken right from the gate. It wasn't "simultaneous" contact with Bayern and Moreno, it was first, contact with the left jumping Bayern, and then contact with the right jumping Moreno. Both the initial contact from Bayern and the fact that Moreno broke right and ran into SB, caused SB to give up his forward position completely. It was at that point that Bayern was steered further left towards the rail, because he had the room to do so safely.

My opinion, was that it was an unfortunate combination of factors that bothered SB so much, nor just contact with Bayern. The supposed interference with Toast of New York, by some people, came after all of that gate action. Again, it was unfortunate, but Garcia did, obviously, disconnect from contact by jerking the right rein, and then safely moved towards the rail. At the point where Bayern moved so aggressively toward the rail, he already had a clear length+ lead over both SB and Moreno. He simply seized the opportunity to move towards the rail, the damage to SB had already been done by that time.

The stewards, IMO, called it right. Unfortunate contact on the first jump out of the gate, followed by contact with another horse who also jumped crazy out of the gate, neither was a cause for a DQ.

That's the way I see it, unfortunate, but entirely the right call.

[Stillriledup]

Ok, dang! I just watched the videos again, and "after" the initial contact with SB, which was caused by Bayern going directly left on the first jump, Garcia jerked the right rein to relieve the contact. So far nothing is unusual except that Bayern broke left from the gate (which, caused by the horse and not the rider, should never be cause for a DQ, no intent by the jockey to interfere illegally at that point).

As soon as Garcia jerked the right rein and straightened Bayern somewhat, you can see him look left, and SB is already behind him at that point. Garcia now has plenty of clearance in front of SB and also Moreno, so Garcia guides him in front and goes on his merry way. He caused no further interference with any other horse that I could see, just heading towards the rail, as he had plenty of clearance to do so.

The reason SB was already over a length behind Bayern, after their initial contact, was because Moreno broke to his right, about the same way Bayern broke to his left out of the gate, and contacted SB causing him further trouble and loss of ground. That total loss of ground was a result of first being contacted by Bayern (no fault of the jockey) and being bumped to his left, and also by contact with Moreno who had broken right from the gate. It wasn't "simultaneous" contact with Bayern and Moreno, it was first, contact with the left jumping Bayern, and then contact with the right jumping Moreno. Both the initial contact from Bayern and the fact that Moreno broke right and ran into SB, caused SB to give up his forward position completely. It was at that point that Bayern was steered further left towards the rail, because he had the room to do so safely.

My opinion, was that it was an unfortunate combination of factors that bothered SB so much, nor just contact with Bayern. The supposed interference with Toast of New York, by some people, came after all of that gate action. Again, it was unfortunate, but Garcia did, obviously, disconnect from contact by jerking the right rein, and then safely moved towards the rail. At the point where Bayern moved so aggressively toward the rail, he already had a clear length+ lead over both SB and Moreno. He simply seized the opportunity to move towards the rail, the damage to SB had already been done by that time.

The stewards, IMO, called it right. Unfortunate contact on the first jump out of the gate, followed by contact with another horse who also jumped crazy out of the gate, neither was a cause for a DQ.

That's the way I see it, unfortunate, but entirely the right call.

I didn't see any contact get relieved, if you watch the head on, Bayern doesn't ever shift back away from the contact, he's just diving straight for the rail. Garcia never acted as if he knew he was causing interference, you've seen as many races as the next guy and when horses are crashing hard into rivals, the jock is yanking that horse up and pulling the horses head off contact, i dont see where Bayern's head moves away from the contact, but i'll watch it again if you think i should.

Good writeup btw, i respect your opinion.

[raybo]

Smith never called foul, so I would assume it is because he wants to keep riding Baffert horses. Nothing would have moved him up, so why worry about anyone but his own ass. Nice acting job he did on his way to talk to the stewards. Almost believable.

Tom, where do you get that Smith "never called foul"? Did you not see the brief interview with him before he went into the stewards's office? He flat said that he was interfered with. And, you can bet that once inside with the stewards, he had more to say. He was steaming mad, and rightly so (he had no chance to run his planned race after that), but that doesn't mean there should have been a DQ, or that he didn't voice his protest to the stewards after the race.

I don't get where you came to that assumption, I saw just the opposite.

[raybo]

I didn't see any contact get relieved, if you watch the head on, Bayern doesn't ever shift back away from the contact, he's just diving straight for the rail. Garcia never acted as if he knew he was causing interference, you've seen as many races as the next guy and when horses are crashing hard into rivals, the jock is yanking that horse up and pulling the horses head off contact, i dont see where Bayern's head moves away from the contact, but i'll watch it again if you think i should.

Good writeup btw, i respect your opinion.

Yeah, I figured that's what you would say. Bayern was obviously no longer in contact with SB after Garcia jerked the right rein, SB was already off his left hip and was being bumped by Moreno, causing SB to lose more ground. By the time Bayern started moving aggressively towards the rail, he was already clear of SB and Moreno. SB got bumped by Bayern on the first jump and then was immediately bumped by Moreno, who had broken right significantly. Nobody seems to watch how Moreno broke, only Bayern. They both broke crazy and SB was caught between them, that can't be controlled, horses do that coming out of the gate.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, I figured that's what you would say. Bayern was obviously no longer in contact with SB after Garcia jerked the right rein, SB was already off his left hip and was being bumped by Moreno, causing SB to lose more ground. By the time Bayern started moving aggressively towards the rail, he was already clear of SB and Moreno. SB got bumped by Bayern on the first jump and then was immediately bumped by Moreno, who had broken right significantly. Nobody seems to watch how Moreno broke, only Bayern. They both broke crazy and SB was caught between them, that can't be controlled, horses do that coming out of the gate.

To me, its about intent and if you just watch the head on, even though you won't have perspective of where each runner happens to be, you can see the intent was just to dive down to the fence, he came out of the gate and just ran horses off the track, he started angling towards the fence the split second he came out of the gate.

[raybo]

To me, its about intent and if you just watch the head on, even though you won't have perspective of where each runner happens to be, you can see the intent was just to dive down to the fence, he came out of the gate and just ran horses off the track, he started angling towards the fence the split second he came out of the gate.

He came out of the gate to the left, that was the jump. You don't guide a horse out of the gate, he comes out the way he comes out, very little you can do as a jockey until you see what has happened. I don't know if you've ever raced, like cars or motocross bikes, etc., but when that light comes on, or the gate drops, it's all you can do just to hold on, it takes a second or so to gain some semblance of control. I am positive it's even worse on the back of a 1000-1500 pound thoroughbred whose head or body may not even be pointed straight down the track when the gate opens. IMO, Garcia reacted as well as could be expected and then continued his race, legally, because he was no longer in contact with, and in front of SB. Also, IMO, more ground was lost by SB due to what Moreno did, jumping right out of the gate and continuing through the 5's path, causing him to lay back, and into the now left moving SB. It was a mess, yes, but not unusual at that point in the start of a race.

[Stillriledup]

He came out of the gate to the left, that was the jump. You don't guide a horse out of the gate, he comes out the way he comes out, very little you can do as a jockey until you see what has happened. I don't know if you've ever raced, like cars or motocross bikes, etc., but when that light comes on, or the gate drops, it's all you can do just to hold on, it takes a second or so to gain some semblance of control. I am positive it's even worse on the back of a 1000-1500 pound thoroughbred whose head or body may not even be pointed straight down the track when the gate opens. IMO, Garcia reacted as well as could be expected and then continued his race, legally, because he was no longer in contact with, and in front of SB. Also, IMO, more ground was lost by SB due to what Moreno did, jumping right out of the gate and continuing through the 5's path, causing him to lay back, and into the now left moving SB. It was a mess, yes, but not unusual at that point in the start of a race.

Let me put this another way. I don't think its random, i think it was part of his strategy to beeline to the fence. He started his beeline too soon and wasn't clear of horses. I don't believe he just happened to break to the left when the gates opened.

[raybo]

Let me put this another way. I don't think its random, i think it was part of his strategy to beeline to the fence. He started his beeline too soon and wasn't clear of horses. I don't believe he just happened to break to the left when the gates opened.

Like i said, that horse is gonna do what it does, out of the gate, regardless of what the jockey has planned. Baffert said that his orders to Garica was to let Bayern do whatever he wanted, which at Santa Anita, against other speed horses, means you gun for the lead, and get to the rail as quickly as possible. The contact happened too early, IMO, to have been Garcia's intent to interfere with SB. His intent was to get out of the gate and head to the rail, as soon as he had the opportunity. Do you really think he guided the horse out of the gate and intentionally into SB? If so, then I have nothing else to say to you. Your mind is made up, and it seems it's always about some supposed illegality, with malice of forethought. Dang, I couldn't live my life with that kind of attitude and thought process.

[Stillriledup]

Like i said, that horse is gonna do what it does, out of the gate, regardless of what the jockey has planned. Baffert said that his orders to Garica was to let Bayern do whatever he wanted, which at Santa Anita, against other speed horses, means you gun for the lead, and get to the rail as quickly as possible. The contact happened too early, IMO, to have been Garcia's intent to interfere with SB. His intent was to get out of the gate and head to the rail, as son as he had the opportunity. Do you really think he guided the horse out of the gate and intentionally into SB? If so, then I have nothing else to say to you. Your mind is made up, and it seems it's always about some supposed illegality, with malice of forethought. Dang, I couldn't live my life with that kind of attitude and thought process.

I must be doing a bad job explaining my position because you're taking what i said the wrong way (and then adding an insult at the end, no need for that, this isn't 5th grade).

First of all, What Baffert said is meaningless, it means nothing at all. What's he going to say, i told him to get the lead and crash the field for good measure?

Here's my position again, let me lay it out as clear as possible. I believe that Garcia's plan was to angle over to the rail as fast as possible. I don't believe that the horse just "did what it does" there's a reason the horse broke inward and not outward. Whether or not he crashed those guys on purpose, only he knows, you can ask him next time you see him.

My point was that this gate incident was not part of nature, it wasn't something that randomly happened to happen, it was part of his plan to get to the lead and the rail as soon as possible, he just happened to misjudge the other horses, he thought he was clear when he wasn't.

If you want to debate, you're going to have to respect opinions that don't coincide with yours without "going 5th grade" on posters. You're better than that.

[raybo]

I must be doing a bad job explaining my position because you're taking what i said the wrong way (and then adding an insult at the end, no need for that, this isn't 5th grade).

First of all, What Baffert said is meaningless, it means nothing at all. What's he going to say, i told him to get the lead and crash the field for good measure?

Here's my position again, let me lay it out as clear as possible. I believe that Garcia's plan was to angle over to the rail as fast as possible. I don't believe that the horse just "did what it does" there's a reason the horse broke inward and not outward. Whether or not he crashed those guys on purpose, only he knows, you can ask him next time you see him.

My point was that this gate incident was not part of nature, it wasn't something that randomly happened to happen, it was part of his plan to get to the lead and the rail as soon as possible, he just happened to misjudge the other horses, he thought he was clear when he wasn't.

If you want to debate, you're going to have to respect opinions that don't coincide with yours without "going 5th grade" on posters. You're better than that.

You believe what you want. Maybe you ought to go get on top of a thoroughbred and see if you can cause him to break left, or right, or straight out of the gate, before you start assuming that was his intent all along.

I'm done with this discussion, and I had more sense in the 5th grade than some do as adults. Take it as you wish, but your history tells the tale.

[thaskalos]

I must be doing a bad job explaining my position because you're taking what i said the wrong way (and then adding an insult at the end, no need for that, this isn't 5th grade).

First of all, What Baffert said is meaningless, it means nothing at all. What's he going to say, i told him to get the lead and crash the field for good measure?

Here's my position again, let me lay it out as clear as possible. I believe that Garcia's plan was to angle over to the rail as fast as possible. I don't believe that the horse just "did what it does" there's a reason the horse broke inward and not outward. Whether or not he crashed those guys on purpose, only he knows, you can ask him next time you see him.

My point was that this gate incident was not part of nature, it wasn't something that randomly happened to happen, it was part of his plan to get to the lead and the rail as soon as possible, he just happened to misjudge the other horses, he thought he was clear when he wasn't.

If you want to debate, you're going to have to respect opinions that don't coincide with yours without "going 5th grade" on posters. You're better than that.
What difference does it make if an infraction is committed "on purpose"...or by accident? The horse started from the 7-gate, and ended up in front of the 3-gate by the time the contact was over...causing four horses to be knocked off-stride at the start. Yes...we know that a little bumping is likely to occur at the start of these races...but incidents as severe as this are not a common occurrence. The start of the race is a crucial point...and we shouldn't cavalierly dismiss these things as "minor mishaps".

The California tracks have enough of a speed bias...the jockeys should not also be allowed to drive to the lead with no regard for the horses on the inside of them.

[PhantomOnTour]

I just ran a red light.
1) I did it on purpose
2) I wasn't paying attention and drove right through

***whether it's 1 or 2, I am still guilty of running a red light, and deserve a ticket.

Bayern is happy and runs best when clear and on the rail...maybe it was his idea to get there, albeit a little too early...???
I say he should have come down.

[raybo]

What difference does it make if an infraction is committed "on purpose"...or by accident? The horse started from the 7-gate, and ended up in front of the 3-gate by the time the contact was over...causing four horses to be knocked off-stride at the start.

3 path? He was in the 6 path when the contact occurred, knocking SB into the 5 path, at which time Bayern attempted to straighten. He only contacted one horse, SB, and that was only once, all the other bumping happened behind him. He was clear to move left after his initial contact with SB and SB's immediate contact with Moreno, who had moved almost 2 paths to the right by that time, so if Moreno moved right from the 4 post into the 5 path, and SB has been knocked into the 5 path also, how did that put Bayern in the 3 path, he was still in front of both Moreno and SB at that time. Somebody please watch what Moreno did out of the gate, and where the 5 had to go because of both events. If anybody has any right to complain about something so immediate out of the gate, it was the 5. He had to be taken up completely. At least SB was able to regroup quickly after both contacts, that is, until the 9 came into the picture. :lol:

[raybo]

I just ran a red light.
1) I did it on purpose
2) I wasn't paying attention and drove right through

***whether it's 1 or 2, I am still guilty of running a red light, and deserve a ticket.

Bayern is happy and runs best when clear and on the rail...maybe it was his idea to get there, albeit a little too early...???
I say he should have come down.

Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and the correct call was made. :)

[Stillriledup]

You believe what you want. Maybe you ought to go get on top of a thoroughbred and see if you can cause him to break left, or right, or straight out of the gate, before you start assuming that was his intent all along.

I'm done with this discussion, and I had more sense in the 5th grade than some do as adults. Take it as you wish, but your history tells the tale.

See, you're doing it again, you're stamping your feet and crying because i won't just agree with you.

As far as me getting on top of a horse, what does that have to do with anything, i'm not a trained jockey so me being on a horse has nothing to do with what an elite jock like Martin Garcia can do on a horse, its apples and oranges.

As far as my history goes, i think its pretty good if i do say so myself. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

What difference does it make if an infraction is committed "on purpose"...or by accident? The horse started from the 7-gate, and ended up in front of the 3-gate by the time the contact was over...causing four horses to be knocked off-stride at the start. Yes...we know that a little bumping is likely to occur at the start of these races...but incidents as severe as this are not a common occurrence. The start of the race is a crucial point...and we shouldn't cavalierly dismiss these things as "minor mishaps".

The California tracks have enough of a speed bias...the jockeys should not also be allowed to drive to the lead with no regard for the horses on the inside of them.

Raybo got all offended because he thought that someone dared question if Garcia did this on purpose, so i posted that to ease his mind, you're right, it doesn't matter if it was on purpose or not, all that matters is that the crashing was a result of a premeditated decision to get to the rail at all costs, he just misjudged how close those other horses were to him when he beelined. Some harm, no foul according to the Teflon mice.

[raybo]

Here are a bunch of stop action I took from that race, make up your own mind:

[raybo]

Stop action continued:

[dnlgfnk]

I must be doing a bad job explaining my position because you're taking what i said the wrong way (and then adding an insult at the end, no need for that, this isn't 5th grade).

First of all, What Baffert said is meaningless, it means nothing at all. What's he going to say, i told him to get the lead and crash the field for good measure?

Here's my position again, let me lay it out as clear as possible. I believe that Garcia's plan was to angle over to the rail as fast as possible. I don't believe that the horse just "did what it does" there's a reason the horse broke inward and not outward. Whether or not he crashed those guys on purpose, only he knows, you can ask him next time you see him.

My point was that this gate incident was not part of nature, it wasn't something that randomly happened to happen, it was part of his plan to get to the lead and the rail as soon as possible, he just happened to misjudge the other horses, he thought he was clear when he wasn't.

If you want to debate, you're going to have to respect opinions that don't coincide with yours without "going 5th grade" on posters. You're better than that.

One stride out of the gate?

"Bayern veered left immediately out of the gate..." (Jay Privman)

Determined to outgun Moreno at whatever cost of pace? Risking life and limb of both men and horses? This borders on calumny unless you know for a fact, which you do not, SRU.

[raybo]

I didn't shoot anymore stop action, but after all of this the 4 went right again, behind the 7, and forced the 6 to the right, both went to the outside of 7, and directly into the exact same spot that the 9 was heading. 9 cuts off 6 and actually bumps the 4, pushing him back behind 7. 9 continues on to the front and now the 13 continues left and cuts off 6 and forces him to steady (lots of individual things happened to the 6, but only one of those things involved the 7, the initial bumping out of the gate). All this stuff happened after the initial contact between 7 and 6, and between 4 and 6. The poor 5 had no chance at all after he was pinched between 4 and 6, don't know where he went but I think he went to the rail and stayed there (hey you can only get run over from one side, on the rail - LOL).

[raybo]

One stride out of the gate?

"Bayern veered left immediately out of the gate..." (Jay Privman)

Determined to outgun Moreno at whatever cost of pace? Risking life and limb of both men and horses? This borders on calumny unless you know for a fact, which you do not, SRU.

I agree, the 7 jumped left and the 6 jumped slightly right, and they collided. Everything after that was caused by the 4 jumping right and continuing to go right, no left hand reining done by the 4's jock that I could see. 4 and 6 collided while 7 had straightened his line. he didn't start veering left again until the 4 had bumped the 6 and forced him behind 7. The damage to the 6 was done by then, and then 6 got even more forcing by 4, bumping by 9 and cutting off by 13, causing 6 to steady. SB's early race was a conflagration of many individual events. Being stuck between 2 speed horses in the gate isn't the best place in the world to be, all kinds of bad things are waiting for you if you try to go forward with the speed, and don't have the speed to do it.

[Stillriledup]

One stride out of the gate?

"Bayern veered left immediately out of the gate..." (Jay Privman)

Determined to outgun Moreno at whatever cost of pace? Risking life and limb of both men and horses? This borders on calumny unless you know for a fact, which you do not, SRU.

It looked to me like the guy was hell bent on getting the lead as soon as possible, its just that he cut over before he was fully clear. OOPS.

He's lucky that SB wasn't a flying 4th missing in a 4 horse photo and he's also lucky that Mike Smith stayed on the horse...if Smith falls off his horse, Bayern comes down.

[JohnGalt1]

I watched a horse race, and a Nascar race broke out--to paraphrase the line about Hockey and boxing matches.

I've watched the start a few times.

While most are focusing on Bayern's banging into Shared Belief causing trouble to other horses, Toast of NY also impeded horses.

I would've taken both Bayern and ToNY down. Placed Bayern behind Shared Belief and ToNY behind Bayern.

I bet Shared Belief and ToNY both to win.

I had a chance in the stretch to collect on a 19-1 horse, but if I was a Santa Anita steward, I still would've had the same kick in the wallet.

[raybo]

I watched a horse race, and a Nascar race broke out--to paraphrase the line about Hockey and boxing matches.

I've watched the start a few times.

While most are focusing on Bayern's banging into Shared Belief causing trouble to other horses, Toast of NY also impeded horses.

I would've taken both Bayern and ToNY down. Placed Bayern behind Shared Belief and ToNY behind Bayern.

I bet Shared Belief and ToNY both to win.

I had a chance in the stretch to collect on a 19-1 horse, but if I was a Santa Anita steward, I still would've had the same kick in the wallet.

People should really look at what SB and Moreno did out of the gate, too, especially Moreno. Moreno went hard right and kept going right, SB went slightly right and Bayern went hard left, which caused their contact, then Bayern was corrected by Garcia. But Moreno continuing right and contacting SB caused SB to get forced behind Bayern, which gave Bayern clearance on SB, and Garcia took advantage of it and headed for the rail. I would have done the same thing, given the circumstances. If I'm on a speed horse and I get a chance to go to the rail early, you can bet I'm going for it.

What happened with Toast of New York, and CC, happened later, but was exacerbated by Moreno continuing to go right, even after contacting SB initially, and forced SB right into the spot that Toast was heading for, which caused that mess, Toast cutting off SB and bumping Moreno. Then came CC who cut off SB yet again and caused SB to steady.

The contact between Bayern and SB paled in comparison to what went on behind Bayern after that. IMO, Moreno caused much more serious problems than anyone else in the race, even though Toast and CC were both heading for the rail as hard or harder than Bayern did after he cleared SB and Moreno, they just ran into a couple horses heading right while they were heading left.

[Stillriledup]

People should really look at what SB and Moreno did out of the gate, too, especially Moreno. Moreno went hard right and kept going right, SB went slightly right and Bayern went hard left, which caused their contact, then Bayern was corrected by Garcia. But Moreno continuing right and contacting SB caused SB to get forced behind Bayern, which gave Bayern clearance on SB, and Garcia took advantage of it and headed for the rail. I would have done the same thing, given the circumstances. If I'm on a speed horse and I get a chance to go to the rail early, you can bet I'm going for it.

What happened with Toast of New York, and CC, happened later, but was exacerbated by Moreno continuing to go right, even after contacting SB initially, and forced SB right into the spot that Toast was heading for, which caused that mess, Toast cutting off SB and bumping Moreno. Then came CC who cut off SB yet again and caused SB to steady.

The contact between Bayern and SB paled in comparison to what went on behind Bayern after that. IMO, Moreno caused much more serious problems than anyone else in the race, even though Toast and CC were both heading for the rail as hard or harder than Bayern did after he cleared SB and Moreno, they just ran into a couple horses heading right while they were heading left.

You said Bayern "corrected" can you tell me which stride he corrected? I don't see what you're talking about.

[raybo]

You said Bayern "corrected" can you tell me which stride he corrected? I don't see what you're talking about.

Did you not see the shots I posted above? In the 2nd one Garcia is standing up in the stirrups and pulling on the right rein. That straightened Bayern from where he was heading. He didn't start going hard left again until after Moreno and SB collided (which happened immediately after the Bayern/SB contact), which pushed SB behind Bayern, leaving clearance for him to go towards the rail again. If you're only looking at the head-on, you won't see how far back SB was forced, he was knocked into the back of Bayern and then forced behind Bayern by Moreno's continuing right move (as a matter of fact he kept going right and eventually collided with the Toast of new York, and by that time they were all well outside of Bayern.

Everybody seems to think that Bayern caused more than the initial contact with SB, IMO, I saw no evidence of that after reviewing the videos many times, looking at all 4 horses involved in that section of the track (horses 4 through 7). Moreno was the large offender in all that subsequent mess, and that continued down the track, well forward of where the Bayern/SB contact took place, which was right out of the gate.

[thaskalos]

Did you not see the shots I posted above? In the 2nd one Garcia is standing up in the stirrups and pulling on the right rein. That straightened Bayern from where he was heading. He didn't start going hard left again until after Moreno and SB collided (which happened immediately after the Bayern/SB contact), which pushed SB behind Bayern, leaving clearance for him to go towards the rail again. If you're only looking at the head-on, you won't see how far back SB was forced, he was knocked into the back of Bayern and then forced behind Bayern by Moreno's continuing right move (as a matter of fact he kept going right and eventually collided with the Toast of new York, and by that time they were all well outside of Bayern.

Everybody seems to think that Bayern caused more than the initial contact with SB, IMO, I saw no evidence of that after reviewing the videos many times, looking at all 4 horses involved in that section of the track (horses 4 through 7). Moreno was the large offender in all that subsequent mess, and that continued down the track, well forward of where the Bayern/SB contact took place, which was right out of the gate.

Moreno stepped into the path of V.E., but the only contact Moreno was involved in was when he was clobbered by SB because of Bayern.

[Stillriledup]

Did you not see the shots I posted above? In the 2nd one Garcia is standing up in the stirrups and pulling on the right rein. That straightened Bayern from where he was heading. He didn't start going hard left again until after Moreno and SB collided (which happened immediately after the Bayern/SB contact), which pushed SB behind Bayern, leaving clearance for him to go towards the rail again. If you're only looking at the head-on, you won't see how far back SB was forced, he was knocked into the back of Bayern and then forced behind Bayern by Moreno's continuing right move (as a matter of fact he kept going right and eventually collided with the Toast of new York, and by that time they were all well outside of Bayern.

Everybody seems to think that Bayern caused more than the initial contact with SB, IMO, I saw no evidence of that after reviewing the videos many times, looking at all 4 horses involved in that section of the track (horses 4 through 7). Moreno was the large offender in all that subsequent mess, and that continued down the track, well forward of where the Bayern/SB contact took place, which was right out of the gate.

I think this is where we are disagreeing, you see Garcia pulling on the reign, but i don't see anything that suggests the horse moved outward or away from contact. So, while theoretically he "attempted" to correct, the horse never corrected, the horse just seemed to keep angling towards the rail.

If Garcia attempted to correct, it seemed like a half hearted attempt and a very quick attempt and the horse never responded at all to anything he did from what i saw.

[raybo]

Moreno stepped into the path of V.E., but the only contact Moreno was involved in was when he was clobbered by SB because of Bayern.Moreno didn't "step in the path of V.E." he went right after leaving the gate and continued moving right (no attempt at correction by his jockey that I could see in any of the videos available), into the 5-6 path when he collided with SB, and then he started going right again, pushing SB even wider and into the path of Toast of New York was taking (hard toward the rail), who cut him off and collided with Moreno who was still going right. All that subsequent contact happened to the right of Bayern.

[raybo]

I think this is where we are disagreeing, you see Garcia pulling on the reign, but i don't see anything that suggests the horse moved outward or away from contact. So, while theoretically he "attempted" to correct, the horse never corrected, the horse just seemed to keep angling towards the rail.

If Garcia attempted to correct, it seemed like a half hearted attempt and a very quick attempt and the horse never responded at all to anything he did from what i saw.

My last thoughts in this thread, take them or leave them, comment on them or don't.

I really don't see how you can watch the video, stopping action from the opening of the gate on (easy to do simply by quickly double clicking the run arrow in the videos) and not see that Bayern's 2nd step (still not completely out of the gate yet) started him lunging to the left. Then immediately Garcia's pulling the right rein and pulling Bayern's nose to the right (very clear to see both of those in the videos if you look closely at them). At that time the contact happened, with SB's right shoulder colliding with Bayerns left flank (already 1/2 length lost by SB before the collision), that caused SB's front end to be forced left, and because Bayern was contacted in the left flank that caused his front end to twist to the left. While Garcia did everything that could be expected of a rider to correct his left moving momentum, that twisting effect further hampered the correction Garcia was attempting. After the collision, SB was already off Bayern's left hind quarter and momentum from the bump sent him to the left just as Moreno's immediate right out of the gate and, continued right angling path, caused SB and Moreno to collide. All this happened within a 1 - 1 1/2 second time period, after the gate opened. So, in effect, SB was already behind Bayern in less than 2 seconds from the gate opening.

What did you expect Garcia to do after that? "Oh, we ran into that horse, I need to pull him up and even things out!"? Would you have done that? Heck no, you would have seen that the path to your left is now clear and you take that path. Why? Because that is your job! You take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself. Your job, on a front runner, is to get the lead and move towards the rail in order to put others inside you at a further disadvantage. That is exactly what he did. SB was already out of the fight for the lead, he was already a length behind Bayern.

I've tried very hard to look at those videos in a non-biased way, and I still come to the same conclusions. There was contact immediately out of the gate, which caused Bayern to be put at an advantage (but without any rider intent that is evident from any of the videos I viewed), and SB to be put at a disadvantage (bad luck, but he didn't get the jump that Bayern did, who beat everyone in the field out of the gate by at least a full step, that's why SB's right front contacted Bayern's left rear, made to happen almost immediately out of the gate because of Bayern's hard jump to the left, on his second step, and SB's slight jump to the right out of the gate). What happened after that contact, and Garcia's immediate rein correction, was not within the control of Garcia, his only thinking after that contact had to be, to do his job as a jockey, get the clear lead and get down closer to the rail. He did that job very well, IMO.

I'm sorry you guys see it differently, but I truly believe that no DQ was the absolute correct call. Would the finish order have been different had that stuff not happened? Nobody knows, we may have had a more highly contested pace between Bayern and Moreno, but that doesn't mean that that battle would have changed the order of finish (SB finished at least 3 lengths behind the 1,2,3 finishers and Moreno finished dead last, and was eased before the wire), and that is what the stewards must decide. They cannot be pace handicappers, they must look at the video, with a non-biased mind, and decide if the contact caused a horse to finish in a lower order than he would have otherwise. That was certainly not evident from the videos or the race results. SB may have had some trouble early but was still in good position well before the first turn in a 1 1/4 mile race, he was never going to contest the lead, even without the contact, because he did not get as good of a jump in the gate as did Bayern and others. As a steward you cannot speculate as to whether that trouble caused excess energy expenditure, or not. That is beyond their ability and beyond the scope of the rules pertaining to inquiries, and their subsequent investigation and ruling. "Intent" is the only thing that could have caused another ruling, and that is certainly not evident on close inspection of the videos, rather, just the opposite, correction was applied by Garcia immediately. Intent would have been to not attempt correction.

All this was unfortunate, for sure, but that is, and has always been, a big part of racing. Is it correctable in the future? IMO, probably not.

[pandy]

Rider intent doesn't matter. Bayern cut over sharply and caused serious interference. This is not that complicated. When horses come out of the gate a bit sideways and bumps the horse next to them, that is allowed because it's so common. This was different.

[thaskalos]

Moreno didn't "step in the path of V.E." he went right after leaving the gate and continued moving right (no attempt at correction by his jockey that I could see in any of the videos available), into the 5-6 path when he collided with SB, and then he started going right again, pushing SB even wider and into the path of Toast of New York was taking (hard toward the rail), who cut him off and collided with Moreno who was still going right. All that subsequent contact happened to the right of Bayern.
Raybo...with all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about. Yes...Moreno veered to the right coming out of the gate, but he made no contact whatsoever with the horse stationed next to him. The only contact that Moreno was involved in as he was veering to the right was when SB drove into him as a result of Bayern's antics out of the gate. You say you watched the head-on replay a thousand times...and you are still saying "look at what Moreno did...look at what Moreno did"? Moreno did NOTHING compared to what Bayern did. Moreno's sidestep to the right is the sort of thing that we see in every race. Any contact that Moreno was involved in was initiated by BAYERN. It's all there on the tape for heaven's sake.

[pandy]

That's correct. I used to be a chartcaller so I have a trained eye. Some people just aren't good at race watching, and believe me, chart calling is not easy. There were only two horses that caused interference, Bayern and Toast of New York both should have come down. Naturally a horse is going to shift course (Moreno) when it's run into. The judges admitted that Bayern caused interference.

[raybo]

Quoted from the Eric Mitchell article on Bloodhorse:

So be careful what you wish for. If Bayern had been disqualified, then Toast of New York had to come down, too. That would have left California Chrome “winning” the Classic through a double-disqualification after the dual classic winner had the opportunity to close on the leaders and didn’t get it done.

Not very satisfying.

The start of the Classic was a mess and certainly changed the complexion of the race. But would it have changed the outcome? Who knows. With no objection filed by Shared Belief’s jockey Mike Smith or any other rider and without the benefit of seeing what the stewards can see, it looks like the best horse won.

Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2014/11/04/classic-collision-by-eric-mitchell.aspx?&utm_source=DailyNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20141105#ixzz3IEOX9ctw

[Stillriledup]

Quoted from the Eric Mitchell article on Bloodhorse:



Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2014/11/04/classic-collision-by-eric-mitchell.aspx?&utm_source=DailyNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20141105#ixzz3IEOX9ctw

So, we're going to go on Mike Smith's conflict of interest and conflicting statements to stewards and others? Its obvious that anything Smith did or said should be held with a grain of salt, he should have been telling the judges how bad it was, etc and according to one of the judges, he didn't do that.

[raybo]

So, we're going to go on Mike Smith's conflict of interest and conflicting statements to stewards and others? Its obvious that anything Smith did or said should be held with a grain of salt, he should have been telling the judges how bad it was, etc and according to one of the judges, he didn't do that.

There were no filed objections, from any jockey in the race, not just from Smith. He said in interviews that Bayern cost him the race, but also said that he couldn't be sure.

Regarding "conflict of interest", you're expressing you're opinion on that, with no proof. I personally, don't think that a jockey of his stature would be in that position, of depending on Baffert for rides in the future, he rides for lots of trainers. We shouldn't state things like that, as truth, it only shows that our emotions may be getting in the way of our ability to see the truth. You don't know if that entered into Smith's thoughts at the time, or not, so you're better off leaving that stuff alone, IMO.

I'm sure that you don't want to go to "a foul is a foul is a foul", regardless of the spot it occurred. And obviously many people judge things totally different than others do, as is proven in this thread and all the other ones on this subject. Sometimes we agree with rulings and sometimes we don't, that is the fact of it.

No matter what you or anyone else does, there is no way Shared Belief or Moreno gets the win in that race. The best SB can do is be moved up to 2nd, and that is only if Bayern and Toast of New York are both disqualified. The interference at the start was a mess, and at the least, may have changed the early running of the race, but it is a long race and any horse that had enough ability, that day, to win the race had plenty of time left to do that. IMO, the finish order was as good as any other. We can't make SB the winner, or Moreno the winner, by disqualifying Bayern and/or Toast of New York, and that probably was a consideration by the stewards.

If Bayern had run slower fractions, the early pace thing would carry more weight, but he didn't run slow fractions, he ran very good fractions for a long race, and nobody could catch him despite that. With those fractions, if he didn't deserve the win, someone should have caught and passed him before the wire. Nobody could, not even CC, Bayern dug in and showed the kind of horse he is, on his best days, one tough customer.

Let the ruling stand and move on.

[Stillriledup]

There were no filed objections, from any jockey in the race, not just from Smith. He said in interviews that Bayern cost him the race, but also said that he couldn't be sure.

Regarding "conflict of interest", you're expressing you're opinion on that, with no proof. I personally, don't think that a jockey of his stature would be in that position, of depending on Baffert for rides in the future, he rides for lots of trainers. We shouldn't state things like that, as truth, it only shows that our emotions may be getting in the way of our ability to see the truth. You don't know if that entered into Smith's thoughts at the time, or not, so you're better off leaving that stuff alone, IMO.

I'm sure that you don't want to go to "a foul is a foul is a foul", regardless of the spot it occurred. And obviously many people judge things totally different than others do, as is proven in this thread and all the other ones on this subject. Sometimes we agree with rulings and sometimes we don't, that is the fact of it.

No matter what you or anyone else does, there is no way Shared Belief or Moreno gets the win in that race. The best SB can do is be moved up to 2nd, and that is only if Bayern and Toast of New York are both disqualified. The interference at the start was a mess, and at the least, may have changed the early running of the race, but it is a long race and any horse that had enough ability, that day, to win the race had plenty of time left to do that. IMO, the finish order was as good as any other. We can't make SB the winner, or Moreno the winner, by disqualifying Bayern and/or Toast of New York, and that probably was a consideration by the stewards.

If Bayern had run slower fractions, the early pace thing would carry more weight, but he didn't run slow fractions, he ran very good fractions for a long race, and nobody could catch him despite that. With those fractions, if he didn't deserve the win, someone should have caught and passed him before the wire. Nobody could, not even CC, Bayern dug in and showed the kind of horse he is, on his best days, one tough customer.

Let the ruling stand and move on.

It doesn't matter if it entered into his thoughts or not, its an absolute fact that Smith rides GREAT horses for Baffert, including Game on Dude who is one of the best horses that has raced on the west coast in recent memory.

For a conflict of interest to be present, corruption doesn't have to occur nor does it have to enter the thoughts of one of the parties to be present.

It doesn't mean Smith consciously didn't object because of his relationship with Baffert and it doesn't mean Smith is guilty of anything, but the conflict of interest is still present.

[raybo]

It doesn't matter if it entered into his thoughts or not, its an absolute fact that Smith rides GREAT horses for Baffert, including Game on Dude who is one of the best horses that has raced on the west coast in recent memory.

For a conflict of interest to be present, corruption doesn't have to occur nor does it have to enter the thoughts of one of the parties to be present.

It doesn't mean Smith consciously didn't object because of his relationship with Baffert and it doesn't mean Smith is guilty of anything, but the conflict of interest is still present.

Ok, you win, I give up. By the way, who did you bet to win the Classic?

[Stillriledup]

Ok, you win, I give up. By the way, who did you bet to win the Classic?

I boxed up some bombs in the exacta, i wasn't close to winning. If Bayern comes down, i'm still not close to winning. I would have needed the top 7 to get DQd to even be close. :D

[raybo]

Here's another shot of just the running styles and velocity rankings for FR1 (start to 1st call), average FR1 and FR2 (start to 2nd call), and average of FR2 and FR3 (1st call to finish). Something new I added to the program to get a better idea of who might be leading during different segments of the race.

[Greyfox]

There were no filed objections, from any jockey in the race, not just from Smith. He said in interviews that Bayern cost him the race, but also said that he couldn't be sure.

Regarding "conflict of interest", you're expressing you're opinion on that, with no proof. I personally, don't think that a jockey of his stature would be in that position, of depending on Baffert for rides in the future, he rides for lots of trainers. We shouldn't state things like that, as truth, it only shows that our emotions may be getting in the way of our ability to see the truth. You don't know if that entered into Smith's thoughts at the time, or not, so you're better off leaving that stuff alone, IMO.

I'm sure that you don't want to go to "a foul is a foul is a foul", regardless of the spot it occurred. And obviously many people judge things totally different than others do, as is proven in this thread and all the other ones on this subject. Sometimes we agree with rulings and sometimes we don't, that is the fact of it.

No matter what you or anyone else does, there is no way Shared Belief or Moreno gets the win in that race. The best SB can do is be moved up to 2nd, and that is only if Bayern and Toast of New York are both disqualified. The interference at the start was a mess, and at the least, may have changed the early running of the race, but it is a long race and any horse that had enough ability, that day, to win the race had plenty of time left to do that. IMO, the finish order was as good as any other. We can't make SB the winner, or Moreno the winner, by disqualifying Bayern and/or Toast of New York, and that probably was a consideration by the stewards.

If Bayern had run slower fractions, the early pace thing would carry more weight, but he didn't run slow fractions, he ran very good fractions for a long race, and nobody could catch him despite that. With those fractions, if he didn't deserve the win, someone should have caught and passed him before the wire. Nobody could, not even CC, Bayern dug in and showed the kind of horse he is, on his best days, one tough customer.

Let the ruling stand and move on.

Well said! :ThmbUp: My sentiments exactly.

Greyfox

[PaceAdvantage]

It doesn't matter if it entered into his thoughts or not, its an absolute fact that Smith rides GREAT horses for Baffert, including Game on Dude who is one of the best horses that has raced on the west coast in recent memory.

For a conflict of interest to be present, corruption doesn't have to occur nor does it have to enter the thoughts of one of the parties to be present.

It doesn't mean Smith consciously didn't object because of his relationship with Baffert and it doesn't mean Smith is guilty of anything, but the conflict of interest is still present.You should contact the attorney general in Cali and see if you can have him indicted for high crimes and misdemeanors.

[Stillriledup]

You should contact the attorney general in Cali and see if you can have him indicted for high crimes and misdemeanors.

I can't even pretend to care. Its up to the industry to discipline whoever they feel needs to be disciplined. Its my job to bet on winners.

[thaskalos]

I can't even pretend to care. Its up to the industry to discipline whoever they feel needs to be disciplined. Its my job to bet on winners.
You tell him, SRU. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't even pretend to care. Its up to the industry to discipline whoever they feel needs to be disciplined. Its my job to bet on winners.How do you find the time?

[ultracapper]

There were no filed objections, from any jockey in the race, not just from Smith. He said in interviews that Bayern cost him the race, but also said that he couldn't be sure.

Regarding "conflict of interest", you're expressing you're opinion on that, with no proof. I personally, don't think that a jockey of his stature would be in that position, of depending on Baffert for rides in the future, he rides for lots of trainers. We shouldn't state things like that, as truth, it only shows that our emotions may be getting in the way of our ability to see the truth. You don't know if that entered into Smith's thoughts at the time, or not, so you're better off leaving that stuff alone, IMO.

I'm sure that you don't want to go to "a foul is a foul is a foul", regardless of the spot it occurred. And obviously many people judge things totally different than others do, as is proven in this thread and all the other ones on this subject. Sometimes we agree with rulings and sometimes we don't, that is the fact of it.

No matter what you or anyone else does, there is no way Shared Belief or Moreno gets the win in that race. The best SB can do is be moved up to 2nd, and that is only if Bayern and Toast of New York are both disqualified. The interference at the start was a mess, and at the least, may have changed the early running of the race, but it is a long race and any horse that had enough ability, that day, to win the race had plenty of time left to do that. IMO, the finish order was as good as any other. We can't make SB the winner, or Moreno the winner, by disqualifying Bayern and/or Toast of New York, and that probably was a consideration by the stewards.

If Bayern had run slower fractions, the early pace thing would carry more weight, but he didn't run slow fractions, he ran very good fractions for a long race, and nobody could catch him despite that. With those fractions, if he didn't deserve the win, someone should have caught and passed him before the wire. Nobody could, not even CC, Bayern dug in and showed the kind of horse he is, on his best days, one tough customer.

Let the ruling stand and move on.
I was just getting ready to comment how SRU's speculation of Smith's thoughts/motives had evolved into "obvious" conflict of interest that is now agreed to by all.

SRU, I thought it was silly when you first brought it up, and now you've let it spin into the absurd. Smith and Baffert have both been around a long time and I'd be comfortable thinking that Mike Smith is free to air his opinions as he sees them on something like this, and if Baffert doesn't like it, well, that's a shame. Mike Smith doesn't need Bob Baffert to feed his family. And this idea that Baffert has some kind of incredible, power-wielding position in SoCal is getting crazier and crazier as these threads move along.

[Stillriledup]

I was just getting ready to comment how SRU's speculation of Smith's thoughts/motives had evolved into "obvious" conflict of interest that is now agreed to by all.

SRU, I thought it was silly when you first brought it up, and now you've let it spin into the absurd. Smith and Baffert have both been around a long time and I'd be comfortable thinking that Mike Smith is free to air his opinions as he sees them on something like this, and if Baffert doesn't like it, well, that's a shame. Mike Smith doesn't need Bob Baffert to feed his family. And this idea that Baffert has some kind of incredible, power-wielding position in SoCal is getting crazier and crazier as these threads move along.

This is true. IF, Baffert is the type of person to not hold a grudge.

[ultracapper]

Baffert is a horseman, and a very successful one. MSmith is a jockey, and a damn good one. When the time comes that pooling their talents is to both their benefits, stuff like this, as long as it never got personal, combative, or deceitful, will be forgotten. Smith telling the stewards that contact with Bayern cost him lengths wouldn't send Baffert on tilt, unless he's just an unreasonable whack job. Can you really imagine Smith walking to the stewards room, and Baffert standing in a strategic spot, giving him the eye, and Smith interpreting it to mean keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for your riding prospects? Smith probably cooled down in the time it took him to get to the stewards, faced the facts that Shared Belief was just a smidge flat in the stretch, and made his statement.

[Stillriledup]

Baffert is a horseman, and a very successful one. MSmith is a jockey, and a damn good one. When the time comes that pooling their talents is to both their benefits, stuff like this, as long as it never got personal, combative, or deceitful, will be forgotten. Smith telling the stewards that contact with Bayern cost him lengths wouldn't send Baffert on tilt, unless he's just an unreasonable whack job. Can you really imagine Smith walking to the stewards room, and Baffert standing in a strategic spot, giving him the eye, and Smith interpreting it to mean keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for your riding prospects? Smith probably cooled down in the time it took him to get to the stewards, faced the facts that Shared Belief was just a smidge flat in the stretch, and made his statement.

I was always under the impression that jocks lobbied HARD to the judges for a DQ and to get placed up, especially in a 5 million dollar race. Why would Smith basically tell the judges that it was not that bad? There must be a reason he didn't plead with the judges that he was destroyed and really try extremely hard to convince them he was cost a placing?

If you're going to try and make the case that there's no way Smith was trying to protect Baffert, you have to come up with another reason why he would just say what he said to the stewards.

[ultracapper]

Dude, he didn't call foul. They called him in.

[Stillriledup]

Dude, he didn't call foul. They called him in.

So right, why not claim foul? That's pretty odd don't you think? Also, even if you didn't claim foul, why not tell the stewards that your horse almost got his skull cracked, you heard the horse cry in pain when he got hit, it was the hardest bump you've felt in your entire career and don't know how you stayed on board, etc.

Why not "play it up" and try and convince the stewards that your owner deserves 200k more in his pocket?

[rastajenk]

Uh, 'cause he's a professional race rider who's been around a little bit?

[Stillriledup]

Uh, 'cause he's a professional race rider who's been around a little bit?

What does this supposed to mean? I dont get your point.

[rastajenk]

"why not tell the stewards that your horse almost got his skull cracked, you heard the horse cry in pain when he got hit, it was the hardest bump you've felt in your entire career and don't know how you stayed on board, etc."

Well, since none of those things happened, and since he has to maintain a decent relationship with those stewards (instead of some non-racing independent arbiters shipped in just for this occasion, as some have suggested), maybe he's smart enough to not fake it. You know, behave like you've seen everything before and not act like some scripted pro wrestler or any other con-man comparison you could come up with.


Aaargh... :bang: I keep telling myself not to get into back-and-forths with a knucklehead like you; I usually regret my momentary lapses of discipline.

[ultracapper]

"why not tell the stewards that your horse almost got his skull cracked, you heard the horse cry in pain when he got hit, it was the hardest bump you've felt in your entire career and don't know how you stayed on board, etc."

Well, since none of those things happened, and since he has to maintain a decent relationship with those stewards (instead of some non-racing independent arbiters shipped in just for this occasion, as some have suggested), maybe he's smart enough to not fake it. You know, behave like you've seen everything before and not act like some scripted pro wrestler or any other con-man comparison you could come up with.


Aaargh... :bang: I keep telling myself not to get into back-and-forths with a knucklehead like you; I usually regret my momentary lapses of discipline.

Thank you. Let's cry wolf everytime the stewards want to talk to him so they never take you seriously again.

Smith wasn't riding for just anybody either. "Hey Jerry-Mr-Nobody-Hollendorfer, I'm throwing you under the bus to protect his white haired majesty, you know, the one that I tossed his horse to the side in the $1,000,000 Pacific classic so I could ride your horse.

SRU, you need to punt on this one. Now.

You don't think passing on Game On Dude for Shared Belief wasn't enough to sour Baffert on him, but going into the stewards office and saying, hey I got hit out of the gate and it cost me lengths, that's going to piss Baffert off for eternity. Sorry dude, your babbling now.

[Stillriledup]

"why not tell the stewards that your horse almost got his skull cracked, you heard the horse cry in pain when he got hit, it was the hardest bump you've felt in your entire career and don't know how you stayed on board, etc."

Well, since none of those things happened, and since he has to maintain a decent relationship with those stewards (instead of some non-racing independent arbiters shipped in just for this occasion, as some have suggested), maybe he's smart enough to not fake it. You know, behave like you've seen everything before and not act like some scripted pro wrestler or any other con-man comparison you could come up with.


Aaargh... :bang: I keep telling myself not to get into back-and-forths with a knucklehead like you; I usually regret my momentary lapses of discipline.

Jocks bend the truth all the time, as far as none of those things happening, if the jock told that to the judges, they happened as far as he was concerned. We are not privy to know what jocks tell stewards, but the argument i was originally making, which you didn't answer, was why would Smith not at least say "yes, it cost me lengths and i believe it cost me a board spot".

As far as the knucklehead comment goes, how about sticking to the topic and not taking personal shots at people you don't agree with. Cmon, you're better than that.

[Stillriledup]

Thank you. Let's cry wolf everytime the stewards want to talk to him so they never take you seriously again.

Smith wasn't riding for just anybody either. "Hey Jerry-Mr-Nobody-Hollendorfer, I'm throwing you under the bus to protect his white haired majesty, you know, the one that I tossed his horse to the side in the $1,000,000 Pacific classic so I could ride your horse.

SRU, you need to punt on this one. Now.

You don't think passing on Game On Dude for Shared Belief wasn't enough to sour Baffert on him, but going into the stewards office and saying, hey I got hit out of the gate and it cost me lengths, that's going to piss Baffert off for eternity. Sorry dude, your babbling now.

All i know is that Smith didn't lobby for a DQ according to Chaney. He essentially lobbied for Bayern to stay up.

Why, we will never know, ask Smith next time you see him.

[cj]

Stewards should not discuss these things with jockeys. Use visual evidence, make a ruling, and move on.

[raybo]

Stewards should not discuss these things with jockeys. Use visual evidence, make a ruling, and move on.

I agree, unless there is an objection lodged by the jockey, which in this case was not done. Anyone, trying to make a case that a top jockey like Mike Smith, would not lodge an objection, if he really thought a foul occurred and certainly caused him to lose position and purse money (much less to not do it because of the trainer of the horse being Bob Baffert, who is a very successful professional who knows that things like this happen all the time and, I am sure, has had similar things happen to his horses in the past, with rulings going the other way, and knows it is part of the game), is IMO, grasping for straws, and just trying to create controversy. Of course, we all know that SRU would never stoop to doing such a thing. :lol:

[Stillriledup]

I agree, unless there is an objection lodged by the jockey, which in this case was not done. Anyone, trying to make a case that a top jockey like Mike Smith, would not lodge an objection, if he really thought a foul occurred and certainly caused him to lose position and purse money (much less to not do it because of the trainer of the horse being Bob Baffert, who is a very successful professional who knows that things like this happen all the time and, I am sure, has had similar things happen to his horses in the past, with rulings going the other way, and knows it is part of the game), is IMO, grasping for straws, and just trying to create controversy. Of course, we all know that SRU would never stoop to doing such a thing. :lol:

Yes, i'm creating controversy, its all me, if it wasn't for me posting about this at PA, guys like Paulick, Privman and other media outlets and personalities would never even discuss it. So yeah, i'll take credit for whipping up a storm of controversy surrounding the BC Classic.

Guilty as charged. :D