Beware of 5Dimes horse racing

[Dark Horse]

I've been checking out offshore, with small amounts (because of a general lack of trust).

So I won this race at SA today. Maybellene won and paid 6.20, beating the 3/5 favorite and another horse. Close race, as you can see here: http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/SA102314USA2.pdf

Of course the track paid the winnings. But I had played it offshore, at 5Dimes, and - surprise! - they took the bet, but didn't honor it. Reason? There were only three horses in the race.

Excuse me?! Isn't it about odds?

5 Dimes is mostly about sports. To point out the obvious, most sports games in the NFL, NBA, NHL and, well, in fact all, have only two horses in the race. Should we cancel all those, Tony?

So they created an arbitrary rule, and I post about it here to warn you not to play there. They also close races regularly five minutes before they go off. At main tracks... I thought they would know their business with horses, as they do with sports, but I was wrong.

[thaskalos]

Would they have honored the wager if it lost?

[Dark Horse]

I couldn't tell you that. They sure as hell didn't pay back races that I lost. I know that.

In my experience they don't offer horse racing as alternative to going to the track, but as a virtual game based on horse racing, where they can insert rules and/or cut off races as they see fit.

[GameTheory]

Look at their rules for racing. The first one is:

"A race must have a minimum of 4 runners or all wagers will be no action." Pretty typical for a non-commingling book to have rules like that. Just be aware of them...

[Stillriledup]

I couldn't tell you that. They sure as hell didn't pay back races that I lost. I know that.

In my experience they don't offer horse racing as alternative to going to the track, but as a virtual game based on horse racing, where they can insert rules and/or cut off races as they see fit.

Is there a way you could tell if the money was refunded to your account BEFORE the race actually ran? As soon as the field went to 3, the money should have been in your account.

[cj]

I found them pretty good for an offshore book in the past, don't think they are ripping people on stuff like this. I'm 99.9% sure he'd be refunded win or lose.

[Dark Horse]

I didn't check their arbitrary rules. There was a relatively late scratch, but it happened well before I placed my wager, which they obviously accepted. When there's a sports dispute they will abide by the score of NFL.com, NBA.com, NHL.com, and so on. But in horse racing they won't abide by the track in question. That, to me, is the bottom line. They're good enough at sports, but they really are terrible at horse racing. Unless you don't mind races being taken off the board five minutes before they go off. :ThmbDown:

[Mineshaft]

The race only had 3 horses yet they took the bet anyway ? fawk them..

[ReplayRandall]

Is there a way you could tell if the money was refunded to your account BEFORE the race actually ran? As soon as the field went to 3, the money should have been in your account.


All transactions are "settled" 10 minutes after prices are posted final. When field went to 3, transaction was considered a scratch, the refund dispersed after settled action completed.........been there, done that.

[cj]

I didn't check their arbitrary rules. There was a relatively late scratch, but it happened well before I placed my wager, which they obviously accepted. When there's a sports dispute they will abide by the score of NFL.com, NBA.com, NHL.com, and so on. But in horse racing they won't abide by the track in question. That, to me, is the bottom line. They're good enough at sports, but they really are terrible at horse racing. Unless you don't mind races being taken off the board five minutes before they go off. :ThmbDown:

Of course the advantages are good rebates (sort of) and your bets not going in the pool. The one thing you have to do with offshore is know the rules, or eventually you'll learn the hard way. A 2-1 winner is a lot cheaper lesson to learn than other stories I've heard.

[Stillriledup]

All transactions are "settled" 10 minutes after prices are posted final. When field went to 3, transaction was considered a scratch, the refund dispersed after settled action completed.........been there, done that.

But this place isn't parimutuel, so they don't need to wait till the race is over like a real track would. Am i right about that?

[dansan]

never bet a race with less 5 horses thats my rule :eek:

[ReplayRandall]

But this place isn't parimutuel, so they don't need to wait till the race is over like a real track would. Am i right about that?

SRU, you are correct, but it's wagering by their rules.

never bet a race with less 5 horses thats my rule

Dansan, I was making a hedge win bet to cover a Pick-4 pay-off.....

[GameTheory]

Books like these don't grade wagers in real-time or even necessarily keep track of scratches. They even warn you not to past post (because it is "allowed" from a technical standpoint) or will you get your account canceled. Bets after a certain time each evening are not graded until the next day...

[Stillriledup]

Here's what i don't get.

Since this is not a pari mutuel book, they can essentially just "not pay" if there are any "irregularities". So, why not just permit betting on a 3 horse field and if everything is on the up and up, pay the winners.

In other words, the original reason for not accepting bets on 3 horse races isn't applicable to this book, because they can just 'not pay' if they don't want to.

[GameTheory]

Here's what i don't get.

Since this is not a pari mutuel book, they can essentially just "not pay" if there are any "irregularities". So, why not just permit betting on a 3 horse field and if everything is on the up and up, pay the winners.

In other words, the original reason for not accepting bets on 3 horse races isn't applicable to this book, because they can just 'not pay' if they don't want to.
Since they are not pari-mutuel, they care if you win or lose -- they want you to lose. I think the reason is simply they don't make money on the short fields, or they have the possibility of getting hammered on the favorite and not enough other horses to draw some other money. (They are paying rebates also, btw.)

[Stillriledup]

Since they are not pari-mutuel, they care if you win or lose -- they want you to lose. I think the reason is simply they don't make money on the short fields, or they have the possibility of getting hammered on the favorite and not enough other horses to draw some other money. (They are paying rebates also, btw.)

I would think that eliminating bets on very short fields was due to their not wanting to get hammered for a large amount of money if the race is not on the up and up. But, like i said, they just can decide not to pay if they think something looks odd, so that's why i wasn't sure why they would care to have that 3 horse rule.

As far as them not making money on short fields, the breakage matters more in those races because there are no "longshots" almost all of the horses are going to be 2-1 or less, you can take advantage of the breakage in those situations, they should WANT 3 horse fields, its more money for them as they pay off the equivalent to the win price at the track which can be rounded down as much as 19 cents at most tracks.

[jettroofer]

I have a book I play with currently who I think stiffed me recently and did it on purpose. I have played with them for years since Texas sucks regarding ADW's and have cashed out smaller amounts of around a grand here and there. I hit a nice race for several k's at Belmont a few weeks back and commenced to cash out $4k. I received 2 separate checks. One for $1000 drawn off a bank in Canada and one for $3k drawn off of, I believe, the Bank of NY. Needless to say, the $3K check bounced and was back charged to my account. I started calling and emailing and they opened an 'issue' on the matter. They informed me that they would get to the bottom of it in 48 hours. Miraculously, I get an email about 2 days later that doesn't reference a thing about my 'dispute' but is informing me not to deposit the $3K check because there was a printing error so they voided it. The check actually didn't clear because of a stop payment. However, they were so nice to immediately add the $3k back to my account. I am very suspicious about it. I would like to tell you I tested them and immediately cashed it back out to test the system again for that amount, but like a dumbass I did exactly what they expected me to do and burned it up trying to double it. LOL. I'm not sure if it was just a happenstance or if the book meant to do it.

The moral of the story is that Texas gambling is horse sh*&&^ and should allow us to use legitimate online books to place our horse bets.

[Track Phantom]

I have used a lot of off-shores for sports and horses. I trust only ONE and that is GT Bets. You can withdraw (with a fee, which does suck) and the money will hit your bank account within 4-6 days.

I have had a good experience with their customer service and they have very solid rebates/bonuses. In fact, I've worked out a deal with them to give a reload bonus + $25 bet on any BC race for people that reference Track Phantom. Not earth shattering stuff but still free.

Once you have a platform you trust, I wouldn't consider any others.

(PM me if you want the details about reload which is 100% for a new player + $25 win bet).

[Dark Horse]

I've never had a problem with Bookmaker. And Heritage has been good for me as well, but it's been a while and I don't recall if they keep the races open until post time. As mentioned, 5D doesn't monitor the track at all, and very often closes a race five minutes before it goes off. That really drove me nuts during the short time I bet horses there. Today's cancellation, a literal punishment for playing at this book instead of elsewhere, was just the final drop. Offshore has gone downhill fast in recent years. One book stole thousands from me, so I'm cautious and hypersensitive these days to the ease with which they turn to cheating.

[Dark Horse]

Here's what i don't get.

Since this is not a pari mutuel book, they can essentially just "not pay" if there are any "irregularities". So, why not just permit betting on a 3 horse field and if everything is on the up and up, pay the winners.

In other words, the original reason for not accepting bets on 3 horse races isn't applicable to this book, because they can just 'not pay' if they don't want to.

The rule is bs. Throw in a 50/1 longshot and you have a 4 horse field.

In a three horse field a 2/1 horse beating a 3/5 horse is actually the longshot. In a larger field that horse wouldn't be 2/1. So .... what added risk does the book run? Everybody betting on the favorite?

I doubt the rule is about irregularities, because they can and do happen in any size field.

[thaskalos]

The rule is bs. Throw in a 50/1 longshot and you have a 4 horse field.

In a three horse field a 2/1 horse beating a 3/5 horse is actually the longshot. In a larger field that horse wouldn't be 2/1. So .... what added risk does the book run? Everybody betting on the favorite?

I doubt the rule is about irregularities, because they can and do happen in any size field.
The rule is in place to protect the book against a big bet in an easy-to-figure-out race. In a three horse field, the likely winner almost always sticks out...and the overseas book is not protected by the odds drop that a big bet on the likely winner would cause. Since the bet is kept out of the track's perimutuel pool...the only protection against this scenario that the book has is to refuse the wagers on these tiny pools.

[incoming]

I've never had a problem with Bookmaker. And Heritage has been good for me as well, but it's been a while and I don't recall if they keep the races open until post time. As mentioned, 5D doesn't monitor the track at all, and very often closes a race five minutes before it goes off. That really drove me nuts during the short time I bet horses there. Today's cancellation, a literal punishment for playing at this book instead of elsewhere, was just the final drop. Offshore has gone downhill fast in recent years. One book stole thousands from me, so I'm cautious and hypersensitive these days to the ease with which they turn to cheating.

I am a 5 Dime customer. When there is a difference between 5D race time and actual race time a browser refresh always solves my problem. They generally stop taking bets during the loading process. Yes, they even take bets on scratches but they have always been refunded. The scratches or clearly noted on the betting screen.

[judd]

I use heritage for golf & sports but stick with xpressbet FOR horses
no problems at all with heritage

[theiman]

If the race is :1: :1a: :2: :3: :4:
and then the :4: is a Late Scratch do they accept the wager or refund it?

[raybo]

If the race is :1: :1a: :2: :3: :4:
and then the :4: is a Late Scratch do they accept the wager or refund it?

It is probably 3 betting interests, not 3 horses. Which in your scenario would be 3 betting interests and probably no race

[Dark Horse]

The rule is in place to protect the book against a big bet in an easy-to-figure-out race. In a three horse field, the likely winner almost always sticks out...and the overseas book is not protected by the odds drop that a big bet on the likely winner would cause. Since the bet is kept out of the track's perimutuel pool...the only protection against this scenario that the book has is to refuse the wagers on these tiny pools.

Obviously, the rule is there to protect the book, but it's so arbitrary. They could lower the limit instead.

Here is the race, by the way. To get an idea why it p*ssed me off even more. It may have been a three horse race, but the finish was better than what most races offer.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/race/USA/SA/2014/10/23/2/race-2-aoc-at-sa-on-10-23-14

[Dark Horse]

I use heritage for golf & sports but stick with xpressbet FOR horses
no problems at all with heritage

Heritage is good. They used to be great back in the day, before Spiro sent over all the US players from the Greek. That put a damper on things.

[happy camper]

One of the best offshore places, if not the best.

Not too many places offer pick 6, pick 5, and pick 4 wagering with a respectable max payout. This place does. The betting denominations are lower vs mutual.

If you hit here, you don't have to worry about getting paid. Offshore is a risk, but if you play offshore, this would be the safest place.

They have two racing platforms. Which one locks up 5 minutes before races?

If it helps you identify which one it is, the plus 10% platofrm is DGS software.

DGS horses has a reputation for being asleep behind the wheel. I'm not talking about scratches either.

[happy camper]

I recall responding to this thread and I see I did.

I've been playing with 5Dimes pretty much for the past months.

I played the pick 5 and pick 4 at Aqueduct yesterday and was out after the first leg of each. I forgot about the rule Dark Horse mentioned since I gathered he played straight bets.

They refunded the pk5 and p4 bets since race 3 ended up with 3 runners.

It worked in my favor this time, but I have a feeling it will come back to haunt me down the road.

I see what Dark Horse meant by closing the races early. It seems they go the noted start time, but seldom leave it open past it. That is the rebate racebook. If you use the 10% rebate racebook, they remain open usually until the race goes off. Proceed with caution when using this software, DGS, because they leave races open sometimes and are prone to past betting, whether done on purpose or not.

[green80]

Here's what i don't get.

Since this is not a pari mutuel book, they can essentially just "not pay" if there are any "irregularities". So, why not just permit betting on a 3 horse field and if everything is on the up and up, pay the winners.

In other words, the original reason for not accepting bets on 3 horse races isn't applicable to this book, because they can just 'not pay' if they don't want to.

Because they want to stay in business. I wouldn't want to pay out all those show bets on a 3 horse field

[green80]

Everyone needs an offshore book or two. If you want to make a larger wager into the pool at a small or mid-sized track, bet offshore so that you won't reduce your own payout. If have seen $50 bring a horse's payout down to the next .20. Betting into a 25000 pool a 200 win bet will reduce a horses win mutual from 16.60 to 15.20.

[happy camper]

Because they want to stay in business. I wouldn't want to pay out all those show bets on a 3 horse field


There wouldn't be a show pool.

[agameofskill]

Everyone needs an offshore book or two. If you want to make a larger wager into the pool at a small or mid-sized track, bet offshore so that you won't reduce your own payout. If have seen $50 bring a horse's payout down to the next .20. Betting into a 25000 pool a 200 win bet will reduce a horses win mutual from 16.60 to 15.20.

Actually, they don't. If you are using an off-shore book, not only is your money at risk, but you are NOT supporting the game here in the United States. Plain and simple.

[thaskalos]

Actually, they don't. If you are using an off-shore book, not only is your money at risk, but you are NOT supporting the game here in the United States. Plain and simple.
Nonsense...the player's loyalty is to his wallet. He learned this from the horsemen. If using an offshore account suits the player's needs...then there in nothing wrong with it.

[TEJAS KIDD]

This goes back to the original post.
Let me get this right.
You are bad mouthing an offshore race book and warning us about them because they followed the rules that they post on their website? :bang:

Their rule probably has something to do with the rebates they offer.

And they do pay.

[SecretAgentMan]

I've been checking out offshore, with small amounts (because of a general lack of trust).

So I won this race at SA today. Maybellene won and paid 6.20, beating the 3/5 favorite and another horse. Close race, as you can see here: http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/SA102314USA2.pdf

Of course the track paid the winnings. But I had played it offshore, at 5Dimes, and - surprise! - they took the bet, but didn't honor it. Reason? There were only three horses in the race.

Excuse me?! Isn't it about odds?

5 Dimes is mostly about sports. To point out the obvious, most sports games in the NFL, NBA, NHL and, well, in fact all, have only two horses in the race. Should we cancel all those, Tony?

So they created an arbitrary rule, and I post about it here to warn you not to play there. They also close races regularly five minutes before they go off. At main tracks... I thought they would know their business with horses, as they do with sports, but I was wrong.


I know a few people that won big money at 5dimes & had their accounts closed & didn't receive a penny, they got shafted. 5dimes is very shady, stay far away!

They want the $50 & $100 players that bet 30 games a week & lose constantly. Know a guy that had his limits dropped to $25 a game, lmao, unreal, what a joke of a book!

As for horse racing, I don't know anyone that plays horses online, & neither do I. Question is, why would you bet online when horse race betting is legal everywhere?

[big frank]

10 percent on any winning win bets or exotics is hard not to like.....i would say that deal is better than rebates

[Dave Schwartz]

Books like these don't grade wagers in real-time or even necessarily keep track of scratches. They even warn you not to past post (because it is "allowed" from a technical standpoint) or will you get your account canceled. Bets after a certain time each evening are not graded until the next day...

Game Theory is, as usual, spot on with his assessment.

It is a very common condition in the rules of bookmakers.


Here's what i don't get.

Since this is not a pari mutuel book, they can essentially just "not pay" if there are any "irregularities". So, why not just permit betting on a 3 horse field and if everything is on the up and up, pay the winners.

In other words, the original reason for not accepting bets on 3 horse races isn't applicable to this book, because they can just 'not pay' if they don't want to.

If they truly choose to sidestep losing propositions by breaking their own rules, my guess is that the word would spread quickly.

Rarely do I say this, but PA is probably not the optimal place for this complaint. There is probably a place where more bookie-players mingle that would give better responses.

My gut feeling is that - because it is so clearly in their rules - it is probably a legitimate non-payment.

[Fingal]

Game Theory is, as usual, spot on with his assessment.

It is a very common condition in the rules of bookmakers.




If they truly choose to sidestep losing propositions by breaking their own rules, my guess is that the word would spread quickly.

Rarely do I say this, but PA is probably not the optimal place for this complaint. There is probably a place where more bookie-players mingle that would give better responses.

My gut feeling is that - because it is so clearly in their rules - it is probably a legitimate non-payment.

Places like www.therx.com & www.sportsbookreview.com are good for that. Both also have a place for lodging complaints relating to payouts, etc.

But each book lists their own rules to make an event "go", & they relate not only to horses but any type of sporting event. Before opening an account & placing a wager it's up to the player to familiarize themselves with them.

[lamboguy]

i remember betting the Barbary Coast Casino in Las Vegas baseball where pick was $102.50 for $100. it wasn't that bad, but you could never make a big score with it.

[Dark Horse]

As for horse racing, I don't know anyone that plays horses online, & neither do I. Question is, why would you bet online when horse race betting is legal everywhere?

Plenty of advantages. Offshore action won't change the odds (in horse racing). A place like Betfair lets you bet against horses, as well as lock in your odds in an exchange format. The IRS isn't looking over your shoulder. An outfit like 5D will give you an extra 10 percent for a win.

5Dimes is a good enough sports book. They never differentiate themselves from others by creating their own rules in sports. And so it never even occurred to me that they might have a horse racing rule where they would be the only book not to pay. Obviously, I would have placed my bet elsewhere had I been aware of this rule. Anyway, I moved on from 5D. I don't have time to check their rules every day or week, and I want to be able to expect that the rules are the same as everywhere else.