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BlinkersOn
10-08-2014, 07:12 AM
Cigar has passed away after surgery of a heart attack. I'm so sad, as he was my all time favorite horse. I'm so glad I got to see him run in the 95BC at Belmont. I've heard he wasn't doing well, with some foot problems, for some time, but I didn't ever dream he was in such dire straits. I so wish there had been beautiful offspring to leave behind as a living legacy. Run free beautiful boy, with all the greats that have gone before you.

RacingFan1992
10-08-2014, 07:15 AM
Rest In Peace, Old Timer.

lamboguy
10-08-2014, 08:23 AM
what a great star we just lost. my thanks to the people that gave us the pleasure in watching him perform, The Paulson family, Bill Mott, Jerry Bailey and all the grooms, hotwalkers and exercise riders that were part of the team.

RIP, CIGAR, you are gone but will never be forgotten.

DJofSD
10-08-2014, 08:25 AM
Sorry to learn of his passing.

My best memory of Cigar is likely not one most would care to remember.

BlinkersOn
10-08-2014, 11:45 AM
Sorry to learn of his passing.

My best memory of Cigar is likely not one most would care to remember.


I may have been there that day. Is it the one where the great Holy Bull broke down? Cigar won, but the luster of that day was greatly tarnished by the breakdown of Holy Bull...he was an all time great also.

DJofSD
10-08-2014, 11:47 AM
I may have been there that day. Is it the one where the great Holy Bull broke down? Cigar won, but the luster of that day was greatly tarnished by the breakdown of Holy Bull...he was an all time great also.
Nope. The Pacific Classic. I cashed a nice exacta.

racko
10-08-2014, 11:48 AM
I was at Del Mar when he lost. The place went absolutely silent.

DJofSD
10-08-2014, 11:50 AM
I was at Del Mar when he lost. The place went absolutely silent.
As was I. It's not nice to tell people 'I told you so' when they looking at losing tickets. But, dinner was on me.

classhandicapper
10-08-2014, 12:05 PM
Nope. The Pacific Classic. I cashed a nice exacta.

One of Jerry Bailey's rare terrible rides using Cigar prematurely into the fast pace.

dilanesp
10-08-2014, 12:30 PM
I may have been there that day. Is it the one where the great Holy Bull broke down? Cigar won, but the luster of that day was greatly tarnished by the breakdown of Holy Bull...he was an all time great also.

The thing is, at the time nobody really knew how good Cigar was. He was a much better horse than Holy Bull-- the 16 race winning streak, shipping all over the country and the world, taking on every good horse in training, winning the BC Classic, carrying 130 pounds.

He's the best horse in the 1990's, and Holy Bull didn't even deserve to be in the same shedrow as him.

Having said that, there are 2 things that people should really remember about Cigar:

1. Everyone eventually gets beat, if you run them often enough against good competition. The fans of undefeated horses like Personal Ensign should know that the way you achieve that sort of record is by rarely running in a tough race.

2. If you have a horse like Cigar, you SHOULD do what Paulson did. Cigar drew 40,000 people at many of the tracks he went to. He ran against everyone. He carried weight. In many ways, his streak and Citation's streak are the greatest achievements in American racing history, precisely because those two horses were not babied or protected. Unfortunately, most owners and trainers would have protected the horse and never allowed him to establish just how great he was.

dilanesp
10-08-2014, 12:32 PM
One of Jerry Bailey's rare terrible rides using Cigar prematurely into the fast pace.

I think he ended up getting overconfident with Cigar. If you look at his ride in the Hollywood Gold Cup, or the Breeders' Cup Classic, it's basically the same ride. Close to the pace, going very wide, losing ground. He rode the horse like he was under the assumption that the horse was always much the best and that he didn't have to save ground or monitor the pace. It eventually burned him.

ReplayRandall
10-08-2014, 12:49 PM
One of Jerry Bailey's rare terrible rides using Cigar prematurely into the fast pace.


On a side note, it's rather ironic that 8 years later Bailey's questionable ride on Eddington to induce Stewart Elliott to move prematurely aboard Smarty Jones, cost racing fans another chance to witness history in the Belmont Stakes.....Two chances at history, Bailey involved on both sides of the coin.

pandy
10-08-2014, 01:49 PM
The great Cigar was responsible for creating a lot of racing fans. I have a framed photo of him on my office wall.

letswastemoney
10-08-2014, 01:58 PM
Let's post some videos of his races.

1996 Dubai World Cup.
ER5-uGMCQHo

mlyles1
10-08-2014, 02:05 PM
Got to see him this summer at KY Horse Park. He was very gentle and let my 8 yr old daughter pet him. Funny Cide was a different story.

OntheRail
10-08-2014, 02:16 PM
Have this piece hanging on my wall of Cigar. RIP Cigar... :(

PhantomOnTour
10-08-2014, 02:28 PM
The great Cigar was responsible for creating a lot of racing fans. I have a framed photo of him on my office wall.
I was a racing fan as long as I can remember, but it's Cigar (and Alphabet Soup) who got me into the game full time.

During college I played a bit and even nailed Unbridled in the Derby.
That win almost derailed my education as I had pipe dreams like we all do.
Alas, I made the choice to finish school, and Cigar came along a few yrs later.
Began to follow his winning streak, and played the undercards of most of his races. The inaugural Dubai World Cup had me captivated, and by that time I was into the game big time.
Once he lost, I was ready to bet against him (on the advice of an older sharp player)...that opportunity came along in the Classic at Woodbine, where some silly system of mine came up with Alphabet Soup...and the rest is history.
After that initial big score I was in it for a lifetime....thx in large part to the great Cigar.

iceknight
10-08-2014, 02:29 PM
Here is the Massachusetts Handicap - 15th straight win.. nice call.

UzqUJqQKpDY

KirisClown
10-08-2014, 02:57 PM
Holy Bull didn't even deserve to be in the same shedrow as him.

One of the most blatantly asinine comments to ever appear on PaceAdvantage.

rubicon55
10-08-2014, 03:00 PM
Nice article in AP
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a37e4cb398b74af6935f8001e5328940/2-time-horse-year-cigar-dies-after-surgery

Delta Cone
10-08-2014, 03:08 PM
I was lucky enough to see Cigar up close in the paddock at Arlington Park.

I'm not an expert on equine body language, but he had a charisma to him that was palpable. Every inch of him oozed confidence, intelligence and class.

Truly the greatest horse I've ever seen in person.

What a shame that he was infertile...it would have been fascinating to see how his offspring performed.

RIP to a great champion.

KirisClown
10-08-2014, 03:08 PM
I think he ended up getting overconfident with Cigar. If you look at his ride in the Hollywood Gold Cup, or the Breeders' Cup Classic, it's basically the same ride. Close to the pace, going very wide, losing ground. He rode the horse like he was under the assumption that the horse was always much the best and that he didn't have to save ground or monitor the pace. It eventually burned him.

Both Bailey and Mott came to the conclusion that front running Siphon was the only serious threat to beat Cigar in that Pacific Classic.. on paper they were spot on. Siphon had just defeated Cigars heir-apparent at the time Geri in the Hollywood Gold Cup. They weren't about to let Siphon get away on the lead again. The fear of Siphon is what ultimately beat Cigar that day.

Bailey spoke about this not too long ago in an interview.

GameTheory
10-08-2014, 03:19 PM
I was lucky enough to see Cigar up close in the paddock at Arlington Park.

I'm not an expert on equine body language, but he had a charisma to him that was palpable. Every inch of him oozed confidence, intelligence and class.

Truly the greatest horse I've ever seen in person.Yeah, same here -- saw him a couple of times in SoCal before he was a big deal (turf races with P Val on him!). Just an impressive animal, up close in the paddock you could tell you were dealing with a force of nature.

dilanesp
10-08-2014, 03:33 PM
On a side note, it's rather ironic that 8 years later Bailey's questionable ride on Eddington to induce Stewart Elliott to move prematurely aboard Smarty Jones, cost racing fans another chance to witness history in the Belmont Stakes.....Two chances at history, Bailey involved on both sides of the coin.

You know, I've watched the 2004 Belmont all sorts of times, and I've also looked at Birdstone's post-Belmont record.

I don't for the life of me understand why anyone thinks that Smarty Jones was the best horse in that race. He was given every chance to win, and got beat by a clearly better horse.

Smarty Jones had the same career as many theretofore undefeated horses-- he stayed unbeaten until he ran into a better horse. Stop blaming Elliott.

dilanesp
10-08-2014, 03:38 PM
One of the most blatantly asinine comments to ever appear on PaceAdvantage.

You are talking about a horse who won 16 in a row. Did HB ever do anything close to that?

He carried 130 pounds twice and won. Did HB ever do anything close to that?

He won in California, Maryland, Illinois, Massachusetts, and Dubai, in addition to New York and Florida. Did HB ever do anything close to that?

He won the Breeders' Cup Classic and the Dubai World Cup, two of the biggest races in the world. What did HB do when he ran in the biggest race in his career? Stiff.

He won several 1 1/4 mile races against open handicap competition. HB won one, against three year olds, and barely.

He had a great career that included 2 1/2 excellent racing seasons in open competition. HB had 1 excellent season, and half of it was running against 3 year olds.

Holy Bull was just a good horse. Cigar had one of the greatest careers in American racing history.

dilanesp
10-08-2014, 03:40 PM
Both Bailey and Mott came to the conclusion that front running Siphon was the only serious threat to beat Cigar in that Pacific Classic.. on paper they were spot on. Siphon had just defeated Cigars heir-apparent at the time Geri in the Hollywood Gold Cup. They weren't about to let Siphon get away on the lead again. The fear of Siphon is what ultimately beat Cigar that day.

Bailey spoke about this not too long ago in an interview.

I think one should be careful about reading too much into post-mortems about rides. Whenever a top horse gets beat, there's always an excuse.

As I said, there was nothing different or special about the Pacific Classic ride. Watch the 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup and BC Classic. It's basically the same ride. Stay outside, close to the pace.

It's like Mike Smith blaming himself for Zenyatta's loss. He rode her exactly the same way in all of her wins. If the ride was bad in the loss, it was also bad in all the wins.

In Cigar's case, I think Bailey probably WAS giving up 3 or 4 lengths in many of the wins. He just rode that horse with way too much overconfidence.

Fager Fan
10-08-2014, 04:08 PM
You know, I've watched the 2004 Belmont all sorts of times, and I've also looked at Birdstone's post-Belmont record.

I don't for the life of me understand why anyone thinks that Smarty Jones was the best horse in that race. He was given every chance to win, and got beat by a clearly better horse.

Smarty Jones had the same career as many theretofore undefeated horses-- he stayed unbeaten until he ran into a better horse. Stop blaming Elliott.

A better horse? lol.

I agree about not blaming Elliott. Instead I blame the two jocks, particularly Bailey, who were so hell-bent at not seeing another jockey take the triple crown that they sacrificed their own horse.

Fager Fan
10-08-2014, 04:13 PM
You are talking about a horse who won 16 in a row. Did HB ever do anything close to that?

He carried 130 pounds twice and won. Did HB ever do anything close to that?

He won in California, Maryland, Illinois, Massachusetts, and Dubai, in addition to New York and Florida. Did HB ever do anything close to that?

He won the Breeders' Cup Classic and the Dubai World Cup, two of the biggest races in the world. What did HB do when he ran in the biggest race in his career? Stiff.

He won several 1 1/4 mile races against open handicap competition. HB won one, against three year olds, and barely.

He had a great career that included 2 1/2 excellent racing seasons in open competition. HB had 1 excellent season, and half of it was running against 3 year olds.

Holy Bull was just a good horse. Cigar had one of the greatest careers in American racing history.

Holy Bull was more than a good horse. Fine if you want to say Cigar was better since he was, but given that Holy Bull was one of a handful who may've been able to beat him on both their best days, it was sort of an inane comment on your part.

ReplayRandall
10-08-2014, 04:41 PM
You know, I've watched the 2004 Belmont all sorts of times, and I've also looked at Birdstone's post-Belmont record.

I don't for the life of me understand why anyone thinks that Smarty Jones was the best horse in that race. He was given every chance to win, and got beat by a clearly better horse.

Smarty Jones had the same career as many theretofore undefeated horses-- he stayed unbeaten until he ran into a better horse. Stop blaming Elliott.

You are mistaken. My post referred to the "blame" being assigned to Jerry Bailey in both instances.......

classhandicapper
10-08-2014, 04:42 PM
I think one should be careful about reading too much into post-mortems about rides. Whenever a top horse gets beat, there's always an excuse.

As I said, there was nothing different or special about the Pacific Classic ride. Watch the 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup and BC Classic. It's basically the same ride. Stay outside, close to the pace.

It's like Mike Smith blaming himself for Zenyatta's loss. He rode her exactly the same way in all of her wins. If the ride was bad in the loss, it was also bad in all the wins.

In Cigar's case, I think Bailey probably WAS giving up 3 or 4 lengths in many of the wins. He just rode that horse with way too much overconfidence.

The pace was pretty hot in the Pacific Classic and he moved early. That was the difference.

No disrespect to Smith, but I think even he would admit he gave Zenyatta a few bad rides (that she overcame). ;)

Her last race has been debated to death. I don't it was his fault she got squeezed a little at the start and reacted poorly to the kickback. She started climbing for a few strides which caused her drop even further back than usual until she settled back down. He was brilliant after that. He pushed her back into it by the first turn without panicking and using her too much and then saved some ground without being on the dead rail for too long.

ronsmac
10-08-2014, 06:45 PM
Holy Bull was more than a good horse. Fine if you want to say Cigar was better since he was, but given that Holy Bull was one of a handful who may've been able to beat him on both their best days, it was sort of an inane comment on your part.Both were very good,but Holy Bull was better.

Stillriledup
10-08-2014, 06:50 PM
This is a thread to honor Cigar and his legacy and memory, why are people arguing who was better?

Cmon now.

racko
10-08-2014, 06:55 PM
Stillrilledup, what race was that from that Tom dirkin called the unconquerable, invincible, unbeatable, Cigar?

Stillriledup
10-08-2014, 06:57 PM
Stillrilledup, what race was that from that Tom dirkin called the unconquerable, invincible, unbeatable, Cigar?

It was the 1995 BC Classic at Belmont.

horses4courses
10-08-2014, 06:58 PM
What a horse.
What a race call here, too.

ydT4SRxZT1Y

mlyles1
10-08-2014, 08:27 PM
Cigar at KY Horse Park in May of this year.

Bullet Plane
10-08-2014, 08:42 PM
Cigar ...

My favorite horse of all time.

I fell in love with the sport watching the incredible Cigar!

RacingFan1992
10-08-2014, 08:45 PM
This may sound odd but does anyone know when the service will be?

nijinski
10-08-2014, 08:51 PM
For what it's worth both Cigar and Holy Bull were great champions and were
often subjects of local TV news as part of their sportscast . Not
the time to compare these two giants they both had so many loyal fans,
both made a huge impact on the sport !

A few months ago I remember Cigar was battling cellulitis , many concerns then and still hearing the news of his death is very sad !
He lived a long , good life , very much adored and will be very missed .
.RIP Cigar ! :(

DJofSD
10-08-2014, 08:54 PM
This may sound odd but does anyone know when the service will be?
Using great restraint, I will not use that great straight line to crack a joke in bad taste.

Tom? ;)

nijinski
10-08-2014, 09:09 PM
Barbara Livingston has wonderful photos and a written tribute to him on'
her facebook page i.

gheuks
10-08-2014, 09:30 PM
Great tribute to a great athlete

PaceAdvantage
10-09-2014, 12:45 AM
The thing is, at the time nobody really knew how good Cigar was. He was a much better horse than Holy Bull-- the 16 race winning streak, shipping all over the country and the world, taking on every good horse in training, winning the BC Classic, carrying 130 pounds.

He's the best horse in the 1990's, and Holy Bull didn't even deserve to be in the same shedrow as him.Not the thread for this, but I couldn't disagree with you more. That last statement is ridiculous.

PaceAdvantage
10-09-2014, 12:49 AM
I put up a little tribute to Cigar on the home page, plus 8 video highlights from his career (scroll down a bit...hat tip for videos to fellow HB fan KirisClown), which includes an interview with Jerry Bailey, conducted by Gary Stevens, that many of you have probably already seen....

You can find it here: http://www.paceadvantage.com

PaceAdvantage
10-09-2014, 12:56 AM
Cigar lifetime PPs: https://www1.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf

PhantomOnTour
10-09-2014, 12:57 AM
Cigar full PPs: https://www1.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf
Wow...16 straight races with a Beyer fig of 111 or higher...19 straight Beyers over 100.

Horses like that sadly seem like a thing of the past.
Heck, Game On Dude (who is considered a modern day warrior) ran about the same number of races but never threw those consistent high figs, and pales in comparison.

nijinski
10-09-2014, 01:10 AM
I put up a little tribute to Cigar on the home page, plus 8 video highlights from his career (scroll down a bit...hat tip for videos to fellow HB fan KirisClown), which includes an interview with Jerry Bailey, conducted by Gary Stevens, that many of you have probably already seen....

You can find it here: http://www.paceadvantage.com

I've seen the Stevens , Bailey interview . Worth a watch .

highnote
10-09-2014, 01:18 AM
Daily Racing Form prints the workouts for almost every horse at every track. There were be hundreds of horses listed on a page.

I remember seeing a workout for Cigar buried amongst all the other workouts. DRF listed his workout using the name "The Mighty Cigar".

I wish I would have saved that edition. I suppose it can still be purchased. It would be a nice collectible.

nijinski
10-09-2014, 01:25 AM
[QUOTE=PhantomOnTour]Wow...16 straight races with a Beyer fig of 111 or higher...19 straight Beyers over 100.

Horses like that sadly seem like a thing of the past.
Heck, Game On Dude (who is considered a modern day warrior) ran about the same number of races but never threw those consistent high figs, and pales in comparison.[/Q

So true and also to see the team together for so long .
Cigar - Mott - Bailey , The Dream Team .

PhantomOnTour
10-09-2014, 01:47 AM
Google the term "Mott and Bailey"...it's an actual thing.

Stillriledup
10-09-2014, 02:41 AM
He died exactly 20 years to the day of his last loss before the streak started.

the little guy
10-09-2014, 03:05 PM
Holy Bull was just a good horse.

The official internet barometer.

Cigar deserves better.

Rex Phinney
10-09-2014, 03:44 PM
Cigar lifetime PPs: https://www1.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf

I love me some Bill Mott for sure, but running him 11 times in a row on turf during which time he only won 1 race and then seeing what he did on the dirt kind of makes you wonder just how much these trainers know and how much they might be guessing. LOL

Cigar was a few years before my time in racing started, but from what I've learned since he amounts to the final horse of that kind, very unlikely we see a horse run that good for that long again.

Delta Cone
10-09-2014, 04:40 PM
I love me some Bill Mott for sure, but running him 11 times in a row on turf during which time he only won 1 race and then seeing what he did on the dirt kind of makes you wonder just how much these trainers know and how much they might be guessing. LOL

Look more carefully at the PPs. With Mott as a trainer, Cigar ran on the turf only four times. The other turf races were when Cigar was under the care of Alex Hassinger.

Also keep in mind that Cigar's sire was Palace Music, a multiple stakes winner on TURF who ran second in the Breeders' Cup Mile. Its not too hard to understand why they thought Cigar would take to the turf.

OntheRail
10-09-2014, 05:45 PM
I know he showed allot of heart on the track but I wonder if Cigar was a recipient of large heart like Secretariats?

nijinski
10-09-2014, 06:18 PM
Google the term "Mott and Bailey"...it's an actual thing.

LOL had no idea ,very cool .

dilanesp
10-09-2014, 06:32 PM
The official internet barometer.

Cigar deserves better.

You know, I set out the records upthread. So far, HB fans have not provided any evidence of their horse's supposed superiority to Cigar.

Cigar has one of the great resumes in history. HB does not. Sorry if you liked HB, but this is like comparing Pete Maravich to Michael Jordan

dilanesp
10-09-2014, 06:35 PM
I know he showed allot of heart on the track but I wonder if Cigar was a recipient of large heart like Secretariats?

Bear in mind that's a bit of a tall tale. Secretariat's heart was 14 pounds in an x-ray when he was running. Suddenly it grew to 22 in his autopsy, but the examiner did nothing to document it. (When Phar Lap was discovered to have a large heart in his autopsy, they took pictures and displayed the heart.)

Secretariat did have a large heart, but he didn't have as large a heart as William Nack said he did.

tucker6
10-09-2014, 06:38 PM
Bear in mind that's a bit of a tall tale. Secretariat's heart was 14 pounds in an x-ray when he was running. Suddenly it grew to 22 in his autopsy, but the examiner did nothing to document it. (When Phar Lap was discovered to have a large heart in his autopsy, they took pictures and displayed the heart.)

Secretariat did have a large heart, but he didn't have as large a heart as William Nack said he did.
where is this x-ray perchance? Never heard of it before your post even though I've studied the issue extensively. Please share.

tucker6
10-09-2014, 06:40 PM
I know he showed allot of heart on the track but I wonder if Cigar was a recipient of large heart like Secretariats?
cigar's broodmare sire is Seattle Slew, who inherited his large heart via War Admiral. He likely had a large heart. Hopefully they check it out.

nijinski
10-09-2014, 07:05 PM
This may sound odd but does anyone know when the service will be?

You can sign his banner

From KHP
Our KHP family appreciates all of the nice comments and condolence wishes from Cigar’s wonderful fans and all of our friends out there. For those of you who will be visiting the park in the coming weeks to visit Cigar’s grave and leave flowers or cards, please be sure to sign his banner or leave a brief comment. The banner will become a permanent part of the Cigar collection in the park’s International Museum of the Horse in the future.

KirisClown
10-09-2014, 07:50 PM
So far, HB fans have not provided any evidence of their horse's supposed superiority to Cigar


You chose this thread to needlessly say that Holy Bull, widely regarded as more than just a "good horse." Didn't deserve to even be in the same shedrow as Cigar..

A thread designed to celebrate Cigar you chose to besmirch Holy Bull.. for reasons that only you yourself know.. Prior to your comments, no one in this discussion said Holy Bull was superior to Cigar or even made a comparison of the two.

The Little Guy is right.. Cigar deserves better than this.

You'll twist things.. so it's better off to just let this inane discussion end here.

Rex Phinney
10-09-2014, 08:18 PM
Look more carefully at the PPs. With Mott as a trainer, Cigar ran on the turf only four times. The other turf races were when Cigar was under the care of Alex Hassinger.

Also keep in mind that Cigar's sire was Palace Music, a multiple stakes winner on TURF who ran second in the Breeders' Cup Mile. Its not too hard to understand why they thought Cigar would take to the turf.

You know what I did forget that. I guess they just thought the pedigree was such that they should try grass for that long. Surely a horse on Dirt with that type of record might head to grass sooner than 11 races in.

I was thinking how trainers and horsemen claim to see things in horses stride or action, the way they move over a surface. Someone seems to have missed it with him early on.

the little guy
10-09-2014, 08:55 PM
On my final At the Post Live this past Summer, Jerry Bailey and Bill Mott joined me and we discussed Cigar quite a bit. Here is a link to a page with the podcast if anyone is interested....


http://1045theteam.com/andy-serling-at-the-post-live-finale-podcast/


It's the 2nd segment.

nijinski
10-09-2014, 09:16 PM
On my final At the Post Live this past Summer, Jerry Bailey and Bill Mott joined me and we discussed Cigar quite a bit. Here is a link to a page with the podcast if anyone is interested....


http://1045theteam.com/andy-serling-at-the-post-live-finale-podcast/


It's the 2nd segment.

Fantastic interview ! Thanks TLG .

taxicab
10-10-2014, 12:18 AM
The one thing I'll always remember about Cigar is how easy he made it look.
He just skated in the stretch.

turninforhome10
10-10-2014, 09:33 AM
I remember betting him on the grass in NY and then when they switched him dirt, I was watching that day and said to myself "Mott is grabbing at straws". Well, how wrong I was. He was the big horse of my generation and a memoir of the happiest days in my handicapping career. I met the big horse in KY and was just blown away at the class he exuded. There is no need to compare him to any other horse, he was the man for a brief moment in the history of our great sport. IMHO he was the last of the old guard. RIP

Stillriledup
10-10-2014, 01:52 PM
I remember betting him on the grass in NY and then when they switched him dirt, I was watching that day and said to myself "Mott is grabbing at straws". Well, how wrong I was. He was the big horse of my generation and a memoir of the happiest days in my handicapping career. I met the big horse in KY and was just blown away at the class he exuded. There is no need to compare him to any other horse, he was the man for a brief moment in the history of our great sport. IMHO he was the last of the old guard. RIP

You were right, at the time, about the straw grab. They reached for straws and grabbed an entire boxful.

Redbullsnation
10-12-2014, 02:25 PM
Damn!! No wonder the NYRA YouTube channel went Cigar-crazy

GMB@BP
10-12-2014, 03:23 PM
Stillrilledup, what race was that from that Tom dirkin called the unconquerable, invincible, unbeatable, Cigar?


When someone says something that most consider really dumb its going to generate a response.

racko
10-12-2014, 05:52 PM
gmb@bp he was that day and for many more to come

BettinBilly
10-12-2014, 08:03 PM
On my final At the Post Live this past Summer, Jerry Bailey and Bill Mott joined me and we discussed Cigar quite a bit. Here is a link to a page with the podcast if anyone is interested....


http://1045theteam.com/andy-serling-at-the-post-live-finale-podcast/


It's the 2nd segment.

Glad I saw this. Thanks. Good interview.

CryingForTheHorses
10-15-2014, 07:04 PM
I may have been there that day. Is it the one where the great Holy Bull broke down? Cigar won, but the luster of that day was greatly tarnished by the breakdown of Holy Bull...he was an all time great also.

I was at GP that day also,Thats the only time I ever saw Cigar run..Thankyou PA for the videos of him Such a great horse and such a great loss..RIP Cigar

dilanesp
10-16-2014, 10:33 PM
You chose this thread to needlessly say that Holy Bull, widely regarded as more than just a "good horse." Didn't deserve to even be in the same shedrow as Cigar..

A thread designed to celebrate Cigar you chose to besmirch Holy Bull.. for reasons that only you yourself know.. Prior to your comments, no one in this discussion said Holy Bull was superior to Cigar or even made a comparison of the two.

The Little Guy is right.. Cigar deserves better than this.

You'll twist things.. so it's better off to just let this inane discussion end here.

I wasn't the person who brought up Holy Bull. I simply said he didn't rate with Cigar, in response tp someone else's post.

He didn't. And it pisses me off that a clearly inferior horse gets compared to an all time great just because he broke down in one of the all time great's races.

PS: if somehow the 16 race streak isn't enough to convince you of this, compare how Cigar crushed Concern to how HB beat him by a nose. I mean, this is really obvious.

ReplayRandall
10-16-2014, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by KirisClown

You chose this thread to needlessly say that
Holy Bull, widely regarded as more than just a "good horse." Didn't deserve to
even be in the same shedrow as Cigar..

A thread designed to celebrate
Cigar you chose to besmirch Holy Bull.. for reasons that only you yourself
know.. Prior to your comments, no one in this discussion said Holy Bull was
superior to Cigar or even made a comparison of the two.

The Little
Guy is right.. Cigar deserves better than this.

You'll twist things..
so it's better off to just let this inane discussion end here.


I wasn't the person who brought up Holy Bull. I simply said he didn't rate with Cigar, in response tp someone else's post.

He didn't. And it pisses me off that a clearly inferior horse gets compared to an all time great just because he broke down in one of the all time great's races.

PS: if somehow the 16 race streak isn't enough to convince you of this, compare how Cigar crushed Concern to how HB beat him by a nose. I mean, this is really obvious.


Just had to have the last word SEVEN DAYS later?!! Beyond asinine......

KirisClown
10-17-2014, 10:02 AM
I wasn't the person who brought up Holy Bull. I simply said he didn't rate with Cigar, in response tp someone else's post.

He didn't. And it pisses me off that a clearly inferior horse gets compared to an all time great just because he broke down in one of the all time great's races.

PS: if somehow the 16 race streak isn't enough to convince you of this, compare how Cigar crushed Concern to how HB beat him by a nose. I mean, this is really obvious.

As as I said, you twist things, in this case to the point where they make no sense..

The last paragraph of what you wrote is just plain silly. Since we can remove all logic and now just pull absurd "arguments" from our ass.. How about Unaccounted For? "Crushed" by Holy Bull, yet only beaten a mere length in the Jockey Club Gold Cup by Cigar. He even once defeated Cigar.

I won't reply in this thread again, but I'll end by saying I was a fan of both horses, both were exceptionally talented. Neither should be bashed to build the other up.