Dutrow not juicing! Little Andy is a Clown!

[DeoVolente]

I thknk most people don't actually read a thing about drugs oryou have a reading comprehension problem, or are stubborn assholes who refuse to see the real world instead of his/her imagined one, Are horseplayers the most paranoid people ever born, or are you just plain stupid?


"Juiced up" means given medication to make you run faster, right?


Well guess what? Dutrow has never been caught "jucing up" any horses.


Would YOU run faster if you'd had a shot of novacaine?

Well THAT is basically the same thing as mepivacaine - the ending -acaine would've given you a clue if you won't too busy being a sore loser to manage to use your brain.

Do you know what mepivacaine is given to horses for? For one, dental work, just like novacaine in humans. For another, some horses have sensitive feet and mepivacaine is used when they are reshod.

That's right - WHEN THEY CHANGE TO YOUR PRECIOUS MUD CAULKS RIGHT BEFORE THE RACE.

What likely happened was the horse switched to mud caulks and was accidently given too much. Or something about his current personal physiology caused the drug not to leave the system as quickly as it normally would.

I recognize the name Farmer Jake, though I can't place him at the moment, but I suspect he's up there on the class ladder. I cannot believe that Dutrow would risk a valuable horse by purposely running him when he could not feel where he was putting one or more of his feet!

So why is it illegal? Because there are low class horse abusing idiots out there who would run cheap claimers with quarter cracks with numb feet. Why is Dutrow suspended? Because of the way the legal system works. If he comes in with the farrier and says the horse changed to caulks and got too big a dose and they say "OK, be more careful next time" then every asshole who wants to run a numb cheap claimer can come in and say the same thing - the precedent would be set.

As to this Starship Smokester horse, Klesaris trains that horse since coming to NY. I can't find anything about this horse and Dutrow. When in CA, the horse was trained by Rollins. I also can't find any referenses of this horse and a drug case.


If you want to sound like a real ass or worse yet Little Andy at Siro's Seminar keep posting these brainless and dazed reamarks. Remember Little Andy is Harvey's buffoon


You folks here are a brain!

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by DeoVolente

"Juiced up" means given medication to make you run faster, right?


Yes and no. As you point out, it can be used to mask pain, which would not enable the horse to run faster than it is normally capable, but faster than it could if it were in pain. So "juice" can be used to get the horse to run -- period -- when it is injured and should not be running at all.

[Figman]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/story/188965p-163494c.html
OR
http://tinyurl.com/2usm3

What's your rant about mepivicaine that is a pain killer. This Dutrow story is about a totally different drug....a breathing drug. And it seems that not too long ago he was fined for another drug infraction, I think it was too much furosemide. Maybe he is just trying to help his horses but why does he keep getting in trouble?

[PaceAdvantage]

DeoVolente, to whom are you aiming your post? Are you responding to some other post that I am not aware? And who is little Andy? Andy Serling?

I think I may have missed something in this thread!! :eek:

[BetHorses!]

They should test his horses for adrenalin.

Deovolente, How would you run shot up with adrenalin??

[The Hawk]

I think we've just seen how DeoVolente is when shot up on adrenaline...

[the little guy]

I believe I have been done a disservice by the author of this thread. While I take no issue with him referring to me as a buffoon, I think to suggest that I am Harvey Pack's buffoon is patently unfair. I believe that my merits stand up well enough on their own.

That being said, it heartens me to know that not only would anyone waste their time and listen to me, but that I have annoyed them so much that they reference me over 8 months after I have done seminars of any kind. I figure I must be doing something right.

As for defending Dutrow, well your sad defense speaks for itself. He has received numerous drug positives, as the informed posters of this sight know, and is on the cusp of serving at least 45 days, if not more. More power to the racing jurisdictions that try to rid this great game of the scourge of drugs. While it seems like a losing battle, at least someone's trying.

Anyhow, best of luck. And I am who I purport to be.

[cj]

Welcome aboard Andy. I hope you stick around, most of the people here are pretty good. As you see, noone took this guy serious.

If you want to see a true medcine man, check out the "Who is THIS guy?" thread. I'll never be convinced a guy like this is doing it with good old horsemanship!

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm just trying to understand something here for a minute. This guy DeoVolente is posting about something you (the little guy) said 8 months ago? Talk about a delayed reaction!!

[the little guy]

Well, I joke about Dutrow at the seminars, which are in August in Saratoga. That's pretty much the only place I appear. I also never flatly accuse him of using drugs, as I have no proof unless he comes up with a positive. What I usually say is that he seems to have a magic wand that makes his horses performances unreliable.

This must have really been on his mind to include it in the headline of his post. I can almost appreciate his obtuse reference.

[JPinMaryland]

SOme of these threads would be a lot clearer w/ footnotes. Maybe endnotes as well, but I HATE end notes, cant's stand having to flip to the back of the book every time.

[DeoVolente]

Let me say that Little Andy is my favorite guest at the Siro's Seminar. But this is easy for me to say since I'm not Dutrow who Andy has unfairly critized.

Andy you convey he uses drugs all the time, but he has NEVER had a
positive for any substance other than those that have a legitimate
medical use at training times. His horses are in the money at least
50% of the time, so that means at least 50% of his horses are
tested. If he was using something illegal they would have found it
by now. This guy *might* be a high school graduate at best. Are
you really going to be so ignorant as to try to tell me that you think
he can manage to get one over time after time after time on a
bunch of PhD scientists equiped with the most modern testing
facilities? Oh please spare me Andy!!

Blood doping was a regular occurance, you had us beleive
and then when they started testing for EPO in NY they had ONE
occurance. Out of thousands and thousands of tests only ONE
horse has ever tested positive in the entire state - and it was at
Finger Lakes. And it definitely wasn't trained by Dutrow!

Your still my favorite Andy but take it easy on Dutrow and don't rag on Lee Tomlinson's numbers. The DRF may get testy and not allow you back since Lee's work is in their paper. They do put on the show and I wouldn't want to miss you next August.

[Figman]

Sorry buddy, you've got your facts wrong. There has never been an EPO positive test for a thoroughbred that was stabled at or raced at Finger Lakes since the New York EPO program began last November. The multiple EPO post race positives in New York have all been in the harness industry so far. By the way, NY lets the public know what horses are currently positive for EPO at this site:
www.racing.state.ny.us

[the little guy]

While I sincerely appreciate you saying I'm your favorite guest, I can only wonder what the person who writes a thread, basically out of the blue, called Little Andy is a clown, thinks of the other guests.

Anyhow, I really don't want to get into a fight about the disgraceful prevalence of illegal and undetectable medications spoiling the game that so many of us love. As you know, it is my opinion that while it is noble that NY State started EPO testing, the vets are already two or three steps ahead of the tests. The only way, it seems, that anyone will ever be caught is if there is extensive freezing of samples that can be tested years down the road as more tests are created for drugs that at this point we don't even know exist.

Obviously I have many thoughts on this issue, but I would really prefer this doesn't degenerate into a " I say, You say " fight. We can agree to disagree, and I will certainly take your suggestions to heart when I do seminars in the future.

Thanks again.

[delayjf]

Little Guy,

Welcome to the board. A while back I posted a question that you might be able to answer.

Who was the Fat Man, and what ever happen to him??

[the little guy]

I do know who the Fat Man is, but honestly unless Beyer says it's OK with him, I can't say his name. I don't believe he's been around in many years and may well be dead. I'll ask Beyer, and if he doesn't care, I'll tell you. Sorry, I'm not trying to be a wise guy.

Somebody else suggested that I am " the Kid " in Beyer's books. That is not true. He's much smarter than me. And a few years older.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Dutrow is appealing Jake ruling.

[delayjf]

Little Guy,

His names not important to me, but it would be interesting to hear a few stories of his exploits. If he is still alive an kicking, I wouldn't give his name out either.:D

[the little guy]

The only specific story I know involved a horse named Red Sam at Saratoga in the mid 70s. The horse had run at, I believe, Phili Park ( probably still Keystone at that time ) and Delaware Park. In I believe the first race the rider had been suspended for failing to put forth a proper effort. Both races he finished way back at huge odds. Then, he mysteriously showed up in a NYBred maiden race a Saratoga with, I believe, Mike Venezia. Shockingly, he cruised to victory at a paltry $27 and change. I believe it was " the Kid " who uncovered the horse the night before. I was a teenager back then, and " the Kid " told me he was betting $2 on a horse for me in the first race ( I didn't bet more than a buck or 2 back then ) and would give me the money after we won.

He did.

[DeoVolente]

Andy I ask for a pardon regarding the clown comments. I was out of line and got a little carried away with my viewpoint. I guess I never thought that you would post here and reply to my comments and do it in such a distinguished manner.

I still clash with your views on Dutrow but again my comments about you were infantile and I kick myself for making them.

As for handicapping, I love the way you question everything from the high Beyer to the capability of the trainer. There is too much handicapping 101 at most seminars and your approach is very refreshing.

[the little guy]

Don't give it a second thought.

As someone who can certainly dish it out, I can also take it.

[headhawg]

Deo,

You don't need my approval but way to step up to the plate.

HH

[JustRalph]

Why does this thread sound like an episode of the Soprano's?

[JPinMaryland]

I for one am disappointed; to carry on a proper internet thread one should:

1) never apologize;
2) never admit to any wrong;
3) never budge from initial position taken;
4) continue to post incessantly about the same stuff.

You're letting us down, Deo. Please work on your game.

[DeoVolente]

JP does have a point I'm too getting too soft.

Drugs in racing are much like viruses. As soon as a new one
comes out they find a test for it. The only difference is that new
drugs require much research and testing before they get on the
market and so drugs do not come out anywhere near as often as
viruses do. The chemists say it's actually on the average of 4-5 a
year. And they are aware of the release of drugs onto the market.
They often have worked out a test BEFORE consumers have access
to the drug. The only thing that has given them any grief in recent
years is EPO. Before that youhave to go all the way back to the
70's to find cases of drugs they knew were out there but they
couldn't test for.

Have you noticed a dramatic difference between horse racing prior
to the 80's and horse racing today? Now THAT is something I don't
want to think much more about....

Next I suppose you are going to tell me that trainers and vets are
breaking into pharmaceutical company's and stealing experimental
drugs or something? Or making their own? Give me a break! Vets
are NOT chemists. They haven't got the labs, they haven't got the
ingredients, they haven't got the testing facilities, they haven't got
the time to experiment and create.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Online Horse Racing Magazine has some interesting articles on cheating at gaming.
Anyone have statistics on horses' finishes on the days they are caught on drug charges?

[andicap]

Originally posted by DeoVolente
Andy I ask for a pardon regarding the clown comments. I was out of line and got a little carried away with my viewpoint. I guess I never thought that you would post here and reply to my comments and do it in such a distinguished manner.


Reminds me of the time on Prodigy when I ripped Jerry Bailey for riding the rail in the first race on Sunday (which I lost) after the rail had been dead all day Saturday at Belmont.

So what happens, Bailey himself answers!! (He had never been on the board before and had seen the post because his wife was an occasional lurker.) This was a total shock because we didn't exactly have much of a celebrity cast among our posters (but a lot of good handicappers.)

He was very nice about it, and I ended up apologizing for my tone. It turned out he had not ridden the day before at Belmont.

[JimG]

Andy,

Is the "Kid" somebody who's name we might recognize, or just a lifelong horseplayer?

Jim

PS...Welcome to the board. Enjoyed listening to your comments from Siro's on the web last year.

[DeoVolente]

I don't think it's that there are miracle trainers. I think it's that there
are that many BAD trainers out there. Sometimes switching trainers
to a prosperous barn means a horse is finally getting wormed,
exercised, and fed properly. I'm not kidding. There are a lot of
trainers who leave horses in stalls for 2-3 days, never worm them,
feed them inadequate amounts or the wrong thing, don't give them
proper hoof care, and on and on.

I won't name names you never know who is lurking. I learned my lesson with Little Andy.

[the little guy]

The Kid's a reasonably well known horseplayer, there's a good chance you know who he is. I'm sorry if I seem like kind of a jerk for keeping something so minor a secret. If Beyer doesn't mind, I'll be happy to say who it is. I don't think it's that big a deal.