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mike
01-06-2002, 01:51 AM
HI, I WOULD LIKE TO E-MAIL ANYONE WHO HAS KRAM'S ULTRA-PICK PLUS OR ULTRA-PICK ULTIMATE

mike
01-08-2002, 05:28 AM
IT REALLY AMAZES ME HOW THIS GUY CAN CONTINUE TO SELL PROGRAMS THAT ARE LARELY A SHAM AND WRITTEN IN SUCH A SHODDY MANNER.

WHERE DOES HE FIND THE SUCKERS TO PAY $600 OR 700 DOLLARS FOR THIS JUNK?

NoDayJob
01-08-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by mike
IT REALLY AMAZES ME HOW THIS GUY CAN CONTINUE TO SELL PROGRAMS THAT ARE LARELY A SHAM AND WRITTEN IN SUCH A SHODDY MANNER.

WHERE DOES HE FIND THE SUCKERS TO PAY $600 OR 700 DOLLARS FOR THIS JUNK?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Murry is a master of the con. Years ago I bought a library from a lady that had his $5k trifecta program. I paid $300 for the whole shooting match. She paid $5k for that one program. It is pure garbage.

He tells everybody that his son is the programmer just like he tells everybody he was a trainer. In his best year as a trainer his horses raked in less than $100k. If his handicapping skills are as good as his training and programming skills it beats me how he ever won those contests he brags about. CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!

Lefty
01-08-2002, 12:34 PM
Gordon Jones says Kram uses multiple entries to win the contests and won one by mistake. He sent his son to put in ticket and son comes back with wrong horse and Kram cusses him out because no time to change. Wrong play wins at $60+ and Kram advertises his skills win it.

sq764
01-08-2002, 05:50 PM
Who in God's name would pay $5,000 for software? That is just very sad that people would do that. When I first started handicapping, I was so enthralled with software, wanted to see everything I could. But I made it a point to test everything first. I still am that way, and I think that if the seller does not even offer a trial period on his software, then its not worth the time. That tells me that they don't have much confidence in their software.

Just my opinion of course..

Scott

Tom
01-08-2002, 07:04 PM
This is the age old question, like which came firs, the chicken or the egg. I once order cordon bleau and an omlet at the same time,but they came on the same plate, so no answer there.
~G!~

But anyways, if I had $5000 I wouldn't have to play the horses.
Or is it, If I didn't play the horses, I would have $5000???
This game is deep!

Tom

Lefty
01-09-2002, 12:39 PM
If I remember Krams' DRF ads correctly he advertises at $5000 then makes a special at $169 or something of that sort.
Still too much. I traded for one back in old Dos days and while I can't tell you who has the best prm or prms I can say Kram has the worst.

Richard
01-10-2002, 09:11 PM
I just cant help but wonder if Mr. Kram has viewed this messsage board.It would be most interesting to see if he might log-in and defend himself.No one is keeping him from doing so.

PaceAdvantage
01-10-2002, 09:24 PM
I've never used the program, or seen the program, but I find it very interesting that the people coming on here and trashing the man and his programs haven't provided one single example of why they think his stuff is more worthless then anything else that's out there.....

You'd think that such condemnation would prompt those who hate to want to tell why they hate...I know *I* would....


==PA

:eek:

Lefty
01-11-2002, 08:57 PM
PA, been a long time since I looked at Kram's prgm but if memory serves you had to go through GW-Basic just to run the thing and next it came up with reasons to play just about every horse in the race; nothing solid to sink your teeth into.
Also, an independant computer tester tested it for PRN and said no way Kram used his pgm to win any contests.
Let's put this way, anybody like the prgms he puts out?

PaceAdvantage
01-11-2002, 09:13 PM
Simply asking if anyone likes or hates the program does little for me. The example you provided (going through GW-basic) is what I was looking for from someone jumping to tell me why a program isn't any good. You provided a concrete (I assume) example of why you didn't like his program.

Now, if others would come on here and provide concrete examples as to why they don't like a particular piece of software, I'd think we'd all be better off...instead of just shooting off generalities like "It sucks" or "It's the worst...."


==PA

Tom
01-12-2002, 12:08 AM
PA,
Good point. I would suggest that more often than not, it is not the program that sucks but rather the handicapping skills of the
person failing to win with it.
I have used a lot of different programs and won wtih them, yet others have done nothing but complain about them. Did I get d differnet version than they did?
HSH and HTR have loyal followings, yet they are the subject of ridicule over at Trash 'n Cash.
It would benifit everyone if more descriptive examples of how the program runs and what the output is like.
Fortune Hunter gets a lot of grief over HDM, but he backs it up with performance statistics. It was this that got me interested - I found some areas where it looked promising, tried it out, and am very happy using the sheets. You occasionally post a print out of your software - I can see what it does and I don't need anyone's opinions.

Tom:p :p :p :p (love these guys!)

ranchwest
01-12-2002, 12:39 AM
Over fifteen years ago, I wrote a program on a TI-99/4A and gave it to a friend of mine. He kept asking what the numbers meant and I kept trying to tell him that I was still trying to figure it out myself. It was mph compartmentalized by points of call, which would include what we today call turn time except it was expressed in MPH. I didn't know what it was called or what it was for at the time. Had I known, my friend might have thought it was really good software. As it was, he just always had questions for which I didn't have a good answer. I just always told him it was an aid, not something to pick winners.

I sometimes got value out of the numbers myself, but I didn't have a full understanding of how to use them, due in part to the fact that I didn't have a database to analyze the numbers in various situations and in other than a single horse context.

So, PA, you are right. We need to know the specific flaws in products.

NoDayJob
01-13-2002, 12:15 AM
PA if you have the time and the money my suggestion is you buy it, try it and then tell us what you think about it and/or them. I frankly have better things to do with my time then testing software. I have yet to see any commerically produced software that will win in the long run. If you tell me that no two people use the software in the same way I am going to puke. If judgement is necessary then a racing form, pencil and paper are all you need to handicap the horses. I did it for years long before computers were available. -NDJ

PaceAdvantage
01-13-2002, 12:56 AM
I think you missed my point NDJ. I was simply requesting that those who come on here and state that so-and-so's software "sucks"....please tell me WHY it sucks....not simply that it sucks.

You stated that Krams software was pure garbage. That tells me nothing. I am someone who has never seen his software. Tell me why it sucked. What was it based on?? How poorly did it perform? How hard was it to install and use?? Get my drift? YOU were the one who stated you used it and it was garbage, not me. I'm simply asking for a little more detail.

Your stance on Kram's software as well as others would gain much more credibility with a little bit more in the way of specific details.

Same would go for those who like to pop up on boards and say "I use so-and-so's program and it rocks!!"


==PA

NoDayJob
01-13-2002, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
I think you missed my point NDJ. I was simply requesting that those who come on here and state that so-and-so's software "sucks"....please tell me WHY it sucks....not simply that it sucks.

You stated that Krams software was pure garbage. That tells me nothing. I am someone who has never seen his software. Tell me why it sucked. What was it based on?? How poorly did it perform? How hard was it to install and use?? Get my drift? YOU were the one who stated you used it and it was garbage, not me. I'm simply asking for a little more detail.

Your stance on Kram's software as well as others would gain much more credibility with a little bit more in the way of specific details.

Same would go for those who like to pop up on boards and say "I use so-and-so's program and it rocks!!"


==PA

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PA it has been a number of years since I and a friend tested it so my memory is a bit hazy on the subject. What I do recall is that the two of us working independently of each other tested over 1000 trifectas and we were not close to break even. The number that sticks in my mind was around 18-20% negative ROI. Why do you think I was able to buy it and a library of programs so inexpensively?

A guy named Jim Adkinson wrote a book called "Winners Are Made Not Born" [circa 1980] along with a shoddily written program which I tested extensively after modifying the source code for a friend. It was able to go from a negative 8-10% to a positive 25% without any exotics. My point is, if it is sold commercially, it's not going to make you money unless you are able to make modifications. I just haven't seen any program yet, short of writting your own, that will produce a positive return without modifications. The trouble is nobody's going to give you their source code. Programs now a days are like razors. Give the razor handle/program away and charge for the blades/data.

-NDJ

andicap
01-13-2002, 08:14 AM
Which begs the question: If it had a positive 25% ROI, why did you stop using it?

PaceAdvantage
01-13-2002, 10:31 AM
Andy, Who says he stopped using it?? ;)


Thanks for the follow up NDJ....

anotherdave
01-13-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by NoDayJob

My point is, if it is sold commercially, it's not going to make you money unless you are able to make modifications. I just haven't seen any program yet, short of writting your own, that will produce a positive return without modifications. The trouble is nobody's going to give you their source code. Programs now a days are like razors. Give the razor handle/program away and charge for the blades/data.

-NDJ

Good points. I am not quite adept enough to do my own programming, although I'd love to. I use a commercial program as a tool, but still do the meat of my handicapping myself.

To me, the problem with most computer programs is that they cannot possibly work for all tracks. Some programs may be quite good at Santa Anita, but be poor at Aqueduct or Fair Grounds. It is hard to program the differences between the configurations and, most importantly, biases for each track.

Even different track conditions - look at any track - say Aqueduct this week sloppy track compared to last week fast track. The races run differently. I think that a separate computer program for Aqueduct fast and Aqueduct sloppy is necessary - or at least a "switch" on a program which changes the whole focus of the computer handicapping process to deal with the change in condition - like you might if you were handicapping it by pen and paper.

Until I learn how to deal with those problems, I will continue to use software to do the arithmetic for me and use my brain for the handicapping. Isn't what a lot of programmers try to do - try to get the program to replicate their handicapping process. In my case, based on yesterday's races, that shouldn't take more than 64K of memory!

schacht
01-13-2002, 02:24 PM
your right administrater,i agree totally,i want to know why the program sucks or is good.;)

schacht
01-13-2002, 02:29 PM
anotherdave i have an answer to your problem,i agree races run differently fast versus muddy so in my system i load my models only on fast days and bet only fast tracks.:cool:

NoDayJob
01-13-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by andicap
Which begs the question: If it had a positive 25% ROI, why did you stop using it?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Andicap,

As far as I know my friend is still using the "Jim Adkinson" program in its modified form. I only changed the source code and tested it for him. I use my own software to handicap. -NDJ

David-LV
08-25-2011, 03:08 AM
M.D.KRAM FINISHED 1ST AT TREASURE ISLAND TO WIN JUST UNDER $14,000 AUG.19&20 & IS QUALIFIED FOR NTRA $2 MILLION PURSE JAN.2012!!!

HE MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.


_______
David-LV

QuarterCrack
08-25-2011, 09:53 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a 9-year old thread get bumped before, on any board.

speed
08-25-2011, 10:17 AM
HE MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.


_______
David-LV
[/size][/b][/color][/QUOTE]

Wonder if he signed up for CJ's figures recently? :)
9 year old thread. LMAO

David-LV
08-25-2011, 10:59 AM
Wonder if he signed up for CJ's figures recently? :)
9 year old thread. LMAO

Who knows what he is using, a winner is a winner where I come from.

_________
David-LV

teddy
08-25-2011, 11:22 AM
All software is a loser unless youcan remove about half the takeout with rebates. Then you are lucky if u cna squeeze 3%

Lefty
08-25-2011, 02:53 PM
Gordon Jones says he puts in multiple tickets. A few yrs ago he finished high in a contest because his son marked the wrong horse-then he bragged how his software won the contest.
Anyway, if he makes money, more power to him. Does he still sell the
software? I had a version once in the old Dos days and it gave you several horses. Look out for this one, this may be a sleeper, this one could be dangerous, that sort of thing.

TexasDolly
08-25-2011, 03:18 PM
Is this the Gordon Jones that was out of Sams Town for a long time ?
Thank you,
TD

judd
08-25-2011, 08:25 PM
Is this the Gordon Jones that was out of Sams Town for a long time ?
Thank you,
TD
that is his daughter on hrtv (joanna)

Lefty
08-25-2011, 08:38 PM
Yes, THE Gordon Jones. He is no longer with Sams Town.
The daughter Joanna has been very successful as a commentator.

TexasDolly
08-25-2011, 10:11 PM
Lefty, I didn't realize he had a son since I have never heard him mention him. It is true there was a Professor Jones who had software for sale who Sams Town Gordon wanted to sue but his lawyers didn't think it would work.I don't remember St Gordon having any software as a matter of fact I think he just recently has attempted to bring a computer in to his handicapping. ST Gordon as you probably are well aware was a Professor for a number of years. Al Michaels was one of his students who Gordon says he let out of class early to bet the races they handicapped. They were playing Turf Paradise.
Gordon may be the best low priced horse handicapper around but he just can't refuse the other bets.He went 10 for 10 in a two day final a few years at the Barbary Coast in the finals against David Guttfreind(sp) . He also had one alternate correct and the other finished 2nd,making him 11 for 12 overall.
TD

Lefty
08-25-2011, 11:38 PM
No, no. Gordon was talking about Kram's son. Gordon has no son.
Yes, Gordon was a Journalism Prof.

redeye007
08-26-2011, 12:46 AM
I was at Sams Town recently and noticed in the sports book that there was no longer a reserved seating area for Gordon Jones. I used to see him there all the time and he had a reserved place to sit in the sports book with his name on a placard. guess he's gone.he was always offering players the opportunity to get in on some of his exotic play tickets.

Warren Henry
08-26-2011, 12:53 AM
I don't know if Jim Adkinson's stuff was any good or not, but I made a ton of money off of it. Jim paid top dollar to rent my mailing list one or two hundred names at a time. Paid with CASH.

For what it is worth, my customers didn't have anything nice to say about Kram. However, in fairness, my customers could have bad mouthed me to Kram. Strange business.

Lefty
08-26-2011, 01:11 AM
Gordon and Sams Town have split the blanket.

Flysofree
08-26-2011, 06:35 AM
I bought one of his least expensive programs many years ago. I did not use it long enough to make any determinations. But it was EXTREMELY difficult to do all the typing (input I guess is the word) for what I could stomach. Just very tedious and then..well you get my drift.

TexasDolly
08-26-2011, 07:33 AM
LOL ,I misunderstood your post Lefty. Gordon played with us at Harrahs in the old upstairs race book in the 80's . Later he hooked up with Sams Town.
TD

keenang
08-26-2011, 09:53 AM
I remember him hosting tourneys at the union plaza in the 80's. H e was very good at it, in fact the best.He also picked the upset winner in the ARL million against John Henry. Those were the days.
Geno

Partsnut
08-31-2011, 07:43 AM
PaceAdvantage:
I've never used the program, or seen the program, but I find it very interesting that the people coming on here and trashing the man and his programs haven't provided one single example of why they think his stuff is more worthless then anything else that's out there.....

You'd think that such condemnation would prompt those who hate to want to tell why they hate...I know *I* would....


==PA

images/UBGX/05.gif

==PA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PaceAdvantage makes an excellent point and I respect him for it.
Why knock anyone that possibly can't defend themselves.
If Murray is still around, he has to be in his late 70's to middle 80's.

I used to frequent the Las Vegas Hilton race book when I lived in Las Vegas and occasionally sat next to Murray Kram and his Secretary (possibly his daughter) who assisted him and can tell you first hand that Murray was quite a big bettor. He used and had strong conviction in his own software. I personally saw him cash quite a few large trifecta bets.

I myself never got involved with any of his products but believe some of his stuff might have been decent.

Partsnut
08-31-2011, 07:58 AM
Lefty:
No, no. Gordon was talking about Kram's son. Gordon has no son.
Yes, Gordon was a Journalism Prof.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Jones wrote one of the best books on value betting ,
"Horse Racing Logic"
This is a soft covered book which is out of print and very hard to find.
My copy is for sale for anyone that may want it.

thaskalos
08-31-2011, 01:14 PM
Lefty:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Jones wrote one of the best books on value betting ,
"Horse Racing Logic"
This is a soft covered book which is out of print and very hard to find.
My copy is for sale for anyone that may want it.
It wasn't Gordon Jones who wrote the book "Horse Racing Logic"...

That book was written by an otherwise unknown author by the name of GLENDON JONES.

I have the book too...

Partsnut
08-31-2011, 01:35 PM
thaskalos:
It wasn't Gordon Jones who wrote the book "Horse Racing Logic"...

That book was written by an otherwise unknown author by the name of GLENDON JONES.

I have the book too...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the correction. You're 100% correct.
Sorry for the error.

thaskalos
08-31-2011, 01:41 PM
thaskalos:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the correction. You're 100% correct.
Sorry for the error.
Honest mistake...

And you are right; the book has gotten much acclaim (especially when you consider that it's written by a complete unknown)...and it's hard to find.

Very expensive too, when in fine condition.

One "like new" copy sells for $2,239.51 on Amazon...:)

Partsnut
08-31-2011, 02:48 PM
thaskalos:

Very expensive too, when in fine condition.

One "like new" copy sells for $2,239.51 on Amazon...images/UBGX/E1.gif
-------------------------------------------------------------
I was ready to let it go for $35.00 - $40.00
My copy is in excellent condition but I did highlight a few lines with a yellow marker.
Otherwise it's in great condition.

Hopefully, I will get an offer on it.

I'll check out Amazon.
Thanks for the clue.

Elliott Sidewater
08-31-2011, 03:26 PM
thask, where is the acclaim? I looked on the Amazon web site and it looks like all but one of the 6 reader comments were ghost written by the author himself. I thought I knew this book but I was wrong, didn't recognize the cover. There were 9 copies available starting at $38.30. $2200 + for a handicapping book is probably the second funniest thing I've seen this week, almost as good as the latest episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm.

PS - read your Private Messages

Elliott

Partsnut
08-31-2011, 04:36 PM
Elliott Sidewater:
There were 9 copies available starting at $38.30. $2200 + for a handicapping book is probably the second funniest thing I've seen this week, almost as good as the latest episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My good friend, the late Doug Manley at Post Time Daily put me onto this book many years ago.
He said it was one of the best works on Value betting he had ever read.
Doug was with the Gamblers Book Store at that time and was one of the most versed handicappers I have yet to meet.

It also struck me as odd as opposed to funny, why someone should price this paperback at such a ridiculously high price. The book is great but does not in my opinion warrant or demand such a price.:confused:
I guess there's a sucker born every day.

Lefty
08-31-2011, 04:41 PM
Partsnut, I didn't know Doug had passed. He was a great guy.

When he worked at GBC and one day I walked in and he quipped:

"what are you doing here Chuck? You have more books than we do."

Partsnut
09-01-2011, 06:00 AM
Lefty Partsnut, I didn't know Doug had passed. He was a great guy.

When he worked at GBC and one day I walked in and he quipped:

"what are you doing here Chuck? You have more books than we do."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Chuck,
First Sharon his life partner, wonderful person and great natural handicapper went and sometime later I called Post Time Daily to speak with Doug and was told that he had passed away. I had a video conference with him a few weeks before and he looked great. It really came as a shock.

lsosa54
09-01-2011, 06:40 AM
Honest mistake...

And you are right; the book has gotten much acclaim (especially when you consider that it's written by a complete unknown)...and it's hard to find.

Very expensive too, when in fine condition.

One "like new" copy sells for $2,239.51 on Amazon...:)

Used to have it - bought it for less than $20 years ago - paperback if I remember. I believe Glendon Jones was a pen name for a medical doctor in the Del Mar, CA area if I remember correctly who loved to handicap but I could be off on that.

Pensacola Pete
09-01-2011, 12:52 PM
I bought Kram's lowest level software when he was charging $25 for it. This was about 7 or 8 years ago. It was a pain in the butt to use. It crashed a lot. It was all manual input. The program could make a point for half of the horses in every race. Maybe Kram made money with it, but he must have known something about using it than he didn't tell people.

David-LV
09-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Lefty:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Jones wrote one of the best books on value betting ,
"Horse Racing Logic"
This is a soft covered book which is out of print and very hard to find.
My copy is for sale for anyone that may want it.

Gordon Jones did write a book in his younger days which is still sold at the GBC in Las Vegas.



1.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61hG9Gr72xL._AA160_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Gordon-Jones-win-professional-handicapping/dp/B00071XJHI/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314899738&sr=1-1)
Gordon Jones to win!: The professional method of speed handicapping (http://www.amazon.com/Gordon-Jones-win-professional-handicapping/dp/B00071XJHI/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314899738&sr=1-1) by Gordon Jones (1976)

___________
David-LV

Lefty
09-01-2011, 06:20 PM
Gordon also wrote another book titled Smart Betting.

Partsnut, thanks for the information.
Saddened to hear it.