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TJDave
09-25-2014, 06:15 PM
Many of you may not know that craps, is played differently here. Cards are used to determine the number. Typically, twelve cards, 1-6 (of different suits) are dealt face down and then one of each is turned over to determine the roll. All well and good...same odds.

Now, the casino I frequent has come up with a new wrinkle. Dice are rolled to determine which cards are chosen. Here's how it works:

Six cards 1-6 are dealt, face up, left to right, in boxes which correspond to dies 1-6. Then the dice are rolled to determine which cards are chosen. Say the shooter rolls a come out 4/5. The two cards in the boxes under the 4 & 5 are the point, which may actually be a 4/5 or any other combination. Cards are shuffled and replaced for each roll.

I'm thinking there might be an advantage play here. I can't yet figure out how, though as my head still hurts.

TexasDolly
09-25-2014, 06:50 PM
I would think it would change the odds tremendously. For example you might have to throw a 12 to make your point of 6,or you might have to throw a 6 to make your point of 10. Is odds betting allowed behind the line with normal odds allowed ?
Surely not.
I misread it . I read it as after each point was made the cards were shuffled. But intuitively I would think that a 4 or 10 would be easier to repeat than normal. I need to think about it some more.

TD

TJDave
09-25-2014, 07:11 PM
Is odds betting allowed behind the line with normal odds allowed ?

3-4-5x odds is all you'll get here in CA.

_______
09-25-2014, 11:34 PM
There is no advantage. Other than the mathematical one that has favored the house for centuries.

You should mention the different colored dies associated with the different colored cards.

All this arises from the distinction in California law between games of chance and games of skill and the finding that "stud horse poker" (it's 5 card stud) was a game of skill.

Layer that over the compact that allows Indian gaming for anything that is "legal gam(bl)ing" and you have the ridiculous extra step you witnessed.

It's technically legal though you have to wonder if the loss of respect for the legal system is really worth the ability to roll bones and lose money to the Chumash.

ReplayRandall
09-25-2014, 11:48 PM
There is no advantage. Other than the mathematical one that has favored the house for centuries.

You should mention the different colored dies associated with the different colored cards.

All this arises from the distinction in California law between games of chance and games of skill and the finding that "stud horse poker" (it's 5 card stud) was a game of skill.

Layer that over the compact that allows Indian gaming for anything that is "legal gam(bl)ing" and you have the ridiculous extra step you witnessed.

It's technically legal though you have to wonder if the loss of respect for the legal system is really worth the ability to roll bones and lose money to the Chumash.

Speaking of the Chumash casino, just outside of Solvang, do they still have that insane rule where you can't order cocktails on the main casino floor and must go upstairs to be purchased?

_______
09-27-2014, 05:04 PM
Speaking of the Chumash casino, just outside of Solvang, do they still have that insane rule where you can't order cocktails on the main casino floor and must go upstairs to be purchased?


I have no idea. I was in their poker room probably a decade ago and haven't gone back.

BTW: I meant to say legal gaming in other jurisdictions in California. The actual sentence I posted regarding the Indian Gaming compact makes no sense.

BlueShoe
09-27-2014, 05:31 PM
Craps with cards is not craps, imo, have observed it and had no desire to play. Some time ago, not sure where, did read a piece claiming that a tiny advantage could be gained on the don't side by card counting. If true, any method wiping out the 1.4% house PC would be huge.

In addition to craps, a few joints also play roulette with cards. Once again, bah. :ThmbDown: When I see a single zero wheel with the European en prison rule, then I might play, but even then, the house PC is still 1.35%, and that has wiped out several generations of hopeful players at the famed Monte Carlo casino.

_______
09-27-2014, 06:55 PM
Craps with cards is not craps, imo, have observed it and had no desire to play. Some time ago, not sure where, did read a piece claiming that a tiny advantage could be gained on the don't side by card counting. If true, any method wiping out the 1.4% house PC would be huge.

In addition to craps, a few joints also play roulette with cards. Once again, bah. :ThmbDown: When I see a single zero wheel with the European en prison rule, then I might play, but even then, the house PC is still 1.35%, and that has wiped out several generations of hopeful players at the famed Monte Carlo casino.

What I saw was packets of 6 cards machine shuffled and spit out. Ace through 6 dealt randomly face down onto spots marked 1-6. One blue and one red. The player then rolled a red die and a blue die. Whatever he rolled (red 2 and blue 3 for example) the corresponding cards would be turned over. Whatever the sum of the cards turned over was the roll.

There is no card counting. As soon as the roll was over the cards were put back in the shuffler and placed back in whatever order they came out 1-6.

I have a hard time imaging how this was ported to roulette.

ldiatone
09-28-2014, 12:05 PM
i didnt like the game at both casinos i visited. did you notice how the Roulette game is played??

DJofSD
09-28-2014, 12:13 PM
That's not craps and it's not California.

Care to try again? ;)

BlueShoe
09-28-2014, 02:44 PM
i didnt like the game at both casinos i visited. did you notice how the Roulette game is played??
Simple to play, but bah, not for me.
www.sycuan.com/casino/table-games/mystery-card-roulette/ (http://www.sycuan.com/casino/table-games/mystery-card-roulette/)

thaskalos
09-29-2014, 12:43 AM
When I see a single zero wheel with the European en prison rule, then I might play, but even then, the house PC is still 1.35%, and that has wiped out several generations of hopeful players at the famed Monte Carlo casino.

But not all of them.

http://www.amazon.com/Thirteen-Against-Bank-Roulette-Unbeatable/dp/1843440326/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411965720&sr=1-1&keywords=thirteen+against+the+bank

Great read! :ThmbUp:

_______
09-29-2014, 11:26 AM
But not all of them.

http://www.amazon.com/Thirteen-Against-Bank-Roulette-Unbeatable/dp/1843440326/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411965720&sr=1-1&keywords=thirteen+against+the+bank

Great read! :ThmbUp:

Faulty wheel?

thaskalos
09-29-2014, 01:02 PM
Faulty wheel?

No. Ingenious system.

lansdale
09-29-2014, 07:02 PM
But not all of them.

http://www.amazon.com/Thirteen-Against-Bank-Roulette-Unbeatable/dp/1843440326/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411965720&sr=1-1&keywords=thirteen+against+the+bank

Great read! :ThmbUp:

Agree - great read and would make a great movie, but never happened. For sure it's impossible to beat any game of chance with the Reverse Labouchere, or for that matter, any progressive betting system. Also, no one has ever located the person behind the nom de plume Norman Leigh or been able to confirm any of the details of the story. However, whoever he is, he really can write.

_______
09-29-2014, 07:24 PM
http://www.npr.org/2014/04/25/306869524/los-pelayos-beat-the-wheel

I couldn't remember the names but this was the story I heard about a family in Spain that ID'D an unbalanced wheel.

thaskalos
09-29-2014, 08:00 PM
Agree - great read and would make a great movie, but never happened. For sure it's impossible to beat any game of chance with the Reverse Labouchere, or for that matter, any progressive betting system. Also, no one has ever located the person behind the nom de plume Norman Leigh or been able to confirm any of the details of the story. However, whoever he is, he really can write.
Well...there is a nice and clear picture of the author on the back cover of the edition that I am holding in my hand. :)

To be honest though...I always thought that it never happened. But there is plenty of fiction which is disguised as truth out there...so, I just go by the story-telling. And this was a great story. :ThmbUp:

lansdale
09-30-2014, 01:00 PM
Well...there is a nice and clear picture of the author on the back cover of the edition that I am holding in my hand. :)

To be honest though...I always thought that it never happened. But there is plenty of fiction which is disguised as truth out there...so, I just go by the story-telling. And this was a great story. :ThmbUp:

Hi Thask,

Is this the picture of the guy who actually wrote the book? It's many years since I've read this, but from I understand, the true author of the book was never found, and evidence for the story has proved elusive. Even B. Traven was eventually outed. I really like the book too - a great story well told, and a big favorite with some pro gamblers despite their awareness of its fake math (The latter truth only grasped a decade after I had read it).

The reason I especially picked up on it here, though, is that, since I've found the belief in progressive betting systems to be so common, I try to point out the destructiveness of their mythological power at every opportunity. If anyone simply would stop to thing about it for a second, common sense should kick in - if it were really possible to win with such a simple technique, every casino in the world would be cleaned out in a day.

Cheers,

lansdale

lansdale
09-30-2014, 01:13 PM
http://www.npr.org/2014/04/25/306869524/los-pelayos-beat-the-wheel

I couldn't remember the names but this was the story I heard about a family in Spain that ID'D an unbalanced wheel.

Part of this story is at least plausible - that this guy found a biased wheel in Madrid, clocked it, and exploited it. This is the only way roulette can be beaten. Far less plausible is the idea that he found many more such wheels throughout Europe. And the idea that it worked at all in Vegas - the balance of those wheels is tested more carefully than the average hadron supercollider - or that he even though it would, is completely unbelievable and that part of the story can be assumed to be fabricated.

Anyone who wants to get an idea of how, not only mathematically challenging but labor intensive it can be to actually try and semi-succeed in beating roulette should check out 'The Eudaemonic Pie', an account of the efforts of a group of postdocs with extraordinary math gifts (Doyne Farmer was among those who laid the foundations of chaos theory) to accomplish this task.

thaskalos
09-30-2014, 02:02 PM
Hi Thask,

Is this the picture of the guy who actually wrote the book? It's many years since I've read this, but from I understand, the true author of the book was never found, and evidence for the story has proved elusive. Even B. Traven was eventually outed. I really like the book too - a great story well told, and a big favorite with some pro gamblers despite their awareness of its fake math (The latter truth only grasped a decade after I had read it).

The reason I especially picked up on it here, though, is that, since I've found the belief in progressive betting systems to be so common, I try to point out the destructiveness of their mythological power at every opportunity. If anyone simply would stop to thing about it for a second, common sense should kick in - if it were really possible to win with such a simple technique, every casino in the world would be cleaned out in a day.

Cheers,

lansdale

Well...the way the author spun the story, it WASN'T such a simple technique. All the progressive systems are raise-your-bet-as-you-lose, chase-type systems...where the gambler books many small wins but inevitably gets crushed by the one gigantic loss which awaits in the wings. But this was a system where the player REDUCED his bet as he lost...and was willing to endure the many small losses, while waiting for that fortunate sequence which would allow him to turn the tables on the casino and break the bank. I had never heard of this variation when I read the book, and I still remember how intrigued I was by the idea. In fact...I remember thinking that the casino raised the minimum bets on the roulette just to combat this particular strategy.

I read the book many years ago...and I still have several copies in my possession. I always liked the swash-buckling gamblers who endeavored to "break the bank". :)

lansdale
10-03-2014, 01:21 PM
Well...the way the author spun the story, it WASN'T such a simple technique. All the progressive systems are raise-your-bet-as-you-lose, chase-type systems...where the gambler books many small wins but inevitably gets crushed by the one gigantic loss which awaits in the wings. But this was a system where the player REDUCED his bet as he lost...and was willing to endure the many small losses, while waiting for that fortunate sequence which would allow him to turn the tables on the casino and break the bank. I had never heard of this variation when I read the book, and I still remember how intrigued I was by the idea. In fact...I remember thinking that the casino raised the minimum bets on the roulette just to combat this particular strategy.

I read the book many years ago...and I still have several copies in my possession. I always liked the swash-buckling gamblers who endeavored to "break the bank". :)

Hi Thask,

The Reverse Labouchere is certainly complex compared with most progressive betting schemes and also intriguing in the way that the bets diminish rather than grow larger. But compared with any successful real-world gambling, it's extremely simple, both in terms of mental energy and labor-time requirements.
I enjoy gambling stories like this too. In reality, they have the structure and appeal of the kind of heist films like 'Ocean's Eleven'. A pleasant fantasy.

Cheers,

lansdale