Illinois Racing

[illinoisbred]

Over the past couple of years there has been very little posted here regarding racing in Illinois. Outside of a thread about the malfunction or mis-timing of Arlington's turf races (which still continues on by the way), not much else. I'm just curious about the reasons many find the Illinois product uninteresting from a wagering or discussion perspective. I neither work at, nor affiliated with Arlington or Hawthorne. I have played both tracks loyally for 32 years but am at just about the point where I'm considering moving my play elsewhere. Look forward to reading all responses.

[lamboguy]

if you bet straight wagers, the Canadien tracks give you a decent shot for your money. they all pay to the dime. New York also pays the same way. those places give you the best bang for your buck before a rebate. Woodbine gives big fields and NYRA also.

the breakage is a very big deal. i bet a horse in Churchill 2 weeks ago for $600 to win. the horse won and paid $3.80 for win, before the breakage it should have been $3.96, i lost $48 or 8%, plus i paid the takeout. its basically impossible to overcome that disadvantage in the long run.

[forced89]

Me an my friends go to Fairmount Park every Tuesday afternoon we can. Love it. Never bet Arlington or Hawthorne.

[illinoisbred]

Thanks Lamboguy and Forced 89. Forced..any reason(s) in particular why you don't play Arlington or Hawthorne? With the smaller purses coming very soon to both Chicago tracks, Hawthorne is very likely to resemble Fairmount"North" this fall.I expect more than the usual FP runners up here.

[wisconsin]

I, for one, still mourn the loss of Arlington's dirt. I can't stand the racing there these days. Hawthorne often has short fields so you really have to wait it out to find a decent bet there.

[Steve 'StatMan']

And with the lack of certainty in the future, Arlington isn't going to spend the money to replace the Polytrack. I doubt it would happen until they get slots, and even then, who knows. I haven't been betting any racing, let alone the local IL races, the last couple years - I'm still too burned out - long story. I do enjoy turf races, and personally don't mind the Polytrack. However, the season being Dirt with Layoff horses at HAW and rarely any turf due to weather and seasonal conditions to begin the year. Then Polytrack and Turf races through end of September, with many horses as I remember going off form during the heat of the summer and after the 4th of July Fireworks. Then dirt and turf racing again at Hawthorne in Oct to Dec, with the turf course grass going into the fall non-growth, death and dormancy cycle, more like hard dirt in November.

[Robert Goren]

Hawthorne can grab my interest sometimes if I am at the simulcast center. The problem with Arlington is that when it is running there are better alternatives. It is caught in a no man's land between the best racing like at NYRA and the "bullrings". The handicapping methods that work at NYRA are not profitable there and neither are the "bullring" methods. You have to develop a special set of handicapping methods just for it. It just isn't worth the bother.

[illinoisbred]

Thanks Wisconsin, Steve,and Robert Goren. Yeah, I'm working with the assumption that the polytrack likely leads to the most disinterest. Gone are the glory days at AP with their fantastic "dirt" stakes schedule. The Washington Park Handicap,all thats really left for "dirt" stakes horses has pretty much been destroyed since the advent of polytrack.

And Steve, noticed the same pattern a couple months into racing at AP. Seems many do go off form.

Robert Goren..yes, AP is up against it running concurrently against some race meets. I always thought Hawthorne really got the worst of this in the spring. Some track somewhere always seems to have a super,Derby trail card every single saturday.

[thaskalos]

IMO...there is nothing worse, from a handicapping standpoint, than having different racing surfaces on your two local racetracks. That's what killed my interest in Illinois racing. The past performances are not believable when the horses switch from Hawthorne to Arlington, and back again. And by the time the horses from Hawthorne have established their Arlington form, I have lost interest in the entire scene...and have moved on to another track.

[illinoisbred]

Thanks Thaskalos..or Gus..the change in surfaces surely does complicate matters. To me it really seems speed gets throttled,compressed at AP on the poly( not so sure if its the surface or riding tactics) and the "true" current pace and speed abilities often come to the fore 1st,2nd time out at Hawthorne.

[Valuist]

I, for one, still mourn the loss of Arlington's dirt. I can't stand the racing there these days. Hawthorne often has short fields so you really have to wait it out to find a decent bet there.

I feel the exact same way. I grew up 5 miles from Arlington and it took a perfect storm of negativity for the ensuing Polytrack to result. The rash of breakdowns on the main track in 2006 could've been nothing more than a statistical anomaly. But the Chicago Tribune was hell bent on tearing into Arlington for the breakdowns. Toss in the fact a newly appointed president to run Arlington (can't remember his name; he's no longer there; it was Colonel something) had ZERO experience in horse racing and they pressed the panic button.

Once upon a time, they had a number of strong barns there. But as long as the Polytrack is there, Arlington's glory days will never return.

Hawthorne's niche is for fall/early winter racing. They used to have the fullest fields in all of racing. They still get decent field sizes in the fall but they've been hurt by racing in Indiana. But they can't fill their fields in the spring meet. Sportsman's was the ideal spring meet, and I believe the true downfall of Chicago racing started when Sportsmans expanded to a 7 furlong track, then put the auto track in, then completely got out of the horse racing game.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Col. Roy Arnold.

I loved the first 7f track. But the replacement 7f track that was put over the auto track was a boondoggle - and Sportsman's management attacked anyone that dared to question or cast doubt on their auto/horse racing plans and pretty much drove the internal people either to leave or keep their mouths shut - and the failure began. I never did get to plant those free Daisy Seeds from an early promotion on their side of the property after they closed.

Geographics are hard there too. People from the city who can drive still don't usually like driving out to AP. People in the NW suburbs normally abhor driving to Hawthorne (and Sportsman's) neighborhood. People in the city to the north of Hawthorne don't want to travel through the dangerous and dismal west side to get there. If they even would do it during the day, they won't do it going home in the dark at night, and Hawthorne runs in Fall, Winter & Spring when the daylight is scarcer.

[Valuist]

Col. Roy Arnold.

I loved the first 7f track. But the replacement 7f track that was put over the auto track was a boondoggle - and Sportsman's management attacked anyone that dared to question or cast doubt on their auto/horse racing plans and pretty much drove the internal people either to leave or keep their mouths shut - and the failure began. I never did get to plant those free Daisy Seeds from an early promotion on their side of the property after they closed.

Geographics are hard there too. People from the city who can drive still don't usually like driving out to AP. People in the NW suburbs normally abhor driving to Hawthorne (and Sportsman's) neighborhood. People in the city to the north of Hawthorne don't want to travel through the dangerous and dismal west side to get there. If they even would do it during the day, they won't do it going home in the dark at night, and Hawthorne runs in Fall, Winter & Spring when the daylight is scarcer.

Those are all valid points. Its a pretty lengthy drive from the NW suburbs to Stickney/Cicero. And the drive home, in rush hour, is horrible. People in the city can always take the Metra to Arlington, but I don't blame them for not wanting to drive thru the west side to get to Hawthorne. Some very, very rough areas to the east of Hawthorne. I sympathize with Hawthorne, because I feel they are one track who does look out for the bettor. But there's only so much they can do, and the product in the spring just isn't playable.

It used to be most barns, except for the real top barns who'd go to Florida, would turn their horses out for winter and start up again in February at Sportsmans. There's always been some barns that would go to the FG but we've seen a real exodus of barns going to Hot Springs and staying for the full meet. I think Hawthorne should either run all thru the winter, or just close up shop until late March.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Are the IL tracks still legally taking money from the purse account due to that damn awful legislation called Recaputre, which the horsemen agreed to to get the tracks to approve full card similcasting back in 1994, and guaranteed that the tracks got compensation to what the Live handle was at the 1994 level?

[illinoisbred]

Thanks Valuist. Agree with you regarding the drive from the NW burbs to Hawthorne. I went down on a couple saturdays a fall or 2 ago and the jam up between 1st Ave and Mannheim Rd. was horrible both times.Also, it really did seem like there was a true start to the racing year when Sportsmans was in business. Some of the better stables would wait out the meet,maybe get a start or 2 in near the end. Racing almost felt like baseball back then..an opening day worth looking forward to.

[Tom]

I once gave directions from Google for Patrick PKTruckdriver, to get to Hawthorne. I don't recall I ever heard from him again!? :eek:

[illinoisbred]

I once gave directions from Google for Patrick PKTruckdriver, to get to Hawthorne. I don't recall I ever heard from him again!? :eek:
LOL.....Patrick was alive and well the last time I saw him at Arlington during the PA get-together a year or 2 ago.

[Maximillion]

i used to lived near Cicero ave on the NW side and that was the road we took when we went up there.Definitely want the doors locked and the windows rolled up.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I've boycotted Illinois racing for about four years now, due to one of many fiascoes when the ADW signals were yanked just prior to Saratoga and Del Mar starting up. I just got fed up with being an abused pawn, jerked around by groups that have little interest or capability to manage racing in the Land of Lincoln. The most recent example is:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/87481/illinois-board-has-tough-call-on-2015-dates

It just never changes for the better for the bettor. The obscene OTB and ADW "surcharges", some of which is used to support the crappy harness racing just used to irritate me to no end as an Illinois resident. Gladly moved from the state last year.

Got weaned on racing in Illinois, and have plenty of fond memories from the Quad Cities and Fairmount back in the '80s. Sportmen's used to have some outrageous biases, and I loved the cheap horses that ran at Balmoral on Sundays back in the day. Today I think Arlington still offers some decent turf races, and going to/from Poly does open up some nice bets for horses that love/hate it. But short of the Breeder's Cup returning to AP, Illinois racing won't get a slim dime of my dough any time soon.

[illinoisbred]

Understandable Hoofless Wonder. And now the supplemental money coming from the riverboats/casinos is running out and purses will plummet. Hard to see any quality even at Arlington next summer. This summer was rough...difficult to fill races. Can't imagine things will be better next year.

[Redboard]

Too many statebreds.

[illinoisbred]

Too many statebreds.
But isn't that the case almost everywhere? The decent ill-breds hold their own when shipping out to Kentucky, Arkansas,and Louisiana. Suntracer just won the Kentucky Turf Cup last weekend at Kentucky Downs. Recently, I saw the current foaling numbers in Illinois and they're considerably down from past years.

[thaskalos]

Understandable Hoofless Wonder. And now the supplemental money coming from the riverboats/casinos is running out and purses will plummet. Hard to see any quality even at Arlington next summer. This summer was rough...difficult to fill races. Can't imagine things will be better next year.
I know that this is not the popular opinion...but I wouldn't mind an Illinois racing scene consisting only of Hawthorne Park. I have a certain fondness for "cheap" racing...and a year-long Hawthorne campaign appeals to me, in a way. I don't consider the possible closing down of Arlington to be such a tragedy for the horseplayer.

[illinoisbred]

I know that this is not the popular opinion...but I wouldn't mind an Illinois racing scene consisting only of Hawthorne Park. I have a certain fondness for "cheap" racing...and a year-long Hawthorne campaign appeals to me, in a way. I don't consider the possible closing down of Arlington to be such a tragedy for the horseplayer.
Could Hawthorne possibly survive without Arlington? I do remember the one year..late 80's..when the rebuilding of AP was in earnest and no dates were sought... when Hawthorne ran through the summer. They carried the load nicely but everyone pitched in to preserve racing here. I think Balmoral had the fall dates that year.

[Valuist]

Thanks Valuist. Agree with you regarding the drive from the NW burbs to Hawthorne. I went down on a couple saturdays a fall or 2 ago and the jam up between 1st Ave and Mannheim Rd. was horrible both times.Also, it really did seem like there was a true start to the racing year when Sportsmans was in business. Some of the better stables would wait out the meet,maybe get a start or 2 in near the end. Racing almost felt like baseball back then..an opening day worth looking forward to.

And the racing coverage by the Sun Times, Tribune and Daily Herald was excellent back then. Dave Feldman was one of the main contributors for the Sun Times and Neil Milbert for the Tribune. The Daily Herald really only covered the Arlington meet but it was a significant part of their sports page. All three used to have full result charts. Now you are lucky to see summary results.

[Valuist]

Too many statebreds.

THere are but these races fill. Same as in New York, although I'd put the NY breeding program decidedly above Illinois. But for a number of years, that wasn't the case. Many of the state bred horses seem to race for a number of years and many of those types become fan favorites.

If you go back 20 years it definitely wasn't the case at Arlington. But with the gradual descent of Chicago racing, a number of top barns have gone elsewhere, and with them went many of the good non-Illinois breds.

[Valuist]

I know that this is not the popular opinion...but I wouldn't mind an Illinois racing scene consisting only of Hawthorne Park. I have a certain fondness for "cheap" racing...and a year-long Hawthorne campaign appeals to me, in a way. I don't consider the possible closing down of Arlington to be such a tragedy for the horseplayer.

As a bettor I agree but I still love the turf at Arlington, as well as the atmosphere and I don't like making the long drive to Hawthorne. I think it comes down to this: if Arlington is to ever make a comeback, they need to tear out that awful PlasticTrack and put a real dirt surface back in. And as long as CDI owns them, they won't put that $$ into racing because they only care about their casinos, and 2 days of racing in early May in Louisville.

[olddaddy]

I started to boycott illinois racing the same time Hoofless Wonder did due to the adw fiasco. In the past I did enjoy the international festival of racing, now its only one day. I noticed the million had like only 8 horses this year and it wasnt because of track conditions or a super horse coming in. If they cant fill that race , they have some major problems. Dickie D is a very old man and when he goes so does AP.

[brdman12]

When I pick my races for the day, Chicago just can't compete. Saturday I played..Monmouth, Woodbine, Belmont, Gulfstream...Later I played Los Alamitos, Indiana, Charlestown, Penn. I live in Illinois, I would like to support Illinois racing, and occasionally do but like many tracks, its hard to find plays that suit my betting.

[illinoisbred]

When I pick my races for the day, Chicago just can't compete. Saturday I played..Monmouth, Woodbine, Belmont, Gulfstream...Later I played Los Alamitos, Indiana, Charlestown, Penn. I live in Illinois, I would like to support Illinois racing, and occasionally do but like many tracks, its hard to find plays that suit my betting.
Yes,the short fields really hurt here in Chicago but when I look at other tracks that are at least likely to survive the coming contraction,they too appear plagued by short fields with the exception of Oaklawn Park... which I do play having already forsaked the bulk of the Hawthorne spring meet.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I know that this is not the popular opinion...but I wouldn't mind an Illinois racing scene consisting only of Hawthorne Park. I have a certain fondness for "cheap" racing...and a year-long Hawthorne campaign appeals to me, in a way. I don't consider the possible closing down of Arlington to be such a tragedy for the horseplayer.

I have to agree with the vibe. I admit to not betting much in general the last few years, but I can still enjoy handicapping the cheapies at Hawthorne. The race cards there usually yield something I can sink my teeth into and want to play. Arlington has just all of its appeal. I once loved to play main track races there (have never liked the AP turf racing for some reason) but I'm flat lost now and don't care to find my way. Hawthorne looks, sounds, and feels like a real race track.

[Maximillion]

Thanks Valuist. Agree with you regarding the drive from the NW burbs to Hawthorne. I went down on a couple saturdays a fall or 2 ago and the jam up between 1st Ave and Mannheim Rd. was horrible both times.Also, it really did seem like there was a true start to the racing year when Sportsmans was in business. Some of the better stables would wait out the meet,maybe get a start or 2 in near the end. Racing almost felt like baseball back then..an opening day worth looking forward to.

It really was a unique setup......with a bullring track opening the start of a racing season.I remember names like Theos Machine and others who seemed to thrive on the sharp turns at that oval.
Hawthorne in October used to be my favorite month of the year for playing when AP had dirt....now that month for me at least is now almost unplayable.

[Prairie Bettor]

I believe everything in Illinois and Chicago is fixed.

From politics to racing...

[illinoisbred]

I believe everything in Illinois and Chicago is fixed.

From politics to racing...
Um....not Arlington's turf teletimer..

[thaskalos]

Um....not Arlington's turf teletimer..

:D Excellent!

[1st time lasix]

A few things I like about Illinois racing: 1} Arlington Park itself is a beautiful facility...a great place to go to see races live. The turf course is terrific. Like the one dollar pick six offering. I have hit a couple of times- as the carryover approaches 10 k. It is often overlooked by the "big boy' pk six syndicates. Mr D is a great guy. 2} love the lower takeouts and the long stretch run at Hawthorne dirt...a great place to key an underappreciated closer in the superfecta. Splitting favorites by using closing longer shots in the two and three hole can be lucrative. One of only a very few tracks I like to play that particular exotic.

[therussmeister]

I believe everything in Illinois and Chicago is fixed.

From politics to racing...
I think everything in Illinois is broken.


From politics to racing...

[olddaddy]

I think everything in Illinois is broken.


From politics to racing...

Thats a for sure not a think.

[thespaah]

if you bet straight wagers, the Canadien tracks give you a decent shot for your money. they all pay to the dime. New York also pays the same way. those places give you the best bang for your buck before a rebate. Woodbine gives big fields and NYRA also.

the breakage is a very big deal. i bet a horse in Churchill 2 weeks ago for $600 to win. the horse won and paid $3.80 for win, before the breakage it should have been $3.96, i lost $48 or 8%, plus i paid the takeout. its basically impossible to overcome that disadvantage in the long run.
States that use dime breakage with a round down are ripping off their bettors.
Nickel breakage is much more player friendly.

[forced89]

I know that this is not the popular opinion...but I wouldn't mind an Illinois racing scene consisting only of Hawthorne Park.

I'm with you if you are willing to keep Fairmount Park. It is a long way from St Louis to visit Hawthorne.

[thaskalos]

I'm with you if you are willing to keep Fairmount Park. It is a long way from St Louis to visit Hawthorne.

Keep Fairmount Park. Cheap dirt sprints are my bread and butter. :)

[cj]

States that use dime breakage with a round down are ripping off their bettors.
Nickel breakage is much more player friendly.

This is like saying shoplifters are much more friendly than armed burglars...true, but both are still criminals.

[BIG49010]

Left the State of Illinois in 2003, quit betting their racing product about the same time. Learned to handicap from MSM back in the days of Sportsman's on the 3rd floor, and used to love the off season to recharge the batteries and couldn't wait for late Feb. when SPT would open.

Over the years the poor decisions and the crying by the tracks has gotten to me. They still want slots, which is incredibly stupid, when you hear on WBBM that the casino boats on the lake in Indiana are looking for alternate forms of gambling, because they are loosing money. You really think that CD Inc. or the Carry family are smarter than the casino operators. I believe with all the slots in this country, prove me wrong, we've run out of bodies to play them.

What will they want next, if they get them and fail?

Follow racing in NY, NJ, Maryland and Florida they seem to get it. Enjoy KY Downs and Keeneland and call it a day.

I think it's time for Illinois racing to go away, unless someone like Dick D wants to put up his own money to have a good meeting and kick CD out of the picture. Hawthorne same thing, Carry can put up his money and have racing. No more handouts, slots, etc. you can't make it, go out of business!

[cj]

I tried betting Arlington today, couldn't pull the trigger. It looked totally foreign to me.

[thespaah]

This is like saying shoplifters are much more friendly than armed burglars...true, but both are still criminals.
:lol:
The real punisher is the round down.
The odds on a horse could in real math be say 2.69-1 which would pay a mutuel of $8.38 is rounded down to $8.20. The track takes 9 cents on every dollar ABOVE the takeout.
So lets say there were 10,000 winning $2 tickets placed on that horse.
10k X 0.18(cents for each $2 wager) is divided by half is $900..
That's a free $900 for the track for doing nothing...
At least with nickel breakage that mutuel would be $8.30

[Hoofless_Wonder]

http://qctimes.com/news/local/quad-city-downs-closing/article_10938466-9839-11e4-b0e8-d3bde4fe4359.html

Didn't see this posted elsewhere - the OTB at the Quad City Downs facility closed last month. You wouldn't know that looking at Arlington's web site, which is the track that "owned/ran/managed/hosted" that OTB location.

Plenty of good memories from there 30 years ago, when they'd race "into the setting sun" as track announcer Tom Croarkin would call. Drivers and trainers like Tony and Greg Morgan, Tom Simmons, Joel Smith, Richard Kurtzworth, Tim Curtin, John Reese and others made for some good racing. A buddy of mine who owned a couple of harness horses prior to me moving back to Illinois got me interested, having had some success racing a couple of them. When the OCD shut down for the winter, most of their stock would come down for the winter harness season at Fairmount Park.

The first time I went there my buddy had a "lock" with a horse named Kellytuck Nichole, who wired the field in the feature that night - not often done in harness racing back then. I was amazed at some his other "friends" who would bet hundreds in a race at QCD on Sunday afternoons, and would turn the channels of the little TV at our clubhouse table to try and catch NFL scores - during the race - since they had thousands riding on those games. I was a small fish surrounded by wanna-be whales.

I learned how to handicap the races pretty well from the program, and then was able to focus on the wagering patterns and of course keeping an eye on the drivers who glanced at the tote board while warming up their horses......little did I know that was the peak of Illinois racing back then.

[biggestal99]

Thanks Wisconsin, Steve,and Robert Goren. Yeah, I'm working with the assumption that the polytrack likely leads to the most disinterest. Gone are the glory days at AP with their fantastic "dirt" stakes schedule. The Washington Park Handicap,all thats really left for "dirt" stakes horses has pretty much been destroyed since the advent of polytrack.

And Steve, noticed the same pattern a couple months into racing at AP. Seems many do go off form.

Robert Goren..yes, AP is up against it running concurrently against some race meets. I always thought Hawthorne really got the worst of this in the spring. Some track somewhere always seems to have a super,Derby trail card every single saturday.

Woodbine does okay and they have poly.

Allan

[BIG49010]

Was told today that Arlington / Churchill is at stand still with the horseman, and there might not be any races opening day at Arlington?

[chadk66]

I've been told that Arlington wants to replace the Poly but they don't dare right now because apparently they are in the middle of a lawsuit. I believe it's a rider that is suing them and claiming the Poly was the cause. Arlington is claiming it isn't but it would sure look bad if they pulled it.

[wisconsin]

Was told today that Arlington / Churchill is at stand still with the horseman, and there might not be any races opening day at Arlington?


Happened in 2012, threat of no Derby, etc, had racing with 3 and 4 horse fields first 2 days of the meet.

[Stoleitbreezing]

Was told today that Arlington / Churchill is at stand still with the horseman, and there might not be any races opening day at Arlington?

You have a link on this? Can't find anything anywhere.

[thaskalos]

Happened in 2012, threat of no Derby, etc, had racing with 3 and 4 horse fields first 2 days of the meet.
Yeah...and 5 and 6 horse fields thereafter.

[illinoisbred]

I've been told that Arlington wants to replace the Poly but they don't dare right now because apparently they are in the middle of a lawsuit. I believe it's a rider that is suing them and claiming the Poly was the cause. Arlington is claiming it isn't but it would sure look bad if they pulled it.
This is news to me. It's my understanding Arlington has no intentions of replacing the polytrack with a new dirt surface now or anytime in the future. They really need to do something..the poly is well beyond it's life expectancy. They have been adding something to the mix..not sure what..but it surely looks nothing like it did when 1st installed. Was originally a light grayish tan,now a dark cinder,almost black in color.

[illinoisbred]

http://www.itharacing.com/news-media/news-detail.2015/03/27/itha-ap-cc
Sorry..link doesn't seem to work. You can go to itharacing.com and find the latest. supposed to be some sort of arbitration of this matter today.

[chadk66]

This is news to me. It's my understanding Arlington has no intentions of replacing the polytrack with a new dirt surface now or anytime in the future. They really need to do something..the poly is well beyond it's life expectancy. They have been adding something to the mix..not sure what..but it surely looks nothing like it did when 1st installed. Was originally a light grayish tan,now a dark cinder,almost black in color.this was something that was told to my brother by a couple riders. makes perfect sense to me.

[illinoisbred]

this was something that was told to my brother by a couple riders. makes perfect sense to me.
Agree,it makes sense. From it's inception,the very nature of poly racing was quite dangerous..the bunching up at the head of the stretch. It was frightening to just watch over and over again. Polytrack has always been sort of a chicken vs egg thing..what came 1st..the perception riders had to ride the poly in that manner to be successful,or the reality of the surface? My thought is perception preceded reality. They rode in this manner from the very 1st day on at Arlington. Some riders,or should say some trainers have taken a different approach in recent years and wing it from the getgo as if the poly was dirt..Rivelli,Mason...and their results suggest it can be ridden the same as dirt.

[chadk66]

Agree,it makes sense. From it's inception,the very nature of poly racing was quite dangerous..the bunching up at the head of the stretch. It was frightening to just watch over and over again. Polytrack has always been sort of a chicken vs egg thing..what came 1st..the perception riders had to ride the poly in that manner to be successful,or the reality of the surface? My thought is perception preceded reality. They rode in this manner from the very 1st day on at Arlington. Some riders,or should say some trainers have taken a different approach in recent years and wing it from the getgo as if the poly was dirt..Rivelli,Mason...and their results suggest it can be ridden the same as dirt.poly didn't exist when I trained. And I haven't watched enough poly races to make a determination at all. I don't understand why it would race any different than dirt. Can you elaborate on what your saying.

[wisconsin]

Yeah...and 5 and 6 horse fields thereafter.


The Golden Gate Fields of the Midwest :lol:

[Scav]

Rene Douglas has the pending lawsuit, which is why they won't pull the surface until that is settled.

[chadk66]

Rene Douglas has the pending lawsuit, which is why they won't pull the surface until that is settled.thank you. made perfect sense to me.

[illinoisbred]

Any surface change would have to be down the road..at least next year. i'm not so sure Arlington is in much of a position to do any long-term planning..probably will be lucky just to survive this season. Seems everyone is going elsewhere..Prairie Meadows,Canterbury,Indiana. Saturday saw 10 horses work at AP..mostly Rivelli, Mason stock. Indiana had 132 T-breds work the very same morning.

[wisconsin]

Any surface change would have to be down the road..at least next year. i'm not so sure Arlington is in much of a position to do any long-term planning..probably will be lucky just to survive this season. Seems everyone is going elsewhere..Prairie Meadows,Canterbury,Indiana. Saturday saw 10 horses work at AP..mostly Rivelli, Mason stock. Indiana had 132 T-breds work the very same morning.

To be fair, what about the horses currently stabled at Hawthorne? There were plenty of workouts there Saturday. Won't most of those be moving to Arlington?

[illinoisbred]

To be fair, what about the horses currently stabled at Hawthorne? There were plenty of workouts there Saturday. Won't most of those be moving to Arlington?
True enough..the bulk of Hawthorne stock I'd think.

[Stoleitbreezing]

I went to the Illinois Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association ITHA website and see they have quite the disagreement with AP/CDI. I've not heard specifically if there will be any change to the polytrack or any delay with the upcoming AP meet. If someone has a link stating otherwise can you please post? Thanks

[Stoleitbreezing]

I really hope this meet goes off without issue. I've been waiting so long to get my horse to the track, and now she's almost ready to debut at Arlington. I'd go nuts if something happened to the meet.

[Striker]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/illinois-horsemen-arlington-park-reach-contract-agreement/

[thespaah]

if you bet straight wagers, the Canadien tracks give you a decent shot for your money. they all pay to the dime. New York also pays the same way. those places give you the best bang for your buck before a rebate. Woodbine gives big fields and NYRA also.

the breakage is a very big deal. i bet a horse in Churchill 2 weeks ago for $600 to win. the horse won and paid $3.80 for win, before the breakage it should have been $3.96, i lost $48 or 8%, plus i paid the takeout. its basically impossible to overcome that disadvantage in the long run.
Assuming nickel breakage it would have paid $3.90, correct?

[thespaah]

According to my buddies in the Chicago burbs...Chicagoland has the worst road system...
If you stay on the surface roads there is a traffic light ( that always seems to be red) every other block. If you take the highways, the tolls will cost you the national debt of a small country. That is of course if you can make it through the interminable and seemingly permanent construction zones where no one ever seems to be working.
Ok....Those are my words paraphrasing the complaints of my friends.
Back to subject...
I cannot bet poly. I suck at it. I don't understand it and that is why I never bet Arlington anymore. I just made my first bet at Keeneland for the first time in years.
I think the quality of the racing stock in Chicago is way down. During the height of the AP meet a typical field cannot run a mile in under 1:40.....And that's around one turn

[Stoleitbreezing]

I was at Arlington this past Sunday because my friend from work lives in the area and wanted to go. It was an awful card they had each race 5-6 horses fields dominated by favorites. Even the grass races didn't have entries. Had I not been on track I wouldn't have played any of the races there. Seems as though since going to 4 days a week in July they've been having more problems filling races despite the 8 race cards. I saw DRF posted an article about the entry problem, but its one of those DRF+ articles you have to pay money for. Can someone post that article here, or know what's going on at Arlington?

[thaskalos]

I was at Arlington this past Sunday because my friend from work lives in the area and wanted to go. It was an awful card they had each race 5-6 horses fields dominated by favorites. Even the grass races didn't have entries. Had I not been on track I wouldn't have played any of the races there. Seems as though since going to 4 days a week in July they've been having more problems filling races despite the 8 race cards. I saw DRF posted an article about the entry problem, but its one of those DRF+ articles you have to pay money for. Can someone post that article here, or know what's going on at Arlington?
I have a friend on the "inside" who tells me that Arlington Park is on its last legs...barring a legislative miracle.

Good riddance...I say.

[cj]

I have a friend on the "inside" who tells me that Arlington Park is on its last legs...barring a legislative miracle.

Good riddance...I say.

It is horrible racing. The fields stink, the polytrack is worn out, the turf race timing is a joke, and nobody bets it. It basically gets the Fairmount Park treatment now from TVG/HRTV. In fact, you probably see more Fairmount races since they run on Monday and Tuesday.

[BIG49010]

I have a friend on the "inside" who tells me that Arlington Park is on its last legs...barring a legislative miracle.

Good riddance...I say.

I don't even think a legislative miracle will save it, CD Inc will pocket the money from slots, and continue this BS

[illinoisbred]

It is horrible racing. The fields stink, the polytrack is worn out, the turf race timing is a joke, and nobody bets it. It basically gets the Fairmount Park treatment now from TVG/HRTV. In fact, you probably see more Fairmount races since they run on Monday and Tuesday.
It is horrible and the racing quite uninteresting. The future prospects for Illinois do not look good. I heard President of the Illinois Senate,John Cullerton say in a interview that help for the tracks won't come until the Chicago casino matter has been dealt with..and that won't be happening soon.Personally, I became so disheartened with our fall off the racing cliff that I've abandoned Illinois racing altogether and now play elsewhere.

[Stoleitbreezing]

As a minority owner in a syndicate I have an interest in an IL bred horse. I recently became a member of the ITHA or Illinois Thoroughbred Horsemen Association and have registered for there website. Since registering I'm constantly reading information as to how CDI/Churchill is hell bent on destroying IL racing and fighting with the IRB. From what I read it seems the issues they are having are very much of there own doing. I'm holding out hope there can be something to save it.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

It's shame that a fine facility like Arlington has such a poor racing surface and is going downhill. It wasn't that long ago that it had pretty fine racing.

OTH, after being jerked around for years as an Illinois resident and horseplayer, I can't say that the IRB, the politicians, the track owners and the horsemen aren't getting what they deserve. I can have some sympathy for the honest folks getting squeezed, but this is what happens when greed and corruption prevail.

Maybe the industry will need to go under, and then be poised for a comeback as soon as some of the fingers get removed from the racing pie.

[forced89]

The real winner in this fiasco will be the casino that has an option to buy Fairmount Park. After slots are approved they will exercise their option and start marketing to Missouri (emphasis on St Louis) residents. Fairmount is a straight shot from St Louis and right off the Interstate.

[AlBundy33]

It's shame that a fine facility like Arlington has such a poor racing surface and is going downhill. It wasn't that long ago that it had pretty fine racing.

OTH, after being jerked around for years as an Illinois resident and horseplayer, I can't say that the IRB, the politicians, the track owners and the horsemen aren't getting what they deserve. I can have some sympathy for the honest folks getting squeezed, but this is what happens when greed and corruption prevail.

Maybe the industry will need to go under, and then be poised for a comeback as soon as some of the fingers get removed from the racing pie.

I would have to agree with you. Hard to believe that fifteen years ago, it was arguably the best overall racing....at least to me with Arlington, Hawthorne and the Balmoral/Maywood doubleheader on Thursday/Friday/Saturday on the harness side.

Now outside of the Hawthorne Fall meet, it's not even on my radar.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Looks like Hawthorne wants some harness dates next year. Some more details on dates requested, issues facing Illinois tracks:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/93331/arlington-hawthorne-mesh-16-dates-schedules?source=rss

[Valuist]

According to my buddies in the Chicago burbs...Chicagoland has the worst road system...
If you stay on the surface roads there is a traffic light ( that always seems to be red) every other block. If you take the highways, the tolls will cost you the national debt of a small country. That is of course if you can make it through the interminable and seemingly permanent construction zones where no one ever seems to be working.
Ok....Those are my words paraphrasing the complaints of my friends.
Back to subject...
I cannot bet poly. I suck at it. I don't understand it and that is why I never bet Arlington anymore. I just made my first bet at Keeneland for the first time in years.
I think the quality of the racing stock in Chicago is way down. During the height of the AP meet a typical field cannot run a mile in under 1:40.....And that's around one turn

I'm moving from the Chicago area to the Bay area and someone mentioned how bad the traffic is in the Bay Area. I was like, are you kidding? For one thing, they don't have 1/10th of the road construction that Chicago has. The constant thawing and freezing just destroys the roads so the construction is never ending. Another thing is the police are extremely aggressive in issuing tickets.

But its very sad what has happened to Arlington. Granted this crumbling in racing quality hasn't happened overnight. It was probably at its highest level in the years after Duchossois rebuilt (1989). But since the turn of the century its steadily gone downhill. But nowadays they can't even fill garbage races. The Poly sped up the downfall, and Indiana Downs has taken away a lot of the horse population.

My guess is when Duchossois dies, CDI will quickly shutter Arlington.

[Tall One]

Giving gambling licenses to convicted felons with ties to the Chicago mob doesn't sound like a sound business decision either.

In one case, the Illinois Gaming Board approved licenses for a man who admitted in federal court he installed illegal terminals in west suburban taverns and then falsified tax documents so he and the bar owners could hide the illicit income.

The board also licensed a man previously charged with felony syndicated gambling for allegedly working with his father to install illegal video gambling machines in McHenry County bars. Those charges were later dropped as part of a plea deal. That man now serves as president of a trade organization that has lobbied for video gambling.

And the board said it didn't know a Rockford restaurant owner it licensed was a convicted felon who once stole $146,000 from a South Carolina hotel

Full article here (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-video-gaming-licenses-met-20150721-story.html#page=2)

[thaskalos]

I just closed on a condo just off the Las Vegas Strip...and I am literally counting the days until my son moves away for college, so I can do some moving of my own. Living in the Chicago-area has been a nightmare that it will take a long time to recover from.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I just closed on a condo just off the Las Vegas Strip...and I am literally counting the days until my son moves away for college, so I can do some moving of my own. Living in the Chicago-area has been a nightmare that it will take a long time to recover from.

Congrats Thask! Plenty of race books, sports books and poker rooms in Sin City should keep you off the streets.....

[Tall One]

Congrats... :)

70 degrees in January will help with the recovery process, Thask... :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Congrats... :)

70 degrees in January will help with the recovery process, Thask... :ThmbUp:
Where I plan to be...I expect it to be around 70 degrees all year round. :)

[Tall One]

Touche.. :)

[Stoleitbreezing]

I'm going to the Million again this year. Hope the racing is better then last year's Million. The crowd should be nice again, but its a sad state how far IL racing has fallen.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/94782/irb-approves-racing-consolidation-plan?source=rss

The Illinois Racing Board Sept. 29 voted to consolidate all 2016 Chicago-area racing at Arlington International Racecourse and Hawthorne Race Course, averting potential draconian cuts at both those tracks.

Many subplots to the decisions, including fears over the fate of the Illinois harness horses:

As a subplot during the dates hearing, Byrne attempted several times to raise concerns about the welfare of horses and backstretch workers who might be left stranded when Maywood ceases operations at the end of September. She asked whether hundreds of those horses might wind up in slaughterhouses.

"It's not going to happen," said Maywood president Duke Johnston. "There's not going to be a single horse slaughtered."

But David McCaffrey, president of the Illinois Harness Horsemen's Association, was less sanguine about the prospects. Asked if he agreed with Johnston's assertion, McCaffrey said, "No. Certainly not (stated) that emphatically." He said few Illinois-bred harness horses are competitive in other states, limiting the potential market. "You cannot say unequivocally that no horses will go to slaughter," he said.

[Stoleitbreezing]

This seemed to be the only option to keep the industry afloat without other gaming to support the purses. Personally, it will be sad that Balmoral and Maywood will be closed as they were the first tracks I went to when I started playing horses at 16 yrs old. After the lawsuit and bankruptcy fiasco those tracks average purses I believe were around 2K which I'm not sure how the owners and trainers supported themselves or the horses with that thin of a purse. The winner in those races most likely earned a bowl of soup where the others probably starved.

I recall a few years back when Hawthorne ran a standard bred meet "suburban downs" fellow horseplayers seemed to enjoy playing that meet and the consensus was positive. Hawthorne and the Carey family run a nice meet in most cases.

I can only hope gaming and Arlington doing away from the awful poly track will be on the horizon soon. IL racing and IL politics I won't be holding my breath. They say hope is the last thing to die....

[Hoofless_Wonder]

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2016-01-29/horse-tracks-closures-today-prompted-recent-otb-closure.html

http://www.wjbc.com/2016/01/27/bloomington-otb-closing-its-doors/

A month late with these notices. The spiral down continues for horse racing in The Land of Lincoln.

[thaskalos]

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2016-01-29/horse-tracks-closures-today-prompted-recent-otb-closure.html

http://www.wjbc.com/2016/01/27/bloomington-otb-closing-its-doors/

A month late with these notices. The spiral down continues for horse racing in The Land of Lincoln.
The OTB located 3 minutes from my house was one of those that had to close because of Maywood's financial woes...but I was too emotionally distraught over it to mention it here :). It was a mercy killing though...because business there had nosedived in recent years to the point were there weren't even enough patrons there to get a good card-game going. Amazing what can happen to a business over a span of only a few years.

And the full-scale casino located a few minutes away is still kicking ass...even though the blackjack tables there carry $25 minimums...raised to $50 on the weekends. :eek:

[illinoisbred]

drf.com/news/hawthorne-likely-cut-spring-stakes (http://) Most locals have probably seen this...or saw it coming.

[illinoisbred]

Sorry,my time ran out for editing. Should be -cut...not cuts for link to work.

[forced89]

Deleted

[no breathalyzer]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/hawthorne-illinois-derby-sixty-sails-likely-dropped-from-spring-schedule/


very sad... on top of this they are only racing 2 days a week this spring

[Stoleitbreezing]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/hawthorne-illinois-derby-sixty-sails-likely-dropped-from-spring-schedule/


very sad... on top of this they are only racing 2 days a week this spring

Very sad indeed. I'm a minority owner of a IL Bred with a partnership and this doesn't look good for us continuing to race in IL. Dropping the stakes program entirely is a bad idea and will not attract any good horses and won't improve handle. IL politics has the be the worst in the country so if someone is "waiting" for something to happen then it probably won't. Goodbye IL racing.....

[ultracapper]

Hawthorne is only racing two days a week? HAWTHORNE? To me, I would correlate that to Turfway running two days a week.

Wow.

[illinoisbred]

2 days per week for their 1st 4 weeks..then 3 day weeks. A grand total of just 20 racing days.

[thaskalos]

It is unfathomable to me that a city as large as Chicago will soon be left without access to any sort of race track. Unbelievable.

[ultracapper]

It is unfathomable to me that a city as large as Chicago will soon be left without access to any sort of race track. Unbelievable.

Not only the size of Chicago, but the nuances of the town also. Capone and the track. They go hand in hand.

[Delta Cone]

I grew up at Spt, Haw and AP... but Illinois racing is too far gone for me to even care anymore.

I will make my one or two trips to AP this summer, but I go there mainly to have fun with my friends. The racing product is garbage.

Even the slots won't be enough medicine to save IL racing; the patient is already dead.

[thaskalos]

I grew up at Spt, Haw and AP... but Illinois racing is too far gone for me to even care anymore.

I will make my one or two trips to AP this summer, but I go there mainly to have fun with my friends. The racing product is garbage.

Even the slots won't be enough medicine to save IL racing; the patient is already dead.

How can the slots save IL racing...when there are slots already installed in every bar and restaurant in the Chicago-area? Who needs to go to a Chicago-area racetrack to play slots?

[illinoisbred]

I hear ya Delta Cone. I left the Illinois racing product last July myself. I just think our days our numbered and nothing helpful(if it even would be a help) will be forthcoming from Springfield.

[no breathalyzer]

How can the slots save IL racing...when there are slots already installed in every bar and restaurant in the Chicago-area? Who needs to go to a Chicago-area racetrack to play slots?


yup.. even little hot dog joints have them... Slots are not gonna save racing.. its too late now.. ship has sailed

[Stoleitbreezing]

yup.. even little hot dog joints have them... Slots are not gonna save racing.. its too late now.. ship has sailed


Its because our fearless leaders in govt were too naive or corrupt to do anything in the first place. There is a reason they call it Crook County IL (Cook County).

[cj]

Hawthorne is only racing two days a week? HAWTHORNE? To me, I would correlate that to Turfway running two days a week.

Wow.

Also no Illiniois Derby in the spring.

[JohnGalt1]

I used to bet $300-400 per card on Illinois racing, and played often.

Then Hawthorne went to $.20 minimums on pick threes and other exotics which caused my handle to drop to $100-150 per card and I bet about 80% fewer cards

I never would've thought that my home track, Canterbury, would have higher purses than Hawthorne. And yes, I know the deal with Mystic Lake Casino is the reason for this, but it does seem strange.

[olddaddy]

Also no Illiniois Derby in the spring.


After taking it off the derby trail, might as well put it sleep.

[no breathalyzer]

I used to bet $300-400 per card on Illinois racing, and played often.

Then Hawthorne went to $.20 minimums on pick threes and other exotics which caused my handle to drop to $100-150 per card and I bet about 80% fewer cards

I never would've thought that my home track, Canterbury, would have higher purses than Hawthorne. And yes, I know the deal with Mystic Lake Casino is the reason for this, but it does seem strange.

yea no kidding... the canterbury shippers were out classed most the time they ran on the grass.. but every so often you could find a nice score..... now they don't even ship in...

[olddaddy]

Changing the racing surface from harness to flats makes no sense for 20 days of cheap racing.

[Valuist]

Very sad indeed. I'm a minority owner of a IL Bred with a partnership and this doesn't look good for us continuing to race in IL. Dropping the stakes program entirely is a bad idea and will not attract any good horses and won't improve handle. IL politics has the be the worst in the country so if someone is "waiting" for something to happen then it probably won't. Goodbye IL racing.....

My thoughts exactly. There once was a time, when Arlington was the premier track in the Midwest. And Sportsman's was fairly highly regarded, and Hawthorne in the fall had huge field sizes as the Nebraska and Minnesota horsemen often went there on their way to Oaklawn. I remember when I first started following Chicago racing in 1983 the purse for an open company NW1X was $22,000. What was it this past summer at AP? Just about $22,000. Now Arlington is relevant 1, maybe 2 days a year, Hawthorne slightly relevant one day, and Sportsmans has been dead and buried for years.

[mostpost]

We have been blessed with three wonderful governors lately; from the corrupt (Rod Blagovich), to the incompetent (Pat Quinn), to the heartless (Bruce Rauner. With the help of a clueless legislature they have damaged Illinois racing beyond repair. It's not Democrats; it's not Republicans; it's everyone. Other states figured it out but we can't.

[FrankieFigs]

After taking it off the derby trail, might as well put it sleep.

:ThmbUp:

The money could be better used elsewhere....

[BIG49010]

I was told this today about Arlington, WTF is Churchill doing to racing!

"The 2016 Arlington season will open missing a few race track amenities & features. Most notable will be no bugler or race caller. Dooley said " on all Saturdays & holidays they wanted me to dress as the mascot
and entertain the fans between races to justify my salary.":bang:

[illinoisbred]

I was told this today about Arlington, WTF is Churchill doing to racing!

"The 2016 Arlington season will open missing a few race track amenities & features. Most notable will be no bugler or race caller. Dooley said " on all Saturdays & holidays they wanted me to dress as the mascot
and entertain the fans between races to justify my salary.":bang:
Um....that is directly from a post on a Illinois racing forum. The post was meant to be humorous and the info false.

[BIG49010]

I hope your correct, it made me puke!

[illinoisbred]

Yes,it's false. Also included in the satirical post was a supposed statement by a member of the Arlington management that goes.."Look, it's not a tough job....most race have just 5 or 6 runners...anyone can call that." This is in reference to having celebrity racecallers and/or fans call the races. "It will be like the Cubs have...singing Take me Out to the Ballgame."

[Stoleitbreezing]

Has anyone read the below article? Does anyone know what this means for IL racing and for Hawthorne. The details of the deal such as the actual money received by Hawthorne are unknown. Is this too little too late for Hawthorne and IL racing?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/98283/hawthorne-derbywars-reach-agreement

[Delta Cone]

Has anyone read the below article? Does anyone know what this means for IL racing and for Hawthorne. The details of the deal such as the actual money received by Hawthorne are unknown. Is this too little too late for Hawthorne and IL racing?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/98283/hawthorne-derbywars-reach-agreement

The real kick in the seat here is that as an Illinois resident, I can't sign up or play at Derby Wars anyway. :lol:

[Stoleitbreezing]

I wasn't aware it was illegal to play DerbyWars in IL.

[betovernetcapper]

I was told this today about Arlington, WTF is Churchill doing to racing!

"The 2016 Arlington season will open missing a few race track amenities & features. Most notable will be no bugler or race caller. Dooley said " on all Saturdays & holidays they wanted me to dress as the mascot
and entertain the fans between races to justify my salary.":bang:

Every year for at least the last 20 AP has said they need certain days, slots, a casino or they would close and open a shopping mall. I truly hate this track and haven't bet it in years. :mad:

On the subject of Illinois racing, it's very interesting. You have a lot of state bred races and they require a certain viewpoint. Trainers are very important and ignore them at your peril. While the top riders win more than their share, the jockey colony still has some competent riders that can win with a live horse & not kill the price. The jockey colony also usually has about a 20% group that can be tossed no matter what they're riding. Oh unlike California, we have weather, rain, snow, winds, & as a consequence the bias can chance from day to day. Keeps you humble. :)

[no breathalyzer]

Every year for at least the last 20 AP has said they need certain days, slots, a casino or they would close and open a shopping mall. I truly hate this track and haven't bet it in years. :mad:

On the subject of Illinois racing, it's very interesting. You have a lot of state bred races and they require a certain viewpoint. Trainers are very important and ignore them at your peril. While the top riders win more than their share, the jockey colony still has some competent riders that can win with a live horse & not kill the price. The jockey colony also usually has about a 20% group that can be tossed no matter what they're riding. Oh unlike California, we have weather, rain, snow, winds, & as a consequence the bias can chance from day to day. Keeps you humble. :)


Smart people see and plan ahead.... its at the breaking point now

[illinoisbred]

Smart people see and plan ahead.... its at the breaking point now
..At the breaking point and ready to snap. I no longer play nor attend Arlington...a track I live a mere 20 miles away from. Really can't see any positive prospects in the upcoming AP meet. AP's reliance on the "extra races"...mostly cheaper claiming races on the turf...10,000 nw2 and cheaper older open claimers because they fill,leaves many trainers with good stock unable to plan a race schedule. They can enter a "quality" race in the book but if it doesn't fill,they are left with no option. Might as well stable better horses elsewhere,where they have a shot at actually running.

[betovernetcapper]

Screw them-you have 20 other tracks at your fingertips on your PC

They've created their own situation & if they fail- Thank You Jesus :)

[jasperson]

I have fond memories of the harness tracks in Chicago. When I was still in high school I was a groom at Maywood for the opening in 1946. In the 6o's I was at Milwaukee on the apollo program and attended sportsman, Hawthorn, Washington and aurora. Had fun at all of them. Now that I am int Texas I only play Hawthorn when they shift from AP.

[BIG49010]

Duchossois should have never sold to Churchill Downs, he has made tons of money I think by doing so, but his crowned jewel was ruined by a public company that doesn't care to be in the racetrack business.