Grand River Vet Mentions Bettors

[DeanT]

I found this a good quote from a vet at Grand River

“Essentially, you’re looking after the welfare of the horse, but in addition to that you’re also making sure the betting public is not betting on any lame horses, said Meyers, 59, who has been the track vet at Grand River Raceway since the track opened in 2003. Before that he was the vet at Elmira Raceway and Hanover Raceway going back to 1998.

Grand River lowered the take last season. Their handle was up about 10%. They're a track that tries and is worth a look, imo.

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=60950&zoneid=63

[lamboguy]

good info on the takeout, i didn''t know they went down.

[DeanT]

They dropped them quite a bit

http://grandriverraceway.com/takeout-rates/

[baconswitchfarm]

They dropped them quite a bit

http://grandriverraceway.com/takeout-rates/



If they are 1% accross the board the track will still be unbettable with the fair start rule. It has destroyed every b track in Canada.

[DeanT]

I think that's a tad over the top :)

Handle at the B tracks on the Ontario circuit are up and doing quite well. 200 feet has not killed them :)

[baconswitchfarm]

I think that's a tad over the top :)

Handle at the B tracks on the Ontario circuit are up and doing quite well. 200 feet has not killed them :)



When they put in the fair start rule Flamboro had 10k in every exacta and triple. Now they have moved up to 3k from their low of 2500 and call it progress. Try betting roulette and then when the wheel stops we will take off some of the numbers and change all the odds. See how many big bettors would play.

[DeanT]

When they put in the fair start rule Flamboro had 10k in every exacta and triple. Now they have moved up to 3k from their low of 2500 and call it progress. Try betting roulette and then when the wheel stops we will take off some of the numbers and change all the odds. See how many big bettors would play.
Flamboros issues are Flamboros issues. Mostly Great Canadian Gaming related (their satellite track has done poorly).

There aren't enough fair start miscues for it to be an issue, quite frankly, unless you have a bee in a bonnet.

Most people like the fair start rule in Canada. And have lobbied it to come to the US. With Woodbine handle up 25% with that fair start rule and few customer complaints, it might come.

[Robert Goren]

They need to have a lot larger increase in handle than 10% in order to break even with those kind of decreases in takeout. Maybe they get there in the long run if they can stay in business that long. This is not good news for those of us who have been touting for decreases in takeout. We have to show that tracks and horsemen will have more money if they cut takeout rates. And the results have to be immediate. If we can't, our case is lost.

[baconswitchfarm]

Half of the b tracks in Canada have closed in the last five years. The half that remain do not handle enough on their live product to fund 2 races a day in purses. If that is what you consider doing well then I won't argue. No one who bets over $2 a race can play the tracks because of the fair start rule. If forcing your biggest customers not to play is good business , well ok. The rule has made woodbine the only viable track in an entire country.

They tried to bring the fair start rule to New Jersey. It looked like a slam dunk because of the presses love of it . Of course none of them bet 5 cents. Then the tracks contacted all large players and it was immediately shot down.


The only bee in my bonnet is that I used to bet six figures each year at Rideau, Flamboro, Georgian, Kawartha, Western Fair, and Windsor. Now I am forced to bet 0.

[lamboguy]

They need to have a lot larger increase in handle than 10% in order to break even with those kind of decreases in takeout. Maybe they get there in the long run if they can stay in business that long. This is not good news for those of us who have been touting for decreases in takeout. We have to show that tracks and horsemen will have more money if they cut takeout rates. And the results have to be immediate. If we can't, our case is lost.the reduction in takeout doesn't mean a damn thing to what they take in. 90% of their handle is from rebate player's, the rebates now get lowered to those player's. if they don't lose the rebate business, the non- rebate business will pick up and they will make more from the takeout.

its a pretty smart move for them to lower, it can't hurt them unsless the rebate players stop playing

[DeanT]

They need to have a lot larger increase in handle than 10% in order to break even with those kind of decreases in takeout. Maybe they get there in the long run if they can stay in business that long. This is not good news for those of us who have been touting for decreases in takeout. We have to show that tracks and horsemen will have more money if they cut takeout rates. And the results have to be immediate. If we can't, our case is lost.

Because they have a five year reprieve on losing slots, they are taking a longer term view.

Dates have been cut, tracks have closed, and there's scheduling going on through a central office. Rome wasn't built in a day, kinda stuff.

So far the reviews are good. Some tracks, who did $40,000 handle a day and gave out double that in purses, have shut down. Their dates have shifted to other tracks who care about handle and the sport.

Average mutuels per race are up - including the small tracks. "Alliance Tracks" - most of them B tracks - had an 8% increase, and GRR had an increase of 16% per race. Data here: http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/8-14-14/handle-increase-alliance-racetracks.html

Small tracks like Western Fair have had a resurgence. Two years ago handles were about $100,000 a card during the fall,m except for Monday's. Their highest handle would not break $250,000. This year they've had cards that had over $500,000 handle, which is closer to the Monticello's of the racing world.

So no, they aren't "paying for purses" yet, but in the past, with 17 tracks, some of them doing zero handle and not being anything but a receptacle for slots cash to dole out, actually are trying and increasing handles measurably from 2010 (the last full year with slots and a full racing program in the Province).

Takeout decreases, and the like, should not be looked at as a snapshot, but a five to ten year plan to grow the sport, or at the very least keep it sustainable, and it's nice to see the new deal allows them to take a shot and try and get that done over time.

[Sea Biscuit]

If they are 1% accross the board the track will still be unbettable with the fair start rule. It has destroyed every b track in Canada.

Bacon Can you elaborate why the fair start rule irks you so much?

[lamboguy]

London made a deal with TVG to show many of their races. it cost money and they paid it. i don't know if they can ever bring back the handle that those tracks did years ago, i do know its not that hard to improve from their bottom levels. someday there will be someone that figures out how to take the cheating out of the game and they will once again do solid handles.

[baconswitchfarm]

Bacon Can you elaborate why the fair start rule irks you so much?



Pick out any race you want tonight at flamboro. Post here 400-600 in bets covering win, exacta, triples, and supers before the race. After the race I will inform you which horses actually raced and how much ( possibly 80% ) of the pools are gone. After betting races in which you are left with sometimes 25% or more of the remaining money, thus guarenteeing you a loss, you will quickly learn to not play. The same as every large bettor in north America. I can live with a recall. I can live with no contest. I can not play when more than half the pool can be returned at anytime, but only to be determined after the running of the race. When we explained it in new Jersey it was quickly squashed because it is detrimental to anyone betting any large amounts.

[DeanT]

There's been one refunded horse in September at Flamboro for not having a fair start in September. About ten cards.

The horse was a gazillion miles behind and woulda been a refund at any track in North America.

Can check all the results at SC.

http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/results#?/results/list/FLMD/ALL

Surprised how good Flammy is doing actually. $200k a card is not bad for those rakes, and rebated bettors feasting on other rebated bettors looking for ROI scraps.

[Sea Biscuit]

Pick out any race you want tonight at flamboro. Post here 400-600 in bets covering win, exacta, triples, and supers before the race. After the race I will inform you which horses actually raced and how much ( possibly 80% ) of the pools are gone. After betting races in which you are left with sometimes 25% or more of the remaining money, thus guarenteeing you a loss, you will quickly learn to not play. The same as every large bettor in north America. I can live with a recall. I can live with no contest. I can not play when more than half the pool can be returned at anytime, but only to be determined after the running of the race. When we explained it in new Jersey it was quickly squashed because it is detrimental to anyone betting any large amounts.

Suppose you are at the track. You bet $400-600 on Horse A keying him in the exactas and tris with a sizeable win bet. When you are walking back to your seat you see that Horse A is far far behind the field on a break and the starting gate is about to fold. Wouldn't you be sick at the thought that you just lost 400-600 even before the race has started. It really is a very sick feeling and this scenario has happened to me many times in the past when there was no ADW betting and no fair start rule.

On the other hand if you get a full refund on your horse I am sure you will be all smiles.

In my humble opinion the advantages of a fair start rule far out weigh the negatives.

[lamboguy]

they have to do fair start. otherwise the bell players will make a joke of this game.

[baconswitchfarm]

There's been one refunded horse in September at Flamboro for not having a fair start in September. About ten cards.

The horse was a gazillion miles behind and woulda been a refund at any track in North America.

Can check all the results at SC.

http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/results#?/results/list/FLMD/ALL

Surprised how good Flammy is doing actually. $200k a card is not bad for those rakes, and rebated bettors feasting on other rebated bettors looking for ROI scraps.


There were 4 yesterday just at grand river. 33% of the races, thousands were removed after the race finished. I understand people are going to disagree. In five more years it wont be an issue for any of the b tracks.

[DeanT]

With two year old trots when only 3 dont make it within 200 feet behind the starter, I call that a good day LOL