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mike
01-05-2002, 01:47 AM
ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT THE SOFTWARE HTRF 65?

anotherdave
01-05-2002, 06:16 PM
I use HTRF. I quite like it. Major flaw - lack of adjustments for track to track. But when my horses all have run at the same track, it gets some nice results. I especially like the odds line in that situation.

GR1@HTR
01-05-2002, 06:28 PM
Even if you use a bris data file...does it not have track to track adjustments in it?

anotherdave
01-05-2002, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by GR1
Even if you use a bris data file...does it not have track to track adjustments in it?

When it works out times (and AP, EP, etc.) you can choose whether to include the BRIS track variant to somewhat deal with the day-to-day variations of the same racetrack, but if you have a horse from Aqueduct and a horse from Turf Paradise (for example), it treats 112.0 at Aqueduct the same as 112.0 from turf Paradise.

They did try to incorporate Dave Schwartz's par times in it last year, but there was some problem that wouldn't allow it to be done. I don't remember why.

I still like the program - especially the odds line, but it would be nice to deal with the track to track adjustments even if it had an option to do it manually it would be nice.

Dave Schwartz
01-05-2002, 09:01 PM
AnotherDave,

We have not yet made a formal announcement, but we will be producing par times this year.

Hopefully we will be able to produce a file that is compatible with HTRF.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Tom
01-05-2002, 10:42 PM
Glad to hear pars are not a dead issue.
Word of advice, don't Let Frank Stronach in on the project....he will want pars only for Magna Tracks! ~G~

Tom

Dave Schwartz
01-05-2002, 11:49 PM
Tom,

Stranger things have happened. <G>

Dave

anotherdave
01-06-2002, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
AnotherDave,

We have not yet made a formal announcement, but we will be producing par times this year.

Hopefully we will be able to produce a file that is compatible with HTRF.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Dave,

Just wondering. Do you plan to sell the pars through Horsestreet or through Cynthia like last year?

anotherdave

Slider
01-06-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by mike
ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT THE SOFTWARE HTRF 65?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I used the registered version of this program for over a year. It is a good program. I used the form and pars at the end of the program. You need to activate this portion. Whenever the horses form number is over the par number they do very well. HTRF is an excellent companion program IMO and an excellent value.

HTRFGuy
01-06-2002, 08:33 AM
As Dave Schwartz indicates, the utilitzation of
track to track par times is once more a
distinct possibility with HTRF. I have been
in touch with Dave. I do have a version of
HTRF (Release 7.0) which will use Dave's track
to track par files.

HTRF users will need to subscribe to the
track par files through Dave as well as
upgrade their HTRF files to Release 7.0.

Dave Schwartz
01-06-2002, 12:34 PM
Regarding HorseStreet Pars:

We have gotten permission from HDW to produce and distribute par times. They are in production as I write this and should be ready before the end of January.

We will market the pars ourselves. Check our website for pricing, product description, file formats and availability in the next copuple of weeks.

This is our first year of making pars with HDW data. I have to tell you that it is the easiest set of par times I have ever built. The data is unbelievably clean. Those guys should be commended.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

pasco
01-10-2002, 08:41 AM
I hear that a new revised program HTRF71 will be out

in the near future and will have that track to track adjustments

Heres hoping. pasco Its a good program that will get better

anotherdave
01-10-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by pasco
I hear that a new revised program HTRF71 will be out

in the near future and will have that track to track adjustments

Heres hoping. pasco Its a good program that will get better
That sounds good. I'll be one of the first in line. I hope the adjustments are self-contained - I don't have to purchase them from somewhere else (nothing personal Dave Schwartz!). Also the
adjustments cover discrepancies between times at the same track at different distances - when adjusting for distance one horse ran at 6f the other at 6.5 and they are both adjusted to 6.5 it is a different adjustment depending on the track.

That may be too much too wish for, but I'll be mostly pleased with self-contained track to track adjustments!

Dave Schwartz
01-10-2002, 01:52 PM
TheOtherDave,

Just spoke with Jim and we'll have a file working to test later today. It should be available to end users in just a few days.

We will be the ones vending the files along with the future updates.

Dave

Zaf
10-01-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by anotherdave
I use HTRF. I quite like it. Major flaw - lack of adjustments for track to track. But when my horses all have run at the same track, it gets some nice results. I especially like the odds line in that situation.
\

Hey Dave,

When you use HTRF, do you use the variant option.

For BRIS files, does the program use the DRF Variant or a BRIS Variant.

Thanks,

ZAFONIC

anotherdave
10-01-2002, 10:35 PM
Lately I have been turning off the variant, but going a little further back to insure that I get a representative line for the horse. I have been meaning to do a little study of that, but haven't yet. Turning it off seems to work better for my local track. I believe it is the BRIS variant. And I think version 7.1 adjusts for the variant more than the other ones (6.7,6.5, etc) - I would like to choose 1/2, 1/4, full variant, but it isn't there, just on or off.,

AD

Zaf
10-01-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by anotherdave
Lately I have been turning off the variant, but going a little further back to insure that I get a representative line for the horse. I have been meaning to do a little study of that, but haven't yet. Turning it off seems to work better for my local track. I believe it is the BRIS variant. And I think version 7.1 adjusts for the variant more than the other ones (6.7,6.5, etc) - I would like to choose 1/2, 1/4, full variant, but it isn't there, just on or off.,

AD


Thanks I am new to the program and wanted to get some input. It seems to have a lot to offer. I noticed there are versions with Bris, TSN & ITS files. Do you find that it works better with one particular type of file (bris, tsn, its) ???

Thanks

ZAFONIC

anotherdave
10-01-2002, 11:00 PM
I have only used BRIS and TSN and I have been using BRIS the last while because of the new past performance software. I don't really have a preference except when I want to use the variant. The TSN file doesn't have the variant, so if you want to use a variant, you have to use BRIS instead.

AD

Zaf
10-02-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by anotherdave
I have only used BRIS and TSN and I have been using BRIS the last while because of the new past performance software. I don't really have a preference except when I want to use the variant. The TSN file doesn't have the variant, so if you want to use a variant, you have to use BRIS instead.

AD


Thanks Dave,

I like the new bris software also. I'll try the program with the Bris Files. I'll let you know how its working out. Thanks for the info.

ZAFONIC

ridersup
10-06-2002, 08:41 AM
Dave:

Checked your site showing par times example and it appears only final times are shown. Is this the format you are now using.

Are your par times available in hard copy form similar to the one I purchased from Cynthia?

Lefty
10-06-2002, 12:16 PM
Anotherdave, I never did understand this half, qtr variant bus. Whether you use full variant or any portion of it the rankings are the same are they not?

anotherdave
10-06-2002, 12:39 PM
The adjustment based on the variant something like:

say 16 is a par. If the daily variant was 18, then a full adjustment would be to subtract 2/5 of a second (assuming each point was a fifth of a second). Now sometimes people only do half of the difference - in the case given 1/5 second (or half the variant). The half adjustment is a Sartin standard, I believe. I'm not sure what adjustment is used on the different versions of HTRF (check with Jim Ott who runs the site, he's always been great at answering questions for me), but I believe the newest one might use a full adjustment. Personally I do my own daily track variants and incorporate them into the figures, ignoring the BRIS variant adjustmentthat is available with HTRF.

HTRF does have pars that can be purchased seperately from HorseStreet, I believe.

AD

ridersup
10-06-2002, 05:48 PM
Anotherdave:

Where are you folks finding a daily variant in the Bris files? I downloaded their new program but I didn't find any indication of a variant in the Bris info. I realize their pace ratings are adjusted for a variant but have never seen one in their data relative to actual running times.

Appreciate any help you can give in this area.

HTRFGuy
10-06-2002, 06:06 PM
In the HTRF software, the Daily Variant is the DRF variant. As one poster indicated, there is no BRIS variant included in the BRIS/DRF comma delimited file.

The TSN comma delimited files have NO VARIANT whatsoever.

You may elect to use/or not use, the Daily Variant in your handicapping.

The question of using a 'portion' of the variant was raised. All versions of HTRF use the full variant at this time.

Users of Release 7.1 which uses the track to track pars from Horsestreet, will find that all past performance variants are normalized to the 'average' variant for the subject track.
That is, any 'adjustment in time with a variant of 25 at a track where the average variant is 20 is the same as the adjustment in time for a variant of 20 at a track where the average variant is 15.

There is no 'average' track variant for turf races. For turf racing, all past performance variants are normalized to a variant of 15. For those of you who DO NOT use the track pars, dirt races as well are normalized to a variant of 15.

ridersup
10-07-2002, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I guess the DRF variant is better than nothing but I was hoping someone would put out a daily variant as I am breaking my hump trying to convert Beyer speed ratings into a daily variant.

HTRFGuy
10-07-2002, 10:16 AM
Dear ridersup,

I am at sea how one would 'backout' the daily variant from the Beyer speed figure!

I concur with your statement that the DRF variant is better than nothing but we all recognize that it has inherent limitations. While there are separate variants for turf and dirt, what one would really like to see separate variants for sprints and routes as well.

Then, we also need to make a 'correction' for races run at any track on Saturday versus Tuesday!!

HTRFGuy
10-07-2002, 10:27 AM
anotherDave,

Your earlier post mentioned a 'partial' variant being employed in HTRF. You have a good memory, we did use 1/2 the "correction' of raw times based upon the Daily track variant several years ago in an earlier version of HTRF. This practice was discontinued in Version 6.5 when I switched to using the 'full' variant.

I am much more comfortable with this especially when using the track pars and 'average' variants from the Horsestreet par files.

Big Bill
10-07-2002, 11:24 AM
HTRFGuy

Hi Jim,

You wrote:

"I am at sea how one would 'backout' the daily variant from the Beyer speed figure!"

On pages 134 and 135 of Andy's book, Beyer on Speed, he explains how one can obtain the daily track variant from his speed ratings.

Big Bill

cj
10-07-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Big Bill

On pages 134 and 135 of Andy's book, Beyer on Speed, he explains how one can obtain the daily track variant from his speed ratings.

Big Bill

As someone who gets the Simulcast Weekly, it is anything but a "Daily" track variant, more like a "race" track variant. Just a word of warning.

CJ

cj
10-07-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by HTRFGuy
Dear ridersup,

...While there are separate variants for turf and dirt, what one would really like to see separate variants for sprints and routes as well...



What am I missing here...there are separate DRF variants for sprints and routes and have been for years to the best of my knowledge.

CJ

Big Bill
10-07-2002, 11:42 AM
CJ

Loved the photo of the B-2 on your post. Were you or are you affiliated with that aircraft? I was with the B-1.

Big Bill

HTRFGuy
10-07-2002, 12:19 PM
CJ Posted...

What am I missing here...there are separate DRF variants for sprints and routes and have been for years to the best of my knowledge.

CJ

Of course you are correct. I don't know where my head was this AM when I posted this. The DRF Daily Variant is both a function of surface and distance (sprint or route)

In the Horsestreet track par files, there is also a separate 'average' track variant for sprints and routes.

ridersup
10-07-2002, 06:14 PM
CJ

I have read the pages you referred to in Beyer on speed but I don't think they tell the whole story.

Although the beaten lengths chart can be applied to all tracks his 1 turn and 2 turn charts showing beyer ratings for specific times is track specific. In other words I believe you have to have 1 and 2 turn charts for each track you are studying. As an example a 5 furlong time of :58 would be par for a 13k claimer at Churchill Downs while the same :58 would be par for a NW 3 Alw at Arlington Park so I don't belive you could assign the same Beyer for each track based on a 5 f :58.

I believe each track has its own "Beyer 1 turn and 2 turn charts" and if you had this info you could easily convert the Beyer into a daily variant.

Been wrestling with this problem for several years but to date have found no easy answer to having sound variants while playing multiple tracks in this day of simulcasting.

If I am reading Beyers book wrong I would appreciate a push in the right direction.

cj
10-07-2002, 06:25 PM
ridersup,

For the record, I didn't post those pages.

However, I do quite a bit of work along the lines discussed here, and can hopefully fill you in. All tracks essentially use the same charts, but the correlation between 1 and 2 turn races is different for each track. NOt really different charts, but an adjustment to the whole 2 turn chart such as +4/5s.

Also, many tracks have unique adjustments within the 1 and 2 turn structures. For example, Pimlico sprints use the chart for 4.5, 5, and 5.5f races, but for 6f races, you have to deduct approximately 3/5s second due to a very short runup making final times appear slower.

Also, CD races at 6.5, 7, and 7.5f run about 2/5s slower than the chart, although I don't know the reason. Many other examples out there as well.

CJ

ridersup
10-08-2002, 07:10 AM
CJ

Going back and reading your post I did note that you were quoting someone else. Sorry for that error.

Thanks for the clarification on the charts but again the secret for unlocking the time = beyer number for specific tracks still remains with all the adjusments necessary. I personally have no way of determining that adjustment.

I do however use a very cumbersome method of assigning a beyer number to a complete par time chart for a track and use that as the basis of my adjustments. Lot of work but it has been worth the effort.

What would be nice is a set of par time charts for all the tracks that also includes the Beyer number for the times shown. Someone could make a buck or two if they came up with that type of chart.

Thanks again.

Dick Schmidt
10-08-2002, 06:09 PM
Rider,


What would be nice is a set of par time charts for all the tracks that also includes the Beyer number for the times shown. Someone could make a buck or two if they came up with that type of chart.


Someone could get their butt sued off if they came up with that type of chart. The Beyer copyright is about all that is keeping the Racing Form in business.

Dick

Tom
10-08-2002, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by ridersup
CJ


What would be nice is a set of par time charts for all the tracks that also includes the Beyer number for the times shown. Someone could make a buck or two if they came up with that type of chart.

Thanks again.

What I do is to assign a 80 Beyer and a 100 Quirin number to the 10K par time for each distance. Then, I convert the Beyer to a quirin number (80=100 is the basis). I use the applicable par chart for whatever track I am using and assign the raw race times whatever quirin number they should be. Sounds complicaed, but I have the whole thing written into Excel and I just have to enter the Sim Weekly race Beyers into the right column, then presto! Daily variants, adjusted pace and speed figures just a "drag" away.
Now, every so often, I sort the spreadsheet by class and re-calculate the pars for that track - piece of cake, as long I don't go overboard trying to do too many tracks.
Nice thing is that you sometimes find "Beyer-errors" that you can capitalize on, or sometimes crash on burn on<G>

ridersup
10-09-2002, 09:58 AM
Dick:

Didn't think about the legal ramifications of such a chart but Im wondering how the many comparisons of Beyer figs to other figures are published.

Was reading an article this morning by Steve Roman comparing Beyer Speed figures to Performance Ratings, Timeform Ratings, and Bris Ratings. His object was to show how to equalize those numbers. Perhaps he got a license to do so but there are so many other articles on comparison of Beyers to other numbers I doubt that all the authors got such a license.

cj
10-09-2002, 04:03 PM
Here is what I use, I don't think there are any legal issues regarding it, but I'll let PA be the judge.

CJ

Big Bill
10-09-2002, 05:17 PM
Ridersup

Was the Steve Roman article you mentioned in your post one that can be pulled up on the Internet?

Big Bill

cj
10-09-2002, 05:37 PM
Bill,

I posted it a while back on this site.

Here is the link:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3036

CJ

cj
10-09-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Big Bill
CJ

Loved the photo of the B-2 on your post. Were you or are you affiliated with that aircraft? I was with the B-1.

Big Bill

Bill,

No, actually I'm a computer network guy. But as we are fond of saying, "No Comm, NO Bomb" :)

CJ

ridersup
10-09-2002, 08:30 PM
CJ

Thanks loads for the chart. I'm sure I'll get good use out of it.

cj
10-11-2002, 02:58 PM
Ridersup,

No problem. If anyone has any questions about it ask here or feel free to drop me a line.

CJ

Dave Schwartz
10-11-2002, 05:11 PM
CJ,

Do you use HTRF?

Dave

cj
10-11-2002, 05:28 PM
Dave,

I do not use any software other than my homegrown type. Why do you ask?

CJ

Dave Schwartz
10-11-2002, 06:12 PM
CJ,

Well, I know you had our pars, but I could not remember if you had the electronic, importable, ones for HTRF.

Do you need something importable? If so, let me know. (Of course, if I already sent them, never mind. My mind is obviously going. <G>)

Dave

Speed Figure
10-11-2002, 08:20 PM
Dave,

why did you guys change the class ratings on the pars with those 2265 & 4290 numbers the Quirin numbers were much better than those new ratings.

maybe that's your way of making the pars look different? go back to the Quirin numbers.:mad:

Dave Schwartz
10-11-2002, 11:05 PM
Speed Figure,

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have changed nothing.


Dave

Speed Figure
10-11-2002, 11:47 PM
O.K. dave i have the 2001 pars and the santa anita Nw1 par is 106 but in the 2002 pars the Nw1 level is 400 maybe cynthia publishing were the one's that made those weak numbers.sorry about that, looks like i will be getting my pars from you for next year.:cool:

Dave Schwartz
10-12-2002, 05:20 AM
Speed Figure,

Yes, apparently a number of people purchased Cynthia Pars this year and thought I made them. One customer called and said that Dave Powers' catalog said I made the Cynthia Pars! Obviously, an oversight on his part.

Oh well. not long to wait.

Dave

Ignatius
10-13-2002, 04:18 PM
Speed figure:
I'm guessing youre a novice...C10,000 is equal to 100; each level up or down is 1 point difference, in accordance with the final time. It's not so hard as to rely on Schwartz is it. I didn't realize he was such the genius. <g>

Dave:
My understanding is that more than a few were quite happy it wasn't Dave Schwartz who produced Cynthia's pars this year. <g><g>

Oh well.



Ignatius

Speed Figure
10-13-2002, 04:35 PM
I know that the $10,000 level is 100.i know all the levels i just hate that i have to go back to my 2001 pars to make my figures.

I don't use those numbers anyway i make my own numbers like the beyer figures so i can see when the the beyer is hype and when it's real.

And no i'm no novice!:rolleyes:

Dave Schwartz
10-13-2002, 08:51 PM
Ignataius,

That may well be true, but then only someone who worked for Cynthia would know that.


Dave Schwartz

Speed Figure
10-13-2002, 09:49 PM
If the BC Classic was today this is what my homegrown software Walker Pace & Speed Ratings look like.

#1 Burning Roma 112/104

#2 Came Home 116/110

#3 Dollar Bill 88/103

#4 E Dubai 100/107

#5 Evening Attire 118/108

#6 Harlan's Holiday 118/104

#7 Macho Uno 94/104

#8 Medaglia d'Oro 110/112

#9 Milwaukee Brew 108/108

#10 Momentum 112/110

#11 War Emblem 110/108

#12 Pleasantly Prefect 110/112

ridersup
10-14-2002, 09:03 AM
Ignatius

Haven't read any of your other posts but in the first one I see you call one fellow poster a novice and take a shot at another posters ability.

Count me among those that feel unhappy about the fact that Cynthia didn't elect to use Dave's pars for 2002. I am a very satisfied user of his work and am delighted that he takes the time to enlighten the members of this board.

When Dave speaks "people listen".

Ignatius
10-14-2002, 10:57 AM
What did I say? Dave IS a genius. <g> By his logic, Dick Schmidt is on the Schwartz payroll, and any customers who talk with the people who run a company, or even its fellow customers, are similarly employed. Bravo. And I thought Martha Stewart and imclone were an isolated incident. I hate when I'm wrong. I get so defensive!

Dave Schwartz
10-14-2002, 12:09 PM
Ignatius,

Your post made no sense to me.

Generally, I am smart enough to discern the difference between a compliment and an insult. (Not that it matters, but I am leaning towards insult here. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.)



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

JimG
10-14-2002, 12:13 PM
Dave,

From where I sit, I would bet your leanings toward and insult are correct. Who knows why?

Jim

Speed Figure
10-14-2002, 07:06 PM
Has anyone used the PDS Thoroughbred Software.

Tom
10-14-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Ignatius,

Your post made no sense to me.

Generally, I am smart enough to discern the difference between a compliment and an insult. (Not that it matters, but I am leaning towards insult here. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.)

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Dave, check out Ignatius's posts on 5/17, 6/17, 8/11, 10/13, and 10/14 if you need to confirm your suspicions. All posts that are negative in nature and about you or HSH. 5 out of 9 posts are about YOU!
Yahoo! ~G~

Dave Schwartz
10-14-2002, 08:25 PM
Tom,

Well, yes. I had noticed that. Do you suppose there is an agenda here?

I have a good idea who Iggy is... and he is not a former customer of mine. My guess is that he is closely connected to a competitor. (In fact, I suggested that to PA when Ignatius made his first post some time ago. Writing style was the key.)

I am just pleased that his efforts were so transparent.

I'll not waste any more time on it.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Myhorse1_X
10-25-2002, 11:13 AM
Dave Schwartz:

What is your website address. I am interested in your program called "Handicappers Notebook"
If you wish, just contact me at: rsemery@cox.net
Thanks.

MyHorse1

JimG
10-25-2002, 12:12 PM
I'm not Dave but I'll oblige your request. Dave's website is

www.horsestreet.com



Jim