I'm An Andy Serling Fan But..

[Tara73]

I want to say that I'm a Andy Serling fan and the in house broadcast is the best in the industry. It was recently posted here that Andy wasn't as sharp handicapping this meet. Someone presumed that Andy had too much going on with his radio show, his Fox show and all his other pursuits and responsibilities. We just can't assume this was case and I didn't believe it. But the last few weeks of the meet Andy seemed lost. Constantly mentioning to Mike Beer that he missed something after Mike bought up an obvious point. I really started to wonder about Andy and was he actually watching the races anymore? When he said that Banana Thief did no running in his last race and was a bad favorite I really started to wonder. Banana Thief was never comfortable in that race and it wasn't an easy trip as applied by Andy. Anyone watching the head on of that race would have made that determination. I know that Andy is well liked on this message board and I'll probably come under attack for posting my opinion. I just feel It had to be said.

[jk3521]

He did pick the winner of the last race of the last race of the meet for a nice fat mutual ( 28.60 ]. I like listening to his input on the races, maybe he seems to look too often for excuses of bad trips for poor performances in past races. Lots of times horses have bad trips and still win. I like the way he handicapped the connections more this past Saratoga meet. That's why they show up at the Spa. To make a hit on the big stage.

[Zydeco]

I want to say that I'm a Andy Serling fan and the in house broadcast is the best in the industry. It was recently posted here that Andy wasn't as sharp handicapping this meet. Someone presumed that Andy had too much going on with his radio show, his Fox show and all his other pursuits and responsibilities. We just can't assume this was case and I didn't believe it. But the last few weeks of the meet Andy seemed lost. Constantly mentioning to Mike Beer that he missed something after Mike bought up an obvious point. I really started to wonder about Andy and was he actually watching the races anymore? When he said that Banana Thief did no running in his last race and was a bad favorite I really started to wonder. Banana Thief was never comfortable in that race and it wasn't an easy trip as applied by Andy. Anyone watching the head on of that race would have made that determination. I know that Andy is well liked on this message board and I'll probably come under attack for posting my opinion. I just feel It had to be said.

Ok I'm a newbie at this but i will respond....you said.."Banana Thief was never comfortable in that race and it wasn't an easy trip" Andy said "Banana Thief did no running in his last race and was a bad favorite" Looks like the same conclusion just different words. (Ducking for cover!!) :lol:

[Tara73]

Ok I'm a newbie at this but i will respond....you said.."Banana Thief was never comfortable in that race and it wasn't an easy trip" Andy said "Banana Thief did no running in his last race and was a bad favorite" Looks like the same conclusion just different words. (Ducking for cover!!) :lol:

Banana Thief was never comfortable due to his positioning in the race and was not aggressively ridden the last furlong. The quick turnaround confirmed that the race was a complete throw out. Andy knocked the performance while I dismissed the race. Big difference newbie.

[alydar]

You know, I read this kind of crap and ask myself why does anyone post this? Look Serling and others in his line of work are there to give players some insights into the race. That is it, take it or leave it. If you are not satisfied or do not like for some other reason, don't listen. At the end of the day, hopefully you are making up your on mind on how to wager.

Bottom line is that what he and NYRA offers is better than most others out there. I am not sure what you want and what is your motivation for posts like this.

[Zydeco]

Banana Thief was never comfortable due to his positioning in the race and was not aggressively ridden the last furlong. The quick turnaround confirmed that the race was a complete throw out. Andy knocked the performance while I dismissed the race. Big difference newbie.

Thank you for explaining the difference between knocking the performance and dismissing the race to this newbie. (Help, Ralph?? :lol: )

[the little guy]

I was soooooooo busy with the FOX shows that the day of the last one I only picked seven winners.

Sorry if I occasionally admit to missing something. I'll try to be less honest going forward, and then maybe I can be right about every race like everyone else.

[JustRalph]

Thank you for explaining the difference between knocking the performance and dismissing the race to this newbie. (Help, Ralph?? :lol: )

Wow! Tough room :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

I know that Andy is well liked on this message boardWith threads like this, you had me fooled.

and I'll probably come under attack for posting my opinion.What an odd thought to have...

I just feel It had to be said.An even odder thought... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Andy is without a doubt one of the best, if not the best on-air handicapper covering the game today (I don't watch them all, so I can't say for absolute certain he's the very best...but I'd feel comfortable making that wager...just keeping it real). That's it in a nutshell.

Nobody displays more passion, nobody works harder at the craft, and nobody gives out as much solid handicapping opinions as Andy. That's all there is to it. Even his haters know this deep down in their cold little heart of hearts (and I despise the term "hater," but in this particular instance, it fits perfectly). That's why when they desperately try and come up with something negative about him, they look so downright foolish doing it...and they know they're being ridiculous, but they just can't help themselves...for one reason or another, they're haters, and always will be.

But nobody can deny the little guy knows his stuff...inside and out...end of story.

[thespaah]

I want to say that I'm a Andy Serling fan and the in house broadcast is the best in the industry. It was recently posted here that Andy wasn't as sharp handicapping this meet. Someone presumed that Andy had too much going on with his radio show, his Fox show and all his other pursuits and responsibilities. We just can't assume this was case and I didn't believe it. But the last few weeks of the meet Andy seemed lost. Constantly mentioning to Mike Beer that he missed something after Mike bought up an obvious point. I really started to wonder about Andy and was he actually watching the races anymore? When he said that Banana Thief did no running in his last race and was a bad favorite I really started to wonder. Banana Thief was never comfortable in that race and it wasn't an easy trip as applied by Andy. Anyone watching the head on of that race would have made that determination. I know that Andy is well liked on this message board and I'll probably come under attack for posting my opinion. I just feel It had to be said.
What is your point?
TLG does an outstanding job.
Tell ya what..Find us a public handicapper with a better than average insight and ability to analyze a myriad of different factors then in the span of a few minutes( allowed for each race on the card) than TLG and you get a gold star.
Better yet, do your OWN research, ignore the public handicappers and have at it.
This is not a flame. Merely a counterpoint.
Good day to you.

[thespaah]

Andy is without a doubt one of the best, if not the best on-air handicapper covering the game today (I don't watch them all, so I can't say for absolute certain he's the very best...but I'd feel comfortable making that wager...just keeping it real). That's it in a nutshell.

Nobody displays more passion, nobody works harder at the craft, and nobody gives out as much solid handicapping opinions as Andy. That's all there is to it. Even his haters know this deep down in their cold little heart of hearts (and I despise the term "hater," but in this particular instance, it fits perfectly). That's why when they desperately try and come up with something negative about him, they look so downright foolish doing it...and they know they're being ridiculous, but they just can't help themselves...for one reason or another, they're haters, and always will be.

But nobody can deny the little guy knows his stuff...inside and out...end of story.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[DeoVolente]

Here's some food for thought.

Andy is at the track everyday and puts in all this work. It's possible no other human being puts in more hours handicapping and watching races. Two thoughts come to mind.

1-Perhaps Andy should be doing better considering the effort.

2-If Andy can't do better, what does it say about the chances of the average horse player who can't be at the track everyday and who can't dedicate all those hours to handicapping.

[LottaKash]

I'll try to be less honest going forward, and then maybe I can be right about every race like everyone else.

Except for me, I always miss one or two...:cool:

[PhantomOnTour]

Andy and I aren't exactly pals, but I respect his job and all that he does for our game.

[thaskalos]

There might not be a more thankless job than that of a track handicapper. You are only as good as your last batch of picks...and every once-a-week hobbyist thinks that he is better at the craft than YOU are.

If everyone played this game on an everyday basis...then there would be new respect out there for the public handicapper. It's easy to lie to yourself about your handicapping ability, when you are playing this game as a lark.

[Thebigguy]

Banana Thief was never comfortable due to his positioning in the race and was not aggressively ridden the last furlong. The quick turnaround confirmed that the race was a complete throw out. Andy knocked the performance while I dismissed the race. Big difference newbie.


Banana Thief IMO on paper looked like shit. I think your just using 1 example to make yourself look good with the overall point your trying to make.

[Thebigguy]

You know, I read this kind of crap and ask myself why does anyone post this? Look Serling and others in his line of work are there to give players some insights into the race. That is it, take it or leave it. If you are not satisfied or do not like for some other reason, don't listen. At the end of the day, hopefully you are making up your on mind on how to wager.

Bottom line is that what he and NYRA offers is better than most others out there. I am not sure what you want and what is your motivation for posts like this.

Its better then EVERYTHING out there and its not close anymore. Look at Churchill running 37k allowances Friday. NYRA is it right now in racing. Except it or find another hobby. As far as Serling.... Personally I dont like him, but he is the best public handicapper that's out there and on TV. Him and Beer together are great. Talking horses is great. Trips and Traps is great and the National Racing Report is great. What other tracks offer anything like these shows??

[menifee]

There might not be a more thankless job than that of a track handicapper. You are only as good as your last batch of picks...and every once-a-week hobbyist thinks that he is better at the craft than YOU are.

If everyone played this game on an everyday basis...then there would be new respect out there for the public handicapper. It's easy to lie to yourself about your handicapping ability, when you are playing this game as a lark.

You get paid to handicap horses. I repeat - you get paid to handicap horses. You are not digging ditches. It's a wonderful job.

I have yet to find a track handicapper that is profitable with their public picks. They have to play every race. If they were profitable, they would not be the track handicapper. They would be a deity.

[PhantomOnTour]

There might not be a more thankless job than that of a track handicapper. You are only as good as your last batch of picks...and every once-a-week hobbyist thinks that he is better at the craft than YOU are.

If everyone played this game on an everyday basis...then there would be new respect out there for the public handicapper. It's easy to lie to yourself about your handicapping ability, when you are playing this game as a lark.
Exactly...he is required to pick practically every single race every day, and give his top three or four runners.
I challenge anyone to do that for an entire meet and not have some terrible dry spells.

[Stillriledup]

Banana Thief IMO on paper looked like shit. I think your just using 1 example to make yourself look good with the overall point your trying to make.


"On paper" doesn't mean much. Sometimes horses are inherently better or worse than their on paper appearance.

[Stillriledup]

Andy is without a doubt one of the best, if not the best on-air handicapper covering the game today (I don't watch them all, so I can't say for absolute certain he's the very best...but I'd feel comfortable making that wager...just keeping it real). That's it in a nutshell.

Nobody displays more passion, nobody works harder at the craft, and nobody gives out as much solid handicapping opinions as Andy. That's all there is to it. Even his haters know this deep down in their cold little heart of hearts (and I despise the term "hater," but in this particular instance, it fits perfectly). That's why when they desperately try and come up with something negative about him, they look so downright foolish doing it...and they know they're being ridiculous, but they just can't help themselves...for one reason or another, they're haters, and always will be.

But nobody can deny the little guy knows his stuff...inside and out...end of story.

His haters? Why would he have haters?

As far as him knowing his stuff, are there really people out there who care one way or another how much racing knowledge other people possess?

How does any of this matter?

[thaskalos]

You get paid to handicap horses. I repeat - you get paid to handicap horses. You are not digging ditches. It's a wonderful job.

I have yet to find a track handicapper that is profitable with their public picks. They have to play every race. If they were profitable, they would not be the track handicapper. They would be a deity.

If people already know that...then why all the fuss? Threads pop up here from time to time...telling us that "Serling is HOT". Then these threads cool down after a while...which usually means that Serling has cooled down too. And then the threads pick up again a month or two later...informing us that Serling has picked 7 out of 9 races. And then the threads disappear again. Childish stuff...IMO.

Serling's skill as a handicapper should be obvious to all...and it should also be obvious to all that this is a game of wild, inescapable swings. What difference does it make if we are "hot" or "cold" at any given time? None of us are as good as our winning streaks make us out to be...nor are we as bad as our losing streaks might indicate.

If the public handicapper always agreed with our opinions...then what good would he be to us?

[Stillriledup]

Here's some food for thought.

Andy is at the track everyday and puts in all this work. It's possible no other human being puts in more hours handicapping and watching races. Two thoughts come to mind.

1-Perhaps Andy should be doing better considering the effort.

2-If Andy can't do better, what does it say about the chances of the average horse player who can't be at the track everyday and who can't dedicate all those hours to handicapping.

How many hours does Andy spend watching replays and handicapping per week?

[Thebigguy]

His haters? Why would he have haters?

As far as him knowing his stuff, are there really people out there who care one way or another how much racing knowledge other people possess?

How does any of this matter?


Why would he have haters? Really?
Are you NotAndySerling on twitter? Or is it Andy Serling is a piker or some bullshit?

[Stillriledup]

Why would he have haters? Really?
Are you NotAndySerling on twitter? Or is it Andy Serling is a piker or some bullshit?

Im just wondering why the guy has haters. He's giving out selections and free information, why would anyone dislike a guy who does that?

[Thebigguy]

Im just wondering why the guy has haters. He's giving out selections and free information, why would anyone dislike a guy who does that?

I dont have a twitter account. I go on to look at his and Dougie Sals tweets. I have seen at least 5 different fake accounts attacking Serling.
I dont know why myself, maybe because people are lifeless and pathetic?

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Im just wondering why the guy has haters. He's giving out selections and free information, why would anyone dislike a guy who does that?

Human nature, SRU. The masses love to pick on the celebs, especially when they make gaffs. Putting them down 'cause they're jealous, I guess. Why else do we know so much about the talent-less Brittany Spears or Lindsay Lohan?

In Andy's case, it doesn't even take a mistake - just a misinterpretaion, and an active imagination to create a differing viewpoint and wasted thread bandwidth....

[nijinski]

Andy is an excellent handicapper . I often referred others to listen to
him or check out his picks on Twitter .
I am myself stubborn when handicapping I like the control I guess . As
a result , I did poorly at Toga . LOL .

Nice to hear of the seven winners . The hard work was rewarded :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

There might not be a more thankless job than that of a track handicapper. You are only as good as your last batch of picks...and every once-a-week hobbyist thinks that he is better at the craft than YOU are.

If everyone played this game on an everyday basis...then there would be new respect out there for the public handicapper. It's easy to lie to yourself about your handicapping ability, when you are playing this game as a lark.

What about the idea that if you're being paid to dispense opinions over the airwaves, you're held to a higher standard than the "once a week hobbyist" and taking crap from random idiots is one of the costs of doing business?

[thaskalos]

What about the idea that if you're being paid to dispense opinions over the airwaves, you're held to a higher standard than the "once a week hobbyist" and taking crap from random idiots is one of the costs of doing business?

Those "random idiots" shouldn't let their own handicapping talent go to waste; they should apply for a handicapping job themselves.

[menifee]

If people already know that...then why all the fuss? Threads pop up here from time to time...telling us that "Serling is HOT". Then these threads cool down after a while...which usually means that Serling has cooled down too. And then the threads pick up again a month or two later...informing us that Serling has picked 7 out of 9 races. And then the threads disappear again. Childish stuff...IMO.

Serling's skill as a handicapper should be obvious to all...and it should also be obvious to all that this is a game of wild, inescapable swings. What difference does it make if we are "hot" or "cold" at any given time? None of us are as good as our winning streaks make us out to be...nor are we as bad as our losing streaks might indicate.

If the public handicapper always agreed with our opinions...then what good would he be to us?

I agree with you that it is childish. I never posted on Serling and could care less about him. If I were to hazard a guess, my instinct is that people know he posts here and know that he responds, so they try to get a reaction out of him. Pretty dumb stuff.

[Stillriledup]

Those "random idiots" shouldn't let their own handicapping talent go to waste; they should apply for a handicapping job themselves.

Funny thing is that if Andy offered to let one of his haters or detractors sit on the set one day and discuss the races and give out picks, none of these people would ever take him up on it...because they would be exposed as frauds and they know it.

[thaskalos]

Funny thing is that if Andy offered to let one of his haters or detractors sit on the set one day and discuss the races and give out picks, none of these people would ever take him up on it...because they would be exposed as frauds and they know it.

Having some handicapping talent is one thing...but presenting that talent to a wide audience is something entirely different. Most people fear public speaking more than they fear death. There is more to Serling's job than most people realize.

[Stillriledup]

Having some handicapping talent is one thing...but presenting that talent to a wide audience is something entirely different. Most people fear public speaking more than they fear death. There is more to Serling's job than most people realize.

Its not easy. The work that goes in, the pressure to perform at a high level, the beating yourself up over decisions that turn out bad and dealing with idiots and addicts who would love nothing better than to tear you down and hope you fail.

No doubt, a lot harder than it looks.

[rastajenk]

I know that Andy is well liked on this message board and I'll probably come under attack for posting my opinion. Well, you got that part right, anyway.

[Thebigguy]

Well, you got that part right, anyway.

Shes a typical crazy woman. A week or 2 ago defending Serling in another thread then starting this one.

[EMD4ME]

Funny thing is that if Andy offered to let one of his haters or detractors sit on the set one day and discuss the races and give out picks, none of these people would ever take him up on it...because they would be exposed as frauds and they know it.

First, let me say I AM NOT one of his detractors. (although my incomplete thought in another thread would make me look that way). I would love to be his sidekick for a day. Man does his work, love his insights and most importantly I love the fact that HE HAS OPINIONS.

I hate horseplayers who handicap a whole card and don't hate a single horse or who don't love a single horse (because they don't watch replays, keep bias notes, don't make or verify numbers via their own chart work etc.). He is not afraid to say I don't like this horse and that is the essence of our game.

For the record, I thought 'banana' was a bad play too. I had all in the pick 5 that race and was fuming that he wired so easily.

Finally, it is super tough to be right so often WHEN YOU HAVE TO MAKE A PICK IN EVERY RACE as he has too. I'm sure if he didn't have to make a pick and could just give out 5 plays of the day, his average would go from great to awesome.

[PaceAdvantage]

His haters? Why would he have haters?

As far as him knowing his stuff, are there really people out there who care one way or another how much racing knowledge other people possess?

How does any of this matter?Are you seriously questioning the worth of someone else's posts on here???? :lol: :lol: :lol: YOU????

I guess nobody will ever accuse you of being ball-less.... :bang:

[Tara73]

Andy gets himself in trouble for failing to look at each horse's individual race pattern and understanding the ebbs and flows of past performances. He can take his game to a new level and add to his trademark humor and brash irreverence if he understood race patterns.

[PaceAdvantage]

Andy gets himself in trouble for failing to look at each horse's individual race pattern and understanding the ebbs and flows of past performances. He can take his game to a new level and add to his trademark humor and brash irreverence if he understood race patterns.A perfect illustration of what I talked about above.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Radar]

You know, I read this kind of crap and ask myself why does anyone post this? Look Serling and others in his line of work are there to give players some insights into the race. That is it, take it or leave it. If you are not satisfied or do not like for some other reason, don't listen. At the end of the day, hopefully you are making up your on mind on how to wager.

Bottom line is that what he and NYRA offers is better than most others out there. I am not sure what you want and what is your motivation for posts like this.

Completely in agreement. There is a tendency to bet picks made on other people's opinion which are at best educated guesses. If these public handicappers were sure of their selections they would not even be sharing them but rather be going to financial institutions to borrow betting money to enrich themselves. Many, however, enjoy being guided by others.

[classhandicapper]

There was recently a thread on the Ragozin board where I suggested I rarely give out horses because of disadvantages like not seeing late odds, how the track is playing, late scratches etc... I also said there is no upside to it because no matter how well you do overall, critics will focus on every trip, trainer pattern, bias etc.. you miss or or mis-analyze instead of what you do bring to the table.

This thread is what I was talking about.

Andy puts on a terrific show, as does Brad Thomas at Monmouth. I guess you need thick skin to do that kind of work.

[badcompany]

There was recently a thread on the Ragozin board where I suggested I rarely give out horses because of disadvantages like not seeing late odds, how the track is playing, late scratches etc... I also said there is no upside to it because no matter how well you do overall, critics will focus on every trip, trainer pattern, bias etc.. you miss or or mis-analyze instead of what you do bring to the table.

This thread is what I was talking about.

Andy puts on a terrific show, as does Brad Thomas at Monmouth. I guess you need thick skin to do that kind of work.

You want to look to a public handicapper not so much for picks, but for ideas.

Down the road, you might be handicapping a race and recall something Andy had said awhile back which can be applied to the current race.

[Valuist]

I want to say that I'm a Andy Serling fan and the in house broadcast is the best in the industry. It was recently posted here that Andy wasn't as sharp handicapping this meet. Someone presumed that Andy had too much going on with his radio show, his Fox show and all his other pursuits and responsibilities. We just can't assume this was case and I didn't believe it. But the last few weeks of the meet Andy seemed lost. Constantly mentioning to Mike Beer that he missed something after Mike bought up an obvious point. I really started to wonder about Andy and was he actually watching the races anymore? When he said that Banana Thief did no running in his last race and was a bad favorite I really started to wonder. Banana Thief was never comfortable in that race and it wasn't an easy trip as applied by Andy. Anyone watching the head on of that race would have made that determination. I know that Andy is well liked on this message board and I'll probably come under attack for posting my opinion. I just feel It had to be said.

You cite one example from one race and conclude he was lost the last few weeks? Of all race meets, Saratoga has to be the most difficult to do that job. 6 day race weeks, and many competitive full fields on grass that require watching a lot of replays. Watching Talking Horses, its clear Serling works very hard to give insights that you don't hear on other handicapping shows.

[classhandicapper]

You want to look to a public handicapper not so much for picks, but for ideas.

Down the road, you might be handicapping a race and recall something Andy had said awhile back which can be applied to the current race.

I agree, but my comment still applies.

If he says "so and so" ran a good race at MTH last out, but missed the fact that the grass course was inside speed favoring that day and the horse had actually run a lot better than it looks, the critics will line up even if 90% of the time he is adding value.

[castaway01]

I agree, but my comment still applies.

If he says "so and so" ran a good race at MTH last out, but missed the fact that the grass course was inside speed favoring that day and the horse had actually run a lot better than it looks, the critics will line up even if 90% of the time he is adding value.

You're right, because in fact it is impossible for a handicapper to catch every single thing that happens in every race, because people can have legitimate disagreements in opinion as to what was a "bad trip" vs. "no effort", and because (most importantly) 99% of the time the critics are pointing out these incorrect opinions AFTER the race rather than before. That always helps.

[the little guy]

There were three specific races/incidents over the last couple of weeks where Mike Beer pointed things out on Talking Horses that I had missed, made a great deal of sense to me, and also ended up proving correct. One was So Lonesome, who won the Albany, one was Stonetastic, who won the Prioress, and one was Heart to Heart, a Brian Lynch shipper that won an allowance race.

This is what Talking Horses, or any detailed handicapping conversation is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT....people sharing ideas and perhaps showing each other, or others, things they may not have thought of ( or missed if that makes some people feel better ). Is it possible that had I looked at each of these races for another 30 minutes that I would have uncovered them myself? Sure, but that would have meant another four hours, or so, each day for each card we ran. OK, I guess I could have eliminated sleeping....and I apologize for that, but outside of that, I think adding someone of Mike Beer's obvious skills was a better solution. More ideas, more opinions, and thus more food for thought for the people interested in watching our shows. Seemed like a good idea at the time, even if it meant exposing that I am, in fact, far from perfect.

[mountainman]

There might not be a more thankless job than that of a track handicapper. You are only as good as your last batch of picks...and every once-a-week hobbyist thinks that he is better at the craft than YOU are.

If everyone played this game on an everyday basis...then there would be new respect out there for the public handicapper. It's easy to lie to yourself about your handicapping ability, when you are playing this game as a lark.

Just being presented on tv as an "expert" engenders resentment in certain quarters. And it's something you never get completely desensitized to. Not if you're human. And results aren't always commensurate with knowledge or effort. True, it's fun and gratifying to talk races for a living, but it does require a masochistic streak, or skin like a crocodile. And I, for one, possess neither.

[SandyW]

There were three specific races/incidents over the last couple of weeks where Mike Beer pointed things out on Talking Horses that I had missed, made a great deal of sense to me, and also ended up proving correct. One was So Lonesome, who won the Albany, one was Stonetastic, who won the Prioress, and one was Heart to Heart, a Brian Lynch shipper that won an allowance race.

This is what Talking Horses, or any detailed handicapping conversation is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT....people sharing ideas and perhaps showing each other, or others, things they may not have thought of ( or missed if that makes some people feel better ). Is it possible that had I looked at each of these races for another 30 minutes that I would have uncovered them myself? Sure, but that would have meant another four hours, or so, each day for each card we ran. OK, I guess I could have eliminated sleeping....and I apologize for that, but outside of that, I think adding someone of Mike Beer's obvious skills was a better solution. More ideas, more opinions, and thus more food for thought for the people interested in watching our shows. Seemed like a good idea at the time, even if it meant exposing that I am, in fact, far from perfect.

Andy, I don't know why you have to explain your self to anybody for all the work that you do. You are as good as they come doing what you do.
Quote:
This is what Talking Horses, or any detailed handicapping conversation is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT....people sharing ideas and perhaps showing each other, or others, things they may not have thought of.
Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to listen, as far as I know there are mute buttons included on every remote control.

[mountainman]

There were three specific races/incidents over the last couple of weeks where Mike Beer pointed things out on Talking Horses that I had missed, made a great deal of sense to me, and also ended up proving correct. One was So Lonesome, who won the Albany, one was Stonetastic, who won the Prioress, and one was Heart to Heart, a Brian Lynch shipper that won an allowance race.

This is what Talking Horses, or any detailed handicapping conversation is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT....people sharing ideas and perhaps showing each other, or others, things they may not have thought of ( or missed if that makes some people feel better ). Is it possible that had I looked at each of these races for another 30 minutes that I would have uncovered them myself? Sure, but that would have meant another four hours, or so, each day for each card we ran. OK, I guess I could have eliminated sleeping....and I apologize for that, but outside of that, I think adding someone of Mike Beer's obvious skills was a better solution. More ideas, more opinions, and thus more food for thought for the people interested in watching our shows. Seemed like a good idea at the time, even if it meant exposing that I am, in fact, far from perfect.

Great post. I miss things, too. Sometimes things I could likewise spot if I went without sleep-or golf. And I don't plan to give either up.

[the little guy]

Andy, I don't know why you have to explain your self to anybody for all the work that you do. You are as good as they come doing what you do.
Quote:
This is what Talking Horses, or any detailed handicapping conversation is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT....people sharing ideas and perhaps showing each other, or others, things they may not have thought of.
Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to listen, as far as I know there are mute buttons included on every remote control.

Thanks, and I know I don't have to. However, I couldn't help but enjoy the irony of the original post in this thread. The person who started it was actually pointing out the main reason our show is of value.

[badcompany]

I agree, but my comment still applies.

If he says "so and so" ran a good race at MTH last out, but missed the fact that the grass course was inside speed favoring that day and the horse had actually run a lot better than it looks, the critics will line up even if 90% of the time he is adding value.

You're holding him to impossible standards.

Just because you or someone else thought the track was inside speed favoring that day, doesn't make it a fact. It could've been that the inside speed horses happened to be good that day.

[Tom]

We have a Selections forum here.
Anyone is free to make picks in every race, every day, for an entire meeting, but they have to be all posted early in the morning.

The next day, WE all will look at them and tear them apart.

[Stillriledup]

First, let me say I AM NOT one of his detractors. (although my incomplete thought in another thread would make me look that way). I would love to be his sidekick for a day. Man does his work, love his insights and most importantly I love the fact that HE HAS OPINIONS.

I hate horseplayers who handicap a whole card and don't hate a single horse or who don't love a single horse (because they don't watch replays, keep bias notes, don't make or verify numbers via their own chart work etc.). He is not afraid to say I don't like this horse and that is the essence of our game.

For the record, I thought 'banana' was a bad play too. I had all in the pick 5 that race and was fuming that he wired so easily.

Finally, it is super tough to be right so often WHEN YOU HAVE TO MAKE A PICK IN EVERY RACE as he has too. I'm sure if he didn't have to make a pick and could just give out 5 plays of the day, his average would go from great to awesome.

I think the original thought on all of these recent Serling discussions is surrounded by this Banana horse and race, that was the tipping point.

I'm not going to talk specifically about Banana's previous replay because we all interpret these things differently, but to me, i'm still trying to figure out why someone can have such a strong opinion on a horse who had experience vs a field of 80% first time starters. How does anyone know if any first time starter has any talent until they actually run?

I get the mindset that out of the 8 firsters in that race, you would figure the odds were very good that one of them would be "pretty good" and that pretty good runner would defeat Banana...who's "just a horse". Maybe that was the original mindset that you and Andy had on the race?

I didnt bet that race or handicap it, but if i had, and if i was betting pick anythings, i probably would have went "all" also, but wouldn't be surprised if any of the 10 horses had won and certainly wouldn't be saying that one of the only 2 horses with experience had "no shot on paper".

Who exactly did he have "no shot" to defeat in that race? Was there a firster who was rumored to be the next Spectacular Bid?

[classhandicapper]

You're holding him to impossible standards.

Just because you or someone else thought the track was inside speed favoring that day, doesn't make it a fact. It could've been that the inside speed horses happened to be good that day.

You are misunderstanding me.

I am saying threads like this are preposterous. If I had Andy's job I would either have to quit or never read forums again because my skin is not thick enough for this nonsense.

IMO we should be judging the show for its entertainment value, teaching value, and for the insights it brings to the table that we ALL miss form time to time. That's why it's there. By that standard, it's a great show. But that's not what happens. We get repeated threads where people point out every oversight, every bad pick, every bad meet, everything they disagree with etc... in a critical way. It's rarely constructive and it's not just aimed at Andy. It's like there is an underlying jealousy or competitiveness among horse players where they just wait quietly for a mistake, bad selection, bad meet, etc... so they can pounce.

[Stillriledup]

You are misunderstanding me.

I am saying threads like this are preposterous. If I had Andy's job I would either have to quit or never read forums again because my skin is not thick enough for this nonsense.

IMO we should be judging the show for its entertainment value, teaching value, and for the insights it brings to the table that we ALL miss form time to time. That's why it's there. By that standard, it's a great show. But that's not what happens. We get repeated threads where people point out every oversight, every bad pick, etc... in a critical way. It's like there is an underlying jealousy or venom among horse players where they just wait quietly for a mistake, bad selection, bad meet, etc... so they can pounce.

Out of Andy Serling's almost 5,000 posts, how many times do you think he "pounced" on someone he thought made a mistake, bad selection, bad meet, etc? Is it 0?

The difference is that when Andy criticizes someone on here for a post he disagrees with, that person, whoever it is, doesn't have a half a dozen people running to their defense just because of who they are.

Andy doesn't pull any punches when he posts here, if you're wrong, he will tell you, right to your face, he won't sugarcoat it. I don't think that the world should end because someone wanted to comment on something he said or a pick he made or a pick he didn't make.

[iceknight]

Out of Andy Serling's almost 5,000 posts, how many times do you think he "pounced" on someone he thought made a mistake, bad selection, bad meet, etc? Is it 0?

The difference is that when Andy criticizes someone on here for a post he disagrees with, that person, whoever it is, doesn't have a half a dozen people running to their defense just because of who they are.

Andy doesn't pull any punches when he posts here, if you're wrong, he will tell you, right to your face, he won't sugarcoat it. I don't think that the world should end because someone wanted to comment on something he said or a pick he made or a pick he didn't make. I am not able to understand what you are trying to SRU, but I think Andy Serling does not usually come here and start threads of negative comments about someone or their work. At least none that I have seen..

Other than perhaps the Dutrow thread.. or his occasional issues with DRUGS on this board. (and even those I had to dig up as they are from last decade)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4651764

It is a different thing to engage in reparte(e) if someone hurls stuff at you and, yes, he pulls no punches on those. Likewise, people come to his support because his work or integrity etc is challenged by someone on a (usually) weak basis.

Oh by the way, some of those old threads are a fun read :) mostly for gossip value :lol: :lol: :lol:

[cj]

I am not able to understand what you are trying to SRU, but I think Andy Serling does not usually come here and start threads of negative comments about someone or their work. At least none that I have seen..

Other than perhaps the Dutrow thread.. or his occasional issues with DRUGS on this board. (and even those I had to dig up as they are from last decade)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4651764

It is a different thing to engage in reparte(e) if someone hurls stuff at you and, yes, he pulls no punches on those. Likewise, people come to his support because his work or integrity etc is challenged by someone on a (usually) weak basis.

Oh by the way, some of those old threads are a fun read :) mostly for gossip value :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well said.

[GameTheory]

I am not able to understand what you are trying to SRU, but I think Andy Serling does not usually come here and start threads of negative comments about someone or their work. At least none that I have seen..But remove the words "start threads" and it would be true, at least it used to be, I haven't been around much lately. I'm still waiting for my apology from Andy for his baseless character assassination of me. He has been plenty hostile and childishly insulting to people for no particular reason. I haven't seen him apologize to anyone else either. (But again, maybe all that is all well in the past.) I don't know him outside of reading his posts here (which I mostly avoid now), I don't know his handicapping or what he is like on TV -- I've seen only a few minutes of him here and there over the years. I'd be willing to stipulate that he is the greatest handicapper in the world as so many smart people seem to think so, he probably is. (Or at least greatest public handicapper.) But he has a certain amount of "haters" just because he's been a jerk.

But also getting back to the main topic, isn't critiquing public handicapping/news/whatever pretty normal discussion for a horse racing forum? You know, just "reviewing" stuff of interest? It is only a bit strange around here because Andy actually is reading some of this stuff. I doubt if I complained my favorite TV show on HBO was not as good this season or such-and-such anchor on Sportscenter was becoming annoying that a bunch of people would be posting, "Oh, you know they work really hard on that show, you shouldn't criticize." I mean please...

[PaceAdvantage]

But also getting back to the main topic, isn't critiquing public handicapping/news/whatever pretty normal discussion for a horse racing forum?What other public handicappers get routinely criticized around here?

Mountainman posts here as much or more than Andy. I think I don't need more than one hand to count the number of negative posts made about either him or Nancy. And I'm pretty sure there was never a thread created about him to criticize one of this selections.

And Mountaineer gets played by a pretty good chunk of people here, so it's not like you can say, well, nobody's heard of Mark or Mountaineer before, and that's why nobody nit-picks him on a regular basis.

[GameTheory]

What other public handicappers get routinely criticized around here?

Mountainman posts here as much or more than Andy. I think I don't need more than one hand to count the number of negative posts made about either him or Nancy. And I'm pretty sure there was never a thread created about him to criticize one of this selections.

And Mountaineer gets played by a pretty good chunk of people here, so it's not like you can say, well, nobody's heard of Mark or Mountaineer before, and that's why nobody nit-picks him on a regular basis.
Kinda my point, a "good handicapper and a great guy" is unlikely to get much flak, I think Mr. Serling generates much of this by his own personality coming back at him.

BUT to be fair, NYRA is high-profile and is expected to be first-class while Mountaineer is just not. So if Mountaineer puts on a good show it is almost unexpected, the standards are lower. ("Look what a good show lowly Mountaineer is putting on!") Whereas NYRA should be the best of the best and anything wrong at all is going to be picked on. (i.e. Andy would have much less haters if he worked at Mountaineer. Many less people would know him period.) So the price of fame and all that I agree with. But that's not all it is. I wish I could turn on the NYRA show and watch it neutrally and enjoy it but I already think he's an ass for his behavior here so I really can't...

[mountainman]

What other public handicappers get routinely criticized around here?

Mountainman posts here as much or more than Andy. I think I don't need more than one hand to count the number of negative posts made about either him or Nancy. And I'm pretty sure there was never a thread created about him to criticize one of this selections.

And Mountaineer gets played by a pretty good chunk of people here, so it's not like you can say, well, nobody's heard of Mark or Mountaineer before, and that's why nobody nit-picks him on a regular basis.

True. And Serling is an exceptional analyst. Probably better than I am. And I take great pride in my work. And I consider myself a polarizing figure, but, for some reason, have never attracted even a modicum of the unfair hostility directed at him.

But there is this one guy who comes to mountaineer and calls me every name in the BOOK. I mean screams at the tv and degrades me about once a week, I'm told. Very dangerous on his part. To assume I'm completely civilized.

[Show Me the Wire]

True. And Serling is an exceptional analyst. Probably better than I am. And I take great pride in my work. And I consider myself a polarizing figure, but, for some reason, have never attracted even a modicum of the unfair hostility directed at him.

But there is this one guy who comes to mountaineer and calls me every name in the BOOK. I mean screams at the tv and degrades me about once a week, I'm told. Very dangerous on his part. To assume I'm completely civilized.

You may be a polarizing figure. I don't know. However, I don't recall you personally attacking anyone either to attract any unfair criticism.

[letswastemoney]

Any handicapper that must pick every race will have streaks of bad picks.

[highnote]

Any handicapper that must pick every race will have streaks of bad picks.

Definitely true.

One way for a public handicapper to increase his strike rate and ROI is to focus on a narrow range of classes.

For years, Nick Mordin was a racing journalist and public handicapper for U.K. races before he moved on to other racing endeavors. His modus operandi was to focus only on stakes quality runners. He was a paddock handicapper and wouldn't bet a horse until he saw it run a few times and got to know it. He and I used to go to the paddock of the NYRA races and he knew most of the stakes horses by sight. When he was ready to bet he would send it in.

The good thing about his method is he only had to attend the races on weekends and could miss most of the undercard. Saratoga might be the exception because there are so many good maiden races where future stars make their debut, but in general focusing on stakes horses produced good results and the higher class horses tended to run more consistently and truer to form than claimers.

[PaceAdvantage]

You may be a polarizing figure. I don't know. However, I don't recall you personally attacking anyone either to attract any unfair criticism.It's my belief that the term "personal attack" is used way too liberally, especially on this website.

These days, ANY CRITICISM or DISAGREEMENT seems to be tagged with the phrase "personal attack."

So when people say Andy personally attacked them, I'd really like to see the specifics...but then again, such a discussion isn't productive by any means, so scratch that idea.

[VeryOldMan]

And Serling is an exceptional analyst. Probably better than I am. And I take great pride in my work. And I consider myself a polarizing figure, but, for some reason, have never attracted even a modicum of the unfair hostility directed at him.

Serling is playing to a much bigger audience and betting pool and attracts more heat as a result. I respect both of you for putting yourselves out there.

I don't have a dog in this fight - from what I've seen on this board, TLG's posts come across as more acerbic and dismissive than yours do. Just saying. But the premise of the thread is flawed - if one doesn't like Serling's handicapping, then ignore it. He's putting himself out there for the world to see.

[JustRalph]

You guys see but one side ?

In the last few years Andy has improved in one area I don't see mentioned much at all. He's a pretty damn good broadcaster nowadays.

He wasn't bad by any means before. But it's not an easy job being the focus of the broadcast. His cohorts have improved also. People go to serious schools and big time training to be able to do this kind of job.

He's much improved, in fact he has developed his own style that seems to be working pretty damn well. He is being featured on national broadcasts with Fox, and TVG, and all over New York. There are thousands of communications grads who would punch their Sainted grandma in the mouth for two minutes of airtime anywhere in NY.

You could hand tomorrow's winners of every track in America to about 99% of the population and let them give them out and be a hundred percent right for every track, but that wouldn't make them professional broadcasters and the show would suffer without that crew at NYRA.

I appreciate production values etc. NYRA is much improved obviously due to the hard work of these guys. Picking winners isn't the whole ball of wax. The NYRA guys and gals are pulling off some pretty good TV on a subject that is pretty hard for most to understand. They do it live and that means unforeseen weather, scratches, surface changes etc. being nimble is a gift in broadcasting. They get it done pretty well.

Some days I think we tend to forget they are pulling off something that's not easy. If you don't think so, pull up a Google Hangout Friday, ask one of your buddies from this thread to join. Study those Belmont pp's and hit the record button and do every race. Just like Andy and friends do. Then at about five pm watch it back. Btw, you can broadcast it live to the world if you want.

I think you might find that it's a damn job too.......

[Show Me the Wire]

It's my belief that the term "personal attack" is used way too liberally, especially on this website.

These days, ANY CRITICISM or DISAGREEMENT seems to be tagged with the phrase "personal attack."

So when people say Andy personally attacked them, I'd really like to see the specifics...but then again, such a discussion isn't productive by any means, so scratch that idea.

I was a recipient too of some distasteful remarks. It was a long, long time ago so no worries, so I don't remember the specifics. I have no problem believing Game Theory's assertion. Only pointing out to our Mountain friend differing situations.

[Show Me the Wire]

You guys see but one side ?

In the last few years Andy has improved in one area I don't see mentioned much at all. He's a pretty damn good broadcaster nowadays...............................


And I wish him much continued success.

[Steve 'StatMan']

It is always a no-win situation. You can give out plenty of winners, but people will still be pissed because they didn't hit their exacta or trifecta. Plenty of winners, but others will complain and say the selector is no good or overated because the picks, often made a day in advance, didn't pay more than break even, like the selector owes everyone a guaranteed profit or something. Of course, the print and day-before selection medium is now outdated, and frankly picks that factor in the odds are now possible. But the old problem remains - you're picks don't break even, some will hold that against you and compliain to everyone the see or can post to. Eventually, though, really good handicappers won't want commentators/selectors doing that because it drives down the prices on the horses they already picked with their own hard work, and drives down their margins, and even the good handicappers will bitch about them.

Much of this sport, unfortuantely, seems to revolve around people and things that will always upset them. I don't even know if I could call this a good sport for 'Happy People." When so many of the experienced fans are constanty bitching (and I'm not saying there aren't valid points to be upset about), and track aprons and paddocks/walking rings and OTBs are so full of angry, bitter old men who curse at and about everything and everyone, plus all the hard work it takes to be 'good' at this game, no wonder there is such a strugle to get and retain new fans that want to get serious about the game.

[jk3521]

Bottom line..... touted people off a 2-1 shot, posted a 13-1 shot that won the last race of the meet. Good enough for me! :jump:
I wouldn't have bet that 2-1 shot anyway, no matter what he said. :)

[Robert Fischer]

You guys see but one side ?

In the last few years Andy has improved in one area I don't see mentioned much at all. He's a pretty damn good broadcaster nowadays.

He wasn't bad by any means before. But it's not an easy job being the focus of the broadcast. His cohorts have improved also. People go to serious schools and big time training to be able to do this kind of job.

He's much improved, in fact he has developed his own style that seems to be working pretty damn well. He is being featured on national broadcasts with Fox, and TVG, and all over New York. There are thousands of communications grads who would punch their Sainted grandma in the mouth for two minutes of airtime anywhere in NY.

You could hand tomorrow's winners of every track in America to about 99% of the population and let them give them out and be a hundred percent right for every track, but that wouldn't make them professional broadcasters and the show would suffer without that crew at NYRA.

I appreciate production values etc. NYRA is much improved obviously due to the hard work of these guys. Picking winners isn't the whole ball of wax. The NYRA guys and gals are pulling off some pretty good TV on a subject that is pretty hard for most to understand. They do it live and that means unforeseen weather, scratches, surface changes etc. being nimble is a gift in broadcasting. They get it done pretty well.

Some days I think we tend to forget they are pulling off something that's not easy. If you don't think so, pull up a Google Hangout Friday, ask one of your buddies from this thread to join. Study those Belmont pp's and hit the record button and do every race. Just like Andy and friends do. Then at about five pm watch it back. Btw, you can broadcast it live to the world if you want.

I think you might find that it's a damn job too.......

Well said.

It requires excelling at both the broadcasting/public speaking, and the handicapping knowledge.

Serling is a consummate professional.

Threads like this are pure silliness, but it's also nice in a way to have a forum like this giving the racing-fan a voice, and it's nice that a pro in the game like Andy is willing to interact a little.

[iceknight]

Thanks PA.

I think Ralph's post covers an angle I was not aware of much. I don't watch the card handicapping shows much, but from what I have read of threads started by TLG - they are almost always providing information that is useful to the fan or handicapper/bettor.

From the point of improving one's game, I do scan some of their (nyra) discussions, I read Teach or Spaniard's threads, the TFUS blog and the Stakes discussions in the forum. You cannot rely on just one person's views anyway, you have to take your own stand based on multiple sources of information and other 'hot tips'. :lol:

That is all folks should care about. If you cannot get everyone to agree to your views, it does nt mean people do not like you, they just don't like that particular viewpoint. So consider reframing your thoughts.

[OCF]

The little guy made a fan of me with the following exchange (see posts #40 to 42):

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1422944#post1422944

I defy anyone to find anything but grace in his reply to me.

As an aside, the thing I appreciate the most about tlg is I get the impression he would rather predict winners and have the public know he can do it then he would predict winners and keep them to himself so he can make more $.

Just an impression, I have no way of knowing if it's true or not.

[Billnewman]

[QUOTE=JustRalph]You guys see but one side ?

In the last few years Andy has improved in one area I don't see mentioned much at all. He's a pretty damn good broadcaster nowadays.

He wasn't bad by any means before. But it's not an easy job being the focus of the broadcast. weather, scratches, surface changes etc. being nimble is a gift


I remember when he first started the job it difficult for me follow his train of thought because he would constantly stay "with that being said". He communicates his point point of view much better now. And right or wrong I respect his confidence in his own beliefs and insites of subjective realities.

[plainolebill]

If I had the opportunity I can't think of two guys I'd rather stand at the rail with than Andy and Mike.

[Canarsie]

You get paid to handicap horses. I repeat - you get paid to handicap horses. You are not digging ditches. It's a wonderful job.

I have yet to find a track handicapper that is profitable with their public picks. They have to play every race. If they were profitable, they would not be the track handicapper. They would be a deity.

"Nothing could be further from the truth" in regards to him playing every race. He has to make four picks because those up above him make that a requirement. I know as a fact he doesn't play every race.

One time there was a P4 that paid well over $1500 at the Big A. Serling had the winners listed either first or second for the races involved. I sent him a tweet congratulating him if he played it the ticket constructed with the top two it was $16 (think it was a buck at the time). His response was he didn't play it but hit the P3. So many people would have said at that point they hit it but Andy showed nothing but class stating the truth.

Also there is no other show including cable or broadcast television that has such a loyal and large following. It isn't just about the picks, "WHY" also matters so your brain can get thinking. Banter is a HUGE part of the show and makes it that much more a joy to watch. Still the bottom line is if you don't like Talking Horses don't watch. You can do something better else with your time than bitch here.

Andy also needs a few :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: for being instrumental in hiring Maggie who is another valuable asset to the show.


I'm stealing CJ's line Andy "is one of us". When someone posts a good idea or asset on here Andy becomes the pipeline to at least try and get it implemented if he agrees with it. He would never take credit but adding up 1+1=2 really isn't that hard.


Quite a few years ago someone challenged TLG heads up and they were CRUSHED. His picks are available for public consumption every day. Maybe the OP wants to take a shot going against him this way redboarding is a dead issue.

My two cents.

[overthehill]

some one i never heard of , before being from the east coast, gave out picks for Delmar yesterday before the first race. His name is John Quigley i believe. I dont know how he normally does, but he tabbed the late pick 4 at del mar giving out at most two horses per race, and only one of the winners was the post time or the morning line favorite. I realize that may have been a one time thing but his picks were well reasoned . Kudos to him for picking a $237 pick 4 for .50!

As far a TLG goes, I respect him greatly. He speaks his mind, is a good trip handicapper, and has a good feel for when the chalk is tough to beat.

[aaron]

It seems to me that many people criticize Andy and other Public Handicappers. First,you don't have to listen or follow them. Second,if you listen,pick out the nuggets they mention that you may have missed. Third,they are required to make picks,but what you as a handicapper should do is make your own decisions. You will never be successful in this game betting other people's opinions. You can learn by listening,but you have to take responsibility for your bets.It is easy to criticize,but you try writing down your picks everyday and see how well you do. In my opinion,most Public Handicappers work very hard at their jobs and want to help the player.

[lamboguy]

some one i never heard of , before being from the east coast, gave out picks for Delmar yesterday before the first race. His name is John Quigley i believe. I dont know how he normally does, but he tabbed the late pick 4 at del mar giving out at most two horses per race, and only one of the winners was the post time or the morning line favorite. I realize that may have been a one time thing but his picks were well reasoned . Kudos to him for picking a $237 pick 4 for .50!

As far a TLG goes, I respect him greatly. He speaks his mind, is a good trip handicapper, and has a good feel for when the chalk is tough to beat.i met a guy that worked at Santa Anita last year and his name was Tom Quigley. not sure if its the same guy or his brother or related. he ran a vip room there.

[Tom]

If I had the opportunity I can't think of two guys I'd rather stand at the rail with than Andy and Mike.

Maggie.
Don't need s second.
:cool:

[overthehill]

yes it was probably him

[GatetoWire]

I can't tell you how much my handicapping has improved the last few years because of Andy.

I made a switch from harness to thoroughbred in 2010 and the transition was difficult to say the least.

I don't always agree with him but his approach to the game is rock solid. He does the work and formulates a strong opinion based on his own principles. He uses all forms of handicapping (Class, Trip, Pedigree, Pace, Figure etc) in making his selections and we all should applaud that the largest group of tracks (Belmont, Aqueduct and Saratoga) has a person like Andy to help educate all players (experienced and novice) to make them better players.

Taking petty shots at him because of his selections is insane. Embrace him and maybe your own play will improve too.

[SandyW]

some one i never heard of , before being from the east coast, gave out picks for Delmar yesterday before the first race. His name is John Quigley i believe. I dont know how he normally does, but he tabbed the late pick 4 at del mar giving out at most two horses per race, and only one of the winners was the post time or the morning line favorite. I realize that may have been a one time thing but his picks were well reasoned . Kudos to him for picking a $237 pick 4 for .50!

As far a TLG goes, I respect him greatly. He speaks his mind, is a good trip handicapper, and has a good feel for when the chalk is tough to beat.
Tom Quigley is the official track liaison for Santa Anita and the owner of Horse Player Magazine and also a pretty good handicapper.

[ShenanigansGirl]

I cannot claim to be a friend of Andy's, but I was a colleague of his. The man puts his money where his mouth is. Always. And he works incessantly. Furthermore, he is never satisfied to rest on his laurels. He is always looking for ways to find the most value for the horseplayer, and towards improving the vehicle (NYRA TV and his other media/promotional partners) he has in place for doing so. If he defers to Mike Beer on a few handicapping points, that is a great compliment to Mike Beer's ability (and well deserved, as Mike is also a tremendous handicapper).

You shouldn't knock someone whose professional purpose it is to inform you, and help you find the most value for your money. It makes you look naive at best -- and disingenuous at worst.

[098poi]

I haven't logged in for a day or 2 and just saw this thread. Wasn't there already another Andy Serling thread recently. I was going to post in that one but I held back. What I was going to say is that this reminds me of the Godfather movie when the families go to war and one of them says,"This has to happen every few years, cleans out the bad blood. The last one was 10 years ago". (I am going from memory I don't have the energy to Google it) My point is every 4 or 6 months there is an Andy Serling thread with no real purpose usually someone trying to drag him down and others chime in to defend him. I think I posted this once in another thread but there is no need to put him down or even try, HE HAS THE JOB, he works at NYRA and isn't going away. I don't know once this one dies down maybe we'll get a break for 6 months or so.

[Stillriledup]

I haven't logged in for a day or 2 and just saw this thread. Wasn't there already another Andy Serling thread recently. I was going to post in that one but I held back. What I was going to say is that this reminds me of the Godfather movie when the families go to war and one of them says,"This has to happen every few years, cleans out the bad blood. The last one was 10 years ago". (I am going from memory I don't have the energy to Google it) My point is every 4 or 6 months there is an Andy Serling thread with no real purpose usually someone trying to drag him down and others chime in to defend him. I think I posted this once in another thread but there is no need to put him down or even try, HE HAS THE JOB, he works at NYRA and isn't going away. I don't understand the point of the first post in this thread almost like when he writes, "But the last few weeks of the meet Andy seemed lost" that the next sentence would be, "I hope he isn't dong the crack, oh please not the crack!" :rolleyes: I don't know once this one dies down maybe we'll get a break for 6 months or so.

It seems to me that if you read all the posts in this thread, most of them are not trying to drag him down, but talk about how hard he works and his overall talent as a handicapper and broadcaster. I didnt get the impression that this was a "bash on andy" thread, many ran to his defense here to suggest that what he does isn't easy and he's very good at his job.

Also, if you're a public figure and you release opinions for a living, and you release something that turns out wrong or that someone disagrees with, i think its fair game to at least discuss it. that's part of being "Famous" if you are in the public eye, people are going to want to discuss what you said.

If this was a message board about acting and someone wanted to talk about a certain actor's acting skills and some of the roles he's accepted, it wouldn't be like a bunch of people trying to drag that actor down, it would just be people interested in acting and interested in that actor specifically to want to discuss him. Discussing Andy and his performance on a horse racing message board is similar to discussing an actor on an acting message board.

[098poi]

You're right about the bulk of this thread but it was started on a sour note. I made a mistake, I did comment in the other thread, I guess I can't even keep my hands off the keyboard.

[Stillriledup]

You're right about the bulk of this thread but it was started on a sour note. I made a mistake, I did comment in the other thread, I guess I can't even keep my hands off the keyboard.

Maybe the OP didn't phrase the post the right way, it was about a favorite that Andy had a strong stance against that won in a romp and i think the OP just wanted to try and understand how someone as good as Andy can take such a strong stance against a major contender.

Its certainly a sensitive issue because if you wanted to discuss this situation, its hard to do it in a way where other people who are fans of his won't take offense to ANY kind of criticism.

The OP's tone was probably wrong, but he/she did start it off saying that Andy is "the best", but probably could have phrased the post differently if andy's line of thinking is all he/she was after.

[thespaah]

Andy gets himself in trouble for failing to look at each horse's individual race pattern and understanding the ebbs and flows of past performances. He can take his game to a new level and add to his trademark humor and brash irreverence if he understood race patterns.
Are you kidding around? Or is this post a means to bid a retreat because you realize now you've stated some rather incredible things?

[castaway01]

Maybe the OP didn't phrase the post the right way, it was about a favorite that Andy had a strong stance against that won in a romp and i think the OP just wanted to try and understand how someone as good as Andy can take such a strong stance against a major contender.

Its certainly a sensitive issue because if you wanted to discuss this situation, its hard to do it in a way where other people who are fans of his won't take offense to ANY kind of criticism.

The OP's tone was probably wrong, but he/she did start it off saying that Andy is "the best", but probably could have phrased the post differently if andy's line of thinking is all he/she was after.

No, the OP said the IN-HOUSE BROADCAST was the best, but that "the last few weeks of the meet Andy seemed lost". That's not "bashing" to you? What does that have to do with "tone"?

My God your act grows tiresome.

[thaskalos]

Andy gets himself in trouble for failing to look at each horse's individual race pattern and understanding the ebbs and flows of past performances. He can take his game to a new level and add to his trademark humor and brash irreverence if he understood race patterns.

The tone of this post doesn't sound so "friendly" either. If these are Serlings "fans"...then I hate to see his detractors... :)

[Tom]

Tom Quigley is the official track liaison for Santa Anita and the owner of Horse Player Magazine and also a pretty good handicapper.

HP hasn't published in how many years now?

[thaskalos]

HP hasn't published in how many years now?

Maybe the issues are just late.

[Stillriledup]

Being a public handicapper is an EXTREMELY tough job, you have to be there every day, the work is really endless if you want to be good at your job and its a thankless situation, you can pick 9 winners in a row, but if you lose the 10th, someone might question "what happened".

Than, like Gus says, you have to deal with these armchair handicappers who can always "do better" than you and are absolute geniuses after the fact, nobody picks more winners than they do after the races are over.

Every track has a guy (or 2) who roots for a certain horse (cmon 3, cmon 3) and then when the 6 horse rushes by the 3 at the end, the guy yells "cmon 6, cmon 6, thata baby, woooooo, wooooo". Those are the people that public handicappers deal with on a daily basis who always have the winner after the race is over, but you never hear from them beforehand.

[thespaah]

Funny thing is that if Andy offered to let one of his haters or detractors sit on the set one day and discuss the races and give out picks, none of these people would ever take him up on it...because they would be exposed as frauds and they know it.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Every track has a guy (or 2) who roots for a certain horse (cmon 3, cmon 3) and then when the 6 horse rushes by the 3 at the end, the guy yells "cmon 6, cmon 6, thata baby, woooooo, wooooo".


Or, they scream "cmon 3...cmon 3" when the 3 is leading by 3 down the stretch...and when the 6 beats the 3 on the wire, they turn to their neighbor and say..."boy, am I glad I took the 3 in the second slot...with the 6 and the 8". :)

[thespaah]

There were three specific races/incidents over the last couple of weeks where Mike Beer pointed things out on Talking Horses that I had missed, made a great deal of sense to me, and also ended up proving correct. One was So Lonesome, who won the Albany, one was Stonetastic, who won the Prioress, and one was Heart to Heart, a Brian Lynch shipper that won an allowance race.

This is what Talking Horses, or any detailed handicapping conversation is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT....people sharing ideas and perhaps showing each other, or others, things they may not have thought of ( or missed if that makes some people feel better ). Is it possible that had I looked at each of these races for another 30 minutes that I would have uncovered them myself? Sure, but that would have meant another four hours, or so, each day for each card we ran. OK, I guess I could have eliminated sleeping....and I apologize for that, but outside of that, I think adding someone of Mike Beer's obvious skills was a better solution. More ideas, more opinions, and thus more food for thought for the people interested in watching our shows. Seemed like a good idea at the time, even if it meant exposing that I am, in fact, far from perfect.
Spot on..I like the back and forth analysis between you guys.
Yes I pay attention to both yours and Mike's selections, but it is the WHY of those selections upon which I focus. Usually my internal reaction is "I didn't see that"....
I also do my own homework and think for myself.
I am not seeing what all the fuss is about here.

[thespaah]

Thanks, and I know I don't have to. However, I couldn't help but enjoy the irony of the original post in this thread. The person who started it was actually pointing out the main reason our show is of value.
I'm just glad you decided to respond.
I appreciate your being a PA member.

[thespaah]

It's my belief that the term "personal attack" is used way too liberally, especially on this website.

These days, ANY CRITICISM or DISAGREEMENT seems to be tagged with the phrase "personal attack."

So when people say Andy personally attacked them, I'd really like to see the specifics...but then again, such a discussion isn't productive by any means, so scratch that idea.
I have noticed and lamented that as well.
I was accused on here of "bashing"....Ridiculous.
I cannot fathom where the notion of an attack is derived from basic critical opinion.....

[thespaah]

You guys see but one side ?

In the last few years Andy has improved in one area I don't see mentioned much at all. He's a pretty damn good broadcaster nowadays.

He wasn't bad by any means before. But it's not an easy job being the focus of the broadcast. His cohorts have improved also. People go to serious schools and big time training to be able to do this kind of job.

He's much improved, in fact he has developed his own style that seems to be working pretty damn well. He is being featured on national broadcasts with Fox, and TVG, and all over New York. There are thousands of communications grads who would punch their Sainted grandma in the mouth for two minutes of airtime anywhere in NY.

You could hand tomorrow's winners of every track in America to about 99% of the population and let them give them out and be a hundred percent right for every track, but that wouldn't make them professional broadcasters and the show would suffer without that crew at NYRA.

I appreciate production values etc. NYRA is much improved obviously due to the hard work of these guys. Picking winners isn't the whole ball of wax. The NYRA guys and gals are pulling off some pretty good TV on a subject that is pretty hard for most to understand. They do it live and that means unforeseen weather, scratches, surface changes etc. being nimble is a gift in broadcasting. They get it done pretty well.

Some days I think we tend to forget they are pulling off something that's not easy. If you don't think so, pull up a Google Hangout Friday, ask one of your buddies from this thread to join. Study those Belmont pp's and hit the record button and do every race. Just like Andy and friends do. Then at about five pm watch it back. Btw, you can broadcast it live to the world if you want.

I think you might find that it's a damn job too.......
" There are thousands of communications grads who would punch their Sainted grandma in the mouth for two minutes of airtime anywhere in NY."
That is for sure.
In my opinion and I have some experience here as I have dabbled in broadcasting myself, that a good broadcaster/announcer what have you must have the talent to perform well in front of an audience or on the mic.
Academics can take on only so far. Among those thousands you mentioned in your post there are communications majors that could not talk their way out of a wet paper bag if they were spotted the open end.

[Stillriledup]

Or, they scream "cmon 3...cmon 3" when the 3 is leading by 3 down the stretch...and when the 6 beats the 3 on the wire, they turn to their neighbor and say..."boy, am I glad I took the 3 in the second slot...with the 6 and the 8". :)

no doubt. Its incredible what you see in this game if you're around long enough. I once saw a guy rooting for a horse who had the lead on the backstretch of a route race, when a horse passed him into the far turn, he started rooting for that horse and when that horse started getting passed he magically had the horse in the lead....until, you know, he had the winner at the wire.

I think to this day, he still hasn't lost a race. :D

[mountainman]

Or, they scream "cmon 3...cmon 3" when the 3 is leading by 3 down the stretch...and when the 6 beats the 3 on the wire, they turn to their neighbor and say..."boy, am I glad I took the 3 in the second slot...with the 6 and the 8". :)

It's more insidious, more pointed, and even less fair than that for a tv handicapper. Lots of players corner me or call me to "innocently" inquire why I overlooked (or outright dissed) a certain winner. And it's ALWAYS a winner they had. Heck, I have guys that might happen to miss the show and call me the next day to (UNABASHEDLY) ask who I liked in races (for instance) 3, 4, 6 and 8.....and those are ALWAYS races they nailed. And it would NEVER occur to them that comparing picks on only races they ALREADY KNOW they hit might skewers things (just slightly?? lol) in their favor.

The lengths players will go to in order to feel superior is both amazing and highly entertaining. Believe me, I could write a friggin book about it.

[EMD4ME]

Or, they scream "cmon 3...cmon 3" when the 3 is leading by 3 down the stretch...and when the 6 beats the 3 on the wire, they turn to their neighbor and say..."boy, am I glad I took the 3 in the second slot...with the 6 and the 8". :)

We have one of those in our room at Belmont. Most often he doesn't even have a wager on the race (I know as I sit behind him). He just roots for what comes in and always roots against others.

Repulsive. He needs to get a life.

[Stillriledup]

We have one of those in our room at Belmont. Most often he doesn't even have a wager on the race (I know as I sit behind him). He just roots for what comes in and always roots against others.

Repulsive. He needs to get a life.

So, he doesn't bet? Maybe you ought to have them kick him out, if he's not going to bet, he doesn't need to be there bugging paying customers.

[thespaah]

So, he doesn't bet? Maybe you ought to have them kick him out, if he's not going to bet, he doesn't need to be there bugging paying customers.
I agree.
I would bug the crap out of that guy until he got so uncomfortable, he'd leave.
Of course letting others know out loud would hopefully result in "public shaming"....

[thespaah]

It's more insidious, more pointed, and even less fair than that for a tv handicapper. Lots of players corner me or call me to "innocently" inquire why I overlooked (or outright dissed) a certain winner. And it's ALWAYS a winner they had. Heck, I have guys that might happen to miss the show and call me the next day to (UNABASHEDLY) ask who I liked in races (for instance) 3, 4, 6 and 8.....and those are ALWAYS races they nailed. And it would NEVER occur to them that comparing picks on only races they ALREADY KNOW they hit might skewers things (just slightly?? lol) in their favor.

The lengths players will go to in order to feel superior is both amazing and highly entertaining. Believe me, I could write a friggin book about it.
Freakin unbelievable.
I cannot stand people who are like that..The neener neener neeners.....
Or the "hey jagoff I could do your job" types....They view themselves as the 'unrecognized expert' that believes the guy on tv or in your case the track handicapper just happened to "fall into the job" and that they are SURE they could do a better job..
I don't envy your position for a moment.
You state they "corner you"...Yeah, I can see it. You probably would rather be left to go about your business. I also realize these people feel entitled to your acknowledging their presence. So you stop and chat and of course have to endure the commentary.

[EMD4ME]

So, he doesn't bet? Maybe you ought to have them kick him out, if he's not going to bet, he doesn't need to be there bugging paying customers.

He's one of those ego freaks. Compensating for some deficiency... the type who can't read a form, hears others rooting (with big money on the line) and just screams SUPER LOUDLY for anything but what the whale is rooting for.

Can't stand him. Most of us know his schtick. His wife is so sweet so people ignore his stupidity, I guess for her sake.

[EMD4ME]

I agree.
I would bug the crap out of that guy until he got so uncomfortable, he'd leave.
Of course letting others know out loud would hopefully result in "public shaming"....

I believe in karma so I keep quiet and let him get his rocks off. However, many times he's done it to me and I actually don't mind as I prefer others root against me. It's hard to explain

[EMD4ME]

So, he doesn't bet? Maybe you ought to have them kick him out, if he's not going to bet, he doesn't need to be there bugging paying customers.

He bets some races. All measly dollar boxes. I've seen him not bet and root like he's alive for 50K, with no bet most of the time. A real sad soul.

I pass many races now, never hear a peep when I'm just watching. Can't imagine being him.

[thaskalos]

He bets some races. All measly dollar boxes. I've seen him not bet and root like he's alive for 50K, with no bet most of the time. A real sad soul.

I pass many races now, never hear a peep when I'm just watching. Can't imagine being him.

Reminds me of a track acquaintance of mine. A Greek guy...who has lost two paid-off apartment buildings at the track. He is now 60 years old...and works as a chef. He comes to the track on his day off, loses his paycheck quietly...and then roots against the picks of anyone else who is looking to make a score.

It's sad to see what a lifetime of losing does to some people...

[bello]

Hey TLG.....Been listening in a regular basis since the start of Saratoga. Love the comments but the selections were not clicking for you in droves upstate. And I know the requirement to make a selection in every race makes things difficult.

It really is nice to see you in the zone. Today you were amazing. A single day does not make us winners, but your trip watching, breeding comments, and general commentary were a thing of beauty today....and still one more race. Keep it up Have a great Super Saturday....I'll be listening in.

[Ocala Mike]

Andy and Mike were all over the last two tonight; anyone who thinks tlg doesn't affect the odds needs to think again. $11.80 on a McPeek 2nd-timer dropping from MdSpWt off "bad paper", and no respect given to this horse at all by the M/L maker.

TY, Andy!

[Tara73]

Andy and Mike were all over the last two tonight; anyone who thinks tlg doesn't affect the odds needs to think again. $11.80 on a McPeek 2nd-timer dropping from MdSpWt off "bad paper", and no respect given to this horse at all by the M/L maker.

TY, Andy!

Of course Andy is affecting the odds. Take note of any horse he picks with a morning line over 10-1. Watch that horse open up half those odds. It happens with every one of his long shot selections. It's a necessity to know who he picks to understand why that horse is getting bet. We'll often hear Andy say during the prattle. 'I picked this horse but I don't like him at this price and won't be betting at these odds.'. It's got to be tough for him to find value and make money with his selections. He had a couple of winners today and the TVG guys were singing his praise. This just added to his bandwagon. I think too many people are listening to him for the wrong reason. You're not going to win in the long run betting the horses he really likes and we all know when he likes one. You should listen for one reason and one reason only. Stimulating conversation and a.chance to disagree with the benefit of getting a few extra dollars if you're right and he's wrong.

[Ocala Mike]

Andy and Mike all over the opener at Belmont today; beat the :2: at 3/5.

Guess I'll stop posting about their successes; don't want to stop them!

[Grits]

Mike Beer, at this point, can't get any better. Not only his selections, his on air presence with Andy, but also his writing/analysis. Its excellent, concise, not overdone. Maintaining his current level? Professionally, he's the best addition TFUS has made since its inception. Hope business is booming.

[Ocala Mike]

True that about Mike Beer. He had the :10: on top in the 2nd, and the :10: / :9: exacta combining their selections a gimme.

[Exotic1]

Andy and Mike all over the opener at Belmont today; beat the :2: at 3/5.

Guess I'll stop posting about their successes; don't want to stop them!


Too much weight. Get off.

[Ocala Mike]

Too much weight. Get off.



Absolutely correct! Old racetrack buds used me as a reverse indicator; when I start following something, get off it! ROTFLMAO,

[Exotic1]

Absolutely correct! Old racetrack buds used me as a reverse indicator; when I start following something, get off it! ROTFLMAO,

I meant it in the nicest way. If you follow, just tip toe.

[PhantomOnTour]

Andy and Mike all over the opener at Belmont today; beat the :2: at 3/5.

Guess I'll stop posting about their successes; don't want to stop them!
This is just as much of a problem as those who knock him after a bad pick or two.
So he beat a heavy chalk...big whoop
So he said to play against a heavy chalk, and it won...big whoop

A single race or day does not define a handicapper, good or bad.

[ultracapper]

Serling is simply one of the elite personalities in horse racing today. He's come a long way since I first started running across him in chat rooms 15 years ago, and he was already ahead of the crowd then.

Public handicapping is as thankless an endeavor as can be embraced. I couldn't even imagine stepping into that boiling cauldron.

[GMB@BP]

Serling is simply one of the elite personalities in horse racing today. He's come a long way since I first started running across him in chat rooms 15 years ago, and he was already ahead of the crowd then.

Public handicapping is as thankless an endeavor as can be embraced. I couldn't even imagine stepping into that boiling cauldron.

I agree with this and its well said.

Its a bit of a thankless job. Andy has taught me a lot about racing, fortunately I was able to talk racing with him long before his NYRA gig which I will always be grateful.

[ultracapper]

The opportunity to read literally hundreds of his posts in conversations I had no part in added greatly to my understanding of the game also. I too was very fortunate to be able to "get in" on many of his thoughts before his time and energies rightly were put into a much more public arena.

[Ocala Mike]

I'm bumping this thread, because Andy just tweeted some remarkable statistics for his Belmont meet. He had picks for 31 out of the 38 racing days, and his on top picks went 94 for 296 (31.8%, comparable to performance of post time favorites), with a remarkable ROI of $2.09 (far superior to post time favorites). For a public handicapper having to post selections a day or more in advance, this is phenomenal. Kudos to the little guy!

[cj]

I'm bumping this thread, because Andy just tweeted some remarkable statistics for his Belmont meet. He had picks for 31 out of the 38 racing days, and his on top picks went 94 for 296 (31.8%, comparable to performance of post time favorites), with a remarkable ROI of $2.09 (far superior to post time favorites). For a public handicapper having to post selections a day or more in advance, this is phenomenal. Kudos to the little guy!

Nobody works harder than Andy, except maybe me.

Nick Tammaro also does a great job and had a + ROI. Both are really great guys to learn from, and I'd add Mike Beer from our site (TimeformUS) as well. I don't always agree with all of them, or any of them, but they always help my handicapping.

[DeoVolente]

Anyone who follows New York racing has to appreciate what Serling brings to the fans. He should be making a Durkin salary.

[Tara73]

But let's include Andy's on top picks and ROI from Saratoga. Seems only fair.

[Tom]

Why is is fair?
He did an amazing job for an entire meet and your want to down play it? :confused:

Agree with CJ....I like the viewpoints of good 'cappers, Andy, Nick, Mike.

[cj]

Nobody works harder than Andy, except maybe me.



Just want to assure everyone I was joking about me up there. Seems it struck a nerve with somebody when I checked my PMs this morning.

[thaskalos]

Just want to assure everyone I was joking about me up there. Seems it struck a nerve with somebody when I checked my PMs this morning.
I was going to let you know that I work pretty hard at this game too...but I decided against it. :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Just want to assure everyone I was joking about me up there. Seems it struck a nerve with somebody when I checked my PMs this morning.

Someone needs a sense of humor - your post was funny.

[dansan]

who's andy serling

[thaskalos]

who's andy serling
This is even funnier. :ThmbUp:

[judd]

Anyone who follows New York racing has to appreciate what Serling brings to the fans. He should be making a Durkin salary.
What's a Durkin salary?

[Grits]

What's a Durkin salary?

$444,000.00 for one hundred days, this final year.

[classhandicapper]

Just want to assure everyone I was joking about me up there. Seems it struck a nerve with somebody when I checked my PMs this morning.

lmao.

I can vouch for CJ working hard.

Myself on the other hand, I have mastered getting as much handicapping value as possible out of as little work as possible. ;)

[JustRalph]

$444,000.00 for one hundred days, this final year.

Is that a fact?

[Grits]

Is that a fact?

I was going from memory only; didn't Google it before posting. And yes, reported by the Times Union, I took it as factual. Though I'm off by 4K. Sorry for being incorrect.

Here's the report.

There's other comment about this being excessive. Still, Tom drove a hard bargain. Smart man. ;)

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/He-called-the-shots-and-the-races-5833759.php

It pays to speak well of horses.

Just ask Tom Durkin (http://www.timesunion.com/search/?action=search&channel=local&inlineLink=1&searchindex=gsa&query=%22Tom+Durkin%22), the voice of the New York Racing Association from 1990 to his retirement at the end of the Saratoga meet this summer. His contract paid him $440,000 in 2014 for 100 days of calling races at NYRA tracks. That includes $430,000 in base pay and an annual extra $10,000 stipend for working in Saratoga Springs, where he resides.

Durkin doubts Collmus will be paid at the same amount. "I would guess he would not come in at the same level; I've got a lot more gravitas," he said. "Ten or 15 years from now he'll probably have the equivalent."

[PaceAdvantage]

who's andy serlingwho's dansan?

[PaceAdvantage]

But let's include Andy's on top picks and ROI from Saratoga. Seems only fair.Haven't you already done this?

[Tape Reader]

Anyone know what John Imbrale gets? IMO, also one of the best.

[ultracapper]

can't hold me to this, but I thought I once heard that Denman makes $10k a day at DelMar

[Tape Reader]

These Guys are underpaid IMO.

[Stillriledup]

can't hold me to this, but I thought I once heard that Denman makes $10k a day at DelMar

if that's true i think i'm going to start honing my announcing skills.

[thaskalos]

These Guys are underpaid IMO.

Really? How much is that an hour?

[Alwaysonpoint36]

Nice triple in r1 at AQU, thanks TLG

[Cratos]

I was going from memory only; didn't Google it before posting. And yes, reported by the Times Union, I took it as factual. Though I'm off by 4K. Sorry for being incorrect.

Here's the report.

There's other comment about this being excessive. Still, Tom drove a hard bargain. Smart man. ;)

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/He-called-the-shots-and-the-races-5833759.php
Excessive? A major league baseball player works about 60% longer (excluding the playoffs) and earn according to Forbes about 8 times more with more days off during the season.

IMHO, Tom was UNDERPAID.

[jballscalls]

can't hold me to this, but I thought I once heard that Denman makes $10k a day at DelMar

I don't think we should hold you to this

[Tara73]

My compliments to Serling. I believe he has been doing well since leaving Saratoga. Take notice when a favorite isn't among his first 3 selections. Listen to his analysis and why he doesn't like the favorite. I don't think any other public handicapper goes where Serling goes and opens himself to criticism from people like me.

[Stillriledup]

My compliments to Serling. I believe he has been doing well since leaving Saratoga. Take notice when a favorite isn't among his first 3 selections. Listen to his analysis and why he doesn't like the favorite. I don't think any other public handicapper goes where Serling goes and opens himself to criticism from people like me.

I would think its the opposite, i think that if you pick 3-5 shots, you are open to be criticized, not sure people are going to be critical of someone taking a shot at a good looking mid ranged or long priced horse.

One of Andy's strengths is that he isn't afraid of picking a favorite if he thinks that horse is the right horse, there's a commentator on TVG who wants to appear sharp and picks bad longshots just to say he picked a longshot, Andy won't do that, if he likes a favorite, that's who he's picking.

[Tara73]

I would think its the opposite, i think that if you pick 3-5 shots, you are open to be criticized, not sure people are going to be critical of someone taking a shot at a good looking mid ranged or long priced horse.

One of Andy's strengths is that he isn't afraid of picking a favorite if he thinks that horse is the right horse, there's a commentator on TVG who wants to appear sharp and picks bad longshots just to say he picked a longshot, Andy won't do that, if he likes a favorite, that's who he's picking.

This is a good point. Serling would say he's not.going to pick against the favorite when there's no reason to like another horse. If he's not betting that other horse why pick it. All public handicappers should have this responsibility.

[Stillriledup]

Sorry for the bump, i want to mention to all the guys who are sick and tired of the jocks in NY 'going too slow' Andy pointed this out the other day on the MSG racing report show, this is the type of stuff that puts Andy ahead of most public handicappers/analysts, not everyone would have said this even if they were smart enough to notice it in the first place.

Great job by Andy calling attention to this 'Epidemic'.

[thaskalos]

Sorry for the bump, i want to mention to all the guys who are sick and tired of the jocks in NY 'going too slow' Andy pointed this out the other day on the MSG racing report show, this is the type of stuff that puts Andy ahead of most public handicappers/analysts, not everyone would have said this even if they were smart enough to notice it in the first place.

Great job by Andy calling attention to this 'Epidemic'.

Don't tell me that you are gonna start apologizing for the bumping of old threads now that you've surpassed 20,000 posts.

[Stillriledup]

Don't tell me that you are gonna start apologizing for the bumping of old threads now that you've surpassed 20,000 posts.

many really get personally and deeply offended if a post older than 3 hours gets bumped. Maybe one day ill figure out why this is the case.

[EMD4ME]

many really get personally and deeply offended if a post older than 3 hours gets bumped. Maybe one day ill figure out why this is the case.

Keep bumping! Especially when it applies.

Great point. Yes, Andy has been pointing it out and no he doesn't have to. He is to be commended.

It's great to watch and listen to Richard Migliore and Andy Serling point out politely just how terrible many of the NYRA rides are.

In my opinion, most of the NYRA colony should call WWE and ask for a job. They could choke each other out and get paid similar money.

And why not? Cornelio already has the most famous hammerlock in the world !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[classhandicapper]

The only possible solution to this problem is to consider riding styles in your evaluation of the likely race setup. Your job as a handicapper is to figure what is likely to happen, not what you think should happen.

Close to 40 years ago I used to try to find horses that had a speed edge and could shake loose. I'd whine every single time Jorge Velasquez took one of my speed horses back. I thought he was riding foolishly and should ride more like Cordero. Maybe I was right about how he should ride, but at a certain point it didn't matter. I was the idiot that kept betting him on speed horses expecting him to do something that didn't match his style of riding. Later, when Julie Krone adopted a similar style, I knew to temper my enthusiasm on a main speed when she rode one. I also knew I might be able to upgrade the chances of the other speed horse in a two speed race if she was riding one.

It's ridiculously tough to project these pace scenarios unless they are very extreme anyway. But it has to help if you adjust. You aren't going to get the riders to change.

[Harvhorse]

My opinion of why Andy is not talking up a lot of winners lately is simply that the races he has to deal with are either chaos, lesser of evils or too bad to have a strong opinion. Thats what I think. I follow what Newsday`s Matthews is doing and he`s not doing well either. To make money at Belmont now one needs a lot of patience to wait for spots where you have an opinion that most others do not like.

[EMD4ME]

My opinion of why Andy is not talking up a lot of winners lately is simply that the races he has to deal with are either chaos, lesser of evils or too bad to have a strong opinion. Thats what I think. I follow what Newsday`s Matthews is doing and he`s not doing well either. To make money at Belmont now one needs a lot of patience to wait for spots where you have an opinion that most others do not like.


Andy's analysis however has continued to be excellent, regardless of outcome. He doesn't seem to be "off" in his picks. I agree, he's had to obviously pick a lot of horses in crappy races (lesser of 5 evils in some cases).

Yes, you do need to wait and pass many races lately.

I love his comments about jockeys lately. Very proud of him for speaking up and calling it what it is out there.

[aaron]

The only possible solution to this problem is to consider riding styles in your evaluation of the likely race setup. Your job as a handicapper is to figure what is likely to happen, not what you think should happen.

Close to 40 years ago I used to try to find horses that had a speed edge and could shake loose. I'd whine every single time Jorge Velasquez took one of my speed horses back. I thought he was riding foolishly and should ride more like Cordero. Maybe I was right about how he should ride, but at a certain point it didn't matter. I was the idiot that kept betting him on speed horses expecting him to do something that didn't match his style of riding. Later, when Julie Krone adopted a similar style, I knew to temper my enthusiasm on a main speed when she rode one. I also knew I might be able to upgrade the chances of the other speed horse in a two speed race if she was riding one.

It's ridiculously tough to project these pace scenarios unless they are very extreme anyway. But it has to help if you adjust. You aren't going to get the riders to change.
A really good handicapper,once told me not to handicap races on what you think the jockey should,but be more cognizant of what the jockey will do.

[EMD4ME]

A really good handicapper,once told me not to handicap races on what you think the jockey should,but be more cognizant of what the jockey will do.


I do agree with that. The problem is these guys are so inconsistent. When you think they will choke, the send like gangbusters. When there's so much speed, they all choke to death. Then when there's just 1 speed, they all go at it. They do the opposite just often enough to make it impossible to bet according to what you think they will do.

[classhandicapper]

I do agree with that. The problem is these guys are so inconsistent. When you think they will choke, the send like gangbusters. When there's so much speed, they all choke to death. Then when there's just 1 speed, they all go at it. They do the opposite just often enough to make it impossible to bet according to what you think they will do.

I just did a study that encompassed 1 year of races at every racetrack in America broken down distance, surface, and the running style of each horse in the race. I had loads of data with various running style combinations to analyze.

My conclusion was, in general, it's really tough to predict the probable race flow correctly on a consistent basis unless it looks very extreme. Even then you will be wrong fairly often. I think if you put a lot of emphasis on probable race flow in marginal situations, you will feel brilliant when things go according to plan (which will encourage you), but there will be a boatload of races where you will be wrong.

I still look at the running styles and riders to try figure it out, but I put less emphasis on my predictions now when I am thinking about the fair odds.

[aaron]

I just did a study that encompassed 1 year of races at every racetrack in America broken down distance, surface, and the running style of each horse in the race. I had loads of data with various running style combinations to analyze.

My conclusion was, in general, it's really tough to predict the probable race flow correctly on a consistent basis unless it looks very extreme. Even then you will be wrong fairly often. I think if you put a lot of emphasis on probable race flow in marginal situations, you will feel brilliant when things go according to plan (which will encourage you), but there will be a boatload of races where you will be wrong.

I still look at the running styles and riders to try figure it out, but I put less emphasis on my predictions now when I am thinking about the fair odds.
I agree, if you are going to base your bets on what you think the flow will be,your bottom line is in trouble.On a long range basis,it just doesn't work out. There is so much more involved in a bet. For instance,betting Jacobson,the last few weeks is a big losing preposition.Betting Rudy,just as bad unless you caught one or both of his bombs. Linda Rice has also been off,the last couple of weeks. Looking at the trainers,is probably more important than the flow. I feel one of the hardest things to do in racing is eliminating cold trainers,no matter how good their horses look,especially at short prices. What makes this even harder is that the trainer pattern of the cold trainer can be a positive move.

[NY BRED]

So, now this 'new' style of riding has been made public by TLG
and most members on this board are in agreement, where is
the due diligence from the Stewards/ and NYRA .

Oh, I forgot, the acting president is on a 'temporary" leave of
absence, and the voting for HPBA president is being contested,
and on and on and on...

[Stillriledup]

So, now this 'new' style of riding has been made public by TLG
and most members on this board are in agreement, where is
the due diligence from the Stewards/ and NYRA .

Oh, I forgot, the acting president is on a 'temporary" leave of
absence, and the voting for HPBA president is being contested,
and on and on and on...

There would only be due diligence if the track cared about the bettors.

[SandyW]

There would only be due diligence if the track cared about the bettors.

Agreed, NYRA, care about the bettors, that is the very last thing on their list.

[Stillriledup]

Agreed, NYRA, care about the bettors, that is the very last thing on their list.

Is it even ON the list?

[classhandicapper]

I can't agree with where this is going. I agree that the riders aren't very aggressive and it complicates the analysis sometimes, but that's it.

As bettors, we are entitled to disagree with the strategies riders use. I do all the time too. But these guys are doing what they think will maximize their chances of earning a good check.

They legitimately think that backing down the pace and saving their horse for the end is better than using his speed to open up clear lengths. I disagree with that, but Jorge Velasquez, Pat Day, Julie Krone and other greats often rode the same way.

They are looking at the PPs and trying to avoid duels when they see a lot of speed in the race.

They are concluding that it makes no sense to chase the dominant speed, use their horse up, and finish off the board, when they can sit, maybe not win, but secure second and a better check. If I owned a horse, that's exactly what I'd tell my rider to do. In fact, I always thought it was idiotic when riders would sacrifice their horse keeping the best speed honest and blow a check altogether for themselves.

There's nothing unethical about what the riders are doing and nothing for NYRA to address . It's on us as players to deal the riding styles of the local jockeys and adjust our thinking - even when we disagree with them and are boiling because we think they did something stupid. That's the way it has always been.

[cj]

I can't agree with where this is going. I agree that the riders aren't very aggressive and it complicates the analysis sometimes, but that's it.

As bettors, we are entitled to disagree with the strategies riders use. I do all the time too. But these guys are doing what they think will maximize their chances of earning a good check.

They legitimately think that backing down the pace and saving their horse for the end is better than using his speed to open up clear lengths. I disagree with that, but Jorge Velasquez, Pat Day, Julie Krone and other greats often rode the same way.

They are looking at the PPs and trying to avoid duels when they see a lot of speed in the race.

They are concluding that it makes no sense to chase the dominant speed, use their horse up, and finish off the board, when they can sit, maybe not win, but secure second and a better check. If I owned a horse, that's exactly what I'd tell my rider to do. In fact, I always thought it was idiotic when riders would sacrifice their horse keeping the best speed honest and blow a check altogether for themselves.

There's nothing unethical about what the riders are doing and nothing for NYRA to address . It's on us as players to deal the riding styles of the local jockeys and adjust our thinking - even when we disagree with them and are boiling because we think they did something stupid. That's the way it has always been.

I thought riders are supposed to be riding to win, not get a check? Seriously, am I wrong?

[Robert Goren]

I thought riders are supposed to be riding to win, not get a check? Seriously, am I wrong?You thought wrong!

[aaron]

I thought riders are supposed to be riding to win, not get a check? Seriously, am I wrong?
I agree,but what if they are riding to trainers instructions. The game seems to be going in the wrong direction.

[cj]

I agree,but what if they are riding to trainers instructions. The game seems to be going in the wrong direction.

I don't doubt they are. The money for purses exploded in NY and it has had an effect.

[no breathalyzer]

i think the subject has been way overblown personally... a jockey blazing from an outside post yet not clearing actually tics me off more

[EMD4ME]

I can't agree with where this is going. I agree that the riders aren't very aggressive and it complicates the analysis sometimes, but that's it.

As bettors, we are entitled to disagree with the strategies riders use. I do all the time too. But these guys are doing what they think will maximize their chances of earning a good check.

They legitimately think that backing down the pace and saving their horse for the end is better than using his speed to open up clear lengths. I disagree with that, but Jorge Velasquez, Pat Day, Julie Krone and other greats often rode the same way.

They are looking at the PPs and trying to avoid duels when they see a lot of speed in the race.

They are concluding that it makes no sense to chase the dominant speed, use their horse up, and finish off the board, when they can sit, maybe not win, but secure second and a better check. If I owned a horse, that's exactly what I'd tell my rider to do. In fact, I always thought it was idiotic when riders would sacrifice their horse keeping the best speed honest and blow a check altogether for themselves.

There's nothing unethical about what the riders are doing and nothing for NYRA to address . It's on us as players to deal the riding styles of the local jockeys and adjust our thinking - even when we disagree with them and are boiling because we think they did something stupid. That's the way it has always been.

http://www.emeralddowns.com/subcontent.aspx?SecID=1010

I could easily use 10000000 examples of how a pin head trying to "save horse to get a check" on a true speed ball completely costs his owner/trainer/himself ANY CHECK by choking out a speed ball at NYRA.

However, I will use one at Emerald to make my point. Emerald is one of the few tracks where you don't see the pin heads choking and rating. It has a somewhat deserved speed biased reputation so jocks are sending.

Sunday had a $50,000 Stakes race as the feature, which is pretty hefty for them over there.

The 8 was a complete speed horse, an E1 who was stretching to a mile for the first time. His prep for this race was awesome, for EMD standards. He sprinted to a quick lead, was passed at the 1/8 pole, he REBROKE, rerallied and lost by a nose. Galloped out 10 in front on the Clubhouse turn.

He was the main speed Sunday. Projected a 3 length lead cruising and based upon his prep was a lock to wire comfortably, despite going a mile for the first time. (Horses are better equipped to get a mile for the first time at a track like Emerald compared to a one turn mile at Aqueduct)

I hate, with a sincere passion, Julien Couton. The riding colony at Emerald has been very good. I rarely if ever go crazy over a ride there, except for Eliska Kubinova, who is terrible. He came to Emerald and is creating and spreading a disease over there. It's the rate everything everywhere everytime regardless of situation mentality. It repulses me that these guys/gals can't make "If/then" decisions out of the gate. Are they truly that mentally challenged and need to follow one set of instructions? I learned about a month ago to ignore the style of any horse Couton rides. It will be a rate job all the time.

This specific horse was given zero shot for a check. Coupon, as I call him because that's all he's worth as a rider, had his ASS cheeks bounce of the saddle twice before the clubhouse turn. As these pin heads always do, he found more trouble (besides throwing the race away at the gate) by bottling the horse up behind a dead horse on the backstretch and finally not asking his mount till the race was completely over at the 5/16th's.

It's rides like this that make me want to not bet. It's jocks like this that should be banned from the game.

The opening quarter for this race was snail like, 24, which by Emerald standards is a 25 2/5-26 anywhere else.

Hong Kong would've taken action like they did with David Flores. We never get that here.

It's repulsive.

Now, if anyone tells me, he did what he thought was his best chance to win, I'll tell you what I tell others: I was born during the day but not yesterday.

If anyone says he as trying to get a check, I was born during the day but not yesterday...

[classhandicapper]

I thought riders are supposed to be riding to win, not get a check? Seriously, am I wrong?

I agree. And generally, if you ride to win you are doing the right thing.

Let's say you are facing American Pharoah in the Travers. You have a speed horse than generally needs the lead to win. You believe if you challenge him you are almost certain to finish off the board. If you sit, you will almost never pass him, but you may pick up 2nd or 3rd money.

1. Should you potentially commit suicide trying to outrun and wire him because a few handicappers think that's your best chance to win and they have pace figures and running style data that makes them think there's going to be a fast pace?

2. Should you sit, understand that you won't beat AP if he fires his A race anyway, pray that for some unforeseen reason he goes off form and you do win, but settle for 2nd or 3rd a lot of the time?

I don't think there's anything illogical about avoiding that suicide even if some disgruntled handicapper thinks your best option was to gun or he projected a fast pace and lost a bet because it wound up being slow. You do what you think in your own interests weighing the risks and rewards.

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.emeralddowns.com/subcontent.aspx?SecID=1010

I could easily use 10000000 examples of how a pin head trying to "save horse to get a check" on a true speed ball completely costs his owner/trainer/himself ANY CHECK by choking out a speed ball at NYRA.

However, I will use one at Emerald to make my point. Emerald is one of the few tracks where you don't see the pin heads choking and rating. It has a somewhat deserved speed biased reputation so jocks are sending.

Sunday had a $50,000 Stakes race as the feature, which is pretty hefty for them over there.

The 8 was a complete speed horse, an E1 who was stretching to a mile for the first time. His prep for this race was awesome, for EMD standards. He sprinted to a quick lead, was passed at the 1/8 pole, he REBROKE, rerallied and lost by a nose. Galloped out 10 in front on the Clubhouse turn.

He was the main speed Sunday. Projected a 3 length lead cruising and based upon his prep was a lock to wire comfortably, despite going a mile for the first time. (Horses are better equipped to get a mile for the first time at a track like Emerald compared to a one turn mile at Aqueduct)

I hate, with a sincere passion, Julien Couton. The riding colony at Emerald has been very good. I rarely if ever go crazy over a ride there, except for Eliska Kubinova, who is terrible. He came to Emerald and is creating and spreading a disease over there. It's the rate everything everywhere everytime regardless of situation mentality. It repulses me that these guys/gals can't make "If/then" decisions out of the gate. Are they truly that mentally challenged and need to follow one set of instructions? I learned about a month ago to ignore the style of any horse Couton rides. It will be a rate job all the time.

This specific horse was given zero shot for a check. Coupon, as I call him because that's all he's worth as a rider, had his ASS cheeks bounce of the saddle twice before the clubhouse turn. As these pin heads always do, he found more trouble (besides throwing the race away at the gate) by bottling the horse up behind a dead horse on the backstretch and finally not asking his mount till the race was completely over at the 5/16th's.

It's rides like this that make me want to not bet. It's jocks like this that should be banned from the game.

The opening quarter for this race was snail like, 24, which by Emerald standards is a 25 2/5-26 anywhere else.

Hong Kong would've taken action like they did with David Flores. We never get that here.

It's repulsive.

Now, if anyone tells me, he did what he thought was his best chance to win, I'll tell you what I tell others: I was born during the day but not yesterday.

If anyone says he as trying to get a check, I was born during the day but not yesterday...There is no arguing with you, so I suggest nobody try...it will only get ugly.

I find you way over the top on many subjects. This being one of them.

[EMD4ME]

And for the record, in my humble opinion, there are many riders out at NYRA who are pathetically trying to emulate the greatest rider in the last 20 years:

Ramon Dominguez.

However, these pin heads are failing to realize that Ramon was a 5 tool jockey. (to use a baseball analogy). Ramon looked to be choking and sitting back but he in fact wasn't. Ramon had the best hands and jockey stance that I have ever seen. He was the most balanced, transparent jock (you don't notice his horse shaking it's head/fighting the jock) I will probably ever see. He sent horses many times (burned me on a $50,000 pick 6 by sending a closer to the lead at Belmont one day on a speed biased track) and even when he blazed along, it looked like the horse was jogging as he has the softest and most intelligent hands ever seen by my 2 eyes on a jock. Ramon knew the breaking point of his hold, meaning he knew the exact strength point of when to let loose before a horse gets rank.

These pin heads are trying to emulate his rate/save ground style and it needs to stop. Ramon studied like an animal, his agent studied like an animal and they knew as much as they could about every horse in the field. He was a master at "If/then scenarios" from the break.

These pin heads have no clue how to think in an IF/Then format.

I can't say with any definite certainty that any of this true. Just my suspicion.
Half of them aren't even smart enough to try and emulate Ramon. One out there is: Iherd Ortiz and he needs to realize he will never ever be able to be like Ramon.

[classhandicapper]

http://www.emeralddowns.com/subcontent.aspx?SecID=1010

I could easily use 10000000 examples of how a pin head trying to "save horse to get a check" on a true speed ball completely costs his owner/trainer/himself ANY CHECK by choking out a speed ball at NYRA.



You are expressing an opinion as a handicapper that I agree with. However, I saw Jorge Velasquez, Julie Krone, and Pat Day disagree with me on a routine basis on their way to fame and enormous success choking. All I did was complain and rip up tickets.

I keep sending twitter messages to Carmelo Anthony telling him to stop taking long 2 point jumpers because it's more efficient to take the 3. He doesn't pay attention to me either. ;)

[EMD4ME]

There is no arguing with you, so I suggest nobody try...it will only get ugly.

I like debates :) And I sincerely do respect everyone's opinion. Life is a marathon and every day is an opportunity to learn. I'm all for it.

[PaceAdvantage]

And of course the ever present Ramon Dominguez love fest post by EMD4ME...we get it...he was a great jock...

[PaceAdvantage]

I like debates :) And I sincerely do respect everyone's opinion. Life is a marathon and every day is an opportunity to learn. I'm all for it.There's no debating with someone whose perpetual undertone to his jockey posts are that these guys are riding the way they are because they are cheating or stiffing or doing whatever unsavory things jocks are always accused of...

Witness your repeated "I was born during the day, but not yesterday."

Really man...all this illegal stuff going on right under all our noses....thanks for being the one beacon of light in this dark, dark world...

[EMD4ME]

You are expressing an opinion as a handicapper that I agree with but that I saw Jorge Velasquez, Julie Krone, and Pat Day disagree with on a routine basis on their way fame and enormous success choking.

I keep sending twitter messages to Carmelo Anthony telling him to stop taking long 2 point jumpers because it's more efficient to take the 3. He doesn't pay attention to me either.

I just adjust and bet accordingly. The times I get irritated are times a pin head takes a complete need the lead speed ball who is the main speed and choke them to death.

Am i crazy to get nuts in those scenarios?

[EMD4ME]

There's no debating with someone whose perpetual undertone to his jockey posts are that these guys are riding the way they are because they are cheating or stiffing or doing whatever unsavory things jocks are always accused of...

Witness your repeated "I was born during the day, but not yesterday."

Really man...all this illegal stuff going on right under all our noses....thanks for being the one beacon of light in this dark, dark world...

Don't shoot the messenger please. It is what is. The game has many crooks, jocks are unethical (not 100% of the time but sometimes) and yes I hate to break the news to you but jocks do stiff horses.

I don't need to shed any light. Any real horseplayer that has spent more than 2 weeks playing horses knows that the game isn't what you portray it to be.

If anyone out there is playing this game and thinks all jocks are 100% ethical, all trainers don't juice, all stewards always have the public at mind then god I feel sorry for them.

Do they also think the tooth fairy will come with a $2 dollar bill when they lose their next tooth? :lol: I mean come on.

Now, let's play devil's advocate and let's assume that what you say is true: That jocks are always savory and ethical people who make every attempt to make the most money for their trainer/owner and absolutely no shenanigans goes on ever.

Then....these must be some of the worst jockeys ever created then, no?

Finally, I have ZERO problem with jocks/trainers not trying with a horse because they are prepping for a race down the line, it's their first race off a layoff, first time starter, the horse needs more speed sharpening etc. etc.

What I do have a problem with is when you get the out of no where stiff job that makes you say: hhhmmm...how much did they make in wagers off that race?

Oh, coincidentally, in that same Emerald Race. The third choice (the eventual winner) opened 1/1 and was crushed in the betting. The 8, the obvious chalk opened dead on the board. Still think no one knew Coupon was going to choke out the only speed chalk and that wasn't done on purpose?

[EMD4ME]

And of course the ever present Ramon Dominguez love fest post by EMD4ME...we get it...he was a great jock...


Yes he sure was.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't shoot the messenger please. It is what is. The game has many crooks, jocks are unethical (not 100% of the time but sometimes) and yes I hate to break the news to you but jocks do stiff horses.

I don't need to shed any light. Any real horseplayer that has spent more than 2 weeks playing horses knows that the game isn't what you portray it to be.

If anyone out there is playing this game and thinks all jocks are 100% ethical, all trainers don't juice, all stewards always have the public at mind then god I feel sorry for them.

Do they also think the tooth fairy will come with a $2 dollar bill when they lose their next tooth? :lol: I mean come on.

Now, let's play devil's advocate and let's assume that what you say is true: That jocks are always savory and ethical people who make every attempt to make the most money for their trainer/owner and absolutely no shenanigans goes on ever.

Then....these must be some of the worst jockeys ever created then, no?

Finally, I have ZERO problem with jocks/trainers not trying with a horse because they are prepping for a race down the line, it's their first race off a layoff, first time starter, the horse needs more speed sharpening etc. etc.

What I do have a problem with is when you get the out of no where stiff job that makes you say: hhhmmm...how much did they make in wagers off that race?

Oh, coincidentally, in that same Emerald Race. The third choice (the eventual winner) opened 1/1 and was crushed in the betting. The 8, the obvious chalk opened dead on the board. Still think no one knew Coupon was going to choke out the only speed chalk and that wasn't done on purpose?Your first major error in this reply was in putting all those words in my mouth. I never once stated any of the things you accuse me of stating or believing.

No further need to debate...like I said before, it doesn't work out with you when you're so over the top like this.

[classhandicapper]

I just adjust and bet accordingly. The times I get irritated are times a pin head takes a complete need the lead speed ball who is the main speed and choke them to death.

Am i crazy to get nuts in those scenarios?

If I call you crazy I would be admitting I am crazy.

I'm trying to adjust my game and that's all I'm advising other people to do because I can't think of anything better. Crazy doesn't work. :lol:

[classhandicapper]

Yes he sure was.

At least we all agree on something. ;)

[whodoyoulike]

... Sunday had a $50,000 Stakes race as the feature, which is pretty hefty for them over there.

The 8 was a complete speed horse, an E1 who was stretching to a mile for the first time...

I hate, with a sincere passion, Julien Couton. The riding colony at Emerald has been very good. I rarely if ever go crazy over a ride there, except for Eliska Kubinova, who is terrible...

I learned about a month ago to ignore the style of any horse Couton rides. It will be a rate job all the time.

This specific horse was given zero shot for a check. Coupon, as I call him because that's all he's worth as a rider, had his ASS cheeks bounce of the saddle twice before the clubhouse turn. As these pin heads always do, he found more trouble (besides throwing the race away at the gate) by bottling the horse up behind a dead horse on the backstretch and finally not asking his mount till the race was completely over at the 5/16th's.

It's rides like this that make me want to not bet. It's jocks like this that should be banned from the game.

The opening quarter for this race was snail like, 24, which by Emerald standards is a 25 2/5-26 anywhere else.

Hong Kong would've taken action like they did with David Flores. We never get that here.

It's repulsive.

Now, if anyone tells me, he did what he thought was his best chance to win, I'll tell you what I tell others: I was born during the day but not yesterday.

If anyone says he as trying to get a check, I was born during the day but not yesterday...

I just reviewed race 9 at EMD for 06/28/15 and I didn't notice any choking by the jockey on the :8:. It appeared the jock was trying and the horse never was in the lead at any point in the race. The horse just didn't seem good enough.

[PaceAdvantage]

As others have said: grabbing my popcorn for this one.

[CosmicWon]

I'm not playing much NYRA these days but not because of perceived egregious rides but rather the quality of races stink while the wisdom of the people who play that circuit daily seems almost insurmountable. Playing much more California recently but that'll end when Ellis opens on Friday!

Anyway, I find it rather tacky and DISAPPOINTING that Andy is INCESSANT with his passive-aggressive attacks on riders not just in public but on social media so thousands can read his snide subtweeting.

I typically am a big Serling fan but his public crusade to call out jockeys has gotten unprofessional. If it's really bothering him THAT much, why doesn't he just go say something to them directly like an adult?

Please Andy, I'll say it to you directly here--just go talk to the riders or their agents already about your concerns. Your current approach is clearly ineffective and it's not like you don't, ya know, work alongside these guys daily.

Be a mentor or coach providing constructive criticism rather than just moaning into space because frankly I'm tired of only hearing complaining from you rather than than the deep insights you used to deliver before this current cause célèbre.

Think of all the good you could do for your circuit and its mediocre riding by just going to the riders themselves and leaving the rest of us out of it. Because PS every time we see you you b$tch and moan about bad rides it just give us more reason to NOT bet your races.

Namaste... But seriously the passive-aggressive shade is THE WORST and plays really amateurish on social media. Try a little less Donald Trump and a little more Coach K please. Thanks :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Please Andy, I'll say it to you directly here--just go talk to the riders or their agents already about your concerns. Your current approach is clearly ineffective and it's not like you don't, ya know, work alongside these guys daily.

Be a mentor or coach providing constructive criticism rather than just moaning into space because frankly I'm tired of only hearing complaining from you rather than than the deep insights you used to deliver before this current cause célèbre.

Think of all the good you could do for your circuit and its mediocre riding by just going to the riders themselves and leaving the rest of us out of it. Because PS every time we see you you b$tch and moan about bad rides it just give us more reason to NOT bet your races.

Namaste... But seriously the passive-aggressive shade is THE WORST and plays really amateurish on social media. Try a little less Donald Trump and a little more Coach K please. Thanks :)Well, now hold on here just a minute. Do you have it on some authority that Andy DOESN'T go to them directly and doesn't try and mentor or coach some of the less experienced jocks?

No, you don't...that's obvious...but you come off as if you do...

That's just not cool at all.

[Robert Fischer]

I'm not playing much NYRA these days but not because of perceived egregious rides but rather the quality of races stink while the wisdom of the people who play that circuit daily seems almost insurmountable. Playing much more California recently but that'll end when Ellis opens on Friday!

Anyway, I find it rather tacky and DISAPPOINTING that Andy is INCESSANT with his passive-aggressive attacks on riders not just in public but on social media so thousands can read his snide subtweeting.

I typically am a big Serling fan but his public crusade to call out jockeys has gotten unprofessional. If it's really bothering him THAT much, why doesn't he just go say something to them directly like an adult?

Please Andy, I'll say it to you directly here--just go talk to the riders or their agents already about your concerns. Your current approach is clearly ineffective and it's not like you don't, ya know, work alongside these guys daily.

Be a mentor or coach providing constructive criticism rather than just moaning into space because frankly I'm tired of only hearing complaining from you rather than than the deep insights you used to deliver before this current cause célèbre.

Think of all the good you could do for your circuit and its mediocre riding by just going to the riders themselves and leaving the rest of us out of it. Because PS every time we see you you b$tch and moan about bad rides it just give us more reason to NOT bet your races.

Namaste... But seriously the passive-aggressive shade is THE WORST and plays really amateurish on social media. Try a little less Donald Trump and a little more Coach K please. Thanks :)

Assuming what you say is a significant issue, why would a media figure not use the media to get his point across and leverage whatever small influence he may have?? There is no 'code of chivalry' where a media figure is supposed to 'lay down his arms' and approach someone in person, and then tell them how to do their job, - other than in your imagination.

[Stillriledup]

I'm not playing much NYRA these days but not because of perceived egregious rides but rather the quality of races stink while the wisdom of the people who play that circuit daily seems almost insurmountable. Playing much more California recently but that'll end when Ellis opens on Friday!

Anyway, I find it rather tacky and DISAPPOINTING that Andy is INCESSANT with his passive-aggressive attacks on riders not just in public but on social media so thousands can read his snide subtweeting.

I typically am a big Serling fan but his public crusade to call out jockeys has gotten unprofessional. If it's really bothering him THAT much, why doesn't he just go say something to them directly like an adult?

Please Andy, I'll say it to you directly here--just go talk to the riders or their agents already about your concerns. Your current approach is clearly ineffective and it's not like you don't, ya know, work alongside these guys daily.

Be a mentor or coach providing constructive criticism rather than just moaning into space because frankly I'm tired of only hearing complaining from you rather than than the deep insights you used to deliver before this current cause célèbre.

Think of all the good you could do for your circuit and its mediocre riding by just going to the riders themselves and leaving the rest of us out of it. Because PS every time we see you you b$tch and moan about bad rides it just give us more reason to NOT bet your races.

Namaste... But seriously the passive-aggressive shade is THE WORST and plays really amateurish on social media. Try a little less Donald Trump and a little more Coach K please. Thanks :)

It would only be unprofessional if he wasn't dead right. Everything Andy has said is so embedded in truth and is so far removed from being anything close to wrong, why would you call out andy on this issue when he's the only racing analyst who is saying anything about it?

It's not Andy's place to 'mentor' these guys I'm not sure how you came up with that one.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's not Andy's place to 'mentor' these guys I'm not sure how you came up with that one.How do you know what Andy's "place" is or what his responsibilities are when he's not on camera?

[cnollfan]

I played # 1 in the aforementioned Emerald race as it did appear to set up for a closer. On paper, it was hard not envisioning # 8 as an early pace factor.

[Stillriledup]

How do you know what Andy's "place" is or what his responsibilities are when he's not on camera?

I dont know his "place" but what does that have to do with what i posted?

[EMD4ME]

Your first major error in this reply was in putting all those words in my mouth. I never once stated any of the things you accuse me of stating or believing.

No further need to debate...like I said before, it doesn't work out with you when you're so over the top like this.

I apologize if I put words in your mouth.

Question: Didn't you accuse me of having an underlying tone (that is some cases jocks do stiff?)?

Isn't that also inferring that you are of the belief that stiffs never happen?

I am wrong many many many times PA. All I ask is that you correct me if I'm wrong and in this case, isn't that how you feel?

How often do you think larceny driven rides occur? Let's start there if you don't mind.

[EMD4ME]

If I call you crazy I would be admitting I am crazy.

I'm trying to adjust my game and that's all I'm advising other people to do because I can't think of anything better. Crazy doesn't work. :lol:

:D I hear ya.

Same thing I do. I don't assume any jock will send with a speed horse. I weigh the possibility of them not sending and how it could effect the dynamics. In most cases, I pass because the pace is a complete question mark.

It's those black and white pace scenarios that don't work out black and white that irk me. Example: 12 horse field in a 6F turf sprint, 7 horses need the lead and only 1 sends, 6 others choke the life out of their mounts :bang:

[EMD4ME]

As others have said: grabbing my popcorn for this one.

Before I reply to him.......

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You give me too much credit PA.....

[PaceAdvantage]

I apologize if I put words in your mouth.

Question: Didn't you accuse me of having an underlying tone (that is some cases jocks do stiff?)?

Isn't that also inferring that you are of the belief that stiffs never happen?

I am wrong many many many times PA. All I ask is that you correct me if I'm wrong and in this case, isn't that how you feel?

How often do you think larceny driven rides occur? Let's start there if you don't mind.Accusing you of having an underlying tone that not just some, but a LOT of jocks stiff...not sure how that infers that I think stiffs never happen.

Think about that and read it again. It makes absolutely no sense.

I don't concern myself all that much with potential "larceny driven rides" so I have no answer for you. I'm sure they happen...hell, I'm the one on this board that told everyone that jocks using batteries in the mornings happens WAY MORE THAN ANYONE THINKS, even at the big time tracks.

It's not something I have any control over, so I don't let it bother me to the point that I post about it every week or so here...

But for you to take my reply to you to mean I think it never happens...that's just absurd. And I was shocked to read that coming from you, because believe it or not, I like you most of the time... :lol:

[Tom]

Hats off to Andy for calling it the way it is.:ThmbUp:
Now, if we could just the Mig to ask some of these riders point blank why they screwed up the race. All interviews do not have to the usual milk and cookies routine. Hard hitting questions might shame one or two of them into really riding.

[EMD4ME]

I just reviewed race 9 at EMD for 06/28/15 and I didn't notice any choking by the jockey on the :8:. It appeared the jock was trying and the horse never was in the lead at any point in the race. The horse just didn't seem good enough.

I don't know if you're just trying to get a reaction or if your serious. Just in case you are serious:

1) Watch the head on (Emerald is kind enough to show the head on and the pan in the opening stages of the race).

2) When you see a jockey's forearms pulling inwards, towards their chest AND a horses head is tilted inward, that means they're being rated down hard.

3) When you see a jockey's ASS go from high up in the air to slamming downward on the saddle, that also means the jockey is choking SO hard he can't keep his balance straight, hence he loses his balance (as the horse fights the bit) and slams his ASS backward. GO TO THE .23 SECOND MARK for the visual example.

I'm sure after you give this a second look, you'll see otherwise.

[EMD4ME]

I played # 1 in the aforementioned Emerald race as it did appear to set up for a closer. On paper, it was hard not envisioning # 8 as an early pace factor.

Logic is not allowed here in many cases :) Please don't attach yourself to me, it won't be healthy for you :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But yes, for anyone that has 2 eyes, knows what a DRF looks like, that was an obvious needs the lead and WILL be on the lead even if hell freezes over kinda horse.

[mountainman]

I can't agree with where this is going. I agree that the riders aren't very aggressive and it complicates the analysis sometimes, but that's it.

As bettors, we are entitled to disagree with the strategies riders use. I do all the time too. But these guys are doing what they think will maximize their chances of earning a good check.

They legitimately think that backing down the pace and saving their horse for the end is better than using his speed to open up clear lengths. I disagree with that, but Jorge Velasquez, Pat Day, Julie Krone and other greats often rode the same way.

They are looking at the PPs and trying to avoid duels when they see a lot of speed in the race.

They are concluding that it makes no sense to chase the dominant speed, use their horse up, and finish off the board, when they can sit, maybe not win, but secure second and a better check. If I owned a horse, that's exactly what I'd tell my rider to do. In fact, I always thought it was idiotic when riders would sacrifice their horse keeping the best speed honest and blow a check altogether for themselves.

There's nothing unethical about what the riders are doing and nothing for NYRA to address . It's on us as players to deal the riding styles of the local jockeys and adjust our thinking - even when we disagree with them and are boiling because we think they did something stupid. That's the way it has always been.

To my experience, prominent jocks not desperate for the next win sometimes desire to upstage their own mounts. That is, to be seen, rather than the horse, as the reason for victory. This generally involves over-patience and gearing down early, potentially even at the expense of winning. I call it the "Hey watch me wait, hey watch me rate" syndrome.

[EMD4ME]

There's no debating with someone whose perpetual undertone to his jockey posts are that these guys are riding the way they are because they are cheating or stiffing or doing whatever unsavory things jocks are always accused of...

Witness your repeated "I was born during the day, but not yesterday."

Really man...all this illegal stuff going on right under all our noses....thanks for being the one beacon of light in this dark, dark world...

PA, this was your original response to me. Was it not reasonable of me to infer that based upon your words you:

1) You don't believe there are shenanigans going on out there in many races?

2) You discredited my example because EMD4ME must be nuts as he thinks horses are stiffed sometimes?

For the record, before you ask, I love this game despite the larceny. Yes, I do still bet it despite the larceny.

[EMD4ME]

Accusing you of having an underlying tone that not just some, but a LOT of jocks stiff...not sure how that infers that I think stiffs never happen.

Think about that and read it again. It makes absolutely no sense.

I don't concern myself all that much with potential "larceny driven rides" so I have no answer for you. I'm sure they happen...hell, I'm the one on this board that told everyone that jocks using batteries in the mornings happens WAY MORE THAN ANYONE THINKS, even at the big time tracks.

It's not something I have any control over, so I don't let it bother me to the point that I post about it every week or so here...

But for you to take my reply to you to mean I think it never happens...that's just absurd. And I was shocked to read that coming from you, because believe it or not, I like you most of the time... :lol:

If I misinterpreted what you said, then again my apologies PA. I'll agree to disagree on this one pal.

I know it doesn't bother you that much (because you don't have control over it) but as a player of PICK 4's 5's 6's it is extremely agitating to lose $35,000-$50,000-$200,000 because of a blatant screw job/bad ride.

Mind you please, all I was doing was citing an example of a terrible ride in response to a poster's theory as to why jock's hold back.

For the record:

If you ask me, I'll tell you that in my opinion, 60%-80% of bad rides are pure incompetency. The other 20%-40% I consider shady.

Shady-Emerald Race 9 Sunday.

Incompetent-See post #1 in the Subtly Terrible Rides thread-NYRA Fall stakes fesitival. Joel Rosario leaving gold rail open and going 5 wide while on the lead jogging comfortably. Paco Lopez leaving the gold rail unnecessarily etc.

[EMD4ME]

To my experience, prominent jocks not desperate for the next win sometimes desire to upstage their own mounts. That is, to be seen, rather than the horse, as the reason for victory. This generally involves over-patience and gearing down early, potentially even at the expense of winning. I call it the "Hey watch me wait, hey watch me rate" syndrome.

Appreciate the feedback Mountainman. This syndrome is very annoying to some players. Regardless, it's something as a handicapper, we need to factor in and work with.

[EMD4ME]

Hats off to Andy for calling it the way it is.:ThmbUp:
Now, if we could just the Mig to ask some of these riders point blank why they screwed up the race. All interviews do not have to the usual milk and cookies routine. Hard hitting questions might shame one or two of them into really riding.

ABSOLUTELY hats off to Andy. Other Public Horse Figures would ignore it, never mention it, compliment the pin heads unnecessarily and compound the issue.

Richard is extremely professional on air on Trips & Traps. He does many times call out the jock for an inexcusable ride. I would love to watch them grill a jock. Won't happen as I don't see a jock be willing to do the interview.

[whodoyoulike]

...
3) When you see a jockey's ASS go from high up in the air to slamming downward on the saddle, that also means the jockey is choking SO hard he can't keep his balance straight, hence he loses his balance (as the horse fights the bit) and slams his ASS backward. GO TO THE .23 SECOND MARK for the visual example.

I'm sure after you give this a second look, you'll see otherwise.


Just watched it again and I saw the up and down jockey motion. The announcer right after this occurs says of the :8: "relaxed in the fourth position". Then down the backstretch says "is pretty keen to go on".

Your interpretation at the :23 second mark is just incorrect.

[EMD4ME]

Just watched it again and I saw the up and down jockey motion. The announcer right after this occurs says of the :8: "relaxed in the fourth position". Then down the backstretch says "is pretty keen to go on".

Your interpretation at the :23 second mark is just incorrect.

Everything you just (except for the .23 second mark comment) said is supporting my point, not sure if you realize that.

So, please tell me, what happened at the .23 mark of the video? Now, maybe I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about the 23rd second into the race. I am referring to the 23rd second of the video replay (or in this case the 11th second of the race, as they dispatched at the 12th second mark of the video).

At the 11th second of the race (23 rd second of the video), the 8's race was already over pal. Not sure if you get that. If you don't see that Couton was not urging and at the same time rating down this horse, I hope you hit the lotto, keep betting horses and fatten up those pools for us.

You mentioned early that he asked the horse and there wasn't a response or something to that effect. Do you realize, that with any need the leader, the paramount part of this discussion is the first 10 seconds of the race? They are not going to make up 5 lengths from the 5th spot into the fastest quarter of the race while the stalkers have had a had start on the need the leader. Especially in their first route attempt and a joke of a pace in front of them.

I am only talking about the first 10 seconds of the race. A horse can lose their entire race in the first stride of the race and in the first furlong. That is what Couton did to this horse.

Yes, I mentioned what happened later on the race but at that point the race was over for the horse.

Couton's ride was similar to what happens in the WWE. Wrestler goes out there, says he CANT LOSE. Makes a big show but takes the fall for the chosen one.

In this case, he Loses the race in the first few strides, then makes believe he's trying with an alllllll out drive on the far turn so he can say, "hey guys, I gave it my all". Yeah Couton, the smart way to ride a need the leader, is to rate them down to death, 6 back off of a pedestrian pace, bury them behind a dead piece on the backstretch, let the hot money horse make the first move, open up 5 and THEN when the quickest quarter of the race comes up, start riding to death. You'll be sure to make up the 9 lengths.... :liar:

As far as referring to the announcer....He is brand new at this. He is not even seasoned enough to pick up on the fact the only speed was rated down to death in the opening 10 seconds of the race.

If Robert Geller was calling, believe me, he would've pointed out how Ethan's Allen was "utilizing different tactics today" or "Ethan's Allen is going to attempt something new today" or something else that's professional but pointing out the obvious.

Finally, you can hear the announcer stumble, pause and almost be at a loss of words for a second when he realized the 8 was NOT on the lead and running in 4th, despite him being new at this.

[ultracapper]

I agree. And generally, if you ride to win you are doing the right thing.

Let's say you are facing American Pharoah in the Travers. You have a speed horse than generally needs the lead to win. You believe if you challenge him you are almost certain to finish off the board. If you sit, you will almost never pass him, but you may pick up 2nd or 3rd money.

1. Should you potentially commit suicide trying to outrun and wire him because a few handicappers think that's your best chance to win and they have pace figures and running style data that makes them think there's going to be a fast pace?

2. Should you sit, understand that you won't beat AP if he fires his A race anyway, pray that for some unforeseen reason he goes off form and you do win, but settle for 2nd or 3rd a lot of the time?

I don't think there's anything illogical about avoiding that suicide even if some disgruntled handicapper thinks your best option was to gun or he projected a fast pace and lost a bet because it wound up being slow. You do what you think in your own interests weighing the risks and rewards.

You skip the Travers and enter a race you feel you can win. If your horse is sharp, give it a go. Secretariat got beat 4 times. I'll bet none of those 4 were entered hoping for 2nd or 3rd money.

[EMD4ME]

You skip the Travers and enter a race you feel you can win. If your horse is sharp, give it a go. Secretariat got beat 4 times. I'll bet none of those 4 were entered hoping for 2nd or 3rd money.


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Be a MAN, stand for something, GO FOR TWO, GO FOR THE WIN, SHOW SOME TESTICULAR FORTITUDE...You get the point.

I agree. Go for it. Don't concede Sh*t to anyone. Sick of this new style. Need to make sure I adjust all the time but it's pathetic.

I'd rather get 60% once in a while then shoot for a ceiling of maybe 20%, 10% or 5% sometimes if I were an owner.

[cj]

You skip the Travers and enter a race you feel you can win. If your horse is sharp, give it a go. Secretariat got beat 4 times. I'll bet none of those 4 were entered hoping for 2nd or 3rd money.

Amen.

[classhandicapper]

You skip the Travers and enter a race you feel you can win. If your horse is sharp, give it a go. Secretariat got beat 4 times. I'll bet none of those 4 were entered hoping for 2nd or 3rd money.


People complain endlessly about small fields and now you want every speed horse that probably won't be able to beat American Pharoah (which is all of them) to duck him unless they are going to go all out on the lead so the race develops exactly the way your pace figures say. This is just plain silly.

You run where it makes the most economic sense given your estimate of the probabilities.

If you have x% chance of winning some less prestigious race and the same x% chance of finishing 2nd in the Travers (which would be worth more), you run in the Travers. You never know, great horses have bad days and you could make a tremendous score. But you don't commit suicide if Espinoza wants the lead. You sit. You guys could never manage any horse I own.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

Taras earlier thread bashing Andy was deleted or moved or smoked...i dunno....

r8 sar today he gave out a $4k+ super (redboard, i had Waco on top, 2-7-9 to follow)

Of course i looked at his picks after the fact, Travers hangover i suppose. great work TLG. :cool::cool::cool:

[burnsy]

This is nothing new and Andy should know it. The grass course riding has been this way for years up here.....he's complained in prior years. The inner is the best "conveyor belt" going when its hot and dry. The jocks still rate and the horse on the lead never comes back. If the pace is slow its a no brainer. I mentioned this before the meet in the "how to handle Saratoga" and the other posts during the meet. If you don't use some speed on the grass courses and have not figured it out......that's on you. I milk it all meet long.

But I also see his point. The last few days have had horses that you can't even make on the lead and the one that looks like speed gets out broke at the beginning. That being said I didn't cash a ticket Monday or yesterday. But I try to keep my cool and keep betting it until we get rain or they start battling....which usually only lasts a couple days at a time. These turf courses are tight and fast, the jockeys seem to think its like everywhere else. This is not the first year, its been this way for a long time. This year is no different from last year....or the year before for that matter...or the year before that.

[lamboguy]

i wanted to weigh in jockeys. this is something new that i have been noticing for the last few years. the good riders can actually help a horse to the wire. the good ones are the guys that have superior upper body strength to the others.

in the past i always thought that the best rider to the worst rider could make a 10% difference. today its more like 25% and i now find myself paying more attention to riders.

i love this guy in california Santiago Gonzalez. he is strong and makes very few mistakes.

[classhandicapper]

As a general rule, I think it's harder to predict who's going to have the lead in turf races. There are fewer pure speed or front running horses that you can count on to try to get the lead or to keep the pace honest. The horses that get the lead or prompt sometimes get that position by default. Statistically, loose leaders don't have as much of an advantage in turf routes as dirt routes unless the pace becomes a super crawl. I guess that's also why the riders are less aggressive. They assume they'll be able to close anyway, but sometimes the pace gets so ridiculous they can't.

[ultracapper]

i wanted to weigh in jockeys. this is something new that i have been noticing for the last few years. the good riders can actually help a horse to the wire. the good ones are the guys that have superior upper body strength to the others.

in the past i always thought that the best rider to the worst rider could make a 10% difference. today its more like 25% and i now find myself paying more attention to riders.

i love this guy in california Santiago Gonzalez. he is strong and makes very few mistakes.

He gets be-littled at times because his whole career is the "big fish in the little pond" but Russell Baze is a damn good jockey, and he has picked up more horses and drug them across the finish line than any jock I've ever seen. So many times over the years his horse just looks dead at the 1/8th pole, and he gets another 220 yards out of him one way or another.

[cbp]

He gets be-littled at times because his whole career is the "big fish in the little pond" but Russell Baze is a damn good jockey, and he has picked up more horses and drug them across the finish line than any jock I've ever seen. So many times over the years his horse just looks dead at the 1/8th pole, and he gets another 220 yards out of him one way or another.

Baze's only advantage is getting the best mounts. He consistently makes premature moves and needlessly punishes the horses he rides. He's neck in neck with Luis Contreras as worst successful jock in North America.

[Stillriledup]

Baze's only advantage is getting the best mounts. He consistently makes premature moves and needlessly punishes the horses he rides. He's neck in neck with Luis Contreras as worst successful jock in North America.

Wow, you waited all this time to post and when you did, you posted something incorrect. As far as needlessly punishing, are you suggesting he's urging horses hard with the whip AFTER the wire?

[ultracapper]

Baze's only advantage is getting the best mounts. He consistently makes premature moves and needlessly punishes the horses he rides. He's neck in neck with Luis Contreras as worst successful jock in North America.

He knows his horses and he knows his circuit. He is always in the right place and always seems to know what he needs to do. His upper body strength isn't what it used to be, but it's like Lamboguy said, those jocks with superior upper body strength can really get an extra 100 yards out of their mount when they need it. I've seen Baze whip his horses to get that extra 100 many, many times, but I don't understand how you would consider that needlessly. It was in an effort to get them home, and as often as not, successfully get them home.

[cbp]

Wow, you waited all this time to post and when you did, you posted something incorrect. As far as needlessly punishing, are you suggesting he's urging horses hard with the whip AFTER the wire?
When you move prematurely and wide, like he consistently does, you punish horses. Try to watch a bit more attentively before rushing to pseudo-correct.

[Kash$]

Seems like Kenny Peck isnt a Serling fan

His twitter feed:

Alleged racing experts who don't understand pace dynamics and whine about jockey tactics instead lose any credibility they may somehow have.

[ultracapper]

When you move prematurely and wide, like he consistently does, you punish horses. Try to watch a bit more attentively before rushing to pseudo-correct.

I think in a lot of cases, particularly on that circuit, moving wide and early is necessary, particularly in the cheaper races. Often time those cheap horses just won't pass in the lane, so it's as if you have to have your horse right there at the top of the lane or it'll be hopeless. Like I said, I think Baze understands his circuit. And then add to that the fact that he probably has the best horse in the race, it seems to me there's many a reason he wins 350 races per year.

[cj]

Seems like Kenny Peck isnt a Serling fan

His twitter feed:

Alleged racing experts who don't understand pace dynamics and whine about jockey tactics instead lose any credibility they may somehow have.

Who the heck is Kenny Peck?

[thaskalos]

Who the heck is Kenny Peck?
Apparently...he is the DRF's new "pace expert". :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

grumpy lower-mid level public handicapper?

[Kash$]

Who the heck is Kenny Peck?

New Jersey handicapper for DRF.. :jump: im sure you knew that..

[cj]

New Jersey handicapper for DRF.. :jump: im sure you knew that..

I didn't actually, heard the name but that is about it. I'd love to hear him break down the pace of some of these races before they are run, maybe we could learn something.

[Robert Fischer]

He may be the greatest handicapper around, for all I know...

Just when you have a horse like Capriana, who is conservatively several lengths best, there simply is not a rational 'understanding of pace dynamics' that calls for predicting the heavy favorite to break without a sense of urgency and settle in at the mercy of inferior horses. That isn't logical.

Maybe it wasn't his best moment, and he has plenty to offer. He seems to have a solid resume.

[Kash$]

I didn't actually, heard the name but that is about it. I'd love to hear him break down the pace of some of these races before they are run, maybe we could learn something.


@DRFPeck I think you must be breaking some sort of record for these double-digit longshot best bets of yours! Outstanding! Thank you!

[Stillriledup]

Who the heck is Kenny Peck?

I thought it was the guy from sports center at first, got my Kenny's mixed up.

DaDaDa DaDaDa!

[classhandicapper]

Kenny Peck is a very sharp pace handicapper for DRF. He used to do a weekly show with Brad Thomas that has been discontinued for the time being. Now he mostly does handicapping and product development. I'm not sure why his comment was mentioned in this thread. It seems he was making a general comment about people that blame everything on jockeys and not referring to anyone specific.

[Stillriledup]

Kenny Peck is a very sharp pace handicapper for DRF. He used to do a weekly show with Brad Thomas that has been discontinued for the time being. Now he mostly does handicapping and product development. I'm not sure why his comment was mentioned in this thread. It seems he was making a general comment about people that blame everything on jockeys and not referring to anyone specific.

But if you're one of the people who constantly blame jocks, he's specifically talking about that person. I would 'get' his comments if the jockey blamer was wrong in pinning blame (pin pun intended) on these little airheads, but if the jockey critique is legit, even if it seems to happen all the time, there's no need to be critical of that.

Is there a public handicapper who blames jocks when it's not the riders fault?

[Tom]

I think Andy's comments on choking are spot on.
NYRA has some very bad riders. Worst I've seen in 50 years.

[lamboguy]

i think the riders in that place are pretty good. this has been the most exciting meet in the last 5 and the riders laying it all down has a lot to do with it.

[EMD4ME]

i think the riders in that place are pretty good. this has been the most exciting meet in the last 5 and the riders laying it all down has a lot to do with it.

Have you noticed how many boat races there have been on the inner turf at 1M? With zero flow or moves?

[EMD4ME]

I think Andy's comments on choking are spot on.
NYRA has some very bad riders. Worst I've seen in 50 years.

Andy's comments SHOULD BE COMMENDED and APPLAUDED. I'm glad he had the cojones to say it like it is many times during the meet.

[SandyW]

It does not matter what kind of handicapper you are when it comes to Saratoga, they all stink when you come down to it.
Saratoga, Public Handicappers = Impossible Task

[Stillriledup]

Andy's comments SHOULD BE COMMENDED and APPLAUDED. I'm glad he had the cojones to say it like it is many times during the meet.

I agree. I was sad to see Andy wasn't on the recap show to comment on these bad rides we have seen recently, it was Richie the House jock Mig telling us how great Johnny V is.

[thaskalos]

But if you're one of the people who constantly blame jocks, he's specifically talking about that person. I would 'get' his comments if the jockey blamer was wrong in pinning blame (pin pun intended) on these little airheads, but if the jockey critique is legit, even if it seems to happen all the time, there's no need to be critical of that.

Is there a public handicapper who blames jocks when it's not the riders fault?
Some "name" handicappers have taken it upon themselves to defend the "integrity" of all those who have any real influence in this game...regardless of what "error in judgement" these "influential fellows" might commit. These "name" handicappers pretend to represent the betting public...but they are really stooges of management. They zealously try to protect the "integrity of the game", and, in the process...they sacrifice their OWN integrity.

[classhandicapper]

I haven't changed my opinion on this subject in 40 years. I'm just not as stubborn as I was years ago. I'm beginning to appreciate the differences between dirt and turf racing much more. I suspect that dirt tracks are different now than they used to be and the jocks have adjusted (as they did when they realized they could not ride the same way on synthetics).

Years ago, Jorge Velasquez, Julie Krone, Pat Day and many other top jockeys would routinely take speed horses back or slow the pace down as much as possible when they made the lead. That was their style of riding. How many times are you going to rip up tickets and blame the jockey before you adjust? If I found a horse I personally thought should be ridden aggressively to get loose and one of those riders was on it, I didn't bet the horse or I adjusted my thinking to reflect the higher chances they would not.

The major difference between then and now is that there is way more turf racing now. On turf, my data suggests it is CORRECT to try to slow the pace down. Loose leads aren't as strong an advantage on most turf courses. Extremely slow paces can be. So if you are expecting riders to ride the same way, they won't and shouldn't.

It is also WAY more difficult to predict the race flow on turf because there are way fewer pure speed and front runners on turf. The lead is often inherited.

As far as Kenny Peck goes, I know him and I know his game fairly well. Pace and race flow are his game. He practically invented the term "race flow".

I doubt very much he was talking about Andy. Andy is obviously competent. He was talking about disgruntled handicappers that blame everything on the jockey without a proper analysis of the likely race flow going in, how the track was playing, and an analysis after the fact. That hasn't changed much in 40 years either. ;)

[Stillriledup]

Some "name" handicappers have taken it upon themselves to defend the "integrity" of all those who have any real influence in this game...regardless of what "error in judgement" these "influential fellows" might commit. These "name" handicappers pretend to represent the betting public...but they are really stooges of management. They zealously try to protect the "integrity of the game", and, in the process...they sacrifice their OWN integrity.

Andy has won me over with his ability to just tell it like it is, if he sees a bad ride, he will say something, he won't sugarcoat it. You gotta respect that approach.

[thaskalos]

I haven't changed my opinion on this subject in 40 years. I'm just not as stubborn as I was years ago. I'm beginning to appreciate the differences between dirt and turf racing much more. I suspect that dirt tracks are different now than they used to be and the jocks have adjusted (as they did when they realized they could not ride the same way on synthetics).

Years ago, Jorge Velasquez, Julie Krone, Pat Day and many other top jockeys would routinely take speed horses back or slow the pace down as much as possible when they made the lead. That was their style of riding. How many times are you going to rip up tickets and blame the jockey before you adjust? If I found a horse I personally thought should be ridden aggressively to get loose and one of those riders was on it, I didn't bet the horse or I adjusted my thinking to reflect the higher chances they would not.

The major difference between then and now is that there is way more turf racing now. On turf, my data suggests it is CORRECT to try to slow the pace down. Loose leads aren't as strong an advantage on most turf courses. Extremely slow paces can be. So if you are expecting riders to ride the same way, they won't and shouldn't.

It is also WAY more difficult to predict the race flow on turf because there are way fewer pure speed and front runners on turf. The lead is often inherited.

As far as Kenny Peck goes, I know him and I know his game fairly well. Pace and race flow are his game. He practically invented the term "race flow".

I doubt very much he was talking about Andy. Andy is obviously competent. He was talking about disgruntled handicappers that blame everything on the jockey without a proper analysis of the likely race flow going in, how the track was playing, and an analysis after the fact. That hasn't changed much in 40 years either. ;)
Peck was talking about "alleged racing experts...with credibility"...not "disgruntled handicappers".

[EMD4ME]

Andy has won me over with his ability to just tell it like it is, if he sees a bad ride, he will say something, he won't sugarcoat it. You gotta respect that approach.


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

And when he sees questionable BS, he calls it out in his own unique language.

[Kash$]

I maybe wrong...doubt it...Even Tammaro retweeted the quote, that was enough for me..

[SandyW]

It is always a bad ride when you bet the loser in a race. :):lol: