Can only whip 3 times...

[EMD4ME]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/new-whip-rules-in-place-for-santa-anita-jockeys-beginning-sept-26/

I don't know how I feel about this. It can be good and it could be real bad.

[Mr_Ed]

The old Atari home video game (early 80's) allowed 5 whippings.

Had to be strategic.

[EMD4ME]

The old Atari home video game (early 80's) allowed 5 whippings.

Had to be strategic.

Lmao..... do you remember the horse racing game (can't remember the name of the game) on the intellivision product?

I believe it had a similar cap. If you whipped too much, too early, your horse would understandably tire to a walk.

Fun times, those 80's

[Longshot6977]

I guess we may see more electric whips and batteries/machines? If the 3 whips doesn't get the job done, some jocks may use these to further urge the horse forward.

What happens if a jock uses his 3 whips near the wire and the horse needs just one more whip to get up for win place or show? Oh well, there goes your exotic wager you could have won. And are jockeys supposed to now count the whips in the heat of the battle?

I certainly don't like excessive whipping (certain jocks do it more than others , especially when they don't have a good live horse like some top jocks get), but just 3 whips? Some horses may need 4 and some may need just to be shown the stick. Each horse is different. And someone has to be counting all the whips from each jock etc etc. The idea is good, but the implementation may not be feasible. Just my opinion.

[SharpCat]

Lmao..... do you remember the horse racing game (can't remember the name of the game) on the intellivision product?

I believe it had a similar cap. If you whipped too much, too early, your horse would understandably tire to a walk.

Fun times, those 80's


I remember playing that game alot. It was called Horse Racing.

[chadk66]

this is a joke right?

[proximity]

this is a joke right?

both yes and no.... :)

[NY BRED]

so if a Jockey screws up and whips a horse 4x,
the horse is dq'd and placed where?

Another way of creating havoc for the owner/condition book and betting public.

[OTM Al]

so if a Jockey screws up and whips a horse 4x,
the horse is dq'd and placed where?

Another way of creating havoc for the owner/condition book and betting public.

Doubt there will be DQs, only fines. Similar to rules in Europe.

[Stillriledup]

The problem i have with this is that what if the horse i bet on has a jock who is adhering to the rules and the other jock, decides that his horse could win if he hits the horse 52 times, and the horse that got hit 52 times gets up in a 10 minute photo and wins by the slimmest margin possible without it being a DH. So, the purse is big, the jock gets his small fine or suspension and i lose my bet.

[ronsmac]

Lmao..... do you remember the horse racing game (can't remember the name of the game) on the intellivision product?

I believe it had a similar cap. If you whipped too much, too early, your horse would understandably tire to a walk.

Fun times, those 80'sIntellivision football was so much better than Atari.

[OTM Al]

The problem i have with this is that what if the horse i bet on has a jock who is adhering to the rules and the other jock, decides that his horse could win if he hits the horse 52 times, and the horse that got hit 52 times gets up in a 10 minute photo and wins by the slimmest margin possible without it being a DH. So, the purse is big, the jock gets his small fine or suspension and i lose my bet.

Yeah, but winners got paid.....

[zico20]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/new-whip-rules-in-place-for-santa-anita-jockeys-beginning-sept-26/

I don't know how I feel about this. It can be good and it could be real bad.

One reason for this is idiot jockeys who whip the horse 5 times in the last 50 yards with a 10 length lead. I see it to often it makes me wonder what the hell the jockey is thinking.

One of the greatest jockey's of all time for not using the whip was Dave Gall at Fairmount and Cahokia Downs. He almost never used the whip. He was the master at hand riding all the way down the stretch while the other jock would hit his horse over a dozen times and then Gall would zap the horse once and the horse would explode and go from a 1/2 length behind to a 1/2 in front in the final 30 yards. Jockeys today should go back and watch some of his races and learn how to ride.

[Mineshaft]

this is a joke right?




nope

[tampahorseplayer]

I remember playing that game alot. It was called Horse Racing.

There was a REALLY fun game called Stakes Winner in arcades. You raced your horse as a 2 year old, buying equipment and training along the way, and entering real races such as the breeders cup, derby etc. I think it was for neo geo, Ive played it on an emulator, check it out!

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, but winners got paid.....

Paying the winners is great, as long as they're the deserving winners. ;)

[thespaah]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/new-whip-rules-in-place-for-santa-anita-jockeys-beginning-sept-26/

I don't know how I feel about this. It can be good and it could be real bad.
I think this narrowly focused rule is going to result in more Steward's Inquiries and more Objections. And in the end, more DQ's..
My point.....Horse veers inward or outward. The rider will use the stick to keep his mount straight or make the horse get back on path so as NOT to cause interference.
So with this rule, the rule is "urge the horse back on course"?
Don't like this at all.

[Speed Figure]

Intellivision football was so much better than Atari.

So much better! I still play it with my old friends! :lol:

[luisbe]

In Woo has been mandatory at least for the last 3 years, including a lighter whip.
Let's be clear because I've read some misleading posts: whipping allowed just 3 times, AT A TIME.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Looks like Pedroza is the man when it comes to getting a horse in the exotics (read his comments near the end). And, he can count to at least four. Not so sure about some of the other jocks....

http://www.drf.com/news/house-rule-limits-whipping-santa-anita

[Stillriledup]

Looks like Pedroza is the man when it comes to getting a horse in the exotics (read his comments near the end). And, he can count to at least four. Not so sure about some of the other jocks....

http://www.drf.com/news/house-rule-limits-whipping-santa-anita

Pedroza is right, some horses respond better to the whip. Some need the whip to go forward....the horses who run hard without the whip just increased in value.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

...One of the greatest jockey's of all time for not using the whip was Dave Gall at Fairmount and Cahokia Downs. He almost never used the whip. He was the master at hand riding all the way down the stretch while the other jock would hit his horse over a dozen times and then Gall would zap the horse once and the horse would explode and go from a 1/2 length behind to a 1/2 in front in the final 30 yards. Jockeys today should go back and watch some of his races and learn how to ride.

Amen, brother. Gall was a man among boys. His sense of pace was incredible, and I was always amazed how many races he stole with faint-hearted front runners.

OTH, he gets the same criticism that we hear about when it comes to Russel Baze - big fish in small pond. It's really hard to gauge how good a jock is when riding against other crafty jocks like Paul Feliciano, Shane Sellers, Herson Sanchez and Francisco Torres. Not quite the same as Pincay, Cordero, Santos, Bailey and McCarron.....

[rastajenk]

Dave Gall should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

They have had the rules limiting the use of the whip in Australia for several years now and it has not impacted the racing at all. The rules work well

And yes if a jockey stays within the rules and only whips their horse 3 times while another jockey whips their horse 100 times and wins by a head then the horse that got whipped 100 times will keep the race. But the jockey who whipped it 100 times will be fined and maybe even suspended

[johnhannibalsmith]

It would be nice if we lived in a world where you could use the word "excessive" instead of an actual number in order to enforce rules like this. I'm not surprised that jocks are pushing this with all the moron trainer/owners that think they got a half-assed effort if their jock isn't convulsing in the saddle down the lane. I'm thinking you'll probably see some improved forms with riders worried more about keeping their horses picked up and running instead of performing down the lane, but still wish the stewards didn't need to waste their time with every non-math majoring braniac in a helmet. I can see a lot of overtime logged and films being shown right in the room before prayers so they can manage to get after everyone with a "whip violation" all at once.

[Redboard]

And in the end, more DQ's..
My point.....Horse veers inward or outward. The rider will use the stick to keep his mount straight or make the horse get back on path so as NOT to cause interference.
So with this rule, the rule is "urge the horse back on course"?
Don't like this at all.

I see the jocks using that to their advantage. They can veer their horse into another's lane and then cry that they couldn't use the whip.

[Rex Phinney]

I think it's a good rule. All it means is the stewards have a hard and fast rule to stand on if a jock gets carried away. I think that is all they are looking for. Along with giving the jock a leg to stand on when their idiot owner wants them "convulsing in the saddle". :ThmbUp:

[dilanesp]

They have had the rules limiting the use of the whip in Australia for several years now and it has not impacted the racing at all. The rules work well

Same in Europe.

Trevor Denman, who dabbled as a jockey in his youth, has been calling for this for 30 years.

And the reality is, there really are good reasons to do it: (1) MOST whipping is for show anyway, to tell the stewards and the fans that the jockey is trying, even though the horse is tired and a vigorous hand ride would have the same effect, and (2) whipping is one of the most obvious animal rights / animal welfare issues with horse racing, and getting it under control is pretty important to the future of the sport.

EDIT: This reminds me of a quick Trevor Denman story about whipping. A lot of you like the Tom Durkin call of the Holy Bull-Concern Travers. Del Mar had a nightly replay show back in the day, which Trevor hosted, and he showed that race on the Saturday night show on the day it was run. After showing the race, he didn't talk about what a great race it was-- he lit into the jockeys (Smith and Bailey) for punishing their horses with the whip. He thought that was exactly the sort of spectacle that would energize animal rights advocates in going after the sport.

[classhandicapper]

I don't see why they don't eliminate whipping altogether. None of the horses would have an advantage and it would be good publicity to deflect criticism from animal lovers. You could always allow the riders to carry something that could be used in the event the horse was bearing in or out uncontrollably to give them a few taps on the shoulder.

[Tall One]

Pedroza's stance seems correct. Editor's Note doesn't when the Belmont unless Douglas didnt get into him like he did. Same with Smith on Giacamo in the Derby.

But then you have a horse like Do it With Style whose trainer wouldn't let the jock in the paddock with the whip because she was terrified of it. $hane $ellers will back that up.

/JMO.

[Robert Fischer]

Efficacy of whip use varies.
Both with individual jockeys and horses.

I see a lot of weakening horses that appear to actually finish more poorly in response to the whip than they would under a strong balanced hand-urging. They often appear to shy away from the whip, losing a straight path, as well quit sooner.

Often horses that appear to respond well to the whip also happen to have good late energy in general. It's a little bit difficult to tell how much a strong-finisher is being aided by a whip when he already has good energy and is into a drive, while his rivals are spent and coming back to him.

Then there is the "stubborn" or "herd" runner, who although less common, probably does clearly respond to the cue of the encouragement.

[rastajenk]

My initial reaction is that it's an appeasement to those who will never be appeased.

[dilanesp]

My initial reaction is that it's an appeasement to those who will never be appeased.

You know, I'm not that big into animal rights (I suppose I wouldn't like horse racing if I were), but the history of these sorts of social movements is directly contrary to what you are saying. Taking a hard line tends to increase the risk that you lose everything. We are seeing that right now with gay marriage, where conservative opposition to any form of gay rights whatsoever (they didn't even support the repeal of sodomy laws) has left them out of the conversation as the gay rights side rings up victory after victory on its way to the almost certainty of gay marriage throughout much of the world.

But this has happened in the past, dating all the way back to the way the South gambled everything to preserve a maximal position on the expansion of slavery in the face of Lincoln's election. They lost, big, and paid.

Animal rights movements are going to gain adherents over time. And horse racing already has made appropriate concessions in its history. Do you miss the spur? It was eliminated from horse racing in the 1950's and 1960's. Making the sport less abusive to animals, over time, is necessary to prevent a serious movement towards abolition, especially since the great state interest in the sport's continued existence (its monopoly on legal gambling) has been eroded so much.

[KirisClown]

EDIT: This reminds me of a quick Trevor Denman story about whipping. A lot of you like the Tom Durkin call of the Holy Bull-Concern Travers. Del Mar had a nightly replay show back in the day, which Trevor hosted, and he showed that race on the Saturday night show on the day it was run. After showing the race, he didn't talk about what a great race it was-- he lit into the jockeys (Smith and Bailey) for punishing their horses with the whip. He thought that was exactly the sort of spectacle that would energize animal rights advocates in going after the sport.


Oh how right he was... the 1994 Travers is widely referenced as a black-eye on the sport.

Trevor has always bellyached about whip use. He has even incorporated it into a few of his own race calls.. He never liked watching Nakatani get after Sharp Cat with the whip and made sure to comment on it during the stretch run..

[zico20]

Dave Gall should be in the Hall of Fame.

Without a doubt he should be in the Hall of Fame. Here is just one reason why. For a decade or so Pat Day would come down to Fairmount a few times a year and ride a big named horse from Chicago, which was always the heavy favorite. Gall would always have a mount on a long shot and he beat Day way more times than he should. I was only a kid at the time so my memory isn't the best but Gall out rode Day just about every single time, even when he lost. Simply amazing. Of course though, I was never a Pat Day fan. :D

[Mr_Ed]

The old Atari home video game (early 80's) allowed 5 whippings.

Had to be strategic.

Late 70's...early 80's.....very primitive (but fun):

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q517/chtrwd2/atari_zpsd4812337.png

[Mr_Ed]

Lmao..... do you remember the horse racing game (can't remember the name of the game) on the intellivision product?

I believe it had a similar cap. If you whipped too much, too early, your horse would understandably tire to a walk.

Fun times, those 80's

A very early intellivision:

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q517/chtrwd2/intell_zps471c5426.png

[EMD4ME]

A very early intellivision:

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q517/chtrwd2/intell_zps471c5426.png

OMG , I miiiiiiiiiiss those days and that game! Thanks for the memories!

[letswastemoney]

If you want a decent, modern racing game, try Gallop Racer for the PS2.

In that game, after the first few cracks whipping has no effect as well. It just makes the horse angry.

[EMD4ME]

If you want a decent, modern racing game, try Gallop Racer for the PS2.

In that game, after the first few cracks whipping has no effect as well. It just makes the horse angry.

Are there any games which involve handicapping and nothing else?

I don't want to be a jockey or an owner.... just wondering.

Thank you

[thespaah]

In Woo has been mandatory at least for the last 3 years, including a lighter whip.
Let's be clear because I've read some misleading posts: whipping allowed just 3 times, AT A TIME.
Would you be so kind as to elaborate on this and define "at a time"..
Thanks

[Rex Phinney]

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on this and define "at a time"..
Thanks

Have you read the rule? It pretty much says that a jock can use the whip three times in immediate succession, after which he has to see forward movement from the horse to carry on. So if a jock thinks the whip is going to help, he can try it three times.

The way I read is if the horse has forward movement against his competition use of the whip is not penalized.

So basically if a jock is wailing away on his mount and not passing anyone or even moving backwards he can be penalized. Again I see no reason to think this is not a good thing.

[Stillriledup]

The only thing i care about is NOT getting disqualified because my jock broke the whip rules and i haven't heard if the judges will be altering placings due to excessive whipping.

Anyone know?

[PaceAdvantage]

Are there any games which involve handicapping and nothing else?

I don't want to be a jockey or an owner.... just wondering.

Thank youFunny..I'm just the opposite. I do the handicapping thing real and live...so have no use for a game.

What I don't do is riding/training/owning...that's the kind of simulation I would enjoy more.

[thespaah]

Have you read the rule? It pretty much says that a jock can use the whip three times in immediate succession, after which he has to see forward movement from the horse to carry on. So if a jock thinks the whip is going to help, he can try it three times.

The way I read is if the horse has forward movement against his competition use of the whip is not penalized.

So basically if a jock is wailing away on his mount and not passing anyone or even moving backwards he can be penalized. Again I see no reason to think this is not a good thing.
Yeah, I read it but did not quite understand it.
Now that ( your description) makes more sense..
So if the rider gives up to three cracks in the stretch and his mount is still moving forwardly, it's within the rules if farther down to the wire he may still use the whip to strike the horse?

[EMD4ME]

Funny..I'm just the opposite. I do the handicapping thing real and live...so have no use for a game.

What I don't do is riding/training/owning...that's the kind of simulation I would enjoy more.

I hear ha! But when Xmas comes and the family leaves, I'm bored lol and want a true horse game lol

[Longshot6977]

Funny..I'm just the opposite. I do the handicapping thing real and live...so have no use for a game.

What I don't do is riding/training/owning...that's the kind of simulation I would enjoy more.

Then this might be for you. I played it for a while, very fun to own the horse, train it and enter it in certain races. Then bet on it and even be the jockey if you want to.

http://www.cyanide-studio.com/games/others/horse/HRM2/

Here's a few other 'manager' type games. Enjoy.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=horse+racing+manager+game

[Fingal]

Since this whip rule pertains to races at Santa Anita, & the Breeder's Cup will be held there this year, will this rule be enforced for those races ?

[Longshot6977]

Since this whip rule pertains to races at Santa Anita, & the Breeder's Cup will be held there this year, will this rule be enforced for those races ?
That is a good possibility, but not certain.

[EMD4ME]

Since this whip rule pertains to races at Santa Anita, & the Breeder's Cup will be held there this year, will this rule be enforced for those races ?

I'd love to see that..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Would love to see a breeders cup winner be up by 5, get whipped 4 times, lose a length of ground, hold on by 4 and they disqualify him/her of purse money!!!

An owner, trainer and jockey would be shafted like we us horseplayers are shafted in every conceivable way :lol: :lol:

[cj's dad]

Jockeys can count that high ?

[Inglewood Flamingo]

I see the jocks using that to their advantage. They can veer their horse into another's lane and then cry that they couldn't use the whip.

Exactly.

[Some_One]

They won't dq the horse, jock gets a vacation and fine in the UK, given how light they treat trainer violations, I would imagine US jocks would just get a stern talking to and thats all.

[dilanesp]

I think that this rule is being overanalyzed in this thread. OMG, jockeys will use this as an excuse to commit fouls. OMG, they might stop a jockey from continuing to whip a horse who is responding.

Look, they have these sorts of rules all over the world. Somehow, racing in those other places has survived. To me, the idea that there would be no restrictions at all on a jockey even absolutely savagely beating a horse is absolutely preposterous, and also, the fact of the matter is a lot of whipping is for show anyway (how many times have you watched a jockey whip a horse in the stretch who is well beaten and tiring, just to show the bettors and the stewards that the jockey was trying?). Look at the tape of last year's Breeders Cup Classic and tell me how important the whip is to getting a horse to run.

I think people need to calm down here. There's going to be a rule, it probably isn't going to be enforced very well anyway, but hopefully it will at least curb some of the worst abuses of the whip while still allowing its use where it gets the horse to run faster. I just don't see how this is going to ruin racing in California, any more than the elimination of the spur did.

[Stillriledup]

I didn't read anywhere them saying breaking this rule will result in no disqualification.

As a bettor, isn't this a pretty important piece of info?

[Nosed]

Maybe they could use a lighter weighted whip. Horses like most animals are creatures of habit. After they've been trained, I think they would respond to the whip just out of habit, but not being a jockey, it would be nice to know what some of them think.
One other thing. Is the article saying, you can only use the whip three times?, or only three times and stop before you whip again?

[Ruffian1]

The whip gets the most run out of a horse when it is used sparingly. I know about Eddie Maple and guys that hit their horses 30-40 times. Whatever. It did not make them run any faster I promise you.

It is best used when first shown to the horse and or used in the shoulder area while still turned down or even when re gripped before using it on the back hip area where it is then used 1,2, or 3 times and then switched to the other hand and not shown but used 1,2, or 3 times. After that, maybe 5 or 10 seconds later once or twice more but that is it. Anything else is mostly for show.

It is the element of surprise that gets the best response, not the pain from it.

Funny thing about the old intellivision game was the horse really jumped with the 1st hit. After that, lesser reaction and after 5 you were out of ammo. Then, as the OP said, your horse stopped if it was used too early. Fun game. I still have mine. Lol. Might need to get it up and running after this.

[ubercapper]

I didn't read anywhere them saying breaking this rule will result in no disqualification.

As a bettor, isn't this a pretty important piece of info?

I've read this or similar in more than one place, most recently http://sdhorserace.com/2014/11/20/chrb-adopts-new-whipping-rule-for-jockeys/.

There is no mention of disqualification, although it appears there is room for interpretation in the words "most likely."

"A jockey who does not pause after three consecutive whips to allow the horse to respond, will be penalized, most likely in the form of a fine."

[Tom]

Stupid rule.
Being interpreted by stupid stewards.
What happens when jocks don't give a 4th whip in the drive at the wire?
There is no reason a rule this idiotic- all the stewards have to do is thier freaking jobs and call up individual jocks who abuse the whip.

But I guess doing their job is above the pay grade of this group of incompetents.

j_QLzthSkfM

[EMD4ME]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/excessive-whipping-incident-reveals-more-regulatory-failure-in-pennsylvania-racing/

PA doesn't have a 3 whip rule. They have many more problems than this BUT.............

I wish I could take that crop and SMACK THAT JOCKEY AS hard as he did on a horse that ZERO shot at a placing/check in the stretch.

Shi* *ead

[Tall One]

The whip gets the most run out of a horse when it is used sparingly. I know about Eddie Maple and guys that hit their horses 30-40 times. Whatever. It did not make them run any faster I promise you.

It is best used when first shown to the horse and or used in the shoulder area while still turned down or even when re gripped before using it on the back hip area where it is then used 1,2, or 3 times and then switched to the other hand and not shown but used 1,2, or 3 times. After that, maybe 5 or 10 seconds later once or twice more but that is it. Anything else is mostly for show.

It is the element of surprise that gets the best response, not the pain from it.

Funny thing about the old intellivision game was the horse really jumped with the 1st hit. After that, lesser reaction and after 5 you were out of ammo. Then, as the OP said, your horse stopped if it was used too early. Fun game. I still have mine. Lol. Might need to get it up and running after this.


Reminds me of a filly named Doitwithstyle...stakes winner out here at Keeneland who was so terrified of the whip, the trainer, who's name escapes me, told Shane Sellers not to even bring his whip with him from the jock's room.

[sharkie187]

The only thing i care about is NOT getting disqualified because my jock broke the whip rules and i haven't heard if the judges will be altering placings due to excessive whipping.

Anyone know?

Will a horse get DQ'd? For the betting public, no. Once the results are official, they are official for betting purposes.

After the fact, only in the UK do they have those type of rules. In the US, it'll be really hard to enforce because you'll have trainers and owners fighting for their rightful prize money, plus every state has different rules. CA has the three whip rule while AZ does not.

Fines and suspensions? Already happening, you can read CHRB stewart minutes...its filled with fines and suspensions of jocks over using the whip.

[Stillriledup]

maybe the guy need to hit the winner a few more times in the deep stretch in today's 4th at los al.

didnt hit her enough. :bang:

[pandy]

One of the biggest problems I see is jockeys hitting horses that have put the competition away. I find this puzzling and I don't think the sport should allow a horse to be driven out hard after it has opened up a commanding lead and is obviously going to win the race. A lot of these horses are going to do their best with one or two whacks of the whip so the rest of the whipping is excessive. But I see many horses who are going to win without the need of any whipping and then the jockey starts to hit the horse when the horse is leading by 5 lengths at the sixteenth pole.

[Stillriledup]

One of the biggest problems I see is jockeys hitting horses that have put the competition away. I find this puzzling and I don't think the sport should allow a horse to be driven out hard after it has opened up a commanding lead and is obviously going to win the race. A lot of these horses are going to do their best with one or two whacks of the whip so the rest of the whipping is excessive. But I see many horses who are going to win without the need of any whipping and then the jockey starts to hit the horse when the horse is leading by 5 lengths at the sixteenth pole.

in this particular race, this was a filly with only 3 lifetime starts who was shifting her ground in the lane and straining, ive seen jocks whack horses who were shying from things and the horse just threw the jock bolting, not sure this was the horse that needed to be hit all the way thru the wire with a massive lead. also, this was the first time this jock rode this filly so again, it wasn't like he knew the horse really well. he hit the horse as if he didnt realize he was in front by a big margin with 3 strides left with the horse reaching out and trying pretty hard.

[burnsy]

Oh, my darling. Knock three times, on the ceiling if you want me. Twice on the pipes, if the answer is no.

[Tall One]

in this particular race, this was a filly with only 3 lifetime starts who was shifting her ground in the lane and straining, ive seen jocks whack horses who were shying from things and the horse just threw the jock bolting, not sure this was the horse that needed to be hit all the way thru the wire with a massive lead. also, this was the first time this jock rode this filly so again, it wasn't like he knew the horse really well. he hit the horse as if he didnt realize he was in front by a big margin with 3 strides left with the horse reaching out and trying pretty hard.

At first I didnt see the period after lead, and thought, how long is SRU gonna go on, here..:)

Bold faced reminded me of Ruffian's race described in Burning from the Start where Vasquez heard the crowd roar and thought somebody was closing in, and he tapped her once and prayed Whiteley didnt see it..Whiteley did, and wanted to strangle him, iirc..:D