View Full Version : Wise Dan
pandy
08-30-2014, 03:46 PM
Where does this horse rank in the list of all time greatest American turf horses? He is a grade 1 win machine, has to be in the all time top 5?
zico20
08-30-2014, 03:59 PM
Where does this horse rank in the list of all time greatest American turf horses? He is a grade 1 win machine, has to be in the all time top 5?
Possible off the top of my head that he is in the top 5, but he surely isn't in the top 2. Roundtable and John Henry are clearly much better than he was. I can't think of any others right now.
tanner12oz
08-30-2014, 05:55 PM
I haven't been in the game for more the a decade or so but I think he might be in the top 3 I've seen on either surface
OntheRail
08-30-2014, 05:55 PM
Wise Dan is still dancing.... so hard to place. After saying that... right there damn near the top for sure. :ThmbUp:
castaway01
08-30-2014, 06:26 PM
He's undeniably great, but it's tough to say when you just limit it to American horses because so many of the best (and the winners of the top American turf races) weren't American. I think as far as Americans you have to go back 30 years to find a horse undeniably BETTER for a longer time (that being John Henry), so that's quite an accomplishment.
Shemp Howard
08-30-2014, 07:34 PM
Dr. Fager
John Henry
Round Table
tucker6
08-30-2014, 09:27 PM
Obviously his body of work over grass was small so he can't be ranked, but Secretariat showed great promise at the end of his career. Won with ease. What could have been ...
American turf horses I'd rank very high:
John Henry
Lure
Manila
Wise Dan
Kitten's Joy
...no particular order.
PoloUK6108
08-30-2014, 11:07 PM
Just shy of track record under 127lbs (11lbs to a gr stakes winner), coming off vacation..after colic surgery. I hope he gets to start on dirt.
taxicab
08-30-2014, 11:12 PM
In order:
Round Table
John Henry
Lure
Wise Dan
Manila
GMB@BP
08-30-2014, 11:18 PM
American turf horses are so watered down now its tough to say anything we run today can be compared to the best of of 20 to 30 years ago. American turf horses used to be among the best in the world, now our best could hardly competed with the Frankel's of the rest of the world.
pandy
08-31-2014, 01:29 AM
I've always thought that John Henry was the best American turf horse I've ever seen, and others on here have mentioned Lure and Manilla, both on my top 5 list. But Wise Dan is right up there, at least in the top 10.
Pensacola Pete
08-31-2014, 01:43 AM
Dahlia was bred in the U.S. but had most of her big wins in Europe. I don't know if that qualifies her here.
Dahoss2002
08-31-2014, 03:12 AM
Where does this horse rank in the list of all time greatest American turf horses? He is a grade 1 win machine, has to be in the all time top 5?
He is as game as they come. Thought I had him beat on Derby Day with Seek Again but he would just not be denied. Very Special!
pandy
08-31-2014, 08:09 AM
I don't think Wise Dan gets enough press. We tend to over hype dirt horses in this country and under hype a great turf horse like Wise Dan. If he had the same record in Europe he would be a living legend already. Here more people probably know the name California Chrome than Wise Dan.
ronsmac
08-31-2014, 08:27 AM
American turf horses I'd rank very high:
John Henry
Lure
Manila
Wise Dan
Kitten's Joy
...no particular order.
No Secretariat? He's definitely in my top 5 all time on the grass.
Fager Fan
08-31-2014, 10:00 AM
American turf horses are so watered down now its tough to say anything we run today can be compared to the best of of 20 to 30 years ago. American turf horses used to be among the best in the world, now our best could hardly competed with the Frankel's of the rest of the world.
Frankel was toting around that "greatest ever" title at the time of beating one main challenger - the same one Wise Dan beat. Frankel was a very nice horse but so is Wise Dan, but you are putting Frankel on a pedastal while diminishing Wise Dan. I see no reason to think that Wise Dan couldn't have beaten Frankel or at least given him a hell of a fight.
chadk66
08-31-2014, 10:11 AM
as a former trainer I cannot tell you how incredible it was for that horse to win first trip back after colic surgery. the percentage of horses that come back from colic surgery and compete is very low. those that come back and compete and even remotely resemble their old ability can probably be counted on one hand. (percentage) But to come back and win a route race first trip back is staggering. this horse is totally amazing.
pandy
08-31-2014, 10:12 AM
Frankel was toting around that "greatest ever" title at the time of beating one main challenger - the same one Wise Dan beat. Frankel was a very nice horse but so is Wise Dan, but you are putting Frankel on a pedastal while diminishing Wise Dan. I see no reason to think that Wise Dan couldn't have beaten Frankel or at least given him a hell of a fight.
I agree. Frankel was a powerhouse, but I'd have to believe that Wise Dan would have been competitive with him.
classhandicapper
08-31-2014, 11:32 AM
I've had him ranked as the 2nd best US turf miler I have ever seen behind Lure, but only because I think turf racing in the US was probably of higher quality then than it is now. It's not a firm opinion. I can almost feel myself changing my mind as I type this. Ask me again tomorrow and I might rank Dan first. The one thing I will say is that I don't think you can compare great horses of different time periods on figures. I think there's way way too much evidence of figure drift even among the very best figures makers to do that. There are also different drug and other rules.
I wish he had been tested a little more by the best Euro milers while he was still at his best.
TheEdge07
08-31-2014, 11:53 AM
Paradise Creek was a great American Turf runner
5 year old season
In 1994, Paradise Creek won the grade one Arlington Million, the grade one Washington, D.C. International Stakes, the grade one Manhattan Handicap, the grade two Turf Classic Stakes, the grade two Dixie Handicap, the grade two Canadian Turf Handicap, the grade three Appleton Handicap and the listed Fort Lauderdale Handicap. He also placed second in the grade two Bernard Baruch Handicap and the group one Japan Cup.
In 1994 he became the only horse ever to have won both prestigious turf races of the United States.[1]
By the way against better turf horses.
Wise Dan all class and all time great..
Fager Fan
08-31-2014, 11:54 AM
as a former trainer I cannot tell you how incredible it was for that horse to win first trip back after colic surgery. the percentage of horses that come back from colic surgery and compete is very low. those that come back and compete and even remotely resemble their old ability can probably be counted on one hand. (percentage) But to come back and win a route race first trip back is staggering. this horse is totally amazing.
Even though it had self-corrected by the time they opened him up? Everyone acted as though he was on the verge of dying (and I do appreciate concern over any case of colic), but would just opening him up cause a downturn in form and/or be basically career ending? Seems that'd hold true of the many horses who are put under every day for one surgery or another. Now, had he had some intestine removed, I'd understand that he may particularly be prone to repeated colic episodes.
bello
08-31-2014, 11:55 AM
Wise Dan is not an exciting runner to most marginal or part time fans. Gets perfect trips thanks to his versatility and John Velasquez being gutsy enough to tuck him until until room develops.
But he has what very few thouroghbreds have except the greatest, his absolute "refuse to lose " attitude. Never romps but once he gets the signal to go he is 100% business to the wire. He also has longevity due to his ability to make that one single move when it counts.
Gotta love this horse.
Fingal
08-31-2014, 01:44 PM
In order:
Round Table
John Henry
Lure
Wise Dan
Manila
I threw in a few US bred girls.
Estrapade
Flawlessly
Dahlia
Open it up to Euro bred runners who then dominated over here-
Royal Heroine
Megahertz
And of course the 3 year running BC appearance of Goldikova
Cholly
08-31-2014, 01:45 PM
I don't think Wise Dan gets enough press. We tend to over hype dirt horses in this country and under hype a great turf horse like Wise Dan. If he had the same record in Europe he would be a living legend already. Here more people probably know the name California Chrome than Wise Dan.
Every pyramid has a peak, and in this country the peak is Grade I races run at a mile and a quarter on the dirt. Those have the most prestige, the richest purses, and attract the most elite competition. If a horse is good enough, that’s where he runs. If not, look for other spots.
Saturday somewhat epitomized Wise Dan’s career. An absolutely brilliant performance...run in an undercard event. The horse has answered every challenge he’s been given, but his connections have been content to avoid contesting racing’s biggest events. I wish he’d been given the opportunity to show his brilliance at a classic distance (10f dirt or 12f turf), but maybe running in the softer spots plays in his fashioning a thirty-race career--an incredible accomplishment itself.
chadk66
08-31-2014, 01:51 PM
Even though it had self-corrected by the time they opened him up? Everyone acted as though he was on the verge of dying (and I do appreciate concern over any case of colic), but would just opening him up cause a downturn in form and/or be basically career ending? Seems that'd hold true of the many horses who are put under every day for one surgery or another. Now, had he had some intestine removed, I'd understand that he may particularly be prone to repeated colic episodes.they no doubt inspected his whole intestinal tract. and if you've never seen colicey surgery you have no idea the magnitude of that. they knock em out, lay them on their back and strap them down. then roll them into the surgical room. tip them up so they're head end is elevated. cut them open and basically take their intestinal tract and lay it on the floor. go through every inch and look for tears, blockage, etc. you would shit if you saw how many feet of tract that was. then the trick is to put it back exactly how it was. it's mind boggling. the recovery is very tough, most tear the staples out when they wake up because they usually freak out. they have a bandage wrapped completely around them so it's very uncomfortable. it's an amazing process. and they disregard doctors orders to stay in bed:)
nijinski
08-31-2014, 02:20 PM
Wise Dan didn't only win on turf either . He beat a very nice field in the
Clark at mile and one eighth on dirt as well as a few dirt sprints early
on in his career .
In his last 18 career starts he was not worse than 2nd in a few . He is
just that much of a game versatile pro . All Class !
classhandicapper
08-31-2014, 07:00 PM
Paradise Creek was a great American Turf runner
.
I agree.
He's one of the horses I had in mind when I said I believe the quality of turf racing in the US was better back then than it is now.
MutuelClerk
08-31-2014, 07:06 PM
Wise Dan is without doubt one of the best American turf horses ever. However I can't wait to bet against him at the Keeneland meet. I believe he's peeked and may never win another Grade 1 again. He will offer no value wagering wise. Looking forward to the Shadwell and finding a Euro to wager on or maybe even Goldencents. I respect the hell out of Wise Dan but will be wagering against him.
ronsmac
08-31-2014, 07:32 PM
Wise Dan is not an exciting runner to most marginal or part time fans. Gets perfect trips thanks to his versatility and John Velasquez being gutsy enough to tuck him until until room develops.
But he has what very few thouroghbreds have except the greatest, his absolute "refuse to lose " attitude. Never romps but once he gets the signal to go he is 100% business to the wire. He also has longevity due to his ability to make that one single move when it counts.
Gotta love this horse.I agree, he has a lot of heart and appears to want to win, but not real flashy. He's not in my top 10 or 20 top turf horses of all time but still a solid horse.
Fager Fan
09-01-2014, 10:00 AM
they no doubt inspected his whole intestinal tract. and if you've never seen colicey surgery you have no idea the magnitude of that. they knock em out, lay them on their back and strap them down. then roll them into the surgical room. tip them up so they're head end is elevated. cut them open and basically take their intestinal tract and lay it on the floor. go through every inch and look for tears, blockage, etc. you would shit if you saw how many feet of tract that was. then the trick is to put it back exactly how it was. it's mind boggling. the recovery is very tough, most tear the staples out when they wake up because they usually freak out. they have a bandage wrapped completely around them so it's very uncomfortable. it's an amazing process. and they disregard doctors orders to stay in bed:)
I've seen a number of surgeries and the above is standard for all the varying procedures except for specifically dealing with the intestines of course.
They didn't go through every inch of his intestines though. Here's what was reported to have happened:
After a horse is put under anesthesia, technicians have to get him onto the operating table, so they fit padded cuffs around the patient’s fetlocks and use an overhead lift to raise him several inches to the table. The process leaves the horse upside down for a few seconds, and veterinarians think that turning process is likely what corrected the position of Wise Dan’s colon. By the time they made the first incision in the operating room, the intestine was back in its normal place.
“They opened him up and closed him right back up,” said LoPresti.
Normally, the post-surgical recovery process is a slow one as horses begin eating again and their gastrointestinal tracts readjust. Recurrence of colic, and infection at a sizable incision site are often concerns. In Dan’s case, the procedure was so minor that the gelding is already feeling his oats.
chadk66
09-01-2014, 10:31 AM
I've seen a number of surgeries and the above is standard for all the varying procedures except for specifically dealing with the intestines of course.
They didn't go through every inch of his intestines though. Here's what was reported to have happened:
After a horse is put under anesthesia, technicians have to get him onto the operating table, so they fit padded cuffs around the patient’s fetlocks and use an overhead lift to raise him several inches to the table. The process leaves the horse upside down for a few seconds, and veterinarians think that turning process is likely what corrected the position of Wise Dan’s colon. By the time they made the first incision in the operating room, the intestine was back in its normal place.
“They opened him up and closed him right back up,” said LoPresti.
Normally, the post-surgical recovery process is a slow one as horses begin eating again and their gastrointestinal tracts readjust. Recurrence of colic, and infection at a sizable incision site are often concerns. In Dan’s case, the procedure was so minor that the gelding is already feeling his oats.thanks for that info. that is probably why he recovered so well. that's also interesting in that I had a brood mare once that coliced. during the rectal exam they could feel the intestine was up over a legiment. so they put her to sleep, picked her up by her fetlocks and shook her around a little then continued to roll her over the opposite way. fixed the issue. colic is pretty bizarre.
thespaah
09-01-2014, 12:19 PM
thanks for that info. that is probably why he recovered so well. that's also interesting in that I had a brood mare once that coliced. during the rectal exam they could feel the intestine was up over a legiment. so they put her to sleep, picked her up by her fetlocks and shook her around a little then continued to roll her over the opposite way. fixed the issue. colic is pretty bizarre.
Yes it is...Usually there is a blockage involved.
I had one in my care that ate hay that apparently had too much moisture in it and my horse tied up.
Trainer called the vet and well, I had never see a surgical glove that long before.
The doc went in there up to his shoulder and pulled out hunks of hay.
He made a joke and said "he's got cat colic".....Trainer says WHAT?!!! Oh, the trainer was a very nervous guy. High strung..Every time one of our horses farted, he was like "call the vet!!!!!"..
Anyway, the vet cracks, "yeah, he swallowed a cat".....We( myself and the other groom) were cracking up. Of course the trainer passed out and face planted....Ok that was an embellishment..
So the vet is up there and once he got done, he said he had moved the colon around because he felt a kink or something. Told us to walk the horse for a few hours and if anything came up, call him.
The horse was fine after walking him for a couple hours.
Frankel was toting around that "greatest ever" title at the time of beating one main challenger - the same one Wise Dan beat. Frankel was a very nice horse but so is Wise Dan, but you are putting Frankel on a pedastal while diminishing Wise Dan. I see no reason to think that Wise Dan couldn't have beaten Frankel or at least given him a hell of a fight.
Myself, I love Wise Dan but he is not comparable to Frankel who dusted that "one main challenger" five times and in each case by larger margins than Wise Dan did. Excelebration shipped across eight time zones and raced in the Breeders Cup only two weeks after winning his goal race of the year in England-- and still was only two lengths behind Wise Dan at the wire.
Frankel also crushed the excellent miler Canford Cliffs by five lengths, and defeated the fine Cirrus Des Aigles without too much trouble at the latter's best distance and on his favoured soft ground.
ronsmac
09-03-2014, 01:10 PM
Myself, I love Wise Dan but he is not comparable to Frankel who dusted that "one main challenger" five times and in each case by larger margins than Wise Dan did. Excelebration shipped across eight time zones and raced in the Breeders Cup only two weeks after winning his goal race of the year in England-- and still was only two lengths behind Wise Dan at the wire.
Frankel also crushed the excellent miler Canford Cliffs by five lengths, and defeated the fine Cirrus Des Aigles without too much trouble at the latter's best distance and on his favoured soft ground.Wise Dan is a nice horse, but visually Frankel and a lot of other greats are in another time zone.
Cratos
09-03-2014, 10:26 PM
Myself, I love Wise Dan but he is not comparable to Frankel who dusted that "one main challenger" five times and in each case by larger margins than Wise Dan did. Excelebration shipped across eight time zones and raced in the Breeders Cup only two weeks after winning his goal race of the year in England-- and still was only two lengths behind Wise Dan at the wire.
Frankel also crushed the excellent miler Canford Cliffs by five lengths, and defeated the fine Cirrus Des Aigles without too much trouble at the latter's best distance and on his favoured soft ground.
Why should Wise Dan be a "Frankel"? Why can't he be just what he is; a very good racehorse.
Fager Fan
09-04-2014, 07:46 AM
Myself, I love Wise Dan but he is not comparable to Frankel who dusted that "one main challenger" five times and in each case by larger margins than Wise Dan did. Excelebration shipped across eight time zones and raced in the Breeders Cup only two weeks after winning his goal race of the year in England-- and still was only two lengths behind Wise Dan at the wire.
Frankel also crushed the excellent miler Canford Cliffs by five lengths, and defeated the fine Cirrus Des Aigles without too much trouble at the latter's best distance and on his favoured soft ground.
Many Europeans cross those time zones and race in the BC and do quite well. Remember that we've learned that they actually have a benefit of oxygenated blood from the travel from West to East. Wise Dan could only beat him once as he only raced over here once. Dan also did it all by himself. Frankel had a stablemate to set the pace for him after the trainer changed up his racing style (he was more visually impressive in his earlier races when he was on the front). Frankel never traveled either. I remain of the belief that Dan could've beaten Frankel or given him a really good fight.
classhandicapper
09-04-2014, 09:12 AM
IMO Frankel is probably the greatest turf miler ever and is even in the discussion for greatest turf horse ever if you are willing to overlook the fact that he spent most of his time at 1M.
Wise Dan is a great racehorse also. Ranking a notch or two below Frankel is hardly an issue. I mean I would gladly be Larry Bird or Magic Johnson in Michael Jordan's era.
Fager Fan
09-04-2014, 10:31 AM
IMO Frankel is probably the greatest turf miler ever and is even in the discussion for greatest turf horse ever if you are willing to overlook the fact that he spent most of his time at 1M.
Wise Dan is a great racehorse also. Ranking a notch or two below Frankel is hardly an issue. I mean I would gladly be Larry Bird or Magic Johnson in Michael Jordan's era.
Yes, but why do you think so highly of Frankel? Amazing splits and times? An amazing record? We really don't have all that much to go on regarding Euro turfers while we pick apart our horses here. Dan's been racing how many years, traveling to how many tracks? While Frankel never left home, had a stablemate to aid him? Hell, they walk out of the gate over there with no repercussions for doing so, hardly the case here. Just seems we let Euros slide.
classhandicapper
09-04-2014, 11:59 AM
Yes, but why do you think so highly of Frankel? Amazing splits and times? An amazing record? We really don't have all that much to go on regarding Euro turfers while we pick apart our horses here. Dan's been racing how many years, traveling to how many tracks? While Frankel never left home, had a stablemate to aid him? Hell, they walk out of the gate over there with no repercussions for doing so, hardly the case here. Just seems we let Euros slide.
He consistently dominated and crushed horses that were successful against top Group 1 company in his absence. He also visually looked miles superior to them when he was asked to run. It would have been nice to see him run away from home or at longer distances a few more times, but I personally have never seen anything like him going a mile on turf. I've seen everyone since the mid 70s in the US and think Wise Dan and Lure are the best US based milers I've seen. I don't think he would have crushed peak Wise Dan. In fact it probably would have been a helluva race. But I'd make Frankel the clear favorite.
ronsmac
09-04-2014, 03:18 PM
He consistently dominated and crushed horses that were successful against top Group 1 company in his absence. He also visually looked miles superior to them when he was asked to run. It would have been nice to see him run away from home or at longer distances a few more times, but I personally have never seen anything like him going a mile on turf. I've seen everyone since the mid 70s in the US and think Wise Dan and Lure are the best US based milers I've seen. I don't think he would have crushed peak Wise Dan. In fact it probably would have been a helluva race. But I'd make Frankel the clear favorite.I think he crushes Wise Dan at any point of his career.
Fager Fan
09-04-2014, 03:43 PM
He consistently dominated and crushed horses that were successful against top Group 1 company in his absence. He also visually looked miles superior to them when he was asked to run. It would have been nice to see him run away from home or at longer distances a few more times, but I personally have never seen anything like him going a mile on turf. I've seen everyone since the mid 70s in the US and think Wise Dan and Lure are the best US based milers I've seen. I don't think he would have crushed peak Wise Dan. In fact it probably would have been a helluva race. But I'd make Frankel the clear favorite.
Fair enough, I suppose. It just seems to me that we beat Dan up while no one ever even pulls out the normal standards to measure a horse where it came to Frankel. How many times have we heard about Dan being coddled when Frankel's picture is beside that word in the dictionary? I'm also very put off by the use of two horses to help one horse win.
biggestal99
09-04-2014, 05:26 PM
Goldie would crush wise dan
Allan
OntheRail
09-04-2014, 05:39 PM
I think he crushes Wise Dan at any point of his career.
What's your definition of crushes? Can't be a nose... a head... neck. So open lengths to the entire stretch? I don't think Frankel would of crushed Wise Dan. Wise Dan has tons of class and allot of heart to back that up with.
A Spot in the Hall Of Fame is waiting for Wise Dan.
Crush him... :lol: :lol:
OntheRail
09-04-2014, 05:42 PM
Goldie would crush wise dan
Allan
Boy what a race... Goldie... Wise Dan and Frankel.
Only way to play that would of been a Tri Box. ;)
ronsmac
09-04-2014, 05:48 PM
What's your definition of crushes? Can't be a nose... a head... neck. So open lengths to the entire stretch? I don't think Frankel would of crushed Wise Dan. Wise Dan has tons of class and allot of heart to back that up with.
A Spot in the Hall Of Fame is waiting for Wise Dan.
Crush him... :lol: :lol: 3 3/4 lengths. I can't wait to here wise dan's acceptance speech.
Cratos
09-04-2014, 07:50 PM
IMO Frankel is probably the greatest turf miler ever and is even in the discussion for greatest turf horse ever if you are willing to overlook the fact that he spent most of his time at 1M.
Wise Dan is a great racehorse also. Ranking a notch or two below Frankel is hardly an issue. I mean I would gladly be Larry Bird or Magic Johnson in Michael Jordan's era.
I never saw Frankel run, but I did see 3 other horses run on turf who I believe is superior to Frankel at a mile and over and they are: Secretariat, Dr. Fager, and Sea the Stars.
ronsmac
09-04-2014, 08:22 PM
I never saw Frankel run, but I did see 3 other horses run on turf who I believe is superior to Frankel at a mile and over and they are: Secretariat, Dr. Fager, and Sea the Stars.I also mentioned Secretariat as a top 5 grass horse. He only ran twice and smashed both fields ,winning the Man o war in 224 4/5. He was so good on dirt, most people probably forget how good he was on grass. I was only a little kid when he ran , but watching his two grass races on tape , I don't see too many horses beating him.
Rex Phinney
09-04-2014, 09:23 PM
Goldie would crush wise dan
Allan
Goldie would crush them both.
Not taking anything away from Wise Dan but who is he beating? He is a very good horse no doubt about it, but the horses he has been putting away the last couple of years just make it impossible to rank him as an all time great.
As for Frankel, he was totally coddled thruout. They run so many races over there with a rabbit from their stable or whatever on the front end, it's embarrassing. Many times he beat very short fields. I'd call him and Wise Dan a draw I guess. I'd have loved to see Frankel in a full field of 14 in the BC with a target on his back from everyone out there, let's see him pull that off 3 times.
Goldie just did it all, a real god damn racehorse, no coddling, no BS, running in Europe, United states, dried out quick US courses, deep as hell quicksand with bushes over the top euro courses, right turns, left turns, no turns, one turn, two turns, you name it. Just everything that a racehorse should be.
Some_One
09-04-2014, 10:18 PM
Goldie would crush them both.
Not taking anything away from Wise Dan but who is he beating? He is a very good horse no doubt about it, but the horses he has been putting away the last couple of years just make it impossible to rank him as an all time great.
As for Frankel, he was totally coddled thruout. They run so many races over there with a rabbit from their stable or whatever on the front end, it's embarrassing. Many times he beat very short fields. I'd call him and Wise Dan a draw I guess. I'd have loved to see Frankel in a full field of 14 in the BC with a target on his back from everyone out there, let's see him pull that off 3 times.
Goldie just did it all, a real god damn racehorse, no coddling, no BS, running in Europe, United states, dried out quick US courses, deep as hell quicksand with bushes over the top euro courses, right turns, left turns, no turns, one turn, two turns, you name it. Just everything that a racehorse should be.
Frankel won every UK G1 mile race a male horse could, then once he had them all, the connections stepped up to 10f to take out a couple other G1's. Last year the connections of Wise Dan had a chance to step him up to 10F for the Million, but instead chose a G2 handicap. As for Goldie, the closest reference we have is that Canford Cliffs disposed of Goldie in the Queen Anne, but in CC's next start in the Sussex, was easily disposed of by Frankel.
Fager Fan
09-04-2014, 10:41 PM
Frankel won every UK G1 mile race a male horse could, then once he had them all, the connections stepped up to 10f to take out a couple other G1's. Last year the connections of Wise Dan had a chance to step him up to 10F for the Million, but instead chose a G2 handicap. As for Goldie, the closest reference we have is that Canford Cliffs disposed of Goldie in the Queen Anne, but in CC's next start in the Sussex, was easily disposed of by Frankel.
Goldie was winding down at 6 when she was beaten by CC. Though a female against males, she was in receipt of just 1 pound from CC.
On the other hand, Frankel was in receipt of a whopping 8 pounds, which also saw the other 3 competitors in that 4 horse field carrying over 130 (133 lbs, to be exact).
I don't find it terribly extraordinary for a top horse to be able to win at both 8 furlongs and 10 furlongs. If you're touting versatility, then a case could be made for WD being more versatile as he won graded stakes from 6 to 9 furlongs and won a G1 on dirt. He won from coast to coast and has far greater longevity.
Frankel was coddled. He was touted as the best horse in the world at 3 yet couldn't attempt to prove that by coming back in the DWC at 4? Skipped that, skipped the Arc both years, skipped the BC both years.
Rex Phinney
09-04-2014, 11:31 PM
Frankel won every UK G1 mile race a male horse could, then once he had them all, the connections stepped up to 10f to take out a couple other G1's. Last year the connections of Wise Dan had a chance to step him up to 10F for the Million, but instead chose a G2 handicap. As for Goldie, the closest reference we have is that Canford Cliffs disposed of Goldie in the Queen Anne, but in CC's next start in the Sussex, was easily disposed of by Frankel.
He never ran more than 5 times in a year
He beat Canford Cliffs in a 4 horse field. FOUR
He ran 6 of his last 7 races with Bullet Train in the field, his rabbit, errr stablemate that didn't win a race in his last 30 months racing. He was like 2 for 15 lifetime.
One of his races beyond a mile only included 4 horses actually trying to beat him (6 horse field)
Good horses win races when they are supposed to
Great horses win races when they aren't supposed to
Frankel never even sniffed the latter, so while he is an immeasurable talent his undefeated record is not entirely what it seems.
He never ran more than 5 times in a year
He beat Canford Cliffs in a 4 horse field. FOUR
He ran 6 of his last 7 races with Bullet Train in the field, his rabbit, errr stablemate that didn't win a race in his last 30 months racing. He was like 2 for 15 lifetime.
One of his races beyond a mile only included 4 horses actually trying to beat him (6 horse field)
Good horses win races when they are supposed to
Great horses win races when they aren't supposed to
Frankel never even sniffed the latter, so while he is an immeasurable talent his undefeated record is not entirely what it seems.
Chicken and egg thing though...the fields were often weak because nobody wanted to take him on.
Frankel beat Canford Cliffs by like 5 lengths. You think a bigger field was going to help narrow the margin?
He buried Excelebration at least four or five times that I remember, and that horse won a bunch of G1s, often by big margins.
Rex Phinney
09-05-2014, 12:45 AM
Chicken and egg thing though...the fields were often weak because nobody wanted to take him on.
Frankel beat Canford Cliffs by like 5 lengths. You think a bigger field was going to help narrow the margin?
He buried Excelebration at least four or five times that I remember, and that horse won a bunch of G1s, often by big margins.
Like I said, give me 14 horse fields chomping at the bit to dethrone him, different pace scenarios, maybe a try at synthetic or maybe left handed turn and I'd be the first to crown him.
No one would duck him in the Arc
No one would duck him in Dubai
No one would duck him at the Breeders Cup
They never let him try any of those. He was handled too carefully.
Sad thing is I think he was good enough to win big races a disadvantage. Just imagine him with big traffic problems in the BC winning anyway. Or maybe running a $10,000,000 race in his first try on synthetic. Those are super horse type things.
Some_One
09-05-2014, 01:23 AM
Frankel was coddled. He was touted as the best horse in the world at 3 yet couldn't attempt to prove that by coming back in the DWC at 4? Skipped that, skipped the Arc both years, skipped the BC both years.
How did Wise Dan do in the Duty Free this year? It's absolutely laughable for an American to insist a rest-of-the-world horse must validate their credentials in Dubai consider the horrible record US based turf horses have in Dubai
Some_One
09-05-2014, 01:30 AM
He never ran more than 5 times in a year
He beat Canford Cliffs in a 4 horse field. FOUR
He ran 6 of his last 7 races with Bullet Train in the field, his rabbit, errr stablemate that didn't win a race in his last 30 months racing. He was like 2 for 15 lifetime.
One of his races beyond a mile only included 4 horses actually trying to beat him (6 horse field)
Good horses win races when they are supposed to
Great horses win races when they aren't supposed to
Frankel never even sniffed the latter, so while he is an immeasurable talent his undefeated record is not entirely what it seems.
Like previously said, he won every G1 race a miler could in the UK, remember they have a little thing called winter which shuts down flat racing for 5 or so months of the year. 5 starts in 7 months isn't so bad.
As to his Sussex stakes win, so you would qualify California Chrome's Preakness G1 win as above the Sussex because CC beat 10/11 horses versus 3 in the Sussex? Even though those Preakness runners are mediocre horses at best and the Sussex had Canford Cliffs who was rated 133 by Timeform which probably puts him in the top 0.5% all time (Wise Dan was 135 last year, 127 so far this year)
Rex Phinney
09-05-2014, 02:08 AM
Like previously said, he won every G1 race a miler could in the UK, remember they have a little thing called winter which shuts down flat racing for 5 or so months of the year. 5 starts in 7 months isn't so bad.
As to his Sussex stakes win, so you would qualify California Chrome's Preakness G1 win as above the Sussex because CC beat 10/11 horses versus 3 in the Sussex? Even though those Preakness runners are mediocre horses at best and the Sussex had Canford Cliffs who was rated 133 by Timeform which probably puts him in the top 0.5% all time (Wise Dan was 135 last year, 127 so far this year)
Hey it's cool you think a horse racing 14 times total and beating 4 horse fields is a super horse. That's your opinion.
Mediocre horses affect pace, they make traffic, they sometimes steal races. Running against 4 and 6 horse fields you get none of that.
The previous posts say it all, no Arc, no Breeders Cup, no Dubai World Cup on synthetic. What else is there to say? He beat the same horses over and over with a rabbit on his team more times than not.
Given 10 races with full fields at different distances and no stablemates to gang up, and picking a winner between Goldie and Frankel I'd put my car keys, house keys and full bank balance in Goldie. Frankel never overcame an ounce if adversity.
Stillriledup
09-05-2014, 03:11 AM
Hey it's cool you think a horse racing 14 times total and beating 4 horse fields is a super horse. That's your opinion.
Mediocre horses affect pace, they make traffic, they sometimes steal races. Running against 4 and 6 horse fields you get none of that.
The previous posts say it all, no Arc, no Breeders Cup, no Dubai World Cup on synthetic. What else is there to say? He beat the same horses over and over with a rabbit on his team more times than not.
Given 10 races with full fields at different distances and no stablemates to gang up, and picking a winner between Goldie and Frankel I'd put my car keys, house keys and full bank balance in Goldie. Frankel never overcame an ounce if adversity.
I agree. Frankel needed to come to America and race on Dirt in the BC Classic. Or, at the very least, race in one of the 2 (or more) turn BC turf races.
biggestal99
09-05-2014, 06:49 AM
Goldie would crush them both.
Not taking anything away from Wise Dan but who is he beating? He is a very good horse no doubt about it, but the horses he has been putting away the last couple of years just make it impossible to rank him as an all time great.
As for Frankel, he was totally coddled thruout. They run so many races over there with a rabbit from their stable or whatever on the front end, it's embarrassing. Many times he beat very short fields. I'd call him and Wise Dan a draw I guess. I'd have loved to see Frankel in a full field of 14 in the BC with a target on his back from everyone out there, let's see him pull that off 3 times.
Goldie just did it all, a real god damn racehorse, no coddling, no BS, running in Europe, United states, dried out quick US courses, deep as hell quicksand with bushes over the top euro courses, right turns, left turns, no turns, one turn, two turns, you name it. Just everything that a racehorse should be.
GOldie beat kip deville, cirrus des aiges,and gio ponti
And her last 21 races were in g1 company
Allan
classhandicapper
09-05-2014, 09:17 AM
Goldie would crush wise dan
Allan
THAT would have been an interesting race at Dan's peak also.
I think we are already at the stage where people are beginning to evaluate Dan off how he has run so far THIS year. The Dan we've seen so far this year would get his head handed to him by the Dan we saw a couple of years ago.
Fager Fan
09-05-2014, 09:55 AM
How did Wise Dan do in the Duty Free this year? It's absolutely laughable for an American to insist a rest-of-the-world horse must validate their credentials in Dubai consider the horrible record US based turf horses have in Dubai
What? Frankel wasn't a "rest of the world" horse. He was strictly a U.K. horse, which is like winning all your races in CA or NY. Have no idea what you think our record in turf races in Dubai means as it regards this conversation. This is about Frankel, aka "the best horse ever", avoiding the biggest challenges. The DWC was catered for turf horses with all the races on turf or synthetics. He was the "best horse ever" yet skipped Dubai. He skipped the Arc both at 3 and 4. He skipped the BC at both 3 and 4. He played it safe, beating the same horse over and over mostly, and that horse was drubbed by Wise Dan and Animal Kingdom here.
Frankel was a really nice horse but those who annoint him forgive him for all the things we'd beat up an American racer for. And running with the help of a stablemate stinks to high heaven. If he can't do it on his own, then it shouldn't count as if he did it on his own.
classhandicapper
09-05-2014, 10:22 AM
What? Frankel wasn't a "rest of the world" horse. He was strictly a U.K. horse, which is like winning all your races in CA or NY. Have no idea what you think our record in turf races in Dubai means as it regards this conversation. This is about Frankel, aka "the best horse ever", avoiding the biggest challenges. The DWC was catered for turf horses with all the races on turf or synthetics. He was the "best horse ever" yet skipped Dubai. He skipped the Arc both at 3 and 4. He skipped the BC at both 3 and 4. He played it safe, beating the same horse over and over mostly, and that horse was drubbed by Wise Dan and Animal Kingdom here.
Frankel was a really nice horse but those who annoint him forgive him for all the things we'd beat up an American racer for. And running with the help of a stablemate stinks to high heaven. If he can't do it on his own, then it shouldn't count as if he did it on his own.
These kinds of questions are legitimate, but they aren't always the horse's fault. Sometimes competition avoids great horses.
The reason some people are skeptical of US turf horses is that on the rare occasions they have shipped out to take on international competition they've tended to fail miserably while the Euro runners have done extremely well here.
I would flip your analysis around a little.
Excelebration and a few others Frankel beat easily proved their quality in other Group 1 races. So rather than implying that Frankel wasn't so great because Wise Dan and Animal Kingdom also beat Excelebration, I would argue that Wise Dan and Animal Kingdom further proved their quality despite being US based turfers by beating Excelebration. That was further demonstrated when Animal Kingdom beat an international field in Dubai (albeit on synthetic)
Rex Phinney
09-05-2014, 12:46 PM
Ah yes Animal Kingdom.
The horse who could win the biggest race in America on dirt and a $10,000,000 race a half a world away on synthetic, with nearly 2 years in between.
Runs 12 races total in his career at 10 different tracks.
Runs a hell of a race in the BC off a 9 month layoff.
Another example of what a real racehorse should be. Take away his injury troubles and this horse could have been an all time great.
Cholly
09-05-2014, 04:15 PM
Ah yes Animal Kingdom.
The horse who could win the biggest race in America on dirt and a $10,000,000 race a half a world away on synthetic, with nearly 2 years in between.
Runs 12 races total in his career at 10 different tracks.
Runs a hell of a race in the BC off a 9 month layoff.
Another example of what a real racehorse should be. Take away his injury troubles and this horse could have been an all time great.
I'm with you in admiring his achievements...but shouldn't a "real racehorse" be able to cobble together more than 12 lifetime starts?
Rex Phinney
09-05-2014, 05:46 PM
I'm with you in admiring his achievements...but shouldn't a "real racehorse" be able to cobble together more than 12 lifetime starts?
He was on and off the shelf with injuries thruout. It's really a testament to his connections that he wasn't retired sooner. Less game folks would have found ample reason to shut him down far before he reached the BC mile or Dubai.
They don't make many horses like Animal Kingdom nowadays. He basically won the biggest dirt race in America, the biggest synthetic race in Dubai and got second behind Wise Dan over the turf in the BC.
That's an unbelievable resume over 3 different surfaces.
Stillriledup
10-04-2014, 05:52 PM
Paid 4-5.
Not 1-5,
4-5.
One of a kind.
Shemp Howard
10-04-2014, 05:56 PM
Wise Dan is the man!
tanner12oz
10-04-2014, 06:02 PM
Lopresti just said this is the year to take the shot...pointing to classic
Grits
10-04-2014, 06:13 PM
Dan don't play. He drops his head and rolls home with ease. No matter the set back, the race, or the track. Its easy to watch him and to watch Lopresti talk about him with eyes full of tears. What a racehorse... <3
JustRalph
10-04-2014, 06:17 PM
Dan don't play. He drops his head and rolls home with ease. No matter the set back, the race, or the track. Its easy to watch him and to watch Lopresti talk about him with eyes full of tears. What a racehorse... <3
I was crying too. Because I bet the horse that has lost to him multiple times by 1.5L :bang:
zico20
10-04-2014, 06:23 PM
Did anyone notice that he was 3-5 when the gate opened and after he came out last went off at a high 4-5 and paid 3.80. Just saying!
Lopresti just said this is the year to take the shot...pointing to classic
The owner says BC Mile...a month away, so we'll see.
ArlJim78
10-04-2014, 06:28 PM
Was looking a little sluggish, then like traffic might be a problem. pfffft.
Not a problem the superstar. Such a thrill to watch him do his thing.
letswastemoney
10-04-2014, 06:33 PM
It seems the trainer wants to go in the Classic, and the owner doesn't. That's a shame. Win or lose, I'd like to see Wise Dan give it a shot this year since the older horse division is in shambles.
Grits
10-04-2014, 06:40 PM
This is just an IF. If they consider the Classic, maybe its not all about the big payday necessarily, (its not like Mr.Fink needs the money; Lopresti, yes, not Fink), but instead the possibility, too, of surpassing Curlin in all time earnings? I'm not positive of the total winner's share of the purse, maybe someone else is. Would it put him above Curlin? ..... I don't mind asking questions on purse share. I'm not paid to know all these things.
Redboard
10-04-2014, 06:45 PM
If Wise Dan wins the turf mile, and none of the three big 3YrOlds win the Classic, he could be HOY again this year. Who would have thought that?
classhandicapper
10-04-2014, 07:18 PM
Wise Dan is moving into legendary status. When he broke slowly and there wasn't much pace I thought he was done given recent performances. That was a pretty tough field and he was pulling away late. Amazing class. :eek:
All that said, if he goes in the Classic, I may have to consider moving somewhere I can open an exchange account just so I can book up to a couple of thousand dollars in losses if he wins. I realize he has run some good races on dirt and this Classic is not coming up particularly strong or deep. But IMO it's clear turf is his best surface, he hasn't tried dirt in over 2 years, he's never been 10F, and I don't think he's as good now as was 2 years ago. He'll be so disadvantaged you have to toss him as one of the choices. I'm still thinking of playing against him in the Mile on turf if a solid Euro comes in.
Had he not had the colic issue, running him at 9F on dirt at Saratoga would have made some sense. That way it's not as deep a field and it's at a distance we already know he can handle. They would get to see where he fits at this stage without potentially burying him. The Classic now would be bold, but IMO a mistake. He'd be really lucky to hit the board. More likely he'd get buried.
OntheRail
10-04-2014, 07:28 PM
A true Champion... and worthy HOTY. Whatever they decide as far as the BC he'll show class and heart.
nijinski
10-04-2014, 07:46 PM
Hey starters you opened the gate while Dan was unprepared and .
I thought it was a conspiracy :lol: :lol: :lol:
No problem , Wise Dan is such a cool and classy champion ! :)
Rex Phinney
10-04-2014, 09:15 PM
If Wise Dan wins the turf mile, and none of the three big 3YrOlds win the Classic, he could be HOY again this year. Who would have thought that?
I hope that doesn't happen. IMO California Chrome should win the award in that scenario.
He will have run in 8 races to 5 for Wise Dan
CC has won 3 G1 races and 5 overall (wise Dan cannot at this point finish with more wins)
CC won the derby which is a bigger race than anything Wise Dan will win this year
Wise Dan wouldn't hit the board in the Classic or the BC Turf. How can we annoint him 3 time horse of the year?
Strangely if he runs in the Classic and hits the board ahead of the 3YO I'm fine with him winning the award. But if he wins the Mile against the same old suspects I'm not interested in making him HOTY
He is a great horse and a real champion I'm not knocking him, but it's like watching Zenyatta run in the Vanity, Clement Hirsh and Lady's Secret over and over.
JustRalph
10-04-2014, 11:38 PM
I hope that doesn't happen. IMO California Chrome should win the award in that scenario.
He will have run in 8 races to 5 for Wise Dan
CC has won 3 G1 races and 5 overall (wise Dan cannot at this point finish with more wins)
CC won the derby which is a bigger race than anything Wise Dan will win this year
Wise Dan wouldn't hit the board in the Classic or the BC Turf. How can we annoint him 3 time horse of the year?
Strangely if he runs in the Classic and hits the board ahead of the 3YO I'm fine with him winning the award. But if he wins the Mile against the same old suspects I'm not interested in making him HOTY
He is a great horse and a real champion I'm not knocking him, but it's like watching Zenyatta run in the Vanity, Clement Hirsh and Lady's Secret over and over.
No way that rude cowboy gets the votes if it's even close
RacingFan1992
10-05-2014, 01:02 AM
My dream day would be Wise Dan running down Moreno, Tonalist, Shared Belief, and California Chrome in the stretch at Santa Anita in the BC Classic.
Rex Phinney
10-05-2014, 01:15 PM
No way that rude cowboy gets the votes if it's even close
That is a valid point, I hope Tonalist or Shared Belief wins the Classic so we don't get to that point.
Secondbest
10-05-2014, 05:40 PM
Agree
Secondbest
10-05-2014, 05:42 PM
Goldie would crush wise dan
Allan
Agree
MargieRose
10-06-2014, 12:24 AM
No way that rude cowboy gets the votes if it's even close :ThmbDown:
The award is HORSE of the Year, not OWNER of the Year. I think it would highly unfair and unethical to discredit the accomplishments of the horse, his trainer, his rider, and all of those involved hands-on with his racing career just because of a dislike of one of the owners. The "voters" should only be concerned with the merits of the horse; otherwise, the Eclipse award can really be called nothing more than a people popularity contest, which clearly would be a rude disservice to the supporters/fans of the HORSE himself!
letswastemoney
10-06-2014, 12:43 AM
If Wise Dan could survive a scorching pace in a 9 furlong dirt race against Fort Larned, and still barely lose to Ron the Greek, there is no reason why Wise Dan cannot compete with any elite dirt horse in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
He arguably ran better in this race than Ron the Greek, despite losing.
The only question is the 10F distance of the Classic if the owner wants to change his mind and take a shot. Dirt will not be a problem though.
wherHDmjKZI
OntheRail
10-06-2014, 12:49 AM
I hope that doesn't happen. IMO California Chrome should win the award in that scenario.
He will have run in 8 races to 5 for Wise Dan
CC has won 3 G1 races and 5 overall (wise Dan cannot at this point finish with more wins)
CC won the derby which is a bigger race than anything Wise Dan will win this year
Wise Dan wouldn't hit the board in the Classic or the BC Turf. How can we annoint him 3 time horse of the year?
Strangely if he runs in the Classic and hits the board ahead of the 3YO I'm fine with him winning the award. But if he wins the Mile against the same old suspects I'm not interested in making him HOTY
He is a great horse and a real champion I'm not knocking him, but it's like watching Zenyatta run in the Vanity, Clement Hirsh and Lady's Secret over and over.
California Chrome folds when adversity looks him in the eye... Wise Dan nickers at it and storms for the wire. Chrome flashed early and fizzled... Dan's been the man with a sustain radiant glow. Don't be so sure... so Dan has 4 wins this year but a win in the BC and Clark will make that 6 to 5 for Dan. And with what he's overcome this year you just don't know how the vote will fall.
Me... I'll take the steak over the sizzle... ;)
RacingFan1992
10-06-2014, 01:00 AM
Bring Wise Dan your 3 year old classic winners, handicap horses, and also ran no names. Either way in the Classic or Mile, he'll bury them all. WISE DAN FOR HOY!!!
Rex Phinney
10-06-2014, 02:08 AM
California Chrome folds when adversity looks him in the eye... Wise Dan nickers at it and storms for the wire. Chrome flashed early and fizzled... Dan's been the man with a sustain radiant glow. Don't be so sure... so Dan has 4 wins this year but a win in the BC and Clark will make that 6 to 5 for Dan. And with what he's overcome this year you just don't know how the vote will fall.
Me... I'll take the steak over the sizzle... ;)
He has won HOTY twice already. And aside from a few euros shipping over at BC time he hasn't beaten a single noteworthy horse. He is a great turf miler no doubt, but I need to see them at least try something new before making him a THREE time HOTY.
I'd even settle for a win in the 10F BC turf against the best Euros.
Fact is he came around after Goldie, had he faced her he would have zero BC wins
bello
10-06-2014, 05:32 AM
Bring Wise Dan your 3 year old classic winners, handicap horses, and also ran no names. Either way in the Classic or Mile, he'll bury them all. WISE DAN FOR HOY!!!
Only correction is The Wise Guy "buries" no horse. He simply beats them by just enough which adds to his longevity and greatness IMO.
We all saw the race so I won't get in to what he had to overcome. Just watch Velasquez actions as the approached the wire. Both he and the horse knew they were winners when most of the rest of us may have had our doubts.
What a professional team....What a horse....What a jockey.
They are what is great about racing.
tanner12oz
10-06-2014, 10:34 AM
Great race...keeneland was electric with Dan making his move
RunDustyRun
10-06-2014, 10:45 AM
as great as Wise Dan was, Seek Again was moving at the same rate on the inside when he seemingly got scared of the rail and checked....same thing happened in the Fourstardave but he was able to win there...also helped that Wise Dan wasn't in that race...Hopefully he will run in the BC because I think the horse has a lot of talent and could give Wise Dan a race of it...
DeltaLover
10-06-2014, 11:02 AM
Although my dollars have always been against him, I still have to admit that Wise Dan, is the top race horse of the decade.
The fact that he is the best horse in training, does not mean that he is unbeatable. Judging from his last couple of races, it seems that his best days certainly belong to the past.
Given the weight allowances, he should had prevailed much easier in both of his last races and adding the fact that he had to overcome a serious health problem earlier this year, only makes an upcoming defeat more probable..
I really think that in any race of the Breeder's Cup, Wise Dan ends up running, he will be a huge underlay, inflating the prices of his rivals and creating viable chances for a big score, assuming he chooses this race to break his winning streak.
as great as Wise Dan was, Seek Again was moving at the same rate on the inside when he seemingly got scared of the rail and checked....same thing happened in the Fourstardave but he was able to win there...also helped that Wise Dan wasn't in that race...Hopefully he will run in the BC because I think the horse has a lot of talent and could give Wise Dan a race of it...
Andy Serling told me Seek Again won't race outside of horses and the Manhattan certainly backs this up. He is always going to need some luck to win.
classhandicapper
10-06-2014, 01:11 PM
Andy Serling told me Seek Again won't race outside of horses and the Manhattan certainly backs this up. He is always going to need some luck to win.
That's strange. It's usually the other way around. The only horse I can recall that didn't like to be outside had some kind of vision problem in one eye.
Redboard
10-06-2014, 01:26 PM
Wise Dan is the champ and as Muhammad Ali used to say, if you want the championship belt you have to knock him out - you won’t get a decision. If someone like Zivo wins the classic, Wise Dan will be the HOY IMO. Also, he is an old guy and voters are usually more sympathetic towards seniors rather than one-year wonders, who will at least end up with the consolation prizes of 2014 3yrOld eclipse.
Of course if SB, CC or Tonalist wins the classic, that's a knockout, they will get it in spite of how dumb assed their connections are.
letswastemoney
10-06-2014, 08:18 PM
Strange, they have no problem entering Enchanting Lisa on dirt on Wednesday. Same owner too.
Looking at Wise Dan's siblings and their records on dirt, most of them have done well on the surface. It's pretty rare that one sibling will not like a particular surface, while the other does.
tanner12oz
10-06-2014, 08:26 PM
Although my dollars have always been against him, I still have to admit that Wise Dan, is the top race horse of the decade.
The fact that he is the best horse in training, does not mean that he is unbeatable. Judging from his last couple of races, it seems that his best days certainly belong to the past.
Given the weight allowances, he should had prevailed much easier in both of his last races and adding the fact that he had to overcome a serious health problem earlier this year, only makes an upcoming defeat more probable..
I really think that in any race of the Breeder's Cup, Wise Dan ends up running, he will be a huge underlay, inflating the prices of his rivals and creating viable chances for a big score, assuming he chooses this race to break his winning streak.
I dont know he looked just fine Saturday...he appeared all out at toga but just fine on Saturday...looks to have alot left in the tank from what they said about his gallop out
chadk66
10-06-2014, 09:14 PM
The owner pretty much put to rest any notion of running in the classic. But Wise Dan is just starting to peak and it would take a monster effort to beat him right now.
PhantomOnTour
10-06-2014, 10:50 PM
That's strange. It's usually the other way around. The only horse I can recall that didn't like to be outside had some kind of vision problem in one eye.
The cleverly named Pollard's Vision, who was blind in his right eye, like jockey Red Pollard.
Leparoux
10-06-2014, 11:27 PM
Strange, they have no problem entering Enchanting Lisa on dirt on Wednesday. Same owner too.
Looking at Wise Dan's siblings and their records on dirt, most of them have done well on the surface. It's pretty rare that one sibling will not like a particular surface, while the other does.
:bang:
You're actually comparing where the run his half sis to him? I think they have Dan figured out by now :D
iceknight
10-07-2014, 12:31 AM
Although my dollars have always been against him, I still have to admit that Wise Dan, is the top race horse of the decade. if your decade is a 2005-2014 - Invasor and if you take 2004-2013 then you miss Ghostzapper - both of them will easily top Wise Dan. But on turf alone, yes Wise Dan could meet the US top horse of the decade criteria.
Frankel would probably beat Wise Dan even without his pacemaker Bullet Train. It was a lousy approach of his trainer Henry Cecil to waste Bullet Train in that manner though, I don't hold anything against Frankel on that. It's a shame Wise Dan's owner is not leaning towards the Classic.
Cratos
10-07-2014, 03:45 AM
Although my dollars have always been against him, I still have to admit that Wise Dan, is the top race horse of the decade.
The fact that he is the best horse in training, does not mean that he is unbeatable. Judging from his last couple of races, it seems that his best days certainly belong to the past.
Given the weight allowances, he should had prevailed much easier in both of his last races and adding the fact that he had to overcome a serious health problem earlier this year, only makes an upcoming defeat more probable..
I really think that in any race of the Breeder's Cup, Wise Dan ends up running, he will be a huge underlay, inflating the prices of his rivals and creating viable chances for a big score, assuming he chooses this race to break his winning streak.
Of the decade? Given that this decade began in 2010 I would take the following horses over Wise Dan and not in any necessary order they are: Rachel Alexandra at 3yo, Zenyatta, Invasor, Ghostzapper, and Curlin; even though some ran before 2010.
All races would be on dirt at the 1-1/8 mile distance.
I have always looked loss of early speed as a sign of declining form, even if the horse does win. Look at Silver Charm's last races.
I'll be watching Dad's works closely....I think the low odds will open some doors in the Mile.
DeltaLover
10-07-2014, 10:36 AM
Of the decade? Given that this decade began in 2010 I would take the following horses over Wise Dan and not in any necessary order they are: Rachel Alexandra at 3yo, Zenyatta, Invasor, Ghostzapper, and Curlin; even though some ran before 2010.
All races would be on dirt at the 1-1/8 mile distance.
When I mentioned a decade, I had in mind 2010+
I really think that neither RA nor Z are as accomplished as WD is.
RA had an impressive 3yo campaign but as a 4yo she was a disappointment
Z was a carefully campaigned top mare, still her resume would have looked more impressive had she tried top open companies more often. If memory serves, she tried top level competition twice, resulting to one win and one loss, I think something more is needed to consider her the top horse of the decade.
Rex Phinney
10-07-2014, 12:28 PM
When I mentioned a decade, I had in mind 2010+
I really think that neither RA nor Z are as accomplished as WD is.
RA had an impressive 3yo campaign but as a 4yo she was a disappointment
Z was a carefully campaigned top mare, still her resume would have looked more impressive had she tried top open companies more often. If memory serves, she tried top level competition twice, resulting to one win and one loss, I think something more is needed to consider her the top horse of the decade.
Who does Wise Dan beat?
Zenyatta beat Gio Ponti, that might be better competition than Wise Dan has ever taken down.
Rachel Alexandra at 3 is so far beyond anything that Wise Dan has ever done. Seriously one of the best campaigns EVER, a tour de force the likes of which have not even been close to matched in the years since.
If Wise Dan wins HOTY again he will have done so twice beating out the winner of the SA Derby, Kentucky Derby and Preakness. That's crazy.
Cratos
10-07-2014, 02:37 PM
When I mentioned a decade, I had in mind 2010+
I really think that neither RA nor Z are as accomplished as WD is.
RA had an impressive 3yo campaign but as a 4yo she was a disappointment
Z was a carefully campaigned top mare, still her resume would have looked more impressive had she tried top open companies more often. If memory serves, she tried top level competition twice, resulting to one win and one loss, I think something more is needed to consider her the top horse of the decade.
I realize that you stated from 2010 forward but I felt it was necessary to talk about horses that wasn't one-dimensional.
Wise Dan is a very good , but not great horse IMHO and primarily because he is not just one dimensional in terms of being a turf runner, but a miler.
The great Dr. Fager was casted as a "miler", but he raced beyond that distance 6 times during his illustrious career with one of those starts being on turf in which he beat the turf champion.
Rachel Alexandra was the best 3yo female horses since Ruffian and while I will agree that Zenyatta was kept under "wraps" she was devastating when they allowed her to run in the BC Classics.
Again, Wise Dan is a very good horse, but we have 5 years left in this decade.
DeltaLover
10-07-2014, 04:12 PM
Rachel Alexandra was the best 3yo female horses since Ruffian and while I will agree that Zenyatta was kept under "wraps" she was devastating when they allowed her to run in the BC Classics.
Again, Wise Dan is a very good horse, but we have 5 years left in this decade.
- Rags2Riches was also very impressive.. Her Belmont was probably the best for long time (especially considering whom she beat!)
- It will be good news if during the rest of the decade we well see a better horse than WD.
Leparoux
10-07-2014, 04:38 PM
Who does Wise Dan beat?
Zenyatta beat Gio Ponti, that might be better competition than Wise Dan has ever taken down.
Rachel Alexandra at 3 is so far beyond anything that Wise Dan has ever done. Seriously one of the best campaigns EVER, a tour de force the likes of which have not even been close to matched in the years since.
If Wise Dan wins HOTY again he will have done so twice beating out the winner of the SA Derby, Kentucky Derby and Preakness. That's crazy.
You want to knock Dan for not beating anyone (which is silly) but then turn around and suggest RA 3yo campaign was one of the best ever (which I agree) but who exactly did she beat that year?
Frost king
10-07-2014, 05:20 PM
How many horses has Wise Dan defeated that have headed to stud duty? Just like Rachael Alexander, they have defeated no one. At least Z has beaten some horses that are currently standing at stud!
Rex Phinney
10-07-2014, 05:37 PM
You want to knock Dan for not beating anyone (which is silly) but then turn around and suggest RA 3yo campaign was one of the best ever (which I agree) but who exactly did she beat that year?
Summer Bird won the Belmont, the Travers and The Jockey Club Gold Cup. Rachel beat him.
Mine that Bird finished second to Rachel, he won the Derby and finished 3rd in the Belmont to bookend Rachel beating him.
Rachel Alexandra at her best is in a different galaxy than Wise Dan.
Rachel was an all time great, Wise Dan is simply a really good turf miler.
DeltaLover
10-07-2014, 05:45 PM
I think that the consistency of WD is more admirable than the exceptional 3yo campaign of RA.
Opinions on the topic differ greatly, this is a good thing to happen for racing.
I consider Kelso to be superior over the Dr, Secretariat and even MOW, mainly because he was able to perform at top level for so long. Of course I still understand the opposite opinions, I just disagree with them... Nothing wrong with it...
Rex Phinney
10-07-2014, 05:55 PM
How many horses has Wise Dan defeated that have headed to stud duty? Just like Rachael Alexander, they have defeated no one. At least Z has beaten some horses that are currently standing at stud!
Her name was Rachel Alexandra!
She won all 8 races she ran in 2009, 5 Grade 1's and 2 Grade 2's
She won at 7 different racetracks
She needed only 16 weeks to beat males more times than Zenyatta did her entire career.
If you want to define a career by longevity and end of they year awards then Wise Dan and Zenyatta are fine choices.
But I'll tell you this, for a short time during the summer of 2009 the world belonged to Rachel Alexandra. And nothing Wise Dan can do running a mile on grass (again) is going to change that.
DeltaLover
10-07-2014, 06:03 PM
Her name was Rachel Alexandra!
She won all 8 races she ran in 2009, 5 Grade 1's and 2 Grade 2's
She won at 7 different racetracks
She needed only 16 weeks to beat males more times than Zenyatta did her entire career.
If you want to define a career by longevity and end of they year awards then Wise Dan and Zenyatta are fine choices.
But I'll tell you this, for a short time during the summer of 2009 the world belonged to Rachel Alexandra. And nothing Wise Dan can do running a mile on grass (again) is going to change that.
As I said above, each of us has his own favourites for his own reasons. You like RA, I like Kelso, thask likes Z, iceknight likes Ghostzapper and my friend Heliodoro considers Forego the best ever! I think this kind of a disagreement is very healthy and a main part of the magic of the game!
Rex Phinney
10-07-2014, 06:06 PM
I think that the consistency of WD is more admirable than the exceptional 3yo campaign of RA.
Opinions on the topic differ greatly, this is a good thing to happen for racing.
I consider Kelso to be superior over the Dr, Secretariat and even MOW, mainly because he was able to perform at top level for so long. Of course I still understand the opposite opinions, I just disagree with them... Nothing wrong with it...
I see your point but many times we don't get to know the full longevity of a horse. Secretariat for example was retired far before he was done proving his talent.
Wise Dan and Zenyatta surely lasted longer than Rachel but neither of them went to the lengths Rachel did during 2009, if they had, they might have lost a step just like she did.
What Rachel stands for is everything Horse racing should be about, accepting any challenge, dancing all the dances and being able to accept that you won't win them all. Connections running 5 or 6 races a year could learn from that.
Leparoux
10-07-2014, 06:22 PM
Summer Bird won the Belmont, the Travers and The Jockey Club Gold Cup. Rachel beat him.
Mine that Bird finished second to Rachel, he won the Derby and finished 3rd in the Belmont to bookend Rachel beating him.
Rachel Alexandra at her best is in a different galaxy than Wise Dan.
Rachel was an all time great, Wise Dan is simply a really good turf miler.
He isn't even a GREAT turf miler? :D
How about Animal Kingdom? Does Wise Dan get credit for beating him or no because AK was racing off a big layoff?
Redboard
10-07-2014, 06:49 PM
Wise Dan may not have beat much, but everybody else has major flaws too. What if, for example, CC, SB & Tonalist dead heat for 5th in the BCC:
CC: Has any HOY ever not hit the board in their last 3 races?
SB:Who has he beat?
Tonalist: Two G1 wins? Has any HOY had so few?
Of course the point could be mute, but stranger things have happened.
Cratos
10-07-2014, 06:58 PM
I think that the consistency of WD is more admirable than the exceptional 3yo campaign of RA.
Opinions on the topic differ greatly, this is a good thing to happen for racing.
I consider Kelso to be superior over the Dr, Secretariat and even MOW, mainly because he was able to perform at top level for so long. Of course I still understand the opposite opinions, I just disagree with them... Nothing wrong with it...
Did you ever see either Secretariat or Dr. Faber run? I don't think so because your assertion that you would take Kelso over probably the best three horses (Man O'War bring the other) to run in North America moves from the ridiculous to the sublime.
I had the opportunity to see both Secretariat and Dr. Fagter at their best and I don't think Dr. Fager's last three career races and Secretariat's TC races can be nothing less than the epitome of greatness; Kelso although had a stellar career; his achievements are a distance second to the aforementioned two.
ArlJim78
10-07-2014, 07:08 PM
I see your point but many times we don't get to know the full longevity of a horse. Secretariat for example was retired far before he was done proving his talent.
Wise Dan and Zenyatta surely lasted longer than Rachel but neither of them went to the lengths Rachel did during 2009, if they had, they might have lost a step just like she did.
What Rachel stands for is everything Horse racing should be about, accepting any challenge, dancing all the dances and being able to accept that you won't win them all. Connections running 5 or 6 races a year could learn from that.
Never raced in the BC, how is that accepting every challenge and dancing every dance?
Her 5 race final season was nothing that would rank her with the all time greats. She had that brilliant streak but I agree with others that the competition was suspect. No comparison with Wise Dan who has a relentless will to win, sustained over numerous seasons while racing in tougher spots.
DeltaLover
10-07-2014, 07:19 PM
Did you ever see either Secretariat or Dr. Faber run? I don't think so because your assertion that you would take Kelso over probably the best three horses (Man O'War bring the other) to run in North America moves from the ridiculous to the sublime.
I had the opportunity to see both Secretariat and Dr. Fagter at their best and I don't think Dr. Fager's last three career races and Secretariat's TC races can be nothing less than the epitome of greatness; Kelso although had a stellar career; his achievements are a distance second to the aforementioned two.
No, i did not see either one (live), although i have watched the replays hundreds of times. Still, i vote Kelso
burnsy
10-07-2014, 07:20 PM
I see your point but many times we don't get to know the full longevity of a horse. Secretariat for example was retired far before he was done proving his talent.
Wise Dan and Zenyatta surely lasted longer than Rachel but neither of them went to the lengths Rachel did during 2009, if they had, they might have lost a step just like she did.
What Rachel stands for is everything Horse racing should be about, accepting any challenge, dancing all the dances and being able to accept that you won't win them all. Connections running 5 or 6 races a year could learn from that.
I agree, you will never see a campaign like that from a 3 yo filly. I was at the Preakness and the Woodward. It was thrilling and all but the only problem I have with Rachel is it is kind of dressed up. She never really beat anyone that good besides Summer Bird in a deal he really had no shot in. The Woodward featured Macho Again and the mighty Bullsbay. Mine That Bird was sort of a two race fluke too...he was never the same after the Preakness. I'm kind of a fact guy and people hate that because they are fans but the horses you are comparing her to .....one is a multiple BC champ and HOY....the other is a BC classic winner and runner up, running on both surfaces. Seriously, her campaign was great, no one will probably do it again but she never faced the best around like these two have..........sorry. If you look at her 2010 campaign you can see that the Woodward was kind of the end of the road.....and she skipped the Apple Blossom....Gee, I wonder why?
ronsmac
10-07-2014, 08:16 PM
I agree, you will never see a campaign like that from a 3 yo filly. I was at the Preakness and the Woodward. It was thrilling and all but the only problem I have with Rachel is it is kind of dressed up. She never really beat anyone that good besides Summer Bird in a deal he really had no shot in. The Woodward featured Macho Again and the mighty Bullsbay. Mine That Bird was sort of a two race fluke too...he was never the same after the Preakness. I'm kind of a fact guy and people hate that because they are fans but the horses you are comparing her to .....one is a multiple BC champ and HOY....the other is a BC classic winner and runner up, running on both surfaces. Seriously, her campaign was great, no one will probably do it again but she never faced the best around like these two have..........sorry. If you look at her 2010 campaign you can see that the Woodward was kind of the end of the road.....and she skipped the Apple Blossom....Gee, I wonder why?
She had to skip the Apple Blossom, Shireffs 3rd stringer Zardana beat her at the Fair Grounds. Zenyatta would've drowned Rachel.
PoloUK6108
10-07-2014, 08:47 PM
How many horses has Wise Dan defeated that have headed to stud duty? Just like Rachael Alexander, they have defeated no one. At least Z has beaten some horses that are currently standing at stud!
He's beaten Animal Kingdom..that counts for something haha.
Cratos
10-07-2014, 09:02 PM
No, i did not see either one (live), although i have watched the replays hundreds of times. Still, i vote Kelso
I appreciate and respect your honesty.
Also I not only saw Dr. Fager last 3 races, I was at Aqueduct to see what has been called the greatest assembly of great horses in one race with the Doctor meeting, Damascus, and Buclpasser.
Valuist
10-07-2014, 09:38 PM
How many horses has Wise Dan defeated that have headed to stud duty? Just like Rachael Alexander, they have defeated no one. At least Z has beaten some horses that are currently standing at stud!
What does that have to do with anything?
BTW, Zenyatta retired how many years ago? Give it a rest. I'm sure in 2017 there will be horses at stud that got their ass whipped by Wise Dan.
I guess you elected to overlook Animal Kingdom?
I appreciate and respect your honesty.
Also I not only saw Dr. Fager last 3 races, I was at Aqueduct to see what has been called the greatest assembly of great horses in one race with the Doctor meeting, Damascus, and Buckpasser.
Yes, definitely the top of the heap.
X8frxLao1bM
RacingFan1992
10-07-2014, 10:45 PM
One thing I hate more than talking about a match race is comparing horses from different generations. You know what would happened if you put Man O' War, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Forego, Kelso, and Kelso in a race today? Nothing, they are all dead. WHO CARES?!?!
By a show of hands who cares who is better than anyone else???
NOT ME!
:ThmbDown:
I have been guilty of comparing horses but today this needs to stop.
All those in favor of PA banning anyone who compares multiple horses who can not physically race one another, show me a thumbs up?
:ThmbUp:
OntheRail
10-07-2014, 10:50 PM
She had to skip the Apple Blossom, Shireffs 3rd stringer Zardana beat her at the Fair Grounds. Zenyatta would've drowned Rachel.
Go back and look at the weather at Fair Grounds in early 2010. How much training did Rachael miss because the track was flooded or unsafe? After that they tried to do catch up and it really hurt her. I wont get into the RA-Z battle as both are Classy Champions and Special... and Wise Dan is the Man. :p
DeltaLover
10-07-2014, 11:34 PM
One thing I hate more than talking about a match race is comparing horses from different generations. You know what would happened if you put Man O' War, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Forego, Kelso, and Kelso in a race today? Nothing, they are all dead. WHO CARES?!?!
You might be right from a strictly pragmatic stand point, but for horse addicts (like us), this kind of a conversation is something that we always like to have and agree and disagree about the greats of our sport, refering to races that occured decades before..
It is inevitable, for anyone who is obsessed with the game, to attempt this kind of comparissons, since in the bottom of his heart, he loves racing not only as gambling but as a sport as well...
ultracapper
10-08-2014, 03:01 AM
I see your point but many times we don't get to know the full longevity of a horse. Secretariat for example was retired far before he was done proving his talent.
Wise Dan and Zenyatta surely lasted longer than Rachel but neither of them went to the lengths Rachel did during 2009, if they had, they might have lost a step just like she did.
What Rachel stands for is everything Horse racing should be about, accepting any challenge, dancing all the dances and being able to accept that you won't win them all. Connections running 5 or 6 races a year could learn from that.
Secretariat still had something to prove?
Where do we go with this one?
ArlJim78
10-08-2014, 04:35 AM
One thing I hate more than talking about a match race is comparing horses from different generations. You know what would happened if you put Man O' War, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Forego, Kelso, and Kelso in a race today? Nothing, they are all dead. WHO CARES?!?!
By a show of hands who cares who is better than anyone else???
NOT ME!
:ThmbDown:
I have been guilty of comparing horses but today this needs to stop.
All those in favor of PA banning anyone who compares multiple horses who can not physically race one another, show me a thumbs up?
:ThmbUp:
This is a bit radical don't you think? Would this policy have been in place by your own admission you yourself would have already been banned.
I myself prefer discussions about horses that will actually be competing against each other to these types of theoretical conversations involving horses from different eras and even all the HOY talk for which my response is "Who cares?". My interest is in actual races and not in a committee who votes to give an award to one horse or another.
With that said, it's clear that many people are interested in these types of discussions. How about a system whereby we have the freedom to indulge in these conversations if we want to, and also the freedom to ban ourselves from reading them if we don't like it? In other words the system we have now. If you don't like it just move on to something else.
RacingFan1992
10-08-2014, 05:37 AM
Sure. Why not? :) So who is better, Secretariat or Man O' War? LOL :lol:
Fager Fan
10-08-2014, 10:23 AM
Never raced in the BC, how is that accepting every challenge and dancing every dance?
Her 5 race final season was nothing that would rank her with the all time greats. She had that brilliant streak but I agree with others that the competition was suspect. No comparison with Wise Dan who has a relentless will to win, sustained over numerous seasons while racing in tougher spots.
She didn't run in the BC because there was no dirt races in that year's BC. People cannot overlook this fact when talking of BC performances (or abstaining from running in the BC) during the years it was run on synthetics. The boneheaded decision of the BC top guns gave us a couple years of mostly irrelevant BC race results.
Fager Fan
10-08-2014, 10:32 AM
Go back and look at the weather at Fair Grounds in early 2010. How much training did Rachael miss because the track was flooded or unsafe? After that they tried to do catch up and it really hurt her. I wont get into the RA-Z battle as both are Classy Champions and Special... and Wise Dan is the Man. :p
Rachel was mismanaged. The Woodward wrung her dry, as it should for a 3yo filly beating older males in a dirt route. They should've sent her to the farm for a two-month vacation (during which time she would be checked over from head-to-toe by Bramlage) then brought back. It was a mistake of the highest order to leave her in Asmussen's barn and not give her a vacation to heal her physically and mentally.
classhandicapper
10-08-2014, 11:11 AM
Rachel was mismanaged. The Woodward wrung her dry, as it should for a 3yo filly beating older males in a dirt route. They should've sent her to the farm for a two-month vacation (during which time she would be checked over from head-to-toe by Bramlage) then brought back. It was a mistake of the highest order to leave her in Asmussen's barn and not give her a vacation to heal her physically and mentally.
There isn't a perfect formula.
If you "go for the gusto", you may get the glory, but you often wind up squeezing the lemon dry prematurely.
If you pick your spots, keep the horse fresh etc... you will probably get a longer career racing at a very high level, but you will get criticized for short campaigns, avoiding the tougher tests, and facing weak competition.
OntheRail
10-08-2014, 01:50 PM
Rachel was mismanaged. The Woodward wrung her dry, as it should for a 3yo filly beating older males in a dirt route. They should've sent her to the farm for a two-month vacation (during which time she would be checked over from head-to-toe by Bramlage) then brought back. It was a mistake of the highest order to leave her in Asmussen's barn and not give her a vacation to heal her physically and mentally.
I agree the Woodward was a hell of a race and she gutted out fractions and relentless pressure from a tag team hit squad that would of folded most if not all of this years top 3yr olds. Yep sunshine and rest would of been good for her heart and soul. instead she got grey skies and soggy ground and SA playing with her equipment.
Least she's able to be a happy horse and romp the fields today.. :)
Fager Fan
10-08-2014, 02:50 PM
There isn't a perfect formula.
If you "go for the gusto", you may get the glory, but you often wind up squeezing the lemon dry prematurely.
If you pick your spots, keep the horse fresh etc... you will probably get a longer career racing at a very high level, but you will get criticized for short campaigns, avoiding the tougher tests, and facing weak competition.
I don't consider running her in the Woodward or any other spot as mismanagement. I'm talking about not giving her time to recover at the farm. I've learned from the best vets in the business that every horse needs a couple months every year to recover from the wear and tear.
SharpCat
10-09-2014, 02:18 AM
She didn't run in the BC because there was no dirt races in that year's BC. People cannot overlook this fact when talking of BC performances (or abstaining from running in the BC) during the years it was run on synthetics. The boneheaded decision of the BC top guns gave us a couple years of mostly irrelevant BC race results.
I don't buy that at all. Before she was sold to Jess Jackson the owner and trainer said that the Ladies Classic was the year end goal for her.
OntheRail
10-09-2014, 02:28 AM
I don't buy that at all. Before she was sold to Jess Jackson the owner and trainer said that the Ladies Classic was the year end goal for her.
And Hal Wiggins said he would never had run her against Colts yet alone Older Horses. So what one previous owner and trainer said had little to do with Jess Jackson or his dislike for plastic tracks... and if Rachel would run upon it.
horses4courses
12-09-2014, 06:37 PM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/89116/wise-dan-recovering-well-as-season-ends
http://cdn.bloodhorse.com/images/content/WiseDanHead2Barn12092014AE298.jpg
PoloUK6108
06-26-2015, 11:27 PM
Who thinks we'll see our ol' boy race again? It'll be a shame if we cant see him after the way Charlie's been talking. Either way, so happy he's recovered well! It'll be awhile before anyone takes his place as my favorite racehorse, if ever..
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