Integrity, over all else?

[Stillriledup]

We have a ton of threads about takeout, people boycott tracks because of takeout raises, but nobody really boycotts because of lack of integrity. There are so many jocks and trainers and even some owners with very questionable integrity, yet, nobody said "boycott this track because of an integrity issue". We also have pari mutuel pool integrity, past posting incidents that get "investigated" and swept under the rug.

If you walk thru the grandstand of every track in the country and you talk to the "down and out" gambler, they won't tell you "everything is fine, but the takeout is too high". They'll tell you about crooked trainers using the juice and jocks on the take and so on and so forth. They'll tell you about tracks manipulating racing surfaces for big days and manipulating racing surfaces to create carryovers. Whether or not any of this is true, its believed to be true by many (if not all) and perception is reality, especially if a paying customer decides he does not want to be a paying customer anymore because of what he believes to be true.

Wouldn't the betting handles rise, even with takeout remaining the same, if the bettors felt the game was beyond reproach from an integrity standpoint?

I don't know the exact state of this game from an integrity standpoint, but the perception is pretty bad....and that's important, perception is what keeps many potential customers away and gets current customers to reconsider what they're doing in this game in the first place.

Is it that hard to tighten up the game from an integrity standpoint? Are tracks that fearful of "bad publicity" that they sweep scandal under the rug and think we're too stupid to notice?

[aaron]

You are right on target. No one addresses the big drops in odds after the race has started. A hard game to play when you bet 7/2 and end up with 8/5.I know many bettors whose handle has decreased because of all the things you mentioned.

[TheEdge07]

We have 3 choices

A.Walk away
B.keep grinding
C.bet less and enjoy

Nothing will ever change..

[thaskalos]

We have a ton of threads about takeout, people boycott tracks because of takeout raises, but nobody really boycotts because of lack of integrity. There are so many jocks and trainers and even some owners with very questionable integrity, yet, nobody said "boycott this track because of an integrity issue". We also have pari mutuel pool integrity, past posting incidents that get "investigated" and swept under the rug.

If you walk thru the grandstand of every track in the country and you talk to the "down and out" gambler, they won't tell you "everything is fine, but the takeout is too high". They'll tell you about crooked trainers using the juice and jocks on the take and so on and so forth. They'll tell you about tracks manipulating racing surfaces for big days and manipulating racing surfaces to create carryovers. Whether or not any of this is true, its believed to be true by many (if not all) and perception is reality, especially if a paying customer decides he does not want to be a paying customer anymore because of what he believes to be true.

Wouldn't the betting handles rise, even with takeout remaining the same, if the bettors felt the game was beyond reproach from an integrity standpoint?

I don't know the exact state of this game from an integrity standpoint, but the perception is pretty bad....and that's important, perception is what keeps many potential customers away and gets current customers to reconsider what they're doing in this game in the first place.

Is it that hard to tighten up the game from an integrity standpoint? Are tracks that fearful of "bad publicity" that they sweep scandal under the rug and think we're too stupid to notice?

You hit the nail right on the head with that last sentence, SRU. The industry knows that the horseplayer's attention span is severely limited. The game goes on every day...so there is no time to reflect on yesterday's scandal. Especially since the next scandal is just around the corner.

[TheEdge07]

Update on the Penn National fiasco?

[thaskalos]

Update on the Penn National fiasco?

Don't hold your breath.

[Stillriledup]

Thank you guys, thanks Gus.

I guess a good example would be the situation at Penn National with the clocker reporting bogus times and David Wells running down the street away from the media. So, did all of that hurt handle at Penn National? I would say no, it didnt affect the way people bet or don't bet, so why not just clean up the game and get rid of the bad apples?

Probably the biggest detriment to tracks cleaning up the game is lawsuits. Tracks don't want to spend money fighting trainers, jocks and others in courts, especially if they're slots tracks who actually want the racing to go away (and keep the slots of course).

Jeff Gural at Meadowlands is fighting the good fight, but that's because he needs his betting product to have integrity, he needs betting handle to survive and if that takes kicking out a driver or trainer, he will do it.

[thaskalos]

The most damaging article, as far as I am concerned, was the one written by Beyer some years ago...where he stated that suspensions and redistributions of purses in California were handled in a "hush-hush" manner...in order to preserve whatever integrity the game had left.

[Poindexter]

While I am hardly naive enough to say this game is free of cheating, drugs, scandal or ever will be........it is pretty commonplace for gamblers to blame everything and everyone but themselves for why they lose. Thus, while they may not be smart enough to realize why they are losing, they just latch on to what makes sense to them(drugs, crooked trainers, crooked jockeys....). How many people go on posting forums and complain about the NBA being fixed. These guys make over 10 million a year, but they are somehow going to make sure that the Lakers don't cover. When I used to go to the harness racing in Southern California many years ago(when we actually had harness racing), it was comical. 7 out of 10 people didn't understand the sport at all and they would make some of the stupidest comments in the world. But is was always about how crooked everyone was. It is human nature to blame everything and everyone else for why you lose. The takeout issues that you think are so unimportant are actually the major reason they lose so much and the major reason they keep focusing on all of the negativity. Bottom line is if the game was completely free of drugs and cheating there would still be a grandstand full of angry horse bettors crying about the very same issues. I think if your goal is to make the game completely honest and free of drugs and then in turn convince everyone in the grandstand that it is, then you are looking to achieve the impossible twice. Good luck.

[TheEdge07]

The most damaging article, as far as I am concerned, was the one written by Beyer some years ago...where he stated that suspensions and redistributions of purses in California were handled in a "hush-hush" manner...in order to preserve whatever integrity the game had left.

Checkout Saturdays 2nd race at Monmouth =1 horse..classic Paco..then read what his explaination was to the stewards...
Then take time to watch the 1st race at Monmouth yesterday...no explaination on why the 7 cross over 5 paths impeded the runnerup,, posted inquiry immediately after the wire...hmmm no takedown

[Stillriledup]

The most damaging article, as far as I am concerned, was the one written by Beyer some years ago...where he stated that suspensions and redistributions of purses in California were handled in a "hush-hush" manner...in order to preserve whatever integrity the game had left.

I was listening the other day to Andy Asaro discuss takeout and low takeout DD experiments in So Cal with Madeline Auerbach (Chrb meetings) and she talked to him like he was the enemy and was trying to change her "Way of life" as an owner and breeder. She just didn't understand that he was on her side, i think she viewed anyone who tries to lower takeout as a person who's trying to "take" money out of the pockets of the horsemen....didnt seem like she knew a heck of a lot about the math of the game and how it works.

California racing is in its "own way" for the most part. They're still in the stone ages as far as simulcasting goes, they still don't have "full card" simo, yeah, its 2014 and there's only a certain amount of races they can import. Also, for such a large state, they're just getting around to having places you can bet that are not named Santa Anita, Hollywood, Del Mar and Fairplex.

[Charli125]

So, did all of that hurt handle at Penn National? I would say no, it didnt affect the way people bet or don't bet, so why not just clean up the game and get rid of the bad apples?

That's because nobody bets Penn National as it is!

[lamboguy]

The most damaging article, as far as I am concerned, was the one written by Beyer some years ago...where he stated that suspensions and redistributions of purses in California were handled in a "hush-hush" manner...in order to preserve whatever integrity the game had left.the funny thing is, if they went after the cheats and made it public they would probably have more business.

Baltera Parx just cut purses 20% due to poor slot revenue's.

my prediction is that someday they will need horse racing to subsidize slot machines. the guys running the slot parlors and race tracks could not get a job in any other industry in the world the way i see it.

[Stillriledup]

the funny thing is, if they went after the cheats and made it public they would probably have more business.

Baltera Parx just cut purses 20% due to poor slot revenue's.

my prediction is that someday they will need horse racing to subsidize slot machines. the guys running the slot parlors and race tracks could not get a job in any other industry in the world the way i see it.

They would, because anyone who is paying attention would appreciate the punishment doled out to the cheats. (you know, instead of letting them train the stable from a cellphone while laying on Manhattan Beach sipping pina coladas)

[thespaah]

I was listening the other day to Andy Asaro discuss takeout and low takeout DD experiments in So Cal with Madeline Auerbach (Chrb meetings) and she talked to him like he was the enemy and was trying to change her "Way of life" as an owner and breeder. She just didn't understand that he was on her side, i think she viewed anyone who tries to lower takeout as a person who's trying to "take" money out of the pockets of the horsemen....didnt seem like she knew a heck of a lot about the math of the game and how it works.

California racing is in its "own way" for the most part. They're still in the stone ages as far as simulcasting goes, they still don't have "full card" simo, yeah, its 2014 and there's only a certain amount of races they can import. Also, for such a large state, they're just getting around to having places you can bet that are not named Santa Anita, Hollywood, Del Mar and Fairplex.
"she talked to him like he was the enemy and was trying to change her "Way of life" as an owner and breeder."
This mentality really pisses me off.
This is the same rationale unionized public employees used in reaction to a State government proposal to limit or roll back tax increases.
These people Owners, breeder, trainers, get their noses out of joint whenever making the game less expensive for the bettor is mentioned.
What they don't understand is that the axiom " A quick nickel is better than a slow dollar" applies across the board to business. And it works.

[Stillriledup]

"she talked to him like he was the enemy and was trying to change her "Way of life" as an owner and breeder."
This mentality really pisses me off.
This is the same rationale unionized public employees used in reaction to a State government proposal to limit or roll back tax increases.
These people Owners, breeder, trainers, get their noses out of joint whenever making the game less expensive for the bettor is mentioned.
What they don't understand is that the axiom " A quick nickel is better than a slow dollar" applies across the board to business. And it works.

It was shocking, there was no tone in her voice that she really appreciated all the hard work he's put in, it was a tone that said "why are you here, to try and hurt our game"?

[Tom]

Why you expect a race track to tell you the truth?
How does that affect their bottom line.
I know there is a reason for late odds drops.
But is not an acceptable one.

Horse racing, in 2014 does not know who their customers are.

[Stillriledup]

Why you expect a race track to tell you the truth?
How does that affect their bottom line.
I know there is a reason for late odds drops.
But is not an acceptable one.

Horse racing, in 2014 does not know who their customers are.

At some point, hopefully while we're still young, someone in racing that has power to make really big decisions, realizes that customers are to be treated like gold, not like idiots with addictions.

Sure, there's a segment of this game that will bet no matter what and no matter how much crap the industry throws at them, but there's enough people who are walking away, or betting less, or sitting on the sidelines waiting for the "Game" to get its act together.

The math says so.

It seems like when you become a horsemen and buy a horse or get into the "non betting" side of the game, you automatically feel that anyone who wants to try any new ideas to GROW the game is the enemy that needs to be treated with distain and contempt.