On track 5% less takeout

[EMD4ME]

Forgive me if this has been threaded before.

Has anyone pushed the idea of creating 5% less takeout if you bet on track? With on track handle being ballpark 10% of total handle at ABC RACETRACK (could be more, could be less) and most racetracks getting just the signal fee, doesn't it make sense to offer 5% less takeout if you are on track?

Of course, that will reduce profit for the existing money that is being bet on track regardless but with aggressive marketing, the new on track money that was being bet with a foreign (not the track's ADW) ADW (and only making the signal fee) will create huge profitable gains for the racetrack involved. (go from 3-7% per dollar wagered as profit to 15% to 25% per dollar wagered minus the bonus given).

I know Delaware tried it but maybe they weren't the right market for it. Maybe NYRA can do it or Stronach with 1 or more of his tracks?

Thoughts?

[thespaah]

Forgive me if this has been threaded before.

Has anyone pushed the idea of creating 5% less takeout if you bet on track? With on track handle being ballpark 10% of total handle at ABC RACETRACK (could be more, could be less) and most racetracks getting just the signal fee, doesn't it make sense to offer 5% less takeout if you are on track?

Of course, that will reduce profit for the existing money that is being bet on track regardless but with aggressive marketing, the new on track money that was being bet with a foreign (not the track's ADW) ADW (and only making the signal fee) will create huge profitable gains for the racetrack involved. (go from 3-7% per dollar wagered as profit to 15% to 25% per dollar wagered minus the bonus given).

I know Delaware tried it but maybe they weren't the right market for it. Maybe NYRA can do it or Stronach with 1 or more of his tracks?

Thoughts?
NY OTB's do the opposite. They reduce payoffs by 5% from track prices.

[Poindexter]

Forgive me if this has been threaded before.

Has anyone pushed the idea of creating 5% less takeout if you bet on track? With on track handle being ballpark 10% of total handle at ABC RACETRACK (could be more, could be less) and most racetracks getting just the signal fee, doesn't it make sense to offer 5% less takeout if you are on track?

Of course, that will reduce profit for the existing money that is being bet on track regardless but with aggressive marketing, the new on track money that was being bet with a foreign (not the track's ADW) ADW (and only making the signal fee) will create huge profitable gains for the racetrack involved. (go from 3-7% per dollar wagered as profit to 15% to 25% per dollar wagered minus the bonus given).

I know Delaware tried it but maybe they weren't the right market for it. Maybe NYRA can do it or Stronach with 1 or more of his tracks?

Thoughts?

I think it is a great idea(they would have to do it as a rebate-and they can even get creative and do it as bet vouchers good say during the month of September if you are in August-thus bringing customers back at a later date), it they are going to stick with their current plan. 1) they give new blood attendees and small bettors a much fairer shake at this game 2) They create huge motivation for people in the area to come to live racing which will bring up the energy level (the thing most racetracks need badly) 3) they transform a lot of money that is currently being bet at adw's or even offshore to on track.

It makes a lot of sense to me.

[proximity]

Forgive me if this has been threaded before.........
Thoughts?

no need to apologize because it is good to discuss and the exposure of the concept is good no matter how many times it gets posted.

my views are that i'm much more for aggressive on track rebates (5%+) to revitalize the game for several reasons. here are some:

1. rebates (player rewards) are much easier to implement than takeout reductions.

2. tangible player rewards keep players coming back to your casinos. tangible rewards. 0.6% and overpriced food and drinks don't keep players coming back to racetracks.

3. tangible player rewards are easier for the average player to appreciate than reduced takeout...... and they are more consistently applied. if joe goes 0-20 at the track and loses $1000, lower takeout doesn't do anything for him. under my system he'd at least (at least) have $50-$100 in his account the next day. there is something there in the future for him to come and collect. $6 in his account is a slap in the face, especially when you're charging $3 for a cup of coffee.

[EMD4ME]

I think it is a great idea(they would have to do it as a rebate-and they can even get creative and do it as bet vouchers good say during the month of September if you are in August-thus bringing customers back at a later date), it they are going to stick with their current plan. 1) they give new blood attendees and small bettors a much fairer shake at this game 2) They create huge motivation for people in the area to come to live racing which will bring up the energy level (the thing most racetracks need badly) 3) they transform a lot of money that is currently being bet at adw's or even offshore to on track.

It makes a lot of sense to me.

I love the idea of putting the excess/bonus in a future dated voucher. Creates a reason to come back & if the track mandates that the money be bet (not just cashed, to create additional churn) no problem.

[VeryOldMan]

As Poindexter said, it would have to be done as a rebate or future reward at the track but I'd love it as a recreational fan who enjoys going to the track but has trouble justifying the expense (gas/time/any admission fee/etc.) when I can sit at home and wager on the same races.

Giving fans an incentive to go to the track and watch horse races . . . crazy idea, man. Crazy! ;)

[EMD4ME]

no need to apologize because it is good to discuss and the exposure of the concept is good no matter how many times it gets posted.

my views are that i'm much more for aggressive on track rebates (5%+) to revitalize the game for several reasons. here are some:

1. rebates (player rewards) are much easier to implement than takeout reductions.

2. tangible player rewards keep players coming back to your casinos. tangible rewards. 0.6% and overpriced food and drinks don't keep players coming back to racetracks.

3. tangible player rewards are easier for the average player to appreciate than reduced takeout...... and they are more consistently applied. if joe goes 0-20 at the track and loses $1000, lower takeout doesn't do anything for him. under my system he'd at least (at least) have $50-$100 in his account the next day. there is something there in the future for him to come and collect. $6 in his account is a slap in the face, especially when you're charging $3 for a cup of coffee.


I hear you & could see rebates working. If I had to pick, I'd take the higher payout vs. The additional rebate. There's no reason why both can't be in play though. Most tracks offer rebates anyway. The lower takeout, similar to what Delaware did, would be on top of the rebate.

What if Saratoga , for example had this on the screen:

8- 17.00 7.60 4.80
On track 8- 18.00 8.50 5.40

People would say, why the 2 different prices? How do I get those prices? It would catch on imho.

[jballscalls]

If I remember correctly Delaware Park might have done something like this for exactas a few years ago.

[EMD4ME]

I remember them doing it. I have no idea how it turned out though.

[proximity]

I love the idea of putting the excess/bonus in a future dated voucher. Creates a reason to come back & if the track mandates that the money be bet (not just cashed, to create additional churn) no problem.

that is the free slots play concept in the casinos. i don't like it for racing because (a) the money will most likely be churned anyway and (b) the player should be getting rebates on all horse bets (free slots play doesn't get comps)

the takeout is so ridiculously high in racing that the opportunity does exist (especially in racinos) to offer rewards that are aggressive enough to really get the general public excited about the game though. it's just a matter of management wanting people to get excited about it..... and in general racino management would rather the horses just went away.

[proximity]

I hear you & could see rebates working. If I had to pick, I'd take the higher payout vs. The additional rebate. There's no reason why both can't be in play though. Most tracks offer rebates anyway. The lower takeout, similar to what Delaware did, would be on top of the rebate.

What if Saratoga , for example had this on the screen:

8- 17.00 7.60 4.80
On track 8- 18.00 8.50 5.40

People would say, why the 2 different prices? How do I get those prices? It would catch on imho.

you need to be able to offer rewards for full card simulcasting though too.

[EMD4ME]

you need to be able to offer rewards for full card simulcasting though too.

Not necessarily true. Start with your home track for live racing. As it builds up, maybe then can be there too one day.....

[proximity]

Not necessarily true. Start with your home track for live racing. As it builds up, maybe then can be there too one day.....

sometimes i think of just going back to the start and only playing my home track. unfortunately that is penn national and some of the cards (like saturday night) have been terrible.

[thespaah]

I hear you & could see rebates working. If I had to pick, I'd take the higher payout vs. The additional rebate. There's no reason why both can't be in play though. Most tracks offer rebates anyway. The lower takeout, similar to what Delaware did, would be on top of the rebate.

What if Saratoga , for example had this on the screen:

8- 17.00 7.60 4.80
On track 8- 18.00 8.50 5.40

People would say, why the 2 different prices? How do I get those prices? It would catch on imho.
Only if those wagering off track were within a reasonable travel distance from the host track.
The higher payouts have to make up the difference in travel and other costs.
For example. If a bettor lives 50 miles from the track, the higher payout rates must make up for the gas he will burn, any tolls he may have to pay and of course program and admission fees.
I can tell you this, for a person residing in NJ trying to get to Belmont or Aqueduct, even with EZ Pass, it's close to $20 in tolls. Plus, add in the aggravation of dealing with the seemingly endless traffic issues.
If I still lived up there, I'd have no issue eating the nickel on a dollar surcharge. I'd bet from home.

[Mineshaft]

sometimes i think of just going back to the start and only playing my home track. unfortunately that is penn national and some of the cards (like saturday night) have been terrible.




Wednesday at Penn the largest field size is 8 in a few races. Thistle is like that also

[EMD4ME]

sometimes i think of just going back to the start and only playing my home track. unfortunately that is penn national and some of the cards (like saturday night) have been terrible.

Oh my god, you just gave me many memories.

I grew up at Penn as a kid. Moved to NY many years ago but made trips to Penn once a month for years with my girlfriend. Had the best times sitting at the finish line in the dining area. Believe it or not, I also loved the product. Once made 10,000 going 8/9 on their live races.

I was there live when they announced that the slot referendum was approved. The place blew into a frenzy. I was the only one booing. I told anyone would listen, it's the worst thing for the horseplayer .

I made 2 visits post slots. I was so disgusted. Never went back all this time. The races have totally sucked too. Curse those damn slots.

[Maximillion]

Oh my god, you just gave me many memories.

I grew up at Penn as a kid. Moved to NY many years ago but made trips to Penn once a month for years with my girlfriend. Had the best times sitting at the finish line in the dining area. Believe it or not, I also loved the product. Once made 10,000 going 8/9 on their live races.

I was there live when they announced that the slot referendum was approved. The place blew into a frenzy. I was the only one booing. I told anyone would listen, it's the worst thing for the horseplayer .

I made 2 visits post slots. I was so disgusted. Never went back all this time. The races have totally sucked too. Curse those damn slots.

I can only speak of the last 2 years when I started betting this track.

Yes,there are many (very) weak races there,but from an overall form standpoint ,I personally dont see this track as any more "suspicious" (and maybe even less so) than any other.

[AndyC]

Forgive me if this has been threaded before.

Has anyone pushed the idea of creating 5% less takeout if you bet on track? With on track handle being ballpark 10% of total handle at ABC RACETRACK (could be more, could be less) and most racetracks getting just the signal fee, doesn't it make sense to offer 5% less takeout if you are on track?

Of course, that will reduce profit for the existing money that is being bet on track regardless but with aggressive marketing, the new on track money that was being bet with a foreign (not the track's ADW) ADW (and only making the signal fee) will create huge profitable gains for the racetrack involved. (go from 3-7% per dollar wagered as profit to 15% to 25% per dollar wagered minus the bonus given).

I know Delaware tried it but maybe they weren't the right market for it. Maybe NYRA can do it or Stronach with 1 or more of his tracks?

Thoughts?

I think you greatly overestimate how much money would be changed from ADWs to ontrack bets. Your target audience would be players who live a reasonable driving distance to the track and are now betting at home through an ADW. The incentive would have to be enough to cover the time and expense of going to the track and the missed opportunities of closely watching other tracks.

I currently live about 40 miles from Del Mar. For me it would mean driving roughly 2 hours, paying for parking and admission. So if I bet $200 to win on a 3-1 horse I would get back roughly $820.00 compared to $800.00 if I bet at home. Not exactly a game changer.

[thespaah]

I think you greatly overestimate how much money would be changed from ADWs to ontrack bets. Your target audience would be players who live a reasonable driving distance to the track and are now betting at home through an ADW. The incentive would have to be enough to cover the time and expense of going to the track and the missed opportunities of closely watching other tracks.

I currently live about 40 miles from Del Mar. For me it would mean driving roughly 2 hours, paying for parking and admission. So if I bet $200 to win on a 3-1 horse I would get back roughly $820.00 compared to $800.00 if I bet at home. Not exactly a game changer.
Is there an echo in here? :lol:
I concur. The track would have to make it worthwhile financially to encourage those betting remotely to go to the track.
Not only would they have to use the 5% as an attraction, throw in parking admission and program as well.
I believe the trade off would be a minimum of $200 worth of action for the day.
Perhaps a purchase of a $100 voucher good only THAT day.
This would help offset the higher payoffs and the other concessions.
Of these are what are called "Ideas"....Something sorely lacking in the offices occupied by racetrack managements.

[Robert Goren]

I have long thought that most tracks don't want more people at the track. I think they want them betting over the net. Fewer costs that way.

[AndyC]

I have long thought that most tracks don't want more people at the track. I think they want them betting over the net. Fewer costs that way.


Not if you factor in the costs paid to the ADWs.

[AndyC]

Is there an echo in here? :lol:
I concur. The track would have to make it worthwhile financially to encourage those betting remotely to go to the track.
Not only would they have to use the 5% as an attraction, throw in parking admission and program as well.
I believe the trade off would be a minimum of $200 worth of action for the day.
Perhaps a purchase of a $100 voucher good only THAT day.
This would help offset the higher payoffs and the other concessions.
Of these are what are called "Ideas"....Something sorely lacking in the offices occupied by racetrack managements.


I don't think racing lives or dies with what happens at the track. With roughly 90% of the handle coming from offtrack it would seem that a logical strategy would be to keep and grow that segment.

[LottaKash]

With roughly 90% of the handle coming from offtrack it would seem that a logical strategy would be to keep and grow that segment.

Yeah, you would think, hunh ?....:confused:

[cj]

After spending a week at Del Mar, they may as well make the on track takeout 50%. That crowd just doesn't care. It really is entertainment for the vast majority. It is the ADW segment that needs to be focused on.

[Poindexter]

I don't think racing lives or dies with what happens at the track. With roughly 90% of the handle coming from offtrack it would seem that a logical strategy would be to keep and grow that segment.

Do not think anyone claims it does. Does that mean you do no want to promote the live aspect of racing which many of us grew up with. I understand that if you are working or play 4 tracks a day that spending the day at your local track isn't really something you really want to or can do(it is easier from home or office), but the entertainment value of this sport is something worth promoting. Plenty of recreational bettors might find it a lot more fun to go to the track and watch the races live, see the horses in the paddock and up close and get into the sport a lot more with the excitement of a live crowd(of more than 7 people). Barn tours etc are a nice touch. Racing has already excluded small recreational bettors with any rebates of substance so why would you not want to give them a chance to get some of the "rebates" that 90% of you guys would quit the game if you weren't getting and at the same time be strategic about using them as rewards to bring customers back and build an on track customer base?

When you go to an entertainment venue, you pay. About $15 a head to see a movie these days. How about a baseball game, basketball game, football game. What is Disneyland/Disneyword these days about $100 bucks a head. Do people not drive 30 or 40 minutes to these venues? Can they not watch their local team on tv?

I am not claiming this will save racing (they are already unwilling to do the one thing that will save racing) but it certainly is better than sitting on your hands and relishing the status quo.

[dirty moose]

You guys all have great ideas! Too bad the tracks don't care about us or our ideas. I know for sure, I'd visit the track more often if this was the case.

[AndyC]

Do not think anyone claims it does. Does that mean you do no want to promote the live aspect of racing which many of us grew up with. I understand that if you are working or play 4 tracks a day that spending the day at your local track isn't really something you really want to or can do(it is easier from home or office), but the entertainment value of this sport is something worth promoting. Plenty of recreational bettors might find it a lot more fun to go to the track and watch the races live, see the horses in the paddock and up close and get into the sport a lot more with the excitement of a live crowd(of more than 7 people). Barn tours etc are a nice touch. Racing has already excluded small recreational bettors with any rebates of substance so why would you not want to give them a chance to get some of the "rebates" that 90% of you guys would quit the game if you weren't getting and at the same time be strategic about using them as rewards to bring customers back and build an on track customer base?

When you go to an entertainment venue, you pay. About $15 a head to see a movie these days. How about a baseball game, basketball game, football game. What is Disneyland/Disneyword these days about $100 bucks a head. Do people not drive 30 or 40 minutes to these venues? Can they not watch their local team on tv?

I am not claiming this will save racing (they are already unwilling to do the one thing that will save racing) but it certainly is better than sitting on your hands and relishing the status quo.

If football, baseball and basketball were participation sports you might have a point. The problem is that racing has focused too much on the entertainment value of racing at the expense of the players.

The majority of the 10% ontrack bets comes from owners, trainers, track hands, and racetrack degenerates who don't have ADW accounts whereby they phone in or send in their bets.

[Poindexter]

The majority of the 10% ontrack bets comes from owners, trainers, track hands, and racetrack degenerates who don't have ADW accounts whereby they phone in or send in their bets.

Is this because suddenly nobody else has any interest in spending a day at the races or is this because they have poor marketing, horrible customer service, make the racetrack completely uninviting, they overprice there product and they provide nobody with any reasonable incentive to go to the races?

[AndyC]

Is this because suddenly nobody else has any interest in spending a day at the races or is this because they have poor marketing, horrible customer service, make the racetrack completely uninviting, they overprice there product and they provide nobody with any reasonable incentive to go to the races?

It's been happening for years with the proliferation of OTBs and ADWs.

Unless you like to focus on just 1 track and you live close enough so that it is convenient why bother? I am not going to be entertained.

[thaskalos]

Is this because suddenly nobody else has any interest in spending a day at the races or is this because they have poor marketing, horrible customer service, make the racetrack completely uninviting, they overprice there product and they provide nobody with any reasonable incentive to go to the races?

On-track attendance doesn't mix well with today's full-card simulcasting concept. With races going off every few minutes...what horseplayer worth his salt has the time to enjoy the "ambiance" of the racetrack? Even when attending live, the real horseplayer is much more likely to be found in front of some TV deep in the bowels of the place...rather than outside, enjoying the scenery. So why bother going to the track?

The industry has to realize that they can't have their cake, and eat it too.

[JustRalph]

After spending a week at Del Mar, they may as well make the on track takeout 50%. That crowd just doesn't care. It really is entertainment for the vast majority. It is the ADW segment that needs to be focused on.

I have spent the last two Saturdays at Lonestar Park. I've observed some of the same as you report, even though it's just a very nice Racebook. Lots of younger people just having a good time betting names and numbers.

[Poindexter]

On-track attendance doesn't mix well with today's full-card simulcasting concept. With races going off every few minutes...what horseplayer worth his salt has the time to enjoy the "ambiance" of the racetrack? Even when attending live, the real horseplayer is much more likely to be found in front of some TV deep in the bowels of the place...rather than outside, enjoying the scenery. So why bother going to the track?

The industry has to realize that they can't have their cake, and eat it too.

Really? You guys all follow 5 circuits in an afternoon and play a race every 4 minutes and calculate what tris, and what supers and what pick 3s and what pick4's and what pick 5's and submit alll those tickets and can actually win doing so. Yikes, if I bet more than one track at a time, I may as well mail in a check, because I am not winning. I just can't focus on more than 1 track at a time. Very interesting. You guys are SUPERGAMBLERS. What can I say. I still think there is a market for ordinary(the less than super) folks, but who knows, maybe I am just a little slow :lol: :lol: .

[thaskalos]

Really? You guys all follow 5 circuits in an afternoon and play a race every 4 minutes and calculate what tris, and what supers and what pick 3s and what pick4's and what pick 5's and submit alll those tickets and can actually win doing so. Yikes, if I bet more than one track at a time, I may as well mail in a check, because I am not winning. I just can't focus on more than 1 track at a time. Very interesting. You guys are SUPERGAMBLERS. What can I say. I still think there is a market for ordinary(the less than super) folks, but who knows, maybe I am just a little slow :lol: :lol: .

Not only do I follow all the thoroughbred action of the afternoon...but I am thinking of branching out into the harness action as well. When you get on the dance floor...you gotta dance.

[proximity]

i'd say the vast majority of future players will be introduced to the game at a brick and mortar facility. that they're going to be randomly channel or web surfing, stumble over hrtv or some adw site, and become addicted horse gamblers is somewhat misguided, imo.

imagine those lone star kids jr was talking about getting 5-10% right out of the gate and having access to reasonably priced food and drinks? imagine them spreading the word to family, friends, and coworkers about this deal......

[EMD4ME]

I think you greatly overestimate how much money would be changed from ADWs to ontrack bets. Your target audience would be players who live a reasonable driving distance to the track and are now betting at home through an ADW. The incentive would have to be enough to cover the time and expense of going to the track and the missed opportunities of closely watching other tracks.

I currently live about 40 miles from Del Mar. For me it would mean driving roughly 2 hours, paying for parking and admission. So if I bet $200 to win on a 3-1 horse I would get back roughly $820.00 compared to $800.00 if I bet at home. Not exactly a game changer.

That's why I think it's a great idea for NYRA to do it. They have access to 10 million people within 30 miles of either downstate track.

Trust me, I've known many players who for years attend live races and bet via Twin Spires, Express Bet and many other ADW's as opposed to the house's adw. The 5% source market fee has not deterred business and a 5% on track bonus would make a ton of money for NYRA (or any other track).

Young people love to analyze and gamble. They don't come to the track as they know what the vig is. They know how to find a bargain on line in 5 seconds. Advertise a 5% on track bonus, combined with a drink for every 50 bucks wagered and all of a sudden you have a value add. The track is packed. Top the day off with thank you vouchers (given after race 9) for their next visit and you've created a repeat client.

[EMD4ME]

I have long thought that most tracks don't want more people at the track. I think they want them betting over the net. Fewer costs that way.

Sad but I believe you are 100% correct. Maybe not in all cases but most.

[EMD4ME]

Is there an echo in here? :lol:
I concur. The track would have to make it worthwhile financially to encourage those betting remotely to go to the track.
Not only would they have to use the 5% as an attraction, throw in parking admission and program as well.
I believe the trade off would be a minimum of $200 worth of action for the day.
Perhaps a purchase of a $100 voucher good only THAT day.
This would help offset the higher payoffs and the other concessions.
Of these are what are called "Ideas"....Something sorely lacking in the offices occupied by racetrack managements.

I agree with the other items needed. Bet $100, get a refund on your program. Bet $200, parking is refunded. Bet $300, free drink us.

At the end of the day, swipe your rewards card and get a dated voucher for your next visit (must be wagered).

[Stillriledup]

Not only do I follow all the thoroughbred action of the afternoon...but I am thinking of branching out into the harness action as well. When you get on the dance floor...you gotta dance.

Massive Pentafecta carryover, (20 cent base) at Mohawk this weekend. I think the c/o is 700k and its a mandatory payout.

Get your feet wet!

[dilanesp]

From a supply and demand perspective it really isn't such a great idea. The ADW players probably, as a whole, care a lot more about takeout than on track bettors do. That's why rebate shops flourish.