Mountaineer may not make December (turned into smoking discussion)

[lamboguy]

this year. according to the director of operations, Mountaineer only has enough to pay purses through the middle of November.

i have never seen this before, but i think they cut their purses today in the middle of the book by about 10%. maybe they can cut them again if they think they are going to run out sooner.

[Mineshaft]

they are ending Dec 1st i think not sure

the purse cuts went into effect last week

[Shemp Howard]

If they cut them any lower, who is going to race there but off-the-farm plow horses?

They're all headed to Thisltedowns because of the false positives, anyway,

[Mineshaft]

You can do vet work 21 days out but everyone is getting bad tests 40 days out. Makes no sense.

Hello Thistledowns...........................

[lamboguy]

i think the Mountain was the first to get a casino about 15 years ago. they had a few great years of racing there and plenty of good ones for the casino.

now it looks like racing is in jeopardy, and my guess is that once the new casino opens in Youngstown, Ohio, the casino will be in plenty trouble too.

[Shemp Howard]

They carded
$1,500 claimers before as Waterford Park and may do it again

[Mineshaft]

i think Charlestown also cut purses

[lamboguy]

they are ending Dec 1st i think not sure

the purse cuts went into effect last weekon August 12 the MSW purse was $19,400, today they are $17,800. they don't race thursday and friday and they didn't have a MSW race Saturday. therefore the way i see it, this is the first day with discount purses.

[Mineshaft]

on August 12 the MSW purse was $19,400, today they are $17,800. they don't race thursday and friday and they didn't have a MSW race Saturday. therefore the way i see it, this is the first day with discount purses.



August 16 was the 1st day of cuts. The cuts are not reflected in the condition book. I got this from there overnite.

[andtheyreoff]

I really don't think this is THAT big of a development. It's not like Mountaineer running only nine months instead of ten is going to be that big of a deal in terms of the overall racing scene.

And, frankly, a lot of tracks have to start consolidating dates. Monmouth and Parx shouldn't be racing at the same time, for example. Pimlico should close on Preakness Day, and Delaware should run from Memorial Day weekend until Timonium opens. The three Ohio tracks can each operate for four months a year without intersecting. It wouldn't be a bad idea for Remington to wait until Canterbury closes to start running their meet. Same goes for Hawthorne following the closing of Oaklawn.

I know someone is going to think, "well, back in MY day, Parx and Atlantic City and Laurel and Monmouth and Delaware and Belmont raced at the same time and the fields were big and the racing was great and everything was sunshine and rainbows!" Well, who cares! That model isn't sustainable anymore. Nor should it be. If racing wants to survive, tracks have to downsize their meets. They don't have to close- nor should most of them- but cutting dates is a virtual requirement.

[tanner12oz]

They have were approved to cut dates next year

[lamboguy]

August 16 was the 1st day of cuts. The cuts are not reflected in the condition book. I got this from there overnite.it looks like you are right on that one. all i was saying was that its pretty rare to see purses cut in the middle of the book. usually they wait until the new book comes out.

[castaway01]

I really don't think this is THAT big of a development. It's not like Mountaineer running only nine months instead of ten is going to be that big of a deal in terms of the overall racing scene.

And, frankly, a lot of tracks have to start consolidating dates. Monmouth and Parx shouldn't be racing at the same time, for example. Pimlico should close on Preakness Day, and Delaware should run from Memorial Day weekend until Timonium opens. The three Ohio tracks can each operate for four months a year without intersecting. It wouldn't be a bad idea for Remington to wait until Canterbury closes to start running their meet. Same goes for Hawthorne following the closing of Oaklawn.

I know someone is going to think, "well, back in MY day, Parx and Atlantic City and Laurel and Monmouth and Delaware and Belmont raced at the same time and the fields were big and the racing was great and everything was sunshine and rainbows!" Well, who cares! That model isn't sustainable anymore. Nor should it be. If racing wants to survive, tracks have to downsize their meets. They don't have to close- nor should most of them- but cutting dates is a virtual requirement.

With the exception of Parx, which has to run year-round to have the right to simulcast, ALL of the other tracks you mentioned have cut their meet sizes from just a few years ago, and they'll likely continue to do so until eventually there are no meets. So you'll get your wish.

The Mountaineer purse cuts are far from unprecedented---it's happening all over racing, so while it's not good news, I also don't know what makes it remarkable.

[thespaah]

I really don't think this is THAT big of a development. It's not like Mountaineer running only nine months instead of ten is going to be that big of a deal in terms of the overall racing scene.

And, frankly, a lot of tracks have to start consolidating dates. Monmouth and Parx shouldn't be racing at the same time, for example. Pimlico should close on Preakness Day, and Delaware should run from Memorial Day weekend until Timonium opens. The three Ohio tracks can each operate for four months a year without intersecting. It wouldn't be a bad idea for Remington to wait until Canterbury closes to start running their meet. Same goes for Hawthorne following the closing of Oaklawn.

I know someone is going to think, "well, back in MY day, Parx and Atlantic City and Laurel and Monmouth and Delaware and Belmont raced at the same time and the fields were big and the racing was great and everything was sunshine and rainbows!" Well, who cares! That model isn't sustainable anymore. Nor should it be. If racing wants to survive, tracks have to downsize their meets. They don't have to close- nor should most of them- but cutting dates is a virtual requirement.
A lot of guys on here disagree with my theory that "less is more", and some flame me for that sentiment, but I'm telling anyone who will listen, this is coming. The days of 100, 150 or 200 day meets are OVER.
The practice of tracks racing on top of each other, competing for the same stock in such close geographic proximity are killing racing. It has to stop.
The view i have on these extended meets is twofold. One, the horsemen demanded it. Horsemen as a group have a lot of clout. They could literally scuttle an entire race meet ( Colonial is an example) by simply saying "we don't agree"..
State racing authorities desire longer meets because of the revenue generated.
Racetracks simply cannot continue to operate under the current business model. It's not healthy.

[Milkshaker]

If they're truly concerned about revenue, Mnr should stop running their major race up against the Whitney every summer. Big bucks thrown away in lost handle, as discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on this board.

[cj]

If they're truly concerned about revenue, Mnr should stop running their major race up against the Whitney every summer. Big bucks thrown away in lost handle, as discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on this board.

Couldn't hurt, but goes way deeper than that.

[tanner12oz]

I really don't think this is THAT big of a development. It's not like Mountaineer running only nine months instead of ten is going to be that big of a deal in terms of the overall racing scene.

And, frankly, a lot of tracks have to start consolidating dates. Monmouth and Parx shouldn't be racing at the same time, for example. Pimlico should close on Preakness Day, and Delaware should run from Memorial Day weekend until Timonium opens. The three Ohio tracks can each operate for four months a year without intersecting. It wouldn't be a bad idea for Remington to wait until Canterbury closes to start running their meet. Same goes for Hawthorne following the closing of Oaklawn.

I know someone is going to think, "well, back in MY day, Parx and Atlantic City and Laurel and Monmouth and Delaware and Belmont raced at the same time and the fields were big and the racing was great and everything was sunshine and rainbows!" Well, who cares! That model isn't sustainable anymore. Nor should it be. If racing wants to survive, tracks have to downsize their meets. They don't have to close- nor should most of them- but cutting dates is a virtual requirement.

what do you do with these MASSIVE venues hogging up prime real estate land for the other 10 months a year they aren't running?

i personally think your need to multipurpose these venues and not simply dump slots somewhere either. have concerts, bbq's, fairs, amusement rides...whoever owns these venues isn't going to have them simply sit idle and then pass up a sweet deal for a wrecking ball

[tanner12oz]

A lot of guys on here disagree with my theory that "less is more", and some flame me for that sentiment, but I'm telling anyone who will listen, this is coming. The days of 100, 150 or 200 day meets are OVER.
The practice of tracks racing on top of each other, competing for the same stock in such close geographic proximity are killing racing. It has to stop.
The view i have on these extended meets is twofold. One, the horsemen demanded it. Horsemen as a group have a lot of clout. They could literally scuttle an entire race meet ( Colonial is an example) by simply saying "we don't agree"..
State racing authorities desire longer meets because of the revenue generated.
Racetracks simply cannot continue to operate under the current business model. It's not healthy.

foal crop is something like 22k right now...you are talking about literally tens of thousands of horses that simply don't exist to fill races. all you have to do is some math to realize its game over for big fields, big cards, big meets. the crop looks to have stabilized with 22k being the same as the previous year. you have to remember though theres a lag with the foal crops which makes me think its going to get worse as far as field size, consolidation before you see any improvement whatsoever....

maybe try to entice more euro or foreign runners to come over...i don't don't but the game appears to be dying from every direction

[Robert Goren]

Smaller crops of foals or not, the real problem is money. Even slot money has its limits. If you don't have enough money to run a long meet with decent purses, there is nothing the track can do but cut dates. They can't pull money out of thin air. The days of ever increasing purses and ever increasing dates are over especially for the small tracks. Everybody including the bettors and the horsemen are going have to learn to deal with it. The goose that lays the golden eggs can only lay so many in a day.

[Mineshaft]

If they're truly concerned about revenue, Mnr should stop running their major race up against the Whitney every summer. Big bucks thrown away in lost handle, as discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on this board.




I seriously doubt thats the problem.

[PressThePace]

A lot of guys on here disagree with my theory that "less is more", and some flame me for that sentiment, but I'm telling anyone who will listen, this is coming. The days of 100, 150 or 200 day meets are OVER.
The practice of tracks racing on top of each other, competing for the same stock in such close geographic proximity are killing racing. It has to stop.
The view i have on these extended meets is twofold. One, the horsemen demanded it. Horsemen as a group have a lot of clout. They could literally scuttle an entire race meet ( Colonial is an example) by simply saying "we don't agree"..
State racing authorities desire longer meets because of the revenue generated.
Racetracks simply cannot continue to operate under the current business model. It's not healthy.

I couldn't agree more. I think it is silly to run meets any longer than 3 months....speaking as a patron. I'm sure my view would change if I was a horseman however.

[forced89]

There are issues all over the place but three I see are (1) fewer foals being born; (2) more horses running in states where they are bred; and (3) horses running less frequently.

I think the reason they run less frequently is the use of Lasix across the board which extends the time horses need to recuperate after a race. I remember the days when we would run horses every 7-10 days. Now it is pretty much once a month.

Thus fewer horses and more time off between races results in smaller fields and the ramifications thereof.

[RXB]

now it looks like racing is in jeopardy, and my guess is that once the new casino opens in Youngstown, Ohio, the casino will be in plenty trouble too.

Mahoning Valley is going to be a big blow to Mountaineer, for sure. Casino revenues are going to plunge.

Mountaineer has $22 million for purses this year. Awhile ago, John Baird (HBPA Prez) said they'd be "lucky to do $15 million" for purses in 2015. They're already trimming purses and reducing races this year; imagine what's coming next year.

[tanner12oz]

Mahoning will cannibalize meadows and Presque isle also...

[HUSKER55]

I have always thought that an indoor track that operated year round and was internet only would generate more revenue, better fields and would be profitable.

I don't think it would be as expensive as you think.

[thespaah]

Mahoning will cannibalize meadows and Presque isle also...
Hmm. I think those who live farthest from those venues who do travel to them, will be those who choose to go to Mahoning Valley instead.
With all these new gaming venues being built, I believe the gaming industry is falling into the same trap the tracks have. That is too many venues in close geographic proximity competing for the same gambling dollar.

[thespaah]

I have always thought that an indoor track that operated year round and was internet only would generate more revenue, better fields and would be profitable.

I don't think it would be as expensive as you think.
NASCAR actually looked at that possibility a few years ago.
The idea was to build an indoor track one mile in circumference.

I don't think an indoor climate controlled building is practical.
However, perhaps some kind of structure built over a track to keep out precipitation is an idea worth exploring.

[tanner12oz]

Hmm. I think those who live farthest from those venues who do travel to them, will be those who choose to go to Mahoning Valley instead.
With all these new gaming venues being built, I believe the gaming industry is falling into the same trap the tracks have. That is too many venues in close geographic proximity competing for the same gambling dollar.

agree 100%...the gambling pie is only so big and everyone wants a cut which makes each slice smaller

[bello]

Presque Isle
Hazel Park
Thistledown
Belterra
a bit further
Finger Lakes
Fort Erie
and soon to come
Mahoning Valley

all competing for horseflesh and betting dollars and subsidized by casino revenues that are dwindling. This is a false economy and racing, purses and upkeep of the tracks are not where the money is

Some will have to close and more than one. We all know the casino operators largely could not care less for the racing entity. Is a means to an end. Mountaineer was a pioneering racino. It is in the middle of nowhere but folks flocked to it from PA, Ohio, etc because it was the only place to go. Well it's still in the middle of nowhere, but there are far more racetracks and casinos while this facility ages. Ar Mountaineer at least, more is at stake than just the racing. And I agree, you will not only be seeing ghose town racetrack but also ghost town casinos. Starting with Atlantic City.

[Mineshaft]

Mountaineer needs to go to a 4 day week

[castaway01]

Presque Isle
Hazel Park
Thistledown
Belterra
a bit further
Finger Lakes
Fort Erie
and soon to come
Mahoning Valley

all competing for horseflesh and betting dollars and subsidized by casino revenues that are dwindling. This is a false economy and racing, purses and upkeep of the tracks are not where the money is

Some will have to close and more than one. We all know the casino operators largely could not care less for the racing entity. Is a means to an end. Mountaineer was a pioneering racino. It is in the middle of nowhere but folks flocked to it from PA, Ohio, etc because it was the only place to go. Well it's still in the middle of nowhere, but there are far more racetracks and casinos while this facility ages. Ar Mountaineer at least, more is at stake than just the racing. And I agree, you will not only be seeing ghose town racetrack but also ghost town casinos. Starting with Atlantic City.

I'm not sure if location means much, other than from a shipping standpoint for owners and trainers. Some of these tracks get more than 90 percent of their wagers from simulcast, so they could be located pretty much anywhere. However, your overall point is accurate, as well as how the casinos are going to start to feel the pinch, which will trickle down to racetracks. Tracks will have to deal with less purse money from slots as it's divided up amongst more casinos (unless they have deals to get money from the new casinos), more competition for horses, and quite possibly smaller handle totals. Not a pretty picture.

[RXB]

Location matters a lot. Youngstown has been a major target market for Mountaineer; the new casino there is going to put a serious damper on Mountaineer's revenues.

[mountainman]

Rumor has big purse cuts impending at the track formerly known as River Downs. And the state had to MAKE Austintown build a barn area and grandstand to go along with the oval. Mountaineer's misfortunes don't make the future of ohio racing healthy or bright.

WV confiscated and redirected a large portion of gaming revenues previously fed into our purses. Does ANYONE seriously think the same grim reaper won't eventually visit other racinos? It's inevitable, and coming soon to a state near you.

Behind the scenes, ohio horsemen I've spoken with fear there's an endgame already planned for ohio racing. But, of course, still several years down the road.

[BMustang]

Rumor has big purse cuts impending at the track formerly known as River Downs.

True! Belterra Park (River Downs) will, or has cut purses 20%.

I personally thought that the initial purse structure was agressive, however, the horse racing side of the business has exceeded expectations. There have been large crowds for live racing, and the racebook is SRO on Friday, Saturday, and Sundays. It also seems to me like live racing is driving the casino business. No live racing - few casino customers. I'm thinking maybe a limited hours (say from 8am to 3am) casino operation might be more efficient (Saratoga Harness does it).

In regards to Mountaineer, things have been going downhill since the "We'll keep the slots on for ya" guy got axed. We used to take a group of six of us up for an annual Sunday through Thursday in October stay, and loved it. Well the cost of the roooms kept getting higher. The coffee shop didn't open until noon, and the deli in the Speakeasy didn't open until 5pm. In other words, it was tough getting breakfast and lunch. They even got rid of the fish in the aquariums in the lobby. So, we stopped going and now make the same trip to Churchill Downs/Horseshoe Casino, Elizabeth, Indiana. We'd much rather come to the mountain where everything was self-contained, but they literally ran us off.

[thespaah]

Rumor has big purse cuts impending at the track formerly known as River Downs. And the state had to MAKE Austintown build a barn area and grandstand to go along with the oval. Mountaineer's misfortunes don't make the future of ohio racing healthy or bright.

WV confiscated and redirected a large portion of gaming revenues previously fed into our purses. Does ANYONE seriously think the same grim reaper won't eventually visit other racinos? It's inevitable, and coming soon to a state near you.

Behind the scenes, ohio horsemen I've spoken with fear there's an endgame already planned for ohio racing. But, of course, still several years down the road.
If I understand correctly, monies which were going from casinos to enhance purses at Mountaineer are being taken by Charleston and used for other purposes?
If so, this is so typical of government. Spend far more than it receives, then steals money from other sources so that politicians can cover their posteriors.
Brilliant.

[Maximillion]

True! Belterra Park (River Downs) will, or has cut purses 20%.

I personally thought that the initial purse structure was agressive, however, the horse racing side of the business has exceeded expectations. There have been large crowds for live racing, and the racebook is SRO on Friday, Saturday, and Sundays. It also seems to me like live racing is driving the casino business. No live racing - few casino customers. I'm thinking maybe a limited hours (say from 8am to 3am) casino operation might be more efficient (Saratoga Harness does it).

In regards to Mountaineer, things have been going downhill since the "We'll keep the slots on for ya" guy got axed. We used to take a group of six of us up for an annual Sunday through Thursday in October stay, and loved it. Well the cost of the roooms kept getting higher. The coffee shop didn't open until noon, and the deli in the Speakeasy didn't open until 5pm. In other words, it was tough getting breakfast and lunch. They even got rid of the fish in the aquariums in the lobby. So, we stopped going and now make the same trip to Churchill Downs/Horseshoe Casino, Elizabeth, Indiana. We'd much rather come to the mountain where everything was self-contained, but they literally ran us off.

The crowds may be good,but they arent doing much in terms of handle.

Wish this wasnt the case, as I have found the racing there to be very formful--and it would appear they at least have a chance at drawing some new fans.

[Mineshaft]

Mountaineer is down to 8 races per card for the remainder of the meet

[thespaah]

The crowds may be good,but they arent doing much in terms of handle.

Wish this wasnt the case, as I have found the racing there to be very formful--and it would appear they at least have a chance at drawing some new fans.
Hours of operation at racinos and casinos connected to race tracks.
I never saw any wisdom is having these casinos/racinos open 24 hours.
Between say 1am and 6am there has to be very little play. Yet, the place has to be open. That means labor costs, utility costs, the people that clean the place have to dodge the customers. Why not just make it simple and have a 18 hour operation ( 6 am to midnight or maybe 1 am) and be done with it.
So fewer employees are needed. So what.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'd love to be the guy yelling "last call" to a room full of button poking maniacs that have blown $700 but still have $35 to get even with.

[thespaah]

The crowds may be good,but they arent doing much in terms of handle.

Wish this wasnt the case, as I have found the racing there to be very formful--and it would appear they at least have a chance at drawing some new fans.
What's the avg per capita?

[mountainman]

I'd love to be the guy yelling "last call" to a room full of button poking maniacs that have blown $700 but still have $35 to get even with.

Hilarious

[Clocker]

In other words, it was tough getting breakfast and lunch. They even got rid of the fish in the aquariums in the lobby.

You were that hard up for breakfast? :eek:

[thespaah]

I'd love to be the guy yelling "last call" to a room full of button poking maniacs that have blown $700 but still have $35 to get even with.
That is friggin hilarious!!!!!

[BMustang]

You were that hard up for breakfast? :eek:

I appreciate the humor. Simply citing how desperate they were with their cutbacks.

[Stillriledup]

Anyone notice late odds changes the last 2 days at this place?

In the first race yesterday, the 9 was the favorite all thru the betting, and the winner ended up favored.

In the 4th race yesterday, the 7 horse was hovering at 5-1, but those who bet this horse at 5-1 very late in the betting, got 2-1.

In the 5th race yesterday, i could have sworn the winner was 9-1 or 12-1 late in the betting, he won at 5-1.

In the 7th race yesterday, it was a "2 horse race" the 1 and the 6. My odds updated as the gate opened and the 1 was favored slightly. The winner ended up being heavily favored at the end.

Today, the 6th race, the winner, i dont remember him being 2-1, he got an easy lead. I dont remember the 3 being the 2nd betting choice. The 5 horse was 6-1 at closing, i could have sworn he was much lower at the load.

[burnsy]

With the exception of Parx, which has to run year-round to have the right to simulcast, ALL of the other tracks you mentioned have cut their meet sizes from just a few years ago, and they'll likely continue to do so until eventually there are no meets. So you'll get your wish.

The Mountaineer purse cuts are far from unprecedented---it's happening all over racing, so while it's not good news, I also don't know what makes it remarkable.

I don't think andtheyreoff or thespa are wishing for this just because they point it out. IMO they are realist with pretty good observations. This has been coming for years...;people just love to criticize the messenger. I've been saying the same thing for a while...people hate to hear it, but its coming. Even as we sit here and watch it happen, there will be some that deny it and deflect the issue. Just because people can see it....doesn't mean they are wishing for it. The old racetrack business model is going down....wake up and smell the coffee already. How exactly is this their fault (or wish)? I wish racing was like the 1930's through the 70's......but what are the chances of that? When people jump all over a pretty accurate opinion because they don't like it? Well, I don't see any evidence that shoots their opinion down. Don't look over there....its not remarkable........yeah, ok.;)

[FocusWiz]

Anyone notice late odds changes the last 2 days at this place?I had not noticed but may watch for this in the future.

In the first race yesterday, the 9 was the favorite all thru the betting, and the winner ended up favored.

In the 4th race yesterday, the 7 horse was hovering at 5-1, but those who bet this horse at 5-1 very late in the betting, got 2-1.I was away and was not watching, until the 5th race.

In the 5th race yesterday, i could have sworn the winner was 9-1 or 12-1 late in the betting, he won at 5-1.I thought there was something very odd. in the wagering. About 10 minutes before post time all of the horses went way up as someone dumped a ton of money on the :2: horse. The :1: went from 6/1 to over 20/1, the :4: went from around 11/1 to over 30/1, The :5: went from 4/1 to 9/1. The :6: went from 12/1 to 35//1 and the :7: went from 9/1 to nearly 25/1. All of these had been steadily dropping from early in the race. About 2 minutes into the race there was a big wager on the :2: which sent all of them up initially and they dropped steadily until that second big wager came in. I see what you mean. The :7: (the eventual winner) was never at lower odds than at the close of the race. Attached is a graph that shows the odd wagering pattern in this race.

In the 7th race yesterday, it was a "2 horse race" the 1 and the 6. My odds updated as the gate opened and the 1 was favored slightly. The winner ended up being heavily favored at the end.This did not look too strange to me, since I have seen this pattern many times. However, given the other points you noted, perhaps there was a whale watching Mountaineer that day who liked to bet late.

Today, the 6th race, the winner, i dont remember him being 2-1, he got an easy lead. I dont remember the 3 being the 2nd betting choice. The 5 horse was 6-1 at closing, i could have sworn he was much lower at the load.Yeah. I saw that but did not think much of it. Here is what I captured (odds are in decimal form, so 3.0 is 2/1 and 4.5 would be 7/2, etc). There was a lot of wagering on quite a few horses near the end. I think multiple players were involved as opposed to one whale who could not make up his mind:1 Lubava (KY) 11 11 10 5.5 10 11 12 12 9 8 8 10 10 10 11 10 10 10 10 11 12 10 12 16
2 Electric Boat (KY) 9 9 9 10 10 11 11 11 12 11 11 14 14 14 13 14 13 13 14 14 16 20 22 27
3 What Say You (ON) [WIN] 8 8 8 8 6 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 4.5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4.5 5 4.5 3
4 Hearts Wild (FL) [PLACE] 2.2 2.2 2.2 2.5 2.5 2.6 2.6 2.6 2.6 2.8 2.8 3 3 3 3.5 3 3 3 3.5 3 3.5 3.5 2.8 3
5 Ashby Land (ON) 6 6 6 7 6 7 6 6 7 8 7 8 8 8 7 7 7 7 8 9 9 4.5 5.5 7
6 Tour for Love (FL) [SHOW] 3 3 3 3 3 2.8 2.8 2.8 2.6 2.8 2.6 2.2 2.2 2.2 2.2 2.2 2.2 2.2 2 2.2 2 2.5 2.8 2.6
Not sure what to make of it. There is always late money and the late money (if it is smart) generally goes to a horse with a chance to win. The :3: :4: and :5: all saw money at the end. Two of those finished in the money, but the :5: had torouble finding the finish line.

[Stillriledup]

Thank you FW, really appreciate the writeup, great stuff!

[Thebigguy]

Presque Isle
Hazel Park
Thistledown
Belterra
a bit further
Finger Lakes
Fort Erie
and soon to come
Mahoning Valley

all competing for horseflesh and betting dollars and subsidized by casino revenues that are dwindling. This is a false economy and racing, purses and upkeep of the tracks are not where the money is

Some will have to close and more than one. We all know the casino operators largely could not care less for the racing entity. Is a means to an end. Mountaineer was a pioneering racino. It is in the middle of nowhere but folks flocked to it from PA, Ohio, etc because it was the only place to go. Well it's still in the middle of nowhere, but there are far more racetracks and casinos while this facility ages. Ar Mountaineer at least, more is at stake than just the racing. And I agree, you will not only be seeing ghose town racetrack but also ghost town casinos. Starting with Atlantic City.


All of these listed tracks should be blown up or wash off into the ocean. I can name another 5 that need to go for good. We need NYRA, Gulfstream, Keeneland, Churchill, Santa Anita and Del Mar. Everything else being gone would be perfectly fine with me.

[EMD4ME]

All of these listed tracks should be blown up or wash off into the ocean. I can name another 5 that need to go for good. We need NYRA, Gulfstream, Keeneland, Churchill, Santa Anita and Del Mar. Everything else being gone would be perfectly fine with me.

If all those tracks go, how would people that live in those areas learn to like horse racing and then bet money into the big track's pools?

[Robert Goren]

Although I supported things like simulcasting and internet betting when they were first introduced, I think it is becoming increasing clear that they hurt racing as whole. In fact almost everything tried in the last 30 years to help racing has backfired and ended up hurting it more than it helped. Leading the pack in bad ideas was the racino. In the end, the purse money from slots has exceeded the money lost from the handle to the one armed bandits. Remember many of the areas that now have racinos would not have casino gambling if were not for horse racing want it. Maybe they would have gotten it anyway eventually, but I don't think that is clear. If it weren't not for the racinos, horse racing would become a leaner, meaner product. Sure some tracks would have closed if they hadn't gotten casino gambling ( as Aksarben did), but in the long run the game would have been healthier. The sad thing is that racinos not only hurt their own tracks but also tracks close by that didn't go the racino route.

[jballscalls]

If all those tracks go, how would people that live in those areas learn to like horse racing and then bet money into the big track's pools?

they most likely wouldn't.

[andtheyreoff]

they most likely wouldn't.

Exactly. That's why the whole idea of closing tracks left and right is ridiculous. How else are people going to bet if the tracks they go to don't exist? Not all of them are going to open up ADW accounts.

[jballscalls]

Exactly. That's why the whole idea of closing tracks left and right is ridiculous. How else are people going to bet if the tracks they go to don't exist? Not all of them are going to open up ADW accounts.

I don't know many bettors/fans who were created by ADW's. in fact I don't know any, but i'm sure they're out there.

Every sport has local options, teams etc. small tracks are the minor leagues, feeder tracks to the big tracks. there is no "college horseracing" or "aau horseracing" or "rec league horse racing" for people to participate in and get involved, learn the sport. There's just the live tracks.

[Hambletonian]

people used to be able to go to the county fair, but most of those have closed.

fact is, enjoy it while you can. horse racing will soon cease to be a relevant source of gaming revenue, and shortly thereafter it will contract.

and without trying to be a debbie downer, once it contracts it will never come back.

case in point, Rillito Downs, where the powers that be have been desperately trying to turn a racetrack into soccer fields, since presumably the Downs is the only flat land in the City of Tucson (snark intended). They suggested moving the track to the tune of 10 or more million dollars, which would be great if they could get a 10 million year loan. without gaming, who would build a racetrack to get 2% of a couple million dollars handle a day? whats that come out to, 40k a racing day? good luck making that work, which is why the new racinos have grandstands that are smaller than the local HS football stadiums.

Once casinos become established, and real estate rebounds, racing will be devoured. And once it shrinks, every aspect will contract rapidly. How many breeding farms, or sires, do you need to supply horses for 5 tracks?

We really all need to enjoy it while it lasts....because it is going soon. people in America strongly favor slots and casino gambling; animal racing, not so much.

[mountainman]

All of these listed tracks should be blown up or wash off into the ocean. I can name another 5 that need to go for good. We need NYRA, Gulfstream, Keeneland, Churchill, Santa Anita and Del Mar. Everything else being gone would be perfectly fine with me.

Your scenario creates an entirely new set of problems for racing. BIG problems. Proposed contraction sparked a lively debate here a few months back. Check the thread out if you get a chance. It's a fun read and illuminating on both sides.

[Tall One]

We need NYRA, Gulfstream, Keeneland, Churchill, Santa Anita and Del Mar. Everything else being gone would be perfectly fine with me.



Not a bad list; but who gets the Preakness? :faint:

[cj]

There is plenty of room for racing all over the country, the meets just need to be curtailed...a lot. There are too many days and too many races for not enough horses.

[cutchemist42]

Your scenario creates an entirely new set of problems for racing. BIG problems. Proposed contraction sparked a lively debate here a few months back. Check the thread out if you get a chance. It's a fun read and illuminating on both sides.

Anyone got a link to thread? Tried searching for a few words but it didnt seem to pull up the right results.

[ronsmac]

All of these listed tracks should be blown up or wash off into the ocean. I can name another 5 that need to go for good. We need NYRA, Gulfstream, Keeneland, Churchill, Santa Anita and Del Mar. Everything else being gone would be perfectly fine with me.90% of my handle has been at Oaklawn the last couple of years, if they close I'm gone.

[Show Me the Wire]

90% of my handle has been at Oaklawn the last couple of years, if they close I'm gone.

I don't think there is a cause for concern or is there?

[Tall One]

There is plenty of room for racing all over the country, the meets just need to be curtailed...a lot. There are too many days and too many races for not enough horses.



Agreed. I believe a return to a more seasonal schedule is in order.

[castaway01]

I don't think there is a cause for concern or is there?

Oaklawn experienced a 12% handle gain this year, so I'd say the doors won't shut anytime soon.

[RXB]

The inevitable is approved: no Mountaineer in December. Charles Town also cutting Tuesdays in Nov & Dec.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/88028/mountaineer-charles-town-okd-to-cut-dates

[Stillriledup]

Is the mountain actually running tonight? CT cancelled, is Mountain going to run?

[tanner12oz]

Oaklawn experienced a 12% handle gain this year, so I'd say the doors won't shut anytime soon.

product is actually pretty good..customer service blows like just about everywhere else in the industry but its a good product...all the boutique meets seem to do well with a decent product

[FormalGold1]

Mountaineer is going smoke free on July 1, 2015. Total ban. No exemption for the casino. This ban is so repugnant that patrons will not be allowed to smoke on the track apron!
Coupled with the opening of Mahoning Downs, a severe blow for purses. Look for a 20-30% drop next year.
Mountaineer employs appx. 1,200 workers. At least 300 will lose their job due to this ridiculous smoking ban.

[Robert Goren]

Mountaineer is going smoke free on July 1, 2015. Total ban. No exemption for the casino. This ban is so repugnant that patrons will not be allowed to smoke on the track apron!
Coupled with the opening of Mahoning Downs, a severe blow for purses. Look for a 20-30% drop next year.
Mountaineer employs appx. 1,200 workers. At least 300 will lose their job due to this ridiculous smoking ban.This is not 1990. Non smokers avoid places that allow smoking today like the plague. The question for Mountaineer is how to bring back the bettors who stopped going there because of the smoking. I suspect Mountaineer did not have a choice in the matter. State laws are making more places smoke free. Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think. The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.

[tanner12oz]

This is not 1990. Non smokers avoid places that allow smoking today like the plague. The question for Mountaineer is how to bring back the bettors who stopped going there because of the smoking. I suspect Mountaineer did not have a choice in the matter. State laws are making more places smoke free. Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think. The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.

maybe I'm in the minority but I'm a non smoker and I honestly do not care if it stays smoking. Its a casino, racetrack I mean what do you expect. Going to the track and smoking a cigar is as American as apple pie. Why this stuff isn't put up for public vote is beyond me...you either have people running the show hundreds of miles away in the capital or the vocal minority dictating for the majority. I'm near the area so I catch alot of stories on it and the patrons and employees like it just fine the way it is...there us no tidal wave of non smokers running over mnr.

[JohnGalt1]

Mountaineer is going smoke free on July 1, 2015. Total ban. No exemption for the casino. This ban is so repugnant that patrons will not be allowed to smoke on the track apron!
Coupled with the opening of Mahoning Downs, a severe blow for purses. Look for a 20-30% drop next year.
Mountaineer employs appx. 1,200 workers. At least 300 will lose their job due to this ridiculous smoking ban.

Canterbury Park went smoke free years ago. Some of the same concerns were raised.

Since the ban, the card room with about 80 poker and casino games table are always filled. Track attendance is up, betting is up.

Yes purses are up because of the deal with Mystic Lake casino four miles to the south (and being on tribal land, they don't have to abide by the state ban on indoor smoking, so smokers can drive a short distance to smoke,) but those who go once or twice a year to watch horse racing don't care if horses run for $3k purses or 10k purses.

Running aces harness track is also smoke free. When I'm in the area I will eat lunch, and about half the time the blackjack tables are full and I just leave.

I'm not saying that Canterbury and Running Aces would be less busy with smoking, but smoke free has not hurt.

This morning I heard only 18% of adults smoke, and many who smoke either don't mind not smoking for awhile or actually like gambling in a smoke free environment.

As to 300 losing there jobs over this, I'm sure Canterbury and Running Aces have added jobs, but not because of the smoking ban.

Many fear change, and maybe people there will react differently to Minnesotan's, but give it a chance.

And good news, your clothes won't smell like an ashtray when you leave. :)

[Stillriledup]

This is not 1990. Non smokers avoid places that allow smoking today like the plague. The question for Mountaineer is how to bring back the bettors who stopped going there because of the smoking. I suspect Mountaineer did not have a choice in the matter. State laws are making more places smoke free. Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think. The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.

Great post, i enjoyed reading this very much. :ThmbUp:

[FormalGold1]

NEW CUMBERLAND, W.Va. — Despite emotional, last-minute pleas from Mountaineer Casino, Racetrack & Resort employees, the Hancock County health board on Tuesday unanimously approved an indoor, countywide smoking ban with no exemptions for gaming facilities.

The proposed ban is rather extensive. For instance customers couldn't even go outside the casino to smoke or smoke on the racetrack apron. Mountaineer director of racing Rose Mary Williams said management offered to greatly limit smoking in hotel rooms, on the gaming floor, in restaurants and bars, and agreed to alter schedules if employees want to work in smoke-free areas.
As it stands now, it's a total property ban, said Williams, who noted it goes so far as to require patrons to get in their vehicles to smoke.
"This is going to be devastating for Hancock County," Robinson said. "And it doesn't look good at this point."


“Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think.”

Non Gamblers don’t like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit gambling think.

How does that sound ? It’s all about denormalization of smokers.

“The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.”

You must be one of these naïve proles who believe every healthiest scare story released by the main stream media. Red meat is bad. Sugar, dairy, gluten, all dangerous.

The science for second hand smoke is not settled. Ask the only group that is responsible for indoor work environments: O.S.H.A. They have determined that there are not sufficient Permissible Exposure Limits (PELs) of second hand smoke to be deemed dangerous.

If you enjoy non smoking gambling establishments, you might like the Revel in A.C.

[Stillriledup]

NEW CUMBERLAND, W.Va. — Despite emotional, last-minute pleas from Mountaineer Casino, Racetrack & Resort employees, the Hancock County health board on Tuesday unanimously approved an indoor, countywide smoking ban with no exemptions for gaming facilities.

The proposed ban is rather extensive. For instance customers couldn't even go outside the casino to smoke or smoke on the racetrack apron. Mountaineer director of racing Rose Mary Williams said management offered to greatly limit smoking in hotel rooms, on the gaming floor, in restaurants and bars, and agreed to alter schedules if employees want to work in smoke-free areas.
As it stands now, it's a total property ban, said Williams, who noted it goes so far as to require patrons to get in their vehicles to smoke.
"This is going to be devastating for Hancock County," Robinson said. "And it doesn't look good at this point."


“Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think.”

Non Gamblers don’t like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit gambling think.

How does that sound ? It’s all about denormalization of smokers.

“The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.”

You must be one of these naïve proles who believe every healthiest scare story released by the main stream media. Red meat is bad. Sugar, dairy, gluten, all dangerous.

The science for second hand smoke is not settled. Ask the only group that is responsible for indoor work environments: O.S.H.A. They have determined that there are not sufficient Permissible Exposure Limits (PELs) of second hand smoke to be deemed dangerous.

If you enjoy non smoking gambling establishments, you might like the Revel in A.C.

Here's what you're not getting. Even if you go to far lengths to prove that 2nd hand smoke is not bad for you, people still don't want to smell it.

If i started a bonfire on your lawn and got huge industrial fans to blow the smoke towards your front porch, would you care? After all, the smoke isn't bad for you, so you shouldn't mind, right?

[duncan04]

NEW CUMBERLAND, W.Va. — Despite emotional, last-minute pleas from Mountaineer Casino, Racetrack & Resort employees, the Hancock County health board on Tuesday unanimously approved an indoor, countywide smoking ban with no exemptions for gaming facilities.

The proposed ban is rather extensive. For instance customers couldn't even go outside the casino to smoke or smoke on the racetrack apron. Mountaineer director of racing Rose Mary Williams said management offered to greatly limit smoking in hotel rooms, on the gaming floor, in restaurants and bars, and agreed to alter schedules if employees want to work in smoke-free areas.
As it stands now, it's a total property ban, said Williams, who noted it goes so far as to require patrons to get in their vehicles to smoke.
"This is going to be devastating for Hancock County," Robinson said. "And it doesn't look good at this point."


“Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think.”

Non Gamblers don’t like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit gambling think.

How does that sound ? It’s all about denormalization of smokers.

“The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.”

You must be one of these naïve proles who believe every healthiest scare story released by the main stream media. Red meat is bad. Sugar, dairy, gluten, all dangerous.

The science for second hand smoke is not settled. Ask the only group that is responsible for indoor work environments: O.S.H.A. They have determined that there are not sufficient Permissible Exposure Limits (PELs) of second hand smoke to be deemed dangerous.

If you enjoy non smoking gambling establishments, you might like the Revel in A.C.


Boohoo. Ohio has the ban and the casinos and racinos are doing well. The doomsayers who say a smoking ban will hurt business will be proven wrong like it has been in Ohio and elsewhere.

[castaway01]

NEW CUMBERLAND, W.Va. — Despite emotional, last-minute pleas from Mountaineer Casino, Racetrack & Resort employees, the Hancock County health board on Tuesday unanimously approved an indoor, countywide smoking ban with no exemptions for gaming facilities.

The proposed ban is rather extensive. For instance customers couldn't even go outside the casino to smoke or smoke on the racetrack apron. Mountaineer director of racing Rose Mary Williams said management offered to greatly limit smoking in hotel rooms, on the gaming floor, in restaurants and bars, and agreed to alter schedules if employees want to work in smoke-free areas.
As it stands now, it's a total property ban, said Williams, who noted it goes so far as to require patrons to get in their vehicles to smoke.
"This is going to be devastating for Hancock County," Robinson said. "And it doesn't look good at this point."


“Non Smokers don't like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit smoking think.”

Non Gamblers don’t like, but these days nobody cares what people who too dumb to quit gambling think.

How does that sound ? It’s all about denormalization of smokers.

“The numbers on second hand smoke are overwhelming. So get over it. Smokers do not have the right to give anybody else cancer.”

You must be one of these naïve proles who believe every healthiest scare story released by the main stream media. Red meat is bad. Sugar, dairy, gluten, all dangerous.

The science for second hand smoke is not settled. Ask the only group that is responsible for indoor work environments: O.S.H.A. They have determined that there are not sufficient Permissible Exposure Limits (PELs) of second hand smoke to be deemed dangerous.

If you enjoy non smoking gambling establishments, you might like the Revel in A.C.

Are you arguing that secondhand smoke is good for you or just that everyone who breathes it won't get cancer? Then you compare it to red meat. Eating red meat in normal amounts (you may have some meat in your mouth whenever your cig isn't, but personally I'm not into that) isn't in itself toxic, which breathing chemicals into your lungs is. The facts on smoking have been established for 40 years. Hell, PETS in homes where people smoke are more likely to get cancer. I don't know if you're the retired Marlboro Man (oh wait, he died from lung cancer) or what, but you win the Internet award today for dumbest argument.

[Stillriledup]

Are you arguing that secondhand smoke is good for you or just that everyone who breathes it won't get cancer? Then you compare it to red meat. Eating red meat in normal amounts (you may have some meat in your mouth whenever your cig isn't, but personally I'm not into that) isn't in itself toxic, which breathing chemicals into your lungs is. The facts on smoking have been established for 40 years. Hell, PETS in homes where people smoke are more likely to get cancer. I don't know if you're the retired Marlboro Man (oh wait, he died from lung cancer) or what, but you win the Internet award today for dumbest argument.

:ThmbUp:

[FormalGold1]

"Are you arguing that secondhand smoke is good for you or just that everyone who breathes it won't get cancer?"

It's harmless. Read the scientific documents. You are breathing toxic chemicals every time you cook food. Dose makes the poison. Ever hear of that, Mr. Scientist ? That's where the Occupational Safety and Health Administration comes in. They are the scientists responsible for safe exposure limits.

" Hell, PETS in homes where people smoke are more likely to get cancer."

Labs have been trying to induce lung cancer from second hand smoke in lab animals for over 60 years.
No success. There is no significant statistical difference of lung cancer among the animals with the control group. That's after wasting millions of grant money.

[Stillriledup]

"Are you arguing that secondhand smoke is good for you or just that everyone who breathes it won't get cancer?"

It's harmless. Read the scientific documents. You are breathing toxic chemicals every time you cook food. Dose makes the poison. Ever hear of that, Mr. Scientist ? That's where the Occupational Safety and Health Administration comes in. They are the scientists responsible for safe exposure limits.

" Hell, PETS in homes where people smoke are more likely to get cancer."

Labs have been trying to induce lung cancer from second hand smoke in lab animals for over 60 years.
No success. There is no significant statistical difference of lung cancer among the animals with the control group. That's after wasting millions of grant money.

So, ok, you're right, smoking isn't bad for you. BUT, you didn't answer my question about the bonfire on your front lawn. Go back and read it and try and get back to me, if you don't mind.

[RXB]

Ah, if lung cancer was the only effect of secondhand smoke.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/111/20/2684.abstract

"Secondhand smoke increases the risk of coronary heart disease by ≈30%. This effect is larger than one would expect on the basis of the risks associated with active smoking and the relative doses of tobacco smoke delivered to smokers and nonsmokers."

[FormalGold1]

"Here's what you're not getting. Even if you go to far lengths to prove that 2nd hand smoke is not bad for you, people still don't want to smell it."

Oh I get it. You are in agreement with me. It's not about health. It's irritating to these health board nanny zealots.

Many non smoking Mountaineer employees will be laid-off. Isn't that just wonderful for society ?

It's a casino and race track, not a nursery school.

Why does Las Vegas receive an exemption for their casinos ? It's good for business. Right.

[Stillriledup]

"Here's what you're not getting. Even if you go to far lengths to prove that 2nd hand smoke is not bad for you, people still don't want to smell it."

Oh I get it. You are in agreement with me. It's not about health. It's irritating to these health board nanny zealots.

Many non smoking Mountaineer employees will be laid-off. Isn't that just wonderful for society ?

It's a casino and race track, not a nursery school.

Why does Las Vegas receive an exemption for their casinos ? It's good for business. Right.

Why take a shot at people who dont want to smell it?

You're actually irritated that people don't want to smell other people's smoke? You think its an unreasonable request? There are a lot of people with allergies and asthma and other conditions and you're going to make fun of them for that?

[Robert Goren]

maybe I'm in the minority but I'm a non smoker and I honestly do not care if it stays smoking. Its a casino, racetrack I mean what do you expect. Going to the track and smoking a cigar is as American as apple pie. Why this stuff isn't put up for public vote is beyond me...you either have people running the show hundreds of miles away in the capital or the vocal minority dictating for the majority. I'm near the area so I catch alot of stories on it and the patrons and employees like it just fine the way it is...there us no tidal wave of non smokers running over mnr. You need to talk to a cancer doctor. I unfortunately have had do it to twice. When my mother died from cancer 10 years ago or when I got it last year. It really is about public health and not about politics. I know the smokers would like to ignore the health effects that second hand smoke causes the people around them. There is not a medical doctor any where who will say that second hand smoke does not an adverse effect.
When Nebraska passed a public smoking law 10 years ago. I heard the same arguments. It did not negatively effect attendance at the local race track one iota. Attendance actually went up a bit right after the ban went into effect. Then in a few months it continued its decline like every other race track in the country. Banning smoking is not the reason racing is in trouble. It is not even one of several dozen reasons that racing is in trouble.

[FormalGold1]

Why take a shot at people who dont want to smell it?

You're actually irritated that people don't want to smell other people's smoke? You think its an unreasonable request? There are a lot of people with allergies and asthma and other conditions and you're going to make fun of them for that?

You can only be allergic to a protein. Smoke has no protein so therefore, it's chemically impossible to be 'allergic' to it.
I do not smoke around people with asthma or any breathing problem. I am surely not making fun of them.
I do not like to smell certain cheap perfume or cologne. Or smelly body odor. Should we ban these people from Mountaineer ? Have the Health Board do a hygienic scan at the front door ?

[tanner12oz]

Why take a shot at people who dont want to smell it?

You're actually irritated that people don't want to smell other people's smoke? You think its an unreasonable request? There are a lot of people with allergies and asthma and other conditions and you're going to make fun of them for that?

in 2014 there are people who are allergic to everything..lets open casinos with personal cubicles that are sanitized after every use..no offense but the " going to mtr makes my clothes stink" argument is silly and there is no reason the have widespread sweeping changes over "stinky clothes". Why not simply build an adjacent smoking or non smoking building that is connected but an actual separate facility?

[tanner12oz]

You can only be allergic to a protein. Smoke has no protein so therefore, it's chemically impossible to be 'allergic' to it.
I do not smoke around people with asthma or any breathing problem. I am surely not making fun of them.
I do not like to smell certain cheap perfume or cologne. Or smelly body odor. Should we ban these people from Mountaineer ? Have the Health Board do a hygienic scan at the front door ?

when you leave the confines of your home and enter a public space *gasp* you might be subjected to other people and or behaviors that you yourself do not condone or find annoying..simply what goes along with interacting with other human beings who are all different and unique. I have never in my life heard the phrase " I'm not going to the casino because people smoke there" however I have heard the phrase "I will not go to the casino because I can't smoke"..just my own personal experience

[mountainman]

Regardless of protests from smokers or their advocates, the curtailment of smoking is a genie that's not going back in the bottle. A BIG genie with a mandate and on a mission.

Smokers who feel like outcasts or second-class citizens haven't seen ANYTHING yet. Someday, it will be outlawed in homes where minors live and in public parks. And there's nothing smokers can do about it. Their safe haven and comfort zones will continue to shrink. It's inexorable.

I'm a non-smoker, btw.

[Stillriledup]

You can only be allergic to a protein. Smoke has no protein so therefore, it's chemically impossible to be 'allergic' to it.
I do not smoke around people with asthma or any breathing problem. I am surely not making fun of them.
I do not like to smell certain cheap perfume or cologne. Or smelly body odor. Should we ban these people from Mountaineer ? Have the Health Board do a hygienic scan at the front door ?

I know you don't believe this, but some people think second hand smoke is bad for people's health *i know, gasp!* . If you can get some really smart people to come up with a study or a report that suggests the smell of cheap cologne or body odor is bad for someone else's health and you present it to the movers and shakers at Mountaineer Casino, maybe you'll have a shot to get those people banned too.

[Stillriledup]

in 2014 there are people who are allergic to everything..lets open casinos with personal cubicles that are sanitized after every use..no offense but the " going to mtr makes my clothes stink" argument is silly and there is no reason the have widespread sweeping changes over "stinky clothes". Why not simply build an adjacent smoking or non smoking building that is connected but an actual separate facility?

I'm sure they would build anything you want if you foot the bill for construction.

[MONEY]

You can only be allergic to a protein. Smoke has no protein so therefore, it's chemically impossible to be 'allergic' to it.
I do not smoke around people with asthma or any breathing problem. I am surely not making fun of them.
I do not like to smell certain cheap perfume or cologne. Or smelly body odor. Should we ban these people from Mountaineer ? Have the Health Board do a hygienic scan at the front door ?

Tobacco leaves have protein & there is a good chance that unburnt microscopic
particles of protein are a component of cigarette smoke. Also Nickel is a metal and I don't think that metals have protein in them. Many people are allergic to nickel. Please educate me if I am wrong.

[FormalGold1]

Tobacco leaves have protein & there is a good chance that unburnt microscopic
particles of protein are a component of cigarette smoke. Also Nickel is a metal and I don't think that metals have protein in them. Many people are allergic to nickel. Please educate me if I am wrong.

Tobacco allergy claims are classic junk science. There is no tobacco smoke antigen. And that this is THE reputable scientific opinion can be deduced from the fact that this information comes from a 28-page article, with 227 references, intended to present the "State of the Art" to professionals, in the American Review of Respiratory Disease, the journal of the American Lung Association. (GT O'Connor et al. The role of allergy and nonspecific airway hyperresponsiveness in the pathogenesis of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Am Rev Respir Dis 1989;140:225-252).

[FormalGold1]

Regardless of protests from smokers or their advocates, the curtailment of smoking is a genie that's not going back in the bottle. A BIG genie with a mandate and on a mission.

Smokers who feel like outcasts or second-class citizens haven't seen ANYTHING yet. Someday, it will be outlawed in homes where minors live and in public parks. And there's nothing smokers can do about it. Their safe haven and comfort zones will continue to shrink. It's inexorable.

I'm a non-smoker, btw.

I have the highest admiration for your work at Mountaineer. In fact, I always tell my friends that your are the best in the business.
I agree with you that these anti-smokers (as opposed to non-smokers) are on a mission:

The largest business to oppose the smoking ban, Mountaineer Racetrack and Casino, reacted to the news by saying: "The Hancock County Board of Health has shown a complete disregard for the documentation provided by Mountaineer as if a predisposed decision had already been made. Mountaineer received no response on its numerous requests to discuss materials, or any questions in regards to the information provided. The vote today was made in the face of an unprecedented effort from Mountaineer to work with the Health Department staff to offer compromises that would have been a step forward for the residents in terms of health, and would save jobs and economic disorder for the county and surrounding municipalities. With this 100 percent ban on smoking, Mountaineer anticipates a considerable negative effect on its business, which will force us to consider unfortunate alternatives."

These fascist zealots will not even discuss a compromise with Mountaineer.

I disagree that these bans are inexorable. Remember what happened in 1933 ?
Prohibition was repealed. There is hope.

[tanner12oz]

I'm sure they would build anything you want if you foot the bill for construction.

I think the issue is even a second facility that was completely enclosed and limited to smokers only and you had to sign a stinky clothes waiver to get in would still be outlawed by the state...

[Stillriledup]

I think the issue is even a second facility that was completely enclosed and limited to smokers only and you had to sign a stinky clothes waiver to get in would still be outlawed by the state...

Isn't it easier to just quit smoking? Does every smoker have to have a loved one die of diseases caused by smoking to learn, or can they learn without having death knock on their door?

[Robert Goren]

Some people still have not figured it out. Non-smokers are not going to go anyplace where smoking is allowed anymore. If mountaineer thinks it can survive by chasing off over 80% of its potential customers, the people running it must think they are running a race track.

[MONEY]

Tobacco allergy claims are classic junk science. There is no tobacco smoke antigen. And that this is THE reputable scientific opinion can be deduced from the fact that this information comes from a 28-page article, with 227 references, intended to present the "State of the Art" to professionals, in the American Review of Respiratory Disease, the journal of the American Lung Association. (GT O'Connor et al. The role of allergy and nonspecific airway hyperresponsiveness in the pathogenesis of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Am Rev Respir Dis 1989;140:225-252).

OK, I understand the bad reactions that some people have to
cigarette smoke are not caused by allergies. So maybe the
allergy like symptoms are caused by Formaldehyde, Arsenic,
Hydrogen cyanide or any other of the Hundreds of toxic
chemicals that make up cigarette smoke.


http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/sgr/2010/consumer_booklet/chemicals_smoke/

[mountainman]

I have the highest admiration for your work at Mountaineer. In fact, I always tell my friends that your are the best in the business.
I agree with you that these anti-smokers (as opposed to non-smokers) are on a mission:

The largest business to oppose the smoking ban, Mountaineer Racetrack and Casino, reacted to the news by saying: "The Hancock County Board of Health has shown a complete disregard for the documentation provided by Mountaineer as if a predisposed decision had already been made. Mountaineer received no response on its numerous requests to discuss materials, or any questions in regards to the information provided. The vote today was made in the face of an unprecedented effort from Mountaineer to work with the Health Department staff to offer compromises that would have been a step forward for the residents in terms of health, and would save jobs and economic disorder for the county and surrounding municipalities. With this 100 percent ban on smoking, Mountaineer anticipates a considerable negative effect on its business, which will force us to consider unfortunate alternatives."

These fascist zealots will not even discuss a compromise with Mountaineer.

I disagree that these bans are inexorable. Remember what happened in 1933 ?
Prohibition was repealed. There is hope.

tx for the kind words. Your post is eloquent and makes some good points. But I suspect that on truth serum you'd admit the tide is unlikely to turn, smokers are defeated and will be beaten down even worse. Anything else is wishful thinking on the part of smokers. The future isn't looking so good for them.

Just my opinion, and tx for the response, sir.

[Canarsie]

I'm going to add my two cents not that it means anything.

First off I was a three pack a day smoker till I quit cold turkey around 32 years ago. My late mom (msrip) was dying of colon cancer and my son was just turning two. The evidence wasn't as comprehensive as it is today but those two reasons were enough for me. There was zero chance my son was going to be exposed to secondhand smoke. I thank my wife and late mom for this they tried very hard without twisting my arm to quit.

After the first paragraph you would think I'm an extremist but I'm actually aware of a smokers plight and try to give them some wiggle room in both my house or car. They can smoke in my car all they want but the ashtray is used for change and there is zero tolerance for using it to stash butts. You can smoke in my house though I prefer you go outside. Most people are appreciative of this and choose the outdoor route. I still have around half a dozen ash trays in closets they are rarely if ever used now.

I feel for the smoker because I was one myself. Again just my opinion but I think it's more addictive than marijuana by a country mile. Amazingly lots of people who smoke (sorry no data) are against smoking weed to me they are both tobacco products that can't be good for you lungs. Marijuana does have it's place for people whose appetites have declined dramatically and other diseases. I don't smoke that either but my policy would be exactly the same as long as there were no minors in the car or home.


Having said all of this the chances of smokers getting almost any rule or law relaxed is near zero. The political ramifications would mean instant defeat in the next election even in tobacco friendly states except for really rural ones that farm it.

NJ was one of the last northeast states to bar smoking in bars and they reaped a financial windfall. But when push came to shove that went out the door. Its become an issue the lobbyists just can't win.

While the smoker is dramatically denied access to smoking areas the drinkers (far worse) usually get carte blanche to alter their brain cells. We were at a family gathering a few weeks ago and a table of six was making so much noise they cut them off from any additional alcohol. So what did they do? Went to the bar and bought more drinks back with them. Somehow the penalties aren't right a group like this should at least receive summonses to appear in court they could be endangering lives within an hour. Even better would be lock their vehicle till two hours at bare minimum passes. Yet the smoker receives a substantial fine for lighting up while the drinker would be free to go and endanger lives.

I don't have an answer on how to help a smoker quit, cut down on consumption, or not making other patrons feel uncomfortable. But if there was an answer out there I would probably support it since I know how difficult the habit is. You can see how contentious the smokers arguments are here quoting scientific journals that I can't read beyond the first page sometimes.

[FormalGold1]

I'm going to add my two cents not that it means anything.

First off I was a three pack a day smoker till I quit cold turkey around 32 years ago. My late mom (msrip) was dying of colon cancer and my son was just turning two. The evidence wasn't as comprehensive as it is today but those two reasons were enough for me. There was zero chance my son was going to be exposed to secondhand smoke. I thank my wife and late mom for this they tried very hard without twisting my arm to quit.

After the first paragraph you would think I'm an extremist but I'm actually aware of a smokers plight and try to give them some wiggle room in both my house or car. They can smoke in my car all they want but the ashtray is used for change and there is zero tolerance for using it to stash butts. You can smoke in my house though I prefer you go outside. Most people are appreciative of this and choose the outdoor route. I still have around half a dozen ash trays in closets they are rarely if ever used now.

I feel for the smoker because I was one myself. Again just my opinion but I think it's more addictive than marijuana by a country mile. Amazingly lots of people who smoke (sorry no data) are against smoking weed to me they are both tobacco products that can't be good for you lungs. Marijuana does have it's place for people whose appetites have declined dramatically and other diseases. I don't smoke that either but my policy would be exactly the same as long as there were no minors in the car or home.


Having said all of this the chances of smokers getting almost any rule or law relaxed is near zero. The political ramifications would mean instant defeat in the next election even in tobacco friendly states except for really rural ones that farm it.

NJ was one of the last northeast states to bar smoking in bars and they reaped a financial windfall. But when push came to shove that went out the door. Its become an issue the lobbyists just can't win.

While the smoker is dramatically denied access to smoking areas the drinkers (far worse) usually get carte blanche to alter their brain cells. We were at a family gathering a few weeks ago and a table of six was making so much noise they cut them off from any additional alcohol. So what did they do? Went to the bar and bought more drinks back with them. Somehow the penalties aren't right a group like this should at least receive summonses to appear in court they could be endangering lives within an hour. Even better would be lock their vehicle till two hours at bare minimum passes. Yet the smoker receives a substantial fine for lighting up while the drinker would be free to go and endanger lives.

I don't have an answer on how to help a smoker quit, cut down on consumption, or not making other patrons feel uncomfortable. But if there was an answer out there I would probably support it since I know how difficult the habit is. You can see how contentious the smokers arguments are here quoting scientific journals that I can't read beyond the first page sometimes.

You sound like a sensible non-smoker. I enjoyed your honest thoughts. The large pharmaceutical corporations earned over 4.5 billion last year from smoking cessation products. They are funding most of these smoking bans. One of their most profitable products is Phizer’s Chantix :
As Pfizer Pharmaceutical tries to wind down the more than 2,500 lawsuits regarding Chantix side effects, it is choosing to settle with a majority of plaintiffs. According to recent reports, the company has already agreed to pay out $273 million to 80 percent of the claimants, or roughly 2,100 victims

You will continue to see Chantix heavily advertised on T.V. Airline pilots, railroad engineers and many truck drivers are forbidden to use this dangerous product. However, many doctors continue to prescribe it. Chantix profited over one billion in 2013.

I see that you quit smoking cold turkey. Good choice. Nicotine patches and gum have a 97% failure rate. E-cigarettes or Vapers are much better. This is due to the fact that they mimic the behavior of cigarette smoking. Smoking is a psychological addiction. Not physiological. Very similar to gambling addicts. Gamblers are not physiologically addicted to a slot machine, etc.

E-cigarettes emit over 99% odorless water vapor. These anti-smokers are banning them also. It ‘looks’ like cigarettes. They are not a tobacco product. You see how deceitful and repulsive these zealots behave. Big Pharma does not want any competition for their smoke cessation products. It’s not about health. It’s big money.

[FormalGold1]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]Here's what you're not getting. Even if you go to far lengths to prove that 2nd hand smoke is not bad for you, people still don't want to smell it.

The Hancock County smoking ban for Mountaineer includes electronic smoking devices. These are ODORLESS !

These control freaks are uncompromising, ,vindictive, and megalomaniacal. They will not respond to any questions or documents submitted by management at Mountaineer.

[Nets]

You sound like a sensible non-smoker. I enjoyed your honest thoughts. The large pharmaceutical corporations earned over 4.5 billion last year from smoking cessation products. They are funding most of these smoking bans. One of their most profitable products is Phizer’s Chantix :
As Pfizer Pharmaceutical tries to wind down the more than 2,500 lawsuits regarding Chantix side effects, it is choosing to settle with a majority of plaintiffs. According to recent reports, the company has already agreed to pay out $273 million to 80 percent of the claimants, or roughly 2,100 victims

You will continue to see Chantix heavily advertised on T.V. Airline pilots, railroad engineers and many truck drivers are forbidden to use this dangerous product. However, many doctors continue to prescribe it. Chantix profited over one billion in 2013.

I see that you quit smoking cold turkey. Good choice. Nicotine patches and gum have a 97% failure rate. E-cigarettes or Vapers are much better. This is due to the fact that they mimic the behavior of cigarette smoking. Smoking is a psychological addiction. Not physiological. Very similar to gambling addicts. Gamblers are not physiologically addicted to a slot machine, etc.

E-cigarettes emit over 99% odorless water vapor. These anti-smokers are banning them also. It ‘looks’ like cigarettes. They are not a tobacco product. You see how deceitful and repulsive these zealots behave. Big Pharma does not want any competition for their smoke cessation products. It’s not about health. It’s big money.

I agree. The anti-smoking "mafia" despise e-cigs for some reason. Almost like they won't be happy unless all smokers are denied any options. I don't get it.

[FormalGold1]

I agree. The anti-smoking "mafia" despise e-cigs for some reason. Almost like they won't be happy unless all smokers are denied any options. I don't get it.

Funny that you used 'mafia' . We use a few bookies that are loosely connected to organized crime. Mostly sports betting. We have never had a problem with these guys. They are stand-up fellas. When you get jammed-up they will work with you to square-up.

I would rather deal with them than these Health Board whack jobs.

[Robert Goren]

Funny that you used 'mafia' . We use a few bookies that are loosely connected to organized crime. Mostly sports betting. We have never had a problem with these guys. They are stand-up fellas. When you get jammed-up they will work with you to square-up.

I would rather deal with them than these Health Board whack jobs.So everybody who does not want to deal with your attempt to poison them and the people trying to prevent you from doing it is "whack job". You are a real piece of work.

[Tom]

So everybody who does not want to deal with your attempt to poison them and the people trying to prevent you from doing it is "whack job". You are a real piece of work.
E cigarettes poison others?

[TJDave]

I believe smokers should be allowed to smoke anywhere I can't smell it.

[Clocker]

Bans on E-cigs are one more glaring example of the liberal concern for appearance over substance.

Smoking is dumb, but I see no problem with it if it doesn't affect others. Most tracks have a large apron, and the far left part of it is rarely used except a couple of days a year for huge races. I would think a smoking area could be set off there, perhaps week-days only.

[FormalGold1]

So everybody who does not want to deal with your attempt to poison them and the people trying to prevent you from doing it is "whack job". You are a real piece of work.

Let's try an experiment: I'll fill up my closed garage with 25 smokers. You go in your closed garage and start up your vehicle. I'll call you in 3 hours to see how you are doing.
You are attempting to poison my children with your toxic exhaust fumes. Go ride a bike. Stop burning toxic organic matter at your barbecue. Better yet, get a cabin at Walden's pond and stay off the grid.

[FormalGold1]

OSHA SAFE LEVELS

All this is in a small sealed room 9×20 and must occur in ONE HOUR.

For Benzo[a]pyrene, 222,000 cigarettes.

“For Acetone, 118,000 cigarettes.

“Toluene would require 50,000 packs of simultaneously smoldering cigarettes.

Acetaldehyde or Hydrazine, more than 14,000 smokers would need to light up.

“For Hydroquinone, “only” 1250 cigarettes.

For arsenic 2 million 500,000 smokers at one time.

The same number of cigarettes required for the other so called chemicals in shs/ets will have the same outcomes.

So, OSHA finally makes a statement on shs/ets :

Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)…It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded.” -Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec’y, OSHA.

[Tom]

Let's try an experiment: I'll fill up my closed garage with 25 smokers. You go in your closed garage and start up your vehicle. I'll call you in 3 hours to see how you are doing.
You are attempting to poison my children with your toxic exhaust fumes. Go ride a bike. Stop burning toxic organic matter at your barbecue. Better yet, get a cabin at Walden's pond and stay off the grid.

That is a ridiculous argument. The two things are not remotely the same.
People die from secondhand smoke all the time, at worst, and have to suffer through the smell both in person and on their clothes. Smoking indoors should be banned inmost public places, with some exceptions. Outside at a track, I see no problem.

E ciggy's? No way they should be banned anywhere.
All those stat you cite in desperation for your habit.....two things - do you bring your own ashtray and dispose of your waste or do you expect someone else to clean up after you?

I speak as an ex-smoker, who never smoked where others objected. Lighting one in a room affects everyone and the room itself over time. Do you pay to have the furniture and drapes cleaned to get rid of the terrible smell you put on them? OR the rugs?

[MONEY]

OSHA SAFE LEVELS

All this is in a small sealed room 9×20 and must occur in ONE HOUR.

For Benzo[a]pyrene, 222,000 cigarettes.

“For Acetone, 118,000 cigarettes.

“Toluene would require 50,000 packs of simultaneously smoldering cigarettes.

Acetaldehyde or Hydrazine, more than 14,000 smokers would need to light up.

“For Hydroquinone, “only” 1250 cigarettes.

For arsenic 2 million 500,000 smokers at one time.

The same number of cigarettes required for the other so called chemicals in shs/ets will have the same outcomes.

So, OSHA finally makes a statement on shs/ets :

Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)…It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded.” -Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec’y, OSHA.
These examples do not include the effects 7000 different chemicals all being present at the same time.

[Stillriledup]

Let's try an experiment: I'll fill up my closed garage with 25 smokers. You go in your closed garage and start up your vehicle. I'll call you in 3 hours to see how you are doing.
You are attempting to poison my children with your toxic exhaust fumes. Go ride a bike. Stop burning toxic organic matter at your barbecue. Better yet, get a cabin at Walden's pond and stay off the grid.

There's still time to get help. Its not too late.

[Robert Goren]

I have to admit that as former smoker, I have become some what of a fanatic on smoking. Having your mother die from cancer and getting yourself tends to make you fanatic. A former customer of mine who is a retired Urologist said in no uncertain terms that my bladder cancer was caused by my smoking even though I quit over 30 years ago. He said to me as friend "quitting smoking reduces your chances of getting cancer, but it does take them to zero". With what we know today about smoking and second hand smoke, why would you want to risk your own health and the health of those around you, just to have a cigarette or a cigar?

[FormalGold1]

NEW CUMBERLAND – Despite emotional, last-minute pleas from Mountaineer Casino, Racetrack and Resort employees, the Hancock County health board on Tuesday unanimously approved an indoor, countywide smoking ban with no exemptions for gaming facilities.
The long-anticipated action makes Hancock County the 29th county in West Virginia to adopt a comprehensive Clean Air Regulation that bans smoking in all indoor public places and places of employment.
For months, the policy under consideration by the five-member board has divided the county – between people who say they don’t want to be exposed to secondhand smoke and people who say the regulation will drive out-of-state smokers away from Mountaineer and other gaming destinations.
The debate also has been intensely watched at the state level, bringing out anti-tobacco activists and supporters of the state’s gaming industry.
In the end, health board members said their chief aim, the promotion of public health, will be good for the Hancock County economy.
The regulation, which takes effect on July 1, 2015, bans smoking in all restaurants, gaming facilities, private clubs, sports arenas, places of employment and concert venues, as well as certain outdoor public places.
“Change is a hard thing,” health board member Phil Rujak said, “but everyone will adapt.”
Rujak, who made the motion to adopt the policy, said he has “great confidence” that Mountaineer and other smoking ban opponents will be able to adjust. “Those people are smart business people. They have the ability and the know-how to make things work,” he said.

Well, Mr Rujak, if I lived in West Virginia’s Hancock County, I wouldn’t “adapt”. I’d simply stop going to restaurants, casinos, clubs, sports arenas, and concerts. And maybe certain outdoor public places as well. I’d*stay home, and meet up with my smoking friends in their homes. And if 20% of Hancock County’s residents are smokers, and they all do the same as I would, then that’s 20% of those places’ customers lost. Maybe more.
And what’s this about*“Those people are smart business people. They have the ability and the know-how to make things work”? How do they “make things work” when a fifth or a quarter of their customers have gone, and they have no way to win them back?

Of the five casinos in West Virginia, only the Greenbrier in White Sulfur Springs and Mardi Gras Casino & Resort in Cross Lanes near Charleston prohibit smoking. The latter is the result of stricter smoking regulations adopted by Kanawha County in 2008, said Christina Mickey, project coordinator for the Smoke-Free Initiative of West Virginia.
Elsewhere in the state – at Hollywood Casino at Charles Town Races and Wheeling Island Hotel-Casino-Racetrack – stricter smoking regulations adopted by Jefferson County in 2004 and Ohio County in 2005 have exemptions for gaming facilities.
But Mickey said the trend in the state is toward the kind of action taken Tuesday by the Hancock County health board.
“In the past five or six years, we haven’t seen a board of health that has gone back to revisit regulations make any exemptions. This (Hancock County) regulation is very consistent with what other boards are passing,” she said.
“West Virginia boards of health are following the same national trend, which is going back and removing any exemptions where workers and the public are exposed (to secondhand smoke),” Mickey said. “With the addition of Hancock County’s regulation, that will be three of the five casinos that will be smoke-free.”


Apart from shattering communities,Mickey said the mentality of some smoking ban opponents that “the sky is falling” is unwarranted and unsupported by the evidence.
“It’s more how the business owner accepts and transitions to a status of a smoke-free environment, and makes the most of this change, that impacts their business,” she said.

Well, actually, Ms Mickey, for some people the sky really is falling. And if you don’t know it, it’s because you’re looking at the wrong evidence. Smoking bans also hobble businesses. And it’s not just the bars and restaurants that will suffer. There’ll be a downturn in all business. People will go out less, travel less, shop less. They’ll buy fewer clothes, shoes. They’ll buy less of everything in Hancock County. They’ll spend their money in other counties or states where they’re still welcome.
Antismoking zealots seem to think that life will carry on as normal, only “smoke-free”, as everyone gets used to the change. But it won’t, because they won’t.
I seem to remember that during the US Prohibition era, Canada and Mexico and Cuba did very well from American tourists flocking to their bars and night-clubs. And 100 years on, Americans are far more mobile than they were back then. For the more that smoking is prohibited in the USA, the greater the incentive for adjoining countries to provide a haven for smokers. There’ll be a lot of money in it. There probably already is.
The same will apply inside the USA, because of the piecemeal nature of smoking bans. There’ll be smoke-free states, and smoker-friendly states. And smoke-free counties, and smoker-friendly counties. And the more smoke-free some states become, the greater the incentive there’ll be for other states to remain smoker-friendly, because their economies will boom.
And the longer it goes on, the more likely smokers in smoke-free states and counties will be to up sticks and move to a smoker-friendly state or county. And the more likely antismokers will do the opposite. And the more smokers there are in smoker-friendly states and counties, the more they’ll make darn sure that their Boards of Health don’t get taken over by antismokers. The USA will become a checkerboad of smoker-friendly or smoke-free states and counties.
Eventually all the smokers will have moved to smoker-friendly states and counties. And all the antismokers will have moved to smoker-free states and counties. And in the easy-going smoker-friendly states, it’ll be much easier for new businesses to start and prosper. And in the smoker-free ones, it’ll be much harder, due to their restrictive regulations.
And as the smoker-friendly states and counties prospered, the smoker-free states and counties would decline. Businesses would move out. House prices would fall. Unemployment would rise. So would crime.
Smokers are the canary in the mine. If they don’t prosper, nothing prospers.

[FormalGold1]

In my social circle there are 4 couples that frequent Moutaineer in Hancock county. All have at least one smoker. We often stay overnight for the weekend at the Mountaineer Hotel. We bet horses, play blackjack, craps, roulette and slots. We buy tickets for the entertainment acts. All our meals are in Mountaineer restaurants. We are not going back to Hancock County if they fail to amend this draconian smoke ban. We will be heading to Pennsylvania for the Rivers Casino and Resort where smoking is allowed.
I used to bring my children and grandchildren to Mountaineer to watch the horse races. We would sit on the picnic tables on the paved track apron. I would smoke cigarettes and have a few beers. We had a great time. Under this smoke ban, there will be no smoking outside on the track apron. When they ask why they can’t go see the horses, my response will be that our family is no longer welcome at Mountaineer.

[tucker6]

I used to bring my children and grandchildren to Mountaineer to watch the horse races. We would sit on the picnic tables on the paved track apron. I would smoke cigarettes and have a few beers. We had a great time. Under this smoke ban, there will be no smoking outside on the track apron. When they ask why they can’t go see the horses, my response will be that I'm too selfish to quit smoking to be with my children and grandchildren.
fyp

[FormalGold1]

I have to admit that as former smoker, I have become some what of a fanatic on smoking. Having your mother die from cancer and getting yourself tends to make you fanatic. A former customer of mine who is a retired Urologist said in no uncertain terms that my bladder cancer was caused by my smoking even though I quit over 30 years ago. He said to me as friend "quitting smoking reduces your chances of getting cancer, but it does take them to zero". With what we know today about smoking and second hand smoke, why would you want to risk your own health and the health of those around you, just to have a cigarette or a cigar?

I'm sorry to hear about cancer in you family. I can understand your sensitivity.

Your Urologist customer sounds like many doctors. Do not question them, they know everything. He could never prove that your smoking from 30 years ago caused bladder cancer. Medically or in a court of law. Cancer is multifactorial. Genetics, environment,diet, etc. More non-smoking women die of lung cancer than all breast cancer. If everyone quit smoking, there will still be cancer in our society.

I enjoy cigarettes and cigars. As others enjoy chocolate, steaks, gambling, reality shows, books, etc. It's a pleasurable part of my life. I do not suffer from a immortality delusion.

[FormalGold1]

How many children and grandchildren have you raised, Tucker ? Thought so.

[Nets]

That is a ridiculous argument. The two things are not remotely the same.
People die from secondhand smoke all the time, at worst, and have to suffer through the smell both in person and on their clothes. Smoking indoors should be banned inmost public places, with some exceptions. Outside at a track, I see no problem.

E ciggy's? No way they should be banned anywhere.
All those stat you cite in desperation for your habit.....two things - do you bring your own ashtray and dispose of your waste or do you expect someone else to clean up after you?

I speak as an ex-smoker, who never smoked where others objected. Lighting one in a room affects everyone and the room itself over time. Do you pay to have the furniture and drapes cleaned to get rid of the terrible smell you put on them? OR the rugs?

You get it Tom. Smoking bans I understand. E-cig bans are just the anti smoking mafia going overboard because they think they can.

[FormalGold1]

That is a ridiculous argument. The two things are not remotely the same.
People die from secondhand smoke all the time, at worst, and have to suffer through the smell both in person and on their clothes. Smoking indoors should be banned inmost public places, with some exceptions. Outside at a track, I see no problem.

E ciggy's? No way they should be banned anywhere.
All those stat you cite in desperation for your habit.....two things - do you bring your own ashtray and dispose of your waste or do you expect someone else to clean up after you?

I speak as an ex-smoker, who never smoked where others objected. Lighting one in a room affects everyone and the room itself over time. Do you pay to have the furniture and drapes cleaned to get rid of the terrible smell you put on them? OR the rugs?

Facts and statistics have no meaning ? Disregard of scientific scrutiny is acceptable ?
Two things... did YOU bring your own ashtray as a smoker ? Who cleaned
up after you, Tom ? That is a ridiculous argument.

Japan has one of the highest smoking rates in the world. What country has the top longevity in the world ? Japan.

List by the World Health Organization (2012)[edit]
Overall
rank [5] Country Overall life
expectancy Male life
expectancy Male
rank Female life
expectancy Female
rank
1 Japan 84.6 85 1 87.3 2
2 Andorra 84.2 80.8 8 87.6 1
3 Singapore 84 82 2 87 3
4 Hong Kong 83.8 82 2 85.6 5
5 San Marino 83.5 82 2 85 11
6 Iceland 83.3 81.4 6 85.2 9

[tucker6]

Facts and statistics have no meaning ? Disregard of scientific scrutiny is acceptable ?
Two things... did YOU bring your own ashtray as a smoker ? Who cleaned
up after you, Tom ? That is a ridiculous argument.

Japan has one of the highest smoking rates in the world. What country has the top longevity in the world ? Japan.

List by the World Health Organization (2012)[edit]
Overall
rank [5] Country Overall life
expectancy Male life
expectancy Male
rank Female life
expectancy Female
rank
1 Japan 84.6 85 1 87.3 2
2 Andorra 84.2 80.8 8 87.6 1
3 Singapore 84 82 2 87 3
4 Hong Kong 83.8 82 2 85.6 5
5 San Marino 83.5 82 2 85 11
6 Iceland 83.3 81.4 6 85.2 9
I'm glad they are ridding the public domain of cigarette smoking, if only to see some whine so much about it.

[Stillriledup]

How many children and grandchildren have you raised, Tucker ? Thought so.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You sound like a quality person, passionate family man who has people in your life who love you a lot.

They probably love you enough to want you to be around for a long time. Very few smoke into old age and die of natural causes, it happens, but its certainly not something you can count on.

You can be a father/husband/grandfather/friend/brother or you can be a statistic.

Pick the former, its a lot better.

[FormalGold1]

I'm glad they are ridding the public domain of cigarette smoking, if only to see some whine so much about it.

You should get some help for your Schadenfreude fetish. You derive malicious enjoyment from the suffering of smokers? How vindictive and small-minded. The Hancock County Board of Health at Mountaineer would love to have you.

[Tom]

Facts and statistics have no meaning ? Disregard of scientific scrutiny is acceptable ?
Two things... did YOU bring your own ashtray as a smoker ? Who cleaned
up after you, Tom ? That is a ridiculous argument.

I had the sense to quit.
I had the sense to stop making other people smell the lousy stink I was spewing into THEIR environment.
I had the sense to stop trying to make up excuses and lies to justify a vile, dangerous and deadly habit.

There is no scientific evidence or scrutiny that says smoking cigarettes is anything but stupid and deadly.

You need to grow up.

[TJDave]

You derive malicious enjoyment from the suffering of smokers?

Smokers do not disappoint. Every bit of their suffering is deserved. Which makes the schadenfreude all the more schadenfreude.

[FormalGold1]

Wake up and smell the coffee. You sound like a quality person, passionate family man who has people in your life who love you a lot.

They probably love you enough to want you to be around for a long time. Very few smoke into old age and die of natural causes, it happens, but its certainly not something you can count on.

You can be a father/husband/grandfather/friend/brother or you can be a statistic.

Pick the former, its a lot better.

Thank you for the gracious thoughts. I am already into old age. If over 65 counts. I will probably die from a ‘old age disease’. Such as a heart attack, cancer, Alzheimers, etc. When a smoker dies at ANY age it is tabulated as a death from tobacco. Such as Kurt Vonnegut at aged 84 :

“Here's the news: I am going to sue the Brown & Williamson Tobacco Company, manufacturers of Pall Mall cigarettes, for a billion bucks! Starting when I was only twelve years old, I have never chain-smoked anything but unfiltered Pall Malls. And for many years now, right on the package, Brown & Williamson have promised to kill me.*
But I am eighty-two. Thanks a lot, you dirty rats. The last thing I ever wanted was to be alive when the three most powerful people on the whole planet would be named Bush, Dick and Colon.”

[Actor]

Smokers do not disappoint. Every bit of their suffering is deserved.Remember the tobacco exec who said "If they've got lips we want them"?

Most smokers start as children. If you can convince a child to have sex with you then you've committed a crime. But if you can convince a child to consume a poison that is guaranteed to eventually kill them then that's business.

[Tom]

Remember the tobacco exec who said "If they've got lips we want them"?

Most smokers start as children. If you can convince a child to have sex with you then you've committed a crime. But if you can convince a child to consume a poison that is guaranteed to eventually kill them then that's business.

I thought that was Bill Clinton???

[Actor]

Remember the tobacco exec who said "If they've got lips we want them"?I thought that was Bill Clinton???It was the R.J. Reynolds Company!

[Stillriledup]

Remember the tobacco exec who said "If they've got lips we want them"?

Most smokers start as children. If you can convince a child to have sex with you then you've committed a crime. But if you can convince a child to consume a poison that is guaranteed to eventually kill them then that's business.

The difference between the underage sex and the underage smoking?

The government can tax the smoking and get their cut....so, that's why its ok.

[Actor]

Our profile taken locally shows this brand [Newport] being purchased by black people [all ages] young adults (usually college age), but the base of our business is the high school student. - August 30, 1978 Lorilard Tobacco Co.
We strongly oppose warning labels on cigarette packs. Warning labels may improperly imply that it has been scientifically established that smoking causes disease. - R J Reynolds, 1981
They got lips? We want them. - R J Reynolds response when asked if they were targeting young people
It is important to know as much as possible about teenage smoking patterns and attitudes. Today's teenager is tomorrow's potential customer. - March 31, 1975 market research report on young smokers entitled Young smokers prevalence, trends, implications, and related demographic trends. written by Philip Morris researcher Myron E. Johnson.
We don't smoke that shit. We just sell it. We reserve the right to smoke for the young, the poor, the black and the stupid. - R J Reynolds executive, June 1992
Cherry Skoal is for somebody who likes the taste of candy, if you know what i'm saying. - U.S. Tobacco
To ensure increased and longer term growth for Camel Filter, the brand must increase it's share penetration among the 14-24 age market. . . which represent tomorrow's cigarette business. - R J Reynolds, 1975
If you are really and truly not going to sell to children, you are going to be out of business in 30 years. - Bennet Leslow, CEO Brook Group LTD
KOOL has shown little or no growth in share of users in the 26+ age group. Growth is from 16-25 year olds ... at the present rate, a smoker in the 16-25 year age group will soon be three times as important to KOOL as a prospect in any other broad age category. - February 21, 1973 Brown & Williamson marketing memo
:bang:

[FormalGold1]

The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Tobacco Control Act) became law on June 22, 2009. It gives the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) the authority to regulate the manufacture, distribution, and marketing of tobacco products to protect public health.

Go whine to the F.D.A. It's a legal product under their approval. Unlike those vitamins you are buying at GNC.

[Actor]

The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Tobacco Control Act) became law on June 22, 2009. It gives the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) the authority to regulate the manufacture, distribution, and marketing of tobacco products to protect public health.Good to know! :ThmbUp:

[tucker6]

You should get some help for your Schadenfreude fetish. You derive malicious enjoyment from the suffering of smokers? How vindictive and small-minded. The Hancock County Board of Health at Mountaineer would love to have you.
or maybe it is because my wife died of lung cancer last year at age 60. Can't wait for your smartass reply to that.

[FormalGold1]

or maybe it is because my wife died of lung cancer last year at age 60. Can't wait for your smartass reply to that.

I am sorry to hear of your wife’s death. I can understand your anguish now.

I wish they would devote more resources toward the eradication of lung cancer. The 1998 Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement provided 205 billion dollars for 46 States. Theses state governments used this money for their General Fund. They blew right through it.

According to the Washington, D.C.-based Lung Cancer Alliance, for every person who dies of breast cancer, $26,000 is spent on research funds, yet less than $1,500 is allocated for those who die of*lung cancer*.

Lung cancer is the top*cancer killer of women, and some medical experts say that they are seeing more patients in their 20s and 30s, many of them nonsmokers. But because lung cancer carries the stigma of smoking, experts say it is often overlooked in non-smoking patients — and doesn’t get the kind of funding or support given to breast cancer and other big killers.

“One of the big problems is there is such a big association in the public’s mind between smoking and lung cancer,” said Dr. Lecia Sequist, a medical oncologist at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.
“No one deserves to get lung cancer,” Sequist added. “But we are seeing a lot of patients who never smoked or smoked years ago or only in small amounts. We just don’t know why.”


The possibility that HPV (human papilloma virus)
may play a role in the development of lung cancer was first suggested in 1979. Several studies since that time have found evidence of HPV DNA in lung cancers, but this varies significantly depending on geography. In the United States, HPV DNA is found in about 20% to 25% of lung cancers. The most common strains found are HPV 16 and HPV 18, strains that are commonly found with cervical cancer as well.

Another approach is to educate the general public about the many factors that can raise the risk for lung cancer. Researchers have made a lot of progress over the past decade in understanding what causes lung cancer in non-smokers.
Radon gas.*The leading cause of lung cancer in non-smokers is exposure to radon gas, according to the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). It accounts for about 20,000 deaths from lung cancer each year. Radon occurs naturally outdoors in harmless amounts, but sometimes becomes concentrated in homes built on soil with natural uranium deposits. Studies have found that the risk of lung cancer is higher in those who have lived for many years in a radon-contaminated house. Because radon gas can’t be seen or smelled, the only way to know whether it’s a problem in your home is to test for it.*A Citizen’s Guide to Radon, produced by the EPA, explains how to test your home for radon easily and inexpensively, as well as what to do if your levels are too high.
Cancer-causing agents at work.*For some people, the*workplace*is a source of exposure to carcinogens like asbestos and diesel exhaust. Work-related exposure to such cancer-causing materials has decreased in recent years, as the government and industry have taken steps to help protect workers. But the dangers are still present, and if you work around these agents, you should be careful to limit your exposure whenever possible.
Air pollution.*While it’s long been known that both indoor and outdoor air pollution contribute to lung cancer, a study published in the*American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine*measured the fine particulate matter that contributes to lung cancer deaths in non-smokers. Using data from a large American Cancer Society study, the researchers concluded that even tiny amounts of increased carcinogens in air pollution significantly increased the risk.
Gene mutations.*Researchers are learning more and more about what causes cells to become cancerous, and how lung cancer cells differ between non-smokers and smokers. For example, an article published in*Clinical Cancer Research*explains that a particular kind of gene mutation is much more common in lung cancer in non-smokers than smokers. This mutation activates a gene that normally helps cells grow and divide. The mutation causes the gene to be turned on constantly, so the lung cancer cells grow faster. Knowing what causes the cell changes has helped researchers develop*targeted therapies, drugs that specifically target these mutations.

[fast4522]

or maybe it is because my wife died of lung cancer last year at age 60. Can't wait for your smartass reply to that.

I am sorry for your loss Tucker.

[ReplayRandall]

or maybe it is because my wife died of lung cancer last year at age 60. Can't wait for your smartass reply to that.

I too am sorry for your loss, the pain of mourning and grief you're living through. Please try and seek some counseling services if you can muster the courage. I put it off for too long and cost myself some years of unhappiness I wish I could've changed. My first wife died in 1985 of brain cancer at the age of 29. God's speed to you Tucker......

[FormalGold1]

Concerning the incompetent buffoon, CDC Director Thomas Frieden

From the National Review:

With his face plastered for weeks on every TV set in America, CDC director Tom*Frieden*is suffering from an advanced case of media overexposure. While meant to reassure, his clinical demeanor and calculated speech patterns as he explains the U.S. Ebola outbreak often come across as patronizing — even smug.

No doubt that smugness factored heavily in the Obama administration’s Friday decision to fire Frieden as the face of the federal Ebola response. Replacing him is “Ebola czar” Ron Klain, a Democratic hack with decades of experience in the political shark tank. President Obama expects Klain to alleviate the public’s fear without talking down to people — a skill that seemed to elude his predecessor.

Frieden’s*style should have come as no surprise to the White House. As undisputed captain of former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg’s nanny state, Frieden made his political career by lecturing, pressuring, and outright coercing people into making healthy “choices.” From tobacco to trans fats to table salt, the ex–New York City health commissioner took a “papa knows best” approach to public health, confidently exercising control over the most basic aspects of millions of peoples’ lives.

Not content with banning smoking virtually everywhere, Frieden spearheaded a massive cigarette-tax spike in 2002,*raising**the city’s rate from eight cents per pack to $1.50 and creating the most vibrant black market for tobacco products in the nation. He even suggested that tobacco companies be nationalized, with the feds distributing cigarettes to proven addicts and banning them for everyone else.

Freiden continued his anti-tobacco crusade as CDC head, this time targeting e-cigarettes, nicotine vaporizers free of unhealthy and cancer-causing chemicals. While lacking any medical evidence, the doctor’s*position**on this new technology is just as uncompromising: E-cigs will “reglamorize cigarettes” and inevitably lead struggling smokers to return to the cancer sticks, thus causing “more harm than good.”

Frieden’s patronizing attitude during the Ebola crisis comes as little surprise. Since 2002 the doctor has made a career out of condescension, moving from one excessive regulation to another in his attempt to equate private choices with public health.

Now that Frieden has some spare time, I wonder if he can explain to Mountaineer management and (soon to be laid-off employees) that this total smoking ban is in their best interest ? Without talking down to them ?

[tucker6]

I appreciate the sincere well wishes. :ThmbUp:

I'm okay. The drumbeat of life goes on. You either choose to live in the past or transition to a future without the loved one. Can't do both. I chose to move on. She gave up smoking 23 years before she developed cancer, but it was positively due to smoking according to the docs, as that particular cancer is a smoking cancer. Her family routinely lives into the 90's, including her mother. So I consider smoking as having taken her 30 years early. So think of that FormalGold when you rail against WV. Maybe it is Gods way of handing you a choice to change your life and live longer for your family. Take it if you can. You can't repair past damage, but you can prevent future lung damage, and that may buy you extra years.

[FormalGold1]

There is no official database of jockey injuries and fatalities, but according to a study published in the The Orthopedic Journal of Sports Medicine in 2013, a total of 152 jockeys died as a result of both flat and jump racing or training incidents in the U.S. between 1940 and 2012.
Even more jockeys are permanently crippled while racing

Jockeys understand the risks and are willing to race after serious injuries. Should we ban this dangerous activity ? It’s a bad example for the childreeeen. Let’s ban it and shut down the horse racing industry ? Of course not. The jockeys have the freedom to choose.

Why do we avoid risks in life ? So we can make it to death safely ?

We know the dangers of automobile accidents and yet we put our children in the back seat. Life is full of risks. We should have the freedom to choose.

Let’s ban all contact sports due to concussions. Or should athletes have the freedom to choose ?

Can I smoke a cigarette at a racetrack ? Not at Mountaineer after July 1st. No freedom to choose. The health ‘experts’ will dictate how to live our lives.