Winter racing in NY discussed

[thespaah]

This one I found on Bloodhorse.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/86726/nyra-franchise-winter-racing-discussed?source=rss

[DeltaLover]

This one I found on Bloodhorse.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/86726/nyra-franchise-winter-racing-discussed?source=rss



"Aqueduct in the winter is as vital as Saratoga in the summer," Violette said.


Why is this statement true?


"The end of winter racing would ruin the breeding industry in the state," Violette said. "The sport as we know it wouldn't survive.


What is wrong about ruining the breeding industry in the state?

Why a decrease in the state breeding will cause the game to not survice?

I really do not understand this statements..

As a bettor and fan of the game, I have very low interest on low quality state breds filling weak cards while competing for extremely high purses.

In my opinion, winter racing in NYC, is only good for the horsemen who seem to be milking the purses , providing very low quality racing with very limited betting interest.

[PhantomOnTour]

Quite a few very good NY bred runners have won big races in open company over the last few years.

What's wrong with ruining the NY breeding industry, you ask?
Really?...ask that to the breeders and trainers and all the folks who make a living at it in NY.

[DeltaLover]

Quite a few very good NY bred runners have won big races in open company over the last few years.

What's wrong with ruining the NY breeding industry, you ask?
Really?...ask that to the breeders and trainers and all the folks who make a living at it in NY.

Yes, they are making a living, but this does not mean that horse racing rally needs them. In contrary, I think they are doing more harm than good and are even more spoiled by the increased purses. During the winter it has become regural to have low quality, five horse state bred fields competing for over 50K. Trainers and connections have become extremmely picky on their spot selections, usually converting a race to a preditermined event. Personally, I will not miss NYC winter racing a bit (given the number of available alternatives) and more than this, I will be more than happy to see some of the two percenter connection to go away...

[castaway01]

Yes, they are making a living, but this does not mean that horse racing rally needs them. In contrary, I think they are doing more harm than good and are even more spoiled by the increased purses. During the winter it has become regural to have low quality, five horse state bred fields competing for over 50K. Trainers and connections have become extremmely picky on their spot selections, usually converting a race to a preditermined event. Personally, I will not miss NYC winter racing a bit (given the number of available alternatives) and more than this, I will be more than happy to see some of the two percenter connection to go away...

Well, while the winter races may have larger purses than they "deserve", right now there aren't enough horses to have large fields in most races. Considering the horse population is low NOW, how could destroying the breeding industry and further depleting horse supply possibly improve race quality?

[Robert Goren]

I love betting on the Aqu inner. It beats the hell out trying to bet the Churchill Downs of the South, Gulfstream Park.

[thaskalos]

From a betting perspective...the Aqueduct winter meet might be the worst in the country, IMO.

[DeltaLover]

Well, while the winter races may have larger purses than they "deserve", right now there aren't enough horses to have large fields in most races. Considering the horse population is low NOW, how could destroying the breeding industry and further depleting horse supply possibly improve race quality?

It will eliminate these races, shifting both owner and betting capitcal to better circuits.. Breeding a lot of mediocre horses in not what racing is all about... There is a very large number of stalliions who simply do not have anything to give to the sport, anybody knows this but very few have the courage to admit it. Low quality runners, less accomplished horsemen and middle income owners is not what racing needs right now....

[BlueShoe]

I love betting on the Aqu inner. It beats the hell out trying to bet the Churchill Downs of the South, Gulfstream Park.
There are several alternatives to both. Three of them are Fairgrounds, Tampa Bay, and Oaklawn.

[andtheyreoff]

It will eliminate these races, shifting both owner and betting capitcal to better circuits.. Breeding a lot of mediocre horses in not what racing is all about... There is a very large number of stalliions who simply do not have anything to give to the sport, anybody knows this but very few have the courage to admit it. Low quality runners, less accomplished horsemen and middle income owners is not what racing needs right now....

Have you noticed how dramatic the drop in foal crop size has been? In 2004, the number of horses foaled in the U.S. was 34,800. Last year? 21,275. That's a 39% decline.

The LAST thing racing needs is for a state's breeding industry- and a major racing state's at that- to be damaged. That would further lower the crops and would send racing in a tailspin.

[DeltaLover]

Have you noticed how dramatic the drop in foal crop size has been? In 2004, the number of horses foaled in the U.S. was 34,800. Last year? 21,275. That's a 39% decline.

The LAST thing racing needs is for a state's breeding industry- and a major racing state's at that- to be damaged. That would further lower the crops and would send racing in a tailspin.


It is a myth that horse racing needs a large number of foals... Back in 1917 the total number of registered foals was 1,680 producing MAN O WAR, while when Bold Ruler was born in 1954 the total was 9,064..

Here you can see a complete list:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook/foalcrop-nabd.html

Also read here about how strong was 1954 with the 9K foals:

http://www.drf.com/news/history-challenge-foal-crop-1954-had-talent-spare

[thaskalos]

Well...when the starts-per-horse also decline along with the number of foals...then a problem begins to present itself.

[reckless]

I always wanted NYRA to shut down racing from December thru February.

I felt the time off would help the fans restock their bankroll; refresh fans minds (and spirits) and also avoid the cold and inclement weather during the winter.

And, of course, I thought the time off would aid the racehorses with their own R 'n R.

[alydar]

It is a myth that horse racing needs a large number of foals... Back in 1917 the total number of registered foals was 1,680 producing MAN O WAR, while when Bold Ruler was born in 1954 the total was 9,064..

Here you can see a complete list:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook/foalcrop-nabd.html

Also read here about how strong was 1954 with the 9K foals:

http://www.drf.com/news/history-challenge-foal-crop-1954-had-talent-spare

How ridiculous this is. Quoting numbers from 50 and almost 100 years ago as if they are comparable to now in any way. As has been pointed out by many, field sizes have been shrinking, and you propose to eliminate incentives for a significant source of horses.

The fact is that we are all dependent on each other. There would never be a healthy and successful racing industry without owners, racetracks and the wagering public. All are key contributors to a healthy industry. Advocating against the success of any of these groups is counterproductive. I have seen posts from many that just do not seem to get that fact. All they seem to see is what they think is in their interest. That goes for all of the parties mentioned above.

[therussmeister]

I always wanted NYRA to shut down racing from December thru February.

I felt the time off would help the fans restock their bankroll; refresh fans minds (and spirits) and also avoid the cold and inclement weather during the winter.

And, of course, I thought the time off would aid the racehorses with their own R 'n R.
In this simulcast era, I doubt that lack of racing on the local circuit is an excuse for most fans to stop betting. Whilst there is undoubtably bettors that only play live on track, I believe they are mostly of the $2 variety, and don't feel obligated to attend during cold or inclement weather.

As for the horses, I see little indication that many of them are over-raced, and, if anything, a break in the schedule may prevent horses from getting a rest when they need it if a break in the schedule is one or two months away.

[EMD4ME]

I may hate going to Aqu because of the traffic but I absolutely love the inner track season. Yes, it's normally chalky but I have no problem playing parlays and pounding out ten dollar pick 4/pick 5's. It has fluctuations in bias and I love the limitations in distance (no 6 1/2 or 7F races) and no turf racing. It's a trip handicapper's dream.

To each his own. Do I get sick of 3/5 5 races in a row, yes of course, if I'm not super hot on the chalks but overall it generally provides steady logical racing which keeps the bankroll moving.

[Stillriledup]

I know foal crop declines are important, BUT, they wouldn't be important IF:

1) Racing had a sliding takeout scale, the smaller the field, the lower the takeout. You can't have a 25% Tri takeout on a 12 horse field and a 6 horse field, you have to adjust in order to get more betting

2) The races are too predictable. In a 6 horse field, for example, there are 120 possible outcomes in a trifecta. That's plenty. But, when you card races where all 120 combinations don't have a somewhat equal chance, you have maybe 10 out of the 120 that have a much better shot than the other 110, you have a big problem, especially with a 25% rake.

The reason for #2 is that race secretaries card races for owners and trainers, they don't card races for bettors.

[taxicab]

I love betting on the Aqu inner. It beats the hell out trying to bet the Churchill Downs of the South, Gulfstream Park.
Agree.
I like playing the P-6 during the winter months at Aqu.
It doesn't take a huge ticket to have a clean look at the pool.

[Tom]

so how about this for Belmont -

Mani track, convert to turf.
Main turf, convert to dirt.
Inner turf convert to poly.
Off the grass goes to to poly, winter on poly.
Dirt will have two-turn routes.

[alydar]

I have no problem with the inner track meet. It is very different to the other meets, but so be it. It is not as glamorous as Saratoga or the Fall Belmont meet but you can't have it all. If you don't like it then don't play it, plenty still do, just look at the handle numbers. In January, it is cold and windy and lots of money still flows through the windows, because the racing is still better than most venues in the country at that time, not all of course, but most.

[1st time lasix]

From a betting perspective...the Aqueduct winter meet might be the worst in the country, IMO. ***************** Five years ago I made my last winter wager in NY and my last wager at Calder. I guess Calder is effectively gone....I think the inner at A should be too. It is a spectator sport in the dead of winter for Pete's sake. That is what the season's in Tampa, Gulfstream, Fairgrounds, Oaklawn and Southern Cal racing is all about. I also agree that running Gulfstream in the opressive South Florida summer heat is nuts.

[GaryG]

For a long time we have bred too many cheap horses with distance limitations to run 4 1/2 furlongs at too many cheap tracks. The attrition is taking place with many tracks closing and the foal crop is smaller. There is a much wider class difference between our horses and the euros than in years past. Winter racing is Santa Anita, Fair Grounds, Florida and Oaklawn. The racinos were thought to be the sport's salvation, but they are the devil in disguise and I can't see a solution. Enjoy it while it lasts, even winter racing in NY.

[Moto Pete]

so how about this for Belmont -

Mani track, convert to turf.
Main turf, convert to dirt.
Inner turf convert to poly.
Off the grass goes to to poly, winter on poly.
Dirt will have two-turn routes.

I agree. It would be very expensive but would be worth it. The increase in handle when turf goes to poly over turf to dirt would cover the costs right there. I play a lot of turf races but never bet a dime when it comes off. Creating 2 turn routes is another big plus.

[Redboard]

so how about this for Belmont -

Mani track, convert to turf.
Main turf, convert to dirt.
Inner turf convert to poly.
Off the grass goes to to poly, winter on poly.
Dirt will have two-turn routes.
I agree too, but what happens to the Belmont Stakes? Two and a half turns?