How good is Kevin Love?

[lansdale]

Good and I think, objective piece on Love by Bill Simmons in the wake of the Cavs trade. The comparison to the Barkley trade to PHX is an interesting, and, to me, valid parallel, although in this case, Love will be joining a player of historic magnitude - something he may come to share. Next year's Finals? Spurs vs. Cavs.

http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/


An excerpt:

'Other than that, it’s easier to compare Love and Barkley than I thought. Like Love, the 6-foot-4 Barkley was a spectacular scorer-rebounder, a surprisingly good passer, a favorite of the advanced-metrics dudes, and a superduperentertaining player who always came off more impressively when you watched him in person.

• Like Love, Barkley battled weight issues early in his career that led to him dropping lower in the draft than he should have gone.

• Like Love, Barkley was a below-average defensive player who ideally needed to be flanked by a shot-blocker, although he protected the rim much better than Love does.

• Like Love, Barkley’s greatness bubbled to the surface at the Olympics when he was surrounded by better players.

• Like Love, you always wished Barkley would shoot fewer 3s and crash the boards a little bit more. (Although Love is a much better 3-point shooter than Barkley was.)

• Like Love, Barkley spent the first chunk of his career saddled by terrible luck (Andrew Toney’s feet, Roy Hinson’s knees, Johnny Dawkins’s everything) and atrocious management (the Sixers stupidly traded Moses Malone for Jeff Ruland and Cliff Robinson, and they inexplicably traded the Brad Daugherty pick to Cleveland for Hinson).

• Like Love, Barkley possessed one unique skill that belonged to him and only him. Love throws those incredible once-in-a-generation outlet passes that have Wes Unseld’s DNA dripping from them. Barkley could grab rebounds in traffic, take off full-court and finish the play like a runaway train — not even LeBron and Blake make opponents say to themselves, “F— this, I’m getting out of the way,” quite like Barkley did.

• And like Love, Barkley had evolved into a polarizing personality by the time that 1991-92 season ended. Here’s what Clifton Brown wrote for the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/18/sports/basketball-bright-day-for-suns-they-get-barkley.html) in his story about the Barkley trade. My notes are in parentheses.

“The 76ers acknowledged they were trading a superstar, but they are gambling that acquiring three quality players from Phoenix will make them a better team.”

(The 76ers went 115-295 over the next five seasons. To extend that gambling analogy, Philly was the guy on your Vegas trip who lost $500 an hour after everyone got there, disappeared in a huff, found the seediest club possible, woke up in his hotel room the next day with no wallet and no pants, then texted everyone later that day saying, “Heading home — it’s a long story.”)

“The 76ers finished 35-47 last season, the poorest record in Barkley’s eight years with the team.

“Barkley’s playing style did not mesh with the passing-game offense that will be implemented by the new 76ers coach, Doug Moe.”

(First of all, that’s an insane sentence. You have Charles Barkley on your team and you’re going to trade him because your coach is fired up about his new passing offense? Hey, here’s an idea: What about building your offense around one of the best five guys in basketball while he’s in his prime? And second, Moe lasted 56 games. He finished with a 19-37 record in Philly. Is anything funnier than sports?)

“Barkley’s outspokenness and behavior were a constant concern to the 76ers. Only hours before the trade, Barkley was acquitted in a Milwaukee court of disorderly conduct and battery charges … Such controversy has followed Barkley throughout this career. On various occasions, he has criticized 76ers management, criticized his teammates and clashed with Philadelphia reporters. During a game against the Nets in New Jersey two seasons ago, Barkley mistakenly spat upon a girl who was sitting near a fan who was heckling him.”

(Read all of those things again. What did he REALLY do? Those were the reasons that you traded one of the best 25 players ever for 35 cents on the dollar??? Oh crap, I forgot about Doug Moe’s passing offense.)

“Nevertheless, no one doubts what Barkley can do on the court. And many fans in Philadelphia were already questioning whether the 76ers had gotten enough in return for Barkley.”

(Those people were correct. And then some.)

And yes, Barkley was better than Love. But Barkley was just as undervalued in 1992 as Love is right now. You cannot trade for a superstar, in his prime, unless that guy has some baggage (Barkley) or he’s fleeing town in a year (Love). And by the way, Love had some baggage, too. Golden State didn’t just back off because of his defense. Like Barkley in 1992, Love doesn’t have the greatest reputation right now. Everyone respects him, everyone thinks he’s talented … but too much scuttlebutt piled up these past two years, fair or unfair, that Love was a selfish, me-first teammate in Minnesota. He doesn’t have a stellar reputation in NBA circles. It’s not a BAD reputation, but it’s not good, either.12 (http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/#fn-12)'

[ronsmac]

Good and I think, objective piece on Love by Bill Simmons in the wake of the Cavs trade. The comparison to the Barkley trade to PHX is an interesting, and, to me, valid parallel, although in this case, Love will be joining a player of historic magnitude - something he may come to share. Next year's Finals? Spurs vs. Cavs.

http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/


An excerpt:

'Other than that, it’s easier to compare Love and Barkley than I thought. Like Love, the 6-foot-4 Barkley was a spectacular scorer-rebounder, a surprisingly good passer, a favorite of the advanced-metrics dudes, and a superduperentertaining player who always came off more impressively when you watched him in person.

• Like Love, Barkley battled weight issues early in his career that led to him dropping lower in the draft than he should have gone.

• Like Love, Barkley was a below-average defensive player who ideally needed to be flanked by a shot-blocker, although he protected the rim much better than Love does.

• Like Love, Barkley’s greatness bubbled to the surface at the Olympics when he was surrounded by better players.

• Like Love, you always wished Barkley would shoot fewer 3s and crash the boards a little bit more. (Although Love is a much better 3-point shooter than Barkley was.)

• Like Love, Barkley spent the first chunk of his career saddled by terrible luck (Andrew Toney’s feet, Roy Hinson’s knees, Johnny Dawkins’s everything) and atrocious management (the Sixers stupidly traded Moses Malone for Jeff Ruland and Cliff Robinson, and they inexplicably traded the Brad Daugherty pick to Cleveland for Hinson).

• Like Love, Barkley possessed one unique skill that belonged to him and only him. Love throws those incredible once-in-a-generation outlet passes that have Wes Unseld’s DNA dripping from them. Barkley could grab rebounds in traffic, take off full-court and finish the play like a runaway train — not even LeBron and Blake make opponents say to themselves, “F— this, I’m getting out of the way,” quite like Barkley did.

• And like Love, Barkley had evolved into a polarizing personality by the time that 1991-92 season ended. Here’s what Clifton Brown wrote for the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/18/sports/basketball-bright-day-for-suns-they-get-barkley.html) in his story about the Barkley trade. My notes are in parentheses.

“The 76ers acknowledged they were trading a superstar, but they are gambling that acquiring three quality players from Phoenix will make them a better team.”

(The 76ers went 115-295 over the next five seasons. To extend that gambling analogy, Philly was the guy on your Vegas trip who lost $500 an hour after everyone got there, disappeared in a huff, found the seediest club possible, woke up in his hotel room the next day with no wallet and no pants, then texted everyone later that day saying, “Heading home — it’s a long story.”)

“The 76ers finished 35-47 last season, the poorest record in Barkley’s eight years with the team.

“Barkley’s playing style did not mesh with the passing-game offense that will be implemented by the new 76ers coach, Doug Moe.”

(First of all, that’s an insane sentence. You have Charles Barkley on your team and you’re going to trade him because your coach is fired up about his new passing offense? Hey, here’s an idea: What about building your offense around one of the best five guys in basketball while he’s in his prime? And second, Moe lasted 56 games. He finished with a 19-37 record in Philly. Is anything funnier than sports?)

“Barkley’s outspokenness and behavior were a constant concern to the 76ers. Only hours before the trade, Barkley was acquitted in a Milwaukee court of disorderly conduct and battery charges … Such controversy has followed Barkley throughout this career. On various occasions, he has criticized 76ers management, criticized his teammates and clashed with Philadelphia reporters. During a game against the Nets in New Jersey two seasons ago, Barkley mistakenly spat upon a girl who was sitting near a fan who was heckling him.”

(Read all of those things again. What did he REALLY do? Those were the reasons that you traded one of the best 25 players ever for 35 cents on the dollar??? Oh crap, I forgot about Doug Moe’s passing offense.)

“Nevertheless, no one doubts what Barkley can do on the court. And many fans in Philadelphia were already questioning whether the 76ers had gotten enough in return for Barkley.”

(Those people were correct. And then some.)

And yes, Barkley was better than Love. But Barkley was just as undervalued in 1992 as Love is right now. You cannot trade for a superstar, in his prime, unless that guy has some baggage (Barkley) or he’s fleeing town in a year (Love). And by the way, Love had some baggage, too. Golden State didn’t just back off because of his defense. Like Barkley in 1992, Love doesn’t have the greatest reputation right now. Everyone respects him, everyone thinks he’s talented … but too much scuttlebutt piled up these past two years, fair or unfair, that Love was a selfish, me-first teammate in Minnesota. He doesn’t have a stellar reputation in NBA circles. It’s not a BAD reputation, but it’s not good, either.12 (http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/#fn-12)'Love is good. If one is using a scale of 1-10 and LeBron is 10 and Durant is 9, then Love is an 8.

[lansdale]

Love is good. If one is using a scale of 1-10 and LeBron is 10 and Durant is 9, then Love is an 8.

Generally agree, but think he's even somewhat better. Since I would make it LBJ 9.5, Durant 9.3 (leaving room for Jordan, etc. at 10) I would make Love 8.5 now, and probably higher by the end of the season. Defense is clearly a drawback. I think there's also a question of his ability to get his shot, especially in crunch time, when he finally gets into the post-season. We'll see.

[ronsmac]

Generally agree, but think he's even somewhat better. Since I would make it LBJ 9.5, Durant 9.3 (leaving room for Jordan, etc. at 10) I would make Love 8.5 now, and probably higher by the end of the season. Defense is clearly a drawback. I think there's also a question of his ability to get his shot, especially in crunch time, when he finally gets into the post-season. We'll see.I know I'm in the minority,but I feel LeBron is better than MJ all around thus the 10.

[cj]

Players I think are better than Kevin Love right now:

Lebron
KD
Westbrook
Aldridge
Noah
Paul
Melo
Harden
Curry
Davis
Rose (he looks like he is back to me)

I can think of some others that are at least close or as good, like Griffin, M Gasol, etc.

[ronsmac]

Players I think are better than Kevin Love right now:

Lebron
KD
Westbrook
Aldridge
Noah
Paul
Melo
Harden
Curry
Davis
Rose (he looks like he is back to me)

I can think of some others that are at least close or as good, like Griffin, M Gasol, etc.I'm not a fan of Melo or Paul. I think they're over rated, especially Melo. As much as he shoots he should avg 35 a game. Just my opinion. 2 yrs from now KD maybe no.1.

[cj]

I'm not a fan of Melo or Paul. I think they're over rated, especially Melo. As much as he shoots he should avg 35 a game. Just my opinion. 2 yrs from now KD maybe no.1.

I'm not a fan of those two either, but I think they are better than Love. Don't get me wrong, Love will be great playing with Lebron. It is a good fit. Lebron knew what he was doing going to Cleveland. I'm sure going home was a factor, but it was also about the roster. He always knew Love was coming.

[ronsmac]

I'm not a fan of those two either, but I think they are better than Love. Don't get me wrong, Love will be great playing with Lebron. It is a good fit. Lebron knew what he was doing going to Cleveland. I'm sure going home was a factor, but it was also about the roster. He always knew Love was coming.I'd be a little worried about KD coming home in a couple of yrs if I were you. I think the next 2 yrs are critical for okc.

[ronsmac]

I'm not a fan of those two either, but I think they are better than Love. Don't get me wrong, Love will be great playing with Lebron. It is a good fit. Lebron knew what he was doing going to Cleveland. I'm sure going home was a factor, but it was also about the roster. He always knew Love was coming.Speaking of Rose,I can't recall a guy having 2 surgeries and looking faster than he did before the injuries.

[Stillriledup]

Players I think are better than Kevin Love right now:

Lebron
KD
Westbrook
Aldridge
Noah
Paul
Melo
Harden
Curry
Davis
Rose (he looks like he is back to me)

I can think of some others that are at least close or as good, like Griffin, M Gasol, etc.

You have Rose and Noah ahead of Griffin?

Of course you do. :D

[cj]

You have Rose and Noah ahead of Griffin?

Of course you do. :D

Obviously different types of players, but Noah brings a lot to the team. I wouldn't argue if you want to put Griffin ahead of him. If Rose is back, and he looked it before the George injury, he is better...sorry.

[cj]

I'd be a little worried about KD coming home in a couple of yrs if I were you. I think the next 2 yrs are critical for okc.

If he leaves, he leaves, but I have no reason to think he will. Certainly not going to worry about it now.

[Stillriledup]

Obviously different types of players, but Noah brings a lot to the team. I wouldn't argue if you want to put Griffin ahead of him. If Rose is back, and he looked it before the George injury, he is better...sorry.

You gotta actually play to be better. Sorry, he's not better until he is.

BG top 3 talent in NBA according to MVP voters, Rose has a lot of work to do to get back to that level.

[cj]

You gotta actually play to be better. Sorry, he's not better until he is.

BG top 3 talent in NBA according to MVP voters, Rose has a lot of work to do to get back to that level.

MVP voters...you're funny.

[Stillriledup]

MVP voters...you're funny.

Voters don't matter unless they're voting KD ahead of Lebron. ;)

[cj]

Voters don't matter unless they're voting KD ahead of Lebron. ;)

Nice individual award for the guy that has the best season, nothing more.

[headhawg]

BG top 3 talent in NBA according to MVP votersDo a mock draft of the current NBA players. I assure you that Griffin wouldn't be drafted in the top three. Maybe by popularity, but let's assume a team actually wants to win a championship.

[Stillriledup]

Do a mock draft of the current NBA players. I assure you that Griffin wouldn't be drafted in the top three. Maybe by popularity, but let's assume a team actually wants to win a championship.

:D

Ok.

[headhawg]

:D

What don't you start posting things that you actually know about?

[Robert Fischer]

I really don't know Kevin Love all that well.

Statistically speaking, it seems that when he's healthy, he is a poor-man's Dirk Nowitzki.

He's also a good offensive rebounder.

There's a possibility that in his latest season he was able to influence the outcome of games a little bit more. That can be hard to tell from statistics alone.

[cj]

Do a mock draft of the current NBA players. I assure you that Griffin wouldn't be drafted in the top three. Maybe by popularity, but let's assume a team actually wants to win a championship.

This is what I was stating originally, same with Love. They would both be borderline top 10 in my opinion at best, probably just outside.

[lansdale]

I really don't know Kevin Love all that well.

Statistically speaking, it seems that when he's healthy, he is a poor-man's Dirk Nowitzki.

He's also a good offensive rebounder.

There's a possibility that in his latest season he was able to influence the outcome of games a little bit more. That can be hard to tell from statistics alone.

It's true that Love's game is similar in many ways to that of Nowitzki. They both can shoot the three, both can rebound, neither is a shot-blocker. But Love is a much better rebounder than Dirk has even been, and a slightly better passer, although the latter is a better on-ball defender. If you compare Nowitzki's early numbers with Love's, except for Love's injury years, they're nearly identical. But Dirk had the benefit of joining a team that was already good (Steve Nash, Michael Finley, etc.) and was further improved by his presence - during the '00s they averaged around 55 wins a season and always made the playoffs. So there wasn't the same kind of skepticism about his ability that there seems to be about Love's. I think there's a good chance he'll dispel that doubt in the next few years, and also that he'll win a few more titles than Dirk.

[Stillriledup]

:D

What don't you start posting things that you actually know about?

If i posted all i know, i'd have a lot more posts. ;)

[Canarsie]

Voters don't matter unless they're voting KD ahead of Lebron. ;)

Voters don't matter period its an award that every person who has won it states "I rather have a championship than a single achievement award".

In CJ's defense and since you like to go back to the past and retrieve things how many times did he mention the award along with Durant winning it in the same breath?. My hunch is much less than you think.

While your at it maybe you could also retrieve some info on the heated GS-paper clips rivalry that is so intense? I'm not that smart having a hard time actually finding out some serious stuff about it.

[magwell]

If i posted all i know, i'd have a lot more posts. ;)................:lol:

[Canarsie]

I'm not a fan of Melo or Paul. I think they're over rated, especially Melo. As much as he shoots he should avg 35 a game. Just my opinion. 2 yrs from now KD maybe no.1.


I have never been a fan of Melo always felt he was an underachiever for the amount of sheer talent he has. But the past season he has won me over quite a bit but still needs to show more. He played harder on the defensive end than I have ever seen you could even see the intensity in his eyes. This was on a team where he could have packed it in after twenty games others just didn't care. Yet he went after 50-50 balls, actually grabbed some boards in tight places, it was a very nice showing to me. I know it was his walk year but it had to be hard putting in close to max effort every night.

The one thing that still drives me crazy is when he's losing or a call goes against him and he smiles. The great ones just don't do that their competitiveness just won't allow it. It was less this season but still far too much in my opinion.

We'll never know now but I think on the right team he would have givem up many of his shots without resistance. It took a long time but he's finally grasping the team concept more than ever before.

I can't wait for the season to start to see how wrong or right I am on this one.

[Robert Fischer]

It's true that Love's game is similar in many ways to that of Nowitzki. They both can shoot the three, both can rebound, neither is a shot-blocker. But Love is a much better rebounder than Dirk has even been, and a slightly better passer, although the latter is a better on-ball defender. If you compare Nowitzki's early numbers with Love's, except for Love's injury years, they're nearly identical. But Dirk had the benefit of joining a team that was already good (Steve Nash, Michael Finley, etc.) and was further improved by his presence - during the '00s they averaged around 55 wins a season and always made the playoffs. So there wasn't the same kind of skepticism about his ability that there seems to be about Love's. I think there's a good chance he'll dispel that doubt in the next few years, and also that he'll win a few more titles than Dirk.

Good point about the quality of team that Nowitzki was fortunate to play with.

[Stillriledup]

................:lol:

I thought you'd get a kick out of that. :D

[Stillriledup]

Voters don't matter period its an award that every person who has won it states "I rather have a championship than a single achievement award".

In CJ's defense and since you like to go back to the past and retrieve things how many times did he mention the award along with Durant winning it in the same breath?. My hunch is much less than you think.

While your at it maybe you could also retrieve some info on the heated GS-paper clips rivalry that is so intense? I'm not that smart having a hard time actually finding out some serious stuff about it.

My point was that if Lebron had won again, CJ would have commented that KD deserved it or something along those lines as opposed to saying "it doesnt matter at all because its an award given out by voters"

The best player usually wins it and the 2nd best player usually finishes 2nd and the 3rd best player finishes 3rd. Its not an accident that Griffin was 3rd, statistically and visually as well as leadership and effort, he was deserving. Now, is he always going to be the 3rd best guy? Its not likely since his style of play is a bit of a bull in a china shop and he has missed time due to injury, its hard for big men to stay :"sound" so maybe he will "bounce" and not be as good this upcoming season. But, just for one season, he was deserving of 3rd place votes...whether that translates to him being 3rd best every year behind KD and Lebron remains to be seen.

[cj]

The best player usually wins it and the 2nd best player usually finishes 2nd and the 3rd best player finishes 3rd.

Complete hogwash.

[Stillriledup]

Complete hogwash.

How about some examples in the last 10 years where the voters got it wrong. If its hogwash, examples must be aplenty.

[cj]

Two from this year, Durant isn't the best player, and Griffin is nowhere near third best.

[Stillriledup]

Two from this year, Durant isn't the best player, and Griffin is nowhere near third best.

:D

Ok.