Signer issue..

[WP1981]

Hit a race yesterday for around $2k. I go back to Los Al to cash it today and they won't do it because I don't have my ss card. I haven't had it in years.

I have a W2, bank cards, insurance card and 2 picture ID's. I figured they would at least tax me at 30%, but they told me to come back during live racing.

Sigh.. To make matters worse (or better lol), I am very alive in the P4 at Toga with a 10-1 and 16-1 already down.

:bang:

[Stillriledup]

If you have a drivers license, they should let you sign. Its not like you're going to give a fake SS number and a real license, that would make no sense on your part and they should know that.

[WP1981]

I do have drivers license.. She says the ssa and IRS are coming down on them hard and hitting them with fines if the number is wrong.

Aren't we past this now? The damn SAMs could verify your identity just like the adw's and banks do.

[AndyC]

If you don't or can't produce a social security card the track should take what is called back-up withholding of 28%. The person you spoke with was either too lazy or did not know how to do the required paperwork.

[jk3521]

Oh, to have such a problem! :D

[Bennie]

In Jersey they would cash you as a "non-resident of the US" and just take a bigger cut for Uncle Sam. Other option is to find one of those 10% leeches to cash it for you

[RunForTheRoses]

I have had this problem the last year or so in NJ. NY, and DE. They are cracking down and apparently there are no exceptions. When I cashed an IRS ticket at a NJ OTB after the Kentucky Derby I felt like I was a criminal-definitely need to go to 100% njbets/TVG where you don't have this problem.
Just get an SS replacement card, hopefully you will get a lot of use out of it.

[Stillriledup]

I have had this problem the last year or so in NJ. NY, and DE. They are cracking down and apparently there are no exceptions. When I cashed an IRS ticket at a NJ OTB after the Kentucky Derby I felt like I was a criminal-definitely need to go to 100% njbets/TVG where you don't have this problem.
Just get an SS replacement card, hopefully you will get a lot of use out of it.

Criminals always make honest people feel like criminals.

Ever notice that? :D

[Longshot6977]

In Jersey they would cash you as a "non-resident of the US" and just take a bigger cut for Uncle Sam. Other option is to find one of those 10% leeches to cash it for you

Certain tellers at Freehold will do it for 10%, but you can ask them if they know a 5% guy. I hear that is the new going rate nowadays.
Do they really think people carry around their SS card nowadays? :bang:

[Mineshaft]

Certain tellers at Freehold will do it for 10%, but you can ask them if they know a 5% guy. I hear that is the new going rate nowadays.
Do they really think people carry around their SS card nowadays? :bang:




10% is the norm where im from

[WP1981]

That is what I asked her, she said she always carries it with her.

I think I lost mine by carrying it with me.

Confusing times on track, try cashing a check with your DL and SS card. They will tell you it is not an acceptable form of ID/verification.

Going down to Del mar on weds, hopefully they will hammer it.

[thaskalos]

Ask one of the tellers to hook you up with a trustworthy 10%er. The tellers usually provide that service for free...and get a small kickback from the signer.

[therussmeister]

Certain tellers at Freehold will do it for 10%, but you can ask them if they know a 5% guy. I hear that is the new going rate nowadays.
Do they really think people carry around their SS card nowadays? :bang:
I carry my SS card every time I go to the track, and never any other day.

[thaskalos]

I have never had a teller ask me for a SS# in my life.

My drivers licence has always been enough.

[Moto Pete]

In Jersey they would cash you as a "non-resident of the US" and just take a bigger cut for Uncle Sam. Other option is to find one of those 10% leeches to cash it for you

OK, for the record I'm not or ever have been one of the 10% so called leeches you refer to. But they are doing us a favor. Most of them are elderly and struggling. I'd rather give $ to them than get absolutely raped by the takeout and government.

[Moto Pete]

I have never had a teller ask me for a SS# in my life.

My drivers licence has always been enough.

Nope. The last few times they have asked me for it. I didn't have it the first time so now I carry my card with me in my wallet.

[Shemp Howard]

I was a 10%'er at Liberty Bell Park in the 1970's BC (before computers)

Had a clerk at the clubhouse window who didn't ask any questions for the numbers I gave him so long as I picked up his tab in the dining room when he entertained his girlfriends on his nights off.

The statute of limitations has expired, hasn;t it?

[WP1981]

I hate carrying live tickets like this. I get jittery with them and a little confused as to where I put them. At some point while calling my teller friend in AZ for advice I lost a Win/Place ticket for woodbine that paid $13.40 for the place.

I also had a $1200ish pick 3 at Del mar a few years back that I lost for 15 minutes and eventually found on the floor under my table.

I never lose losing tickets.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Shemp, I don;t think you have to worry.

I hit a $800 pick three at the Spa a few years ago, and didn't have my SS card with me. When I provided the number, however, the teller was able to call up and verify it via some sort of clearing mechanism - don't recall if he spoke with someone on the other end of the phone, or simply keyed in my number.

For good measure, he took my picture. Guess they're cracking down on the 10%'ers too....

[WP1981]

She did offer me an envelope: "Keep it in here, that isn't ink on the tickets and will rub off."

Thanks!

[thespaah]

Certain tellers at Freehold will do it for 10%, but you can ask them if they know a 5% guy. I hear that is the new going rate nowadays.
Do they really think people carry around their SS card nowadays? :bang:
The form the SS Admin sends when you gewt a replacement card, warns you not to carry your SS Card with you...
Jesus Christ...Whop told this moron that you had to have it to cash?
I would have told that teller "just get your highest supervisor on site here please. I'm not dealing with the uninformed."

[thespaah]

I hate carrying live tickets like this. I get jittery with them and a little confused as to where I put them. At some point while calling my teller friend in AZ for advice I lost a Win/Place ticket for woodbine that paid $13.40 for the place.

I also had a $1200ish pick 3 at Del mar a few years back that I lost for 15 minutes and eventually found on the floor under my table.

I never lose losing tickets.
You need some kind of folder to hold your tix. One that you can slip into a pocket and keep it concealed until you need it. Perhaps a credential holder that has clear plastic. It must be small enough to fit into your pocket.
Check places like Office Depot, etc
My friend's dad has something of this nature. He's been using it for years.

[traynor]

This is a very confusing thread. I understand the 10 percenters. They (supposedly) are people who have little or no (declared) income, and so are willing to aid and abet the avoidance of tax payment by the ticket purchaser on that income by declaring it to be their own. Huh. I must be reading this wrong. That would make it seem like tax evasion, as well as advocating that others do the same.

I don't really care much what anyone does. You can even do like the big boys do, and run it through your Canadian attorney. However, it seems there are some topics that should be discussed with a bit more discretion. It doesn't matter much if you are only cashing occasional tickets, or betting peanuts. If you are a serious bettor, it is strongly recommended that you consult an attorney, an accountant, or the IRS about such practices.

Bear in mind that "10 percenter" also refers to the IRS informants who collect bounties.

If you can't afford to pay the taxes on the income you generate from wagering, perhaps you are not doing as well as you like to believe. Or doing as well as you would like others to believe.

[JustRalph]

This is a very confusing thread. I understand the 10 percenters. They (supposedly) are people who have little or no (declared) income, and so are willing to aid and abet the avoidance of tax payment by the ticket purchaser on that income by declaring it to be their own. Huh. I must be reading this wrong. That would make it seem like tax evasion, as well as advocating that others do the same.

I don't really care much what anyone does. You can even do like the big boys do, and run it through your Canadian attorney. However, it seems there are some topics that should be discussed with a bit more discretion. It doesn't matter much if you are only cashing occasional tickets, or betting peanuts. If you are a serious bettor, it is strongly recommended that you consult an attorney, an accountant, or the IRS about such practices.

Bear in mind that "10 percenter" also refers to the IRS informants who collect bounties.

If you can't afford to pay the taxes on the income you generate from wagering, perhaps you are not doing as well as you like to believe. Or doing as well as you would like others to believe.

Traynor, ever been through an audit?

[thaskalos]

This is a very confusing thread. I understand the 10 percenters. They (supposedly) are people who have little or no (declared) income, and so are willing to aid and abet the avoidance of tax payment by the ticket purchaser on that income by declaring it to be their own. Huh. I must be reading this wrong. That would make it seem like tax evasion, as well as advocating that others do the same.

I don't really care much what anyone does. You can even do like the big boys do, and run it through your Canadian attorney. However, it seems there are some topics that should be discussed with a bit more discretion. It doesn't matter much if you are only cashing occasional tickets, or betting peanuts. If you are a serious bettor, it is strongly recommended that you consult an attorney, an accountant, or the IRS about such practices.

Bear in mind that "10 percenter" also refers to the IRS informants who collect bounties.

If you can't afford to pay the taxes on the income you generate from wagering, perhaps you are not doing as well as you like to believe. Or doing as well as you would like others to believe.

Is it illegal to advise someone to seek the services of a 10-percenter?

[WP1981]

I have never used one. I've had maybe 5-6 signers since 2002.

There was one older guy I would trust to do it (that I knew did it) but I never hit one when he was around.

Up until the past few years my income was shit and I was a student so I never really noticed a difference and always got money back either way.

I will get an office depot ticket holder..the problem is I can't decide if that is a jinx. I already stopped brining my own pen due to this forum. :D

[traynor]

Traynor, ever been through an audit?

Regularly. My business is wagering.

[Robert Goren]

What I don't get is how you can go for years without a SS card in your possession. You need one to get a job or open a bank accout or any one of many other things.

[traynor]

Is it illegal to advise someone to seek the services of a 10-percenter?

Obviously, it would be presumptous of me to pretend I am qualified to offer legal advice. I am not. I AM suggesting that if one derives income from an activity, then disguises that income by paying someone else to sign for it (as if it were their income), that might be considered problematic by the IRS.

One of the things that attracts the ire of the IRS (and rightly so) is "passing on the tribal wisdom"--essentially giving advice to others that would encourage them to violate tax regulations. The same caveat applies to other illegal activities--it is not seemly to recommend to others that they engage in those activities. Those recommendations can come back to bite one at a later date.

[bello]

Last year I hit a signer at Arapahoe and I was looking for a 10 percenter because they required a Social Security card and I did not have one. I am not from Denver and would have had to leave without cashing. The oldtimers I was asking looked at me like I was trying to scam them. Finally found some drunk guy who got it and cashed for me.

A couple of moths ago at the Arlington Park OTB I hit a signer. Same deal, I am not from Chicago. I went to the window and they took my license and trusted me on the SS number. Made life very easy.

And of course, just save enough losing tickets to offset the ones you need to sign for in the eveny your audited. You can claim losses up to your reported winnings.

[Robert Goren]

Last year I hit a signer at Arapahoe and I was looking for a 10 percenter because they required a Social Security card and I did not have one. I am not from Denver and would have had to leave without cashing. The oldtimers I was asking looked at me like I was trying to scam them. Finally found some drunk guy who got it and cashed for me.

A couple of moths ago at the Arlington Park OTB I hit a signer. Same deal, I am not from Chicago. I went to the window and they took my license and trusted me on the SS number. Made life very easy.

And of course, just save enough losing tickets to offset the ones you need to sign for in the eveny your audited. You can claim losses up to your reported winnings. You need to do more than just save losing tickets as anyone who has been audited will tell you.

[bello]

You need to do more than just save losing tickets as anyone who has been audited will tell you.

That was my accountants advice....May be wrong?

[Ocala Mike]

What Robert said about the need for more than losing tickets, which anyone can pick up off the floor. You are required to keep records of all your wagers in order to satisfy the auditor (and the law).
Also, speaking as an ex-Tax Auditor for the State of New York back in the BC (before computers) day, I can assure you that it would be wise of all of you to keep talk of "10%-ing" to a minimum on here. The IRS is, indeed, cracking down on this activity, and the Mutuel Manager at OBS ITW showed me some recent correspondence he received from the IRS about this. In short, there are many Lois Lerner types at the IRS who get off on scouring the internet for audit targets, whether for political reasons or just to get feathers in their caps. The less said, the better.

[iceknight]

What Robert said about the need for more than losing tickets, which anyone can pick up off the floor. You are required to keep records of all your wagers in order to satisfy the auditor (and the law).
Also, speaking as an ex-Tax Auditor for the State of New York back in the BC (before computers) day, I can assure you that it would be wise of all of you to keep talk of "10%-ing" to a minimum on here. The IRS is, indeed, cracking down on this activity, and the Mutuel Manager at OBS ITW showed me some recent correspondence he received from the IRS about this. In short, there are many Lois Lerner types at the IRS who get off on scouring the internet for audit targets, whether for political reasons or just to get feathers in their caps. The less said, the better. What you say is right. Except the IRS does not fix its own house but of course, I will go and gripe about this in the offtopic forum!

Also, something to keep in mind is that this forum does show up on google searches whereas there are other forums or PMs etc that will not show up in a general google search.

[AndyC]

This is a very confusing thread. I understand the 10 percenters. They (supposedly) are people who have little or no (declared) income, and so are willing to aid and abet the avoidance of tax payment by the ticket purchaser on that income by declaring it to be their own. Huh. I must be reading this wrong. That would make it seem like tax evasion, as well as advocating that others do the same.

I don't really care much what anyone does. You can even do like the big boys do, and run it through your Canadian attorney. However, it seems there are some topics that should be discussed with a bit more discretion. It doesn't matter much if you are only cashing occasional tickets, or betting peanuts. If you are a serious bettor, it is strongly recommended that you consult an attorney, an accountant, or the IRS about such practices.

Bear in mind that "10 percenter" also refers to the IRS informants who collect bounties.

If you can't afford to pay the taxes on the income you generate from wagering, perhaps you are not doing as well as you like to believe. Or doing as well as you would like others to believe.


I don't understand 10 percenters. It certainly doesn't take too many signers to put yourself into a serious tax liability. But of course if you are using bogus ID it really doesn't matter. So in the end there are bettors evading taxes, 10%ers acting as accomplices (also evading taxes) and even tellers willing to facilitate the crime.

[AndyC]

What Robert said about the need for more than losing tickets, which anyone can pick up off the floor. You are required to keep records of all your wagers in order to satisfy the auditor (and the law).
Also, speaking as an ex-Tax Auditor for the State of New York back in the BC (before computers) day, I can assure you that it would be wise of all of you to keep talk of "10%-ing" to a minimum on here. The IRS is, indeed, cracking down on this activity, and the Mutuel Manager at OBS ITW showed me some recent correspondence he received from the IRS about this. In short, there are many Lois Lerner types at the IRS who get off on scouring the internet for audit targets, whether for political reasons or just to get feathers in their caps. The less said, the better.

What most people don't understand is that a bettor is suppose to declare ALL winnings and not just the winnings shown on their W-2G. To show up with a box of losing tickets and a W-2G would be laughable to any auditor with a clue. The first question I would ask as an auditor would be "Gee Mr. Smith you must be the most unlucky horse bettor ever. You have a box full of losing tickets and only won one race all year. Did you ever cash any tickets that didn't require you to sign at the window?"

[thespaah]

I don't understand 10 percenters. It certainly doesn't take too many signers to put yourself into a serious tax liability. But of course if you are using bogus ID it really doesn't matter. So in the end there are bettors evading taxes, 10%ers acting as accomplices (also evading taxes) and even tellers willing to facilitate the crime.
Evading taxes? HA! We pay enough as it is.

[burnsy]

Shemp, I don;t think you have to worry.

I hit a $800 pick three at the Spa a few years ago, and didn't have my SS card with me. When I provided the number, however, the teller was able to call up and verify it via some sort of clearing mechanism - don't recall if he spoke with someone on the other end of the phone, or simply keyed in my number.

For good measure, he took my picture. Guess they're cracking down on the 10%'ers too....

Once you cash one at NYRA tracks or Simulcasts you are in their system. When you identify yourself, they can find it. They always take pics now, that's why I call it the "winners circle".

I was out at Buffalo for the BC a few years ago. I was going to a Bills vs. Jets game. I hit a huge exacta in the marathon.....no SS card and the local OTB would not cash it. The teller suggested a 10%er but I didn't know a soul out there. So I went through my car and somehow found an old tax return...they accepted it. Thought I might be driving 4 and half hours to cash later. It is kind of stupid no one carries those anymore.

[FantasticDan]

I have had this problem the last year or so in NJ. NY, and DE. They are cracking down and apparently there are no exceptions.Just wanted to echo this.. I'm a small-time player, so signers are a rarity for me. But in yrs past, there was no SS card required for me to sign at my local NYS OTB. Then a couple yrs ago they asked for one, and I didn't have it on me. The teller let me slide, but she said soon there would be no exceptions. So when I hit the Belmont this year for a nice chunk, I knew to bring it along when I signed.

[JustRalph]

I don't mind the SS card requirement, but when they start asking if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, there's going to be trouble

[WP1981]

What I don't get is how you can go for years without a SS card in your possession. You need one to get a job or open a bank accout or any one of many other things.

I work for myself and have never needed for banking or anything. Years back I would use a copy of my birth certificate for employment.

[elhelmete]

I think this is all about the new W9 requirements.

[traynor]

What most people don't understand is that a bettor is suppose to declare ALL winnings and not just the winnings shown on their W-2G. To show up with a box of losing tickets and a W-2G would be laughable to any auditor with a clue. The first question I would ask as an auditor would be "Gee Mr. Smith you must be the most unlucky horse bettor ever. You have a box full of losing tickets and only won one race all year. Did you ever cash any tickets that didn't require you to sign at the window?"

The first question is quite likely to be, "Explain why you made this wager, on this horse, in this race." If one does not have an answer to that question, one is likely to do really poorly for the rest of the interview.

Specifically, "professional level wagering" requires not just a thorough and complete record of each and every wager made (and the result) but a thorough and complete record of why each of those wagers was made. Easy for computer users, REALLY tough for the "reinvent the wheel every race" types who lack any coherent approach to wagering strategy. The upside is that if wagering is professional, a bad year can be discounted, and a boom year can be spread over several. LOTS of advantages, if one is making serious amounts of money from wagering.

[thaskalos]

The first question is quite likely to be, "Explain why you made this wager, on this horse, in this race." If one does not have an answer to that question, one is likely to do really poorly for the rest of the interview.

Specifically, "professional level wagering" requires not just a thorough and complete record of each and every wager made (and the result) but a thorough and complete record of why each of those wagers was made. Easy for computer users, REALLY tough for the "reinvent the wheel every race" types who lack any coherent approach to wagering strategy. The upside is that if wagering is professional, a bad year can be discounted, and a boom year can be spread over several. LOTS of advantages, if one is making serious amounts of money from wagering.

I routinely get audited every couple of years. The first question usually is: "Show me your logbook where you have every one of your wagers neatly documented...along with the corresponding results".

If you claim to be at the track every day, like I do...they may even ask for written proof from one of the track managers that you attend the races as often as you say you do.

I remember the very first time that I was audited...when I listened to a tax-preparing friend of mine, and walked into the IRS office carrying a box-full of losing tickets and track-program covers. It was a very costly mistake...

[1st time lasix]

the going "signer" rate where i am located is only 5% not 10% .....they seem rather busy at times.... Some who generally play multi-horse exotics suggest this is the reason they still frequent the place rather than get rebates at home. Evidently a ticket over 5 k is a different proposition due to the automatic witholding. But what do I know.....

[thaskalos]

the going "signer" rate where i am located is only 5% not 10% .....they seem rather busy at times.... Some who generally play multi-horse exotics suggest this is the reason they still frequent the place rather than get rebates at home. Evidently a ticket over 5 k is a different proposition due to the automatic witholding. But what do I know.....

The going rate is usually 10%...but you get a discount if you are a repeat customer.

[Dave Schwartz]

Tell them you are in this country illegally. :lol:

[thaskalos]

Look...I am not advocating the use of these 10%-ers. But the IRS laws are very unfair when it comes to horse-betting...and they often put horseplayers in a terrible bind. It is the total INCOME from the horses that should be taxable...not the proceeds from the indvividual bets themselves. If the horseplayer is a loser for the year -- as almost all of them are -- then what taxes is the IRS looking to collect?

Yes...it's easy to say that a man should include his gambling activity in his yearly income taxes...but reporting your corresponding losses to offset the winnings usually requires a more understanding wife than most horseplayers have been blessed with :). And the IRS should KNOW that...

[traynor]

Look...I am not advocating the use of these 10%-ers. But the IRS laws are very unfair when it comes to horse-betting...and they often put horseplayers in a terrible bind. It is the total INCOME from the horses that should be taxable...not the proceeds from the indvividual bets themselves. If the horseplayer is a loser for the year -- as almost all of them are -- then what taxes is the IRS looking to collect?

Yes...it's easy to say that a man should include his gambling activity in his yearly income taxes...but reporting your corresponding losses to offset the winnings usually requires a more understanding wife than most horseplayers have been blessed with :). And the IRS should KNOW that...

Perhaps in what George H. W. Bush called a "kinder, gentler world" such might be so. Not in this one. Like many other areas, serious wagering is what it is. And--like many other areas--it is possible to do well by simply accepting things as they are in reality (rather than how we would like them to be), and continually seeking ways to leverage what advantages exist.

You might consider consulting with your attorney about setting up an LLC just for wagering activities.

[thaskalos]

Perhaps in what George H. W. Bush called a "kinder, gentler world" such might be so. Not in this one. Like many other areas, serious wagering is what it is. And--like many other areas--it is possible to do well by simply accepting things as they are in reality (rather than how we would like them to be), and continually seeking ways to leverage what advantages exist.

You might consider consulting with your attorney about setting up an LLC just for wagering activities.
Thanks...but I was not writing about myself in that post.

[1st time lasix]

I use my visa card every single time i visit a gaming establishment....Track/simulcast/race book/ or casino hotel etc ---- so there is an obvious trail. A track record of being there for the auditor. Even if I just buy an adult beverage...I use the card....no matter how much cash i have in my pocket. I also use a seperate debit visa whenever i go to an ATM for wagering cash....so that is also documented at year end. Keeping a trunk load of tickets is rather silly....and likely worthless. Every reasonable irs agent is really looking for any pattern of deceit or fraud. That includes red flags of charitable deductions and business expenses that don't really match your income level. Just don't give him one. I was audited twice in 1989 and 1991...I brought my accountant with me and a box or two of records.....passed both times.....never again since. I claim the 5 k and up paramutual tickets. Try to get a portion of that back with offsetting losses on my itemized 1040. The key is intent. If they even get a hint there is intention to defraud...you can kiss you butt good bye....:D $$$$$

[Robert Goren]

All I know about the IRS and records is what my sister-in-law,a now retired IRS auditor, told me 15 years. She told me to keep a journal of my bets and keep my losing tickets. You should have a reasonable amount of winning bets in your journal. She said it would be hard to deduct expenses such as the DRF and track admissions. I am not saying that it is fair, but just relaying what she told me. At this point, I decided the course of action was to avoid making bets that would be signers. I was firm believer in flying under the radar when gambling and dealing with the IRS. I no longer gamble enough to matter.

[Dahoss2002]

If the horseplayer is a loser for the year -- as almost all of them are -- then what taxes is the IRS looking to collect?

Yes...it's easy to say that a man should include his gambling activity in his yearly income taxes...but reporting your corresponding losses to offset the winnings usually requires a more understanding wife than most horseplayers have been blessed with :). And the IRS should KNOW that...

:ThmbUp: Gonna use a quote I used to see here from a certain poster.

AMEN BRUDDAH!!

[traynor]

Thanks...but I was not writing about myself in that post.

The suggestion was intended as generic advice for anyone who is wagering profitably, not personal at all.

[AndyC]

Perhaps in what George H. W. Bush called a "kinder, gentler world" such might be so. Not in this one. Like many other areas, serious wagering is what it is. And--like many other areas--it is possible to do well by simply accepting things as they are in reality (rather than how we would like them to be), and continually seeking ways to leverage what advantages exist.

You might consider consulting with your attorney about setting up an LLC just for wagering activities.

What ills do you think an LLC would cure? Wouldn't an LLC typically be used to insulate the owners from liability issues?

[Jay Trotter]

I would suggest placing your wagers via your Canadian friends. No taxes on winnings here! :jump:

[traynor]

What ills do you think an LLC would cure? Wouldn't an LLC typically be used to insulate the owners from liability issues?

Not necessarily. They tend to keep specific activities specific, rather than muddled in a heap with "all income from all sources." It makes it a LOT simpler to document ups and downs in that specific activity (with the advantages that may result).

[traynor]

I would suggest placing your wagers via your Canadian friends. No taxes on winnings here! :jump:

That is getting to be more problematic. Not the issue of Canadian friends, but the attitude of the Canadian government in regard to income from wagering. There seems to be a tendency to regard some of those who "consistently do well" to be outside the intent of the exclusion of gambling winnings from income. That is no great surprise.

[MutuelClerk]

The track I work at we have to see a SS card. The reason is for years we would take Insurance card, horsemans license, etc. Well, there was a 10%'er at our track who caught the eye of the IRS. He was a horseman and always used his harness license when he signed. Come to find out he the SS #'s on his license had numbers transposed. The government went back in his history and fined our track 50.00 for every wrong 5754 he signed. Cost them quite a bit.

At our track the going rate now is 5%. Or so I've heard...:)

[Irish Boy]

Is it illegal to advise someone to seek the services of a 10-percenter?
Yes.

[Irish Boy]

Perhaps in what George H. W. Bush called a "kinder, gentler world" such might be so. Not in this one. Like many other areas, serious wagering is what it is. And--like many other areas--it is possible to do well by simply accepting things as they are in reality (rather than how we would like them to be), and continually seeking ways to leverage what advantages exist.

You might consider consulting with your attorney about setting up an LLC just for wagering activities.
It's not going to do what you think it's going to do. In fact, it's probably going to set off a big red flag for the IRS.

[thaskalos]

Yes.
What's the charge? Encouraging criminal behavior?

[WP1981]

I was able to cash it at Del Mar without much fuss. May be a good idea to go down to the SS office and get a copy. Not planning on driving two hours down the 5 to cash a ticket every time.

[AndyC]

Not necessarily. They tend to keep specific activities specific, rather than muddled in a heap with "all income from all sources." It makes it a LOT simpler to document ups and downs in that specific activity (with the advantages that may result).

All good in theory but I have found that people who tend to be bad record keepers will always be bad record keepers regardless of their intentions or circumstances.

An LLC in CA can be an expensive way to keep your records in one place. There is both an $800 minimum tax and a gross receipts tax to factor in. Other states are much more friendly to LLCs. LLCs organized in other states but do business in CA are subject to the CA rules.

[traynor]

It's not going to do what you think it's going to do. In fact, it's probably going to set off a big red flag for the IRS.

On the contrary, it does exactly what I intend it to do--clearly establish that wagering is an enterprise engaged in for financial reward, just like any other type of business. And I have a very good relationship with the IRS. I keep detailed records, I don't cheat or chisel, and the rewards (and benefits) are substantial.

[Track Collector]

On the contrary, it does exactly what I intend it to do--clearly establish that wagering is an enterprise engaged in for financial reward, just like any other type of business. And I have a very good relationship with the IRS. I keep detailed records, I don't cheat or chisel, and the rewards (and benefits) are substantial.

Exactly!

In response to AndyC's response, it has nothing to do with just trying to have a place to capture all your records, and everything to do with whether the government sees your wagering activity as that of a "hobbyist" vs. that of a "professional" or business.

The IRS requires that ALL wagering activities be reported. If you wager significant money and are classified as a "hobbyist", your tax liabilities will undoubtedly be much higher, bordering on insane/illogical, vs. those who can meet the high hurdles required be considered "professional". An LLC (which is set up solely for the "business" of one's wagering activities) makes it very difficult to argue for the "hobbyist" position and against the "professional" status. Thus a player gets to account for all the wagering activities on schedule "C", which includes taking advantage of racing-related expenses to off-set taxable racing income. It is also possible to achieve "professional" status without the use of an LLC, but it makes life a bit harder. :)

And like traynor, I completely agree that one should keep detailed records and report all income.

[Irish Boy]

On the contrary, it does exactly what I intend it to do--clearly establish that wagering is an enterprise engaged in for financial reward, just like any other type of business. And I have a very good relationship with the IRS. I keep detailed records, I don't cheat or chisel, and the rewards (and benefits) are substantial.
Its fine as long as you are using it for the reasons you describe, which are entirely legitimate. For many people it is a (clumsy) shielding device.

[Irish Boy]

What's the charge? Encouraging criminal behavior?
Aiding or abetting tax fraud, or conspiracy to commit tax fraud.

[traynor]

Exactly!

In response to AndyC's response, it has nothing to do with just trying to have a place to capture all your records, and everything to do with whether the government sees your wagering activity as that of a "hobbyist" vs. that of a "professional" or business.

The IRS requires that ALL wagering activities be reported. If you wager significant money and are classified as a "hobbyist", your tax liabilities will undoubtedly be much higher, bordering on insane/illogical, vs. those who can meet the high hurdles required be considered "professional". An LLC (which is set up solely for the "business" of one's wagering activities) makes it very difficult to argue for the "hobbyist" position and against the "professional" status. Thus a player gets to account for all the wagering activities on schedule "C", which includes taking advantage of racing-related expenses to off-set taxable racing income. It is also possible to achieve "professional" status without the use of an LLC, but it makes life a bit harder. :)

And like traynor, I completely agree that one should keep detailed records and report all income.

It may be difficult to understand for those who believe that squatting on the same piece of dirt for one's entire life is somehow desirable, but I REALLY like to travel and stay (for periods of time) in various strange and new places. In my "previous occupation" as a contract software developer, I had ample opportunity to learn (and understand) the advantages of business-related travel expenses, as opposed to expendable-income travel expenses.

Wagering allows me to conduct income-generating activities in a variety of highly desirable locations--from Australian casinos to Sha Tin--with the considerable tax advantage of deducting legitimate business expenses while doing so.

If one is losing, or only winning trivial amounts, it doesn't matter much. If one is winning non-trivial amounts, the advantages should be apparent.

[traynor]

Aiding or abetting tax fraud, or conspiracy to commit tax fraud.

That is something best avoided, and rightly so. Just as discussions of illegal wagering activities conducted "under the radar" can come back to bite, so can discussions of ways to evade payment of taxes.

[Spiderman]

All good in theory but I have found that people who tend to be bad record keepers will always be bad record keepers regardless of their intentions or circumstances.

An LLC in CA can be an expensive way to keep your records in one place. There is both an $800 minimum tax and a gross receipts tax to factor in. Other states are much more friendly to LLCs. LLCs organized in other states but do business in CA are subject to the CA rules.

An LLC or incorporation may only be beneficial with a minimum gross income of $150,000. Also, there will be self-employment tax aside from gross receipts.

[AndyC]

Exactly!

In response to AndyC's response, it has nothing to do with just trying to have a place to capture all your records, and everything to do with whether the government sees your wagering activity as that of a "hobbyist" vs. that of a "professional" or business.

The IRS requires that ALL wagering activities be reported. If you wager significant money and are classified as a "hobbyist", your tax liabilities will undoubtedly be much higher, bordering on insane/illogical, vs. those who can meet the high hurdles required be considered "professional". An LLC (which is set up solely for the "business" of one's wagering activities) makes it very difficult to argue for the "hobbyist" position and against the "professional" status. Thus a player gets to account for all the wagering activities on schedule "C", which includes taking advantage of racing-related expenses to off-set taxable racing income. It is also possible to achieve "professional" status without the use of an LLC, but it makes life a bit harder. :)

And like traynor, I completely agree that one should keep detailed records and report all income.

As a CPA specializing in tax, I know the issues regarding gambling and taxes. Most people using an LLC would presumably file their taxes as a disregarded entity showing all of their activity on a Schedule C. As such, they would face the same scrutiny as a non-LLC bettor who also files on a Schedule C. So what it really boils down to is how you handle your gambling activities. Using an LLC may put a check mark in your column for intent but in the end substance is more important than form.

[BlueShoe]

Hit a race yesterday for around $2k. I go back to Los Al to cash it today and they won't do it because I don't have my ss card.
You must have gone to the window of the same woman in the Los Al clubhouse I did when I hit a Pick-5 for $2200. First thing she said to me after scanning my ticket was show me your SS card. :ThmbDown:

Have not seen this mentioned yet, but if you are over 65 and do not carry your SS card for supposed safety reasons, you still are zinged. Your SS number is on your medicare card. The senior advocacy groups have tried to eliminate this, but the last I heard, to no avail. A suggestion is make a copy of your medicare card with a strip of tape over the number blanking it out, carrying that, and leaving your SS card at home. Which brings us back to square one; Id'ing oneself when hitting a signer.

[traynor]

As a CPA specializing in tax, I know the issues regarding gambling and taxes. Most people using an LLC would presumably file their taxes as a disregarded entity showing all of their activity on a Schedule C. As such, they would face the same scrutiny as a non-LLC bettor who also files on a Schedule C. So what it really boils down to is how you handle your gambling activities. Using an LLC may put a check mark in your column for intent but in the end substance is more important than form.

I think if a person has to worry about being scrutinized by the IRS, something is fundamentally wrong with that person's income-generating activiites. The typical thing "wrong" is that the person is not earning enough income to pay the appropriate taxes on that income. In that event, one is well-advised to spend more time and effort on improving one's earning ability and less on scheming and conniving ways to avoid paying the appropriate taxes. "Entrepreneurs" in particular seem to have a difficult time in that area.

If one's business--especially if that business is wagering--does not generate enough income to pay the appropriate taxes on that income, perhaps one is not doing as well as he or she pretends (or claims) to be doing, and should consider getting a real job.

[thaskalos]

I think if a person has to worry about being scrutinized by the IRS, something is fundamentally wrong with that person's income-generating activiites. The typical thing "wrong" is that the person is not earning enough income to pay the appropriate taxes on that income. In that event, one is well-advised to spend more time and effort on improving one's earning ability and less on scheming and conniving ways to avoid paying the appropriate taxes. "Entrepreneurs" in particular seem to have a difficult time in that area.

If one's business--especially if that business is wagering--does not generate enough income to pay the appropriate taxes on that income, perhaps one is not doing as well as he or she pretends (or claims) to be doing, and should consider getting a real job.

The horseplayers are married, Traynor...and they sometimes keep certain details of their horseplaying a secret from their wives...lest their hobby be misinterpreted as an "addiction". They hesitate to declare their losses on their tax returns, not because they want to avoid paying their taxes (there seldom is any tax to pay anyway)...but because they want to keep the peace at home.

Where did you acquire the impression that there are that many horse racing "entrepreneurs" around?

[Track Collector]

As a CPA specializing in tax, I know the issues regarding gambling and taxes. Most people using an LLC would presumably file their taxes as a disregarded entity showing all of their activity on a Schedule C. As such, they would face the same scrutiny as a non-LLC bettor who also files on a Schedule C. So what it really boils down to is how you handle your gambling activities. Using an LLC may put a check mark in your column for intent but in the end substance is more important than form.

Hi AndyC,

I am not a CPA. My perspective is from one who has done a significant amount of research, received some excellent advice, and who has successfully endured an audit where my use of the status "professional" was challenged. I have also had a number of other tax-related queries and challenges go in my favor since that time. The key..........know/understand the laws and do what they require.

Setting up an LLC for one's wagering activities is a strong step towards protecting one's desired filing status, but as you noted above, it will provide little benefit if done in a vacuum and not in concert with meeting the other required qualification criteria.

I am proud of what I "think I know" as gained thru personal experience, but laws as they pertain to taxes can be quite complex and subject to future change. To that end, I employ a Tax Professional who has direct experience and expertise with regard to tax situations similar to mine. :)

[seattlemorn]

It is not uncommon for an OTB teller to have fake info or 10% info on the ready in the higher class part of certain OTB's in the Chicago area I worked as a manager in and use that info to make themselves a nice living. I had just started working mutuals at a location and noticed the same name on many signers, with very different looking signatures showing up all the time. This is the kind of stuff that really needs to be stopped. Of course it is highly doubtful the IRS ever caught wind of it. When I informed my bosses, it was figured out quickly a manager was in on it and the person responsible was forced to resign, but the teller was still there as of a few years ago.

The real story that needs to be public is what these crooks do with the "outs." Each day you could run a report on these really outdated computers of the tickets that were going to go uncashed and be locked out due to the time limit for cashing being up. First, you wouldn't believe how many tickets go uncashed, and second, you wouldn't believe how many of these tickets were being cashed by the same person mentioned above to fund his lifestyle. Absolutely amazing. The money that just falls through the cracks due to complete incompetence in horse racing is mind boggling. The mutual system is the same today as it was 15-20 years ago for the most part. Technology is not embraced. I realize I took this off the tracks a little, but the tax dollars lost in the first scam had to be pretty significant. These were not small time players, and this is a large money area we are talking about.

[Ocala Mike]

The real story that needs to be public is what these crooks do with the "outs." Each day you could run a report on these really outdated computers of the tickets that were going to go uncashed and be locked out due to the time limit for cashing being up. First, you wouldn't believe how many tickets go uncashed, and second, you wouldn't believe how many of these tickets were being cashed by the same person mentioned above to fund his lifestyle. Absolutely amazing.


Ah. yes, the outstanding tickets file. When I worked as a pari-mutuel auditor for NY State, we had control over the computerized printout, and diligently monitored the outstanding tickets balance until "escheat" time on 3/31. One of the arguments put forth about retaining our jobs back more than 20 years ago now was that this monitoring function would be lost. Alas, the state in its inimitable wisdom went and ahead and disbanded our outfit anyway. Impossible to say how much revenue was lost to the state, and how many "lifestyles" were funded by thievery.

[Grits]

Having the super in one of yesterday afternoon's races, here at Saratoga, I did not have to produce my SS card, but instead, was simply asked for my #. This, along with all info on my driver's license. A photo was taken, as well. ... The photo thing--a first.

[Longshot6977]

Having the super in one of yesterday afternoon's races, here at Saratoga, I did not have to produce my SS card, but instead, was simply asked for my #. This, along with all info on my driver's license. A photo was taken, as well. ... The photo thing--a first.

When I was last at Saratoga about 6 or 7 years ago, I remember seeing the some teller windows ( I think at the $50 windows) with cameras pointing at the patron buying and cashing large tickets. So I guess they've been taking photos for quite some time for the IRS.

[Grits]

I've been coming here the month of August, and to Belmont since 2001. I knew there had been comments about SS#s and other ID being required. I hoped to help others with the post. This is not the first signer I've ever had at a racetrack, but it is the first photo ever taken for one. To be honest, it doesn't matter. I don't really care.

When I was last at Saratoga about 6 or 7 years ago, I remember seeing the some teller windows ( I think at the $50 windows) with cameras pointing at the patron buying and cashing large tickets. So I guess they've been taking photos for quite some time for the IRS.