Best American Horse Since 2000: And your Top 10

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I apologize if this type of question is already in the archives (I tried to find one similar and couldn't), and I'm sure the savvy crowd on here has likely heard this question before. However it kind of came up in another thread on here...

Who do you feel has been the best American bred (American raced) horse since 2000? And along with your best, what are your Top 10?

Parameters around this question are as such:

1. Must have been an American bred horse
2. Must have done the majority (80% majority) of their racing in America
3. Can be a male or female horse
4. The horse must be classified as a thoroughbred that runs in American races of at least 4 furlongs or more
5. Must have won at least a single Grade 1 race
6. Needs to have at least 2 years of racing
7. Horse can win the majority of its races at any distance, but preference should be made towards horses that run and win the majority of their races at a Mile or more.

What do you say?

[DeltaLover]

My vote goes to Curlin

[SmartyLane]

This is a quick go at it. Not in any real order either as that would take a lot of thinking about ;) A few of these are hard for me to put on here based on the number of races but oh well, would take a long time to think about this........

Ghostzapper
Point Given
Smarty Jones
Curlin
Zenyatta
Rachel A.
Tiznow
Afleet Alex
Big Brown
Empire Maker

That was just going off the top of my head, and Empire and Alex probably don't deserve making it based off them being done after TC or race immediately after. Would probably change a couple if I thought more about it.

[TheEdge07]

This is a quick go at it. Not in any real order either as that would take a lot of thinking about ;) A few of these are hard for me to put on here based on the number of races but oh well, would take a long time to think about this........

Ghostzapper
Point Given
Smarty Jones
Curlin
Zenyatta
Rachel A.
Tiznow
Afleet Alex
Big Brown
Empire Maker

That was just going off the top of my head, and Empire and Alex probably don't deserve making it based off them being done after TC or race immediately after. Would probably change a couple if I thought more about it.

Bernadini imo was better then Big Brown and Empire Maker

[Stillriledup]

Bernadini imo was better then Big Brown and Empire Maker

He was?

[jahura2]

1.Curlin
2.Tiznow
3.Wise Dan
4.Z-yatta
5.Point Given

[Thebigguy]

Is this based on talent or accomplishments? Or on who I actually believe were the most talented horses since 2000???????

[Thebigguy]

He was?


Big Brown was not much horse. He was like this years Untapable. He beat up on horrible horses.

[Thebigguy]

1. Ghostzapper
2. Bernardini
3. Zenyatta
4. Point Given
5. Commentator
6. Eskendereya
7. Quality Road
8. Tiznow
9. Curlin
10. Rachel

[Some_One]

1.Ghostzapper
2.Point Given
3.Curlin
4.Invasor
5.Tiznow

[thespaah]

Tiznow....

[thaskalos]

1. Invasor
2. Curlin
3. Ghostzapper
4. Point Given
5. Smarty Jones

Top ten is overdoing it...IMO.

[JustRalph]

If you're going back to 2000, I have to toss in some names like

War Emblem

Megdalia D Oro

Perfect Drift

If you are talking accomplishments at stud, throw in Harlan's Holiday.

[Thebigguy]

If you're going back to 2000, I have to toss in some names like

War Emblem

Megdalia D Oro

Perfect Drift

If you are talking accomplishments at stud, throw in Harlan's Holiday.


Why would anyone be talking about accomplishments at stud? Megdalia D Oro I agree with. I might have been Perfect Drifts biggest fan, but if anything he underachieved. How did he lose that Whitney to Roses In May is still a great mystery. Even his close Stephen Foster loss to a 30-1 shot should have never happened....

[JustRalph]

Why would anyone be talking about accomplishments at stud? Megdalia D Oro I agree with. I might have been Perfect Drifts biggest fan, but if anything he underachieved. How did he lose that Whitney to Roses In May is still a great mystery. Even his close Stephen Foster loss to a 30-1 shot should have never happened....

Points well taken. But they're some of my favs along with GhostZapper.

[Some_One]

Perfect Drift had a bad case of herd mentality, no way he could ever lead a pack unless it fell apart in front of him.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Tiznow....

I still have no idea how he won this one.

He was done, finished, zip, over. And...

Top 5 horse races of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QqdYJeCts

[trifecta]

I know he didn't race two full years, but I liked Barbaro.

[Thebigguy]

I know he didn't race two full years, but I liked Barbaro.


I liked Barbaro, and its scary because he was probably a better turf horse.....
If the tragic breakdown didn't happen, I think Bernardini would have run away from him in the Preakness.

[Redboard]

I'll have to think about this more but along with the ones that have been mentioned, I'll have to include Fabulous Strike and Better Talk Now.

[jwb]

Lost in the Fog ...

[TheEdge07]

No mention of

Ill Have Another..

[RacingFan1992]

I would have to say Paddy O'Prado. I loved his grass performances.

[Cholly]

Their order might be contested, but I’d brook no argument as to the triumvirate that occupy the three top spots. Winning other races is nice, but in this country the only the KY Derby and the BC Classic mark champions.

Tiznow won the Classic twice; Zenyatta won it once and lost a 2nd time by a diminishing head. Curlin did only win the Classic once, but he gets a pass for his 4yo season since the Classic wasn’t held in 2008 (unless you count the bastard polyvinyl version, and I don’t). And in that Classic-less year, he won Dubai World Cup (on dirt) and the JCGC among others. Throw in his 3rd in the Derby and his being the all-time earnings leader, and there’s no doubt he should join the other two atop the list.

[MNslappy]

http://shineunited.com/shine-assets/Asset-00620_image.jpg

Wise Dan: No Respect.

Doesn't this guy have to be on everyone's Top 10 list?

[Smarty Cide]

1. Curlin
2. Ghostzapper
3. Zenyatta
4. Big Brown
5. California Chrome - yeah i said it, let the shit storm begin

[Fingal]

Tiznow
Rock Hard Ten
Lava Man
Zenyatta
Point Given
Beholder
Funny Cide
Animal Kingdom
Curlin
Wise Dan

[NJ Stinks]

Invasor would top my list too but he was bred in Argentina.

In no particular order:

Ghostzapper
Blame
Pleasantly Perfect
Tiznow
Smarty Jones
Port of Entry
Curlin
Afleet Alex
Rachel Alexandra
Midnight Lute


Wise Dan & Zenyatta don't make the list due to scheduling problems.

[SandyLoam]

Chrome? Not no, but not yet.

[dilanesp]

Zenyatta, and it's not close. Best American racehorse of either gender since Skip Away or maybe even Cigar, best female in history, in the top 20 in American history.

As for as a ten best, I'm not sure I can go in any particular order here, but:

Zenyatta
Ghostzapper- wish we got to see him run more. He was fast and classy.
Curlin- his best races were off the charts.
Tiznow- only 2-time BC Classic winner plus a bunch of big races in California.
Rachel Alexandra- her Preakness and Kentucky Oaks wins were dominant.
Wise Dan- not sure he should have been a 2-time HOTY, but he was very good on dirt and turf
Game On Dude- rarely wins the big one, but on his best day he's a beast (and he was unlucky to lose to Drosselmeyer)
Mineshaft- he was the best horse in America when he was sound
Lava Man- possibly the result of doping, couldn't duplicate his form outside Calfiornia
Blame- best older male in America and only horse to defeat Zenyatta

[dilanesp]

I still have no idea how he won this one.

He was done, finished, zip, over. And...

Top 5 horse races of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QqdYJeCts

I attended that BC and cashed a big ticket on Tiznow.

The Racing Digest's comment on his pre-Breeders' Cup workout was that he looked amazing. I believe it was Bruno de Julio who watched the workout, and said that all his physical problems looked to behind him and he was sitting on a big race.

I hope Bruno cashed on him too.

[ronsmac]

1.Ghostzapper 2.Zenyatta
3.Tiznow
4.Midnight Lute
5.Pleasantly Perfect
6.St.Liam
7.Roses in May
8.English Channel
9.Kona Gold
10.Curlin

[RunDustyRun]

1. Tiznow
2. Zenyatta
3. Animal Kingdom
4. Game On Dude
5. Wise Dan

[thespaah]

I still have no idea how he won this one.

He was done, finished, zip, over. And...

Top 5 horse races of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QqdYJeCts
When I was in the racing business way back when, I heard a term used extensively around the farm and in the paddock, "heart"....As in "he's got a lot of heart"..That's a good description of Tiznow.
Tiznow is my favorite( as a fan, forget the wagering aspect) kind of course.
I picture a running back who looks like he's tackled and emerges from the pile and takes off. Or being caught from behind. Suddenly he appears to run away again.
That horse never quit.

[sandpit]

Zenyatta, and it's not close. Best American racehorse of either gender since Skip Away or maybe even Cigar, best female in history, in the top 20 in American history.


I loved Zenyatta, was at HP when she broke her maiden and saw her barely lose her final start at Churchill Downs. Easily the most charismatic horse in a long time, but I don't see how you can say she is better than Ruffian. Any filly that sets or equals a track or stakes record in EVERY ONE of her races is simply on another level.

[dilanesp]

I loved Zenyatta, was at HP when she broke her maiden and saw her barely lose her final start at Churchill Downs. Easily the most charismatic horse in a long time, but I don't see how you can say she is better than Ruffian. Any filly that sets or equals a track or stakes record in EVERY ONE of her races is simply on another level.

Compare the horses behind Zenyatta in her three BC races to the horses Ruffian beat.

[Some_One]

Zenyatta, and it's not close. Best American racehorse of either gender since Skip Away or maybe even Cigar, best female in history, in the top 20 in American history.


Zenyatta is the best polytrack horse ever, which puts her maybe in the top 100 of all horses considering the rich, rich history of polytrack racing in the US.

For 2001+ #1 female for my it Xtra Heat, speed figures that current day sprinters can't come close to

[mutualwagerer]

Couple that I don't think I saw mentioned

Gio Ponti
Court Vision
Palace Malice
Super Saver
Uncle Mo

[dilanesp]

Zenyatta is the best polytrack horse ever, which puts her maybe in the top 100 of all horses considering the rich, rich history of polytrack racing in the US.

For 2001+ #1 female for my it Xtra Heat, speed figures that current day sprinters can't come close to

Seriously this is messed up. If we completely ignore anything she did on poly, on the totally stupid ground that such races don't count, you will still wait decades for a mare to come from last, 10 lengths behind the next to last horse, to miss by a head in the Breeders' Cup Classic. In other words, her dirt form alone establishes her as the greatest female American racehorse.

And, of course, poly races DO count.

[Stillriledup]

Compare the horses behind Zenyatta in her three BC races to the horses Ruffian beat.

Zenyatta beat older males from behind, all Ruffian did was win short fields, at 1-5 on the lead unchallenged and who knows who she beat, yet, when people talk about Z, you hear all the questions about shipping around, racing on plastic, beating "nobody" etc....nobody ever questions what Ruffian did or didn't do.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Vindication.

Photo for second, back to a distant Curlin and Afleet Alex.

[Billnewman]

I still have no idea how he won this one.

He was done, finished, zip, over. And...

Top 5 horse races of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QqdYJeCts


To me that looks more like grit than raw talent

[Some_One]

Seriously this is messed up. If we completely ignore anything she did on poly, on the totally stupid ground that such races don't count, you will still wait decades for a mare to come from last, 10 lengths behind the next to last horse, to miss by a head in the Breeders' Cup Classic. In other words, her dirt form alone establishes her as the greatest female American racehorse.

And, of course, poly races DO count.

That CD BC where the track was so deep that while it looked like she was struggling she actually ran the fastest opening split in her career which meant the whole entire field in front of her was at suicidal pace, similar to the Mine That Bird derby? That race showed how great Blame was to be that close to the pace and still have something left in the stretch. Gotta give props to the brilliance of her connections, they used 1-2 races to validate the rest of her pathetic campaign.

Sure poly races count, but not for much, that's why every track is ripping them up, and with the exception of Animal Kingdom, a bunch of no name locals won the DWC to the point that the Sheikh has been forced to rip the track up to get the Americans back.

[thaskalos]

That CD BC where the track was so deep that while it looked like she was struggling she actually ran the fastest opening split in her career which meant the whole entire field in front of her was at suicidal pace, similar to the Mine That Bird derby? That race showed how great Blame was to be that close to the pace and still have something left in the stretch. Gotta give props to the brilliance of her connections, they used 1-2 races to validate the rest of her pathetic campaign.

Sure poly races count, but not for much, that's why every track is ripping them up, and with the exception of Animal Kingdom, a bunch of no name locals won the DWC to the point that the Sheikh has been forced to rip the track up to get the Americans back.
Would you care to give us your opinion on where Zenyatta rates among this country's best fillies and mares?

[Stillriledup]

Would you care to give us your opinion on where Zenyatta rates among this country's best fillies and mares?

Is there anyone who thinks she doesn't?

[dilanesp]

Gotta give props to the brilliance of her connections, they used 1-2 races to validate the rest of her pathetic campaign.

I will try to reach one note of agreement. I quite agree that Zenyatta's connections ran her in a bunch of easy races on synthetics against a weak California crop of females. And that I would have liked to have seen her run in some more tough situations even if had meant a few more losses on her record.

But you are ridiculously underrating what she did when they actually DID run her against top class fields.

[appistappis]

surprised no one mentioned mucho macho man

[iceknight]

Couple that I don't think I saw mentioned

Gio Ponti
Court Vision
Palace Malice
Super Saver
<b>Uncle Mo </b> Huh? << Please let us know when you wake up from your dream if you are ever thinking of Uncle Mo in any top 10 list.. (maybe in the top 10 of overhyped horses. .yes). Palace Malice a little early still be in top 10. Gio Ponti - very consistent, half a nod. Court Vision - hmm Super Saver but not Street Sense?

[Smarty Cide]

Please let us know when you wake up from your dream if you are ever thinking of Uncle Mo in any top 10 list.. (maybe in the top 10 of overhyped horses. .yes). Palace Malice a little early still be in top 10. Gio Ponti - very consistent, half a nod. Court Vision - hmm Super Saver but not Street Sense?



lets also not forget square eddie, old fashion, friesen fire, and medal count

[Grits]

Sadly, this thread has become a tiresome tout, again, for one mare. Much of the fawning, primarily, from one who, just days ago, declared the Woodward Stakes, meaningless, and another who, obviously, knows nothing about Ruffian's racing record.

Aside from her last, as we know, Ruffian won all of her races by more lengths than we can count. Distances from 5.5 to 12 furlongs. Zenyatta's a fine mare but one who never saw the front end or the rear end of 12 furlongs. The mention of her name in a conversation with Ruffian is a joke.

... Please, go back to Twitter.

[Thebigguy]

Couple that I don't think I saw mentioned

Gio Ponti
Court Vision
Palace Malice
Super Saver
Uncle Mo

Super Saver sucked.

[Thebigguy]

Sadly, this thread has become a tiresome tout, again, for one mare. Much of the fawning, primarily, from one who, just days ago, declared the Woodward Stakes, meaningless, and another who, obviously, knows nothing about Ruffian's racing record.

Aside from her last, as we know, Ruffian won all of her races by more lengths than we can count. Distances from 5.5 to 12 furlongs. Zenyatta's a fine mare but one who never saw the front end or the rear end of 12 furlongs. The mention of her name in a conversation with Ruffian is a joke.

... Please, go back to Twitter.

I would also take Zenyatta over Ruffian. I believe Zenyattas only loss validated her greatness, as much as any of her wins did.

[Grits]

I would also take Zenyatta over Ruffian. I believe Zenyattas only loss validated her greatness, as much as any of her wins did.

I respect her and I'd gladly put her in the running, but no, not over Ruffian. Her having won the Triple Tiara.

[dilanesp]

Sadly, this thread has become a tiresome tout, again, for one mare. Much of the fawning, primarily, from one who, just days ago, declared the Woodward Stakes, meaningless, and another who, obviously, knows nothing about Ruffian's racing record.

Aside from her last, as we know, Ruffian won all of her races by more lengths than we can count. Distances from 5.5 to 12 furlongs. Zenyatta's a fine mare but one who never saw the front end or the rear end of 12 furlongs. The mention of her name in a conversation with Ruffian is a joke.

... Please, go back to Twitter.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me who Ruffian beat....

[dilanesp]

I respect her and I'd gladly put her in the running, but no, not over Ruffian. Her having won the Triple Tiara.

Chris Evert won the Triple Tiara, and came out to Hollywood Park and beat Miss Musket by 50 lengths in a match race. Plus, she threw Six Crowns, the dam of Chief's Crown.

Shuvee won the Triple Tiara and the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

Open Mind won the Triple Tiara, the Kentucky Oaks, and the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies.

Winning the Triple Tiara isn't THAT big a deal. Again, who did Ruffian beat?

(By the way, it's interesting you think I don't know anything about horse racing. I rattled all of the above off from memory, although I checked it.)

[classhandicapper]

IMO, Ghostzapper was the best horse in that time period, but I am in the unusual position of thinking he was both the best horse and simultaneously overrated by some people.

He really only faced 2 tough fields in his entire career.

In one he struggled against St Liam before that horse had even hit his best stride.

In the other he arguably beat the best Classic field ever assembled and IMO put all the questions to rest. However, I am also of the very strong opinion that at least 2 of his 120+ Beyer figures were inflated (Including his Classic) and a 3rd was on an off track.

Just a note on Ruffian. I did not even attempt to make figures at that stage of my iinterest, but according to people that have seen her Ragozin Sheet she did not earn figures that were as fast as many intuitively believe based on her sheer dominance. Of course I can also make a great case that you can't trust figures to compare horses from different generations. :lol:

[Grits]

(By the way, it's interesting you think I don't know anything about horse racing. I rattled all of the above off from memory, although I checked it.)

I didn't say you didn't know anything about racing. Its money you don't know anything about. When one's earned 750K, they sure have sense enough to know it means something ... as far as racing trivia, knock yourself out.

[Billnewman]

No one has mentioned Azeri she was a fast mare 2001 if i remember

[EMD4ME]

I would also take Zenyatta over Ruffian. I believe Zenyattas only loss validated her greatness, as much as any of her wins did.

Her 1 loss validated the opposite. She sucked up in the classic. Her slow break benefitted her as she conserved energy and 'ran' in the non performance part of the race. Blame laughed at her in the gallop out. (after he spent energy being much closer to that pace).

Ruffian was never a garbage collecter (suck up/dressed up kind of winner). She dominated , gate to wire. All the time, everywhere, anywhere, at any distance.

No offense to all Zenyatta lovers but she was a super over rated cute giant (amongst tiny females) who benefitted from the (thank god) brief poly CRAP era.

[dilanesp]

Her 1 loss validated the opposite. She sucked up in the classic. Her slow break benefitted her as she conserved energy and 'ran' in the non performance part of the race.

If this were such a great, energy saving, "easy" way to finish in a photo finish in the biggest dirt race in the year, you'd think we would see more horses trying it. Instead, riders routinely gun to the lead or to get position in dirt races. Are they all delusional?

I believe Barry Meadow said that on dirt, "speed is the universal track bias". The reality about Zenyatta's Classic is precisely the opposite from what you say. Her running style is the way some horses successfully run grass (or poly) races; it put her at a huge disadvantage on dirt, which she nonetheless overcame to beat every good male in the country except one (which she lost to by a head) in that race.

No offense to all Zenyatta lovers but she was a super over rated cute giant (amongst tiny females) who benefitted from the (thank god) brief poly CRAP era.

I think this sort of thing is exactly why the greatest female racehorse any of us will ever see will be so underrated. People hated synthetic tracks, and they hated her because she became a symbol of synthetic tracks. (In contrast, many of the same folks cheered Jess Jackson for refusing to run against Zenyatta, which would ordinarily be a decision that everyone would hate and condemn as bad for racing, precisely because they hated the synthetic surface so much that they put all rationality aside.)

[Thebigguy]

Her 1 loss validated the opposite. She sucked up in the classic. Her slow break benefitted her as she conserved energy and 'ran' in the non performance part of the race. Blame laughed at her in the gallop out. (after he spent energy being much closer to that pace).

Ruffian was never a garbage collecter (suck up/dressed up kind of winner). She dominated , gate to wire. All the time, everywhere, anywhere, at any distance.

No offense to all Zenyatta lovers but she was a super over rated cute giant (amongst tiny females) who benefitted from the (thank god) brief poly CRAP era.


This is so far from reality.... Well I wont bother saying anything more, its that bad.

[thaskalos]

I believe Barry Meadow said that on dirt, "speed is the universal track bias".


It was William Quirin.

[thaskalos]

Her 1 loss validated the opposite. She sucked up in the classic. Her slow break benefitted her as she conserved energy and 'ran' in the non performance part of the race. Blame laughed at her in the gallop out. (after he spent energy being much closer to that pace).

Ruffian was never a garbage collecter (suck up/dressed up kind of winner). She dominated , gate to wire. All the time, everywhere, anywhere, at any distance.

No offense to all Zenyatta lovers but she was a super over rated cute giant (amongst tiny females) who benefitted from the (thank god) brief poly CRAP era.

Pray that we never meet...because if we ever do, I am challenging you to a duel.

And you can choose the weapons.

[Stillriledup]

Her 1 loss validated the opposite. She sucked up in the classic. Her slow break benefitted her as she conserved energy and 'ran' in the non performance part of the race. Blame laughed at her in the gallop out. (after he spent energy being much closer to that pace).

Ruffian was never a garbage collecter (suck up/dressed up kind of winner). She dominated , gate to wire. All the time, everywhere, anywhere, at any distance.

No offense to all Zenyatta lovers but she was a super over rated cute giant (amongst tiny females) who benefitted from the (thank god) brief poly CRAP era.

If Ruffian was so great, why talk down about Z?

I know that many put Ruffian up on some pedastal, but i still haven't heard who she beat.

[Grits]

If Ruffian was so great, why talk down about Z?

I know that many put Ruffian up on some pedastal, but i still haven't heard who she beat.

You can (and do) resurrect anything. If you want Ruffian's race record, please, stop asking others. Do it yourself.

Meanwhile--someone named a horse after you--you may want to add your namesake to your stable mail. Six career starts in '13-'14, clunking up for 3rd three times in 5 maiden specials. Running fourth, last out, dropping in a 40k maiden claimer at Saratoga July 20th.

Hushhushmushmush

[EMD4ME]

Pray that we never meet...because if we ever do, I am challenging you to a duel.

And you can choose the weapons.

I've heard a lot of good things about you Thaskalos so I would be honored to meet you.

[EMD4ME]

If this were such a great, energy saving, "easy" way to finish in a photo finish in the biggest dirt race in the year, you'd think we would see more horses trying it. Instead, riders routinely gun to the lead or to get position in dirt races. Are they all delusional?

I believe Barry Meadow said that on dirt, "speed is the universal track bias". The reality about Zenyatta's Classic is precisely the opposite from what you say. Her running style is the way some horses successfully run grass (or poly) races; it put her at a huge disadvantage on dirt, which she nonetheless overcame to beat every good male in the country except one (which she lost to by a head) in that race.



I think this sort of thing is exactly why the greatest female racehorse any of us will ever see will be so underrated. People hated synthetic tracks, and they hated her because she became a symbol of synthetic tracks. (In contrast, many of the same folks cheered Jess Jackson for refusing to run against Zenyatta, which would ordinarily be a decision that everyone would hate and condemn as bad for racing, precisely because they hated the synthetic surface so much that they put all rationality aside.)

I CHALLENGE ANY TRIP HANDICAPPER, WHO IS UNBIASED, to re watch the 11 BC CLASSIC. 4 horses ran off, "FLYING", according to Trevor, by 7. The second flight was bunched up and the 'legendary' Zenyatta drafted behind that second flight tail. On the far turn she followed the flow, UNDERNEATH, tipped out at the 3/16, following cover IN A COLLAPSING RACE. All 12 horses were bunched up at the 1/4. There was what an expert trip handicapper calls "race flow". (as I'm sure 99% of you know).

She had every chance to catch Blame. She hung with a PERFECT TRIP. she was even embarrassed on the gallop out.

I am sorry to hurt the feelings of you Zenyatta lovers. However, the truth of this race is as I just said.

Nice horse, not a legendary monster as she's hyped up to have been.

[Fager Fan]

I believe Barry Meadow said that on dirt, "speed is the universal track bias". The reality about Zenyatta's Classic is precisely the opposite from what you say. Her running style is the way some horses successfully run grass (or poly) races; it put her at a huge disadvantage on dirt, which she nonetheless overcame to beat every good male in the country except one (which she lost to by a head) in that race.

Glad to see you admit this, maybe you'll put Zenyatta's Classic win on synth in proper perspective now and acknowledge how much she was aided in about 18 of her races. It defied belief regularly that crawling front-runners folded so badly and she was able to close in on those crawling times. Had she run those 18 races on dirt, she'd have had many more losses than the one.

[EMD4ME]

If Ruffian was so great, why talk down about Z?

I know that many put Ruffian up on some pedastal, but i still haven't heard who she beat.

Why? Because someone in this thread compared Z to R, that's why.

[Smarty Cide]

Square Eddie anyone? :sleeping:

[dilanesp]

Glad to see you admit this, maybe you'll put Zenyatta's Classic win on synth in proper perspective now and acknowledge how much she was aided in about 18 of her races. It defied belief regularly that crawling front-runners folded so badly and she was able to close in on those crawling times. Had she run those 18 races on dirt, she'd have had many more losses than the one.

I don't know how many losses she would have had. But I do wish she would have run on dirt more.

Having said that, you're comment is weird. We don't criticize other great horses by saying "he had a huge advantage because he loved the dirt so much". All top horses love running on the surface they usually run on. When she DID run on a surface that did not favor her style, she ran amazingly well. Once again, 90 percent of the hatred for Zenyatta is hatred for poly transferred to her.

[mutualwagerer]

I was doing favorites since I saw other people do it :blush: plus u don't win the breeders cup and earn 1.6 mil on hype and was retired due to sickness...I didn't include street sense because I saw other people include him, didn't want to be redundant, just like so many other great horses that were already included.

Please let us know when you wake up from your dream if you are ever thinking of Uncle Mo in any top 10 list.. (maybe in the top 10 of overhyped horses. .yes). Palace Malice a little early still be in top 10. Gio Ponti - very consistent, half a nod. Court Vision - hmm Super Saver but not Street Sense?

[Fager Fan]

I don't know how many losses she would have had. But I do wish she would have run on dirt more.

Having said that, you're comment is weird. We don't criticize other great horses by saying "he had a huge advantage because he loved the dirt so much". All top horses love running on the surface they usually run on. When she DID run on a surface that did not favor her style, she ran amazingly well. Once again, 90 percent of the hatred for Zenyatta is hatred for poly transferred to her.

I'm fairly sure I know my feelings on Zenyatta better than you do. I liked her, and pulled for her, and think she's one of the best females the sport has seen. Does that sound like "hatred" to you? What you sound like is one of those Zenyatta fans who can't take the slightest criticism or fair critique.

Other dirt and turf horses weren't criticized because we've had no similar situation as what was foisted upon us with the installation of synths. They replaced dirt tracks yet didn't play like dirt. Imagine if we waved a magic wand and tomorrow all the East coast dirt tracks were replaced with turf, and Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Bayern, and California Chrome ran in the Woodward on turf. Wise Dan is in the field, and with his advantage of surface preference, he wins the Woodward. Really think that we shouldn't talk of the unfairness of the dirt runners not being able to compete on their preferred surface, or the advantage Wise Dan had against those horses since he did get to compete against them on his preferred surface?

[mutualwagerer]

To all the Ruffian Haters:

The trainer of Secretariat, Lucien Laurin, said to the press, "As God as my witness, she may even be better than Secretariat."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_(horse)

Chris Evert won the Triple Tiara, and came out to Hollywood Park and beat Miss Musket by 50 lengths in a match race. Plus, she threw Six Crowns, the dam of Chief's Crown.

Shuvee won the Triple Tiara and the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

Open Mind won the Triple Tiara, the Kentucky Oaks, and the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies.

Winning the Triple Tiara isn't THAT big a deal. Again, who did Ruffian beat?

(By the way, it's interesting you think I don't know anything about horse racing. I rattled all of the above off from memory, although I checked it.)

[mutualwagerer]

:ThmbUp:

I'm fairly sure I know my feelings on Zenyatta better than you do. I liked her, and pulled for her, and think she's one of the best females the sport has seen. Does that sound like "hatred" to you? What you sound like is one of those Zenyatta fans who can't take the slightest criticism or fair critique.

Other dirt and turf horses weren't criticized because we've had no similar situation as what was foisted upon us with the installation of synths. They replaced dirt tracks yet didn't play like dirt. Imagine if we waved a magic wand and tomorrow all the East coast dirt tracks were replaced with turf, and Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Bayern, and California Chrome ran in the Woodward on turf. Wise Dan is in the field, and with his advantage of surface preference, he wins the Woodward. Really think that we shouldn't talk of the unfairness of the dirt runners not being able to compete on their preferred surface, or the advantage Wise Dan had against those horses since he did get to compete against them on his preferred surface?

[dilanesp]

I'm fairly sure I know my feelings on Zenyatta better than you do. I liked her, and pulled for her, and think she's one of the best females the sport has seen. Does that sound like "hatred" to you? What you sound like is one of those Zenyatta fans who can't take the slightest criticism or fair critique.

Other dirt and turf horses weren't criticized because we've had no similar situation as what was foisted upon us with the installation of synths. They replaced dirt tracks yet didn't play like dirt. Imagine if we waved a magic wand and tomorrow all the East coast dirt tracks were replaced with turf, and Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Bayern, and California Chrome ran in the Woodward on turf. Wise Dan is in the field, and with his advantage of surface preference, he wins the Woodward. Really think that we shouldn't talk of the unfairness of the dirt runners not being able to compete on their preferred surface, or the advantage Wise Dan had against those horses since he did get to compete against them on his preferred surface?

If Z were bad on dirt, that would make sense. But she was great on dirt. Her dirt form does not validate the claim that her synthetic BC Classic win was a fluke. She almost repeated.

Which means the only reason to denigrate her is because you hate synthetics.

[EMD4ME]

Glad to see you admit this, maybe you'll put Zenyatta's Classic win on synth in proper perspective now and acknowledge how much she was aided in about 18 of her races. It defied belief regularly that crawling front-runners folded so badly and she was able to close in on those crawling times. Had she run those 18 races on dirt, she'd have had many more losses than the one.

She probably would've had a dozen losses... yea, beaten by pace/lack of race flow etc. But still a dozen losses.

[EMD4ME]

I'm fairly sure I know my feelings on Zenyatta better than you do. I liked her, and pulled for her, and think she's one of the best females the sport has seen. Does that sound like "hatred" to you? What you sound like is one of those Zenyatta fans who can't take the slightest criticism or fair critique.

Other dirt and turf horses weren't criticized because we've had no similar situation as what was foisted upon us with the installation of synths. They replaced dirt tracks yet didn't play like dirt. Imagine if we waved a magic wand and tomorrow all the East coast dirt tracks were replaced with turf, and Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Bayern, and California Chrome ran in the Woodward on turf. Wise Dan is in the field, and with his advantage of surface preference, he wins the Woodward. Really think that we shouldn't talk of the unfairness of the dirt runners not being able to compete on their preferred surface, or the advantage Wise Dan had against those horses since he did get to compete against them on his preferred surface?

You are being too logical.... you're wasting your time. :bang:

[Grits]

Once again, 90 percent of the hatred for Zenyatta is hatred for poly transferred to her.

Most people have no clue how intense and how overused the words -- hate, hater, and hatred are, everyday. I would feel my heart mighty limited, so small, if I had to bear any such feeling towards animals, humans, or things. Things like synthetic race tracks. Its all so pointless and so juvenile.

[Stillriledup]

You can (and do) resurrect anything. If you want Ruffian's race record, please, stop asking others. Do it yourself.

Meanwhile--someone named a horse after you--you may want to add your namesake to your stable mail. Six career starts in '13-'14, clunking up for 3rd three times in 5 maiden specials. Running fourth, last out, dropping in a 40k maiden claimer at Saratoga July 20th.

Hushhushmushmush

I've bet on that horse, he's a hanging rat, i thought he had some talent last year, but he's just going around in circles these days.

I'm not asking for Ruffian's race record, i'm asking who she beat. If you are going to defend her, it won't be hard to mention all the monsters she slayed along the way. I'n not defending her, so i don't have to research her competition.

[Grits]

Hang, he DOES! :lol: I'm surprised Dubb still owns him.

I don't have to search for anything proving Ruffian. Along with her career, the very fact that she's the only horses buried at Belmont Park tells me all I need to know about greatness.

So, hush. I'm tiring of you now. Its been a long day.

[MargieRose]

Dirt, turf, synthetic blah, blah blah...I'd bet that if horses could talk, they would ALL say that they prefer running on turf...like those lush green pastures that they are raised on for about two years! A dirt surface is what horsemen in this country have decided is the be-all, end-all of racing surfaces. 3/4s of the rest of the horse racing world obviously have a different opinion and truly, IMO, do what's best for the horse!

And anyway, egos aside, what makes racing on a dirt surface so much more preferred over anything else in this country, and why are horses who have excelled on dirt always thought of as being better than horses who have excelled on turf or synthetic? :confused:

Do you want to see some real competition? Dump dirt, dump synthetic and offer a level playing field to the whole world of horse racing...I have no doubt that our horses can handle it...the trainers will have to learn how to!!

[Rex Phinney]

1. Ghostzapper
2. Bernardini
3. Zenyatta
4. Point Given
5. Commentator
6. Eskendereya
7. Quality Road
8. Tiznow
9. Curlin
10. Rachel

I'm asking purely out of curiosity, where would you put Invasor, Goldikova and Frankel if they where allowed on the list?

[Stillriledup]

Hang, he DOES! :lol: I'm surprised Dubb still owns him.

I don't have to search for anything proving Ruffian. Along with her career, the very fact that she's the only horses buried at Belmont Park tells me all I need to know about greatness.

So, hush. I'm tiring of you now. Its been a long day.

Plenty of horseplayers have gotten buried at Belmont, i'm sure they would appreciate you calling them great! :D

[Spiderman]

I attended that BC and cashed a big ticket on Tiznow.

The Racing Digest's comment on his pre-Breeders' Cup workout was that he looked amazing. I believe it was Bruno de Julio who watched the workout, and said that all his physical problems looked to behind him and he was sitting on a big race.

I hope Bruno cashed on him too.

Amazing is an insufficient platitude for the way Tiznow looked at that workout. He owned the racetrack. I attended the workouts at Belmont that day. Tiznow dominated the breadth of the racetrack as if he had wings that spanned across the stretch.

He is #1 since 2000
2. Zenyatta
3. Curlin

Anyone else in race for minor awards

[Fager Fan]

Dirt, turf, synthetic blah, blah blah...I'd bet that if horses could talk, they would ALL say that they prefer running on turf...like those lush green pastures that they are raised on for about two years! A dirt surface is what horsemen in this country have decided is the be-all, end-all of racing surfaces. 3/4s of the rest of the horse racing world obviously have a different opinion and truly, IMO, do what's best for the horse!

And anyway, egos aside, what makes racing on a dirt surface so much more preferred over anything else in this country, and why are horses who have excelled on dirt always thought of as being better than horses who have excelled on turf or synthetic? :confused:

Do you want to see some real competition? Dump dirt, dump synthetic and offer a level playing field to the whole world of horse racing...I have no doubt that our horses can handle it...the trainers will have to learn how to!!

If surface preference is nothing more than training, then why for 20+ years have those trainers in Europe not trained their horses to win the BC Classic, DWC (on dirt, and going back to dirt), and other big dirt races?

A very large part of racing is about breeding, and we've been breeding dirt horses while Europe has been breeding turf horses. We breed and race the best dirt horses in the world. Europe breeds and races the best turf horses in the world. Why is it not logical to you that the best and toughest races in America are on dirt? Just as it's logical that Europe's best and toughest races are on turf? And isn't it logical that we're going to be bigger fans of the divisions that represent our best? So what makes you think there's something wrong with us liking and preferring our best?

[nijinski]

I'm asking purely out of curiosity, where would you put Invasor, Goldikova and Frankel if they where allowed on the list?

Goldikova and actually Ouija Board both voted Eclipse twice here .
They should be eligible lol . Superior mares , no doubt about it !

[iceknight]

I'm asking purely out of curiosity, where would you put Invasor, Goldikova and Frankel if they where allowed on the list? But then where do you add Sea the Stars, Galileo and some of the other top euro horses Invasor is S.American but that list was drawn up with American horses in mind.

I was doing favorites since I saw other people do it :blush: plus u don't win the breeders cup and earn 1.6 mil on hype and was retired due to sickness...I didn't include street sense because I saw Got it. :ThmbUp:

[Rex Phinney]

But then where do you add Sea the Stars, Galileo and some of the other top euro horses Invasor is S.American but that list was drawn up with American horses in mind.

The question was posed solely to thebigguy. While I appreciate your post I was really just interested in his opinion.

FWIW Invasor tops my list since 2000 to run in the US. It's why I haven't posted a top 10 and it's why I posed this question to thebigguy.

I think this list is hard to construct leaving out Invasor and Goldi

[Thebigguy]

I'm asking purely out of curiosity, where would you put Invasor, Goldikova and Frankel if they where allowed on the list?

Invasor no where. The other 2 are turf routers. I don't have 1 turf router listed.

[Thebigguy]

People love to bash Quality Road.....
How many horses all time won the Fountain of Youth, Fl Derby, Donn, Met Mile and Woodward???

[Rex Phinney]

People love to bash Quality Road.....
How many horses all time won the Fountain of Youth, Fl Derby, Donn, Met Mile and Woodward???

I can't get on the Quality Road train. He got beaten up his three year old summer by Summer Bird then the next year by Blame (both horses beat him twice). He did win the Woodward but the field he beat was not Woodward quality. He did awful both times he tried the classic. He never got any distance at all. He has a very nice resume, but it isn't top 10 good IMO.

[Rex Phinney]

Invasor no where.

I don't call him the most underrated horse of all time for nothing.

He won the last 6 races of his career:

All Grade 1
SIX different racetracks
4 of them going beyond nine furlongs
Dubai World Cup and BC Classic included

Won the Breeders Cup classic under an 18 YO jockey, and beat Bernardini

Won 11 of 12 lifetime starts, on THREE different continents, with 2 different trainers and 3 different jockeys.

His run in the Donn after being stopped near the quarter pole is for my money maybe a top 5 all time performance. No horse wins getting stopped like that.

[Fager Fan]

Invasor no where.

Not very logical to have Bernardini at #2 but "no where" for the horse who beat him on the square.

[Billnewman]

People love to bash Quality Road.....
How many horses all time won the Fountain of Youth, Fl Derby, Donn, Met Mile and Woodward???


Holy bull came close. The Donna was his last race when he pulled up. That's when the racing world became acquainted with a horse named cigar.

[dilanesp]

I don't call him the most underrated horse of all time for nothing.

He won the last 6 races of his career:

All Grade 1
SIX different racetracks
4 of them going beyond nine furlongs
Dubai World Cup and BC Classic included

Won the Breeders Cup classic under an 18 YO jockey, and beat Bernardini

Won 11 of 12 lifetime starts, on THREE different continents, with 2 different trainers and 3 different jockeys.

His run in the Donn after being stopped near the quarter pole is for my money maybe a top 5 all time performance. No horse wins getting stopped like that.

I love Invasor. I saw his BC win at Churchill. A dominant win over a stacked field. I won't say anything bad about that horse.

[Stillriledup]

People love to bash Quality Road.....
How many horses all time won the Fountain of Youth, Fl Derby, Donn, Met Mile and Woodward???

And ran a -7 on the Tgraphs. :ThmbUp:

[mutualwagerer]

So starting to notice people throwing out horses that are underrated on this thread, so anyone want to add to the thread and say who the most underrated horses are since 2000?

[dilanesp]

So starting to notice people throwing out horses that are underrated on this thread, so anyone want to add to the thread and say who the most underrated horses are since 2000?

Zenyatta, for reasons previously stated, is the most underrated horse in that period.

Beyond that, I think Game on Dude might be underrated. The problem is he's flopped twice in the BC Classic (he was unlucky to lose the first time). But he's won a ton of big races out here, and his 3rd Big Cap win was sublime (second fastest 1 1/4 miles on dirt in history, beating the 1-2 finishers in the BC Classic).

[Rex Phinney]

I love Invasor. I saw his BC win at Churchill. A dominant win over a stacked field. I won't say anything bad about that horse.

To me there is just something about a horse running on different continents, with different riders, trainers, whatever that sets them apart.

It leaves an impression that any time, any place they are going to get the job done.

6 Grade 1's at 6 different racetracks to end his career. That's epically good stuff.

Invasor is in my top 5 all time, and if non American breds were included here, he would top my list since 2000.

[Rex Phinney]

Zenyatta, for reasons previously stated, is the most underrated horse in that period.


She won horse of the year how can she be underrated???

I loved Zenyatta, but my mind refuses to discuss her anymore. It's just too much. Too much been there done that.

[dilanesp]

She won horse of the year how can she be underrated???

I loved Zenyatta, but my mind refuses to discuss her anymore. It's just too much. Too much been there done that.

She's underrated because there's an entire segment of the horse racing community that will never accept what she accomplished, because of their prejudice against synthetic tracks. (The biggest aspect of this is the argument that her BC Classic win doesn't count or was cheap because it was on a synthetic track-- as if a female winning that race over that field coming from last is made easy just by changing the track surface.)

[dilanesp]

To me there is just something about a horse running on different continents, with different riders, trainers, whatever that sets them apart.

It leaves an impression that any time, any place they are going to get the job done.

6 Grade 1's at 6 different racetracks to end his career. That's epically good stuff.

Agreed.

And take a look at the field he beat in the 2006 Classic:

2nd Bernardini
3rd Premium Tap
4th Giacomo
5th Brother Derek
6th George Washington
7th Lava Man
8th Perfect Drift
9th Lawyer Ron
10th Sun King
11th Flower Alley
12th Suave
13th David Junior

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I don't call him the most underrated horse of all time for nothing.

He won the last 6 races of his career:

All Grade 1
SIX different racetracks
4 of them going beyond nine furlongs
Dubai World Cup and BC Classic included

Won the Breeders Cup classic under an 18 YO jockey, and beat Bernardini

Won 11 of 12 lifetime starts, on THREE different continents, with 2 different trainers and 3 different jockeys.

His run in the Donn after being stopped near the quarter pole is for my money maybe a top 5 all time performance. No horse wins getting stopped like that.

Still can't believe Invasor went off at 7/1 in the Breeders Cup Classic in 2006.

He had won 6 G1s by that time and was on a 3 race win streak in which all 3 were G1s in the States leading up to that race.

[dilanesp]

Still can't believe Invasor went off at 7/1 in the Breeders Cup Classic in 2006.

He had won 6 G1s by that time and was on a 3 race win streak in which all 3 were G1s in the States leading up to that race.

One of the wonderful things about the BC is how it can produce overlays on good horses. (Manila, Very Subtle, Unbridled, Awesome Again, Tiznow, Invasor, Trinniberg, etc.)

[Fager Fan]

She's underrated because there's an entire segment of the horse racing community that will never accept what she accomplished, because of their prejudice against synthetic tracks. (The biggest aspect of this is the argument that her BC Classic win doesn't count or was cheap because it was on a synthetic track-- as if a female winning that race over that field coming from last is made easy just by changing the track surface.)

Prejudice: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Quit with the emotion-fueled language like prejudice and haters - that stuff isn't for adult discussion. People who don't like synthetic surfaces have very good reason for their dislike, one of which was the not-at-all-like-dirt-racing races that Zenyatta ran in. Unfortunately for you, Zenyatta can't be separated from that fact.

[dilanesp]

Prejudice: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Quit with the emotion-fueled language like prejudice and haters - that stuff isn't for adult discussion. People who don't like synthetic surfaces have very good reason for their dislike, one of which was the not-at-all-like-dirt-racing races that Zenyatta ran in. Unfortunately for you, Zenyatta can't be separated from that fact.

Non - prejudiced people CAN separate her. That's the point.

[Fager Fan]

Non - prejudiced people CAN separate her. That's the point.

Racehorses aren't separated from their performances except in the Zenyatta-colored realm of your mind.

[iceknight]

The question was posed solely to thebigguy. While I appreciate your post I was really just interested in his opinion.

FWIW Invasor tops my list since 2000 to run in the US. It's why I haven't posted a top 10 and it's why I posed this question to thebigguy.

I think this list is hard to construct leaving out Invasor and Goldi Got it. I see your point. Invasor, of course, is definitely underrated for all his achievements. I check out his Equibase charts (http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=6939800&registry=T) and he has stumbles, bobbles, or clips in several of his starts - where he ends up WINNING
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[taxicab]

I don't call him the most underrated horse of all time for nothing.

He won the last 6 races of his career:

All Grade 1
SIX different racetracks
4 of them going beyond nine furlongs
Dubai World Cup and BC Classic included

Won the Breeders Cup classic under an 18 YO jockey, and beat Bernardini

Won 11 of 12 lifetime starts, on THREE different continents, with 2 different trainers and 3 different jockeys.

His run in the Donn after being stopped near the quarter pole is for my money maybe a top 5 all time performance. No horse wins getting stopped like that.
And he was a Triple Crown winner....

[OntheRail]

Lots of fine horses mentioned I'll add Royal Delta... to the list.

[MargieRose]

If surface preference is nothing more than training, then why for 20+ years have those trainers in Europe not trained their horses to win the BC Classic, DWC (on dirt, and going back to dirt), and other big dirt races? Probably because they don't respect the surface like 3/4 of the racing world doesn't...you know, the majority!

A very large part of racing is about breeding, and we've been breeding dirt horses (of whom quite a few have been sent overseas and have excelled in the breading shed for turf racing...Sunday Silence, anyone? As well, many of our own dirt horses are proven turf sires: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred-breeding/sire-lists/turf) while Europe has been breeding turf horses. We breed and race the best dirt horses in the world. (We breed for speed; dirt is more conducive to bone-breaking speed.) Europe breeds and races the best turf horses in the world. (Europe breeds for stamina and distance; my preference, if I may have one.) Why is it not logical to you that the best and toughest races in America are on dirt? Just as it's logical that Europe's best and toughest races are on turf? (GREAT horses, which equals to great/tough racing, can, should and have excelled on both surfaces...Secretariat, Kelso, DR FAGER?) And isn't it logical that we're going to be bigger fans of the divisions that represent our best? So what makes you think there's something wrong with us liking and preferring our best? I don't think there is anything wrong with us liking and preferring our best. I just don't necessarily think our BEST only run on and should only be respected for having run on dirt to the extent that it is...ZENYATTA?!!!!

With respect to your namesake:

On September 1, in the United Nations Handicap at Atlantic City, Dr. Fager ran on the turf for the first and only time. Despite having never run on the grass, he was assigned 134 pounds -- giving 16 pounds to Fort Marcy (the grass champion from the previous year and, later, Horse of the Year) and Australian champion Tobin Bronze. Despite running on a surface of which he was unfamiliar and one that was wet and slick from rainfall, Dr. Fager fought head and head on the lead for the entire 1 3/16 mile distance, winning by a head over the solid grass performer, Advocator.

Dr. Fager was named Horse of the Year, champion sprinter, champion grass horse and champion older male -- the only horse in history to capture all four honors.

http://horseracing.about.com/library/bldrfager.htm

To reiterate: DIRT IS NOT the be-all, end-all of great racing, even in THIS COUNTRY, if one can simply dump the prejudice!!

[Fager Fan]

With respect to your namesake:

On September 1, in the United Nations Handicap at Atlantic City, Dr. Fager ran on the turf for the first and only time. Despite having never run on the grass, he was assigned 134 pounds -- giving 16 pounds to Fort Marcy (the grass champion from the previous year and, later, Horse of the Year) and Australian champion Tobin Bronze. Despite running on a surface of which he was unfamiliar and one that was wet and slick from rainfall, Dr. Fager fought head and head on the lead for the entire 1 3/16 mile distance, winning by a head over the solid grass performer, Advocator.

Dr. Fager was named Horse of the Year, champion sprinter, champion grass horse and champion older male -- the only horse in history to capture all four honors.

http://horseracing.about.com/library/bldrfager.htm

To reiterate: DIRT IS NOT the be-all, end-all of great racing, even in THIS COUNTRY, if one can simply dump the prejudice!!

Another person who doesn't know how to debate a topic without the childish idea that someone is "prejudiced" if they don't agree with them.

I fully realize Fager won on turf. Not that it matters in this conversation.

Our best horses, best fields, and best races are on the dirt. That's what we breed, and that's where we excel, and we have the best dirt horses in the world. You can tell yourself that our turf horses are the best in the world but you'd just be lying to yourself. There's a reason why we usually get our ass handed to us in the BC turf races by Europeans, and why Europeans who don't cut it in Europe can come here and take our biggest races.

Dirt IS the be-all, end-all in American racing. Go raise your European flag elsewhere.

[mutualwagerer]

Another person who doesn't know how to debate a topic without the childish idea that someone is "prejudiced" if they don't agree with them.

I fully realize Fager won on turf. Not that it matters in this conversation.

Our best horses, best fields, and best races are on the dirt. That's what we breed, and that's where we excel, and we have the best dirt horses in the world. You can tell yourself that our turf horses are the best in the world but you'd just be lying to yourself. There's a reason why we usually get our ass handed to us in the BC turf races by Europeans, and why Europeans who don't cut it in Europe can come here and take our biggest races.

Dirt IS the be-all, end-all in American racing. Go raise your European flag elsewhere.

Sadly you are true turf racing just isn't popular in the US the way it is basically everywhere else in the World. Every time you see a European bred horse on the turf here and you are handicapping that horse almost automatically gets a +. Its just a given that America doesn't have turf racing at the same level as what dirt is. Can anyone name 5 big time turf races throughout the year in the states? Not to mention there is a reason why all the great turf sires are in Europe as opposed to here. The only great turf sire that comes to mind was sunday silence and the US wanted nothing to do with him.

[dilanesp]

Racehorses aren't separated from their performances except in the Zenyatta-colored realm of your mind.

Zenyatta' s BC Classic win was one of the greatest performances in American racing history by a female. I'm not the one separating her from that.

[Fager Fan]

Zenyatta' s BC Classic win was one of the greatest performances in American racing history by a female. I'm not the one separating her from that.

I beg to differ. I think her Classic runner-up was a far superior race by her.

[Fager Fan]

Sadly you are true turf racing just isn't popular in the US the way it is basically everywhere else in the World. Every time you see a European bred horse on the turf here and you are handicapping that horse almost automatically gets a +. Its just a given that America doesn't have turf racing at the same level as what dirt is. Can anyone name 5 big time turf races throughout the year in the states? Not to mention there is a reason why all the great turf sires are in Europe as opposed to here. The only great turf sire that comes to mind was sunday silence and the US wanted nothing to do with him.

No one would've thought SS would be a turf sire, though. The reason breeders didn't care for him was his pedigree and looks. As for current turf sires, Kitten's Joy and War Front are doing well. Interestingly, the former is doing better on the track and the latter is doing better in the sales ring. I wonder if War Front won't eventually make his home in Europe. Departing is his lone graded stakes winner on dirt, I think, and if he doesn't get some more dirt runners, his sales could start slipping here.

I don't find it sad that turf racing isn't as popular here. I like our dirt racing. We have it pretty good here, really, as we have dirt and turf racing. Europe only has turf (and synthetics at some of their lower-level tracks).

[MargieRose]

Another person who doesn't know how to debate a topic without the childish idea that someone is "prejudiced" if they don't agree with them.

I fully realize Fager won on turf. Not that it matters in this conversation.

Our best horses, best fields, and best races are on the dirt. That's what we breed, and that's where we excel, and we have the best dirt horses in the world. You can tell yourself that our turf horses are the best in the world but you'd just be lying to yourself. There's a reason why we usually get our ass handed to us in the BC turf races by Europeans, and why Europeans who don't cut it in Europe can come here and take our biggest races.

Dirt IS the be-all, end-all in American racing. Go raise your European flag elsewhere.

It is YOU sir/madam who is the child in this debate! Not only do you not understand my point/opinion, you put words into my mouth and then resort to insults while defending yours. I don't respect narrow-minded people...Am DONE with you!