Tunnel systems

[magwell]

A example of what Hamas does with the money given to them, they build tunnels to go kill people not schools and hospitals for the betterment of their people, this is so sad to see............

[tucker6]

A example of what Hamas does with the money given to them, they build tunnels to go kill people not schools and hospitals for the betterment of their people, this is so sad to see............
I would love to know what percentage of our foreign aid actually goes toward meaningful assistance of the local populace. With all the skimming of the larder, it would be a wonder if it comes to 20%.

[Clocker]

they build tunnels to go kill people

They also build tunnels under their border with Egypt to smuggle in weapons, rockets, and building materials to build more tunnels.

[Tom]

The only actions towards Hamas is violence - kill them on site, always,
No time outs, no cease fires, 100% war and GD the collateral damage. The words of Hamas is worthless. They are murdering dogs, sub humans. Anyone who allows them in the are is the same. Israel should remember how WWII was won - fire bombing and nukes.

Then do it.

Enough pretending Hamas will ever do anything but try to kill them.
Purge the world of Hamas.

[tucker6]

Hamas were terrorists when Bin Laden was having wet dreams about becoming a terrorist. Kill 'em all and salt the earth afterwards.

[magwell]

Golda Meir said years ago, Israel has a secret weapon in their war with the Arabs, and that is, we have no alternative, we have no place to go........

[DRIVEWAY]

The only actions towards Hamas is violence - kill them on site, always,
No time outs, no cease fires, 100% war and GD the collateral damage. The words of Hamas is worthless. They are murdering dogs, sub humans. Anyone who allows them in the are is the same. Israel should remember how WWII was won - fire bombing and nukes.

Then do it.

Enough pretending Hamas will ever do anything but try to kill them.
Purge the world of Hamas.

Nukes
GD the collateral damage

Do you really mean this?

[Tom]

Nukes
GD the collateral damage

Do you really mean this?

No time outs, no cease fires, 100% war and GD the collateral damage.

Yes. Would you continue to allow your neighbor to fire rockets at you?

[DRIVEWAY]

Yes. Would you continue to allow your neighbor to fire rockets at you?

Would you use nukes? Are you saying YES?

[Tom]

YOU said nukes, I did not.
Using nukes across the street from your house would be stupid.

Now, IRAN, that is another story.
I have favored nuking them for decades.

[hcap]

YOU said nukes, I did not.
Using nukes across the street from your house would be stupid.

Now, IRAN, that is another story.
I have favored nuking them for decades.I seem to remember you favored nuking the civilians in Iraq when they were not so grateful a few short months after the "coalition of the willing " invaded :lol:

[DRIVEWAY]

Israel should remember how WWII was won - fire bombing and nukes.

Then do it.



Now it's clear that you didn't say anything about nukes.

[Tom]

That was how WWII was won.
And neither Dresden nor Hiroshima was across the street from us.

What is YOUR solution to the Hamas animals?
And the enabling Palestinians?

[Tom]

I seem to remember you favored nuking the civilians in Iraq

RIF....again, not across the street from us.
Collateral damage is not so good when it included you.

[Native Texan III]

Poor old Tom.
Still sucking up all the right wing, racist propaganda he can get hold of.
Never any thought for a sustainable solution other than violence.
Never any thought as to what the real truth might be.
Just hatred.
He should joining the front line or even Hamas if they really are that violent.

[Tom]

The real truth?
Hamas hide among civilians and launches rockets into Israel.
THEY keep breaking the cease fires.

What part of that has you confused?

[PhantomOnTour]

I am for a Palestinian state, but until they get up from under Hamas they will never get up from under Israel.
Period

[Tom]

As a people they are not the brightest bunch.
Throwing rocks at armed soldiers, letting Hamas infiltrate their neighborhoods....maybe this is natural selection at work.

[JustRalph]

I am for a Palestinian state, but until they get up from under Hamas they will never get up from under Israel.
Period

Exactly right. This is the most significant fact or event in the last 30 years. As long as Hamas Governs the area, never be a solution. Btw, half of the war doesn't want a solution. They see only one solution, death to Israel. Hard to negotiate with Hamas

[newtothegame]

http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cartoon_550/images/Foden20140728-Cease%20Fire.jpg

Saw this cartoon and thought it fit appropriately.

http://cnsnews.com/cartoons/glenn-foden/ceasefire

[fast4522]

Poor old Tom.
Still sucking up all the right wing, racist propaganda he can get hold of.
Never any thought for a sustainable solution other than violence.
Never any thought as to what the real truth might be.
Just hatred.
He should joining the front line or even Hamas if they really are that violent.

Your sustainable solution is there should be less Tom's who don't take sides or a position. Your propaganda is no better than the next guy's, because we are not there. The real truth is there is no Palestine, it is finished and as long as Iran continues to send hate, rockets and arms to those poor people who are the ultimate suckers in the conflict there will be death. The people who live in the Gaza Strip are fighting for Palestine inside Israel when they send rockets into Israel, the more war that you bring to Israel the more Palestine dies. Today we have an administration that abandons our ally's, tomorrow has yet to come.

[davew]

are tunnels that bad if they start in schools and hospitals?

[Tom]

The worst.
It says those who dug them have no regard for the Palestinian lives.
We are dealing with sub-humans here.
Human rats.

[Clocker]

are tunnels that bad if they start in schools and hospitals?

The UN runs some schools in Gaza. They found that Hamas had rockets stored in one of those schools. So the UN turned those rockets over to the government authorities: Hamas.

[Clocker]

Never any thought for a sustainable solution other than violence.
Never any thought as to what the real truth might be.


There is no sustainable solution with Hamas other than violence. The two sides agreed to a 72 hour humanitarian cease fire starting Friday to allow people in Gaza to get food, medical aid, etc. Hamas violated the cease fire after 90 minutes.

[fast4522]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33

[fast4522]

A stand up message from a stand up guy.



http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/jon-voight-pens-letter-ignorant-723007

[Tom]

Let's fire rockets into Penelope's back yard day in day out see if the bitch gets it.

You can't fix stupid.

[fast4522]

http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cartoon_550/images/Foden20140728-Cease%20Fire.jpg

Saw this cartoon and thought it fit appropriately.

http://cnsnews.com/cartoons/glenn-foden/ceasefire


Supports your post.


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/08/01/barack-obama-and-john-kerry-carried-out-most-historic-strategic-blunder-in/

[Clocker]

Just in case there is the slightest doubt in anyone's mind about the utter uselessness of the U.N., here is the final straw (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/31/UN-Condemns-Israel-s-Latest-War-Crime-Not-Sharing-Iron-Dome-with-Hamas).

The U.N. is accusing Israel of war crimes because Israel won't share its Iron Dome technology with Hamas.

Among the UN’s long bill of particulars against the beleaguered Jewish state comes the almost unbelievable accusation that Israel’s refusal to share its Iron Dome ballistic missile defense shield with the "governing authority" of Gaza – i.e. Hamas, the terror group created to pursue the extermination of the Jewish state and now waging a terrorist war against it – constitutes a war crime against the civilians of Gaza.

Since the US provides foreign aid to Israel, some of it targeted for the Iron Dome, there is talk that we might also be guilty of war crimes for not subsidizing a defense system for Hamas.

[Tom]

I make a motion that we start lobbing rockets at the UN.
When do we wake up, quit the stupid waste of time and kick thier asses out of NYC?

The League of Loser Nations.....Put all of the members together and they make up about 33 states. Countries? :lol: :lol: give me a break. You are not a country when you can't defend yourselves or feed your people. You might be a lodge...... :D

[Clocker]

You are not a country when you can't defend yourselves or feed your people. You might be a lodge...... :D

Or maybe they could be a community, if they only had an organizer. :p

[TJDave]

I make a motion that we start lobbing rockets at the UN.
When do we wake up, quit the stupid waste of time and kick thier asses out of NYC?

It is estimated that the UN contributes over 3 billion per year to NYC's economy.

Plus, in the event of a terrorist attack the UN building would make a nifty bomb shelter. ;)

[Greyfox]

It is estimated that the UN contributes over 3 billion per year to NYC's economy.



Probably true.

In the meanwhile the U.S. spends billions more funding the U.N.

Why not just do away with it and give 3 billion to NY?

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/316577/how-much-does-un-cost-us-brett-d-schaefer

[Clocker]

Why not just do away with it and give 3 billion to NY?



I'm guessing that $3 billion number is the gross spending contribution to the NYC economy. Hard to tell how much of that is trickling down into the city coffers to pay for infrastructure, police, etc., dedicated to the UN.

[fast4522]

I make a motion that we start lobbing rockets at the UN.
When do we wake up, quit the stupid waste of time and kick thier asses out of NYC?

The League of Loser Nations.....Put all of the members together and they make up about 33 states. Countries? :lol: :lol: give me a break. You are not a country when you can't defend yourselves or feed your people. You might be a lodge...... :D

I don't know what to do about the rockets end of the post, but I am confident the New York stock exchange and everyone else would be better off without that carload of idiots in New York. Perhaps it is a better idea making stinging statements without crossing into end of days. Your support of Israel is unquestioned and admired at least by me.

[classhandicapper]

IMO there is no solution to this problem on the current path!

The Palestinians (and much of the rest of the Arab world) will always and forever feel that the land was unjustly taken, promised to the Jews due to all the antisemitism around the world, and ultimately given to the Jews by the Brits and Americans via the UN which drove Palestinians from their homes and put a massive Jewish immigration into motion. IMO a two state solution can never settle that problem unless the Palestinians so are so beaten to a pulp they can't take it anymore. Otherwise, they will always feel they are fighting for homes that were unjustly taken away. That kind of passion will never go away.

The alternative would be a one state solution that they share, but that's a non starter for the Jews because the demographics will eventually favor the Palestinians and the Jews would lose control.

IMO there is no sensible course of action other than perhaps trying to improve the economic situation of the Palestinians to the point they are less concerned about "country and land" and more concerned about sustaining their economic well being. At that point they could be granted more freedom to move around and might not care enough to fight and die. That's not going to happen when they are locked down in extreme poverty and angry as all hell.

[dartman51]

IMO there is no solution to this problem on the current path!

The Palestinians (and much of the rest of the Arab world) will always and forever feel that the land was unjustly taken, promised to the Jews due to all the antisemitism around the world, and ultimately given to the Jews by the Brits and Americans via the UN which drove Palestinians from their homes and put a massive Jewish immigration into motion. IMO a two state solution can never settle that problem unless the Palestinians so are so beaten to a pulp they can't take it anymore. Otherwise, they will always feel they are fighting for homes that were unjustly taken away. That kind of passion will never go away.

The alternative would be a one state solution that they share, but that's a non starter for the Jews because the demographics will eventually favor the Palestinians and the Jews would lose control.

IMO there is no sensible course of action other than perhaps trying to improve the economic situation of the Palestinians to the point they are less concerned about "country and land" and more concerned about sustaining their economic well being. At that point they could be granted more freedom to move around and might not care enough to fight and die. That's not going to happen when they are locked down in extreme poverty and angry as all hell.


They could take a lesson from the American Indian. They learned to deal with it.

[TJDave]

They could take a lesson from the American Indian. They learned to deal with it.

The problem with that is that the American Indian didn't have sponsors.

Had it been just Israel vs. Palestine it would have been over before lunch.

[Tom]

They could take a lesson from the American Indian. They learned to deal with it.


They should build "Gazinos" on the "strip."
Buy your chips at the "West Bank."

ba dum.

[Marshall Bennett]

What's amazing is that Hamas uses it's people, woman and children, as human sacrifice and yet there are those in western cultures, including our on, that continue to support them. It's sickening.

[classhandicapper]

They could take a lesson from the American Indian. They learned to deal with it.

I would say that what happened to the Indians qualifies as being beaten to a pulp.

I have no ax to grind on this issue.

My feeling is that terrorism is always the wrong strategy. There's no way you are ever going to win the hearts and minds of the public killing innocent people. Even if you have some legitimate beefs, it's self destructive behavior. The Palestinian strategy is idiotic. It's so idiotic Israel couldn't do a better job of planning it themselves.

If I was a Palestinian full of anger and hate because I thought the world screwed my people etc... my strategy would be to openly declare to the world I would never accept a two state solution and then explain why. I'd declare I wanted a one state solution with both sides free and safe within the borders and protected by international forces. I'd try to get the demographics on my side.

Assuming the world would tell me to go "F" myself (which it certainly would now given that the Palestinians are seen as crazy), I would then continue the fight by only attacking military targets and the political leadership of Israel. That way I could continue the fight, but without exposing myself to backlash for the terrorist bombings of innocent citizens. You could do that indefinitely while screaming to the world every time Israel did anything that might contribute to world sympathy for the Palestinians. All the while you could continue working towards a one state solution with Palestinians seen as a reasonable majority.

If I was Israel, I'd try to expand economic ties with the Palestinians for things like food, water, medicine, and other essentials. Once you get them back on their feet, there's at least some small hope the anger and hate might dissipate. From there, you expand it further and eventually economics outweigh other factors and the area becomes freer, which in turn moves the chain further.

Maybe I'm naive, but IMO what both sides are doing now is idiotic and will never work.

[Clocker]

If I was Israel, I'd try to expand economic ties with the Palestinians for things like food, water, medicine, and other essentials. Once you get them back on their feet, there's at least some small hope the anger and hate might dissipate. From there, you expand it further and eventually economics outweigh other factors and the area becomes freer, which in turn moves the chain further.


Israel can't expand economic ties with Gaza because Hamas is the government there. Israel and Egypt are enforcing a land, air, and sea blockade of Gaza to prevent the movement of terrorists in and out of the country, and to prevent the import of materials to build tunnels and the smuggling of rockets and other weapons.

[classhandicapper]

Israel can't expand economic ties with Gaza because Hamas is the government there. Israel and Egypt are enforcing a land, air, and sea blockade of Gaza to prevent the movement of terrorists in and out of the country, and to prevent the import of materials to build tunnels and the smuggling of rockets and other weapons.

That may be the case now, but this has been going on for decades and will probably continue long after I am gone unless the approach is changed on both sides. The problem has a 0% chance of being solved now. I'd rather at least shoot for 5%.

For example, those same blockades are probably also preventing food, water, medicine, and other essential items from coming in. So along with materials for weapons, they are also smuggling in life's essentials.

I'd be lobbing rockets too if my kids were sick and starving and I didn't really understand all the geopolitics.

How is this approach going to work?

There has to be a way to get the humanitarian aid in, improve relations with the people, while working towards getting some of the lunatics out of power. This has to move in a positive direction an inch at a time for 10-20 years to get anywhere.

[Tom]

Hard to have respect or sympathy for people that elected terrorists.
They made their beds, now they can lie in them.

As far as Israel goes, "whatever it takes."

[dkithore]

IMO there is no solution to this problem on the current path!

The Palestinians (and much of the rest of the Arab world) will always and forever feel that the land was unjustly taken, promised to the Jews due to all the antisemitism around the world, and ultimately given to the Jews by the Brits and Americans via the UN which drove Palestinians from their homes and put a massive Jewish immigration into motion. IMO a two state solution can never settle that problem unless the Palestinians so are so beaten to a pulp they can't take it anymore. Otherwise, they will always feel they are fighting for homes that were unjustly taken away. That kind of passion will never go away.

The alternative would be a one state solution that they share, but that's a non starter for the Jews because the demographics will eventually favor the Palestinians and the Jews would lose control.

IMO there is no sensible course of action other than perhaps trying to improve the economic situation of the Palestinians to the point they are less concerned about "country and land" and more concerned about sustaining their economic well being. At that point they could be granted more freedom to move around and might not care enough to fight and die. That's not going to happen when they are locked down in extreme poverty and angry as all hell.

A sensible analysis. agree.

[GaryG]

As far as Israel goes, "whatever it takes."That they will do, regardless of the pronouncements from the Kenyan in the white house. They have no choice when they are surrounded by nations that want to destry them. You can bet some yahoo from Hamas will be at the WH seeking help against their "terrorist" enemy. Regarding Palestian prosperity, I don't see that as a factor. They have one goal, to get their land back....and they can't have it. Many years ago they were offered a slice of Jordan with maybe part of Syria as Nuevo Palestine. They were not interested. So....screw em.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm glad Israel finally took a hard-line stance against the people attacking them. I'm glad they didn't bend to the will of the rest of the world this time. I'm glad they didn't bend to those who outrageously accuse them of genocide...to those telling them to consider their history and equating what happened to them to what is happening to Palestinians. Most intelligent people can see through that garbage for what it is.

The simple fact is that what is going on there is what has gone on between nations and people throughout the ages. Only somehow, it's ALWAYS different every time it involves Israel, as they are the only ones asked to show restraint against those who attack them and wish to see them annihilated. It's bullshit and it's the only true hypocrisy of this story. Why should Israel show restraint?

They are the only country who is attacked multiple times throughout history, is victorious each time, but is asked to give back what they've won (in order to establish peace) despite NOT initiating the fight in the first place. It's ridiculous.

So this time, they aren't backing down and they are not bending over due to pressure coming from the bleeding heart nations (the US being one of them of course). This is a good thing.

[classhandicapper]

I'm glad Israel finally took a hard-line stance against the people attacking them. I'm glad they didn't bend to the will of the rest of the world this time. I'm glad they didn't bend to those who outrageously accuse them of genocide...to those telling them to consider their history and equating what happened to them to what is happening to Palestinians. Most intelligent people can see through that garbage for what it is.

The simple fact is that what is going on there is what has gone on between nations and people throughout the ages. Only somehow, it's ALWAYS different every time it involves Israel, as they are the only ones asked to show restraint against those who attack them and wish to see them annihilated. It's bullshit and it's the only true hypocrisy of this story. Why should Israel show restraint?

They are the only country who is attacked multiple times throughout history, is victorious each time, but is asked to give back what they've won (in order to establish peace) despite NOT initiating the fight in the first place. It's ridiculous.

So this time, they aren't backing down and they are not bending over due to pressure coming from the bleeding heart nations (the US being one of them of course). This is a good thing.

IMO it is this short term oriented hard line stance that creates successive generations of Palestinians that want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

IMHO, if the Palestinians were worried about their internet access, new cars, nice homes, small businesses, bank accounts etc.. instead of food, water, medicine, and life's essentials, they might be less inclined to provoke fights by lobbing bombs into Israel.

The argument I am making is similar to the one jokingly made about the Japanese and now the Chinese and Russians buying prime assets in the US. They are way less likely to bomb the US when they'd be destroying their own buildings, factories, and businesses. ;)

Even if I am wrong about everything, so far what they are doing is clearly not working. We are in an endless cycle of violence based on a perceived injustice against the Palestinians from decades ago and Israel's fight for survival against crazed terrorists that come to power because of the conditions there. You have to break that cycle.

[magwell]

Some body once said when they love their children more than they hate the Jews is when this ends...........how sad is that ?

[Tom]

Palestinians = Hamas.
No difference.

[Marshall Bennett]

Palestinians = Hamas.
No difference.
Try and compare Hamas with the Nazi Party. Germans believed the Nazi Party was the way to go in the early 30's. They believed Hitler would bring them out of the depression, put people back to work, and food on the table. For a few years he did, but then of course the rest is history.
The Palestinians thought Hamas was the way to go. They didn't support them thinking one day they'd use them and their children as shields and their schools, hospitals, ect. as launching pads while full of people.
What's sad is the civilians are taking the brunt of the casualty list, while Hamas forces remain relatively intact. Even Hitler, the monster he was, didn't use these tactics with his own people. His dealings with Jews is a separate issue unrelated to his military strategy.

[Tom]

Try and compare Hamas with the Nazi Party.
My thoughts exactly.

[PaceAdvantage]

IMO it is this short term oriented hard line stance that creates successive generations of Palestinians that want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.That is never going to change. Never. And there are plenty of other nations in the region who hold a similar mindset. Yet they stand by and do nothing to aid the Palestinians minus a few smuggled rockets and whatnot.

They don't help because 1) they know they risk massive retaliation by doing such and 2) they don't want to mess up the good thing they have going, ie rolling in the oil $$$$.

Given the circumstances, Israel isn't in such a bad position, minus the rocket attacks. And they've done a very good job (with US help no doubt) making sure such attacks are minimized via Iron Dome, plus fighting back in the only way that makes sense.

Creating successive generations of anti-Israel militants/terrorists is a given no matter what they do, short-term or long-term. It's the nature of the beast. It's impossible to avoid given how the region developed after WWII.

Showing that they aren't afraid to go hard at the criminal element in Gaza is a no-brainer. You can't allow the criminal element to be emboldened by allowing them to get away with what they were doing without serious repercussion.

[Tom]

Watching Netanyahu on TV last night.
Such a shame the US doesn't have a real leader like him.
We got an ass clown instead.

[GaryG]

Neighbors Iran, Syria and probably Egypt as well don't care about the Palestinians, who have become essentially the point man for the never ending hostility against Israel. Israel will continue to thrash the Arab countries variously, but they have the resolve to carry on to the desired destruction of their enemy. You know damn well that Israel has the resolve, so the beat goes on. It would take an Armageddon to end it, something that is within the realm of possibility. I don't understand why the liberal agenda is in favor of the downtrodden Palestinians. This is not a left-right issue but a right-wrong issue. I can say that because I know what is right.....:cool:

[Marshall Bennett]

In 1967 Israel had the capability to destroy and settle many of the disputes in the middle east, not only the Palestinian issue, but much of the Arab territories. Egypt at the time was their biggest concern and they took out their air force and any threat in 6 days including reclaiming Gaza. Other allies of Egypt including Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon would have been a cake walk.
The U.N. and particularly the United States has always pressured Israel to make peace with these immoral scumbags and thus has always been the case even following conflicts. It's too late to assume Israel will ever have this advantage again without our help. The longer the story there lingers, the better equipped and the stronger the element of terrorist sanctioned support goes into the equation for their enemies.
Americans, particularly liberals, would be happy for us to ignore the entire Arab/Israel situation and phase out entirely any military involvement in the middle east. Our military under Obama is shrinking in size. Liberal Democrats and Obama have little or no interest outside our borders.
Eventually the Middle East will be a full blown cluster fk and a humanitarian disaster. It's happening now. When we're eventually forced to get involved we'll suffer 10 fold over what we would now.
Most Americans don't realize how serious the situation truly is there. Just like the Midas man says..." pay me now or pay me later ". It certainly applies here for sure.

[classhandicapper]

Creating successive generations of anti-Israel militants/terrorists is a given no matter what they do, short-term or long-term. It's the nature of the beast. It's impossible to avoid given how the region developed after WWII.



I disagree.

There are always going to be unreasonable people in the world that won't respond to kindness, fairness, justice, reason etc.... in a positive way. That's something the idealists (usually on the left) never grasp. There ARE bad people in the world and a lot of them are Palestinian.

However, IMO, most people respond positively to positive actions and negatively to negative actions. So the idea is to create a policy that both protects Israel in the short term, but improves the conditions of the Palestinians while doing it. IMO that will move the chain in a positive direction for both an inch at a time for decades.

I say this in all honesty. I'm a reasonable guy. If I was a Palestinian living in the conditions in Gaza, I'd probably be plotting how to kill Israeli military forces and political leaders. But I'd be easy to turn. I think most Palestinians want what you and I want. But in conditions like that, hate, anger, and violence will grow and grow.

[Marshall Bennett]

Palestinians, in particular those with power, will never be satisfied till they reclaim Israel. Much like native Americans, only with a lot of international support, organization, and more importantly, more heart.
The only solution in terms of peace is to remove them, because Israel will never go down without what would surely be a world war.

[PaceAdvantage]

I say this in all honesty. I'm a reasonable guy. If I was a Palestinian living in the conditions in Gaza, I'd probably be plotting how to kill Israeli military forces and political leaders. But I'd be easy to turn. I think most Palestinians want what you and I want. But in conditions like that, hate, anger, and violence will grow and grow.What's the root cause, in your opinion, of the living conditions in Gaza?

[classhandicapper]

What's the root cause, in your opinion, of the living conditions in Gaza?

It's way way outside my range to do a thorough analysis on the problems there. I can only speak in general terms about the way people behave.

In general I would say these are some of the things in no special order:

1. Much of the Arab world is playing catch up to the west economically and socially. IMO the Palestinians are backwards (at least by our standards) and have terrible leadership and direction.

2. The Palestinians have had no real voice in the international community even though it's starting to grow (anyone that watched Charlie Rose last night can attest to that). Generally though, they are dismissed unless there is violence in the region. As soon as violence picks up the world suddenly starts paying attention again. So they very foolishly see violence as a way to address their grievances.

3. The propensity for Palestinians to use violence and terrorism to address their grievances makes them a security risk to Israel. So Israel is fully justified in responding. However, IMHO, some of the responses like expanding further into their territory, putting up blockades that deprive them of food, water, medicine, and life's essentials etc... are counter productive long term from Israel's perspective because they leave the Palestinians in even worse shape, more hateful, and more likely to be violent in an endless loop.

[Tom]

Civilization skipped the Palestinians.
Their living conditions are a result of their actions.
They are not worth sympathy. They get what they deserve.

Israel has been far too easy on them.

[fast4522]

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is obviously well liked here by some, an Israeli politician who had no other option but to rise to the occasion for his people. Necessity is said to be the mother of invention, thus necessity has a profound impact in the shape of an Israeli politician unlike The United Sates politician's. Sometimes the correct picture adds depth.

[cj's dad]

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is obviously well liked here by some, an Israeli politician who had no other option but to rise to the occasion for his people. Necessity is said to be the mother of invention, thus necessity has a profound impact in the shape of an Israeli politician unlike The United Sates politician's. Sometimes the correct picture adds depth.

Well done Fast-

The US has entered full force into the hip-hop generation- We are so cool that we have a black pres. - A clueless POS that is running our country?

God helps us all !!!

[Clocker]

A clueless POS that is running our country?

God helps us all !!!

The clueless part is correct, but I would object to the term "POS". It implies that he knows what he is doing, that he has a plan, and that he has the competence to get it done.

He is still the clueless child seen in the picture above. Does that looks like a POS, or like a Gen-X slacker overly impressed with himself and trying to pretend he is a grown up? Blame the voters who gave him the keys to the car and sat by while he destroyed it with crashes and no maintenance.

[fast4522]

Perhaps comparisons of politician's is straying from the tunnel systems a bit, Prime Minister Netanyahu is uniquely qualified to compare Hamas with the Nazi Party or not. Maybe such comparisons are uncalled for, we as Americans use the term Nazi too often when talking of those we do not favor. The construction of those Hamas tunnel systems would have any Israeli troubled, Prime Minister Netanyahu in particular I think because of his background.

[Tom]

Netty is more of an American than Obama is.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was reading an article in the NYT today http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/israel-supporters-try-to-come-to-terms-with-killing-of-children-in-gaza-strip.html?_r=1 that discussed the mounting casualties in Gaza, especially children.

While Israelis overwhelmingly support the current military action, even some of their staunch supporters are voicing serious concern for the number of children being killed, even while the majority still see that as an unavoidable casualty of war.

My question is: why did Hamas instigate this newest conflict knowing full well a serious response by Israel would result in scores of civilian casualties? What did they hope to achieve by lobbing rockets into Israel, knowing full well most of them would fail to hit their intended targets, and fail to cause any serious casualties among Israelis? It just doesn't make sense on any level.

If Hamas were anything like their supporters claim them to be, instead of attacking Israel, they would have been crying out on the world stage for a diplomatic solution to their problems. Hamas and those who "elected" them are proving to be nothing more than barbarians who have evolved little over the last couple of thousand years. They only know one thing, apparently. And when this one thing is turned around and thrown back at them, they look around at the destruction and blame Israel...the whole thing is tragic and utterly ridiculous at the same time.

[Clocker]

My question is: why did Hamas instigate this newest conflict knowing full well a serious response by Israel would result in scores of civilian casualties? What did they hope to achieve by lobbing rockets into Israel, knowing full well most of them would fail to hit their intended targets, and fail to cause any serious casualties among Israelis? It just doesn't make sense on any level.

Hamas is waging a war of terror and public relations. Terror disrupts Israeli life and they hope to encourage Israeli opposition to their leadership about the war. Publicity gets Hamas donations from the big rich Arab supporters, millions of dollars they need to wage the war of terror and to prop up their government.

Hamas uses civilians to try to deter Israeli attacks, and for publicity if they do attack. Israel has been dropping leaflets and otherwise publicizing up-coming attacks, and Hamas has been encouraging civilians to stay. Hamas also locates leaders and weapons in civilian areas, including in or near schools and hospitals, to deter attacks.

NY Times story. (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/middleeast/by-phone-and-leaflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?ref=middleeast)

[classhandicapper]

My question is: why did Hamas instigate this newest conflict knowing full well a serious response by Israel would result in scores of civilian casualties? What did they hope to achieve by lobbing rockets into Israel, knowing full well most of them would fail to hit their intended targets, and fail to cause any serious casualties among Israelis? It just doesn't make sense on any level.



I already answered that question.

1. Living conditions are atrocious in Gaza

2. When living conditions are atrocious, very extreme people often come to power.

3. When extremists like Hamas gain power as a result of the conditions, they will resort to whatever tactics they believe will advance their agenda and get the world's attention. In this case violence since they have no diplomatic voice.


IMO this is a no brainer. The only way you have any chance to break this cycle without a full out purge of the Palestinians is to improve the living conditions of the Palestinians. That means you start with food, water, medicine, and life's basic essentials and slowly move forward towards trade. When economic conditions improve, some of the people (hopefully many) will be more concerned with sustaining and improving their lives and less concerned with lost land, killing people they view as oppressors etc....

Who is legally right and who has the superior moral position is a side show. The main event is FIXING IT. The world can either take a positive path or 30 years from now we'll be discussing chemical attacks, biological attacks, dirty bombs, use of nuclear weapons etc... The only 100% certainty in this is that it will NEVER end on the current path.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Reverse sanctions. The UN would probably love it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I already answered that question.

1. Living conditions are atrocious in Gaza

2. When living conditions are atrocious, very extreme people often come to power.

3. When extremists like Hamas gain power as a result of the conditions, they will resort to whatever tactics they believe will advance their agenda and get the world's attention. In this case violence since they have no diplomatic voice.


IMO this is a no brainer. The only way you have any chance to break this cycle without a full out purge of the Palestinians is to improve the living conditions of the Palestinians. That means you start with food, water, medicine, and life's basic essentials and slowly move forward towards trade. When economic conditions improve, some of the people (hopefully many) will be more concerned with sustaining and improving their lives and less concerned with lost land, killing people they view as oppressors etc....

Who is legally right and who has the superior moral position is a side show. The main event is FIXING IT. The world can either take a positive path or 30 years from now we'll be discussing chemical attacks, biological attacks, dirty bombs, use of nuclear weapons etc... The only 100% certainty in this is that it will NEVER end on the current path.So what you're basically advocating, is the reward of terrorist actions.

That will go over well, I'm sure...

[tucker6]

I was reading an article in the NYT today http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/israel-supporters-try-to-come-to-terms-with-killing-of-children-in-gaza-strip.html?_r=1 that discussed the mounting casualties in Gaza, especially children.

While Israelis overwhelmingly support the current military action, even some of their staunch supporters are voicing serious concern for the number of children being killed, even while the majority still see that as an unavoidable casualty of war.

My question is: why did Hamas instigate this newest conflict knowing full well a serious response by Israel would result in scores of civilian casualties? What did they hope to achieve by lobbing rockets into Israel, knowing full well most of them would fail to hit their intended targets, and fail to cause any serious casualties among Israelis? It just doesn't make sense on any level.

If Hamas were anything like their supporters claim them to be, instead of attacking Israel, they would have been crying out on the world stage for a diplomatic solution to their problems. Hamas and those who "elected" them are proving to be nothing more than barbarians who have evolved little over the last couple of thousand years. They only know one thing, apparently. And when this one thing is turned around and thrown back at them, they look around at the destruction and blame Israel...the whole thing is tragic and utterly ridiculous at the same time.
IMO, you sort of answered your own question. Hamas was getting no traction in negotiations and were losing support, so decided they needed to negotiate from a different playing surface. They then created a war knowing full well that children would die, but hoped it would change the balance in their negotiations to an extent to make those human losses more acceptable in the long run. A gamble indeed.

[classhandicapper]

So what you're basically advocating, is the reward of terrorist actions.

That will go over well, I'm sure...

I agree that it would be a terrible idea if it was perceived as a reward for a terrorist attack.

I think you could do it as part of some peace process like we've already had in the past. But instead of arguing the 67 borders, East Jerusalem, settlements, 2 state solutions, security, terrorist attacks, etc.... you make humanitarian aid, economic development, trade agreements for essential items etc.. part of a plan that also contemplates security. Then every 5-10 years you come back to the table and expand the agreements. IMO 30 years from now those really hot issues won't seem so hot if you are a middle class Palestinian.

[fast4522]

I was reading an article in the NYT today http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/israel-supporters-try-to-come-to-terms-with-killing-of-children-in-gaza-strip.html?_r=1 that discussed the mounting casualties in Gaza, especially children.

While Israelis overwhelmingly support the current military action, even some of their staunch supporters are voicing serious concern for the number of children being killed, even while the majority still see that as an unavoidable casualty of war.

My question is: why did Hamas instigate this newest conflict knowing full well a serious response by Israel would result in scores of civilian casualties? What did they hope to achieve by lobbing rockets into Israel, knowing full well most of them would fail to hit their intended targets, and fail to cause any serious casualties among Israelis? It just doesn't make sense on any level.

If Hamas were anything like their supporters claim them to be, instead of attacking Israel, they would have been crying out on the world stage for a diplomatic solution to their problems. Hamas and those who "elected" them are proving to be nothing more than barbarians who have evolved little over the last couple of thousand years. They only know one thing, apparently. And when this one thing is turned around and thrown back at them, they look around at the destruction and blame Israel...the whole thing is tragic and utterly ridiculous at the same time.

Sometimes a very basic answer fits the best:

They are not really the brightest bunch are they? Their logic is eventually the stars will line up in their favor, but they are too stupid a people to understand that they will always be sold out. The Bilderberg Group view of those who can not be controlled should be dead, and because that group believes in limiting overall population on this planet to a set number that we have already exceeded by four billion people don't expect any country to side with them who is not on the shit list.

[Tom]

They can use those tunnels to go back to Hell, where they came from and where they belong. The sooner Israel sends them there, the better.

[newtothegame]

I already answered that question.

1. Living conditions are atrocious in Gaza

2. When living conditions are atrocious, very extreme people often come to power.

3. When extremists like Hamas gain power as a result of the conditions, they will resort to whatever tactics they believe will advance their agenda and get the world's attention. In this case violence since they have no diplomatic voice.


IMO this is a no brainer. The only way you have any chance to break this cycle without a full out purge of the Palestinians is to improve the living conditions of the Palestinians. That means you start with food, water, medicine, and life's basic essentials and slowly move forward towards trade. When economic conditions improve, some of the people (hopefully many) will be more concerned with sustaining and improving their lives and less concerned with lost land, killing people they view as oppressors etc....

Who is legally right and who has the superior moral position is a side show. The main event is FIXING IT. The world can either take a positive path or 30 years from now we'll be discussing chemical attacks, biological attacks, dirty bombs, use of nuclear weapons etc... The only 100% certainty in this is that it will NEVER end on the current path.
Class, I admire your thought process, But, let me add that I think this has been tried before. When "aid" was allowed in, it became a path for some of the things that Israel fears like weapons smuggling etc etc.
This was, as I understand, the reason for it all being shut down. Now, Hammas uses tunnels to get in weapons. If Hammas really wanted to help and obtain peace, couldn't they use the tunnels to smuggle in medicine and other real "aids"? Then they would seriously look like heroes on the world stage.

You see, although I admire your post and thoughts, Hammas does NOT want peace or co-existence. They only use the Palestinians (civilians) to further a public outcry when children inadvertently die in the resulting war. Once the world is outraged, and Israel trying to be a respected country backs down, it only furthers Hammas and the fanatics running Gaza.

How much more humane can Israel be then to PRE warn the Palestinians, ask them to leave, and be as cautious as possible when strategic bombing? Until Hammas is ELIMINATED, there will never be peace.

But, I do understand how elimination is also nearly impossible as more terrorist become homegrown by what they perceive as injustice.

[Tom]

Israel should occupy the Gaza Strip - that way they can control things there.
If the Palestinians don't like it, tough.

[fast4522]

Gee Tom your a nice guy, if it were up to me I would evict them completely from the Gaza Strip. Being Americans we are not vested and what we say means nothing. Conversely the Prime Minister says what he means, and means what he says so we expect them to move fast upon that mans words.

[TJDave]

Being Americans we are not vested and what we say means nothing.

We give Israel over 3 billion a year. We're vested.

[fast4522]

. . . . . .Says the gypsy


Go ahead draw a line into the sand, even a dictator will laugh his ass off out loud. The fate of that nation rests on those born in Israel to decide when they will move and on who.

[newtothegame]

We give Israel over 3 billion a year. We're vested.

And how much do we give Egypt, Pakistan? etc etc?? :lol:

[TJDave]

About half as much.

[newtothegame]

About half as much.

Then that would explain our lack of being vested there!!! :bang:

[TJDave]

Then that would explain our lack of being vested there!!! :bang:

We are. Not so much in Pakistan but Egypt has been working for the company ever since they sacked their last president.

[classhandicapper]

If Hammas really wanted to help and obtain peace, couldn't they use the tunnels to smuggle in medicine and other real "aids"? Then they would seriously look like heroes on the world stage.



They have been using those tunnels to smuggle in medicine etc.. But they will also continue to smuggle in bombs until the nit wits are out of power. IMO you won't get the nitwits out of power until the conditions are much better. The conditions can't get better when they are blockaded without any trade and help with economic development.

It's a tough situation. That's why no progress has been made in decades. The only hope is doing something differently. We already know what we've been doing so far doesn't work.

[Tom]

Once again, the infinite wisdom for the US - give to both sides and wonder why there are problems.

Give 4.5 billion to Israel and sit back.

[magwell]

Hamas asking for 10 billion to reload...........:confused: