English Triple Crown VS. American Triple Crown

[RacingFan1992]

Both seem very difficult for different reasons.

[OTM Al]

English Triple is much more difficult. Longer period to have to maintain form, differences in distances, and the fact that the St Leger is not considered a good prep for the big fall races

[cj]

English Triple is much more difficult. Longer period to have to maintain form, differences in distances, and the fact that the St Leger is not considered a good prep for the big fall races

Because the Belmont Stakes is? Just saying...

[mostpost]

English Triple Crown
1. Greater difference in distances; from A mile to a mile and a half to a mile and three quarters.
2. More time from start to finish of the series which requires the horse to stay at the top of his game for a longer period of time, but also gives him more time to recover between races.

American Triple Crown
1. Distances grouped within in two and a half furlongs.
2. All races run within 5 weeks.

The American Triple Crown has been won eleven times since 1919. The last being in 1978.
The English Triple Crown has been won fourteen times since 1809, The most recent being in 1970-Nijinsky.

Since Sir Barton won the first American Triple Crown there have been two English Triple Crown winners.

My vote will be for the English Triple Crown, but I could see a case for either one.

[mostpost]

Because the Belmont Stakes is? Just saying...
I think the difference is that the Belmont comes in early June giving a horse ample time to prepare for shorter races in the fall. Whereas the St. Leger being at a mile and three quarters and 127 yards and being run in September means that a horse faces a much more difficult task in preparing for races such as the Breeders Cup Classic or even the BC Turf.

[OTM Al]

Because the Belmont Stakes is? Just saying...

Yes, but winners of the first two legs here will not skip the third, but English horses have.

[RacingFan1992]

Here is a shock to most trainers. They should have the Kentucky Oaks at a 1 1/4 mile and the black-eyed susan stakes at 1 3/16 all carrying 126. Consider the Belmont the St. Leger carrying 121 against the colts. I doubt people will consider this configuration.

[thespaah]

Couple thoughts/questions. All horsemen please chime in..
Because it is cooler in the UK, is not the breeding season different? Are not horses foaled later in the calendar year, say in April thru July as opposed to here in the US where foals drop from Feb thru May?
Is it also true that European horses are still bred with distance in mind as opposed to a strong focus on speed here in the US?

[RacingFan1992]

Couple thoughts/questions. All horsemen please chime in..
Because it is cooler in the UK, is not the breeding season different? Are not horses foaled later in the calendar year, say in April thru July as opposed to here in the US where foals drop from Feb thru May?
Is it also true that European horses are still bred with distance in mind as opposed to a strong focus on speed here in the US?
Funny that you mention that. Look at how many horse who have won the Triple Crown have a strong British/French influence.

[RacingFan1992]

The whole concept of paying $10,000,000 to the winner of a 6 furlong sprint and paying the winner of a 2 mile race with a $50 Wal-Mart gift card is the down fall of racing. While breeding in Great Britain may be for stamina the stud value of a stayer drops because foreign interest such as the U.S. want something that only goes two feet before it drops. For Shame.:(

[Tom]

I think 9 furlongs is far beyond the capabilities of most horses.

[cj]

Yes, but winners of the first two legs here will not skip the third, but English horses have.

Right, but that doesn't make it harder, just less desirable. If it carried the same prestige, it most likely would have been won a few times since the last.

[OTM Al]

Right, but that doesn't make it harder, just less desirable. If it carried the same prestige, it most likely would have been won a few times since the last.

It is so hard to even win the first two legs it really doesn't matter much. I looked this up a while ago so I'm not sure if this is exactly right but since 1970 I think only 4 even won the first two. Two tried, Camelot was the last, and two didn't, Sea the Stars, who probably could have won the Leger, but then he was exceptional, was the last. A horse has to be a top quality miler, middle distance runner and stayer to win this thing. In the US the horse only need be a top middle distance runner (in the European parlance). IMO Afleet Alex was the last US runner who should have won the whole thing

[Seabiscuit@AR]

You cannot compare the two

As soon as the winner crosses the line in the Kentucky Derby everyone asks "can he win the Triple Crown?"

With the English Triple Crown nobody really attempts it so it is not in the public consciousness at all. When Camelot went for it most people seemed to have forgotten it even existed until they got a reminder

[nijinski]

They are waiting for another Nijinsky ! He even gave a bold effort in
The Arc . :)

[tucker6]

A better question is whether people believe the distances in the English TC prevent more winners of that TC. A horse whose wheelhouse is 8F is likely not winning or even entering a 12F or 14F race, and vice versa. Not sure the English crown is very winnable just on that alone. I wonder how many horses per year actually run in all three.

[horses4courses]

The English TC is not in the plans of most colts of that caliber.

It's potentially too grueling a race not that far ahead of the biggest prize
in Europe - the Arc. The Irish Champion Stakes at Leopardstown is run
around the same time at 10 furlongs. It has older horses, but I believe
that it's more valuable. Purse-wise and for stud value.

The St. Leger at Doncaster in September just doesn't figure in their calendars.

The US Triple Crown is just as difficult to win, but for different reasons.
You could argue, also, that it's the only TC with modern relevance.
The English version has long since passed it's prime.

[Fager Fan]

The English TC is not in the plans of most colts of that caliber.

It's potentially too grueling a race not that far ahead of the biggest prize
in Europe - the Arc. The Irish Champion Stakes at Leopardstown is run
around the same time at 10 furlongs. It has older horses, but I believe
that it's more valuable. Purse-wise and for stud value.

The St. Leger at Doncaster in September just doesn't figure in their calendars.

The US Triple Crown is just as difficult to win, but for different reasons.
You could argue, also, that it's the only TC with modern relevance.
The English version has long since passed it's prime.

The best answer I've read.

[nearco]

The big differences between the two, besides distances and spacing, is that English TC races are stand alone races which are targeted by horses that have no intention of running in the other races and are often specialist at those distances.

Nobody starts out the year pointing at the Preakness or Belmont and planning on skipping the KY Derby. The horses that didn't run in the Derby and do in the Preakness are horses that didn't make the Derby cut or were injured or late maturing and weren't ready for Derby. Same with the Belmont. Had they been ready or made the cut they would have been in the Derby. Tonalist would have run in the Derby had he not been injured early on in the year.

The English TC on the other hand starts with the 2000 Guineas which is usually full of horses that will never be targeted at the Derby or other 12f races, i.e these horses are pure milers. Likewise the Derby will be full of horses that are out and out middle distance horses that will never be targeted at mile races and had no intention of running in the 2000 Guineas. Same goes for the St Leger, lots of out and out stayers. It's akin to going to the Olympics and trying to win the 100m, the 400m and the 1500m.

[nearco]

The English TC is not in the plans of most colts of that caliber.

It's potentially too grueling a race not that far ahead of the biggest prize
in Europe - the Arc. The Irish Champion Stakes at Leopardstown is run
around the same time at 10 furlongs. It has older horses, but I believe
that it's more valuable. Purse-wise and for stud value.

The St. Leger at Doncaster in September just doesn't figure in their calendars.

The US Triple Crown is just as difficult to win, but for different reasons.
You could argue, also, that it's the only TC with modern relevance.
The English version has long since passed it's prime.

The St Leger as a standalone Classic race may be a modern irrelevance (in that sense it is not that different from the Belmont in a year with no TC on the line, where the field is often made up of donkeys), but the English TC itself isn't. So few horses win the first two legs that running in the St Leger is a moot point 99% of the time.

Plenty of horses have won the Guineas and finished down the field in the Derby. A good few Derby winners have run in the Guineas but didn't win (this year's winner being an example).
It is very hard to win the first two legs alone, that adding the third leg if you had the chance would be quite an achievement. Compare that to the US TC where loads of horses have run in and won the first two legs.

But when a horse does manage to win the first two legs, then there is usually quite a buzz about about a possible TC attempt. There was disappointment when Sea the Stars skipped the Leger (though very understandable that he would, as his trainer had doubts he would stay 12f, let alone 14.5f). There was big excitement about Camelot's attempt (and in retrospect he may have been robbed of his place in the history books when it came out 6 months later that Encke was one of the horses that had been given steroids by Al Zarooni... though obviously he didn't test positive post race, but he had been on them earlier in the year, and residual effect of steroids can last past testing threshold).

[Dark Horse]

You would have to pinpoint what makes each so difficult.

As far as the American TC. The first two races aren't the problem. It's the Belmont. And I don't think it's necessarily the distance. Going by the fact that not a single TC winner didn't have at least two starts at Belmont prior to the Belmont Stakes, I would be inclined to think that the biggest obstacle is lack of familiarity with that long sweeping turn.

[nearco]

It is a tough comparison.
So many horses win the first two legs of the US TC.
Every KY Derby winner ships to Pimlico. When Spend A Buck didn't, that was a massive big deal. When they get to Pimlico they face a much smaller, and often weakened field, in comparison to the Derby, because a lot of the main Derby contenders skip the race. So you get a lot of years with a TC on the line at Belmont.

Compare to the English TC. Many, probably most, 2000 Guineas winners do not go on to race in the 2nd leg, the Derby. When they do, they will run into a field that can be up the 25 runners, many of whom have been prepped/pointing specially at the Derby since they were 2yos and have been bred to run 12f.

Of the last 25 winners of the 2000 Guineas, 11 have gone on to run in the Derby, only two have managed to win the Derby
1990 -----------
1991 Mysticko 10th
1992 Rodrigo de Triano 12th
1993 -----------
1994 Master Baileys 4th
1995 Pennekamp 11th
1996 -----------
1997 Entrepeneur 4th
1998 king of Kings 15th
1999 -----------
2001 Golan 2nd
2002 -----------
2003 Refuse to Bend 13th
2004 -----------
2005 -----------
2006 -----------
2007 -----------
2008 -----------
2009 Sea the Stars 1st
2010 -----------
2011 -----------
2012 Camelot 1st
2013 Dawn Approach 13th
2014 -----------

In the same time frame, every KY Derby winner has run in the Preakness and 11 have won the Preakness and gone to Belmont with a TC on the line, a 44% strike rate.

[RacingFan1992]

You could easily make a race configuration in the United States similar to the English Triple Crown. Shadwell Turf Mile at Keeneland, Breeders' Cup Turf at Santa Anita or where ever, and the San Juan Capistrano at Santa Anita. If turf horse who can win all three could be a shoe in for champion turf horse.

[Capper Al]

How much American money goes to the Euro Triple Crown? Not much, I'd guess.