Art Sherman Considering PA Derby as Breeders' Cup Prep for California Chrome

[Overlay]

http://www.foxsports.com/horse-racing/story/report-california-chrome-targets-pennsylvania-derby-for-return-072414

[thespaah]

Ducking the Travers and Haskell.
Nice.

[devilsbag]

Ducking the Travers and Haskell.
Nice.

Any three-year-old who skips the Haskell or Travers on the way to the Breeders' Cup Classic is a cheater. This is the coward’s way out.

[Matt Bryan]

Ducking the Travers and Haskell.
Nice.


I'm sure he's just trying to be fair to the horses in the Haskell and Travers, that haven't had a long rest.

[thespaah]

I'm sure he's just trying to be fair to the horses in the Haskell and Travers, that haven't had a long rest.
Sarcasm?

[Mineshaft]

Any three-year-old who skips the Haskell or Travers on the way to the Breeders' Cup Classic is a cheater. This is the coward’s way out.




They cant dance every dance with the horse. This is a good spot for the horse. The Breeders Cup in my opinion is a bad spot for the horse. I would give him more time off but thats just me.

[letswastemoney]

No way he could be ready for the Haskell anyway, considering he was idle for weeks with no training.

Nothing wrong with Pennsylvania Derby.

[Mineshaft]

No way he could be ready for the Haskell anyway, considering he was idle for weeks with no training.

Nothing wrong with Pennsylvania Derby.




yep i agree perfect spot

[DRIVEWAY]

CC was in continuous training/racing since his two yr old debut. After the Belmont they announced their intention to take a well deserved break and return in the fall with the Breeders Cup as the main objective.

CC is a multiple graded/Grade(1) stakes winning thoroughbred at multiple race tracks. Returning at PARX would be an opportunity for the summer heros to plan on meeting him.

CC is not dodging anyone.

[Mineshaft]

Hes sticking with 3 yr olds and trying to make some more money before he faces older horses. They are doing the right thing with the horse in giving him some time off and still facing 3 yr olds. Horse has been managed beautifully. Now the owners of this horse is a different story.

[Matt Bryan]

Sarcasm?

Yep.

[Rex Phinney]

They already went across country with him once this year. If they are going to do it again (which they shouldn't) it should be for the Travers.

Don't fool yourself, the prep race the horse belongs in is the Awesome Again at Santa Anita. It's a short van ride from training, on the same track as the BC, and leaves him plenty of time to get ready.

Pennsylvania Derby makes no sense, until of course you consider the elephant in the room.

That elephant's name starts with Shared and ends with Belief.

[BlueShoe]

Only one prep? That is not the way I would go. It is six weeks from the Penn Derby to the BC. One race after 3 1/2 months off and then another 6 week gap? Find another race for him 2 or 3 weeks before the BC in October and put some more bottom on him. He will be going 1 1/4 miles against the very best older horses, and needs to be dead fit to beat them. If not, he gets thumped.

[Mineshaft]

They already went across country with him once this year. If they are going to do it again (which they shouldn't) it should be for the Travers.

Don't fool yourself, the prep race the horse belongs in is the Awesome Again at Santa Anita. It's a short van ride from training, on the same track as the BC, and leaves him plenty of time to get ready.

Pennsylvania Derby makes no sense, until of course you consider the elephant in the room.

That elephant's name starts with Shared and ends with Belief.





Disagree 100% Why tackle Shared Belief in CC's 1st start off the layoff? Makes no sense to do that. The horse is a good shipper and it makes sense. I can also see them running in the Super Derby at La Downs.

[Mineshaft]

My bad i thought the race at Parx was in August.

I also think he needs 2 preps before the BC

[Rex Phinney]

My bad i thought the race at Parx was in August.

I also think he needs 2 preps before the BC

They could run him in the 1 Mile El Cajon Stakes for 3YO at Del Mar the last Friday in August then the Awesome Again Sept. 27

That gives him two prep races for the BC but gives him the first one in a very easy spot, and doesn't give a matchup with Shared Belief until the second prep.

Perry Martin already said they would like to try the Awesome Again because it offers entry fees paid to the BC. Sherman said they might run at Los Al. Of course all of this was before Hollendorfer put Shared Belief into the biggest race of the summer out here for older horses.

Now they are talking about races 2,500 miles away.

[iceknight]

http://www.foxsports.com/horse-racing/story/report-california-chrome-targets-pennsylvania-derby-for-return-072414
I live in Pennsylvania and I approve of this. Heck, I had a minor role in this happening.

haters from NJ and NY are always trying bring down the best tracks on... ok ok, jk guys..

I think from the CC's prep schedule this is good. Travers would be tough for a comeback. It would be interesting to see which preps against olders they would try before BC? I guess we will have to wait till Sep 20 to see that

[dilanesp]

I said before that I doubt that California horsemen like Sherman think that the Travers is a particularly important race.

But having said this, I get the feeling these guys think their horse is a lot better than he is. He's going to be facing a bunch of strong, seasoned older horses in the Breeders' Cup Classic. There's no reason to think they can just waltz right in with this horse and win.

If he isn't ready to run 3 or 4 races in the fall, lay him up, miss the Breeders' Cup, and start prepping for the winter and spring. He'll still win the 3 year old championship unless Tonalist wins the Breeders' Cup Classic. But this idea that you can just throw him in one powder puff prep race and go in the BC is crazy. He will get his behind handed to him.

If he's fit, they should be running him in tough races and getting him ready, period.

[Mystic]

I live in Pennsylvania and I approve of this. Heck, I had a minor role in this happening.

haters from NJ and NY are always trying bring down the best tracks on... ok ok, jk guys..

I think from the CC's prep schedule this is good. Travers would be tough for a comeback. It would be interesting to see which preps against olders they would try before BC? I guess we will have to wait till Sep 20 to see that

Do tell.

[Stillriledup]

Ducking the Travers and Haskell.
Nice.

The horse ran in all 3 legs of the TC, he's not a "ducker" sort and the connections don't seem to shy away from a challenge....if they were, they would have skipped the Ky Derby.

[Rex Phinney]

The horse ran in all 3 legs of the TC, he's not a "ducker" sort and the connections don't seem to shy away from a challenge....if they were, they would have skipped the Ky Derby.

Things change. Now they have the Derby and Preakness winner. It is possible they see things differently now than they did then. Losing at this point only speeds up the expiration of their 15 minutes of fame. They have won all they need to win to gain the spotlight, the question now is, are they overconfident in the horse and run him over his head? Do they stall in order to ensure he doesn't get beat? Or maybe neither and they handle the horse perfect?

[taxicab]

One prep race before the Breeders Cup for CC (or any other horse ) that was dead fit before a slight freshening (45 days on the farm) will be enough.
Horses don't lose their fitness in such a short amount of time.
CC only having one prep before the Classic is not a problem.
As far as Shared Belief is concerned, I'd like to see him beat a decent horse before going gaga over him.

[Rex Phinney]

As far as Shared Belief is concerned, I'd like to see him beat a decent horse before going gaga over him.

I'll bet CC connections feel the same way.

That being said, my bet is they won't pick a race for him until after August 24th. That's when Shared Belief gets his chance to send the world gaga over him, and if he does, Sherman is already setting up to go to Pennsylvania.

Shared Belief is the 2YO champ. It's not like he has never faced good horses.

[Smarty Cide]

i always get a kick out of the people who jump on any chance to spew negative garbage toward this horse. I hope he just keeps shoving up everyones ass. a nice BC classic win would be sweet.

[Smarty Cide]

One prep race before the Breeders Cup for CC (or any other horse ) that was dead fit before a slight freshening (45 days on the farm) will be enough.
Horses don't lose their fitness in such a short amount of time.
CC only having one prep before the Classic is not a problem.
As far as Shared Belief is concerned, I'd like to see him beat a decent horse before going gaga over him.

shared belief - lol Getdafukoudahere

[taxicab]

I'll bet CC connections feel the same way.

That being said, my bet is they won't pick a race for him until after August 24th. That's when Shared Belief gets his chance to send the world gaga over him, and if he does, Sherman is already setting up to go to Pennsylvania.

Shared Belief is the 2YO champ. It's not like he has never faced good horses.

The only conventional dirt stakes winner Shared Belief has ever beat is Candy Boy........certainly not a world beater.

Here are the horses that have run second to SB in his races.

Candy Boy (twice).
Ourwestcoastghost.
Kobe's Back.
Time Jumper.

This is not a strong bunch in any way,shape, or form.

[mostpost]

They already went across country with him once this year. If they are going to do it again (which they shouldn't) it should be for the Travers.

Don't fool yourself, the prep race the horse belongs in is the Awesome Again at Santa Anita. It's a short van ride from training, on the same track as the BC, and leaves him plenty of time to get ready.

Pennsylvania Derby makes no sense, until of course you consider the elephant in the room.

That elephant's name starts with Shared and ends with Belief.
It also makes sense if you consider that the Pennsylvania Derby is $1,000,000 race, while the Awesome Again is worth $500,000. Do you really think it would be a good idea to put California Chrome against Shared Belief in CC's first race after three and a half months off?

[Smarty Cide]

It also makes sense if you consider that the Pennsylvania Derby is $1,000,000 race, while the Awesome Again is worth $500,000. Do you really think it would be a good idea to put California Chrome against Shared Belief in CC's first race after three and a half months off?


good point, but i just dont think shared belief playing into chrome's connections plans. Chrome is looking at the big picture as in racing horses who won races that matter in november

[gheuks]

The horse ran in all 3 legs of the TC, he's not a "ducker" sort and the connections don't seem to shy away from a challenge....if they were, they would have skipped the Ky Derby.

AMEN!!

[Rex Phinney]

The only conventional dirt stakes winner Shared Belief has ever beat is Candy Boy........certainly not a world beater.

Here are the horses that have run second to SB in his races.

Candy Boy (twice).
Ourwestcoastghost.
Kobe's Back.
Time Jumper.

This is not a strong bunch in any way,shape, or form.

It's not like they have run away from competition though. He is undefeated in 5 career starts and done it pretty much tackling the toughest races available to him at the time. This trend will continue with the Pacific Classic.

I'm not putting anyone down, I'm a huge California Chrome fan, I'm just saying his best form this year is most likely passed. The same cannot at all be said for Shared Belief.

[Rex Phinney]

good point, but i just dont think shared belief playing into chrome's connections plans. Chrome is looking at the big picture as in racing horses who won races that matter in november

You might want to save that comment until November actually arrives. If Shared Belief wins the Pacific Classic. He will be the first from this crop to beat older horses in Stakes company. He will be on CC connections radar then I assure you.

[chadk66]

I'm sure they are paying them some show up and race money to lure them there. he'll bring in a ton of additional revenue for the track.

[thespaah]

The horse ran in all 3 legs of the TC, he's not a "ducker" sort and the connections don't seem to shy away from a challenge....if they were, they would have skipped the Ky Derby.
I don't buy that....The TC is a quest for greatness. It is an event all unto itself. A totally different issue than regular events.

[Tom]

He didn't get the job done in the TC, now he takes the low road.
Nothing wrong with that, make some money, but forget the crap about greatness and champion. The PA Derby is not top shelf stuff.

[Redboard]

I'm sure they are paying them some show up and race money to lure them there. he'll bring in a ton of additional revenue for the track.
Not to mention a boost for PA racing whose purse supplements are now under attack by the legislature. I am estatic hearing this news. I attend the PA derby every year and having the derby winner show up is almost beyond belief. Still, I
'll believe it when I see it. The article quotes the trainer, not either of the owners.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

i always get a kick out of the people who jump on any chance to spew negative garbage toward this horse. I hope he just keeps shoving up everyones ass. a nice BC classic win would be sweet.

The other side of the coin is for those of us who knew CC was iffy in the Belmont and made some good dough - the victory a bit sweeter with all the undue fawning by the masses. I won't argue that some maybe were shooting their mouth's off dissing the horse, but it wasn't nearly at the volume of the CC fanboys like MadScientist and SecretAgentMan.

If California Chrome rolls in the PA Derby, he'll be a huge underlay and corresponding Bet Against in the Breeder's Cup....

[Manila]

Don't forget CC is eligible for $100,000 for both the owner and the trainer if he runs in the PA Derby, per the race condtions, if he runs in the race. May be another reason to consider the race.

[tanner12oz]

There's more to shipping across the country then simply prepping for bc

[PaceAdvantage]

Penn Derby?

Who knew losing the Belmont was that big a blow to the confidence level of team CC?

[Smarty Cide]

Penn Derby?

Who knew losing the Belmont was that big a blow to the confidence level of team CC?


was waiting on a negative comment from cc's biggest fan... took ya long enough ;)

[alhattab]

Don't forget CC is eligible for $100,000 for both the owner and the trainer if he runs in the PA Derby, per the race condtions, if he runs in the race. May be another reason to consider the race.

This has to be a consideration. Connections may have also floated the idea as leverage over SA to pony up some sort of bonus/appearance money or boost the purse in some fashion (e.g., horses that have one X G1 races get a bonus of Y). My own view is that the ship across country for the purse + bonus makes a lot of sense for a horse that is unlikely to be anywhere near the finish against this group of older horses in the BC Classic. Doubt the connections share my sentiments and if they do not and are taking the Classic seriously then I agree w/other posters shipping x-country 5 weeks before the Classic makes no sense.

[Smarty Cide]

This has to be a consideration. Connections may have also floated the idea as leverage over SA to pony up some sort of bonus/appearance money or boost the purse in some fashion (e.g., horses that have one X G1 races get a bonus of Y). My own view is that the ship across country for the purse + bonus makes a lot of sense for a horse that is unlikely to be anywhere near the finish against this group of older horses in the BC Classic. Doubt the connections share my sentiments and if they do not and are taking the Classic seriously then I agree w/other posters shipping x-country 5 weeks before the Classic makes no sense.


i love how he loses 1 mile and a half race with a chunk ripped out of his foot at the starting gate and all of a sudden he isnt a contender. he is the best 3 year old in the country at the classic distance bar none.... BAR NONE

we'll see about the older horses when he gets there, sure will be fun to watch

[PaceAdvantage]

i love how he loses 1 mile and a half race with a chunk ripped out of his foot at the starting gate and all of a sudden he isnt a contender. he is the best 3 year old in the country at the classic distance bar none.... BAR NONE

we'll see about the older horses when he gets there, sure will be fun to watchWhy wouldn't the best 3yo in the country "bar-none" be pointing to the Penn Derby? Guess these guys don't like the big races anymore?

[cj]

I don't really see a problem with a horse that was heavily campaigned through the Triple Crown coming back in a somewhat easier spot.

[Smarty Cide]

I don't really see a problem with a horse that was heavily campaigned through the Triple Crown coming back in a somewhat easier spot.

well said but haters gonna hate you know how that goes...

[PaceAdvantage]

Do you have a problem with this being his one and only prep for the BC Classic?

[PaceAdvantage]

well said but haters gonna hate you know how that goes...I'm just imitating you with regards to SI

[cj]

Do you have a problem with this being his one and only prep for the BC Classic?

If I was a fan of the horse I would, because I would be shocked if he can win the BC with that campaign. But as a bettor, I don't really care, he'll be overbet anyway.

(I know that wasn't directed at me)

[Smarty Cide]

Do you have a problem with this being his one and only prep for the BC Classic?


if he came out of Belmont perfectly healthy and the went to the PA derby then yes id be scratching my head. If that was the case the Haskell was the obvious place to go. But under the current circumstances I have no problem. Lets get to the Classic one way or the other and see what happens he wont be anywhere near the 100% lock like he was at the derby so im sure we'll get better odds and value on him. if thats the way one chooses to bet.



as far as your social inclusion comment im not sure what you mean? I did like social inclusion a lot but have since cooled on him. I would like to try to convince myself he is gonna win the Haskell sunday at 8-1 but I just cant see it.


on a side note, anyone else find it totally obnoxious that the Haskell is a Sunday instead of a Saturday?

[dirty moose]

Any three-year-old who skips the Haskell or Travers on the way to the Breeders' Cup Classic is a cheater. This is the coward’s way out.

That gave me a chuckle

[cnollfan]

I don't really see a problem with a horse that was heavily campaigned through the Triple Crown coming back in a somewhat easier spot.

Plus it's $1,000,000. Whether one likes or dislikes CC, that doesn't qualify as ducking.

[Rex Phinney]

i love how he loses 1 mile and a half race with a chunk ripped out of his foot at the starting gate and all of a sudden he isnt a contender. he is the best 3 year old in the country at the classic distance bar none.... BAR NONE

we'll see about the older horses when he gets there, sure will be fun to watch

What others are keeping in mind is that by BC day things are going to be different. Tonalist for example is on track to run the Jim Dandy and the Travers. By August 23rd he could be riding a 4 race winning streak that includes G1 wins at 10 and 12 furlongs. I'd be hard pressed to call California Chrome the best 3YO "Bar None" if Tonalist is sitting there with that resume.

Shared Belief could very well come into the classic already having run twice against older horses.

Sounds like they will be bringing CC into a $5,000,000 event with 1 race in 5 months. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this but they have had about 10 different plans for the horse since the Belmont, none of which seemed very good to me.

It's time we be realistic, for me that starts with acknowledging the horse won the Kentucky Derby yes, great achievement kudos all around. Second though look again at the Preakness field and ask just how good it really was. Was it good enough that you could bet CC in the classic with just 1 race in 5 months?

[Smarty Cide]

What others are keeping in mind is that by BC day things are going to be different. Tonalist for example is on track to run the Jim Dandy and the Travers. By August 23rd he could be riding a 4 race winning streak that includes G1 wins at 10 and 12 furlongs. I'd be hard pressed to call California Chrome the best 3YO "Bar None" if Tonalist is sitting there with that resume.

Shared Belief could very well come into the classic already having run twice against older horses.

Sounds like they will be bringing CC into a $5,000,000 event with 1 race in 5 months. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this but they have had about 10 different plans for the horse since the Belmont, none of which seemed very good to me.

It's time we be realistic, for me that starts with acknowledging the horse won the Kentucky Derby yes, great achievement kudos all around. Second though look again at the Preakness field and ask just how good it really was. Was it good enough that you could bet CC in the classic with just 1 race in 5 months?

i guess it depends on his odds... and i agree with a lot of what your saying. but enough with this shared belief stuff... im so tired of hearing about this horse. I feel how Pace Advantage does about California Chrome except the horse i am negative on has never won the Kentucky Derby or anything that matters... Wish we could just do a California Chrome/ Shared Belief match race so Chrome wins by 20 and we can all stop talking about Shared Belief... Its starting to be like the wizard of oz - He won the derby and brought you the witches broom and you still want more... :D Its an insult to Chrome to compare him to Shared Belief.

[Rex Phinney]

[i guess it depends on his odds... and i agree with a lot of what your saying. but enough with this shared belief stuff... im so tired of hearing about this horse. I feel how Pace Advantage does about California Chrome except the horse i am negative on has never won the Kentucky Derby or anything that matters... Wish we could just do a California Chrome/ Shared Belief match race so Chrome wins by 20 and we can all stop talking about Shared Belief... Its starting to be like the wizard of oz - He won the derby and brought you the witches broom and you still want more... :D Its an insult to Chrome to compare him to Shared Belief.

When ever they do race, maybe, Martin and Coburn can take a picture with Jim Rome so they can get one with an eclipse award.

All indications are that Mike Smith chose this horse over Game on Dude. That's a pretty good endorsement.

I think I feel robbed that it's been this long with both of them out here in California and we haven't gotten to see them race each other. Shared Belief was so good in the Cash Call and now everyone has forgotten about him. Besides who doesn't like a comeback story.

[Smarty Cide]

i say let it happen in an epic breeders cup classic

[Rex Phinney]

i say let it happen in an epic breeders cup classic

I say make sure you put all your $$$ into the win pool on CC. Thanks.

[GaryG]

The Pacific Classic would seem logical, but the last I heared Shared Belief was going to be there. IMO Shared Belief would drown him. Better off in Philly.

[iceknight]

i guess it depends on his odds... and i agree with a lot of what your saying. but enough with this shared belief stuff... im so tired of hearing about this horse. I feel how Pace Advantage does about California Chrome except the horse i am negative on has never won the Kentucky Derby or anything that matters... Wish we could just do a California Chrome/ Shared Belief match race so Chrome wins by 20 and we can all stop talking about Shared Belief... Its starting to be like the wizard of oz - He won the derby and brought you the witches broom and you still want more... :D Its an insult to Chrome to compare him to Shared Belief. NO to Match Races

[Mineshaft]

I don't really see a problem with a horse that was heavily campaigned through the Triple Crown coming back in a somewhat easier spot.





Bingo we have a winner.


No reason to dance every dance as a 3 yr old especially if you want to run the horse as a 4/5 yr old. Its all about making as much as money as you can till you start facing older horses. Find the easiest spot for the horse and see what happens.

[Smarty Cide]

anyone else think the Shared Belief love fest is a little sickening?

[andtheyreoff]

anyone else think the Shared Belief love fest is a little sickening?

Pot meets kettle.

[Smarty Cide]

Pot meets kettle.


little different derby winner vs some horse named shared belief thats been the talk of the town and has no grade 1 wins. cc has 2

[Rex Phinney]

little different derby winner vs some horse named shared belief thats been the talk of the town and has no grade 1 wins. cc has 2

Cash Call Futurity is a Grade 1. We are talking about the 2YO champ here, not some allowance winner.

Get a grip. You only get to sit around and polish the Derby and Preakness trophies for so long before people start wondering if you are going to keep winning.

That time is coming for CC. When you have horses as good as Shared Belief and Tonalist who had to sit out the first half of the year, it's only right we wonder if maybe these horses will prove better.

[Smarty Cide]

Cash Call Futurity is a Grade 1. We are talking about the 2YO champ here, not some allowance winner.

Get a grip. You only get to sit around and polish the Derby and Preakness trophies for so long before people start wondering if you are going to keep winning.

That time is coming for CC. When you have horses as good as Shared Belief and Tonalist who had to sit out the first half of the year, it's only right we wonder if maybe these horses will prove better.


ok fair enough, your right, what i meant to say was 2 legs of the triple crown but anyway you slice it lets get it on... Should be a good classic. But thats where it should go down, not before then. More hype the better

[Hoofless_Wonder]

ok fair enough, your right, what i meant to say was 2 legs of the triple crown but anyway you slice it lets get it on... Should be a good classic. But thats where it should go down, not before then. More hype the better

Don't try to cheat us out of ragging on CC before the Breeder's Cup. If he falls flat in the PA Derby, he may not get there.

Personally, I hope this rather unremarkable Derby and Preakness winner stays healthy - he's got underlay potential for a few races, especially those at SA....

[taxicab]

From the top:
CC was going on the shelf for a bit win/lose/draw after the Belmont, so he wasn't going in the Haskell or Travers no matter what.
The horse had a very long 2/3yo campaign,they had to rest him.
How many other 3yo. in recent years ran as often as CC ?
It's not ducking when you're doing what's best for the horse.
The Penn. Dy is fine.
It's a million dollar race and it's 6 weeks away from the Breeders Cup.....if that's the time frame trainer Sherman wants for his horse so be it.
I haven't seen him make any mistakes with this horse yet,so it's not a stretch to assume he has it right........again.
BTW, didn't last years 3yo Champion run in the Penn. Derby ?
How did Will Take Charge do in the BC Classic ?
And Rex I wouldn't be so quick to assume that CC is going to tail off the second half of this year.
You have no way of knowing that.
Just like I have no way of knowing if he's going to be better.
Horses as good as this one don't suddenly lose their ability.
There's a reason why this horse smoked every other 3yo until the Belmont.....he's that good.

[Smarty Cide]

From the top:
CC was going on the shelf for a bit win/lose/draw after the Belmont, so he wasn't going in the Haskell or Travers no matter what.
The horse had a very long 2/3yo campaign,they had to rest him.
How many other 3yo. in recent years ran as often as CC ?
It's not ducking when you're doing what's best for the horse.
The Penn. Dy is fine.
It's a million dollar race and it's 6 weeks away from the Breeders Cup.....if that's the time frame trainer Sherman wants for his horse so be it.
I haven't seen him make any mistakes with this horse yet,so it's not a stretch to assume he has it right........again.
BTW, didn't last years 3yo Champion run in the Penn. Derby ?
How did Will Take Charge do in the BC Classic ?
And Rex I wouldn't be so quick to assume that CC is going to tail off the second half of this year.
You have no way of knowing that.
Just like I have no way of knowing if he's going to be better.
Horses as good as this one don't suddenly lose their ability.
There's a reason why this horse smoked every other 3yo until the Belmont.....he's that good.


and if he dont lose a chunk off his foot out the gate he wins belmont with ease

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Lets get to the Classic one way or the other and see what happens he wont be anywhere near the 100% lock like he was at the derby so im sure we'll get better odds and value on him. if thats the way one chooses to bet.


He was a 100% lock in a 19 horse field?

I don't care how damn good a horse is, in a 19 horse field there is no lock. Ever.

Chrome had an incredible run and came up short in the Belmont like a number of other great horses. He is a champion colt. I have mad respect for what he has done over the past year.

Now, he is looking to take on the very best of the best. While he got a deserving rest, will he be ready to take on his elders in horses like Palace Malice or Will Take Charge who are much bigger and (now) better horses with true pedigrees to get 10 Furlongs, and more?

PM and WTC are horses that get better every time they go out. They get stronger, and are seasoned vets that are a very important year older.

Even if CC were to get back to his previous form, his Derby and Preakness races aren't good enough to win the Classic. He has to get better than those peak performances.

While we have seen a number of 3YOs win the Classic, they have all come from classic distance breeding: Raven's Pass, Curlin, Tiznow, Cat Thief, Concern, AP Indy, Sunday Silence, and Proud Truth.

Will CC be the horse to break that "pedigree" thing like he did in the Derby and do the same in the Classic? Maybe. But if the intention is the BC Classic, this is certainly an odd way of travel to get there if he does indeed run in the Pennsylvania Derby.

[Mineshaft]

From the top:
CC was going on the shelf for a bit win/lose/draw after the Belmont, so he wasn't going in the Haskell or Travers no matter what.
The horse had a very long 2/3yo campaign,they had to rest him.
How many other 3yo. in recent years ran as often as CC ?
It's not ducking when you're doing what's best for the horse.
The Penn. Dy is fine.
It's a million dollar race and it's 6 weeks away from the Breeders Cup.....if that's the time frame trainer Sherman wants for his horse so be it.
I haven't seen him make any mistakes with this horse yet,so it's not a stretch to assume he has it right........again.
BTW, didn't last years 3yo Champion run in the Penn. Derby ?
How did Will Take Charge do in the BC Classic ?
And Rex I wouldn't be so quick to assume that CC is going to tail off the second half of this year.
You have no way of knowing that.
Just like I have no way of knowing if he's going to be better.
Horses as good as this one don't suddenly lose their ability.
There's a reason why this horse smoked every other 3yo until the Belmont.....he's that good.






Finally someone that gets it.

[Dark Horse]

They already went across country with him once this year. If they are going to do it again (which they shouldn't) it should be for the Travers.

Don't fool yourself, the prep race the horse belongs in is the Awesome Again at Santa Anita. It's a short van ride from training, on the same track as the BC, and leaves him plenty of time to get ready.

Pennsylvania Derby makes no sense, until of course you consider the elephant in the room.

That elephant's name starts with Shared and ends with Belief.

This.

Outside of the BC Classic, and a much anticipated encounter with SB, CC has nothing left to prove as a 3 yo.

[biggestal99]

This.

Outside of the BC Classic, and a much anticipated encounter with SB, CC has nothing left to prove as a 3 yo.

Neither did lookin at lucky, just after some easy cash in jersey and Indiana before taking on the toughies in the BC classic (and finishing 4th) in 2010.

Can't blame the connections for going after the easy money of minor 3 year old races worth big bucks.

Allan

[ILovetheInner]

People talk too soon. There was no Tonalist in the KYD or Preakness and the 2yo champion was on the sidelines. A picture can change. We'll know more come early fall whether Chrome has something to prove amidst his generation or not. Makes perfect sense as the Peter Pan yielded the Belmont exacta and Shared Belief has returned impressively. Let the dust settle. It's horse racing, enjoy it. Chrome looked sensational in the KYD and Preakness but the place horses in both had not a graded stakes win to their credit. Maybe that means nothing, or maybe it means a lot. The chapter on this crop is not yet over, and with an older division not too shabby.

[dilanesp]

From the top:
CC was going on the shelf for a bit win/lose/draw after the Belmont, so he wasn't going in the Haskell or Travers no matter what.
The horse had a very long 2/3yo campaign,they had to rest him.
How many other 3yo. in recent years ran as often as CC ?
It's not ducking when you're doing what's best for the horse.
The Penn. Dy is fine.
It's a million dollar race and it's 6 weeks away from the Breeders Cup.....if that's the time frame trainer Sherman wants for his horse so be it.
I haven't seen him make any mistakes with this horse yet,so it's not a stretch to assume he has it right........again.
BTW, didn't last years 3yo Champion run in the Penn. Derby ?
How did Will Take Charge do in the BC Classic ?
And Rex I wouldn't be so quick to assume that CC is going to tail off the second half of this year.
You have no way of knowing that.
Just like I have no way of knowing if he's going to be better.
Horses as good as this one don't suddenly lose their ability.
There's a reason why this horse smoked every other 3yo until the Belmont.....he's that good.

No comparison with WTC, who ran last summer.

California Chrome has not established he is good enough to run against older horses in the toughest race of the year. 1 prep race against bad 3 year olds won't change that.

[classhandicapper]

I was a little skeptical of CC initially, but eventually came around heading into the Derby even though I bet against him. Having seen in Triple Crown campaign I now think I have a very good line on his ability and short comings.

As a bettor, I love that's he's going into the Pennsylvania Derby. He'll probably win. So he'll go into the Classic with his reputation intact and wind up one of the top choices. I'll have no problem emptying out against him in the BC Classic at a short price.

If he was mine, I would have given him a break and skipped the Travers also, but I would have tried to get 2 races into him before the Classic. I would try one against older horses to see where he stacks up with them and to get him battle ready for the main event. I'm no sure just the Penn Derby is ideal. If he's good enough to win a Classic, he'll crush the Penn Derby and perhaps not get enough out of it as a prep.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

After running so well in the Triple Crown races, CC will definitely set himself apart as something special if he can compete well against older horses and later this year.

But as Golden Soul just displayed at the Spa, it doesn't always take much of a horse to run second in the Derby.

We'll know this fall how good CC really is - but history is against him....

[Dark Horse]

Neither did lookin at lucky, just after some easy cash in jersey and Indiana before taking on the toughies in the BC classic (and finishing 4th) in 2010.

Can't blame the connections for going after the easy money of minor 3 year old races worth big bucks.

Allan

There has never been a mystery about the course CC would take after the TC. He took a well-deserved break, will run one prep race at his home track of Los Alamitos, and then will start in the BC Classic.

Have you noticed that left coast players never complain that East coast horses don't make it out here? It's just not an issue. So why do right coasters think that their races are the true measuring stick? CC already won the Derby and Preakness, but somehow that doesn't quite count. :rolleyes:

[dilanesp]

There has never been a mystery about the course CC would take after the TC. He took a well-deserved break, will run one prep race at his home track of Los Alamitos, and then will start in the BC Classic.

Have you noticed that left coast players never complain that East coast horses don't make it out here? It's just not an issue. So why do right coasters think that their races are the true measuring stick? CC already won the Derby and Preakness, but somehow that doesn't quite count. :rolleyes:

Well, that's not quite fair.

I think we should unpack a few things here:

1. It's quite true that East Coast types often (not always, but often) are overly hung up on the importance of their old stakes races. The apotheosis of this was when Rachel Alexandra won the Horse of the Year over Zenyatta after ducking the Breeders' Cup, because you know, beating a short field of mostly inept males in the Woodward is as big a deal as winning the Breeders' Cup Classic over a full field.

The reality is that once the Breeders' Cup was created, the importance of New York's summer and fall stakes went bye-bye. I know this. You know this. They don't. And that's a legitimate criticism.

2. That said, there's no reason to anoint 3 year olds based on two races in May. The Kentucky Derby is often a weird, flukish race. Some of the all-time greats that won it include Super Saver, Lil E. Tee, Sunny's Halo, Dust Commander, Venetian Way, and Middleground. And as noted by others, it wasn't as though the Preakness field that California Chrome beat is up there with, say, the one Silver Charm beat.

Chrome won those two races, plus the Santa Anita Derby, but there are other big races for 3 year olds. While I don't buy the "it's important because it's a really old race at Saratoga" hype, the fact of the matter is the Travers is a legitimate 3 year old race because it often brings in horses who were either not ready in the spring classics or didn't show their best form. For instance, last year, which better reflected the abilities of Will Take Charge-- the Triple Crown races, or the Travers?

3. More importantly, there's no particular reason to think that a 3 year old from what looks like a weak crop is ready to blow older horses off the track. Even in the fall, older horses have an advantage in these races.

I think Sherman and company have forgotten how they got their horse ready for the Derby. They didn't gingerly wait for one prep race. They ran, over and over again, continuously from December until April, getting seasoning and races into the horse and bringing a seasoned racehorse into the Derby to run against a bunch of less experienced animals.

Their horse needs to be fully prepared to run against older horses in the BC Classic. One race at Parx or Los Al won't do it. Running in the Travers (or the Pacific Classic), followed by a couple of more starts, would help a lot.

[WP1981]

This all went from humorous to agitating very fast.

I am not a big CC homer, but he has kicked your ass twice in the Derby and Preakness. The Belmont was awful and given everything went wrong it still looked like he could have pulled it off. He didn't and you all had your 9-1 payday with a hype horse that got beat today by a horse CC already owned.

I think the opposite of what you are hoping for will happen, all this bullshit being talked about him will only drive his price up.

Oh..and lmao with guys like Mountainman talking about "real trainers I talk to were never too high on CC..blah..blah..drivel..blah..blah". All of "their" mounts have mostly been looking at his ass while he kicks theirs.

The ECB and Shared Belief stuff is getting rediculous. CC will be beat again, but here's to hoping he wins a majority of them so you can all polish down some more crow (which none of you actually do, since opposing viewpoints get run off rather quickly).

Yeah Broseph, go Tonalist! :rolleyes:

[Dark Horse]

The reality is that once the Breeders' Cup was created, the importance of New York's summer and fall stakes went bye-bye. I know this. You know this. They don't. And that's a legitimate criticism.


East has the TC, West -more or less- has the BC (as well as CC). Not a bad balance. In between that, during the summer, let horses run wherever it's more convenient, and/or, in a case such as CC at Los Alamitos, where the loyalties lie.

[Fager Fan]

Well, that's not quite fair.

I think we should unpack a few things here:

1. It's quite true that East Coast types often (not always, but often) are overly hung up on the importance of their old stakes races. The apotheosis of this was when Rachel Alexandra won the Horse of the Year over Zenyatta after ducking the Breeders' Cup, because you know, beating a short field of mostly inept males in the Woodward is as big a deal as winning the Breeders' Cup Classic over a full field.

When you ignore such an important fact as the track surface in that BC -- SYNTHETIC -- it invalidates your point and your entire post.

Rachel being accused of ducking is hysterical. Name the last 3yo filly to beat older in an open dirt route. Name the last fillies/mares to win an open G1 dirt route. You'll name Rachel and Havre de Grace, not Zenyatta.

I respect what Zenyatta accomplished, but I get tired of people who ignore the facts. Zenyatta beat two TURF horses in the other place spots in the Synthetic BC.

[biggestal99]

Rachel being accused of ducking is hysterical.

LOL. she did in fact duck every 10F or over race as a 3 year old.

The Belmont, The Alabama, The BC Classic. Those are facts.

Her trainer knew her distance limitations (well except for her last race in which she LOST her only 10F race to who.....)

she could not get a distance of ground, they kept her in her comfort zone for most of her career.

she also ducked the Apple Blossom the next year where should would have gotten her butt kicked by Zenyatta.

Allan

[classhandicapper]

I don't think it's a matter of east coast or west coast in his case.

IMO, giving CC a long rest after the Belmont was so obviously the right thing to do it shouldn't be part of the conversation. Second, all Breeder's Cup Classics are savagely deep and competitively contests. You have to be 100% or forget about your chances of winning it. The question is how do you get to 100% off that freshening.

My experience tells me that super talented horses often need to be battle tested before they can move up and beat the best horses. So I think if CC comes off a layoff and has too easy of a prep race, he may be a tad short of what's needed to win a race like the Classic even if he has the talent to do so.

I don't blame them for going for the big money in the easier spot. But I think a prep against older males (even if he lost) would be a better path to the Classic.

It's a balancing act.

If you already have a sharp battle tested horse you are probably better off looking for an easy spot so you don't squeeze the lemon dry. But if you trying to take a fresher horse back to his peak, you probably need the tougher race.

[Fager Fan]

LOL. she did in fact duck every 10F or over race as a 3 year old.

The Belmont, The Alabama, The BC Classic. Those are facts.

Her trainer knew her distance limitations (well except for her last race in which she LOST her only 10F race to who.....)

she could not get a distance of ground, they kept her in her comfort zone for most of her career.

she also ducked the Apple Blossom the next year where should would have gotten her butt kicked by Zenyatta.

Allan

Yet another who likes to spin things negatively. So what if she didn't race at 10f? She won the Preakness, against colts, going 1 3/16ths. You figure there's something really that magical about an additional sixteenth? Or that a horse can't be great if they never won at 1 1/4 miles or any other specific distance?

She didn't "duck" Zenyatta. She obviously wasn't right or ready leading up to the Zenyatta showdown. It didn't matter if it was Rachel or Zenyatta who had fallen ill or injured - there is no point in a showdown if either is known to not be at its physical best.

It's just willful disparagement of a horse to talk of her "ducking" given the toughness of her 3yo campaign.

[dilanesp]

When you ignore such an important fact as the track surface in that BC -- SYNTHETIC -- it invalidates your point and your entire post.

Rachel being accused of ducking is hysterical. Name the last 3yo filly to beat older in an open dirt route. Name the last fillies/mares to win an open G1 dirt route. You'll name Rachel and Havre de Grace, not Zenyatta.

I respect what Zenyatta accomplished, but I get tired of people who ignore the facts. Zenyatta beat two TURF horses in the other place spots in the Synthetic BC.

I didn't say anything about ducking, though she did duck.

I said winning a meaningless prep for the BC over a small number of mostly bad horses is not the same as winning the BC Classic over a big field. You will wait longer for a mare to win the Distaff, win the Classic, and lose another Classic in a photo than you will for a mare to win a meaningless Breeders Cup prep in New York. Personal Ensign and Lady's Secret both did that.

And the last time I checked, the award isn't called Dirt Horse of the Year. Or Horse of the Year Restricted to Horses Who Win Meaningless Prep Races In New York.

[Fager Fan]

I didn't say anything about ducking, though she did duck.

I said winning a meaningless prep for the BC over a small number of mostly bad horses is not the same as winning the BC Classic over a big field. You will wait longer for a mare to win the Distaff, win the Classic, and lose another Classic in a photo than you will for a mare to win a meaningless Breeders Cup prep in New York. Personal Ensign and Lady's Secret both did that.

And the last time I checked, the award isn't called Dirt Horse of the Year. Or Horse of the Year Restricted to Horses Who Win Meaningless Prep Races In New York.

Calling the Woodward a meaningless prep race shows that you're not going to be reasoned with in this conversation, so I shouldn't waste but so much time with you.

Rachel winning the Woodward did mean more than Zenyatta winning the BC Classic. Rachel was only THREE. Again, list all the 3yo fillies who have beaten open competition in a G1 dirt route. It's an incredible feat regardless of how you attempt to dismiss it. Zenyatta, on the other hand, had the race handed to her on a silver platter. That BC Classic will always be denoted in fair people's minds with an asterick beside it.

[dilanesp]

Calling the Woodward a meaningless prep race shows that you're not going to be reasoned with in this conversation, so I shouldn't waste but so much time with you.

Rachel winning the Woodward did mean more than Zenyatta winning the BC Classic. Rachel was only THREE. Again, list all the 3yo fillies who have beaten open competition in a G1 dirt route. It's an incredible feat regardless of how you attempt to dismiss it. Zenyatta, on the other hand, had the race handed to her on a silver platter. That BC Classic will always be denoted in fair people's minds with an asterick beside it.

First, the Woodward is meaningless. It is a prep for the BC. Other than Rachel, when's the last time a Woodward decided an Eclipse Award?

And you are ignoring that the field was crappy and small (like many prep races).

Meanwhile, the BC Classic is the decisive event most years.

I'm sorry that the BC rendered your races into preps. But it did happen
Your argument is like claiming a good race in the Wood Memorial should decide the three year old title.

Finally, if Zenyatta's BC Classic win was such a gift, how come fillies aren't routinely winningstakes oover males on synthetic.

It's never a gift for a mare to beat a big field of males in a BC race.

Finally, if the only reason she won that race was the surface, how the heck did she get up to lose in a photo the next year, on dirt, against every good dirt horse in America? Some "gift".

[Grits]

First, the Woodward is meaningless.

You may be the only individual here capable of declaring $750,000.00 meaningless.

I'm sorry but this takes a special kind of stupid! :lol:

And those several thousand on hand who felt the Saratoga grandstand shaking? This being quite rare. They didn't think it meaningless either. I'm telling you like a friend--you're late. It was pretty much settled here at PA, two years ago. ;)

[Tom]

Woodward meaningless? :lol: :lol: :lol:
So I guess the only race that matters is the BC Classic? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[biggestal99]

Calling the Woodward a meaningless prep race shows that you're not going to be reasoned with in this conversation, so I shouldn't waste but so much time with you.

Rachel winning the Woodward did mean more than Zenyatta winning the BC Classic. Rachel was only THREE. Again, list all the 3yo fillies who have beaten open competition in a G1 dirt route. It's an incredible feat regardless of how you attempt to dismiss it. Zenyatta, on the other hand, had the race handed to her on a silver platter. That BC Classic will always be denoted in fair people's minds with an asterick beside it.

Asterick * lol that's like the asterisk for roger Maris in 1962. Fact is that zenyatta remains the only female BC classic winner. Heck Rachel ducked three shots at running in the BC.

Rachel beat macho again, zenyatta beat gio Ponti.

Rachel barely held on. Zenyatta won going away.

Allan

[taxicab]

I think the Pennsylvania Derby might be a race Baffert looks at with Bayern.

[dilanesp]

Woodward meaningless? :lol: :lol: :lol:
So I guess the only race that matters is the BC Classic? :lol: :lol: :lol:

It has the same meaning as the Wood Memorial, which also has a big purse. It is a prep.

[andtheyreoff]

First, the Woodward is meaningless. It is a prep for the BC. Other than Rachel, when's the last time a Woodward decided an Eclipse Award?

And you are ignoring that the field was crappy and small (like many prep races).



Seriously? Check out some of the winners of the Woodward in recent times. Havre de Grace, Rachel, Curlin, Lawyer Ron, St. Liam, Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Lemon Drop Kid. All winners of the Woodward since 2000, all of them Eclipse Award winners. SIX of them went on to be Horse of the Year.

Meaningless couldn't be further from the truth.

[Irish Boy]

Woodward meaningless? :lol: :lol: :lol:
So I guess the only race that matters is the BC Classic? :lol: :lol: :lol:
By your own logic with respect to the Jim Dandy, the Woodward should be an ungraded allowance.

[Fager Fan]

Asterick * lol that's like the asterisk for roger Maris in 1962. Fact is that zenyatta remains the only female BC classic winner. Heck Rachel ducked three shots at running in the BC.

Rachel beat macho again, zenyatta beat gio Ponti.

Rachel barely held on. Zenyatta won going away.

Allan

Every one of the top dirt males were put at the disadvantage of having to run on a surface that favors turf runners.

It's too bad that we never saw Zenyatta on turf because her running style and ability to close into snail paces on synthetics made her look like a natural on turf. In any event, the unfortunate synthetic experiment resulted in one synthetic superhorse and her name was Zenyatta. She was also good on dirt - I'm not taking that away from her - but clearly she was this country's #1 ranked and far superior synthetic horse. The turf horses that she beat showed no indication that they were better on synthetics than turf, so even those horses likely weren't running on their preferred surface either.

Let's see, Rachel raced in and won the Oaks, Preakness, Acorn, Haskell, then Woodward, all within 4 months. And you wouldn't think it forgivable that the 3yo filly might've gotten a little tired at the end of the Woodward?

[dilanesp]

Seriously? Check out some of the winners of the Woodward in recent times. Havre de Grace, Rachel, Curlin, Lawyer Ron, St. Liam, Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Lemon Drop Kid. All winners of the Woodward since 2000, all of them Eclipse Award winners. SIX of them went on to be Horse of the Year.

Meaningless couldn't be further from the truth.

Havre de Grace is not a comparison you want to make.

She, just like Rachel, won the Woodward.

She then got her BUTT handed to her in the BC Classic.

Kinda shows you which one is the tougher race.

[Fager Fan]

Havre de Grace is not a comparison you want to make.

She, just like Rachel, won the Woodward.

She then got her BUTT handed to her in the BC Classic.

Kinda shows you which one is the tougher race.

She finished 4th by 3 lengths. I've seen far worse butt-whippings. But her example is the perfect one, showing how that meaningless prep meant enough that she won HOY despite losing the Classic.

A lot of other very nice horses have lost the Classic. Including Eclipse winners.

A reasonable person sees the extraordinary achievement by Rachel when she beat older males in the Woodward.

[castaway01]

Havre de Grace is not a comparison you want to make.

She, just like Rachel, won the Woodward.

She then got her BUTT handed to her in the BC Classic.

Kinda shows you which one is the tougher race.

After your point---that the Woodward is meaningless---was refuted and crushed for the illogical, biased garbage that it is, maybe you should just slink off and be quiet for a while rather than point out that Havre de Grace didn't win the BC Classic as the next building block of your argument.

[Rex Phinney]

LOL a thread about California Chrome and the Pennsylvania Derby turned into a discussion about the Woodward. One guy thinks it doesn't matter and all the east coast homers think it's the biggest race in the universe.

Jesus Christ some of you guys need a long look in the mirror.

[castaway01]

LOL a thread about California Chrome and the Pennsylvania Derby turned into a discussion about the Woodward. One guy thinks it doesn't matter and all the east coast homers think it's the biggest race in the universe.

Jesus Christ some of you guys need a long look in the mirror.

What are we supposed to say about California Chrome that wasn't said already? The horse has to actually be entered the race before we can really talk more about it, doesn't it? It's still two months away.

Jesus Christ Rex, take the stick out of your...well, wherever guys like you put the stick.

[PaceAdvantage]

First, the Woodward is meaningless. It is a prep for the BC. Other than Rachel, when's the last time a Woodward decided an Eclipse Award?The Woodward wasn't meaningless when Holy Bull won it. And I'm pretty sure that race clinched his Eclipse Award, as he did not run in the BC.

Holy Bull's Woodward was one of the greatest tour de force races I have ever personally witnessed live. The field he beat that day was pretty damn impressive, wouldn't you say?

Then again, those were the days when the Woodward was run at Belmont...which I assume you would interpret as making it even LESS important because it wasn't run at Saratoga... :lol:

When's the last time a non BC race in California CLINCHED an Eclipse Award of any importance?

[cj]

When's the last time a non BC race in California CLINCHED an Eclipse Award of any importance?

I guess whichever field of tomato cans Zenyatta beat in her last start before losing to Blame.

[horses4courses]

Another big east coast purse goes to a Cal-trained horse yesterday.
Been more than usual this year.

It's great out here. :cool:

[ronsmac]

The Woodward wasn't meaningless when Holy Bull won it. And I'm pretty sure that race clinched his Eclipse Award, as he did not run in the BC.

Holy Bull's Woodward was one of the greatest tour de force races I have ever personally witnessed live. The field he beat that day was pretty damn impressive, wouldn't you say?

Then again, those were the days when the Woodward was run at Belmont...which I assume you would interpret as making it even LESS important because it wasn't run at Saratoga... :lol:

When's the last time a non BC race in California CLINCHED an Eclipse Award of any importance?The Bull was one of my favorite horses ever, but the older horses of 1994 were a weak bunch. 3yos ran 1-2-3-4 in the classic if I recall correctly.

[Fager Fan]

The Bull was one of my favorite horses ever, but the older horses of 1994 were a weak bunch. 3yos ran 1-2-3-4 in the classic if I recall correctly.

Devil His Due ran second. Funny how times change. I loved the Devil but he was "nice" at the time, not fantastic. But look at his record now and tell me what we'd say today about a hard-knocking winner of almost $4m (with no big payday races in there) with all these graded wins and placings. He makes a lot of today's horses look like lightweights.


http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=1243405&registry=T

[dilanesp]

After your point---that the Woodward is meaningless---was refuted and crushed for the illogical, biased garbage that it is, maybe you should just slink off and be quiet for a while rather than point out that Havre de Grace didn't win the BC Classic as the next building block of your argument.

The Woodward is meaningless because it doesn't decide divisional championships. It is a prep for a race that does.

Saying "look at the nice horses who won it" isn't a response to that, because of course the New York BC preps will be won by nice horses. Nice horses like Mucho Macho Man and Game On Dude and Pleasantly Perfect win the Santa Anita prep race too
It's still a prep and it still draws a crappy field compared to the BC Classic.

[dilanesp]

The Woodward wasn't meaningless when Holy Bull won it. And I'm pretty sure that race clinched his Eclipse Award, as he did not run in the BC.

Holy Bull's Woodward was one of the greatest tour de force races I have ever personally witnessed live. The field he beat that day was pretty damn impressive, wouldn't you say?

Then again, those were the days when the Woodward was run at Belmont...which I assume you would interpret as making it even LESS important because it wasn't run at Saratoga... :lol:

When's the last time a non BC race in California CLINCHED an Eclipse Award of any importance?

For the record, I think the Woodward was more important when it was at Belmont. Prior to the advent of the BC, of course.

And your last point just proves East Coast bias in the voters. That's why Rachel won- because a lot of East Coast types HATE the BC because they know it destroyed the importance of their races.

I will tell you that Criminal Type clinched HOTY in the 1990 Hollywood Gold Cup. So it does happen.

[dilanesp]

The Bull was one of my favorite horses ever, but the older horses of 1994 were a weak bunch. 3yos ran 1-2-3-4 in the classic if I recall correctly.

Holy Bull, tragically, broke down when he faced Cigar. But had that not happened, Cigar would have owned him, especially at 1 1/4 miles.

[ronsmac]

Holy Bull, tragically, broke down when he faced Cigar. But had that not happened, Cigar would have owned him, especially at 1 1/4 miles.
we will never know .

[Fager Fan]

The Woodward is meaningless because it doesn't decide divisional championships. It is a prep for a race that does.

Saying "look at the nice horses who won it" isn't a response to that, because of course the New York BC preps will be won by nice horses. Nice horses like Mucho Macho Man and Game On Dude and Pleasantly Perfect win the Santa Anita prep race too
It's still a prep and it still draws a crappy field compared to the BC Classic.

This isn't about the Classic versus the Woodward. This is specifically about Rachel's Woodward and Zenyatta's Classic. You said the latter was far more important, impressive, and had the far better field. You were wrong. Zenyatta won the Classic on SYNTHETICS. She was the one synth monster that arose from the syth experiment, and she raced against a full field of horses who were best on OTHER surfaces, dirt and turf. Two turfers finished second and third. She had the Classic handed to her basically. As well as she ran in her second Classic, when she met up with dirt males on dirt, she lost.

Rachel on the other hand was a 3yo facing older dirt males on their preferred surface and she beat them. Let me repeat that she was only three since you don't seem to compute how difficult it is for a filly to win top dirt routes, especially a rather wispy 3yo filly against older top dirt males.

[horses4courses]

a rather wispy 3yo filly against older top dirt males.

Funny, I never heard RA described as "wispy" before.
Equine sexism.

[OTM Al]

Funny, I never heard RA described as "wispy" before.
Equine sexism.

Was in the paddock that day. Wispy isn't a bad description. She looked tiny compared to the male horses in the race. She bulked up a lot in her 4yo year and I have always wondered if maybe she bulked up too much and that was part of the problem.

[Rex Phinney]

What are we supposed to say about California Chrome that wasn't said already? The horse has to actually be entered the race before we can really talk more about it, doesn't it? It's still two months away.

Jesus Christ Rex, take the stick out of your...well, wherever guys like you put the stick.

Guys like you?

Um OK.

[Rex Phinney]

The Woodward is meaningless because it doesn't decide divisional championships. It is a prep for a race that does.


Quit saying that.

It's been a while since someone was so unanimously wrong about something. If you are going to keep saying the Woodward is meaningless you are wrong. 100%.

I don't care how big a deal the BC is, races like The Woodward, Travers, JCGC, Pacific Classic, Haskell are not preps. They are races worth huge money with plenty on the line. You get a group of owners together and put to them this list of races and ask if they want to win them they will give you a resounding "Hell Yes", all of them.

What you are saying is ridiculous give it up.

[PaceAdvantage]

Holy Bull, tragically, broke down when he faced Cigar. But had that not happened, Cigar would have owned him, especially at 1 1/4 miles.And you base this on what? Holy Bull getting pounded early by Tabasco Cat's rabbit while going 10f in the Travers and STILL beating the eventual BC Classic winner that year (Concern)?

No way you can say this with any certainty.

[Rex Phinney]

Rachel won HOTY because she was a damn good horse. It doesn't have anything todo with Woodward vs. BC or synthetic surfaces or East coast vs. West coast.

Rachel beat males 3 times, she beat the Derby winner in the Preakness (of off basically the same layoff), she beat older males. She won on a wet track in the Haskell and she beat males over three different racetracks.

I like Zenyatta more than Rachel, I love me some West coast racing for sure, but there is no way I can argue that Rachel did not deserve the horse of the year award, Her campaign was far better than Zenyatta's.

[letswastemoney]

No one wins a Rachel vs. Zenyatta argument. It just goes on forever.

[mostpost]

Back to the main topic, Bob Baffert says he is considering both the Travers and the Pennsylvania Derby for Bayern's next start. If he chooses the latter, will we still hear about how the CC connections are looking for a soft spot?

[thaskalos]

I guess whichever field of tomato cans Zenyatta beat in her last start before losing to Blame.

Is there a knowledgeable horseplayer anywhere who supports the idea that RA was a better horse than Zenyatta?

[mostpost]

The Woodward is meaningless because it doesn't decide divisional championships. It is a prep for a race that does.

Saying "look at the nice horses who won it" isn't a response to that, because of course the New York BC preps will be won by nice horses. Nice horses like Mucho Macho Man and Game On Dude and Pleasantly Perfect win the Santa Anita prep race too
It's still a prep and it still draws a crappy field compared to the BC Classic.
You're just talking nonsense. The Breeders Cup Classic is more important than the Woodward, but to say the Woodwrd is meaningless misses the point completely.It is not just a prep. It has a value of its own. If any Breeders Cup race decides any divisional championship, it is because the competitors have run in and won your so called "Meaningless preps." If they were really meaningless, the Breeders Cup would be meaningless too.

It would be like saying the regular season is meaningless, because it is not the playoffs; and the playoffs are meaningless because they are not the World Series.

[cj]

Is there a knowledgeable horseplayer anywhere who supports the idea that RA was a better horse than Zenyatta?

This has nothing to do with my post, I was just addressing PA's question. I'm arguing she wasn't better than Blame, but that the race in California she won against a very weak field must have sealed the horse of the year ribbon.

[thaskalos]

This has nothing to do with my post, I was just addressing PA's question. I'm arguing she wasn't better than Blame, but that the race in California she won against a very weak field must have sealed the horse of the year ribbon.
Oh...sorry. :blush:

[Rex Phinney]

Back to the main topic, Bob Baffert says he is considering both the Travers and the Pennsylvania Derby for Bayern's next start. If he chooses the latter, will we still hear about how the CC connections are looking for a soft spot?

If Baffert chooses the latter I don't think you will hear California Chrome's connections talking about Penn. Derby at all anymore. I just don't see bringing him back from this layoff and doing it against the apparent buzzsaw that is Bayern right now.

Would be interesting though because Bayern was supposed to run in the San Felipe vs. Chrome and scratched. This apparently was the beginning of his foot ailment.

I remember Coburn telling me that day Baffert scratched the horse because Baffert was scared of CC. LOL

[horses4courses]

If Baffert chooses the latter I don't think you will hear California Chrome's connections talking about Penn. Derby at all anymore. I just don't see bringing him back from this layoff and doing it against the apparent buzzsaw that is Bayern right now.

Would be interesting though because Bayern was supposed to run in the San Felipe vs. Chrome and scratched. This apparently was the beginning of his foot ailment.

I remember Coburn telling me that day Baffert scratched the horse because Baffert was scared of CC. LOL

Baffert said it more than once on TV around then (half jokingly)
that he wanted nothing to do with California Chrome.

Bayern came on a ton by June.
Before that, California Chrome would have beaten him.
I have my doubts that he will from here on out.

[Smarty Cide]

Bayern does look like a monster but at the same time Im sure California Chrome would of done the same thing to that field. Not that its a weak field.

Lets not forget how good California Chrome was before he had a chunk of his foot ripped off out the Belmont gate.... Not taking anything away from Bayern, hes legit but lets not forget CC dusted him roughly 10 weeks ago.


Just out of curiosity, you guys that just dont like CC, did you all also hate big brown, smarty jones, and curlin?

i just dont get why people love rooting against CC

[Rex Phinney]

Bayern does look like a monster but at the same time Im sure California Chrome would of done the same thing to that field. Not that its a weak field.

Lets not forget how good California Chrome was before he had a chunk of his foot ripped off out the Belmont gate.... Not taking anything away from Bayern, hes legit but lets not forget CC dusted him roughly 10 weeks ago.


Just out of curiosity, you guys that just dont like CC, did you all also hate big brown, smarty jones, and curlin?

i just don't get why people love rooting against CC

I think you are getting the wrong idea. I like California Chrome just fine. I just think his best days are likely done. I think the Preakness field was a little questionable, and I think he got all the breaks with Shared Belief getting hurt. You have forgotten how good Shared Belief was before his quarter crack.

I loved Curlin
I couldn't root for Big Brown with those connections I just couldn't.
I liked Smarty Jones ok I guess.

I went 2,800 miles to watch California Chrome live at Belmont. Not exactly like I love rooting against him. Quit being so defensive, it's horse racing. Being able to root for the horse like crazy and then bet against him the following race is what makes a horse player.

[Smarty Cide]

I think you are getting the wrong idea. I like California Chrome just fine. I just think his best days are likely done. I think the Preakness field was a little questionable, and I think he got all the breaks with Shared Belief getting hurt. You have forgotten how good Shared Belief was before his quarter crack.

I loved Curlin
I couldn't root for Big Brown with those connections I just couldn't.
I liked Smarty Jones ok I guess.

I went 2,800 miles to watch California Chrome live at Belmont. Not exactly like I love rooting against him. Quit being so defensive, it's horse racing. Being able to root for the horse like crazy and then bet against him the following race is what makes a horse player.

i dont see anything that suggest CC's best days are behind him. 1 belmont loss with a chunk ripped off his foot and his best days are behind him? - i just dont get that logic. Why couldnt he get even better and better? Bayern sure is.

[Rex Phinney]

i dont see anything that suggest CC's best days are behind him. 1 belmont loss with a chunk ripped off his foot and his best days are behind him? - i just dont get that logic. Why couldnt he get even better and better? Bayern sure is.

Bayern had a lot of room to improve.

Unless California Chrome is going to sprout wings and go unicorn status he isn't going to be better than he was for the SA Derby and Kentucky Derby.

He wouldn't be the first horse to take a break and come back not the same. They don't run off the charts forever. Again this is me being realistic. Look how little he did as a 2-year old. Horses move up and they move down, they are not machines.

It leads me to believe the horse got really sharp and hit a nice hot streak.

I know you think he is the end all, be all champion of our time, but he isn't. He did exactly what IHA did just 2 years ago. I love CC, I love his story and I hope he wins again. But guess what? I also like Shared Belief's story, I think he could have beaten Chrome in the preps at Santa Anita. I also can't help but pull a little bit for Tonalist at this stage, his connections were terribly wronged when they should have had some time in the spotlight. Clement is a hell of a trainer and he didn't need to be treated that way.

I'm a fan of the sport, not one single horse.

[cnollfan]

I'm a fan of the sport, not one single horse.

:ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

I can't believe there's actually an argument on this board about the merits of Woodward Stakes in general or the quality of Rachel's Woodward field vs. Zenyatta's Classic field.


1. The Woodward is obviously still one the most prestigious dirt races in the US.

2. Rachel's Woodward was a weak edition, but her performance within it was spectacular. It will and should be remembered for decades.

3. The BC Classic will virtually always and everywhere be a stronger quality race than the Woodward.

4. Zenyatta's Classic was probably below PAR for a Classic (though tougher to measure because synthetic figures run lower than dirt and there were cross surface issues), but it was far and away the highest quality race of that year. Her performance will and should be remembered for decades.

IMO, RA and Z are 2 of the 5 best fillies I have seen in my lifetime. That covers Ruffian to the present. They just happen to come along at the same time on opposite coasts. They didn't meet because both connections did what they thought was in the best interests of their own horse at various times when their paths might have crossed or when they were scheduled to cross. Either or both deserved horse of the year.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just out of curiosity, you guys that just dont like CC, did you all also hate big brown, smarty jones, and curlin?

i just dont get why people love rooting against CCI liked Big Brown an awful lot. I grew to like Smarty Jones during the Triple Crown more and more. Curlin I respected but I can't say I liked...don't know why...

I LOVED Sunday Silence...one of my two favorite horses of all time that I have seen run during my lifetime (the other being Holy Bull)....so you can't accuse me of being a west-coast hater...

[Smarty Cide]

I liked Big Brown an awful lot. I grew to like Smarty Jones during the Triple Crown more and more. Curlin I respected but I can't say I liked...don't know why...

I LOVED Sunday Silence...one of my two favorite horses of all time that I have seen run during my lifetime (the other being Holy Bull)....so you can't accuse me of being a west-coast hater...



i pretty much hop on the bandwagon of any superstar 3 year old that makes a name for himself before the derby. I love a horse that gets horse racing in the public spotlight.

Horses like Smarty Jones, Big Brown, and California Chrome are just great for the sport. Any thing that gives our sport more positive attention the better...

[Fager Fan]

4. Zenyatta's Classic was probably below PAR for a Classic (though tougher to measure because synthetic figures run lower than dirt and there were cross surface issues), but it was far and away the highest quality race of that year. Her performance will and should be remembered for decades.


You don't need any figures to know that the race was run over a surface that only one horse in the field preferred, and that horse was Zenyatta.

I don't know that it was far and away the highest quality race of the year. Take the turf horses out of there and you've got a field that looks on par with the Whitney, Woodward, etc.

[Grits]

i pretty much hop on the bandwagon of any superstar 3 year old that makes a name for himself before the derby. I love a horse that gets horse racing in the public spotlight.

Horses like Smarty Jones, Big Brown, and California Chrome are just great for the sport. Any thing that gives our sport more positive attention the better...

The problem with looking only to young three year olds? .... Like sitting behind the wheel of a Porsche, there's 7 gears and you're stuck in 1st. In this day and time, any Graded stakes winner, especially G1, that comes back to campaign at 4 or beyond is beneficial to the sport. Whether its Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Wise Dan, Curlin or whomever. People are pleased to see such horses remain in training.

[Smarty Cide]

The problem with looking only to young three year olds? .... Like sitting behind the wheel of a Porsche, there's 7 gears and you're stuck in 1st. In this day and time, any Graded stakes winner, especially G1, that comes back to campaign at 4 or beyond is beneficial to the sport. Whether its Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Wise Dan, Curlin or whomever. People are pleased to see such horses remain in training.


true, the weird dynamic of the sport is we create a superstar then retire him...

[ronsmac]

And you base this on what? Holy Bull getting pounded early by Tabasco Cat's rabbit while going 10f in the Travers and STILL beating the eventual BC Classic winner that year (Concern)?

No way you can say this with any certainty.I loved the cold Holy Bull -Concern exacta that Travers. Unfortunately there was no exacta wagering on the race.

[wiffleball whizz]

I loved the cold Holy Bull -Concern exacta that Travers. Unfortunately there was no exacta wagering on the race.

Say what?!?!?!

No exacta????

[ronsmac]

Say what?!?!?!

No exacta????There were only 4 betting interest, back then you had to have 5 in n.y.to allow exacta wagering. I think there was 1 early scratch and Lukas had an entry ,Tabasco Cat and Comanche Trail.

[classhandicapper]

You don't need any figures to know that the race was run over a surface that only one horse in the field preferred, and that horse was Zenyatta.

I don't know that it was far and away the highest quality race of the year. Take the turf horses out of there and you've got a field that looks on par with the Whitney, Woodward, etc.

That particular synthetic surface (Pro Ride) was very kind to turf horses. They loved it. You can't simply dismiss the quality of the race by saying turf horses were in it. There are only turf horses in the Arc too.

Gio Ponti was the best turf horse in the US at the time and Twice Over was a Grade 1 winner from Europe that was highly ranked internationally before and after the race.

Summer Bird was a solid Grade 1 winner. It was his debut on synth, but nothing about his performance suggested he didn't handle the track. He finished ahead of everyone he should have finished ahead of, was not beaten badly, and ran a figure in line with his dirt efforts given that synth figures tend to run a few points lower than dirt figures.

Colonel John was a Travers winner with solid form on both dirt and synthetic. He had just missed in a Grade 1 on synthetic and ran a similar race in the previous year's Classic. Not a killer, but a very good horse.

Richard's Kid was was very good on synth. He was a multiple Grade 1 winner on the surface and had recently won the Pacific Classic. I would say he was as good as horses like Bullsbay and Macho Again at the time.

Einstein was a high quality Grade 1 winner on multiple surfaces and Rip Van Winkle was a killer. They were among horses that either didn't fire, didn't get a good trip etc....but there always a few of those in every Classic.

Was it a monster field like some of the best Classics? No way. But it was WAY above the typical Grade 1 male race and anything else that year. My only wish was that Rip Van Winkle fired his "A" race because he was probably a legitimate superstar. It could have made for an even more exciting race. IMO Z won with something in reserve going out. It would have enhanced her had he fired and she won anyway. Then again, perhaps he beats her and she clears the rest by more.

[The Parolee]

The only conventional dirt stakes winner Shared Belief has ever beat is Candy Boy........certainly not a world beater.

Here are the horses that have run second to SB in his races.

Candy Boy (twice).
Ourwestcoastghost.
Kobe's Back.
Time Jumper.

This is not a strong bunch in any way,shape, or form.
Dumb

[horses4courses]

Dumb

You think that's a list of quality horses?

Shared Belief is a very nice, undefeated, colt.
He is hardly battle tested, though.

[lamboguy]

You think that's a list of quality horses?

Shared Belief is a very nice, undefeated, colt.
He is hardly battle tested, though.as bad as CHROME ran his last race, i like him better than SHARED BELIEF. CC needs to draw in the middle of the pack and get a perfect ride and trip to be in the hunt. i know its not my opinion that counts, but if he drew the inside, i would scratch the horse. he's going to be a huge price too.

[tucker6]

What is your definition of 'huge' regarding CC's price at the BC?

[lamboguy]

What is your definition of 'huge' regarding CC's price at the BC?i'd say over 10-1. but that horse needs everything to go his way.

the way its looking, SHARED BELIEF is going to be the favorite.

[classhandicapper]

CC is a interesting read. Every wise guy in America hates him.

1. His race at PARX was weak even though he raced on the gold rail

2. Even his best races are not that fast

3. It appears the general assumption now is that he was an early developer and won't move forward like many 3yos do in the fall.

Those are all legitimate reasons to try to beat a favorite. But when everyone shares the same view and the price rises, at some point you can use him and hope he didn't like racing inside horses at PARX and will fire a new top back in CA, 2nd off the layoff, with a better stalking trip on the outside.

[Redboard]

i'd say over 10-1. but that horse needs everything to go his way.

the way its looking, SHARED BELIEF is going to be the favorite.
I would take him at that price, 2nd off a layoff, running in his back yard. But I don't see him over 5-1, with no big older horse threat and ItsMyLuckDay and Wicked Strong out.When's the last time the Derby winner was 10-1 in the BCC? Anyone?

[horses4courses]

I would take him at that price, 2nd off a layoff, running in his back yard. But I don't see him over 5-1, with no big older horse threat and ItsMyLuckDay and Wicked Strong out.When's the last time the Derby winner was 10-1 in the BCC? Anyone?

Agreed....he'll be around 5-1 - lot's of sentimental money that he will rebound.
Shared Belief will have a slash in his odds, and won't be far off 7-5.

[Tom]

I wouldn't take CC at 20-1.
He will run up the track - if he runs at all - and then retire.

[camourous]

I would take him at that price, 2nd off a layoff, running in his back yard. But I don't see him over 5-1, with no big older horse threat and ItsMyLuckDay and Wicked Strong out.When's the last time the Derby winner was 10-1 in the BCC? Anyone?

i don't remember the last time a derby winner raced in the Classic

[cj]

i don't remember the last time a derby winner raced in the Classic

Mine That Bird for sure, don't remember any since.

[alydar]

I wouldn't take CC at 20-1.
He will run up the track - if he runs at all - and then retire.

I agree, I don't see this horse winning again, and the Classic will be his last, I would not be surprised to see a retirement before the race.

[horses4courses]

I wouldn't take CC at 20-1.
He will run up the track - if he runs at all - and then retire.

I'm with you there

[Redboard]

Mine That Bird for sure, don't remember any since.

You're right, he was 14-1. but coming off a 6th place finish at the same track(SA) on the synthetic. CC has three wins at SA this year, the closest by 5 lengths.

C'mon people , he's had one bad race this year. He's not 20-1.

[thespaah]

Say what?!?!?!

No exacta????
Only 5 horses with a coupled entry.
Back then NYRA was not keen on offering exotics on short fields with short priced horses. In this case Holy Bull was 4/5...Lukas had Tabasco Cat at 8/5 and used a rabbit (Commanche Trail). The "speed duel" with Holy Bull lasted 4f in 46 and change. The rabbit was spent and Tabasco Cat was on a treadmill. Got beat by 17 1/2.

[letswastemoney]

I still think the hatred towards the owners has influenced opinion on the horse's ability.

With that said, going into the Classic with one prep is difficult.

[Robert Fischer]

I still think the hatred towards the owners has influenced opinion on the horse's ability.

With that said, going into the Classic with one prep is difficult.

I agree.

We are only human. We are superficial. There are those who dislike his connections. There are those who took a bad price in the Belmont and lost money, and/or did it again in the Pa Derby and hold that against him.

[thespaah]

You're right, he was 14-1. but coming off a 6th place finish at the same track(SA) on the synthetic. CC has three wins at SA this year, the closest by 5 lengths.

C'mon people , he's had one bad race this year. He's not 20-1.
Is that a fan of the horse talking? Or a handicapper concentrating on making money?

[horses4courses]

You're right, he was 14-1. but coming off a 6th place finish at the same track(SA) on the synthetic. CC has three wins at SA this year, the closest by 5 lengths.

C'mon people , he's had one bad race this year. He's not 20-1.

I'm not throwing CC completely out of the Classic picture.
However, I wouldn't be interested in betting on him at 5-1.

We'll know more about his well being leading up to the race.
There are a couple of serious works still to come.
If he's lively after those, and the day of the race,
like he was in the Spring, then you can't leave him out.
Especially underneath in exotics.

Another factor with CC is the draw.
A :1: or :2: slot won't help his chances any.

[classhandicapper]

I wouldn't take CC at 20-1.


He'd be on my exotic tickets at 20-1.

I'm not sure what price it would take for me to put him on my tickets. It might depend on how he's working. If he's working much better leading up to the Classic than before the PARX race, I'd feel comfortable assuming he's going to fire his "A" race from the spring. Then he's not a total toss for me. I'd feel compelled to use him a little in the exotics unless the price was very short.

[PaceAdvantage]

DumbWhat a great first post.

[Redboard]

I'm not .....

Another factor with CC is the draw.
A :1: or :2: slot won't help his chances any.

Absolutely. If he's post 7 or above, and 10-1 or above, he'd be worth a shot IMO. But probably will be something like 6-1. At that price, I'll pass.

[Redboard]

You're right, Mine That Bird was 14-1. but coming off a 6th place finish at the same track(SA) on the synthetic. CC has three wins at SA this year, the closest by 5 lengths.

In 2007 Street Sense was the favorite in the classic at 5/2. He finished 4th.

In 2005, Giacomo went off at 21-1, and finished 4th.

Giacomo stands as tied with Mine That Bird for the second-biggest longshot ever to win the Derby. So it's no wonder they were such high odds in the BCC.

[Rex Phinney]

I see him going off at 3-1 or 4-1. Where else are people going to put their money? No Game on Dude, Mucho Macho Man, Palace Malice, Wicked Strong, Will Take Charge or even Wise Dan (he was a longshot to run but still).

I just don't see the masses putting $$$ behind Bayern or Tonalist. The name recognition isn't there and I expect doubters about distance for Bayern and running outside Belmont for Tonalist. Not saying I don't think either of those two can win the race just that I don't see them going off at short odds.

The first year Mizdirection ran in the BC her morning line was something like 12-1 and she went off at 4-1. Expect Shared Belief to see the same support. Couple that with the name that is California Chrome and I think the odds on the rest of the field will be hard to pass up.

[bks]

The first year Mizdirection ran in the BC her morning line was something like 12-1 and she went off at 4-1. Expect Shared Belief to see the same support. Couple that with the name that is California Chrome and I think the odds on the rest of the field will be hard to pass up.

Mizdirection was 20-1 ML IIRC, and went off abt 5-1.

[Cratos]

My knock against CC in order of preference is:

1. Breeding; I don’t believe he has the 1-1/4m distance in him although he won the Ky Derby which was run at 1-1/4m, but he did it in a lethargic time.

2. A Long layoff with only one prep race

3. I believe that both Shared Belief and Tonalist are better than CC at the 1-1/4m distance.

Also, I see the closing odds on CC in the BC Classic being between 4-1 and 6-1 based of the crowd’s sentiment and not CC’s ability to win.

[cj]

I personally consider California Chrome a non-contender, so whether 5 to 1 or 50-1, I won't be betting him. Of course he won't be 50-1, or even 15-1, but you don't win the Classic coming in like this.

[JustRalph]

I personally consider California Chrome a non-contender, so whether 5 to 1 or 50-1, I won't be betting him. Of course he won't be 50-1, or even 15-1, but you don't win the Classic coming in like this.

I would have felt better about him if he would be coming in off the Belmont.

But that's not fair, hindsight and all......

[Mineshaft]

I personally consider California Chrome a non-contender, so whether 5 to 1 or 50-1, I won't be betting him. Of course he won't be 50-1, or even 15-1, but you don't win the Classic coming in like this.





I agree 100% plus 2nd race off a layoff is usually the horses worst race off the layoff.