Get real?

[lsbets]

LJB,

Should this guy get real too?:

http://www.desertdispatch.com/cgi-bin/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1082900423,81939,

He's back in the States now according to the article, and probably not too far from Arizona. Maybe you can get over there and insult him in person. Go ahead, tell him to get real, that your opinion is more accurate than the reality that he lived. Not every soldier here would share his opinion, but I would say the overwhelming majority do. Don't believe the news you hear at home, it does not resemble reality.

[ljb]

Lsbets,
All the young men and women making sacrifices for us in the world are in my daily prayers.
But I don't really have time to read any propaganda put out by the pentagon. The same pentagon that refuses any photographic documention of the poor men and women that have made the ultimate sacrifice in an ill advised war.

[witchdoctor]

Lsbets, you still in Iraq or have you made it back to Texas?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by ljb
Lsbets,
All the young men and women making sacrifices for us in the world are in my daily prayers.
But I don't really have time to read any propaganda put out by the pentagon. The same pentagon that refuses any photographic documention of the poor men and women that have made the ultimate sacrifice in an ill advised war.

I think I hear some truth biting some Arse!

[Tom]

Originally posted by ljb
Lsbets,
All the young men and women making sacrifices for us in the world are in my daily prayers.
But I don't really have time to read any propaganda put out by the pentagon. The same pentagon that refuses any photographic documention of the poor men and women that have made the ultimate sacrifice in an ill advised war.

What a low life you are!
To what purpose should there be photographic evidence of coffins coming home? The families have all the documentation they need. Why put them through more anguish? And the families who have sons and daughters still over there, worrying abouth them day and night...you want to thorw that image in TV every night for them to watch?
Don't the have the right to some privacy in their lowest hours?
Go buy a Hustler Mag if you need cheap thrills that badly.
RECOUNT!

[lsbets]

ljb,

Is that paper a pentagon run paper? Doen't appear that way to me. Maybe you think so because Fort Irwin is one of the local communities that the paper serves, but it seems to me that is a local paper for that area of the California desert.

Perhaps you are afraid to hear the truth from the people over here. In terms of releasing photos of dead bodies or coffins - if I were to be killed, I would not want someone like you to have photos to use to exploit my family in an attempt to score political points.

Witchdoctor,

I am still in Iraq. I spent the last couple of weeks in and around Fallujah, and now I am getting a chance to relax for a few days before I hit the road again.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I hope those idiots with the RPG's throw them out so you all can have a little rest!!

[ljb]

The refusal of photographic evidence of dead young men and women returning to the united states is just another propaganda method of the military-industrial complex. Just like they call these young men and women "boots on the ground". Anyone with a smattering of intelligence can see through this but, there are some who buy into this propoganda. I will continue to pray for their safety and enlightment.

[cj]

If I were to be killed in action, I would not want any of the photographs to be public, even in a casket. Since when do we have a right to see this? You are way over the top here.

[lsbets]

So now ljb's latest is to say that I do not even have a smattering of intelligence. I could reply to this in many ways, but I think he once again reveals who he is. He might say that he was not referring to me, but according to his own words, CJ and myself would be lumped in his group of people without a smattering of intelligence since we would both like our families to have the opportunity to mourn in private. I think I will just let the character of this man be judged by his own words.

[ljb]

You guys are either ignorant or bullheaded. I am reffering to the pentagons refusal to allow any and all coverage of the returning dead Americans. Or as they like to call them "boots on the ground". They learned in Viet Nam that seeing this makes America aware of what is really going on and not so quick to support the effort. This of course would go against the wishes of the military-industrial complex.
This kind of thought makes me sick...War is good for the economy---invest your son/daughter.

[cj]

You are an idiot...all I said was I wouldn't want my casket or dead body shown in any newspaper or magazine. Period. I'm sure most families of returning soldiers killed in action feel the same way. Why allow human remains to be exploited for some political agenda?

You, ljb, can kiss my @$$!

p.s. I bet the families won't throw away the medals of their sons and daughters.

[ljb]

cj,
You go man! Cover up reality, don't let anyone know what is really going on. Or to put it another way, stick your head in the sand and everything will go away. You are forcing me to say.
GET REAL!
And I wouldn't expect the families to throw away any medals. What did Bush or Cheney do with their medals ? Oh wait a minute they did not recieve any medals.

[cj]

Everyone knows people are dying, its no secret. What right do you have to see the actual bodies? Who the hell do you think you are? What purpose does it serve to show this?

p.s.
they did not recieve any medals
If you do not spy a 'c', place the 'i' before the 'e.' :)

[ljb]

cj,
A picture is worth a thousand words. What purpose is it to hide this from the American public? Thanks for pointing out my typo.

[cj]

So, let me make sure I have this straight. The same guy who allegedly cheers soldiers in parades demands to see pictures of dead bodies of these same soldiers brethren? Somehow, I think if the soldiers you cheered knew of your feelings, they would rather not have your applause. Please, do me a favor as military man, and stay home next time!

[cj]

To answer your question, nothing is being hidden. In this country, we don't show dead people on televison news. When was the last time you saw a picture of a crime scene with a dead body next to it? Did you see a single image of a dead person following the OKC tragedy, or the World Trade Center attacks? (In case you forgot, we were attacked by Muslim terrorists on our soil...just a side note.) We don't cover stacks of dead bodies, the story is being told.

[ljb]

cj,
I am not asking to see pictures of dead people. Up to this weekend the only flag draped casket I saw was the one in the Bush commercial.
In times past when the victims of wars returned they received full military honors upon their arrival in the homeland. Now the pentagon sneaks them in. What are they trying to hide?
Also I will continue to cheer any service men or women I see in parades. I do support the troops and pray for their safety. I do not support the people that put them in harms way for some personal agenda.

[lsbets]

ljb quotes:

"Anyone with a smattering of intelligence can see through this but, there are some who buy into this propoganda. I will continue to pray for their safety and enlightment."

and then:

"You guys are either ignorant or bullheaded. I am reffering to the pentagons refusal to allow any and all coverage of the returning dead Americans."

First, you said anyone who does not want to see the bodies or coffins of dead soldiers had not even a smattering of intelligence, and then when challenged, you backpedaled and said that you were only referring to the pentagon. Well, as an inanimate object, I would have to agree that the pentagon does not have any intelligence, its a building. Also, I wonder why you pray for the enligtenment of said building. You talk quite often of praying for the soldiers, but this is the fiorst time that I have heard you say you pray for buildings.

Face it ljb - you stuck your foot in your mouth and the more you try to talk your way out of it the worse it sounds. Hmmmm, you remind me of a politician .......... (okay, some will say Bush, others will say Kerry - how about most politicians)

[Tom]

I really believe this jerk gets off seeing flag-covered coffins - it somehow justifies his sickness to himself. See how he keeps gnawing at the phrase "boots on the ground?" And he made a sick joke about it to labers earlier and then backpeddled on it when called out. This troll is shameless. He is not worth replying to anymore. RECOUNT.
(Hmmm, could Amazin and Ljb be one and the same? A secret identity?)

[ljb]

Lsbets said
First, you said anyone who does not want to see the bodies or coffins of dead soldiers had not even a smattering of intelligence,

I would ask you to point out the post where I said that! Otherwise please retract the statement.

[lsbets]

ljb,

"The refusal of photographic evidence of dead young men and women returning to the united states is just another propaganda method of the military-industrial complex. Just like they call these young men and women "boots on the ground". Anyone with a smattering of intelligence can see through this but, there are some who buy into this propoganda. I will continue to pray for their safety and enlightment."

Your words, my friend. Anyone who does not think that not allowing photos of dead Americans is propoganda does not have a smattering of intelligence. Most people involved (ie, the ones who might be those dead Americans, myself and CJ included) do not want the photos of our bodies or caskets shown out of respect for our families. Too bad you just don't get it.

[ljb]

lsbets said Most people involved (ie, the ones who might be those dead Americans, myself and CJ included) do not want the photos of our bodies or caskets shown out of respect for our families.
Respect for our families ?
Does this mean these folks do not want funerals where the bodies/caskets may be shown? Does this mean they want their bodies/caskets shipped into the U.S. under the cover of darkness with no color guard ? Or does this mean they don't want America to share in their grief ?
Also what I posted is not what you said, please refrain from twisting my words. Thank you

[ljb]

Tom,
I do not recall making a sick joke about "boots on the ground" would you please point me to the post.
It appears you righty's are feeling the pain as I am witnessing numerous mis-quotes and paraphrasing of my posts. And your insistent call for "recount" enforces my sense that you are experiencing fear of my continued posting here. If you can't reply with straight forward facts, please don't reply at all.
Thank you

[lsbets]

ljb,

As futile as this may be, let me try to get you to understand the mindset of my soldiers over here. We all know that today or tomorrow, we could be the unlucky bastard to have a mortar drop on our heads, or an IED go off next to our vehicle, or get killed in an ambush, etc..... We have accepted that reality and tend not to think about it too much. For our families, the story is different. They know all about what might happen to us, and it is worse for them because they see the misrepresentations on the news and hear the rants of people who only wish to win a political argument regardless of any connection that their statements might have to reality. Every day my wife worries whether or not I will come back from my next convoy, if a mortar will hit my tent while I sleep, if I will be home in August for my R&R to be by her side when our daughter is born, or if I will be home next year to raise our family together.

My wife has been through enough, and believes in what I am doing. The last thing that she would need if I were to die over here is some leftist creep flashing pictures of my coffin or body to show everyone what we all know - people die in wars. She has the right to mourn privately, as does any other soldier's spouse or parent. In a perfect world, all soldiers funerals would be treated with the repsect and dignity that they deserve, and soldiers families would be honored for their sacrifices. Unfortunately, we both know that there are those who would intentionally try to cause her distress because it might look good for their side of the argument. We had a TV reporter do that to us in NC before I left. At our farewell ceremony, the reporter intentionally asked questions hoping to get my wife to cry on camera. When my wife did not cry, the reporter kept digging and pushing. It wasn't until i inquired as to how it would feel to walk around with a camera up her rear end that the reporter left my wife alone. There are many others who would do worse. Many military families have had to change their phone numbers to unlisted numbers and get PO boxes to hide their addresses because of harassment from both con men and the anti war crowd. Spare me the self righteousness. Have some respect for the families who sacrifice so much every day.

[ljb]

lsbets,
I have just given your post a cursory read. I understand and agree with most of what you said.
A few items. There are creeps on both sides of the fence not just leftist.
The reporter harrassing your wife in N.C. is a pos. It is unfortunate that some will take advantage of a bad situation, con men and anti-war people. But this is a fact of life. Many folks tried to profit from the 9/11 disaster. Some trying to sell artifacts some claiming lost relatives. But these actions don't have to be political, they are just bad people.
I disagree totally with Bush's decision to invade Iraq. But I support you and all our troops in your efforts. As you may have read, my wife and I started the round of applause last week for the troops in the parade. No matter the outcome of November's election, I expect we will be in Iraq for sometime. I can only hope that we eventually find a way to exit with a minimum of casualties and with honor. Until then Godspeed to you and your troops.

[delayjf]

LBJ,

What your really upset about is that the anti-war activist aren't being allowed to on a daily basis show bodies in order to horrify the American public and further erode the current support americans have for the conflict.

Instead the anti war crowd now has to resort to refering to fallen Americans war heros as "war criminals" or "Dumb Jocks"

[ljb]

Delayjf,
Glad to hear you can now read minds and interpet others thoughts. Your post is the most blatant mis-interpation of facts I have ever seen on this board. If you are going to continue to write fiction, take some lessons from say, Lefty.

[Tom]

Nightline, Friday night, will feature a tribute to our fallen heroes. Each name will be read and a photo shown on screen. That will be the entire show.
Now Ljb can find comfort. Gollum can sit and drool all night and justify his sick perversion.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Tom
Nightline, Friday night, will feature a tribute to our fallen heroes. Each name will be read and a photo shown on screen. That will be the entire show.
Now Ljb can find comfort. Gollum can sit and drool all night and justify his sick perversion.

Ted Koppel is making a mockery of the dead. You guys realize this will be leading Nightline right into May Sweeps.....right?

[Lefty]

lbj, if any ignorance is showing, once again, it's yours. The law about not photographing coffins was put in during the Clinton yrs.
I agree with it. What kind of ghoul are you?

[ljb]

Lefty,
First place I don't really give a rats rectum when this was implemented. Secondly I don't believe it is a law, more of a directive by the pentagon methinks. Third I am offended by these directives which tend to gloss over the realities of what is going on. Of course this does seem to fit in your scheme. Namely bury your head in the sand and things will get better. As the topic says "Get real " Lefty

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Ted Koppel is making a mockery of the dead. You guys realize this will be leading Nightline right into May Sweeps.....right?

Would you please tell me how Ted Koeppel reading the names of soldiers who died is making a mockery of the dead. No one seemed to have any problem mentioning Pat Tillman's death. His name was mentioned? Why can't the soldier's sacrfiice from some small town also be mentioned? I find your comment in this regard offensive.

[Secretariat]

I have not made up my mind entirely on this coffin business.

On the one hand I understand the privacy of soldiers and their families, but I also take issue with the comment that one person posted here "In war people die, everyone knows that." That is a simplistic answer.

Little children know people die in wars, just ask them. A person who plays a video game knows people die in wars. The average person you ask in the street are told 10 people died in Iraq today and they understand that. But they don't really viscerally connect to it. The soldier who watched his friend get killed viscerally connects to it The family experiencing that dead boy viscerally connects to it.

When coffins are shown, people seeing those coffins begin to get closer to viscerally connecting to the true costs of going to war. Those coffins symbolize the sacrifices that are so easily tossed about by this administration with rhetorical speeches about sacrifice and patriotism.

The more I write this, I beleive I have no objection to the coffins being shown. It pains me to watch it, but it viscerally connects me in a way to those men and women.

I also feel we should be showing servicemen returning succesfully as well as wounded soldiers.

War is not just a patriotic story (or just a grim story of death), and to hide from the reality of what is occurring because it is distasteful to look at is, as lbj states. "propagandizing" the war and denying the price and the cost of what war actually involves.

[Lefty]

lbj, you go ghoul.
It's a tragedy that any american or allied life is lost in war, but that's the vagaries of war. To put it in proper perspective, more american lives were lost in training accidents in WW11 than have been lost in this war.
I too, pray for our troops and allies, but better to fight em in the streets of Iraq than N.Y or any other american city. Of course, until the war comes to your town, lbj, you won't agree. Bush could do nothing that would please you, and that speaks to your lack of perspective, not his.

[delayjf]

Perhaps we should also show video tapes of Iraqi torture chambers or the rape rooms. Remind everybody the price of appathy. Serously, lbj the only reason the left wants to show the coffins is to outrage the American public. The comments about Tillman are real, I only wish I had the web address. I'll hunt for it.

[so.cal.fan]

lsbets:
You are in our prayers......
We are proud of you here on Pace Advantage......proud of all you brave men and women.
Please come back safe and soon......I know a guy at Lone Star, who will buy you a beer and watch the horses in the paddock with you when you come back!;)

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Would you please tell me how Ted Koeppel reading the names of soldiers who died is making a mockery of the dead. No one seemed to have any problem mentioning Pat Tillman's death. His name was mentioned? Why can't the soldier's sacrfiice from some small town also be mentioned? I find your comment in this regard offensive.

I don't know..........maybe the 62 television stations who are refusing to air it.........can tell him.....see below:

Sinclair to Preempt `Nightline' on ABC Stations, Cites Politics Sinclair to Preempt `Nightline' on ABC Stations, Cites Politics
April 29 (Bloomberg) -- Sinclair Broadcast Group Inc. ordered its ABC affiliates to preempt tomorrow's broadcast of ``Nightline,'' which will air the names and photos of U.S. military personnel who have died in combat in Iraq, saying the move is politically motivated.

``Despite the denials by a spokeswoman for the show, the action appears to be motivated by a political agenda designed to undermine the efforts of the United States in Iraq,'' the company said in a faxed statement. Sinclair, which owns 62 U.S. television stations, said ABC is disguising political statements as news content.

Nightline anchor Ted Koppel will read the names of the more than 500 members of the U.S. armed forces killed in Iraq as their photos air in pairs, the network has said. Their names, ranks, branches of service, hometowns and ages will be listed under the photos. The entire broadcast will be devoted to reading the names.

The 30-minute program airs at 11:35 p.m. New York time on ABC, a unit of the Walt Disney Co. It will include those certified as killed in action by the Pentagon between March 19, 2003, and the date of the broadcast. Because of the list's size, Nightline will only be able to devote seconds to each casualty, executive producer Leroy Sievers said Tuesday.

Sinclair owns stations affiliated with ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, WB and UPN in 39 markets.

In an e-mailed statement, ABC said the broadcast ``is an expression of respect which simply seeks to honor those who have laid down their lives for this country.''

[PaceAdvantage]

They had a televised memorial service for all those who were killed on September 11 where they read the names of those who died (and I think they showed pictures where available). Nobody had a problem with this. Why is there a problem now?

I know that civilians dying on September 11 and military personel fighting and dying in a war in Iraq aren't the same exact situations, but they're the closest example I can think of at the moment.

Yes, I guess one can see this as some sort of political move meant to paint the current administration in a bad light, but then again, those who have died fighting in Iraq should be publicly honored in whatever way we can. If done correctly, I don't see a problem with this.

[ljb]

PA,
Right on! Excellent points made in your reply.

[ljb]

Lefty said
lbj, you go ghoul.

Lefty, could you try to make your point without resorting to name calling? Thank you.

[cj]

I don't see a problem with showing photos and reading the names. This is a lot different than showing a bunch of coffins. I will watch if it is shown here.

[delayjf]

To me, a lot of it has to do with how it is presented. My question is, why do it now, why not wait until Memorial Day, the day we honour our war dead.

[schweitz]

I'm not sure how to take this (I think I know the reasons behind it). I too, question why now? Are we going to continually get updates as we have more casualties?


The 9-11 memorial was after the event that was causing deaths was over and provided closure for some.

[ljb]

schweitz said
Are we going to continually get updates as we have more casualties?
Not if the Sinclair group (strong Bush backers) have anything to say about it!
And this "event" causing the deaths will not be over for years.

[PaceAdvantage]

delayjf and schweitz, good points.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by delayjf
To me, a lot of it has to do with how it is presented. My question is, why do it now, why not wait until Memorial Day, the day we honour our war dead.

It's called May Sweeps ! That is the only reason they are doing it. Ted Koppel has been irrelevant as a newsperson for years now and he needs to remind the world that he is still on TV. He needs to stir up some controversy to boost his ratings and ad revenue. He is using those dead soldiers as pawns in a plan to make more money for his show. End of story. That is why I object. He is a puke for doing it. His contract is up next year and he is worried Letterman is going to take his spot. Just like two years ago when ABC pretty much made it known that if Letterman wanted the slot, he could have it. Remember that?

Letterman has the sweetest deal on TV. He makes 31 million a year to be in third place "behind Nightline" almost every night. Leno kicks both their asses and only makes 21 million a year. Leno has openly discussed the difference in his pay versus Letterman. But Leno has a deal with NBC that allows him to take more time off and still do stand-up in Vegas where he knocks down some coin. Jimmy Kimmel only has his job because Letterman turned ABC down. Koppel is just trying to campaign for his show........end up story.

[Tom]

Nightline origineated as a direct result of the Iran-hostage situation in the late 70's. It was filling a market gap with the need for news about an unprecedented unfolding news story, and the unbelievable US response-much like the one we could see from another Democrate in office-NOTHING!
The show started out to exploit terrorism for dollars and continues to do so to this very day.
ABC-how can you use the word news and ABC in the same sentence?

[schweitz]

In case anybody missed it the producer of Nightline when interviewed said that the inspiration for the televised memorial service was the 1969 Life magazine article that showed the pictures of all the soldiers that were killed in one week of combat in the Vietnam war.
This article has been creditited with galvanizing the American public against the Vietnam war.
It appears that ABC and Nightline have used our dead soldiers for their political agenda.

[PaceAdvantage]

Does anyone else realize that The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer has concluded their broadcast at times with a silent airing of photos, names and ages of military personnel killed in action? This is nothing new, and not a problem until I guess it got wider exposure on a major network.

I have no problem whatsoever with the concept. If the motives aren't pure, that's a whole other ball of crap.