Why waste time offering these bets

[thespaah]

for giggles I looked at Saturday's chart from Ellis Park.
I spotted this....The Pick 6 pool was a whopping $495...
So if anyone can come up with an observation as to why Ellis bothers to offer this wager, go right ahead.
Chart link.
http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/ELP070514USA9.pdf
'Scuse me....That's $448.00

[horses4courses]

Agreed.

Only NY and So Cal are really in a position to maintain decent PK6 pools.
Obviously, big race days like BC, Derby, or Preakness make sense to have one.

Otherwise, I think the smaller circuits should adopt something like the
Rainbow PK6 at GP. Small denominations and jackpots building up have appeal.
It's either that, or not having one at all.

[Robert Fischer]

How much would it cost Ellis and others to hire a knowledgeable consultant to optimize the wagering menu and takeout levels?

[therussmeister]

That pretty much describes all pick 6 pools outside of California and NY. If you want real giggles look at all the pools at Grant's Pass.

[WoxFan]

It is partly the fault of the players. Parx has a pick 6 takeout of 26%.
If people keep on playing it, why lower it?
The only thing that would wake them up is for the players to not bet into them and make the pools zero.

[therussmeister]

It is partly the fault of the players. Parx has a pick 6 takeout of 26%.
If people keep on playing it, why lower it?
The only thing that would wake them up is for the players to not bet into them and make the pools zero.
But people don't play it, that's the whole point of the thread. I remember when Parx started offering the pick 6, it wasn't that many years ago, they did absolutely nothing to promote it. They just made an announcement that they have a pick 6, and that's it. If the pools eventually reach zero, they will simply stop offering the bet.

[RXB]

Pick5 is a much better wagering option than Pick6 for the vast majority of tracks.

[1st time lasix]

Pick5 is a much better wagering option than Pick6 for the vast majority of tracks.**********Amen to that. Particularly if the have a low 15% takeout and fifty cent increment. They get decent pick five pools for Monmouth, Gulfstream, NY, Califormia and anywhere else they promote it. It has become my favorite wager.... Not a big fan of the first five races on the card....but I understand why they do it In NY and CA.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

How much would it cost Ellis and others to hire a knowledgeable consultant to optimize the wagering menu and takeout levels?

Apparently it's a higher cost than the systems programmer's time to activate and maintain the multiple mini-pools of the various wagers.

FWIW, I believe most smaller tracks, if not all tracks, would benefit from reducing the number of different types of wagers offered. Remember the good old days when only one or two gimmicks was the norm? Why do we need Qs and Exactas in the same race? Why do we need tris and supers in the same race? Why do we need rolling doubles and rolling pick 3s/4s spanning the same races?

If I could go to a smaller venue and play a limited number of pools that are of decent size, it will be easier for me to structure my wagers and I won't have to worry about being hosed by a small payoff where someone "pounded" the winning combo with a $20 straight bet.

[Stillriledup]

How much would it cost Ellis and others to hire a knowledgeable consultant to optimize the wagering menu and takeout levels?

If the guy came here and put up a post "tweak Ellis wagering menu" and asked this community nicely to put in suggestions, he could get pretty good info for free.

[horses4courses]

Do US race bettors ever take a look at the easy, and obvious, ways around
an incomplete wagering menu, or small pools with large takeout, when it comes to horizontal wagers?

Say, for example, you wanted to play a PK3 at Podunk Downs in races 4-6.
To your dismay, none is offered at the track. You like 2 horses in R4, to 3 horses in R5, to a single in the last leg.
For a $2 bet, the outlay would have been $12.

Here's the easy fix, and most times you will do just as well as a PK3.
Take your $12, and bet both horses in the first leg to win for $6 each.
One of your horses wins at 5-2. You now have $21 to split in the next race.
A normal PK3 situation would divide your winnings equally on your three
selections.

Letting win bets ride gives you the option of dutching.
If the 3 horses you like are 2-1, 4-1, and 8-1 in the betting, you might
consider doing this. Win bets of $12, $6, and $3 are approximate amounts
you might want to cover. You can alter this if you weight your preferences.

If any of your second leg selections should win, you have between $27-36
to bet on the last race. That shouldn't leave you much out of pocket if
the key horse wins the last leg. You are, also, avoiding a PK3 pool that
usually has at least a 25% takeout. Granted, your win bets have to
endure a 16-20% takeout times three, but the horizontal wager
is not doing you many favors.

Large pools are the bettor's friend when it comes to horizontal wagers.
If the pools are small, they are best avoided.

[tanner12oz]

Agreed.

Only NY and So Cal are really in a position to maintain decent PK6 pools.
Obviously, big race days like BC, Derby, or Preakness make sense to have one.

Otherwise, I think the smaller circuits should adopt something like the
Rainbow PK6 at GP. Small denominations and jackpots building up have appeal.
It's either that, or not having one at all.

oaklawn does ok with its pick 6.. I think the pick 6 can work anywhere but you just gotta tweak the minimum. I actually really like the .50 pick 6 at pid..not something you can play daily but when it gets to 6k that is on par with a 24k pool at a larger track with the lower base...the jackpot wagers are completely stupid imo

[horses4courses]

he jackpot wagers are completely stupid imo

I'm not saying I would ever play them.
At least, not until there is a mandatory payout.

Hard to deny their popularity at GP over the winter.
It's a terrible bet for most players, and yet it's very successful.

[tanner12oz]

I'm a degenerate...i dont want to play a pick 6 twice a year on Gs payout day..need at least a little more action then that

why we can't get something like the magna 5 off the ground again is beyond me...that thing was very cool and I think the handle agreed

[Stillriledup]

I'm a degenerate...i dont want to play a pick 6 twice a year on Gs payout day..need at least a little more action then that

why we can't get something like the magna 5 off the ground again is beyond me...that thing was very cool and I think the handle agreed

I think if there was a national pick 5 with a low takeout, that would be a great thing...they could have one race from 5 different tracks at 14% i have to imagine that would get a pretty nice handle.

[wisconsin]

for giggles I looked at Saturday's chart from Ellis Park.
I spotted this....The Pick 6 pool was a whopping $495...
So if anyone can come up with an observation as to why Ellis bothers to offer this wager, go right ahead.
Chart link.
http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/ELP070514USA9.pdf
'Scuse me....That's $448.00


Wow. Suppose some schlup plays it on his luckiest day ever, takes down the "entire" :lol: pool and collects his $350.

[Track Collector]

I think if there was a national pick 5 with a low takeout, that would be a great thing...they could have one race from 5 different tracks at 14% i have to imagine that would get a pretty nice handle.

Was there not something like this called the Magna 5? Since it is still not around, it must not have generated enough interest.

[Stillriledup]

Was there not something like this called the Magna 5? Since it is still not around, it must not have generated enough interest.

No, mine is different, its not just magna entertainment tracks, the magna five forced you to bet stronach tracks only, my idea would get tracks who have different owners.

[mishka]

....

Say, for example, you wanted to play a PK3 at Podunk Downs in races 4-6.
To your dismay, none is offered at the track. You like 2 horses in R4, to 3 horses in R5, to a single in the last leg.
For a $2 bet, the outlay would have been $12.
....

Thanks for the betting tip. I like the idea of creating your own PK3 using parlay/dutching.

[Track Phantom]

Wow. Suppose some schlup plays it on his luckiest day ever, takes down the "entire" :lol: pool and collects his $350.

The first time I hit a pick 6 was in 2001 at my home track of Canterbury. It was early in the meet and no p6 carryover. I was stupid enough to put in a ticket (not even sure why). I hit it alone as I had two 10-1 winners and at least one more decent price in the sequence. I won $1,200.

Seriously, if I would have had the same handicapping day at any time throughout the year, and on days when the pool was substantially higher, I might have still taken it down myself.

It does suck to have a great day and not have enough in the pools for it to matter.

[tanner12oz]

Was there not something like this called the Magna 5? Since it is still not around, it must not have generated enough interest.


I looked back and saw handles in the 600k range

[thespaah]

How much would it cost Ellis and others to hire a knowledgeable consultant to optimize the wagering menu and takeout levels?
Nothing. They could get one of their existing employees to take on that project.

[thespaah]

Wow. Suppose some schlup plays it on his luckiest day ever, takes down the "entire" :lol: pool and collects his $350.
BINGO!!!!
I amgine this scenario....
" I HIT THE PICK 6!!!!!!!!"""|
Woo Hoo!!!!!
Then the guy finds out he raked down a net profit of $180....

[Rise Over Run]

Forget about Saratoga and Del Mar, there's a $236.04 Pick 6 Carry-Over tomorrow at Parx. Sharpen your pencils!

[Stillriledup]

Forget about Saratoga and Del Mar, there's a $236.04 Pick 6 Carry-Over tomorrow at Parx. Sharpen your pencils!

You know, i don't want to be a conspiracy theorist ;) but these tracks with the very small pick 6s, these bets always seem to be hit way before the carryover builds to something meaningful. When's the last time you saw a 20k carryover at Mountaineer in the pick 6? Carryover would be 400 bucks and the pool would end up being 1800 and you have 6 ten horse fields and there are 2 winners. :D

[Rise Over Run]

You know, i don't want to be a conspiracy theorist ;) but these tracks with the very small pick 6s, these bets always seem to be hit way before the carryover builds to something meaningful. When's the last time you saw a 20k carryover at Mountaineer in the pick 6? Carryover would be 400 bucks and the pool would end up being 1800 and you have 6 ten horse fields and there are 2 winners. :D

Not to start conspiracies, but.....

a) when was the last time Mountaineer offered a Pick 6?

b) when was the last time Mountaineer had a six race sequence with 10 runners in each race?