HEY CHURCHILL MGMT

[ezpace]

Hows that daily $ Handle , your CDI stock , and attendance
doing since you screwd horseplayers on the takeoutTAX
btw what happened in FLORIDA to CALDER
DID YOUR overpaid ELITIST style TaLENT SHOW UP?? :)
couldnt happen to a finer bunch

[RXB]

Hows that daily $ Handle , your CDI stock , and attendance
doing since you screwd horseplayers on the takeoutTAX


Stock price is up by several per cent since they announced the takeout increase. Was $85 then, $91 now.

[OTM Al]

Stock price is up by several per cent since they announced the takeout increase. Was $85 then, $91 now.
They dumped Calder and kept the casino. Also a win. No one cares about attendance outside of marquee days. Some have calculated that they may have in fact increased profit after the takeout increase. Will have to wait for quarterly report to know for sure. People need to quit thinking these people are stupid. They are not.

[JustRalph]

They dumped Calder and kept the casino. Also a win. No one cares about attendance outside of marquee days. Some have calculated that they may have in fact increased profit after the takeout increase. Will have to wait for quarterly report to know for sure. People need to quit thinking these people are stupid. They are not.

You beat me to it. They got exactly what they wanted in Florida. If you can't see that, you're not paying attention.

[Tom]

They are not stupid.
They are also no friend of racing.
I would rather go fishing than ever bet anything at a CDI owned track.
You have to stop rewarding Aholes with your business.

[Robert Goren]

They are not stupid.
They are also no friend of racing.
I would rather go fishing than ever bet anything at a CDI owned track.
You have to stop rewarding Aholes with your business.Nobody and I mean absolutely nobody who owns a Racino is a friend to racing. The sooner everybody concerned figures that out, the better it will be for the sport.

[PhantomOnTour]

Nobody and I mean absolutely nobody who owns a Racino is a friend to racing. The sooner everybody concerned figures that out, the better it will be for the sport.
We know this, and have for a long time.

I, among many, asked the question long ago..."Racing needs casinos, but casinos don't need racing. What happens when the casinos are finally tired of subsidizing racing?"

[Big Sal]

Some have calculated that they may have in fact increased profit after the takeout increase. Will have to wait for quarterly report to know for sure.

A significant takeout increase = long-term Cancer to the horse racing product in exchange for a play at a possible short-term profit.

Tell me how brilliant you think this takeout increase was 5-years from now, 10-years from now, 20-years from now, 50-years from now.

Historically, takeout increases virtually always look genius in the first week or two, debatable after the first month or two, and disastrous after the first year or two.

They are forgotten after that, but the real damage is done many, many years down the line when no one pays attention to them anymore.

Of course, the long-term health of the racing product matters to no one. It's all about getting "the next shot in the arm"

First it's off-track betting and exotic wagering, followed by Internet betting and slot machines, followed by casino style table games in some states like Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

What is next? Prostitution at the track as a means to support the racing product at tracks that otherwise aren't viable even with the aid of slots?

Al, the world does not end in 2015. I don't know why you're the most outspoken supporter against takeout reductions in the entire history of the Internet. Do you actually think they aren't harmful to the Sport in the long-term? Does the long-term health of the sport not matter to you? Do you believe in some sort of Doomsday scenario or something? Is the Lord coming soon -- and we're all going to die!?!? :eek:

I realize it's fun to be a contrarian -- and I realize it's probably fun to take pleasure in the suffering of horseplayers who complain on the Internet -- and I realize it's fun to pretend that the suits in racing are all true geniuses -- but isn't there some other way for you to do this that doesn't involve stumping against takeout reductions?

[NY BRED]

Perhaps payback will occur for those who like to bet CD
and elect to bet this track (near future?) on the Betfair exchange betting website rather than betting the track at the current available internet
and track sites...

Then again, CD will probably be using their political influence
in an attempt to offset this thought

[OTM Al]

Never once have I stumped against takeout reduction. The only thing I have regularly attacked is ridiculous posts like the one that started this thread. There simply is no truth whatsoever contained in it. As I see it, the only way you get leaders of any type of business to do something you want is to show them facts and convince them it is in their best interest do do this thing. Calling them stupid will only make it harder to convince them. And incomplete analysis and spin by those on the players' side doesn't do much for me either.

In this case though, I don't believe what has happened is going to work. Even you have based you argument on the faulty assumption, that CDI cares about and wants to grow the product. It is completely incorrect and leaves you with an argument that does not apply too well. In the time frame you are talking about, they are wanting out of that product, so why should they care about any damage? They will be gone by the time it happens. The boycott people went after the wrong thing. The only race days CDI cares about are on the first Friday and Saturday in May. And all the vast majority of boycotters did on those days was prove that CDI could raise take even further on those days and make even more money.

Yeah, I know I'm giving people an argument they don't want to hear. Tough. Because if the questions I ask here can't be addressed, how do you think there is any hope they can be answered if someone who has power to do something asks them?

[Big Sal]

Yeah, I know I'm giving people an argument they don't want to hear. Tough. Because if the questions I ask here can't be addressed, how do you think there is any hope they can be answered if someone who has power to do something asks them?

I don't think there is any hope at all. I believe the situation is hopeless. I can feel that the situation is hopeless just by seeing who doesn't support takeout reductions. And who doesn't speak out against takeout increases. The right people, entirely don't support it...and that's what is so sad.

The sport will always be around -- purse money will always be around -- especially thanks to slots machines and Internet wagering. Cheerleaders will always be around to tell everyone how great the sport is.

Unfortunately, as long as the takeout is set at Draconian levels, there's no chance at a return to glory days for the sport. This is a sport that once received more year-round coverage from the press, than any other sport.

At one time, the climate was right for a bettor like Pittsburgh Phil to be compared to the legendary J. P. Morgan by the New York Times.

Tell me...which horse-betting lifer with no formal eduction would the New York Times compare to Warren Buffet, today?

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10511193_10202382490715867_6020758066491055411_n.j pg

[OTM Al]

What can I tell you? Things change. Attitudes change. Are things really worse now? Not if you like being able to bet and watch just about any track in the world from the comfort of your home. Not if you prefer high risk high reward bets. It is true that other sports have captured the national attention. The horse is no longer an integral part of life for people as it was in the article and thus it makes sense that horse racing is no longer going to be an integral part of the landscape. So no, it's never going to be like that again. It will be different, but different doesn't mean it has to be worse. And as to you last question, why not you?

[Big Sal]

And as to your last question, why not you?

I laughed.

While Warren Buffett would seem the modern day J. P. Morgan -- If I'm even in the discussion as the best candidate to be the modern day Pittsburgh Phil...that's something racing needs to think about.

And surely, no editorial will ever be written in the New York Times making any kind of serious comparison between myself and Warren Buffett.

You're definitely correct that times do change and the horse is no longer as integral a part of peoples everyday life as it once was. However, I firmly believe that the takeout is at draconian levels today. Society in general views betting on thoroughbred racing to be a suckers game -- and even though it's now infinitely easier and more convenient to get a bet down -- it's not doing nearly enough to return the sport to its rightful position. They don't stop showing Poker on National TV.

Getting back to Pittsburgh Phil. In the eyes of the New York Times, this is what he meant to horse racing:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10489837_10202382812523912_7895134290038374696_n.j pg

[burnsy]

I didn't make a bet there after derby day. I could care less about the "boycott" or how smart CDI is. Its a business decision, they want to raise their rates, I don't want their product.....that simple. Of course, on the internet you will get endless speculation and minutia. One of the problems is people think things will happen "over night" . The world seldom operates this way, even more so in this country. But with the "fast food" way we live..........many expect it. Believe me if the numbers keep spiraling eventually they will feel it and acknowledge it. "Oh, we lost 48 million in handle but we still made a nice profit."........Only a race track would think this is a good business model. Gee, horse racing is doing so well these days......:rolleyes: . Yeah, they bank on that first week. But if you think this won't eventually get to them.......lets see what happens this fall and in the future. Oh, they are so smart....good for them. Not on my coin. Could care less. Look at the racing I get to play for the next 4 months WITHOUT CDI. :) That crap doesn't come close to tomorrow or Saratoga...I'm heart broken. Don't even bother crying about it, ignore them. See what happens in the end.........:lol:

[lamboguy]

Costco has been a smashing success. they constantly focus on how to cut margin's and increase business. it seems to be working, while plenty of other retailer's are closing their doors, they are opening new doors.

[ezpace]

LOL at the STUPID CDI FRIENDS comments
THEY RAISED TAKEOUT IM DONE
THEIR STK SUX
THEY SUCK
END OF STORY
THOSE WHO LIKE THEM
GOOD LUCK WITH THE
MOST DOPED HORSES IN USA
EVEN MAIDENS TO KEEP THOSE
STUD FEES STABLE LOL
THERE IS NO TEST BARN IF YOU GOT
THE GREEN LIGHT THERE

[Tom]

the only way you get leaders of any type of business to do something you want is to show them facts and convince them it is in their best interest do do this thing.

Or walk away from their product and not support them with a single dime.

[ezpace]

Or walk away from their product and not support them with a single dime.
***********************
AMEN

[RXB]

I don't like CDI. I've used the word "carpetbaggers" and I think it's at least somewhat valid in terms of what they've done at Calder and Fair Grounds. I don't like the takeout increase, obviously, and although I didn't stop playing CD entirely I did deprioritize it and only bet about half of what I bet in the CD spring meet last year (and not a dime on Oaks & Derby days).

But CDI is a business. They can make a lot more money in gaming these days than in horse racing. I remember the days when Churchill and Ellis were fighting over dates in summer; Churchill wanted more. Now, I'd expect that CDI would be perfectly content to run a five-day meet for the Oaks & Derby week and bail out of the rest of their racing operation entirely. Could I blame them for that? Not really.

If people in horse racing want their industry to survive and even thrive, they should start improving the product-- namely, the horse. You can't have a >50% plunge in career starts and expect that things are going to go well. We can go on and on about takeout and marketing and such, but I'd bet that if horses were still averaging around 10 starts per year and 40-50 starts in their careers that there would be much more interest in horse racing wagering and ownership. And that's a matter that only breeders and trainers can remedy.

[Fingal]

They dumped Calder and kept the casino. Also a win. No one cares about attendance outside of marquee days. Some have calculated that they may have in fact increased profit after the takeout increase. Will have to wait for quarterly report to know for sure. People need to quit thinking these people are stupid. They are not.

One of our racetrack friends owns a few shares in Churchill from long ago when they were in racetrack acquisition mode. She says the annual report now devotes maybe a 1/4 page to racing & then only to talk about the Derby & Oaks, IMO the racetrack ownership was only a way to gain a foothold so they could start casino type gaming. They'd love to ditch the Fairgrounds along with Arlington, but Duchossois owns too much stock CDI gave him to buy Arlington. Specifically for Calder, these were the figures as to where the $$$ came from. No wonder they dumped Calder as a racing entity.

Calder racing revenue: 2013: $37,527 2012: $66,149 2011: $65,022

Calder casino revenue: 2013: $78,951 2012: $77,864 2011: $82,819

This is from the CD 2013 annual report.

[HUSKER55]

management closed the track today. does anyone know why?

[OTM Al]

I assume you mean Calder

http://www.calderracecourse.com/news/archives/calder-cancels-friday-card-discontinues-simulcasting

[Jeff P]

Calder racing revenue: 2013: $37,527 2012: $66,149 2011: $65,022

Calder casino revenue: 2013: $78,951 2012: $77,864 2011: $82,819

This is from the CD 2013 annual report.There's an untold story here.

Not all of Calder's ill's can be placed on the backs of CDI management. In my opnion, Florida horsemen bear some of the responsibility for Calder's demise.

Most of you are probably aware that a significant takeout increase went into effect in California on Jan 01, 2011. Most of you are also probably aware that numbers for Santa Anita and Golden Gate in the early part of 2011 were not good.

Most of you are probably not aware that back in early 2011 HANA reached out to Calder and asked if they would consider offering lower takeout for their 2011 meet.

Believe it or not, upper management at CDI and Calder GM John Marshall were willing to do an experiment at Calder for their 2011 meet and give sweeping takeout reform a chance.

In retrospect I think they were willing to do this because:

1. CDI had casino revenue flowing in which would offset their downside risk should the experiment fail.

2. CDI hoped to win market share away from California tracks that were floundering as a result of their takeout increase.

Even though the idea had the approval of CDI upper management and Calder GM John Marshall it never got off the ground.

Simply put, the Florida horsemen refused to give the idea a chance.

I was told their thinking went something like this:

"Bigger takeout percentage here means bigger purses here just like it does in California" - which oddly enough - turned out to be the opposite of the way things worked out in California.

All of that said, the Florida horsemen did approve a 12 pct takeout p5.

50¢ Pick Five with Lowest Takeout Rate in the Country Headlines New Wagering Menu at Calder in 2011:
http://www.calderracecourse.com/news/archives/50%C2%A2-pick-five-lowest-takeout-rate-country-headlines-new-wagering-menu-calder-2011

In my opinion, that one low takeout bet wasn't enough to put Calder on the map in a significant way.

Looking back, I can't help but wonder how things might have played out differently... at Calder... and this year at Churchill... and long term for racing in general - had the Florida horsemen shown a little vision and given the idea a chance.


-jp

.

[RXB]

Believe it or not, upper management at CDI and Calder GM John Marshall were willing to do an experiment at Calder for their 2011 meet and give sweeping takeout reform a chance.

Simply put, the Florida horsemen refused to give the idea a chance.



Same old story with the horsemen. Florida or almost anywhere, they don't get it.

[HUSKER55]

I assume you mean Calder

http://www.calderracecourse.com/news/archives/calder-cancels-friday-card-discontinues-simulcasting


Thank you for the link!

[whodoyoulike]

There's an untold story here.

Not all of Calder's ill's can be placed on the backs of CDI management. In my opnion, Florida horsemen bear some of the responsibility for Calder's demise...


Simply put, the Florida horsemen refused to give the idea a chance.

I was told their thinking went something like this:

"Bigger takeout percentage here means bigger purses here just like it does in California" - which oddly enough - turned out to be the opposite of the way things worked out in California.

All of that said, the Florida horsemen did approve a 12 pct takeout p5.

50¢ Pick Five with Lowest Takeout Rate in the Country Headlines New Wagering Menu at Calder in 2011:
http://www.calderracecourse.com/news/archives/50%C2%A2-pick-five-lowest-takeout-rate-country-headlines-new-wagering-menu-calder-2011

In my opinion, that one low takeout bet wasn't enough to put Calder on the map in a significant way.

Looking back, I can't help but wonder how things might have played out differently... at Calder... and this year at Churchill... and long term for racing in general - had the Florida horsemen shown a little vision and given the idea a chance.


-jp

.

Did the horse owners object because the purses were to be reduced?


2. CDI hoped to win market share away from California tracks that were floundering as a result of their takeout increase.

This is why I'm hoping another track offers a "Last Friday and Saturday in April" Gr1 racing for 3yo Fillies and Colts. Screw CDI, their greed is killing their "Golden Goose".

[Tom]

If this plays out right, we will get rid a lot tracks and end up with a few good ones, where horsemen can't control the place and the CUSTOMERS actually matter. We don't have a horse shortage or an owner shortage, we have a race surplus. A high percentage of the product offered at tracks today is garbage.

[cordep17]

Still though Tom, I think it'd be a heck of a lot better if we maintained the tracks we do have in the US, but had them cooperate a lot more effectively. Where does the handle come from if people don't have a nearby outlet to bet and enjoy the races.

I'd also like to see a 10% takeout across the board at all tracks.
:lol: :lol: can't a man dream

[AndyC]

If this plays out right, we will get rid a lot tracks and end up with a few good ones, where horsemen can't control the place and the CUSTOMERS actually matter. We don't have a horse shortage or an owner shortage, we have a race surplus. A high percentage of the product offered at tracks today is garbage.

Nice in theory but it is because of a horse shortage that you see a high percentage of garbage at tracks today.

[Stillriledup]

There's an untold story here.

Not all of Calder's ill's can be placed on the backs of CDI management. In my opnion, Florida horsemen bear some of the responsibility for Calder's demise.

Most of you are probably aware that a significant takeout increase went into effect in California on Jan 01, 2011. Most of you are also probably aware that numbers for Santa Anita and Golden Gate in the early part of 2011 were not good.

Most of you are probably not aware that back in early 2011 HANA reached out to Calder and asked if they would consider offering lower takeout for their 2011 meet.

Believe it or not, upper management at CDI and Calder GM John Marshall were willing to do an experiment at Calder for their 2011 meet and give sweeping takeout reform a chance.

In retrospect I think they were willing to do this because:

1. CDI had casino revenue flowing in which would offset their downside risk should the experiment fail.

2. CDI hoped to win market share away from California tracks that were floundering as a result of their takeout increase.

Even though the idea had the approval of CDI upper management and Calder GM John Marshall it never got off the ground.

Simply put, the Florida horsemen refused to give the idea a chance.

I was told their thinking went something like this:

"Bigger takeout percentage here means bigger purses here just like it does in California" - which oddly enough - turned out to be the opposite of the way things worked out in California.

All of that said, the Florida horsemen did approve a 12 pct takeout p5.

50¢ Pick Five with Lowest Takeout Rate in the Country Headlines New Wagering Menu at Calder in 2011:
http://www.calderracecourse.com/news/archives/50%C2%A2-pick-five-lowest-takeout-rate-country-headlines-new-wagering-menu-calder-2011

In my opinion, that one low takeout bet wasn't enough to put Calder on the map in a significant way.

Looking back, I can't help but wonder how things might have played out differently... at Calder... and this year at Churchill... and long term for racing in general - had the Florida horsemen shown a little vision and given the idea a chance.


-jp

.

Did they not understand the part where lower takeout means more money is wagered? Or, maybe they feel the amounts bet are "Set" amounts and don't fluctuate?

Or, maybe like Jeff Mullins suggested, bettors are "idiots and addicts" and the CRC horsemen figured "why give these idiots a fair break".

Tom Schell is a poster her and a CRC horsemen, maybe he can come in here and splain why the CRC horsemen were anti horseplayer.

[PaceAdvantage]

LOL at the STUPID CDI FRIENDS comments
THEY RAISED TAKEOUT IM DONE
THEIR STK SUX
THEY SUCK
END OF STORY
THOSE WHO LIKE THEM
GOOD LUCK WITH THE
MOST DOPED HORSES IN USA
EVEN MAIDENS TO KEEP THOSE
STUD FEES STABLE LOL
THERE IS NO TEST BARN IF YOU GOT
THE GREEN LIGHT THEREYou're awesome.

[Stillriledup]

You're awesome.

I'm thinking post of year nominee! :D