Tom

[so.cal.fan]

"Big odds drop on a Hol race last night. 9-1 in the gate, 5-1 at the wire. Is this just more California leniency? You cannot make any bets later than the quarter pole? And we mean it"!


I was wondering if anyone back east noticed this the other night.
Tom did!
They pick a 10th race on Friday night.......9/1, from what I heard half way through the race.....crossed the wire....5/1.

This is keeping many of us here in So. Cal. away from the track and away from betting these races here. I am one of them.
Tom, you have pointed out the sorry-ass state of affairs here in So. Cal. racing. Sad commentary and I have to agree with everything you have posted........
We have "questionable" late money coming in on every pool....we have "super trainers" that never lose, especially if they have a speed horse.
We have a CHRB that seems to have a "anything goes" policy in regards to trainers, jockeys, drugs, integrity of pools.
If things don't improve here in the next two years, I plan to move out of state or quit racing.:mad:

[Tom]

I must confess I heard in on the Roger Stein radio show-I was not wathcing Hol races at that un-Godly hour!
So I am assuming it was not late money from the eastern OTBs that caused the drop.
I feel your pain, SoCalFan.....

[Jeff P]

Late money isn't limited to California.

I've been playing Turf Paradise and Emerald and have been paying very close attention to their toteboard odds. I often play from home and use Bris Supertote as my source for odds information. Sometimes I watch race video but often I don't. When I don't it sometimes helps me to focus purely on the numbers.

I can say is that there are often some very significant changes in the odds between post time and the time the results appear on Bris Supertote. And these changes sometimes occur some 7 or 8 minutes after the race has been run.

Not all late money ends up on the race winner. I noticed a race at Turf Paradise last Tuesday where Bris Supertote was showing about 16 grand in the win pool 4 minutes after the race had been run. I had the 6 as a contender but passed because odds at 3 minutes to post were only 5-2. So I just watched the race and saw him finish 3rd.

It took about 10 minutes for the results to finally appear on Supertote. The odds on the 6 kept dropping, all the way down to 4-5. The last flash that I saw showed about 22 grand total in the win pool. What stuck in my mind was that almost all of the 6 grand in late money went on the 6 horse. And yet, amazingly enough, this happened after he had lost the race.

[so.cal.fan]

Tom, I'm glad you were not watching races at 2:00 am!
You would have been suspected of being one of the "whales" betting off-shore/Lewiston, Maine!

Jeff,
don't know how the Bris board shows up money???
We are talking being at the track.....watching the horses break from the gate LIVE.......see a horse break easy, get an easy lead....look at the tote.....see 9/1 and as they hit the stretch with the same horse on the easy lead the odds drop to 5/1.
BS!
Tom and I weren't there at Hollywood, but we both heard it from Aaron Hesz and others who were there watching it live and saw just what I described.

[Figman]

Why doesn't Hollypark just cutoff the source (Lewiston, Maine?) at one minute to post time like the Fair Grounds did, Gulfstream did for a awhile until MEC couldn't take the handle drop anymore and NYRA continues to do?

[Jeff P]

So Cal,

Have seen that happen plenty of times. But I have also seen plenty of winning longshots that drift up in the odds as a result of late money still coming in.

Bottom Line: Until a system is implemented where wagering information is updated in real time, people will continue to suspect foul play.

[plainolebill]

Socal:

I watched the race you are talking about: "Rocket Fire". I was a little perturbed about the drop but not shocked because of the betting pattern. I normally expect a horse in that odds range to drift upwards during the last two minutes but this one just hung there at 8 or 9/1 so. The horse's win wasn't a shocker either, there were a lot of things to like: he ran well last start, was getting lasix and a huge jock change. Plus he looked great. That being said it does look suspicious when a horse gets the lead and the odds drop dramatically.

[so.cal.fan]

Figman,
BECAUSE......they don't want to lose the HANDLE.......they could care less where the money comes from. They don't see it as a negative, just because a few folks like us, question it.
We've been through this discussion before.....and our conclusions are grim.
There is a possibility that money is being laundred by European/Asian organized crime syndicates or even terrorists, at worst.....but the sad thing is, most CEO's of racetracks don't give a damn.........it is not costing them any money (or so it appears)....they want the big handle.....so there you have it.
:(

[JustRalph]

I saw an Ed Bain newsletter a while back that said some places are betting until the quarter pole.........somebody sent it to me....
and I can't remember off the top of my head who it was......but I was somewhat surprised about it. if anybody has that......post it.....

[Blackgold]

I think the race callers at all tracks should also update the odds as the horses move around the track.

[cj]

Racecallers....

Somehow, i don't think that is something their employers would not want to hear during a call!

[BeatTheChalk]

I dont watch the Tote board a lot these days...but most of the
late money I have seen...is on the Favorite. Perhaps things
are really getting out of hand. The track owners wont do a
thing about it ....unless and until things REALLLY GET out of
control. They need all the tote money they can get ...from otb
etc. Racing would not exist in Today's world ..without OFF
track betting. To be fair ... we would all have to watch the board
all the time ...to see how it goes. Dont all raise yo hands at
once :) .. .. ..

[BeatTheChalk]

Can you please tell me the Name of the horse at Hollywood..
and the race number ? thanks ...

[so.cal.fan]

http://equibase.churchilldowns.com/eqbChartResultsDisplay.cfm?TRK=HOL&CY=USA&DATE=04/23/2004&STYLE=HOL

Rocket's Fire- 10th Friday night

[BeatTheChalk]

thanks...

[freeneasy]

i dont understand when a bettor makes a large wager off track in the last minute what prevents that wadger from instantaniously showing up on the tote board? i mean if i send an email or a fax from LA to NY iam supposing that within seconds said information is being received. right? i mean it seems pretty simple to me to set up a sending and receiving system based on this type of premise i mean i thought we were living in the so called age of infomation here. seems like the whole toteboard system recieving information from inside and outside the track can be set up all on a telephone wire or dsl or someting. bunch a lazy daisies we got runn'n the show here.

[BeatTheChalk]

Lived down on the Marina Peninsula for years...and used to
drive to Anita !! We were all nuts then...As for the money coming
late....evidently the tracks say that they havent figured out away
to do it instantly. I guess some day they will ...if it doesnt cost
a little bit of money ( WHICH THEY DONT WANT TO SPEND )

[JustRalph]

The Ed Bain Newsletter I referred to above was sent to me again. I want to quote part of it .......for info.........these were comments about the DRF Handicapping forum in Vegas.

"We broke for lunch and during that time I had an interesting conversation with one of the owners of United Tote regarding the really big bettors in racing that were betting millions. He stated that there are only eight players or consortiums betting on racing in the world and almost all were individuals who headed a group.

I said there is this impression that there are thousands of big players betting millions each day. He laughed and said no believe me I know them all, there are only eight because he has tried to recruit them to bet through United Totes host tracks, but with out much success. He stated this was because they can’t offer the rebates that an off shore rebate shop can. We talked about how these consortiums bet by using computer programs hooked into the tote systems and the advantages they have. He stated that these groups of bettors could not beat the take,without the rebate, they would lose money. I shook my head, and said it would seem to me you would have to show a positive Return On Investment before you could bet millions through a rebate shop. He stated no, they have found a way to beat the system by betting millions each month by enticing off shore rebate shops to take their bets and use their influence and computers, which were hooked directly to the betting pools.
He stated “they also have another advantage other than exploiting betting pools with their computer programs. They have about a ¼ of a mile run before the tote companies betting windows close”. I said “A ¼ of a mile?” He nodded “Yes.” I said, “Now that is a true advantage. Because if you have a computer program that can identify lone speed and let you have a ¼ mile to decide to place a bet, I would label that cheating. That’s an unfair advantage that we as every day players don’t have. If I was a speed player betting lone speed, I only have to get a hit rate percentage on my ability to find lone speed, then I would bet millions.”

Our conversation went from that to how they bet finding betting pools that were undervalued, and to make money they had to have the rebate because without it they weren’t good enough to make a living betting on the horses. I was still thinking about that conversation as the lunch break ended and the next session was “Exotic Wagering Strategies” with Steven Crist, Steve Davidowitz and Barry Meadow with Mike Watchmaker as the moderator. I was interested in this session because Susan is writing a book about this subject. I had never met Barry Meadow’s nor had I heard him speak and I wanted to hear what he had to say. Unfortunately the way the seminars were designed there was no information dispersed in this session or any other, because of the Daily Racing Forms format of a very brief talk then go to Questions and Answers. I heard some complaining by the players that these"

[Tom]

Bill Quirrin saidn in his first book Winning at the Races that you could make a good living if you could bet on the race at the qurter pole-just bet the horse on the lead.
Sounds like this finally came true.
Anyone ever see a study of the horse getting the late big bucks-are they on the lead at the fist call?
Hmmmmm?????