Big M tonight caution advised

[mrroyboy]

Here are some for Meadowlands tonight. All substitute drivers tonight so we should be cautious. However I can't do much worse than yesterday so here they are.

Race 2 No :1: Bambino Hall ML 7-2

Race 5 No :2: Pembroke Dewey ML 9-2 Been following this horse for a while. Maybe finally tonight?

Race 7 No :4: Rock Out ML 3-1 3 yr old has been facing stakes animals. This is sort of a drop in class.

Race 10 No :1: Willie Boots ML 2-1 Best Bet. That last race is better than it looks and Baggett has driven him before.

Race 11 No :5: Ultimate Beachboy ML 5-2 Burke horse and Wilder has driven for Burke before. Tough race but he may be best.

Good luck to all

[LottaKash]

C2, C2, C2, C2, C2....blah, blah, blah.....:ThmbDown:

At least last nite most of the C2 races had some cute little names on them...:D ...instead of just plain vanilla C2....

Imo, the Big-M has turned out to be the biggest bore of all the racetracks..(I am not happy or proud to say that either)...

I would certainly feel different if they raced more than 2 nites a week, but Class "C" horses trying to pass as Class "A" horses at a Class "A" track, just doesn't make it with me......

[dannyhill]

Race 4 #7 Wheelaway 3/1 will be to short of a price to bet to win for me but his last effort is better than looks. Locked in thru the stretch and with an aggressive drive will get the job done. Solid use in picks i believe.

[dannyhill]

Race 4 #7 Wheelaway 3/1 will be to short of a price to bet to win for me but his last effort is better than looks. Locked in thru the stretch and with an aggressive drive will get the job done. Solid use in picks i believe.
He was not aggressive away from the gate, yet ended up second over and was dreadful.

[CHeCK EyE]

C2, C2, C2, C2, C2....blah, blah, blah.....:ThmbDown:

At least last nite most of the C2 races had some cute little names on them...:D ...instead of just plain vanilla C2....

Imo, the Big-M has turned out to be the biggest bore of all the racetracks..(I am not happy or proud to say that either)...

I would certainly feel different if they raced more than 2 nites a week, but Class "C" horses trying to pass as Class "A" horses at a Class "A" track, just doesn't make it with me......

Who said they are trying to pass C class horses as A's? The Meadowlands is doing what they can with what they are given.

[cmp92]

C2, C2, C2, C2, C2....blah, blah, blah.....:ThmbDown:

At least last nite most of the C2 races had some cute little names on them...:D ...instead of just plain vanilla C2....

Imo, the Big-M has turned out to be the biggest bore of all the racetracks..(I am not happy or proud to say that either)...

I would certainly feel different if they raced more than 2 nites a week, but Class "C" horses trying to pass as Class "A" horses at a Class "A" track, just doesn't make it with me......
I think the Grand Circuit has something to do with this. Owners and trainers are sending their top horses elsewhere to race, leaving the cheaper horses at the Big M. Just look at the drivers they had on Saturday. I would think owners and trainers would rather wait until all the usual guys are home.

[LottaKash]

Who said they are trying to pass C class horses as A's? The Meadowlands is doing what they can with what they are given.

I says:...

Listen please, and I mean this very sincerely, I was at M1 when they first opened the doors, and it was my home track for many, many years....It is, and was my first love of all the numerous tracks that I have played at, and visitied...Plus, I have been playing this game for 54 years, and I know all about the history of the M1 and it's legacy....The Meadowlands was once the classiest of all the tracks anywhere....Meaning if you wanted to go to the Bigs, you had to race at M1....Not anymore....I can name a half a dozen other tracks that have M1 beat for classier horses....Sure, there are still the big races, and I am quite glad of that, but that's it for me...

Bottom line, I don't play there much anymore...Sure maybe a little, but nothing on a scale as I used to, or play at other tracks these days...

Simply put, I am not a grouchy, cynical old man....I want my old M1 back, not this conveyor belt of C2 horses....How about a c3 or a B3 to spice things up a bit...There are class differences, even if subtle, and that is my "chief complaint"..... Somebody thought that trying the ABC system of classifications is the way to go....Not me, tho....I play at tracks where "TRAINERS DECIDE WHERE THEIR HORSES BELONG", and not the race-sec...

That's all....

[mrroyboy]

John I agree as always but even more this time. I should have practiced what I preached about caution. Poor horses mixed with drivers that haven't driven them before is a disaster waiting to happen.
This is supposed to be Meadowlands Championship Meet. C horses don't cut it.

[pandy]

I loved last Saturday's card and I had a really good night. I don't care who drives the horses, in fact, it's probably better with the lesser name drivers, better prices. My top pick Dragon Lore paid $24.60 with Greg Merton. This horse was used hard last week but two back he won what may have been the biggest key race of the year as the two classy horses he beat both came back with very fast wins. Aslan $18.40 was an overlay, I picked him second. Overall, it was a very good betting card. The drivers made no difference, all of the horses that figured to win or race well did.

[CHeCK EyE]

Kash, I totally understand. But times change. Something had to be done and they tried the ABC class of racing. Handle has been up considering where it was. That may not say much but trying something is a step in the right direction.

[imofe]

I have to agree with LK on this one. Maybe it is just the way we handicap. One of the 1st things I do when looking at a horse is to ask myself why the trainer entered the horse in this class. Sometimes the answer is simple and sometimes there is more to it. There are many trainers at various tracks that tip their hand when they move the horse up or down. Take that out of the equation and I feel lost at times.

[pandy]

A trainer can't move a horse up or down unless he or she puts the horse in for a tag. The reason why the Big M went to the letter class was to avoid the odds on favorites you get when a horse is racing poorly in a high class and suddenly drops to the bottom. I don't really think the reason for the increase in handle has much to do with the ABC, I think they just need full fields and they'll do well because the majority of bettors simply like non speed biased racing and good payoffs and all of the two turn tracks have good handle because of that. You have a speed bias and you have a lot of odds on favorites and no handle. It's as simple as that.

[imofe]

[QUOTE=pandy]A trainer can't move a horse up or down unless he or she puts the horse in for a tag.

Not true. Horses can be placed from claimers into NW of x amount in last 5 or 6 starts and vice versa. Horses can also be placed in NW of so many races lifetime to NW of x amount in last 5 or 6 and vice versa also.

[pandy]

[QUOTE=pandy]A trainer can't move a horse up or down unless he or she puts the horse in for a tag.

Not true. Horses can be placed from claimers into NW of x amount in last 5 or 6 starts and vice versa. Horses can also be places in NW of so many races lifetime to NW of x amount in last 5 or 6 and vice versa also.

Not really place, I mean, they have to fit the conditions. I don't see a lot of difference with the letter class. If you have a horse that's racing poorly in B-2 it drops to C-1. If it continues to race poorly, it drops to C-2. If the horse was racing in conditions it would go in class pretty much the same way.

I mean, if your horse is eligible for NW25000, you cannot put the horse any lower. You're only option is claimers.

[imofe]

A good trainer claims a horse for 8K. The horse is competitive but has not won in the last two races. The trainer puts the horse in a 15K - 20K claimer the first time out. Now I have to think why is this horse in this race? My thought process is that the new trainer believes that this horse under his supervision is not classified properly. This horse wins two in a row in 15K - 20K. Horses that are claimed at Mohawk or Woodbine are sometimes sent to smaller tracks and placed in preferred 2 or 3. When they come back to the bigger track, I need to see what race they are put in, especially with a good trainer. I can not see how this is anything like a race secretary placing a horse in what he feels is the right class.

[thespaah]

I says:...

Listen please, and I mean this very sincerely, I was at M1 when they first opened the doors, and it was my home track for many, many years....It is, and was my first love of all the numerous tracks that I have played at, and visitied...Plus, I have been playing this game for 54 years, and I know all about the history of the M1 and it's legacy....The Meadowlands was once the classiest of all the tracks anywhere....Meaning if you wanted to go to the Bigs, you had to race at M1....Not anymore....I can name a half a dozen other tracks that have M1 beat for classier horses....Sure, there are still the big races, and I am quite glad of that, but that's it for me...

Bottom line, I don't play there much anymore...Sure maybe a little, but nothing on a scale as I used to, or play at other tracks these days...

Simply put, I am not a grouchy, cynical old man....I want my old M1 back, not this conveyor belt of C2 horses....How about a c3 or a B3 to spice things up a bit...There are class differences, even if subtle, and that is my "chief complaint"..... Somebody thought that trying the ABC system of classifications is the way to go....Not me, tho....I play at tracks where "TRAINERS DECIDE WHERE THEIR HORSES BELONG", and not the race-sec...

That's all....
I cannot agree more.
NY had the classified system and they dumped it for conditioned races.
I cannot believe Gural and other track managers decided to fall for the tragedy of repeating a bad thing and expecting a different result.
BTW, the Grand Circuit deal and other factors are not what is costing M! good racing stock.
IMO, the number one issue is the tracks in PA and NY are killing the Meadowlands with their slots inflated purses.
Meadowlands is literally paying early 1980's purses.
Of course horsemen will race elsewhere.
Why go to Meadowlands and race for $11k, when they can go to YR or Pocono and race for twice that?

[pandy]

My take on this is that the conditions are probably the best, but you need a creative racing secretary. Some tracks have conditions that are too limited. But, my main opinion on this is that it doesn't make much of a difference.

Tracks that have better horses have higher purses. Personally, I don't see any advantage, from a betting standpoint, to races with higher class horses. I find more overlays and better bets in the middle class range, which is what the Meadowlands has, and I can also show a profit at the tracks that have lower class horses.

[cmp92]

I cannot agree more.
NY had the classified system and they dumped it for conditioned races.
I cannot believe Gural and other track managers decided to fall for the tragedy of repeating a bad thing and expecting a different result.
BTW, the Grand Circuit deal and other factors are not what is costing M! good racing stock.
IMO, the number one issue is the tracks in PA and NY are killing the Meadowlands with their slots inflated purses.
Meadowlands is literally paying early 1980's purses.
Of course horsemen will race elsewhere.
Why go to Meadowlands and race for $11k, when they can go to YR or Pocono and race for twice that?
Very good point. Even Ron Pierce decided to race at Yonkers earlier this year instead of the Meadowlands. The condition races on a weekend have extremely generous purses and the Open goes for $40,000+. I believe Yonkers has raised purses twice this year.

[CHeCK EyE]

Doesn't M1 A1/FFA class race for $30K? That's not THAT big a difference. And it's definitely the purses that hold the better horses away from the Meadowlands. Meadowlands doesn't have slot machines and are very limited in where they get their purse money from.

[LottaKash]

My take on this is that the conditions are probably the best, but you need a creative racing secretary. .

Pandy, you made my whole point in this discussion....You have conceded that the "Race Secretary" has a "Heavy Hand" in the handicapping process....(Same with other Gural owned tracks, Tioga and Vernon, with their phony help the rookie "Miracle Mile" classifications....

I believe that a very good portion of the horses that are running in the C2 classes, which along with the NW's 1 & 2's that dominate the quality of the fields currently at M1, should be in the D2 class, and many of the others belong in cheap claimers as well....

I agree about the middle of the road races being where the juice may be, but I don't think that their are as many of those at Big-M as you have alluded to...Lately I have seen many horses that couldn't make the C2 scene @ M1, ship out to lesser tracks, and not do well there either...

My betting history reports that my money makers lie in the "Conditioned Races" ....So, I like them, and I find all sorts of overlays in the conditioned races at "ALL" the tracks....What I don't like about the conditioned races AT M1, is that they are all controlled by the "race-sec"....And I would like to see the claiming (unreliable) horses race as claimers and not masquerade as conditioned-class horses....That is a big mistake on M1, imo....

I don't play many claimers, sure I have 3 or 4 pet angles that have worked for a long time now, but when they are not there, I just don't play claimers...Same with NW's of 1, 2 , 3 races, very unreliable, still, I know that they are, and have traditionally been, part of the game for a very long time, and for very obvious reasons (horses need practice before they go full time Conditioned or Claimer)(and some seem to never get there, haha)...

So, my bottom line is, depending on the track I am looking at, I will only look at the Claimers and the NW's races only as a last resort, that is, until I am finished looking at the races that really interest me, the conditioned races, and are the ones where the majority of my best hits and scores come from.....

So, maybe some would ask why I am going on about this ?...It is because that I love M1, BUT, I don't need any handicapping help from the Racing-Sec, that's all...I have spent too many years getting to this advanced stage of my handicapping, and my handicapping as it is today, is very reliable and repeatable, and the "race-sec" has disarmed and rendered my insights into finding "true class" plays to almost useless at M1, in that regard...Or at least not nearly as good as it used to be there...

Hey, if worst came to worst, I could do ok at M1, but until something is changed and worst hasn't come to worst yet, I don't have much interest in M1 anymore....But hey that is just me...:cool:

And, Pandy, I have only the utmost respect for your knowledge and prowess as a top flight handicapper, but still, without trying to denigrate those aspects about you, I have seen your picks on many a nite @M1, once the results are in, that your top 3 or so picks hadn't done too well either....(And, I know full well how hard it is putting your picks out in advance in a "pick and pray" format and expect great results, as well) Maybe all those c2's & c1's may have something to do with it ?...

Successful handicapping is hard, and it has always been so, and time after time, and year after year I have been coming back for more, but I just can't stand it now when a track and his race-sec thinks that I need their help in "my winning and losing", after coming all this way....

[Garrigan]

I agree with Pandy. Yes, the racing secretary has a lot to do with the condition races(a,b & c). But IMO he is absolutely doing something right. The payouts have been very good at that level and I have enjoyed the racing. I definitely have problems with other tracks trying to do the same thing. I'm giving credit to the racing secretary up to this point.