Two 22 year olds interested in racing.

[iceknight]

Yesterday I met two strangers at a starbucks parking lot (22 yr olds who just graduated college and are moving on to medical school) with an NY plate. They were fresh alums from psu so we ended up grabbing a beer at a nearby bar and in the course of chatting, I heard one was from somewhere in Long Island. Talk turned to Belmont etc..

They were both actually interested in racing and learning more about races, methods and the sport in general. They were asking me what are other important races than the Triple Crown races. I rarely meet people interested in races here in Central PA, let alone people interested in knowing more and listening with rapt attention about Shoemaker mile, pacific classic, travers, JCGC etc. One of them is from Syracuse area so we might end up doing a Saratoga meeting. :)

But this is still so rare that someone is interested for more than 2 mins in racing.

[horses4courses]

Yesterday I met two strangers at a starbucks parking lot (22 yr olds who just graduated college and are moving on to medical school) with an NY plate. They were fresh alums from psu so we ended up grabbing a beer at a nearby bar and in the course of chatting, I heard one was from somewhere in Long Island. Talk turned to Belmont etc..

They were both actually interested in racing and learning more about races, methods and the sport in general. They were asking me what are other important races than the Triple Crown races. I rarely meet people interested in races here in Central PA, let alone people interested in knowing more and listening with rapt attention about Shoemaker mile, pacific classic, travers, JCGC etc. One of them is from Syracuse area so we might end up doing a Saratoga meeting. :)

But this is still so rare that someone is interested for more than 2 mins in racing.

A very rare breed. The sport could use thousands more like them, too.
Tracks should have free admission for all between ages of 21-30, imo.

[Greyfox]

But this is still so rare that someone is interested for more than 2 mins in racing.

Yes it is rare, although I have a grand- nephew that is interested.

Otherwise, our Sports Bar- O.T.B. where I place my bets is riddled with grey haired craggy faced men, and the occasional elderly lady.

When youth aren't coming into any activity, that activity is ultimately doomed.
At the moment, hockey and golf are both worried about the drop in young participants taking up those games.
Horse racing has a lot more to be worried about.

[Robert Goren]

Don't worry, the industry will likely find a way to chase them away from the game before they get hooked.

[GaryG]

If I was 22 and know what I know now I would not bother with it.

[tanner12oz]

I started playing heavy around that age

[Dan Montilion]

I started being heavy around that age...

[JustRalph]

If I was 22 and know what I know now I would not bother with it.

Yep, they obviously are mentally incapacitated. They are going into medicine. They want to learn to play the ponies. They need an evaluation at the nearest mental facility

[proximity]

i was always surprised penn national or Pocono (or whoever) didn't have an off track in the state college area. seemed like it would have done better than the ones that they closed in Lycoming and Johnstown? i'm sure there was a good reason??

[ronsmac]

i was always surprised penn national or Pocono (or whoever) didn't have an off track in the state college area. seemed like it would have done better than the ones that they closed in Lycoming and Johnstown? i'm sure there was a good reason??
Those student loans are hard to pay back when you play into a 30% takeout. Maybe it's for the best they didn't put one there. There aren't too many college kids that can bob and weave and pick their spots like Proximity.

[iceknight]

i was always surprised penn national or Pocono (or whoever) didn't have an off track in the state college area. seemed like it would have done better than the ones that they closed in Lycoming and Johnstown? i'm sure there was a good reason?? Yeah I dont know either... but the owner of Hansen did put himself thru medical school by playing the ponies.

Oh for the record, I am 36 and started playing from when Shackleford won the Preakness

[thaskalos]

Yep, they obviously are mentally incapacitated. They are going into medicine. They want to learn to play the ponies. They need an evaluation at the nearest mental facility
There is no upside to this game at this point...and young players are better off elsewhere.

[rastajenk]

i was always surprised penn national or Pocono (or whoever) didn't have an off track in the state college area. seemed like it would have done better than the ones that they closed in Lycoming and Johnstown? i'm sure there was a good reason??
Maybe Papa Joe didn't want it there, and that was that. I wouldn't be surprised if he had that kind of power.

[Capper Al]

There is no upside to this game at this point...and young players are better off elsewhere.

I so much agree. Playing the stock market index funds is almost a no brainer. The government has to guarantee that most major index fund companies cross the finish and pay instead of only one horse. Playing single stock picks becomes more like horse racing, but because of the takeout horse racing has a negative expectation while stocks have a positive expectation. The index funds are almost a sure thing unless your timing is way off and you get in before a bubble burst.

[PhantomOnTour]

There is no upside to this game at this point...and young players are better off elsewhere.
Do you still play?

[Dahoss2002]

Yesterday I met two strangers at a starbucks parking lot (22 yr olds who just graduated college and are moving on to medical school) with an NY plate. They were fresh alums from psu so we ended up grabbing a beer at a nearby bar and in the course of chatting, I heard one was from somewhere in Long Island. Talk turned to Belmont etc..

They were both actually interested in racing and learning more about races, methods and the sport in general. They were asking me what are other important races than the Triple Crown races. I rarely meet people interested in races here in Central PA, let alone people interested in knowing more and listening with rapt attention about Shoemaker mile, pacific classic, travers, JCGC etc. One of them is from Syracuse area so we might end up doing a Saratoga meeting. :)

But this is still so rare that someone is interested for more than 2 mins in racing.
Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need more!! :cool:

[turninforhome10]

Yep, they obviously are mentally incapacitated. They are going into medicine. They want to learn to play the ponies. They need an evaluation at the nearest mental facility
Or they need to be convinced that once they start making some serious coin, that they need to be owners. Do they need a sales agent? :lol: :lol:

[thaskalos]

Do you still play?

Sure I play. But I don't recommend it to others...

[traynor]

I think perception is dictated by one's surroundings, and the areas one visits. If one only views betting areas filled with grumpy old men in long coats, one tends to view all bettors as grumpy old men in long coats.

If one viewed wagering venues in college towns located in sports bars (in contrast) one is likely to assume that many (if not a majority) of bettors are twenty-somethings. Try the simulcast outlet in Tempe, AZ (near Arizona State University) for a completely different view of horse race bettors.

One very noticeable (and very refreshing) difference between younger bettors and older bettors is that the notion of "sport" or "game" is missing from the younger bettors. Some of the very best race analysts (as well as the best blackjack players) I have ever encountered were (foreign) graduate students studying on visas that prevented them from working.

When the options are a) stay in the dorm and study all weekend or, b) party in Vegas and come back on Monday with pockets full of cash, it doesn't take much to understand the motivation. Profit, pure and simple. They don't gamble to gamble. They gamble to win. I like that.

[KingChas]

If I was 22 and know what I know now I would not bother with it.

Why?
You could have bet the farm on Giacomo and Mine that Bird........ :D

[OTM Al]

Yes it is rare, although I have a grand- nephew that is interested.

Otherwise, our Sports Bar- O.T.B. where I place my bets is riddled with grey haired craggy faced men, and the occasional elderly lady.

When youth aren't coming into any activity, that activity is ultimately doomed.
At the moment, hockey and golf are both worried about the drop in young participants taking up those games.
Horse racing has a lot more to be worried about.

I think this point is extremely overdone and not all that correct. Racing has always been an activity that attracts older people. It has never been a young persons game. Sure some get into it, but they have always been in the minority. With the baby boom generation reaching retirement, this is a huge group that should be wooed to racing rather than slots.

[JustRalph]

this is a huge group that should be wooed to racing rather than slots.

Great idea, but how do you get past the obvious? Retiring baby boomers know one thing about horse racing. It's crooked. You will never get past that with an older generation. They also understand value. Horse racing loses again.

[OTM Al]

Great idea, but how do you get past the obvious? Retiring baby boomers know one thing about horse racing. It's crooked. You will never get past that with an older generation. They also understand value. Horse racing loses again.

I don't think this is any more true for old than young. Point is, you can find articles from 50 years ago asking the same questions about where the young people are. It has always been a game that attracted older people. This is a prime time to do so but it seems no one is really trying.

[Moto Pete]

Iceknight I don't know you and this is the first post I've read from you. I'm new to the board. Are you a hot chick? That would explain a lot. :lol:

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I bitch as much about the sport as the next guy, being a disgruntled, bitter old-timer that first started playing the ponies seriously when I was 24. Horse racing has lots of issues and TONs of upside for improvements.

But when it comes to gambling and entertainment, it's still one of the best ways to invest your time. Especially if you're a night owl, and can play the card from Sha Tin. There may be more lucrative ways to gamble or invest (poker, sports wagering, stocks), but none that are as interesting or challenging, IMHO.....

If I die with more than two dollars in my pocket, I'll be disappointed with my poor bankroll management skills.

[biggestal99]

There is no upside to this game at this point...and young players are better off elsewhere.

I'd say to buck the high takeout in pari-mutual wagering w/o rebates is a losing game.

However the demographics on betfair are greatly slanted towards the young.

Allan

[iceknight]

Great idea, but how do you get past the obvious? Retiring baby boomers know one thing about horse racing. It's crooked. You will never get past that with an older generation. They also understand value. Horse racing loses again. I have had more than one baby boomer mention those exact words to me.

It is interesting though, the comment about young people on visas that go to Casinos to gamble. A decent percentage of them are serious bettors (especially after they win at a 5-1 range on 50-100 dollars plays in casinos), so yes, if they could be interested in horseracing, it would be of benefit.

[Overlay]

Great idea, but how do you get past the obvious? Retiring baby boomers know one thing about horse racing. It's crooked. You will never get past that with an older generation. They also understand value. Horse racing loses again.
I'm not saying that racing is totally clean, and that's something that needs to be overcome or dealt with. But value is still a key factor working in racing's favor compared to most other forms of wagering. (That's what first got this now-60-year-old hooked on racing when I was younger than 22.) In my opinion, understanding how handicapping has skill and value components that differentiate it from games of pure chance, where all players face an unchanging negative expectation on each and every wager that can never be overcome except through blind luck and where everyone will inevitably lose if they play long enough, could only work to racing's benefit.

[Greyfox]

---------------------------------------------------------------------- It has always been a game that attracted older people. .

At one time it attracted younger people as well.
Since the 1960's interest from younger people has been dropping every decade.
Not that many "old newbies" are showing up.

Here's a photo from Woodbine in the 1920's. Enlargement of it shows all age groups - young and old, mainly men.

http://www.manyhattyreturns.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mens-horseracing-hats.jpg

Here's Woodbine in 2010

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_A7iWRCato7I/TTj3F1jyEUI/AAAAAAAAF_4/osieko2IEbk/s1600/a_happy%2Bessence.jpg

[thaskalos]

I'm not saying that racing is totally clean, and that's something that needs to be overcome or dealt with. But, as far as I'm concerned, value is still a key factor working in racing's favor compared to most other forms of wagering. Understanding how handicapping has skill and value components that differentiate it from games of pure chance where all players face an unchanging negative expectation on each and every wager that can never be overcome except through blind luck, and where everyone will inevitably lose if they play long enough, could only work to racing's benefit.

That's been the game's pitch for years. All gamblers already understand that horse racing is one of the few potentially "beatable" gambling games...but the vast majority of the gamblers shun horse racing anyway. There is a stigma attached to horse-race betting...and the game hasn't done enough to address its negative image among the gamblers.

Slogans are not enough; gamblers respond to what they actually experience. And to the vast majority of them, horse racing is just a bad gamble...no matter what the industry slogans say.

[Milleruszk]

It is hard to believe that our game exists at all if you read some of these posts. For 99% of us playing the horses is a hobby. It is a thinking man's game and as such can not compete with the mindless slot machine. The people on this board are supposed to be fans yet all you hear is complaints.

[BettinBilly]

OP:

Thanks for posting the fact that you met some younger potential Horseplayers.

I was in my Mid 20's when I really became interested in truly playing the sport. Great to hear that a few new 20 somethings may actually be mildly interested in playing.

Unlike a few players here, I would not tell them NOT to play. I would tell them not to expect miracles, but to go ahead if they wish and ENJOY BETTING ON THE SPORT. No matter how good thier handicapping evolves, they will lose at times. It is gambling. But to me, it's an addictive and fun sport. I never made a living at it. It was simply a huge hobby of mine. Would I do it all over again? ABSOFREAKINLUTELY. I still love it.

[iceknight]

OP:

Thanks for posting the fact that you met some younger potential Horseplayers.

I was in my Mid 20's when I really became interested in truly playing the sport. Great to hear that a few new 20 somethings may actually be mildly interested in playing.

Unlike a few players here, I would not tell them NOT to play. I would tell them not to expect miracles, but to go ahead if they wish and ENJOY BETTING ON THE SPORT. No matter how good thier handicapping evolves, they will lose at times. It is gambling. But to me, it's an addictive and fun sport. I never made a living at it. It was simply a huge hobby of mine. Would I do it all over again? ABSOFREAKINLUTELY. I still love it.The way I see it.. to attract younger people, especially those with longer commute time to (racing) venues due to the nature of the modern city/suburban structure, longer work week hours etc.. racing needs to do these things:
1- Cut back on weekday racing, then
2- Have larger fields (better betting interests) on weekends.
3- Keep people more engaged by offering combination of on track and then staggering offtrack (ie simulcast) betting options. this means having constructive discussions with other track managements to stagger times of (at least) the key races.
4- Lower the takeout so that people end up getting more money to play with from wins (increase churn).
5- Not restrict ADWs etc.
Most importantly...
6- Ban old players who whine all the time and discourage new players from tracks :lol:

[proximity]

It is hard to believe that our game exists at all if you read some of these posts. For 99% of us playing the horses is a hobby. It is a thinking man's game and as such can not compete with the mindless slot machine. The people on this board are supposed to be fans yet all you hear is complaints.

when anything lags ridiculously far behind its potential, fans are going to complain. and in gap between potential and performance this game is the equivalent of the 2013 Houston Texans. 14-2 talent, 2-14 record.

[tzipi]

It is hard to believe that our game exists at all if you read some of these posts. For 99% of us playing the horses is a hobby. It is a thinking man's game and as such can not compete with the mindless slot machine. The people on this board are supposed to be fans yet all you hear is complaints.

Slot machines are for older people. I'm younger and younger people invest their money today more than ever. The market, real estate, etc. That's where my money goes also. Maybe some football game gambling, but today is a different world. The people I know would never play horse racing on a daily basis. Most see all the drug news, etc in the papers and the return a year does not even compare to what investment hobby, returns.
There's a reason Atlantic City is getting killed these days and is basically giving away rooms for free. The younger crowds are staying away mostly. Aqueduct casino is mostly filled with older people whenever I'm there, not young guys and girls.

Racing is living in a low customer return, us first, customer second world. It's had it's day. I love racing(obviously) and grew up with it from my father, but I'm just being honest. There's way better money return investments and hobbies out there. Racing caused its own demise I'd say.

Again, I LOVE racing but just being honest.

[traynor]

Again, it may be a simple matter of perception. It seems some expect betting on horse races to be a lifelong obsession to be meaningful or significant, in the manner of other addictions. That is, "real bettors" are those who bet every day, bet large amounts, and have very little real life other than horse racing (or other types of gambling).

Younger bettors may tend to look at it as something interesting, profitable, and fun--but not necessarily to the exclusion of all other activities in their lives for some endless period of time. Of the group (of bettors) I was associated with in graduate school (mainly computer science and management information systems majors), most are too involved in their careers or other activities to devote much time to betting on horse races. Several still bet more or less full-time, and one is off in Hong Kong tending apps for a betting syndicate.

It may be that the approach to "enticing" new bettors is flawed. That is, rather than expecting them to make a major life change to participate in an activity that (unless one is winning, and winning often) most find incredibly boring, it may be more useful to reduce the handicapping process to a more manageable set that can be easily learned, and easily implemented. If a group of (mostly) inexperienced students can do it, it should be a slam dunk for those with more experience.

[Bettowin]

I so much agree. Playing the stock market index funds is almost a no brainer. The government has to guarantee that most major index fund companies cross the finish and pay instead of only one horse. Playing single stock picks becomes more like horse racing, but because of the takeout horse racing has a negative expectation while stocks have a positive expectation. The index funds are almost a sure thing unless your timing is way off and you get in before a bubble burst.

Ask 100 college aged kids what an index fund is and get back to me if you get over 10 positives:)

[shouldacoulda]

If I was 22 and know what I know now I would not bother with it.
Me too! But seeing as how I'm already a craggy faced, gray haired old fart, I figure what the heck.

[thaskalos]

It is hard to believe that our game exists at all if you read some of these posts. For 99% of us playing the horses is a hobby. It is a thinking man's game and as such can not compete with the mindless slot machine. The people on this board are supposed to be fans yet all you hear is complaints.
Horse racing is primarily a gambling game...and gambling games are best judged by the profit potential that they offer to the players who participate in them. Horse racing no longer measures up in that regard.

If a player has what it takes to make a profit betting horses...then he is short-changing himself by remaining a horseplayer. There are greener pastures out there...for the hard-working, disciplined, intelligent player.

[Robert Goren]

It is hard to believe that our game exists at all if you read some of these posts. For 99% of us playing the horses is a hobby. It is a thinking man's game and as such can not compete with the mindless slot machine. The people on this board are supposed to be fans yet all you hear is complaints.If you had been to a simulcast center when simulcasting first started and visited one now, you'd know why we are so pessimistic. Bettors were packed like sardines in the beginning. Now days they are running at a third of capacity if that. And the age of most of the people there is within 10 years of 72. The only thing falling faster than the number of bettors is the number of thoroughbreds being born each year.

[BettinBilly]

Again, it may be a simple matter of perception. It seems some expect betting on horse races to be a lifelong obsession to be meaningful or significant, in the manner of other addictions. That is, "real bettors" are those who bet every day, bet large amounts, and have very little real life other than horse racing (or other types of gambling).....


Probably so. To me, it's like any other passion or hobby. Everyone has different interests. IF you view being a Horseplayer as a passion or hobby, it's a matter of interest, ongoing excitement and enthusiasm in the sport, and excitement for it on-going.

I suppose it depends on expectations and why you are getting in to the sport. When I watched "Horseplayers" this Spring on Esquire, I thought, "How many guys are going to watch this, jump into being a full time Horseplayer, and expect to make a killing at it?" At times, I thought the show made winning at betting Thoroughbreds look easier than it is. We all know it's not, but I think the chances of a younger bettor diving into the sport with thoughts of grandeur is unrealistic. Getting into the game for sport, excitement, and to understand handicapping can be fun and a life long challenge. I read somewhere that handicapping Horse Racing is brain stimulating enough that some theorize it may help the aging keep mentally sharp.

I'll let you know if that's true in another 20 years. ;)

[Capper Al]

Ask 100 college aged kids what an index fund is and get back to me if you get over 10 positives:)

You're right. I didn't appreciate this until old age myself.

[PoloUK6108]

I'm 22, been playing since I was 15. I'll tell you this much, if more ppl my age had an interest in racing I'd be a lot more popular and picking up girls would be a simple task :D

[glengarry]

I would tell those future physicians to quit school now, get their tuition back, and start wagering for a living. I see hundreds of guys at the races that have no known source of income, are below the age to qualify for social security, yet are firing away race after race, day after day. And these guys don't even have a college degree. I want these guys to run the nation's economy. To heck with Suzie Orman, the guys I know that never work yet live at the track are the ones that deserve face time on PBS giving financial advice. I wish they would teach me their secrets.

[thaskalos]

I would tell those future physicians to quit school now, get their tuition back, and start wagering for a living. I see hundreds of guys at the races that have no known source of income, are below the age to qualify for social security, yet are firing away race after race, day after day. And these guys don't even have a college degree. I want these guys to run the nation's economy. To heck with Suzie Orman, the guys I know that never work yet live at the track are the ones that deserve face time on PBS giving financial advice. I wish they would teach me their secrets.

Search a little deeper...and you'll find out that they own nothing but the cloths on their back.

[Bubbles]

I don't post much anymore (simply out of being so busy working in the sport), but this thread piqued my interest. Longtime PA visitors will tell you I've visited this board since I was a teenager (sheesh, I was at the original PA gathering at Saratoga), and the relative lack of younger people interested in this game is a definite issue.

There are a number of reasons for this, but something that hasn't really been talked about to this point is the lack of fan education in the game. If I'm a total novice, the Daily Racing Form looks like Greek, and you're telling me I'm supposed to be able to pick a winner? Forget it, I'll go play poker, blackjack, craps, slots, etc., something where I know what I need to do to make money and what the wisest ways to do so are.

To be fair, certain entities are trying. America's Best Racing does a lot of cool stuff to drum up interest, and I'm friendly with several people who have made fan education a priority. But if we can't adequately teach someone what to look for, how to make money, and how to have fun losing (which seems like an oxymoron, but is what this game is based on since the house, in theory, always wins), how can we ever expect to attract and maintain new fans?

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Horse racing is primarily a gambling game....

I disagree, and that doesn't happen often with you Thask. I'm of the opinion that horse racing is primarily entertainment, and that a majority of the handle still comes from the "recreational" slice of the pie of players, even though that percentage is dropping off to the other slices of "insiders", the syndicates, and the degenerates.

I freely admit I much preferred the game back in the 1980s and even early 1990s, when making a profit over the course of a year was possible with a little elbow grease, or one lucky hit during the season. Now to make a profit, the horseplayer has to apply a whole lot of elbow grease, or be far, far more disciplined, or a combination of the two.

I would agree that if churning a profit in a professional capacity or even as a serious hobbyist is the primary goal, then yes, there are better alternatives to the ponies. But there are better alternatives to gambling, if that is the primary objective. But if the goal is to get the most entertainment for the buck, I still think horse racing has some legs - it provides much better value IMHO than baseball, the movies, hoops and even football. :)

[thaskalos]

I disagree, and that doesn't happen often with you Thask. I'm of the opinion that horse racing is primarily entertainment, and that a majority of the handle still comes from the "recreational" slice of the pie of players, even though that percentage is dropping off to the other slices of "insiders", the syndicates, and the degenerates.

I freely admit I much preferred the game back in the 1980s and even early 1990s, when making a profit over the course of a year was possible with a little elbow grease, or one lucky hit during the season. Now to make a profit, the horseplayer has to apply a whole lot of elbow grease, or be far, far more disciplined, or a combination of the two.

I would agree that if churning a profit in a professional capacity or even as a serious hobbyist is the primary goal, then yes, there are better alternatives to the ponies. But there are better alternatives to gambling, if that is the primary objective. But if the goal is to get the most entertainment for the buck, I still think horse racing has some legs - it provides much better value IMHO than baseball, the movies, hoops and even football. :)

The majority of the handle may indeed come from the "recreational side of the pie of players"...but I doubt that these players would agree that they participate in the game for "recreational" purposes. :)

IMO...the game has lost its luster from both an entertainment, AND a profit-seeking standpoint. How much entertainment -- or profit -- potential can there be in the 6-horse fields which dominate the race-cards from Monday to Friday. After all...the mutuel handle cannot be sustained through weekend play alone.

[glengarry]

Search a little deeper...and you'll find out that they own nothing but the cloths on their back.

How do they eat? Have a place to live? Pay for gas, car insurance, clothes? Any idiot can work for a living. To spend a lifetime at the races with no visible means of support deserves a certain amount of respect. They won't reveal their secrets. One thing for sure is it's either an easy game or these guys are the greatest hustlers around. I would like to know how it's done. Working for a living is no fun either. Then there are the guys in the high roller sections. Betting thousands. Using nothing but a racing form. No laptops to keep in touch of their everyday "business" that logic would say is necessary to finance this lifestyle. They are there on weekdays. Does their business run itself? They drive home in nice cars. Someone explain this one to me. Are they just brilliant handicappers, or am I missing something?

[cutchemist42]

Not sure if I would be considered young, but I only got into this game last June as a 27 yo. One visit to ASD, and stumbling upon this site and a specific forum at SBR helped fuel my interest.

I also bet on sports I understand (football,baseball) but have tried giving poker multiple tries with no appeal. My poker account is still positive, but I found it just boring.

I do think compared to sports betting and even poker, the learning curve for horse racing is large and that the potential exists for big losses until you understand it.

[andtheyreoff]

If you had been to a simulcast center when simulcasting first started and visited one now, you'd know why we are so pessimistic. Bettors were packed like sardines in the beginning. Now days they are running at a third of capacity if that. And the age of most of the people there is within 10 years of 72. The only thing falling faster than the number of bettors is the number of thoroughbreds being born each year.

Yeah, because online betting has become a lot more prevalent since then. Many of those 2/3 of bettors are now playing from home.

On a related note, I wish that online betting got more promotion in racing. Here in NJ, I see plenty of ads for online casinos. If people knew you could bet on racing from anywhere, that would be huge.

[glengarry]

Young people are computer savvy and smart enough to know a raw deal when they see it. Poker is where it has been for the past 4 or 5 years. Soon they will tire of that as well, as too many sophisticated players will make it tougher to win. And the poker players don't even have to deal with a big takeout that is increasing further, cheats and drugs, or inside information. The tracks and governing bodies hate the players, and rely on their addiction to keep them coming back, no matter how many barriers to winning they put in place, or how uncomfortable they make the experience.

If those med students start betting horses regularly and for big money, I would check their billing practices once they get their own practice going. If they make it that far without blowing their tuition.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

The majority of the handle may indeed come from the "recreational side of the pie of players"...but I doubt that these players would agree that they participate in the game for "recreational" purposes. :)

IMO...the game has lost its luster from both an entertainment, AND a profit-seeking standpoint. How much entertainment -- or profit -- potential can there be in the 6-horse fields which dominate the race-cards from Monday to Friday. After all...the mutuel handle cannot be sustained through weekend play alone.

I'd agree that most "recreational" players won't admit losing, but just because horse racing is "scored" more closely by winnings/losses doesn't make it any less of a form of entertainment - regardless of the attitudes of the participants. I chuckle sometimes at people who poo-poo horseplayers, yet don't hesitate to blow big money on SUVs, NFL tickets or the the like. Does it matter if I blow $15K per year playing the ponies, or blow $15K on a new <low end> bass boat?

As for losing its luster as entertainment, I agree racing has its problems. Hopefully the trends in racing in some of the hotter overseas venues (Hong Kong, Japan, and Australia) will provide some North American venues to adopt similar measures - lower takeouts, no drugs, fewer racing dates, and most importantly - treating the fans like human beings - to help reverse the current trend.....

[Capper Al]

To the racing fan that has a little cash to play with, losing just becomes the cost for having fun playing, Everybody gets their win sooner or later, losing is just what it costs to get that winner.

[iceknight]

Young people are computer savvy and smart enough to know a raw deal when they see it. Poker is where it has been for the past 4 or 5 years. Soon they will tire of that as well, as too many sophisticated players will make it tougher to win. And the poker players don't even have to deal with a big takeout that is increasing further, cheats and drugs, or inside information. The tracks and governing bodies hate the players, and rely on their addiction to keep them coming back, no matter how many barriers to winning they put in place, or how uncomfortable they make the experience.

If those med students start betting horses regularly and for big money, I would check their billing practices once they get their own practice going. If they make it that far without blowing their tuition. They seemed to be recreational bettors to me. But there are many young guys in America are into sports betting anyways or poker...so it is rare to see someone show some interest in horse also..

[glengarry]

They seemed to be recreational bettors to me. But there are many young guys in America are into sports betting anyways or poker...so it is rare to see someone show some interest in horse also..

Racing has become like most third world countries. There are the haves and have nots. The middle class is gone. Whales betting with big rebates and an insiders edge (which may or may not include past posting) and the smaller player indulging his addiction.