I have no clue who really is a Horse Butcher but I'll start a thread anyway

[Edward DeVere]

The two scariest stretch runs I saw this year in the three-year-old prep races were those of Onlyforyou in the Davona Dale and Intense Holiday in the Louisiana Derby.

Did Pletcher stop on either one of them?

Hell, no.

Todd Pletcher: North America's all-time leading money winner, and a most excellent killer of horses.

[precocity]

OH s$it here it comes! :cool:

[Stillriledup]

We may as well list all the horse killers here. Have at it boys.

[precocity]

We may as well list all the horse killers here. Have at it boys.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: steve AZZMUSEN!

[wiffleball whizz]

I'm ready for Cj's bi monthly post regarding how pletchers 2 year olds vanish into thin air......some 3 year olds too....

[sammy the sage]

I'm ready for Cj's bi monthly post regarding how pletchers 2 year olds vanish into thin air......some 3 year olds too....

don't forget Lukas or Baffert...

[precocity]

I'm ready for Cj's bi monthly post regarding how pletchers 2 year olds vanish into thin air......some 3 year olds too....
WHAT UP WHIZZY! :cool: fertilizer? just saying?

[wiffleball whizz]

Todd pletcher gets a pass constantly from the media.....guy is rotten to the core

[Stillriledup]

Todd pletcher gets a pass constantly from the media.....guy is rotten to the core

The media is too busy sucking his kneecaps to bother writing the "hardhitting" stories that other real journalists write.

Those guys know who they are, the ones who don't write anything bad about baffert either, you can see them wolfing down free doughnuts and coffee in the pressboxes around America acting like fat cat journalists, you guys know who i'm talking about, hope you can all sleep at night.

[precocity]

Todd pletcher gets a pass constantly from the media.....guy is rotten to the core
DAM RIP
http://youtu.be/0DW6ckOO_dc

LOOK WHO RAN IN THIS RACE.

[PhantomOnTour]

The media is too busy sucking his kneecaps to bother writing the "hardhitting" stories that other real journalists write.

Those guys know who they are, the ones who don't write anything bad about baffert either, you can see them wolfing down free doughnuts and coffee in the pressboxes around America acting like fat cat journalists, you guys know who i'm talking about, hope you can all sleep at night.
I can?
You are really slippin' bro - that last paragraph is ridiculous.

[nijinski]

Pletcher doesn't own the horse .
Intense Holiday went wrong in an am workout and the excercise rider pulled up and got off the horse .
The fracture to the right front foreleg was operated on and it was post
surgery that was vital . Unfortunately he did not make it . Why is Pletcher
to fault here ? All measures were taken to repair the injury .

[andtheyreoff]

Pletcher doesn't own the horse .
Intense Holiday went wrong in an am workout and the excercise rider pulled up and got off the horse .
The fracture to the right front foreleg was operated on and it was post
surgery that was vital . Unfortunately he did not make it . Why is Pletcher
to fault here ? All measures were taken to repair the injury .

Because it's fun to blame Pletcher and start classless threads like this one, apparently.

[Relwob Owner]

This thread sucks....nothing good or interesting can come of it

[Stillriledup]

I can?
You are really slippin' bro - that last paragraph is ridiculous.

It is? There's no free coffee for the "Writers" at tracks around the country?

:D

[PaceAdvantage]

Pletcher has 10 fatalities dating back to 2010 listed in the NYS Breakdown, Death, Injury and Incident database. David Jacobson, who runs a smaller operation, has 12. Gary Contessa also has 10. Christophe Clement has 1.

These are the current top four trainers in terms of wins on the NYRA leaderboard at the moment.

It appears the only thing to be gleaned from this data is that CC is a hero among trainers.

And that the name on this thread should not be Pletcher, given he doesn't have the most deaths AND he runs the biggest operation.

[Stillriledup]

Pletcher has 10 fatalities dating back to 2010 listed in the NYS Breakdown, Death, Injury and Incident database. David Jacobson, who runs a smaller operation, has 12. Gary Contessa also has 10. Christophe Clement has 1.

These are the current top four trainers in terms of wins on the NYRA leaderboard at the moment.

It appears the only thing to be gleaned from this data is that CC is a hero among trainers.

And that the name on this thread should not be Pletcher, given he doesn't have the most deaths AND he runs the biggest operation.

But this is just NY data, right?

As far as Pletcher being in the original thread title, isnt this a thread about Pletcher specifically and horses that were named by the op?

In other words, its a thread about Pletcher and whether he's a butcher or not, changing the title is essentially saying that if you don't agree with it you can change the title. Why not just debate, within the thread, whether or not Pletcher specifically is a butcher?

[socialnetworker]

Why not just debate, within the thread, whether or not Pletcher specifically is a butcher?

One could try to move from inflammation to information - maybe by looking at more actual statistics...

For example, a couple of years ago I looked at Pletcher's Formulator stats for maiden horses claimed away from him...
they were very dismal when they were dropped as part of a pattern of bad performance..

The ones in higher level maiden claimers dropped in first three starts tended to fare better, maybe because they are merely being placed in races appropriate for their abilities.

However, I have noticed several trainers/owners whose Maidens claimed away rarely win and eventually end up running for "bottoms" at bullrings, and then they are never heard from again.

There does seem to be a pattern of early wins followed by dwindling careers for 2 and 3 year olds.

What would Pletcher's Winning Percentages look like if his horses just kept winning and winning and winning? Regression to the Mean might be a relevant phenomenon.

I think it must get harder and harder to find appropriate/softer races for all the stock he trains...

I would like to see some evidence that the pattern is any more pronounced for him than for the average trainer who gets lots and lots of horses brought to him with high expectations.

Christophe's fatality stat was interesting....more of his horses run on turf...a safer surface regarding fatalities?

[Stillriledup]

One could try to move from inflammation to information - maybe by looking at more actual statistics...

For example, a couple of years ago I looked at Pletcher's Formulator stats for maiden horses claimed away from him...
they were very dismal when they were dropped as part of a pattern of bad performance..

The ones in higher level maiden claimers dropped in first three starts tended to fare better, maybe because they are merely being placed in races appropriate for their abilities.

However, I have noticed several trainers/owners whose Maidens claimed away rarely win and eventually end up running for "bottoms" at bullrings, and then they are never heard from again.

There does seem to be a pattern of early wins followed by dwindling careers for 2 and 3 year olds.

What would Pletcher's Winning Percentages look like if his horses just kept winning and winning and winning? Regression to the Mean might be a relevant phenomenon.

I think it must get harder and harder to find appropriate/softer races for all the stock he trains...

I would like to see some evidence that the pattern is any more pronounced for him than for the average trainer who gets lots and lots of horses brought to him with high expectations.

Christophe's fatality stat was interesting....more of his horses run on turf...a safer surface regarding fatalities?

I don't want to speak for the OP, but i do think that he's citing a specific example of a "butcher job". Now, you are suggesting to view all stats from all trainers and make a decision based on that, but i think that analyzing one specific horse to determine if that horse was over raced or in some way managed poorly enough where a breakdown occured and not just look at a trainers overall record.

If Pletcher's overall record suggest he's not a butcher, but this one instance suggests he is, where do we draw the line? You are either a butcher or you're not, there's really no grey area. I think the OP listed one or 2 horses and said that because of the way those horses were managed, he filed TAP under the "Butcher" category. That's his opinion, you might have a different take on the situation, but this is a great game of opinions.

Everyone has one.

[PaceAdvantage]

Holy shit you will debate the minutia of anything...

I can decide to do whatever the heck I want around here. You should be praising all the RESTRAINT I show on a daily basis, instead of criticizing the rare time I actually mess with a thread

[Redbullsnation]

Pletcher is just a trainer. A horse's owner usually has the last say of killing off a horse...

[appistappis]

bruno schickedanz

[socialnetworker]

If Pletcher's overall record suggest he's not a butcher, but this one instance suggests he is, where do we draw the line? You are either a butcher or you're not, there's really no grey area..

So, I assume you are OK with everybody judging you as an "Idiot" on the basis of one post...regardless of your overall record of posting?

you either Are or Are Not?

There's really no grey area?

Unless, perhaps, you want to admit that pejorative terms like "butcher" and "idiot" are rather inflammatory and subjective and do not lend themselves to reasonable discourse nor discussion.

If you watch the PETA hidden video of Asmussen's Assistant you might think he or the stable are "butchers"....but it really is not that black and white.

My subjective impression was that the Trainer actually cared about the horses...and talked about how they would break your heart...

Somebody else - with intellectual Blinkers on - might choose to see only one side of the story.

People like that, however, do not come to forums for Discussion - they come to Advocate for their particular version of Reality...and the "truth" and facts are irrelevant as long as they win their case by using emotional, sensationalized terms which polarize positions and people.

Where do we draw the line?

We should draw it at making gross generalizations of a global nature based on small samples of behavior or facts embedded in the specifics of a situation - in a way that inflames rather than informs.

[Garrigan]

There's really a dichotomy here. In order to get winners, the horses have to survive the method.
Mr. Pletcher has a certain method of producing his winners. What I like to call the "Factory" method. He uses the Lukas method, and is evidently quite good at it. The main theme is numbers, large numbers of horses to get the few that will earn great amounts of money. Managing these large numbers is the core of what Mr. Pletcher does.
Sometimes, his methods have a deleterious effect on the horses in his care. What he does to overcome this is to use any and every tool at his disposal to keep the horse moving forward, and racing.
That includes all therapies such as pharmaceuticals, some of which are not legally for use in animals.
There was one journalist who described some of what Mr. Pletcher does to his horses, especially ones that he drops in class because they don't quite measure up to his standards.
A specific example would be Coronado Heights, who Pletcher dropped from $25k to $7.5k. In his story, Drape lists all the injections this horse got in the 14 days before he ran (and broke down and died).

[Mineshaft]

Pletcher is just a trainer. A horse's owner usually has the last say of killing off a horse...




Maybe, maybe not. A trainer is the one who decides when to work the horse, how fast, and how long. 99.9 is the trainers fault.

[dinque]

i am totally on board with the last two posts

[burnsy]

Holy shit you will debate the minutia of anything...

I can decide to do whatever the heck I want around here. You should be praising all the RESTRAINT I show on a daily basis, instead of criticizing the rare time I actually mess with a thread

I'm on board with this post....you are pretty patient. And I'm one to stir the pot too. But c'mon, every time there's a misfortune for certain trainers.........you get more conspiracy theories than the grassy knoll.

[thaskalos]

So, I assume you are OK with everybody judging you as an "Idiot" on the basis of one post...regardless of your overall record of posting?

you either Are or Are Not?

There's really no grey area?

Unless, perhaps, you want to admit that pejorative terms like "butcher" and "idiot" are rather inflammatory and subjective and do not lend themselves to reasonable discourse nor discussion.

If you watch the PETA hidden video of Asmussen's Assistant you might think he or the stable are "butchers"....but it really is not that black and white.

My subjective impression was that the Trainer actually cared about the horses...and talked about how they would break your heart...

Somebody else - with intellectual Blinkers on - might choose to see only one side of the story.

People like that, however, do not come to forums for Discussion - they come to Advocate for their particular version of Reality...and the "truth" and facts are irrelevant as long as they win their case by using emotional, sensationalized terms which polarize positions and people.

Where do we draw the line?

We should draw it at making gross generalizations of a global nature based on small samples of behavior or facts embedded in the specifics of a situation - in a way that inflames rather than informs.

It seems to me that YOU YOURSELF are advocating your particular version of "reality" here...which you have disguised as the "Truth". What makes you think that you also do not have your "intellectual blinkers on"?

I too saw the PETA video...and the trainer on it did not seem, to me, to "care" about his horses AT ALL. What he meant by "they break your heart" was the frustration he felt when the horses in his barn did not fulfill the expectations he had of them. Is that what we mean by CARING?

ALL of us have our intellectual blinkers on...and what we say here is seldom the "Truth"...because we seldom know all of the "facts". We are all giving opinions...which could easily be wrong.

[thaskalos]

I don't want to speak for the OP, but i do think that he's citing a specific example of a "butcher job". Now, you are suggesting to view all stats from all trainers and make a decision based on that, but i think that analyzing one specific horse to determine if that horse was over raced or in some way managed poorly enough where a breakdown occured and not just look at a trainers overall record.

If Pletcher's overall record suggest he's not a butcher, but this one instance suggests he is, where do we draw the line? You are either a butcher or you're not, there's really no grey area. I think the OP listed one or 2 horses and said that because of the way those horses were managed, he filed TAP under the "Butcher" category. That's his opinion, you might have a different take on the situation, but this is a great game of opinions.

Everyone has one.

In my opinion...SRU is absolutely right. A horse butcher is a horse butcher...even if he plies his trade infrequently. There is no need to review lifetime stats in order to determine if he is a horse butcher or not. After all...a killer may only kill a few of the people that he meets...but we still call him a "killer".

[thaskalos]

There's really a dichotomy here. In order to get winners, the horses have to survive the method.
Mr. Pletcher has a certain method of producing his winners. What I like to call the "Factory" method. He uses the Lukas method, and is evidently quite good at it. The main theme is numbers, large numbers of horses to get the few that will earn great amounts of money. Managing these large numbers is the core of what Mr. Pletcher does.
Sometimes, his methods have a deleterious effect on the horses in his care. What he does to overcome this is to use any and every tool at his disposal to keep the horse moving forward, and racing.
That includes all therapies such as pharmaceuticals, some of which are not legally for use in animals.
There was one journalist who described some of what Mr. Pletcher does to his horses, especially ones that he drops in class because they don't quite measure up to his standards.
A specific example would be Coronado Heights, who Pletcher dropped from $25k to $7.5k. In his story, Drape lists all the injections this horse got in the 14 days before he ran (and broke down and died).

The definition of a "horse butcher"...IMO.

[socialnetworker]

It seems to me that YOU YOURSELF are advocating your particular version of "reality" here...which you have disguised as the "Truth". What makes you think that you also do not have your "intellectual blinkers on"?


You seem to ignore the fact that I clearly stated it was my "Subjective" impression. I have not tried to "disguise" anything at all.

My subjective impression was that "Butchers" do not generally talk about having their hearts broken...the idea for Butchers is to not have a heart...I "felt" - based upon subjective impressions of everything which I heard and saw in the video - that Scott Blasi *did* care about what happened to the horses. He still participated - by virtue of doing what he thought was his job - but he was not totally without conscience about what he was doing.

However, I would be quite willing to admit that my Subjective Impressions were mistaken in the event that somebody provided me with Objective Evidence that was inconsistent with my impressions.

I also might be willing to admit that my Subjective Impressions were irrelevant if I came to understand that most people have a different definition of what it means to call somebody a "Butcher."

Perhaps you do not understand the distinction between Subjective and Objective...

Or, perhaps you do not care whether you ignore things which would argue against your own subjective interpretations.

You also do not appear to understand what "Advocacy" encompasses.
Advocates have only one allegiance: and that is the promotion of their "Cause." Hence, they do not really care whether the entire body of evidence is disclosed.

This is why an Attorney really does not care what the Truth/Reality is, as long as he "Wins" at influencing the Opinions of the Jury - or the Court of Public Opinion.

With Advocacy, "Appearance" is all that matters.

I'm not advocating anything in this thread, except that people be more balanced in their discussion and less inflammatory in assassinating people's characters while hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet.

Still, I recognize that I am probably in the wrong thread to be advocating anything of that sort.

[thaskalos]

You seem to ignore the fact that I clearly stated it was my "Subjective" impression. I have not tried to "disguise" anything at all.

My subjective impression was that "Butchers" do not generally talk about having their hearts broken...the idea for Butchers is to not have a heart...I "felt" - based upon subjective impressions of everything which I heard and saw in the video - that Scott Blasi *did* care about what happened to the horses. He still participated - by virtue of doing what he thought was his job - but he was not totally without conscience about what he was doing.

However, I would be quite willing to admit that my Subjective Impressions were mistaken in the event that somebody provided me with Objective Evidence that was inconsistent with my impressions.

I also might be willing to admit that my Subjective Impressions were irrelevant if I came to understand that most people have a different definition of what it means to call somebody a "Butcher."

Perhaps you do not understand the distinction between Subjective and Objective...

Or, perhaps you do not care whether you ignore things which would argue against your own subjective interpretations.

You also do not appear to understand what "Advocacy" encompasses.
Advocates have only one allegiance: and that is the promotion of their "Cause." Hence, they do not really care whether the entire body of evidence is disclosed.

This is why an Attorney really does not care what the Truth/Reality is, as long as he "Wins" at influencing the Opinions of the Jury - or the Court of Public Opinion.

With Advocacy, "Appearance" is all that matters.

I'm not advocating anything in this thread, except that people be more balanced in their discussion and less inflammatory in assassinating people's characters while hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet.

Still, I recognize that I am probably in the wrong thread to be advocating anything of that sort.

No...I understand what these terms imply. I was just confused by your "intellectual blinkers" reference.

How could you be only stating a "subjective" opinion...while also claiming that those with a differing opinion have their "intellectual blinkers" on?

[thaskalos]

My subjective impression was that "Butchers" do not generally talk about having their hearts broken...the idea for Butchers is to not have a heart...I "felt" - based upon subjective impressions of everything which I heard and saw in the video - that Scott Blasi *did* care about what happened to the horses. He still participated - by virtue of doing what he thought was his job - but he was not totally without conscience about what he was doing.

However, I would be quite willing to admit that my Subjective Impressions were mistaken in the event that somebody provided me with Objective Evidence that was inconsistent with my impressions.

I also might be willing to admit that my Subjective Impressions were irrelevant if I came to understand that most people have a different definition of what it means to call somebody a "Butcher."


Whoever told you that 'Butchers" have no heart? Haven't some of the most notorious killers in history lived otherwise normal family lives...where they were shown to be loving husbands, fathers, or pet-owners?

[Stillriledup]

Whoever told you that 'Butchers" have no heart? Haven't some of the most notorious killers in history lived otherwise normal family lives...where they were shown to be loving husbands, fathers, or pet-owners?

Yes, some butchers are actually beloved. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzSDKB9PpU

[socialnetworker]

There was one journalist who described some of what Mr. Pletcher does to his horses, especially ones that he drops in class because they don't quite measure up to his standards.
A specific example would be Coronado Heights, who Pletcher dropped from $25k to $7.5k. In his story, Drape lists all the injections this horse got in the 14 days before he ran (and broke down and died).

Thanks for pointing out the Drape article, more info available here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/sports/despite-the-evidence-trainers-deny-a-doping-problem.html

It is an interesting read, compared to the same writer's complimentary feature he wrote on Pletcher back in 2011: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/sports/for-pletcher-managing-a-training-empire-is-all-in-a-days-work.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1402945438-O3iI04KJRIMX43CwKw+h0w

I found the following article to provide a well-reasoned analysis of several sources of information:
http://tenoonan.com/tag/coronado-heights/

The use of medical treatment and drugs is certainly subject to corrupt and unethical practices.

Horse racing has a long history of corrupt practices, which usually flourish until somebody is able to shine light on them - and people who care and have power decide to do something about them.

There is sworn testimony from a lawsuit several years ago where a guy from an organized crime family was appointed to be in charge of the testing barn at a New Jersey track- and he testified that he routinely manipulated the results. (Sorry, but I am too pre-occupied to try to find the reference just now).

We have long known that corrupt practices extended to human athletes in the National Football League, where players were given injections to keep them playing with knees and shoulders that were damaged badly, and the players had little choice but to accept being medicated.

One Defensive Back whom I knew personally had to have a Chain rigged to keep his arm from extending in a position where the shoulder would dislocate easily...after there was nothing more for surgeons to operate on.

We also now know more about the dangers of Concussions, and many football players claim to have been victimized by their teams pressuring them to play in unsafe situations.

A lot of NBA players are pressured to play despite injuries, and end up needing knee and other surgeries...(Derrick Rose?)

Few will recall how legendary Center Bill Walton was pressured to play in spite of injuries to his feet, and how he was mocked as a sissy when he refused to play.

However, an awful lot of progress and advances in orthopedic surgery have come about from trial and error research conducted to try to keep human athletes functioning after injuries...like laproscopic surgeries and rebuilding joints and tendons....all of which has led to breakthroughs in artificial joints, knees and hips.

On the equine front, tremendously interesting research on the use of Stem Cells to regenerate joints and tendons has been taking place:
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/07/09/caution-urged-miracle-equine-stem-cell-therapy/#axzz34pbr1ZUe

For those just now hearing about the effects of Thyroxine, Muhammad Ali was given it during one of his comebacks to help him lose all the weight he had gained...it speeds up your Metabolism...there was no FDA-approved rationale for giving him the drug. His trainer - Angelo Dundee - felt that the drug gave a false impression of Ali's fitness - in that his strength was still weaker than it should have been.

I would point out that Doctors routinely prescribe Aspirin to men my age - even though we do not suffer from any diagnosed Aspirin-deficiency.

There is a theory that the Aspirin may reduce either the frequency or severity of circulatory problems and/or strokes. But no drug is without potential side-effects, and there will always be groups of patients at the Extremes of the Normal Curve who will suffer negatives more than positives from any specific drug.

When we see a clump of horses dying after routine administration of Thyroxine (like in Baffert's barn), these may be the ones destined to suffer the negative effects of *any* routine medicinal treatment program (called "outliers")...

The vast majority may actually benefit from a drug (or not be harmed)...
We really do not know what the costs/benefits are without significant research done scientifically, rather than relying solely on anecdotal evidence.

Men my age and weight are routinely pressured into taking Statin drugs, even though there are conflicting research studies regarding the safety and necessity of taking such drugs.

One doctor fired me as a patient because I declined to take Lipitor because he could not assure me that taking it would significantly reduce my chances of dying from a stroke. (Plenty of people with high cholesterol will never suffer a stroke).

Thankfully, I have Free Will to refuse to take such medications...

I cannot fault those who wish to publicize the situation of human and animal athletes who do not have the same opportunity to exercise Free Will.

Maybe calling people "Butchers" gets attention, and attention results in attention being paid towards fixing a bad situation.

Normally, however, I don't feel that character assassination results in constructive discussion...just defensiveness.

There are a whole host of "Super Trainers" with much higher winning percentages than Pletcher operating at smaller tracks (like Penn)...guys who are winning 40% or more of their races.

Seriously? They are *that* much better than their peers at evaluating horseflesh and building speed and stamina?

I believe that Pletcher has access to the best treatment and training and diet that money can buy for his horses.

So, how do those Super Trainers outperform his winning percentage, especially when Pletcher is known for bluntly telling owners that their horses are not good enough to compete at a given level - and he supposedly does not hesitate to place horses where they will be competitive? (Same story with Jerry Hollendorfer).

How does anybody expect Midwest Thoroughbreds to win record amounts of purses primarily on the backs of Claimers?

Something indeed seems "rotten in the state of Denmark."

Does nobody find it suspicious that Equibase/DRF do not bother to show us statistics about the win rates of the OWNERS in the PPs?

[Stillriledup]

Thanks for pointing out the Drape article, more info available here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/sports/despite-the-evidence-trainers-deny-a-doping-problem.html

It is an interesting read, compared to the same writer's complimentary feature he wrote on Pletcher back in 2011: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/sports/for-pletcher-managing-a-training-empire-is-all-in-a-days-work.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1402945438-O3iI04KJRIMX43CwKw+h0w

I found the following article to provide a well-reasoned analysis of several sources of information:
http://tenoonan.com/tag/coronado-heights/

The use of medical treatment and drugs is certainly subject to corrupt and unethical practices.

Horse racing has a long history of corrupt practices, which usually flourish until somebody is able to shine light on them - and people who care and have power decide to do something about them.

There is sworn testimony from a lawsuit several years ago where a guy from an organized crime family was appointed to be in charge of the testing barn at a New Jersey track- and he testified that he routinely manipulated the results. (Sorry, but I am too pre-occupied to try to find the reference just now).

We have long known that corrupt practices extended to human athletes in the National Football League, where players were given injections to keep them playing with knees and shoulders that were damaged badly, and the players had little choice but to accept being medicated.

One Defensive Back whom I knew personally had to have a Chain rigged to keep his arm from extending in a position where the shoulder would dislocate easily...after there was nothing more for surgeons to operate on.

We also now know more about the dangers of Concussions, and many football players claim to have been victimized by their teams pressuring them to play in unsafe situations.

A lot of NBA players are pressured to play despite injuries, and end up needing knee and other surgeries...(Derrick Rose?)

Few will recall how legendary Center Bill Walton was pressured to play in spite of injuries to his feet, and how he was mocked as a sissy when he refused to play.

However, an awful lot of progress and advances in orthopedic surgery have come about from trial and error research conducted to try to keep human athletes functioning after injuries...like laproscopic surgeries and rebuilding joints and tendons....all of which has led to breakthroughs in artificial joints, knees and hips.

On the equine front, tremendously interesting research on the use of Stem Cells to regenerate joints and tendons has been taking place:
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/07/09/caution-urged-miracle-equine-stem-cell-therapy/#axzz34pbr1ZUe

For those just now hearing about the effects of Thyroxine, Muhammad Ali was given it during one of his comebacks to help him lose all the weight he had gained...it speeds up your Metabolism...there was no FDA-approved rationale for giving him the drug. His trainer - Angelo Dundee - felt that the drug gave a false impression of Ali's fitness - in that his strength was still weaker than it should have been.

I would point out that Doctors routinely prescribe Aspirin to men my age - even though we do not suffer from any diagnosed Aspirin-deficiency.

There is a theory that the Aspirin may reduce either the frequency or severity of circulatory problems and/or strokes. But no drug is without potential side-effects, and there will always be groups of patients at the Extremes of the Normal Curve who will suffer negatives more than positives from any specific drug.

When we see a clump of horses dying after routine administration of Thyroxine (like in Baffert's barn), these may be the ones destined to suffer the negative effects of *any* routine medicinal treatment program (called "outliers")...

The vast majority may actually benefit from a drug (or not be harmed)...
We really do not know what the costs/benefits are without significant research done scientifically, rather than relying solely on anecdotal evidence.

Men my age and weight are routinely pressured into taking Statin drugs, even though there are conflicting research studies regarding the safety and necessity of taking such drugs.

One doctor fired me as a patient because I declined to take Lipitor because he could not assure me that taking it would significantly reduce my chances of dying from a stroke. (Plenty of people with high cholesterol will never suffer a stroke).

Thankfully, I have Free Will to refuse to take such medications...

I cannot fault those who wish to publicize the situation of human and animal athletes who do not have the same opportunity to exercise Free Will.

Maybe calling people "Butchers" gets attention, and attention results in attention being paid towards fixing a bad situation.

Normally, however, I don't feel that character assassination results in constructive discussion...just defensiveness.

There are a whole host of "Super Trainers" with much higher winning percentages than Pletcher operating at smaller tracks (like Penn)...guys who are winning 40% or more of their races.

Seriously? They are *that* much better than their peers at evaluating horseflesh and building speed and stamina?

I believe that Pletcher has access to the best treatment and training and diet that money can buy for his horses.

So, how do those Super Trainers outperform his winning percentage, especially when Pletcher is known for bluntly telling owners that their horses are not good enough to compete at a given level - and he supposedly does not hesitate to place horses where they will be competitive? (Same story with Jerry Hollendorfer).

How does anybody expect Midwest Thoroughbreds to win record amounts of purses primarily on the backs of Claimers?

Something indeed seems "rotten in the state of Denmark."

Does nobody find it suspicious that Equibase/DRF do not bother to show us statistics about the win rates of the OWNERS in the PPs?

"Cheating" and high supertrainer win percentages are different from being a butcher. There are plenty of threads on trainers who "nobody has heard of" winning at astounding rates, those are different discussions than whether or not they are butchers.

[socialnetworker]

How could you be only stating a "subjective" opinion...while also claiming that those with a differing opinion have their "intellectual blinkers" on?

I think your inability to reconcile what is plainly stated in black and white points out your own gap between knowledge and understanding.

You are more interested in playing word games than understanding what I had to say...and more interested in seeking apparent inconsistencies than in seeing the big picture. This is disappointing from someone who quotes Gurdjieff - who supported himself by painting birds yellow and selling them as Canaries.

I have already pointed out the problem with attaching Global labels onto the specific behaviors of people in specific situations...in other words the inappropriate use of Generalizations, aka Character Assassination.

In Science, this is known at the Fundamental Attribution Error, where people make global attributions of behavior to some purported personal characteristic rather than recognizing that there may be features of a situation that account for more Variance in explaining the behavior.

As you have pointed out, the label of Butcher does not seem that helpful to explain the behavior of certain people in situations not associated with the purported acts of "butchery."

One man's "Professional" might be a "Psychopath" to someone else.

Unless we are specifically talking about cleaving through meat and bone, I do not think that using inflammatory terms like "Butcher" enhances the capability to discuss certain phenomena effectively and elevate our respective Consciousnesses from the typical dream states which Gurdjieff so disdained.
:sleeping:

But, if you feel enlightened by using such terms, then have at it.

[thaskalos]

I think your inability to reconcile what is plainly stated in black and white points out your own gap between knowledge and understanding.

You are more interested in playing word games than understanding what I had to say...and more interested in seeking apparent inconsistencies than in seeing the big picture. This is disappointing from someone who quotes Gurdjieff - who supported himself by painting birds yellow and selling them as Canaries.

I have already pointed out the problem with attaching Global labels onto the specific behaviors of people in specific situations...in other words the inappropriate use of Generalizations, aka Character Assassination.

In Science, this is known at the Fundamental Attribution Error, where people make global attributions of behavior to some purported personal characteristic rather than recognizing that there may be features of a situation that account for more Variance in explaining the behavior.

As you have pointed out, the label of Butcher does not seem that helpful to explain the behavior of certain people in situations not associated with the purported acts of "butchery."

One man's "Professional" might be a "Psychopath" to someone else.

Unless we are specifically talking about cleaving through meat and bone, I do not think that using inflammatory terms like "Butcher" enhances the capability to discuss certain phenomena effectively and elevate our respective Consciousnesses from the typical dream states which Gurdjieff so disdained.
:sleeping:

But, if you feel enlightened by using such terms, then have at it.

Stop beating around the bush, and tell me what you implied by your "intellectual blinkers" reference. What makes you think that those who disagree with you have their "intellectual blinkers" on...and you don't?

You said in a prior posting that Scott Blasi "CARED" about the horses in his barn...because he used the phrase, "they break your heart". It should have been obvious to anyone but your blinkered self that Blasi did not mean this phrase in a "caring" way -- as you have surmised. He meant it in a derogatory way...to imply that the horses "broke his heart" by not meeting the lofty standards that he had set for them. We know that he meant the phrase in a derogatory way...because he used an expletive in his description of the horses, in the exact same sentence.

And leave Gurdjieff alone...he has nothing to do with this. Neither you nor I are capable of relaying what "Gurdjieff so disdained". That's why I only quote him in brief passages.

[socialnetworker]

"Cheating" and high supertrainer win percentages are different from being a butcher. There are plenty of threads on trainers who "nobody has heard of" winning at astounding rates, those are different discussions than whether or not they are butchers.

Maybe they should NOT be different discussions.

I think if you were able to look closely then you might find certain common techniques and practices.

They possibly share the desire to make Winning the main priority regardless of certain ethical/moral concerns.

It would be hypocritical to call Pletcher a butcher for having the same focus on winning and following the same practices that others have likely taken to an extreme in order to achieve their Super Trainer status.

I think it is a mistake to submerge everything which Pletcher does that is *right* and positive under the mask of a global epithet like "Butcher."

Pletcher runs a fairly transparent operation...

I would like to see what could be seen if some of the Super Trainers were subjected to as much scrutiny.

I simply doubt that labeling them Butchers would enhance any rational discussion of what they are doing and how they are doing it.

Have at it, though, if it makes you feel superior by doing so.

[nijinski]

Quote : Garrigan
There was one journalist who described some of what Mr. Pletcher does to his horses, especially ones that he drops in class because they don't quite measure up to his standards.
A specific example would be Coronado Heights, who Pletcher dropped from $25k to $7.5k. In his story, Drape lists all the injections this horse got in the 14 days before he ran (and broke down and died).

Quote : Thaskalos

The definition of a "horse butcher"...IMO.

He actually began his career at 12,500 and lost in an attempt at 16,000 .
He never was at the 25,000 level .
The injections are widely used at the track , so adding this to his story
to make an example of someone and letting the rest go is not an honest
job , IMO . Drug policies are a problem no doubt and hopefully will be
augmented for the welfare of the horses .

The big question is what to do with the large number of well bred young
horses that don't measure up . Some , and likely Coronado Heights fit the
description , are not good candidates for adoption due to very high strung
dispositions . That is a very big problem that needs to be addressed .

Seriously, for me a butcher is one who has ties to a meat packing plant
or makes the arrangements . One recently banned from a major track
that received enough paper trail evidence .Others never got a write up
with their names published . They just weren't popular enough .

[socialnetworker]

Stop beating around the bush, and tell me what you implied by your "intellectual blinkers" reference. What makes you think that those who disagree with you have their "intellectual blinkers" on...and you don't?

You are impressive in your compulsion to distort what others have said by selective attention and distraction.

You clearly have difficulty in distinguishing between analysis and synthesis - which may account for your glee in mixing apples with oranges.

You are the only one asserting that any people who disagree with me must have intellectual blinkers on...that is not what I said.

What I stated was that somebody with intellectual blinkers on would see only one side of a story.

Here is the exact quote:

"Somebody else - with intellectual Blinkers on - might choose to see only one side of the story"....

I made it clear that however subjective my point of view might be, at least I am trying to see more than one side of the story, therefore I do not consider myself to be wearing any intellectual blinkers in this particular matter.

In the case of the PETA video, it is fairly obviously a piece of Propaganda, edited to achieve an effect, with material left out which did not fit the theme, and it makes no presumption of providing unbiased and balanced representation of points of views. It does not have to do that...it is Advocacy, not Journalism.

I expect any adult with any intellectual honesty to acknowledge that.

IF you cannot see the intentionally one-sided nature of it, then you have intellectual blinkers on...and there is no point to engaging you in any conversation.

Standard English in not as difficult to parse as you make it seem.



You said in a prior posting that Scott Blasi "CARED" about the horses in his barn...because he used the phrase, "they break your heart".

Again, you seem to have difficulty quoting other people accurately and choose to cherry pick words and phases and distort causal interpretations.

I have already stated that my subjective impression that Blasi did actually care about the horses to some degree was based upon everything which I saw and heard in the video.

Yet you keep implying that I concluded this solely because Blasi used the phrase "they break your heart."However, that is not what I said...I used the word "AND" - not the word "because"...those are two different concepts which denote totally different relationships between the phrases which they conjoin.

My subjective impression was that the Trainer actually cared about the horses...and talked about how they would break your heart...

The phrase about my subjective impressions precedes the second phrase - not vice versa - and the three dots plus the word "and" indicate two different concepts which occur at most simultaneously, not in the sequential order which you have seized upon.

I did not say "Because Blasi talked about his heart being broken my subjective impression was that he cared about horses." However, his comments did contribute to my conclusions.

Blasi is clearly passionate about what he does...AND he expressed disapproval for the fact that the OWNERS keep racing horses who are not fit to run.

A number of times he said and did things which I interpreted as indicating he is not happy about the way the horses are treated, but he has a job to do.

It was my subjective impression that he expressed disapproval of the way the horse's legs and feet were not cared for properly.

As I said previously, specific information which proves that Blasi has no concern nor care about the way that the horses were treated would cause me to reconsider the validity of my admittedly SUBJECTIVE impressions.

However, I will not simply replace my own subjective impressions with YOURS - which I believe to be poorly formulated.

For example, you preposterously claim that because Blasi used the word *uckers in referring to horses who come down with injuries that this somehow justifies labeling him as a Butcher...

Perhaps you are a holier-than-thou type who never indulges in profanity...
perhaps you look down upon people who work in the underclasses of Society - for whom swearing and the F-bomb frequently come up when they are speaking about issues with a degree of passion or emotion or "attitude"...

I don't believe that you are any better at interpreting what Blasi said than you have been at representing what I have said in my posts.

Blasi @1:13: They'll *ucking break your heart every *ucking day, these *ocksuckers. There's always something wrong with 'em.

Blasi said nothing about them violating his "lofty expectations" as you tried to claim. You totally fabricated that or were influenced by poster Garrigan's comments about Pletcher dropping horses "who don't quite measure up to his standards."

He is more likely talking about the dangers of getting emotionally attached to the animals, and is lamenting the stress that is associated with having to figure out what is wrong with them and treat them.

I've heard parents say similar things about their own infants - with and without the profanity. They have a sense of tremendous responsibility combined with helplessness when parents are unable to make the children feel better or avoid their injuries or crying spells.

For Blasi, it would not be "manly" to display sensitive feelings about the horses, so he is compelled to mask his feelings speaking about them by using vulgar terms. Men frequently prefer to insult their friends rather than verbalize how much they care about them...it is the same sort of psychological camouflage that men use to avoid being seen as vulnerable.
A Reverse Psychology of sorts.

Butchers do not have emotional reactions to their victims' injuries and illnesses. If he did not care, there would be no reason for his heart to be broken.

Really? The Big, Bad, Callous Butcher has his heart broken simply because his "lofty expectations" have not been met?

You cannot see how ridiculous it is to suggest that an evil Butcher would have his heart broken merely due to "expectations" on a DAILY BASIS?

What lofty expectations would the Butcher have EVERY DAY? Not even Butchers race their horses every day.

Scott Blasi demonstrates empathy and concern for the feelings of the horses in several places in the film clips which we were permitted to see.
Butchers don't do that.

Blasi @1:36: "Saratoga is hard on horses, man...it is the hardest place in the world on them.."

Blasi @1:38: I see this son of a bitch out here jogging every day...it's *ucking horrible.

Question @2:08: "Have Nehro's feet always been this bad?"

Blasi @2:09: Yes, they're horrible.

Blasi and the farrier discuss how little foot Nehro has, and how the holes in his hooves are very sensitive:

Blasi @2:51 Listen, I know the *ucker hurts. This hurts him.

The farrier says they used SuperGlue on the horse to keep shoes on:

Blasi @2:59: Super-glue! That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Discussing Nehro's death:

Blasi @ 3:15: I have seen a lot of shit. That is the most violent death I have ever seen.

Discussing Blasi's statement that Owner Zayat should have retired Nehro long ago, Blasi is asked why the horse was not retired:

Question: Was it for the money?

Blasi @ 3:32: *ucking *unt (referring to Zayat)

Later, discussing injuries to young horses:

Blasi @ 3:44: You could not believe how many they hurt and kill before they ever even get to the racetrack. It's mind-boggling.

Talking about shock-wave therapy:
Blasi @ 5:36: It hurts like hell, I can't believe those sons-of-bitches can take it.

My subjective interpretation of Blasi's comments and my experience of talking to real-live Psychopaths and Murderers tells me that Blasi does have concerns and emotional reactions to the things he witnesses happening to horses at the Race Track.

He behaved like an Idiot, but he is not a Butcher.

A "Butcher" with no remorse would have no such empathy for the creatures he sees injured. He would be more likely to laugh or intellectualize about what they are experiencing.

People are complex creatures, and can often harbor seemingly contradictory emotions, feelings, values and morals all at the same time.
We can all be heroes and villains at the same time.

We should resist the belief that any single behavior should define anybody for all time, across all situations...for the most part.

I won't bother detailing the exceptions to what I just said, as it will just generate another demonstration of selective attention.

I am done with trying to explain and justify what ought to be obvious to somebody who purports to understand anything Gurdjieff supposedly said.

[thaskalos]

It impresses me to no end to discover that you have had extensive experience dealing with psychopaths and murderers...but I still cannot be persuaded that the depiction of Blasi that you have presented here is accurate. Both you and I have only the edited video to go on...and my impression of Blasi differs greatly from the one that you have formed. I didn't see the "caring" individual that you saw...nor can I attribute his foul mouth to some sort of "machismo". The Blasi that I saw in the video was a PIG...and an utter DISGRACE to what this game advertises itself to be.

"Butcher" would not be my word of choice in describing these unscrupulous men, who place the lives of men and beasts in grave danger, by over-medicating and racing horses who are hurt and in dire need of recuperation. But I knew what the original poster meant by the word "butcher"...and I found it quite adequate in this context. Horses who die on the track after being administered powerful painkillers have had BUTCHERS as trainers...and I don't give a rat's ass how "decorated" these unscrupulous men have become.

I would call them "pigs" again...but that would be an insult to the four-legged variety...

[appistappis]

some butchers get whats coming to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGq5XaYS-dA

[thaskalos]

You are more interested in playing word games than understanding what I had to say...and more interested in seeking apparent inconsistencies than in seeing the big picture. This is disappointing from someone who quotes Gurdjieff - who supported himself by painting birds yellow and selling them as Canaries.



What would we do without Wikipedia... :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

You are impressive in your compulsion to distort what others have said by selective attention and distraction.

You clearly have difficulty in distinguishing between analysis and synthesis - which may account for your glee in mixing apples with oranges.

You are the only one asserting that any people who disagree with me must have intellectual blinkers on...that is not what I said.

What I stated was that somebody with intellectual blinkers on would see only one side of a story.

Here is the exact quote:

"Somebody else - with intellectual Blinkers on - might choose to see only one side of the story"....

I made it clear that however subjective my point of view might be, at least I am trying to see more than one side of the story, therefore I do not consider myself to be wearing any intellectual blinkers in this particular matter.

In the case of the PETA video, it is fairly obviously a piece of Propaganda, edited to achieve an effect, with material left out which did not fit the theme, and it makes no presumption of providing unbiased and balanced representation of points of views. It does not have to do that...it is Advocacy, not Journalism.

I expect any adult with any intellectual honesty to acknowledge that.

IF you cannot see the intentionally one-sided nature of it, then you have intellectual blinkers on...and there is no point to engaging you in any conversation.

Standard English in not as difficult to parse as you make it seem.



Again, you seem to have difficulty quoting other people accurately and choose to cherry pick words and phases and distort causal interpretations.

I have already stated that my subjective impression that Blasi did actually care about the horses to some degree was based upon everything which I saw and heard in the video.

Yet you keep implying that I concluded this solely because Blasi used the phrase "they break your heart."However, that is not what I said...I used the word "AND" - not the word "because"...those are two different concepts which denote totally different relationships between the phrases which they conjoin.



The phrase about my subjective impressions precedes the second phrase - not vice versa - and the three dots plus the word "and" indicate two different concepts which occur at most simultaneously, not in the sequential order which you have seized upon.

I did not say "Because Blasi talked about his heart being broken my subjective impression was that he cared about horses." However, his comments did contribute to my conclusions.

Blasi is clearly passionate about what he does...AND he expressed disapproval for the fact that the OWNERS keep racing horses who are not fit to run.

A number of times he said and did things which I interpreted as indicating he is not happy about the way the horses are treated, but he has a job to do.

It was my subjective impression that he expressed disapproval of the way the horse's legs and feet were not cared for properly.

As I said previously, specific information which proves that Blasi has no concern nor care about the way that the horses were treated would cause me to reconsider the validity of my admittedly SUBJECTIVE impressions.

However, I will not simply replace my own subjective impressions with YOURS - which I believe to be poorly formulated.

For example, you preposterously claim that because Blasi used the word *uckers in referring to horses who come down with injuries that this somehow justifies labeling him as a Butcher...

Perhaps you are a holier-than-thou type who never indulges in profanity...
perhaps you look down upon people who work in the underclasses of Society - for whom swearing and the F-bomb frequently come up when they are speaking about issues with a degree of passion or emotion or "attitude"...

I don't believe that you are any better at interpreting what Blasi said than you have been at representing what I have said in my posts.

Blasi @1:13: They'll *ucking break your heart every *ucking day, these *ocksuckers. There's always something wrong with 'em.

Blasi said nothing about them violating his "lofty expectations" as you tried to claim. You totally fabricated that or were influenced by poster Garrigan's comments about Pletcher dropping horses "who don't quite measure up to his standards."

He is more likely talking about the dangers of getting emotionally attached to the animals, and is lamenting the stress that is associated with having to figure out what is wrong with them and treat them.

I've heard parents say similar things about their own infants - with and without the profanity. They have a sense of tremendous responsibility combined with helplessness when parents are unable to make the children feel better or avoid their injuries or crying spells.

For Blasi, it would not be "manly" to display sensitive feelings about the horses, so he is compelled to mask his feelings speaking about them by using vulgar terms. Men frequently prefer to insult their friends rather than verbalize how much they care about them...it is the same sort of psychological camouflage that men use to avoid being seen as vulnerable.
A Reverse Psychology of sorts.

Butchers do not have emotional reactions to their victims' injuries and illnesses. If he did not care, there would be no reason for his heart to be broken.

Really? The Big, Bad, Callous Butcher has his heart broken simply because his "lofty expectations" have not been met?

You cannot see how ridiculous it is to suggest that an evil Butcher would have his heart broken merely due to "expectations" on a DAILY BASIS?

What lofty expectations would the Butcher have EVERY DAY? Not even Butchers race their horses every day.

Scott Blasi demonstrates empathy and concern for the feelings of the horses in several places in the film clips which we were permitted to see.
Butchers don't do that.

Blasi @1:36: "Saratoga is hard on horses, man...it is the hardest place in the world on them.."

Blasi @1:38: I see this son of a bitch out here jogging every day...it's *ucking horrible.

Question @2:08: "Have Nehro's feet always been this bad?"

Blasi @2:09: Yes, they're horrible.

Blasi and the farrier discuss how little foot Nehro has, and how the holes in his hooves are very sensitive:

Blasi @2:51 Listen, I know the *ucker hurts. This hurts him.

The farrier says they used SuperGlue on the horse to keep shoes on:

Blasi @2:59: Super-glue! That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Discussing Nehro's death:

Blasi @ 3:15: I have seen a lot of shit. That is the most violent death I have ever seen.

Discussing Blasi's statement that Owner Zayat should have retired Nehro long ago, Blasi is asked why the horse was not retired:

Question: Was it for the money?

Blasi @ 3:32: *ucking *unt (referring to Zayat)

Later, discussing injuries to young horses:

Blasi @ 3:44: You could not believe how many they hurt and kill before they ever even get to the racetrack. It's mind-boggling.

Talking about shock-wave therapy:
Blasi @ 5:36: It hurts like hell, I can't believe those sons-of-bitches can take it.

My subjective interpretation of Blasi's comments and my experience of talking to real-live Psychopaths and Murderers tells me that Blasi does have concerns and emotional reactions to the things he witnesses happening to horses at the Race Track.

He behaved like an Idiot, but he is not a Butcher.

A "Butcher" with no remorse would have no such empathy for the creatures he sees injured. He would be more likely to laugh or intellectualize about what they are experiencing.

People are complex creatures, and can often harbor seemingly contradictory emotions, feelings, values and morals all at the same time.
We can all be heroes and villains at the same time.

We should resist the belief that any single behavior should define anybody for all time, across all situations...for the most part.

I won't bother detailing the exceptions to what I just said, as it will just generate another demonstration of selective attention.

I am done with trying to explain and justify what ought to be obvious to somebody who purports to understand anything Gurdjieff supposedly said.
Please tell me that you haven't also had extensive experience with parents whose "tremendous" child-raising responsibilities have led them to refer to their kids as *ocksuckers. :rolleyes:

[socialnetworker]

Horses who die on the track after being administered powerful painkillers have had BUTCHERS as trainers...

"Yet no accident over the last three years can match what occurred in a single race on Feb. 29, at Hollywood Casino at Charles Town Races in West Virginia. Eight horses started. Seven fell. One finished. Along the way, seven jockeys were left scattered on the ground. The next and final race was canceled, not just because it took so long to clear the track, but also because too few jockeys were available or willing to ride."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html

Many tracks do their best to eliminate any information about how and why horses are dying.

I think most can agree that the situation is atrocious.

IF favorites win roughly only a third of the time, how much of that is due to the times that they are being raced and should not be - due to health and fitness issues?

Nobody can argue that the things exposed by PETA do not exist, and the Sport is in dire need of a Makeover.


I disagree with the use of the word "Butcher" being hurled on the basis of small samples of behavior...or perhaps on the basis of any sample size.


I do not see much evidence of name-calling as being a successful change agent in any of the situations I have observed over the years.

I am at a loss as to what Term would be the most appropriate...

But I think "Criminal" needs to be used more often, if anything.

Horse Racing has Federal Protection in terms of Gambling Laws...and I think it deserves Federal Regulation if it is going to get a free ride as Legalized Gambling - when we risk going to Jail for playing Poker in our own homes in some jurisdictions.

There is no way to get local race tracks to help clean up the game when states are allowed to set their own rules, and it is easy to buy state officials one way or another.

Let's start with autopsies/necropsies on all horses who die at tracks, at a minimum.

[thaskalos]

"Yet no accident over the last three years can match what occurred in a single race on Feb. 29, at Hollywood Casino at Charles Town Races in West Virginia. Eight horses started. Seven fell. One finished. Along the way, seven jockeys were left scattered on the ground. The next and final race was canceled, not just because it took so long to clear the track, but also because too few jockeys were available or willing to ride."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html

Many tracks do their best to eliminate any information about how and why horses are dying.

I think most can agree that the situation is atrocious.

IF favorites win roughly only a third of the time, how much of that is due to the times that they are being raced and should not be - due to health and fitness issues?

Nobody can argue that the things exposed by PETA do not exist, and the Sport is in dire need of a Makeover.


I disagree with the use of the word "Butcher" being hurled on the basis of small samples of behavior...or perhaps on the basis of any sample size.


I do not see much evidence of name-calling as being a successful change agent in any of the situations I have observed over the years.

I am at a loss as to what Term would be the most appropriate...

But I think "Criminal" needs to be used more often, if anything.

Horse Racing has Federal Protection in terms of Gambling Laws...and I think it deserves Federal Regulation if it is going to get a free ride as Legalized Gambling - when we risk going to Jail for playing Poker in our own homes in some jurisdictions.

There is no way to get local race tracks to help clean up the game when states are allowed to set their own rules, and it is easy to buy state officials one way or another.

Let's start with autopsies/necropsies on all horses who die at tracks, at a minimum.

Look...it is out of character for me to attack someone in this manner...especially someone who is relatively new to this site. You are entitled to your opinion...just as I am entitled to mine.

I'll just add this little bit of information...in case you haven't encountered it before:

Extensive studies have been conducted -- whose results have been publicized on this very site -- surrounding the fatal breakdowns that these ill-fated horses have been subjected to...and these studies have been carried out by well-respected veterinarians. Autopsies of these dead horses have revealed that -- in over 80% of the cases -- pre-existing trauma was evident on the very spot of the limb where the fatal breakdown later occurred. Does it take a genius to realize that these horses were brought back to the track before they had recuperated from their pre-existing ailments?

As I already stated...I won't be able to change your opinion on this issue...and you won't be able to change mine.

What do you say we peacefully agree to disagree?

Heck...I even forgive you for bringing Gurdjieff information up to me that you read on Wikipedia. :)

[Redboard]

I like this guy….he really cares… about what?... I haven’t the slightest idea.

I WANT MORE!

[Grits]

I like this guy….he really cares… about what?... I haven’t the slightest idea.

I WANT MORE!

Socialnetworker has found a new home. Weary of Twitter, he had 584,000 tweets, years of frustration trying to concede 140 characters or less. More were bottled up inside. He had to get them out. And he did. In his first 11 posts. :eek:

WTF ... Well That's Fine
WTF ... What The F***

I'll let you gentlemen decide which. :lol:

[LottaKash]

Is it any wonder that so many horses are dying and breaking down these days, when the truth be known on the "human" side of things, that it is apparently much worse....It seems that we live in a "drug mentality" state of mind these days, imo...

http://chriskresser.com/medical-care-is-the-3rd-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us

excerpt:
The most shocking revelation of her report is that iatrogentic damage (defined as a state of ill health or adverse effect resulting from medical treatment) is the third leading cause of death in the U.S., after heart disease and cancer.
Let me pause while you take that in.

This means that doctors and hospitals are responsible for more deaths each year than cerebrovascular disease, chronic respiratory diseases, accidents, diabetes, Alzheimer’s disease and pneumonia.

The combined effect of errors and adverse effects that occur because of iatrogenic damage includes:


12,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery
7,000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals
20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals
80,000 deaths/year from nosocomial infections in hospitals
106,000 deaths a year from nonerror, adverse effects of medications
This amounts to a total of 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes. However, Starfield notes three important caveats in her study:


Most of the data are derived from studies in hospitalized patients
The estimates are for deaths only and do not include adverse effects associated with disability or discomfort
The estimates of death due to error are lower than those in the Institute of Medicine Report (a previous report by the Institute of Medicine on the number of iatrogenic deaths in the U.S.)

If these caveats are considered, the deaths due to iatrogenic causes would range from 230,000 to 284,000.