What handicapping software package do you recommend?

[SpotPlays]

...and why? Interested in feedback here from the group. Thank you!

[Pensacola Pete]

The ones discussed in the Handicapping Software forum folder.

[SpotPlays]

You mean all 4 threads? One of which is that stupid App and another PP generator? Thanks

[JustRalph]

Start here


HTR

The HorseStreet Handicapper

Jcapper


RDSS Racing Decision Support System

Do a search on this board or google for any of the above. Tons of discussion threads over the last ten years on all of these.

I'm sure others will post other packages. All of the above packages principles/creators etc are members of this board. They are all first rate guys and they have endured for a reason. They all have their own comprehensive websites too. I urge you to visit them.

This should take you about two weeks to look into all of these packages. Get busy

[Clocker]

You mean all 4 threads? One of which is that stupid App and another PP generator? Thanks

There are currently over 2500 threads in that forum folder.

[Pensacola Pete]

You mean all 4 threads? One of which is that stupid App and another PP generator? Thanks

If you change the drop down box from "Last Month" to "Beginning" you will have over 2,600 threads and over 41,0000 posts going back to March of 2001.

[RaceBookJoe]

You mean all 4 threads? One of which is that stupid App and another PP generator? Thanks

"that stupid App" is actually pretty cool.

[ldiatone]

If you change the drop down box from "Last Month" to "Beginning" you will have over 2,600 threads and over 41,0000 posts going back to March of 2001.
cool :cool:

[Some_One]

What are you looking for in a software package?

[SpotPlays]

Mainly a black box method that produces good enough results to beat the takeout.

Sounds simple, right? ;)

[acorn54]

i see you joined pa in 2009, yet only made 50 or so posts, have you spent alot of time studying handicapping?
what has been my experience is that it is a very time consuming endeavor to beat the takeout, and i have only once in the past 7 years myself. the other years i consistently am minus 1-2 percent roi WITH a rebate.
i have found after using various softwares for analyzing horseraces over the years, that i get what i pay for. it's called capitalism.

[Moto Pete]

There is no such thing as a black box. JMO.

[Robert Goren]

I believe raybo has some sort of Blackbox using excel. I don't know if he is still selling it or not. A few others posters here have blackboxes, but I think they have cut off any more sales of them.

[lansdale]

There is no such thing as a black box. JMO.

Not true.

[traynor]

Not true.

It could be argued that a "black box" is virtually the only type of app that can leverage a statistical advantage. Mix in subjective opinion, and--because that subjective opinion is only vaguely repeatable--regression modeling becomes a joke. Declarations that black box apps are impossible are usually made by those who are unable to program them.

[acorn54]

we are getting off topic, the op asked what software is recommended and why

[raybo]

It could be argued that a "black box" is virtually the only type of app that can leverage a statistical advantage. Mix in subjective opinion, and--because that subjective opinion is only vaguely repeatable--regression modeling becomes a joke. Declarations that black box apps are impossible are usually made by those who are unable to program them.

I agree, once you stick subjective analysis into the mix, your software's stats go right out the window. So, if you want to know the true value of any handicapping software, just look at yourself, because the vast majority of good handicapping programs do not make picks for you, they allow you to make picks using better tools. But, if you are not extremely consistent in the subjective processes you use to make quality betting decisions, you are probably wasting your time with any non-black box software, if your goal is long term profitability. The key to any profitable method is in finding something that statistically produces profits, over time, and then judiciously apply the same, repeatable, subjective analysis in arriving at your actual bets. Really, a black box (and they do exist, regardless of all the "it's impossible"s out there) is theoretically the best way to approach the goal of profitability in racing, because a black box is entirely mechanical in nature, which means its results are repeatable. The same cannot be said of non-black box applications, they are just tools, the brunt of the decision making still falls on the user.

That being said, all the afore mentioned pieces of software are very good applications, it's the user that usually screws them up. Even black boxes can be ruined by the user if they cannot, or refuse, to follow the rules that go along with the software. Unfortunately, there are few players that have the ability to trust any software completely, they have to inject things that are losing propositions over time, so they have almost no chance of ever being profitable, with any method, or any software. Sad but true.

[raybo]

we are getting off topic, the op asked what software is recommended and why

You're right, but the OP stated that he wanted "basically" a black box that beats the takeout (what's that, 15%-18% losses on win betting?). Well, dang, if you can't beat the takeout with a piece of software, then that doesn't say much about the validity of the software, or the user, or both.

If I were looking for software, I would be looking for a loss percentage that is less than the rebate I'm getting (and I seriously doubt anyone gets 15-18% rebates).

Just saying------

[traynor]

The choice of software application is dependent on the expectations of the user. If the user expects the software application to tell him or her which horse to bet on, ONLY a black box application should be considered, and (most if not all) subjective opinion and deviations from recommended strategy avoided.

If the user is pursuing wagering and race analysis as a hobby, fully understands that non-black box software apps primarily present the same data (as available in hard copy) in different format rather than creating new information, HTR is a great choice.

The reason? Regression study capabilities make it an outstanding learning tool.

[Fingal]

The choice of software application is dependent on the expectations of the user. If the user expects the software application to tell him or her which horse to bet on, ONLY a black box application should be considered, and (most if not all) subjective opinion and deviations from recommended strategy avoided.

If the user is pursuing wagering and race analysis as a hobby, fully understands that non-black box software apps primarily present the same data (as available in hard copy) in different format rather than creating new information, HTR is a great choice.

The reason? Regression study capabilities make it an outstanding learning tool.

That last line is what leads to finding a black box. Because when you do that, they do exist.

But as I believe Huey Mahl said, " the average lifespan of any system is 3 days." Something may actually have a great basis of research & overall performance, but after a bad day or 2 the impatient user finds themselves to move on to the next latest & greatest. That's why there's a thing called percentages because not even a black box is always picking the winner 100% of the time.

When something simple works & you strive to make it better, you usually make it worse.

[traynor]

That last line is what leads to finding a black box. Because when you do that, they do exist.

But as I believe Huey Mahl said, " the average lifespan of any system is 3 days." Something may actually have a great basis of research & overall performance, but after a bad day or 2 the impatient user finds themselves to move on to the next latest & greatest. That's why there's a thing called percentages because not even a black box is always picking the winner 100% of the time.

When something simple works & you strive to make it better, you usually make it worse.

Again, it is the expectation of the user that is paramount. If the user expects to get something that will work forever and ever the same way, he or she is in need of a serious reality check. Top-drawer race analysis apps are like jet planes--the "pilots" are wholly dependent on a very competent flight crew to keep their equipment operational.

[traynor]

Another great learning app is All-Ways--especially if you can get the pre-built track filters from current users. Most are track-specific, up-to-date, and (usually) the latest 500-900 or so races.

The advantages are substantial. On one hand, it can get a new user off to a running start using the software. On the other, it will VERY quickly point out the deficiencies in parsing clumps of past races to predict the outcome of future races. Specifically, it will enable the user to quickly distinguish between race models that are predictive (very, very few) and race models that are simply descriptive (almost all).

In addition, the All-Ways newsletters (free) have a lot of very useful information.

[thoroughbred]

Mainly a black box method that produces good enough results to beat the takeout.

Sounds simple, right? ;)

SpotPlays:

One of the CompuTrak outputs, "CompuTrak Picks" is a black box feature.

[Note: To be up front with this, I am the producer of the program.]

[thoroughbred]

Mainly a black box method that produces good enough results to beat the takeout.

Sounds simple, right? ;)

SpotPlays:

One of the CompuTrak outputs, "CompuTrak Picks" is a black box feature.

[Note: To be up front with this, I am the producer of the program.]

[traynor]

SpotPlays:

One of the CompuTrak outputs, "CompuTrak Picks" is a black box feature.

[Note: To be up front with this, I am the producer of the program.]

To be up front about this, I bet on races (as opposed to handicapping races as a way to pass time to avoid boredom). "Black box" could define something that outputs, "Bet #4!" in every race. The term "black box" means simply that no subjective interpretation is necessary of the output. What most would hope it means (but ordinarily does not) is that the selections so chosen would show a profit if wagered.

Your quote implies (without explicitly stating) that your black box feature is "good enough to beat the takeout"--which most would interpret as meaning (again, without explicit definition) an ROI exceeding 1.0.

If that is the case, I would be extremely interested in learning more about your black box method--especially its performance over time (as opposed to "picked 5 of 9 at Nowhere Downs yesterday").

I don't mean to be argumentative, or to demean your product in any way. I am skeptical by nature, and reluctant to buy what may be an empty box, regardless of color. Tell me more. If it is profitable, I want it. I like profit.

[thaskalos]

To be up front about this, I bet on races (as opposed to handicapping races as a way to pass time to avoid boredom). "Black box" could define something that outputs, "Bet #4!" in every race. The term "black box" means simply that no subjective interpretation is necessary of the output. What most would hope it means (but ordinarily does not) is that the selections so chosen would show a profit if wagered.

Your quote implies (without explicitly stating) that your black box feature is "good enough to beat the takeout"--which most would interpret as meaning (again, without explicit definition) an ROI exceeding 1.0.

If that is the case, I would be extremely interested in learning more about your black box method--especially its performance over time (as opposed to "picked 5 of 9 at Nowhere Downs yesterday").

I don't mean to be argumentative, or to demean your product in any way. I am skeptical by nature, and reluctant to buy what may be an empty box, regardless of color. Tell me more. If it is profitable, I want it. I like profit.

You say that..."if it's profitable, I want it".

Do you believe that someone would put "profit" in a box, and sell it to you? :)

[Robert Goren]

I would like to toot my own horn and say that I am taking pre-orders now for my forth coming software. It will be several years before it is completely developed but you can get in now for a mere $2500. It will cost many times than that when it is fully developed.

[thoroughbred]

To be up front about this, I bet on races (as opposed to handicapping races as a way to pass time to avoid boredom). "Black box" could define something that outputs, "Bet #4!" in every race. The term "black box" means simply that no subjective interpretation is necessary of the output. What most would hope it means (but ordinarily does not) is that the selections so chosen would show a profit if wagered.

Your quote implies (without explicitly stating) that your black box feature is "good enough to beat the takeout"--which most would interpret as meaning (again, without explicit definition) an ROI exceeding 1.0.

If that is the case, I would be extremely interested in learning more about your black box method--especially its performance over time (as opposed to "picked 5 of 9 at Nowhere Downs yesterday").

I don't mean to be argumentative, or to demean your product in any way. I am skeptical by nature, and reluctant to buy what may be an empty box, regardless of color. Tell me more. If it is profitable, I want it. I like profit.


Traynor,

All you may wish to know, and more, about CompuTrak, can be viewed on our website: www.revelationprofits.com

Thoroughbred (owner)

[Eddie W]

Prof Jones level 6....The perfect program....But it is no longer on the
market...But it is the best overall program.....TCB

[JJMartin]

Prof Jones level 6....The perfect program....But it is no longer on the
market...But it is the best overall program.....TCB

I doubt it.

[raybo]

You say that..."if it's profitable, I want it".

Do you believe that someone would put "profit" in a box, and sell it to you? :)

I believe the the answer to that is, yes. But, keep in mind that the term "long term" is usually associated with this subject. And as you well know, "long term" is not what the vast majority of players are wanting, they are wanting immediate profits, and they don't want to have to weather losing streaks of more than a few bets. In other words, the vast majority of players would not stick with it, through thick and thin in order to realize long term profit, but abandon it, as was mentioned earlier, as soon as the first bump in the road happened. There is very little chance that someone offering such a program would have to worry much about his own prices being dramatically affected by selling the program to a limited number of users, as most of them might not play the same tracks or the same races, at the same odds requirements, on the same days, or with the same method (if the program offered more than one rankings method). And, of course, those users would have to learn to operate the program first of all (cut out many potential competitors on the same bets), and become fully acquainted with all the "good stuff" that inevitably becomes available to those who are truly diligent (which cuts out a whole lot more potential long term price competitors). You can go on and on with this kind of stuff.

The creator of the program, invariably, knows the program better than anyone else, and knows how to take full advantage of all its capabilities, and of course there will be a "very few" users who become "intimate" with the program (through supreme diligence), enough so to use it to it's fullest potential. Just ask any of the creators of any of the good software programs available, I'm sure they will tell you that only a small percentage of the users of the program exploit it to its maximum potential, and actually make long term profit using it.

Any "black box" program worth its weight, will always be beyond some mere horse picking program, or analysis tool, any program is capable of producing picks (if the creator of the program so wishes), but as we all know, picking horses is not nearly enough to be profitable.

Speaking for my own program, it has always been told to prospective users that the user must do "work" in order to test tracks to find what works, at which of those tracks, at what times of the year, at what odds ranges, etc.. Still, most do not realize that they must continually do the work involved, they think that once they find something that is working, it will always be the same, never changing. That realization is where most "jump ship", they just don't want to work for it, they want it given to them, once and for all. The game changes, conditions change, everything changes, which means that the program must change also, and that requires some continual work to be done by the user. Unfortunately, very few are willing to do the work, keep calm during bad streaks, trust the testing, and not quit.

As you and I both know, Gus, there are very few players that possess all of the individual characteristics to beat this game, or to threaten those few who do, regardless of the programs or methods they try to use. There are many here that are far smarter and/or more experienced than you or me, but they still lose money over time, and have done so for years on end, because they just don't have all of what it really takes, intelligence and experience are only a percentage of the complete package. If this weren't the truth, then there would be a whole lot more profitable players out there, because there are some very intelligent and very experienced players, on this forum alone. So, for those who possess the ability to create a profitable black box, or profitable analysis tool/program, they have very little to worry about by offering it to others.

[acorn54]

i am one of those horseplayers that always lose
in my thirty five years of betting on horses i have not won money when adding up the cost of the data and the bets made.
i have not been a big loser mind you but around 500-1000 dollars in losses on average/yr.
yet, in my foray into the stock market i have made a nice sum from year one.so it seems everyone can have their knack for successful gambling, whether it be a farmer, gambling that his investment in seed to grow crops will make him a good living, or stocks, and for some gambling horses. everyone just has to find their niche and be honest about their abilities.

[traynor]

You say that..."if it's profitable, I want it".

Do you believe that someone would put "profit" in a box, and sell it to you? :)

About as much as you do. And that is on a good day. That is why I write my own, from the ground up--including all the initial, ongoing, and maintenance research and testing.

[DRIVEWAY]

i am one of those horseplayers that always lose
in my thirty five years of betting on horses i have not won money when adding up the cost of the data and the bets made.
i have not been a big loser mind you but around 500-1000 dollars in losses on average/yr.
yet, in my foray into the stock market i have made a nice sum from year one.so it seems everyone can have their knack for successful gambling, whether it be a farmer, gambling that his investment in seed to grow crops will make him a good living, or stocks, and for some gambling horses. everyone just has to find their niche and be honest about their abilities.

If you were to look at being a horseplayer as a hobby, how would you describe your activity i.e. fun, challenging, interesting, frustrating, waste of time, exciting, expensive/inexpensive ....

[acorn54]

If you were to look at being a horseplayer as a hobby, how would you describe your activity i.e. fun, challenging, interesting, frustrating, waste of time, exciting, expensive/inexpensive ....

it has given me alot of fun times and i would say i have had all the emotions you mention and it has given me a social outlet, and on many occassions when i wake up in the morning something to look forward to. and it has been inexpensive for me in relation to other forms of entertainment.
i hope this has been the experience of many others on this board.

[bugboy]

Acorn, I agree with you 100% it gives me entertainment and at my age something to look forward to. :)

[SpotPlays]

Not sure I found the answer, LOL, but thank you everyone for the feedback.

[Moto Pete]

I think Just Ralph gave you the top 4 back on page 1. I've only used HTR so I can't say it's the best but I can say it's a fantastic program. If I have any criticism it's that it can be overwhelming. It's easy to get information overload. There's the Robot for spot plays and race identifying, Tour for tournament players and a Modeler if that's your style. If your a Sartin disciple there's all the velocity info you need. If you want to just straight handicap all you need is the main HTR screen. All the info you'll ever need is there. I'm particularly fond of the TRNR button/page. The best info on trainer/jock stats out there.

[Capper Al]

About as much as you do. And that is on a good day. That is why I write my own, from the ground up--including all the initial, ongoing, and maintenance research and testing.

I write my own also, but do believe some are out there profiting using commercial software. Those that do profit using commercial software already know horses and the horse racing game. Opening the software box alone won't get it. But it can assist very well.

[traynor]

I write my own also, but do believe some are out there profiting using commercial software. Those that do profit using commercial software already know horses and the horse racing game. Opening the software box alone won't get it. But it can assist very well.

I think a lot of that has to do with the definition of "profit." For a casual bettor, a commercial app that enables him or her to make a little, break even, or lose less is great.

For anyone serious about making money, or for serious wagering, I don't think anyone is going to use anything but her or his own (whether self-written or sub-contracted) software. When the serious money is involved, the idea of anyone with a few bucks and a data download being able to take pieces of their private pie is cause for alarm.

One should understand that the proliferation of handicapping software (and the use of the output of that software by casual bettors) is a direct source of profit to serious bettors--who are using their own software.

[TonyMLake]

I wrote my own. I don't sell it (although there's a .99 cent 'custom algorithm' addition you can buy as a favor to me). But I do give it away. It's really more than one app:

There's a desktop version for windows, which imports Formulator files from your purchased DRF. That's right - you don't even have to type anything in in order to handicap the races. If you don't have Windows, there is a JAVA version of the import utility for Mac, Linux, or if you just hate the Windows version.

The imported files can be analyzed from the Windows Desktop app, or loaded to an android device (phone or tablet) version of the app.

I use a java app I wrote to pick the Kelly Criterion for wins. I bet fractionally the Kelly Criterion amount to win, and 3/2 - 2x that bet to place. It doesn't make a lot of difference if you follow the typical pattern: For example, $2 wins and $3 places. Simple, straight bets.

I only bet on 5 furlong to 1.5 mile races on dirt or all-weather surface. No turf, and not even a drop of rain.

I select about ten races, from the best possible tracks and best quality races of the day. I don't include a single race where even one single data score is missing or zero... for example, if any horse has a zero speed or track variant in the PP's within the last three races, I throw out the whole race. IF there's a zero Beyer, that race is out.

The horse I bet on is the favorite according to one of the several algorithms included in the software. I skip the race if the favorite is tied or scores too closely according to the algorithm with the second best horse.

The JAVA and Windows stuff is available on the web. The android stuff is at the Google PlayStore - again, free to use except the custom algorithm - which is .99 cents and you'll probably never need it unless you know exactly why you want it.

I routinely get flamed for various reasons... such as... THIS APP DOESN'T EVEN LOOK A THE HORSE'S COLOR!!! ... and .... THIS APP DOESN'T CONSIDER FIRST TIME LASIX??? And etc. I do better than anyone I know, and the hardest part is just sticking to doing EXACTLY what I said above. When I lose, it's usually less than 5%. When I win, it's usually more than 150% my original bankroll. Overall, I win. I've been at the track since 1985, and have been winning since 2008. My percentage improved remarkably in the last four years.

Since I don't want anyone to accuse me of advertising - I won't even mention the name of the apps online. I'm not selling anything, anyway, but I'd definitely be interested in sharing the download location and name of the apps privately with anyone who wants to peruse the apps or the Google play store in exchange for a little private feedback BASED ON YOUR ACTUAL USE OF THE PRODUCT AT THE RACES. I want to know how you use the app, or why you won't. I want to know if you follow the exact same procedure I do, but at your chosen races and tracks if you also make money.

Althought there are approaching a thousand active users of the Android version of the app, I'm definitely a "small time operator", I guess, so I'm not altogether too worried about making the market more or less efficient with my programs... hehe...

Anyone wants to give it a shot, message me.

Thanks folks! Love this thread.

[raybo]

I wrote my own. I don't sell it (although there's a .99 cent 'custom algorithm' addition you can buy as a favor to me). But I do give it away. It's really more than one app:

There's a desktop version for windows, which imports Formulator files from your purchased DRF. That's right - you don't even have to type anything in in order to handicap the races. If you don't have Windows, there is a JAVA version of the import utility for Mac, Linux, or if you just hate the Windows version.

The imported files can be analyzed from the Windows Desktop app, or loaded to an android device (phone or tablet) version of the app.

I use a java app I wrote to pick the Kelly Criterion for wins. I bet fractionally the Kelly Criterion amount to win, and 3/2 - 2x that bet to place. It doesn't make a lot of difference if you follow the typical pattern: For example, $2 wins and $3 places. Simple, straight bets.

I only bet on 5 furlong to 1.5 mile races on dirt or all-weather surface. No turf, and not even a drop of rain.

I select about ten races, from the best possible tracks and best quality races of the day. I don't include a single race where even one single data score is missing or zero... for example, if any horse has a zero speed or track variant in the PP's within the last three races, I throw out the whole race. IF there's a zero Beyer, that race is out.

The horse I bet on is the favorite according to one of the several algorithms included in the software. I skip the race if the favorite is tied or scores too closely according to the algorithm with the second best horse.

The JAVA and Windows stuff is available on the web. The android stuff is at the Google PlayStore - again, free to use except the custom algorithm - which is .99 cents and you'll probably never need it unless you know exactly why you want it.

I routinely get flamed for various reasons... such as... THIS APP DOESN'T EVEN LOOK A THE HORSE'S COLOR!!! ... and .... THIS APP DOESN'T CONSIDER FIRST TIME LASIX??? And etc. I do better than anyone I know, and the hardest part is just sticking to doing EXACTLY what I said above. When I lose, it's usually less than 5%. When I win, it's usually more than 150% my original bankroll. Overall, I win. I've been at the track since 1985, and have been winning since 2008. My percentage improved remarkably in the last four years.

Since I don't want anyone to accuse me of advertising - I won't even mention the name of the apps online. I'm not selling anything, anyway, but I'd definitely be interested in sharing the download location and name of the apps privately with anyone who wants to peruse the apps or the Google play store in exchange for a little private feedback BASED ON YOUR ACTUAL USE OF THE PRODUCT AT THE RACES. I want to know how you use the app, or why you won't. I want to know if you follow the exact same procedure I do, but at your chosen races and tracks if you also make money.

Althought there are approaching a thousand active users of the Android version of the app, I'm definitely a "small time operator", I guess, so I'm not altogether too worried about making the market more or less efficient with my programs... hehe...

Anyone wants to give it a shot, message me.

Thanks folks! Love this thread.

Interesting! Did you never consider using other file formats, like Brisnet single, or the various HDW client formats, JCapper files for example, or are you just stuck on Formulator data? Not that there's anything wrong with Formulator data, just wondering.

[TonyMLake]

Believe me, with the payouts on the Hong Kong Racing these days, I'm *seriously* considering adding some different data import formats and getting a feed from some other source.

There's some chatter that DRF is going to publish the data, so I'm okay with that if they do. I've emailed them, and although they've always answered me in the past, they've not answered my last two emails regarding this topic.

So, yeah, there's a lot of things I'd add, if I wasn't already happy with my results at the track. For instance, I do think the mudder and turfers ratings are meaningful, and could be useful as an single click button push to recalculate the race on the fly if it starts raining or (insert idea here).

The program is a long term work in progress. I'll add more. Not charging for it, so, anybody who wants to contribute (AND HAS ALL THE PATIENCE IN THE WORLD, hehe) can.

I appreciate not being flamed if my black box doesn't look like everyone else's black box... hehe...

Thanks!

[raybo]

Believe me, with the payouts on the Hong Kong Racing these days, I'm *seriously* considering adding some different data import formats and getting a feed from some other source.

There's some chatter that DRF is going to publish the data, so I'm okay with that if they do. I've emailed them, and although they've always answered me in the past, they've not answered my last two emails regarding this topic.

So, yeah, there's a lot of things I'd add, if I wasn't already happy with my results at the track. For instance, I do think the mudder and turfers ratings are meaningful, and could be useful as an single click button push to recalculate the race on the fly if it starts raining or (insert idea here).

The program is a long term work in progress. I'll add more. Not charging for it, so, anybody who wants to contribute (AND HAS ALL THE PATIENCE IN THE WORLD, hehe) can.

I appreciate not being flamed if my black box doesn't look like everyone else's black box... hehe...

Thanks!

So, are you saying that there is chatter that DRF may publish Hong Kong racing data? Also, by "getting a feed from some other source" am I to assume that you're getting live tote info into your program? Or, are you just talking about another betting site?

Believe me, I know what it's like to go your own way, creating handicapping methods that are different than everyone else's. But then, that's how you enable yourself to win, IMO, by doing things that the vast majority of people aren't doing. So, if your method truly produces profit like you say, keep doing what you're doing, by all means! :ThmbUp:

[TonyMLake]

Andrew Beyer first wrote about the HUMONGOUS payouts on overseas races in 2011. See the article here, for example: Hong Kong's Big Pools command Attention (http://www.drf.com/news/hong-kongs-big-pools-command-attention)

There are other articles posted on DRF as well, and of course, if you go looking, you'll find rumors on the various blogs.

... so.. yeah.. there's chatter... but based on DRF's lack of reply to my emails, it might not happen. Don't know why not though, there's already a track (Is it Woodbine??) which publishes its foreign simulcasts in the DRF as PPs, so, we know it can be done. Right now, the main data set is coming from the "Hong Kong Jockey Club" if I recall correctly. Check out www.hkjc.com (http:// www.hkjc.com)

As for a "feed", no, I didn't mean a live tote feed, just meant an importable data set for PPs... but yes, a live tote feed would ROCK. I have been considering putting a live data feed of the tote into my Kelly Criterion app, though. The only way I can think of to do it is for people who use TVG as their bookie. I may try it some day. Don't know.

As for producing big profits, meh, only as big as I bet... I'm super conservative. I rarely bet more than $100 in a day - but PROFIT over time nevertheless. Anybody who wants to try it for, say, 50 races or so, it'll cost you nothing to find out. Just PM me and I'll link you to the app. That's what this thread about after all, right?

[TonyMLake]

Here's an example of my conservative betting, from Derby day.

I assume everyone did pretty well that day, but - I used my black box, didn't have to type in any data or do many calculations. I only had to pick the races to bet that day.

Here's the races I picked and my top four horses for those 10 races on Derby Day:
My Ten Races (https://www.covers.com/postingforum/POST01/showmessage.aspx?action=quote&ur=TonyMLake&id=120812905&spt=61&sub=101881640&page=1) I picked my highest scoring horse to win and place.

Note the date I posted the picks.

Conservative, but I did manage to turn my $60 into $93.

[kingfin66]

I did a search for Tony Lake's Android handicapping app. It does look to be absolutely free. Tony appears to be reticent to post a link here due to wanting to comply with TOS. I believe that I am well within TOS if I post the link here. Qualifiers: I have no association with Tony, did not hear of him until he posted in this thread, and I have not tried the app as I have an Apple product.

Handicapper Plus Mobile (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atoznet.handicappermobile)

[TonyMLake]

Well, it's okay with me.

If you create a member account at handicapperplus.com you can download a JAVA utility to import from formulator to your tablet or phone... OR, you can import directly to the Windows version of Handicapper that's also available there as well (Which you can then export to your phone).

Unless you like typing data in. Whatever floats your boat.

All I ask is you don't pick ridiculous races, and give it 50 races or so before complain about the algorithm. The one you want is the "Handicapper Plus Algorithm".

Just go with it's top pick.

That's it. B L A C K B O X as you're probably ever going to find.

[JimG]

Well, it's okay with me.

If you create a member account at handicapperplus.com you can download a JAVA utility to import from formulator to your tablet or phone... OR, you can import directly to the Windows version of Handicapper that's also available there as well (Which you can then export to your phone).

Unless you like typing data in. Whatever floats your boat.

All I ask is you don't pick ridiculous races, and give it 50 races or so before complain about the algorithm. The one you want is the "Handicapper Plus Algorithm".

Just go with it's top pick.

That's it. B L A C K B O X as you're probably ever going to find.

If you could write a utility to import from bris drf single file format you would find many more people here wanting to try it.

Jim

[TonyMLake]

Yeah, I was pretty sure that was the case before I mentioned my app. I'd love to add sooo many things to it, but ultimately decided the central core was solid enough to help me come out a winner, and decided to leave well enough alone.

My program's approach works well for me - and the thread was about software we as individuals use and black box approaches to profit, so, I thought I'd chime in. To tell you the truth, I don't love looking at my data as much as I used to. I'm more excited about leaving the track "up" or making a profit at the track, so, I ignore a lot of information many people would consider - ie., I throw out the more complex races.

Initially, I wasn't going to post a link to it at all because I know most people here care a whole lot about data that my app does not look at; but, I wanted to take part in the thread, and someone else posted a link to the Android version of the app and surprised me.

I don't mind if people want to try the mobile and/or desktop version of the app for the purpose of having a decent black box, obviously, or I wouldn't have published it... albeit I do acknowledge it is not the same black box everyone else wrote or would write.

I've been considering just posting my EXACT bets in advance like I have occasionally done elsewhere (see the covers.com link above)... but, hey, the program is free... so, if anyone wants to know if it works, you can ask me about it in a PM or try the "Handicapper Plus Desktop" version for $0. I'll refund your purchase price if you're not happy ;^)

As for the Original OP's question.... Handicapper Plus Desktop and Handicapper Plus Mobile, both free, are the apps I use... and since I don't even type anything in, my handicapping discipline lies almost entirely in picking which races are worth betting on. To me, that's a serviceable black box.

[TonyMLake]

Can anyone send me a copy of one of the Brisnet files?

Thanks

[mabred]

sent

[TonyMLake]

Well, I had more replies than I expected, so, if it's okay, I'd like to just point out a couple of things.

Handicapper gets data from the Daily Racing Form, either the actual printed paper edition, or the electronic basic past performances. If you use the newspaper edition, you have to type some data in. If you use Daily Racing Form's electronic "CLASSIC PDF" past performances (or any of the more expensive versions), you can import the data directly using the online utility available free at DRF.com. It's called Formulator. I assumed most people were familiar with it, and that was an error on my part. Sorry about that, folks. If you're familiar with DRF.com and Formulator, just buy your Form, go to the forumlator, and click on "Export".

Secondly, after some review (Thanks to several of you), yes, it does appear I could add the ability to import Brisnet files into my app. I really will do this *someday* - based solely on the demand due to the price difference, apparently. It will take me a long time, sorry, I work a lot, but I do update Handicapper at least every couple weeks or so.

Meanwhile, I'm perfectly confident to post a "I'll show you mine, you show me yours" right here - IF that doesn't violate the TOS. We all know a couple of races proves nothing, but my point is to show that perhaps my "Free" picks are comparable to any of the more expensive apps.

I'll pick some races here later today and post a few picks. If somebody wants to do a comparison of what JCapper picks versus what Handicapper Plus picks, please post the picks for the exact same races.

Would that be okay?

[TonyMLake]

Well, normally, I probably wouldn't even take the race because the leader is too close to the second favorite. To me, this is a very close race. A few people have asked for some picks so they could compare, so I'll go ahead and post the black box output here, as generated by the Handicapper Plus Desktop program. If anyone downloaded either the Android app or the desktop app and wants a copy of the Handicapper format file, just ask. So, here's my picks with their relative scores:

TODAY, July 20, 2014
Saratoga
Race 10 THE TVG COACHING CLUB AMERICAN OAKS
6 Taketheodds 100
1 Stopchargingmaria 99
4 Courageous Julie 96
2 Unbridled Forever 96
3 Miss Besilu 96
5 America 93

My bet is just $5 to win and $10 to place on Taketheodds.

SOOOooooo... what's JCapper say?

[Maximillion]

Well, normally, I probably wouldn't even take the race because the leader is too close to the second favorite. To me, this is a very close race. A few people have asked for some picks so they could compare, so I'll go ahead and post the black box output here, as generated by the Handicapper Plus Desktop program. If anyone downloaded either the Android app or the desktop app and wants a copy of the Handicapper format file, just ask. So, here's my picks with their relative scores:

TODAY, July 20, 2014
Saratoga
Race 10 THE TVG COACHING CLUB AMERICAN OAKS
6 Taketheodds 100
1 Stopchargingmaria 99
4 Courageous Julie 96
2 Unbridled Forever 96
3 Miss Besilu 96
5 America 93

My bet is just $5 to win and $10 to place on Taketheodds.

SOOOooooo... what's JCapper say?



Tony,
Congrats on your success with the program.
I do have a question though.......if you have been winning since 2008,why havent you increased the size of your bets?

[TonyMLake]

Well, I still have two jobs, too, so - I didn't quit doing everything else and become a professional handicapper, either, darn it.

I guess it's because on the times I don't come out "up", I don't want to have lost $10,000 or mortgaged the house just for gambling. Other than betting the odds-on favorite to place in a graded race, which does produce a 5% profit over time, there are no statistically known winning algorithms... so... ultimately, while this is a "black box", I'm still counting on me to a) be disciplined to stay OUT of races I am not 100% on and b) be right about the ones I am confident on I already broke rule a) by betting on American Oaks... but hey it's a G-1 and I do break discipline some times on those.

So, I don't risk more than I can afford to lose.

I'll say this though: I actually DECREASED the size of my bets. Why? Because before my algorithm got "pretty good", I blew through $1000s on trifecta boxes, Part Wheels, etc. Now I do mostly win and place bets and ultimately it's all about my win percentage... being anything more than NEGATIVE is a good thing for me. I have a bookie account, and I have not contributed money to it in quite some time. My account goes up and down, but over time, it's grown. I'm satisfied with that for now.

I didn't reply to the thread to say that I was the most profitable bettor out there anyway, I merely posted to reply to the questions "What software do you use", "Who wrote their own", "Is there a blackbox app (that produces reasonably well)?" Perhaps it was a mistake to point out that I had gone from losing to winning by betting in the manner I described, but, I encourage anyone who wants to - to try it for themselves. :^)

[raybo]

Well, normally, I probably wouldn't even take the race because the leader is too close to the second favorite. To me, this is a very close race. A few people have asked for some picks so they could compare, so I'll go ahead and post the black box output here, as generated by the Handicapper Plus Desktop program. If anyone downloaded either the Android app or the desktop app and wants a copy of the Handicapper format file, just ask. So, here's my picks with their relative scores:

TODAY, July 20, 2014
Saratoga
Race 10 THE TVG COACHING CLUB AMERICAN OAKS
6 Taketheodds 100
1 Stopchargingmaria 99
4 Courageous Julie 96
2 Unbridled Forever 96
3 Miss Besilu 96
5 America 93

My bet is just $5 to win and $10 to place on Taketheodds.

SOOOooooo... what's JCapper say?

You're right, this one isn't a good race to play, but ---.

This isn't from JCapper, but I'll take a shot with my BB's output (my PFV rankings method):

1 STOPCHARGINGMARIA --- 56.44
6 TAKETHEODDS ------------ 54.79
5 AMERICA ------------------ 54.66
2 UNBRIDLED FOREVER ---- 54.60
3 MISS BESILU -------------- 53.97
4 COURAGEOUS JULIE ------ 53.81

I'll play any, or all, of my top 3 ranked horses, to win, if they are at least 2/1 odds as the first horse enters the gate, which means I probably won't be betting the 1.

[Jeff P]

SOOOooooo... what's JCapper say?
Can't speak for anyone but myself here... but I'm going to sit this one out. Small field. Not enough "race."

Good luck with your pick though,


-jp

.

[TexasDolly]

Yeah, I was pretty sure that was the case before I mentioned my app. I'd love to add sooo many things to it, but ultimately decided the central core was solid enough to help me come out a winner, and decided to leave well enough alone.

My program's approach works well for me - and the thread was about software we as individuals use and black box approaches to profit, so, I thought I'd chime in. To tell you the truth, I don't love looking at my data as much as I used to. I'm more excited about leaving the track "up" or making a profit at the track, so, I ignore a lot of information many people would consider - ie., I throw out the more complex races.

Initially, I wasn't going to post a link to it at all because I know most people here care a whole lot about data that my app does not look at; but, I wanted to take part in the thread, and someone else posted a link to the Android version of the app and surprised me.

I don't mind if people want to try the mobile and/or desktop version of the app for the purpose of having a decent black box, obviously, or I wouldn't have published it... albeit I do acknowledge it is not the same black box everyone else wrote or would write.

I've been considering just posting my EXACT bets in advance like I have occasionally done elsewhere (see the covers.com link above)... but, hey, the program is free... so, if anyone wants to know if it works, you can ask me about it in a PM or try the "Handicapper Plus Desktop" version for $0. I'll refund your purchase price if you're not happy ;^)

As for the Original OP's question.... Handicapper Plus Desktop and Handicapper Plus Mobile, both free, are the apps I use... and since I don't even type anything in, my handicapping discipline lies almost entirely in picking which races are worth betting on. To me, that's a serviceable black box.

Hi Tony,
How do I obtain a copy of the Handicapper Plus desktop ?
Thank you,
TD

[Jeff P]

SOOOooooo... what's JCapper say?
Moving to Gulfstream R10, I'm seeing more "race" -maybe enough to create a little value.

I like #7 WAR ARTIST at 4/1 Morning Line...

I need a strike price of about 2/1

At about 2 mtp I see 3/1 on the toteboard.

If I can get my 2/1 strike price:

5 units win #7


If I can get 1/1 odds:

1 unit exacta part wheels:

7 ~ 11-1

and

7 ~ 11-1-3-10-14

Good luck to all,



-jp

.

[TonyMLake]

Good job on Saratoga, Raybo.

I was too late for Gulfstream 10 but I'd love to do this again sometime when we can look at the races in advance. We all apparently have our black boxes, but, I do like to actually study the races... hehe...Is posting picks allowed here or is there a special thread for it or something?

(You can download Handicapper Plus for Android devices from the Google Play Store. The Windows Desktop version has built in import features from DRF and the best way to get it is to create a free member account at HandicapperPlus.com and click on the link from the member page. Otherwise, you can just click HERE (ftp://atoznet.com/pub/HandicapperPlus/Handicapper%20Plus%20Desktop.exe) )

[raybo]

Good job on Saratoga, Raybo.

I was too late for Gulfstream 10 but I'd love to do this again sometime when we can look at the races in advance. We all apparently have our black boxes, but, I do like to actually study the races... hehe...Is posting picks allowed here or is there a special thread for it or something?

(You can download Handicapper Plus for Android devices from the Google Play Store. The Windows Desktop version has built in import features from DRF and the best way to get it is to create a free member account at HandicapperPlus.com and click on the link from the member page. Otherwise, you can just click HERE (ftp://atoznet.com/pub/HandicapperPlus/Handicapper%20Plus%20Desktop.exe) )

Thanks, but StopChargingMaria had quite a ratings gap on the rest of the field, just wish I could have bet her, but the odds prevented that. I was hoping the 5 would jump up and run a really good race, but she was never in it.

There is a "Selections" area here where you will find plenty of action, if you're just posting picks. if you want to get a similarly interested group together to post their program's selections, a separate thread in the General Handicapping area would probably be the way to go.

We had a "PA Black Box Challenge" thread here several years ago and it was pretty interesting, forget which area of the forum we did that in. We did 6 different tracks, a different each day for 6 days, all races, 1 pick to win only. There were only a few "true black boxes" so there was another group of people who posted their own picks. I threw a BB together in a couple of hours just for that contest. If I remember right Doug (Handiman), and his free software offering, "HandiFast", won it, I finished 2nd and, soon afterward added that "BB" method into the free AllData Batch processing program.

[Maximillion]

I, sadly do not have anything resembling a black box in my handicapping arsenal.....but if I did, I would gladly put it to use, and I probably wouldnt be betting $ 5 to win and place if it worked over a substantial period of time.

[TonyMLake]

Okay, so how's that strategy working out for you?

This is the place to share your success. I definitely have nothing to hide, as I've made my tools public right here. I'd be super excited to learn how to be as successful as possible. It sounds like you're saying you've got some good knowledge of the track. Tell us your strategy.

[Maximillion]

Okay, so how's that strategy working out for you?

This is the place to share your success. I definitely have nothing to hide, as I've made my tools public right here. I'd be super excited to learn how to be as successful as possible. It sounds like you're saying you've got some good knowledge of the track. Tell us your strategy.

Are you asking me?

[TonyMLake]

Yes, of course Maximillion. You said you wouldn't do things quite the way I do. I'm anxious to know your strategy at the track, if you're willing to share. Since this thread is about handicapping software and black boxes, I'm particularly interested in what software you do use, and how you've put it to good use.

But then, I'm open to incorporating any and every tool into my arsenal as possible! SOOoooo, any useful hints that have made you more successful at the track I'm up for it.

[Maximillion]

Yes, of course Maximillion. You said you wouldn't do things quite the way I do. I'm anxious to know your strategy at the track, if you're willing to share. Since this thread is about handicapping software and black boxes, I'm particularly interested in what software you do use, and how you've put it to good use.

But then, I'm open to incorporating any and every tool into my arsenal as possible! SOOoooo, any useful hints that have made you more successful at the track I'm up for it.

I currently do not use any software.
Am I happy with my results?........no

I never said I wouldnt be willing to do the things you do....Im just very skeptical of a "BB" aproach.

My present "strategy" is the the DRF supplemented with timeformusa info.

I put a decent amount of $ thru the windows on a daily basis.....and while I can generally hold my own,my goals are profit and its a tough game.

[TonyMLake]

I understand that. That was my predicament from 1985 to 2009, pretty much. I don't know how much difference in the output of any black box software is going to be, and I think most of the discipline is 90% in staying OUT of races you aren't sure on (in fact, that's why I like MY software so much... it's SIMPLE and FREE and produces results).

That's why I posted some of what disqualifies races for me, above. And to tell you the truth, I usually have to buy formulator data for 6 or more tracks just to get ten bettable races, if then!

And of course, you're right... there will always be some luck involved. I think that's the main thing that keeps me from risking larger amounts of money. I never want to bet more than about 2% of my bankroll. Call me a chicken, but I can definitely lose several races in a row before hitting a good one.

What I'd like to do next is find similar fields in Brisnet data as DRF PPs so I can import either one into the app. That's down the road, though.

[whodoyoulike]

I like what you're doing and your posts Tony. Looking forward to some comparisons of different programs.

Keep it up and hope you contribute more info. Thanks.

[TonyMLake]

Well that's generous of you, thanks!

I'll be around.

[TexasDolly]

Hi Tony,
Is it possible to hand input data in the Handicapper Plus desktop program ? I didn't see how when I ran it .
Thanks,
TD

[TonyMLake]

Sure! Multiple ways, actually- but here's the most basic way.

When you start the program, you're looking at a race card. You can input the information about the race card here (like the date and track). On the bottom right corner of the screen (And in the File Menu) there's an "Add Race" button.

Click "Add Race". That takes you to an individual race screen. On that screen, you can manually enter the race information, like the distance and time, if you want. There's an "Add Horse" button on the bottom right.

Click "Add Horse". Now you're looking at an individual horse's screen.

Manually enter the horse's information. Click "Save and Close" when you're done entering the horse (or "Add Horse" if you want to enter another one).

At this point, you should probably go to the file menu and "Save" the race card.

You can click "Generate Picks" to handicap all the races at once, or open an individual race and click "Solve Race" to handicap that race only.

If I can be of more help, let me know. Maybe best to PM me :^)

[whodoyoulike]

Believe me, with the payouts on the Hong Kong Racing these days, I'm *seriously* considering adding some different data import formats and getting a feed from some other source...


They're on the the damn metric system!!! I should have paid better attention while in school.

[TonyMLake]

Hey TexasDolly, I should probably point out that if you bought your Daily
Racing Form online, you don't really have to type the data in, usually... if you buy online you can export the data directly to Handicapper Plus from DRF.com in the Formulator "Export Center".

Just a heads up. It's not hard to type in, either.

[TexasDolly]

Hey TexasDolly, I should probably point out that if you bought your Daily
Racing Form online, you don't really have to type the data in, usually... if you buy online you can export the data directly to Handicapper Plus from DRF.com in the Formulator "Export Center".

Just a heads up. It's not hard to type in, either.

Thanks for posting the procedure for using the desktop version. No I didn't purchase the DRF. I was planning on entering the
data from a different source as best as I could making realistic substitutions where necessary. I'll try to do a few and let you know how it works out.
Thanks,
TD

[TonyMLake]

If you're doing it from Brisnet files, let me know. I was thinking of adding a switcher to switch between DRF and Bris. My intention was to just swap the Beyer for the pace figure (?). If I understand correctly, Brisnet actually includes the Speed and track variant, so, that would be the same fields.

Otherwise, let me know which substitutions you make. That would GREATLY help me add the import function for Brisnet files and save loads of time.

Thanks

[JimG]

If you're doing it from Brisnet files, let me know. I was thinking of adding a switcher to switch between DRF and Bris. My intention was to just swap the Beyer for the pace figure (?). If I understand correctly, Brisnet actually includes the Speed and track variant, so, that would be the same fields.

Otherwise, let me know which substitutions you make. That would GREATLY help me add the import function for Brisnet files and save loads of time.

Thanks

If I was using bris files, I would substitute the beyer fig column with the bris speed figure. As you said sp+tv are in both files. More apples to apples, imo.

Jim

[TonyMLake]

Thanks, that's what I meant to say. Do you know if there's a programmers Interface or just list of field descriptions for the Brisnet exports?

What's the approximate absolute max range of bris speed figures? for examples, Beyers usually range from 0 - 150 (never seen that high, so atop Beyer of 200 covers me).

Thanks again

[JimG]

Thanks, that's what I meant to say. Do you know if there's a programmers Interface or just list of field descriptions for the Brisnet exports?

What's the approximate absolute max range of bris speed figures? for examples, Beyers usually range from 0 - 150 (never seen that high, so atop Beyer of 200 covers me).

Thanks again

Numerically, they somewhat track the Beyer numbers. The range is about the same with a little variance. Here is the data file format for the bris single data file.

http://brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=drfsff

Jim

[Maximillion]

I currently do not use any software.
Am I happy with my results?........no

I never said I wouldnt be willing to do the things you do....Im just very skeptical of a "BB" aproach.

My present "strategy" is the the DRF supplemented with timeformusa info.

I put a decent amount of $ thru the windows on a daily basis.....and while I can generally hold my own,my goals are profit and its a tough game.

I started typing this out last night but something came up and I had to leave the house.
What I wanted to add to my post was while I am not doing jumping jacks over my current results,I am very happy with the "tools" I am currently using.....I love the drf for its easy (for me) navigation and the info in timeformusa is often deadly accurate.
Me being unsatisfied with my current results is strictly on me.
Its been said before,but I guess it could be argued that what I am now using could also be called "software".
I have a great appreciation for those who are able to create their own....like Raybo and Tony and others........its something that really piques my interest and I do like to read about it.

[TonyMLake]

Jim - this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

So, you'd basically use data from these fields:
846- 855 BRIS Speed Rating NUMERIC 999 3
856- 865 Speed Rating NUMERIC 999 3
866- 875 Track Variant NUMERIC 99 2

Specifically, you'd use fields 846, 847, 848 for the newest three speed figures, and 856/866, 857/867, 858/868 for the newest three speed/track variants, if you were going to substitute for DRF Formulator data.

Two more questions:

1) Are the Brisnet Speed and S/TVs integers? They don't have any decimal points, right?

2) Does one Brisnet file represent one HORSE, or all the horses in a RACE?

Thanks

[raybo]

Two more questions:

1) Are the Brisnet Speed and S/TVs integers? They don't have any decimal points, right?

2) Does one Brisnet file represent one HORSE, or all the horses in a RACE?

Thanks

1. Yes they are whole numbers
2. All races on the card

[TonyMLake]

This is superb. I will add Brisnet functionality to both the Windows and Android edition, and add a Brisnet import utility to the Windows version.

Gonna be a couple weeks before I can get to it though, probably.

Thanks for all your help!

[raybo]

This is superb. I will add Brisnet functionality to both the Windows and Android edition, and add a Brisnet import utility to the Windows version.

Gonna be a couple weeks before I can get to it though, probably.

Thanks for all your help!

If your code is going to look at file extensions, there are 2 for Brisnet files: .drf and .mcp, also JCapper has the same field numbers as Brisnet for the data your program requires, that file extension is: .jcp. Might as well go all the way if you're going to code for the industry standard data file of 1435 fields.

Also, does your program have the ability to navigate to local folders on one's device, so that files can be imported from any folder on the device? That is really important as people download and store their files all over. Does your program require the file to be zipped or unzipped before the import? In my program the files must be unzipped first.

[TonyMLake]

If your code is going to look at file extensions, there are 2 for Brisnet files: .drf and .mcp, also JCapper has the same field numbers as Brisnet for the data your program requires, that file extension is: .jcp. Might as well go all the way if you're going to code for the industry standard data file of 1435 fields.

Also, does your program have the ability to navigate to local folders on one's device, so that files can be imported from any folder on the device? That is really important as people download and store their files all over. Does your program require the file to be zipped or unzipped before the import? In my program the files must be unzipped first.

Hey Raybo, thanks for all your help. The administrator here thinks I'm "self promoting" by talking about it so much, so I guess I better not talk about it on here anymore. I may start a whole new board just to talk about handicapping softwares or something... all of them, not just mine.

If I ever did start charging for the app, I'd give a free license to everyone on this board. Don't see I would start charging for it since the Desktop version is distributed on probably 600 websites and I never charged for it before, but hey whatever.

In any case, I'll try to follow up with anyone who emails or pm's me - sorry about that folks!

[TexasDolly]

Hey Raybo, thanks for all your help. The administrator here thinks I'm "self promoting" by talking about it so much, so I guess I better not talk about it on here anymore. I may start a whole new board just to talk about handicapping softwares or something... all of them, not just mine.

If I ever did start charging for the app, I'd give a free license to everyone on this board. Don't see I would start charging for it since the Desktop version is distributed on probably 600 websites and I never charged for it before, but hey whatever.

In any case, I'll try to follow up with anyone who emails or pm's me - sorry about that folks!

Thanks,
TD

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey Raybo, thanks for all your help. The administrator here thinks I'm "self promoting" by talking about it so much, so I guess I better not talk about it on here anymore. I may start a whole new board just to talk about handicapping softwares or something... all of them, not just mine.

If I ever did start charging for the app, I'd give a free license to everyone on this board. Don't see I would start charging for it since the Desktop version is distributed on probably 600 websites and I never charged for it before, but hey whatever.

In any case, I'll try to follow up with anyone who emails or pm's me - sorry about that folks!Yeah, that's pretty much how our conversation went.

Hope you're more accurate in your app development then you are in conveying the gist of an online conversation.

I never said you couldn't respond to questions about your app.

[PaceAdvantage]

I may start a whole new board just to talk about handicapping softwares or something... all of them, not just mine. Already exists:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=3&page=1&pp=25&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

[PaceAdvantage]

For the record, this was exactly what I wrote to TonyMLake privately:

Technically, you are selling something (the .99 add-on), so technically, one of my paying advertisers is likely to bitch and moan that you are getting to advertise your app for free while they have to pay for a similar privilege.

Thanks for your cooperation in advanceCurious if others think I was way out of line sending this message to him. I welcome all comments.

[Tom]

Totally fair.

[kingfin66]

Technically, there is a $.99 cent add on that people can opt to buy. If TonyMLake sold 1,000 of those (unlikely) total, he would earn a whopping $1,000. He is likely to have lots of people download his app after seeing it on PA. How many I cannot estimate. The percentage of those people who will buy the $0.99 app is not likely to be high. Conversion rates are pretty small and when it comes to apps, people like FREE.

TonyMLake has responded to questions about the app, and has even committed to changing it to allow users to import BRIS files. All still for free.

The message you posted looks to be a small part of a much larger conversation and could easily be taken out of context. Not that you would ever do that. If you are going to accuse him of misrepresenting your online conversation, you post much more than the small paragraph.

That would be more fair in my opinion.

[JimG]

For the record, this was exactly what I wrote to TonyMLake privately:

Curious if others think I was way out of line sending this message to him. I welcome all comments.

Hi PA,

No you were not out of line. However, I have enjoyed reading about something new. From what I can tell after looking at, downloading, and using the product, the windows software version is entirely free. It appears the 99 cents is only charged to android users as a one time charge for the convenience of using a certain algorithm on non-computer devices.

Had Tony not posted, I would not have known about the product. Therefore, I am glad he posted. But I fully understand the need to protect advertisers who help pay the bills.

Personally, I think a one time mention of a product by a vendor and then answering questions, either privately or publicly in one thread would be the way to go in the future. Numerous threads hawking software products should be reserved for the few vendors that actually pay for advertising.

This is the best place on the internet to learn about new and upgraded handicapping software. I hope it stays that way.

Jim

[TonyMLake]

Hey folks, I take responsibility for the offending posts.

I don't think the admin is out of line by allowing whatever the admin wants on the board, period. To me, the ongoing discussion seemed completely within the context of what was being discussed so I thought it was okay, but it's not my call and I don't have a problem with that.

I've asked the admin to delete the offending posts, and I hope that happens. In the meantime, I'm extremely grateful to all of you who emailed me or PM'd me. I'm definitely going to try to follow up and will make the effort I can to keep you discretely informed about the requested improvements.

Thanks everybody!

[Exotic1]

For the record, this was exactly what I wrote to TonyMLake privately:

Curious if others think I was way out of line sending this message to him. I welcome all comments.

Absolutely fair.

[PaceAdvantage]

Technically, there is a $.99 cent add on that people can opt to buy. If TonyMLake sold 1,000 of those (unlikely) total, he would earn a whopping $1,000. He is likely to have lots of people download his app after seeing it on PA. How many I cannot estimate. The percentage of those people who will buy the $0.99 app is not likely to be high. Conversion rates are pretty small and when it comes to apps, people like FREE.

TonyMLake has responded to questions about the app, and has even committed to changing it to allow users to import BRIS files. All still for free.

The message you posted looks to be a small part of a much larger conversation and could easily be taken out of context. Not that you would ever do that. If you are going to accuse him of misrepresenting your online conversation, you post much more than the small paragraph.

That would be more fair in my opinion.That was the FULL TEXT of the first PM I sent him. I also told him in a subsequent PM that deleting his posts was not necessary, as he wasn't fully aware (obviously, despite it being explicitly stated in the terms presented when you register here), and I am not that much of a dick, even though he suggested that I delete his posts.

In any event, I'm just wondering what others think of the INITIAL private message I sent him, which obviously set the tone for everything that follows.

I am not hiding anything. It is my opinion that he is overreacting. That seems to happen a lot around here.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

That was the FULL TEXT of the first PM I sent him. I also told him in a subsequent PM that deleting his posts was not necessary, as he wasn't fully aware (obviously, despite it being explicitly stated in the terms presented when you register here), and I am not that much of a dick, even though he suggested that I delete his posts.

In any event, I'm just wondering what others think of the INITIAL private message I sent him, which obviously set the tone for everything that follows.

I am not hiding anything. It is my opinion that he is overreacting. That seems to happen a lot around here.

If anything PA, you're being easy on the guy. From his initial unsolicited post, Tony didn't identify or provide a link to his app, but one didn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to find it. I believe the TOS were at least in the back of his mind. Maybe he got caught up in some of the excitement of subsequent posts and ideas for improvement, since what developer doesn't like seeing their code used successfully?

For those of us who are "regular" users of this site, we get an AWESOME and incredibly neutral resource to learn more about all aspects of the sport. And at the right price. Sometimes we may forget that the business model that's used to pay the bills does come with some rules the "vendors" need to follow, so we need to keep those boundaries in mind when asking questions about specific products.

The rest of the time, when discussing handicapping in general terms, we've got a lot of latitude.... :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, not exactly. I ENCOURAGE people to ask about or comment on any commercial product they wish to discuss...provided they are not directly connected to the business in any way. Of course, this isn't always easy to prove or disprove...but I have never discouraged nor do I want to discourage people from discussing commercial products.

[gregrph]

That was the FULL TEXT of the first PM I sent him. I also told him in a subsequent PM that deleting his posts was not necessary, as he wasn't fully aware (obviously, despite it being explicitly stated in the terms presented when you register here), and I am not that much of a dick, even though he suggested that I delete his posts.

In any event, I'm just wondering what others think of the INITIAL private message I sent him, which obviously set the tone for everything that follows.

I am not hiding anything. It is my opinion that he is overreacting. That seems to happen a lot around here.

I've read the whole thread. I don't think you were wrong but in Tony's defense, he did not post the name or link of his software, another user did initially. He also stated that he didn't think that he should mention it and that anyone who wanted it should pm him. He did mention the one time $0.99 add on charge for a module but has never said what that module was and stated that most users would never use it. I am not reading or getting a feeling of animosity between you and Tony and he seems that he wants to completely abide by your rules and does not want to cause any problems here. I also do not think that you came off heavy-handed towards him at all. You just mentioned to him that it might become an issue for you if he keeps on promoting his software. I don't get the feeling that any of your advertisers have complained (nor would I expect or even want to know).

[PaceAdvantage]

This whole thing was blown out of proportion. My initial PM was nothing but a friendly reminder. We'll just leave it at that and move on...thanks for the comments...

[kingfin66]

and I am not that much of a dick
Totally agree with this! :ThmbUp: Also, thanks for the clarification. Best to move on...

[TonyMLake]

Hi all, per previous PM with Pace, one small update:

After a number of requests, the software can now import Formulator, Brisnet Single Data PP's, Brisnet Multicap, and JCapper files.

This is not a commercial product, it's just my little program I wrote for a friend and myself. It doesn't require any commercial software or purchase at all. If anyone wants a copy it's 100% free to download and use. If anyone has any questions or feature requests, I do try to follow up, though -so just pm or email me.

Thanks again!

Tony

[TexasDolly]

Hi Tony,
Just downloaded the new version and it locked my machine up tight. All screens are frozen and mouse as well . No ransom messages or anything. Any thoughts ?
TD

[TexasDolly]

I got it unlocked so I will pursue using it . I have no idea what happened.
TD

[TonyMLake]

Hmm... I'd need a little more information Texas. Tell me what system you're on, what specifically occurred, is it working now, etc. I already emailed you back.

[TexasDolly]

Hi Tony,
Just downloaded the new version and it locked my machine up tight. All screens are frozen and mouse as well . No ransom messages or anything. Any thoughts ?
TD

Sorry for any misunderstanding this post might have caused for TonyMLake. I tested it more completely and didn't have any problems. It worked as he said it would. I tested it on a few imported files.
My apologies for the implication.
TD

[TonyMLake]

Hey, thanks for that Texas. Glad everything's sorted out. Good luck with your handicapping!

[Flysofree]

Tony, I had to do a System Restore after downloading your program. My computer slowed to a crawl after finally getting your software unzipped..I didn't know initially it required to be unzipped. It's been deleted.. If you decide to release a version with built in zip, let us know.. I'm not computer literate. Windows 7 here.

[TonyMLake]

Hi Flysofree,

I'm sorry to hear that you had some problems.

Zip files are a common way of making files smaller on Windows and other operating systems. Many people prefer zip files, but some people don't.

I'm not sure why you didn't see the links to the .exe file, but there are links to the .exe file on the same page that the zip file is on.

If you choose to re-install the software, you may want to get help from someone you trust who can guide you through getting it set up - or just PM me.

Thanks.

[green80]

We may need to ask this question. If you are using a black box type program, what win percentage does it have and what it the average win mutual?

[TonyMLake]

Hi Green80,

As I said in my original post, the way I knew I was doing well is that I haven't put any money in my account for several years and I ain't broke. I listed my exact race conditions to everyone who asked, and I think I posted it here.

Although the app is as "black box" as possible, the app does offer customizable algorithms, and your race conditions might be different than mine, so your mileage might vary. However, I did name the algorithm I use... and it's included in the app - and also I stated exactly which bets I usually make - therefore, you should be able to recreate my exact conditions and generate similar picks.

The posts that caught my attention were about black box software, and software that the users wrote themselves, so I mentioned mine.

It's not that I don't understand or don't care about statistics... indeed I used to teach them at the college level... but as a casual bettor I just found what was working for me and haven't put all the time in the world into it because I work a lot. Since it's a free app and doesn't even require an installer, you're welcome to try it out and run those numbers yourself, though. I have nothing to hide. I'm neither selling it nor touting it, just willing to share something whose conditions matched those mentioned in the thread. There are a good number of users who enjoy being able to use the app on their desktop and take it to the track on their mobile device, so, it's working for us.

I'm not completely adverse to a BLACKBOX SOFTWARE handicapping competition, though - I think that'd be fun, as long as the ground rules were set out in advance. My FREE software can pick at least as effectively as any handicapping software out there given sufficient sample size. NOTE THAT I SAID SOFTWARE. If we have a contest, it will be between competing software applications and no human intervention or interpretations can take place other than those rules set up in advance. For our purposes, we'd be having a "black box" competition.

I can't do it for a couple months though, as I rarely get enough hours free to pay attention on my current assignment... but... if anyone would enjoy that as much as me, lets do it over in the "picks" forum... We can set up the ground rules privately or, in a separate thread here in "Software" if that's appropriate to the admin and users / interested parties. In fact, I will post some proposed ground rules here in a few minutes.

This thread is several weeks old now, so, let's close this one out. If anyone has anything to say about the app that they can't PM me or email me for, perhaps start a new thread. This one was a general one about "black box software" and "software users wrote for themselves". It was never meant to be about the app I offered to share, but things seemed to have spun a little out of control.