Thoroughbreds vs. Todays Modern Athletes

[cj's dad]

If one accepts the premise that Thoroughbreds are in fact athletes, then why is it that they are, as a whole, the only group that has not improved over time?

All other sports athletes are stronger, bigger, running faster, jumping higher, hitting a baseball farther, etc...

My thought is that it is the inbreeding.

[Stillriledup]

Great question.

Beyer said that Secretariat might have had a Beyer fig of about 130 in the Belmont, and we haven't seen horses come close to that these days, in fact, we rarely see 120s anymore, 115 seems to be the "gold standard" so from that alone, horses are getting slower.....you know, if you believe these numbers.

[BettinBilly]

Excellent question, OP.

I am a Race Director in an Endurance Olympic Sport. I deal with Human Athletes and have for 30 years. I have seen decent improvement. Not amazing, but yes, decent improvement. I attribute a lot to training advances by technology, and "legal" supplements that may or may not help increase VO2 Max and help replenish Electrolytes. All you have to do is walk in to a GNC and you see hundreds of supplements for increasing endurance, strength, and muscle mass. Many hard core athletes dive into these, and even if they are a placebo, they seem to work in part to help an athlete believe he or she is better, faster and stronger. Diet and Exercise have been honed to a fine science as well, and humans are living and eating better (in athletic circles) than they ever have. They have scientific understanding of consumption of carbs vs protein and when and how to hydrate, with what, and with what quantity. Horses do not have this advantage, and have to rely on the Trainer and Grooms to take care of them and give them the best diet and training they can with what is known and available. The horse does not know he is being given better oats, or top quality feed that should help him. He does not know that Blinkers may help him. If he could talk and think about it, there may be a bump in speed and endurance.

Also, my "guess" is that your question drills down to a difference in natural ability VS generation improvement over time. Thoroughbreds were always bred for speed. As far back as records go, there has always been at least ONE standout horse that dazzled with his performance in each generation. Humans started much lower on the performance scale, and there was no where to go but up. Thoroughbreds may have plateaued in performance, but will spike from time to time if the breeding gets spot on. Human athletes are still looking to improve with the help of science. There is probably little more that can be done with training and LEGAL supplements/feed that will aid the horses. And maybe you are right on the breeding. If you are breeding as fast as you can for production of speed, sometimes I would think that it backfires. I'm guessing here as I'm not a horseman. We need someone whom breeds horses to honestly answer that.

Looking forward to the knowledgeable guys chiming in on this one.

[Sinner369]

Even compared to their equine counterparts..........harness horses........the modern thoroughbred looks like..........sisters of the poor.

The harness horses are getting faster every year and they can race once a week and in all kinds of weather (winter, fall, spring). The modern thoroughbreds..........you lucky if they race once every 3 weeks.

[PhantomOnTour]

DURABILITY is the issue for me, and man & beast aren't as durable as they used to be....why?

DRUGS...all thoroughbreds in North America are drug addicts that have relied on them virtually since birth.
Many humans are now taking powerful prescription drugs early in their lives, and will continue on a pill regimen for their entire life; just like the race horse.

But over in Europe we've seen Frankel and Sea The Stars recently, who rank among the fastest runners in the history of European racing...wonder why.

[burnsy]

Humans get bigger and stronger, better diets, training methods, medical care and evolution. Many men are bigger than their father. For horses and I believe the breeding and drug affects should be thoroughly studied. The drugs should be studied across the board, man and beast. I'm not that knowledgeable about genetics or biology and pharmacology but I'm a pretty good observer. Experts have to hash out what's going on with the horses.

The common thread between animals and humans is the behavior of our society. I can't prove it but I think most athletes are becoming softer. Humans may be bigger and stronger but they get hurt often just like their equine counter parts. Just look at pitchers in baseball, hurt all the time and they don't pitch much more than 100 pitches. When I was a kid, relief pitching was just becoming an art. Guys used to pitch 9 innings like it was nothing. Everyone specializes in what they do and we live so much easier lives than our predecessors. Our ancestors would laugh at all the rules and regulations we have now. Which are good for safety and health. The horse trainers from those days would question the "worthiness" of a horse that can't run more than once a month. We have evolved, bigger, faster and stronger but a little of that "grit" has vanished. Kind of a healthy trade off but a different mentality. Back then, everyone was like a hockey player. Your teeth get knocked out....you scoop them up and get back out there. I still remember when some of them didn't even where helmets. Look at the changes in the NFL. Guys used to retire and be crippled for life because they never even thought about the danger. They were the Flintstones.......we are becoming the Jetsons.

[classhandicapper]

Great question.

Beyer said that Secretariat might have had a Beyer fig of about 130 in the Belmont, and we haven't seen horses come close to that these days, in fact, we rarely see 120s anymore, 115 seems to be the "gold standard" so from that alone, horses are getting slower.....you know, if you believe these numbers.

I've given this issue a lot of thought. It's complicated. But here's what I think so far.

Thorograph has generally had top horses getting faster, but they seem to have leveled off a bit in recent years.

Ragozin had top horses fairly stable, then there was period where they seemed to be getting faster, now they seem to have dropped back a bit again.

Beyer had top horses fairly stable, then they started to decline very slowly, then they dropped like a rock over the last 5 years or so.

It appears there must be some personal biases being built into the figure making process otherwise they would as least all agree on the general direction. So I have concluded it's not is a very good idea to compare horses from different eras using speed figures.

I will add that it appears that the trend for all them over the last 5 years or so has been for the figures to either get slower or flatten out instead of accelerating like they were. That coincides with steroids being banned. Maybe that's the reason. I do not know for sure.

When I look at Beyer figures for the last 5+ years (starting in 2009), I will add between 4-6 points to the figures of high level stakes horses when comparing them to horses from before that period. I'm not sure that is correct or even perfectly accurate, but I have the data to support the theory and idea.

[Maximillion]

Another interesting thing......you could make the argument that 5 of the greatest thoroughbreds to walk the earth ran in a 7 year period in the 70s.

I mean,why the 70s?

[BettinBilly]

Another interesting thing......you could make the argument that 5 of the greatest thoroughbreds to walk the earth ran in a 7 year period in the 70s.

I mean,why the 70s?

Cold War and the Russians I suppose.

All kidding aside, that is amazing and I've thought about that. At the time Secretariat ran, my father sat me down and made me watch history being made. He kept saying, "This horse is one in a million... maybe a billion. You need to watch and remember you saw this happen."

At the time I thought, "Eh, in another decade some horse will blow his record run away." Um.... Nope. :)

[Robert Goren]

Selective breeding doesn't work in the long run and the number of TB is dropping.

[kinznk]

Just look at pitchers in baseball, hurt all the time and they don't pitch much more than 100 pitches. When I was a kid, relief pitching was just becoming an art. Guys used to pitch 9 innings like it was nothing.

I read somewhere that people estimated Walter Johnson threw about 86mph and he threw gas for his day. Most players of yesteryear would crap their pants if they had to face today's pitchers on a day in day out basis. 80% of the starters throw 90+. If horses are bred for speed they are just like pitchers, go out and give it all you have for 6 furlongs or innings. More stress on the arms more stress on the body. To me Euro racing seems to be more loping along and getting into position for mad dash at the end, where US races seem to be go breakneck and hang on.

[TJDave]

If one accepts the premise that Thoroughbreds are in fact athletes, then why is it that they are, as a whole, the only group that has not improved over time?

Because horses can't train themselves.

[burnsy]

I read somewhere that people estimated Walter Johnson threw about 86mph and he threw gas for his day. Most players of yesteryear would crap their pants if they had to face today's pitchers on a day in day out basis. 80% of the starters throw 90+. If horses are bred for speed they are just like pitchers, go out and give it all you have for 6 furlongs or innings. More stress on the arms more stress on the body. To me Euro racing seems to be more loping along and getting into position for mad dash at the end, where US races seem to be go breakneck and hang on.

You're right. I think the stress of throwing harder because your bigger and stronger contributes to injuries. We're Americans, we try to do everything breakneck or fast. I think their maybe a "burn out" affect because careers are shortened.

[Mr_Ed]

Jimmy The Greek took this answer to his grave......................thankfully.

[Valuist]

If one accepts the premise that Thoroughbreds are in fact athletes, then why is it that they are, as a whole, the only group that has not improved over time?

All other sports athletes are stronger, bigger, running faster, jumping higher, hitting a baseball farther, etc...

My thought is that it is the inbreeding.

What about pitchers? They clearly aren't as durable as they used to be. Used to have 4 man rotations, several guys would throw over 250 innings a year. Many complete games. Now? A 200 inning guy is considered an iron man.

[cj's dad]

What about pitchers? They clearly aren't as durable as they used to be. Used to have 4 man rotations, several guys would throw over 250 innings a year. Many complete games. Now? A 200 inning guy is considered an iron man.

Starts in little league. Can't throw but so many pitches you know. Pitchers have digressed since the 70-80's due to pampering.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

A lot of human athletes had much greater room for improvement as some human athletes would have been amateurs or only semi pro going back to the 1970s and 1980s or earlier. They would have worked a job while playing their sport. These days the same athlete would train all day and all week and be fully professional

I imagine most racehorses in the last 100 years would have been fully professional racehorses who trained all the time to race. Probably back in the 1800s racehorses would do other activities apart from racing. But I would guess the racehorse turned professional long before most human athletes did

Anyways it will vary from sport to sport. This website http://www.sportsscientists.com/ has articles during the Tour de France stating that times in the major climbs have slowed down back to 1980s times in some of the recent tours

Inbreeding and drugs are obvious issues for racehorses that might slow them down or weaken them