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Billnewman
06-03-2014, 01:11 AM
I've never researched the effect wind has on racing. For one there isn't much data on it. But this year i'm attempting to make my own variants for Fingerlakes(otherwise known as Chrisenglehart downs). After the first 25 days i'm starting to wonder if it's an exercise of futility, with the short fields and $2.80 win mutuels. But anyhow the main way i check the wind is by looking at the flag in the replays. FL's straightaways run west to east with the prevailing winds mainly a tailwind down the back stretch going to a headwind down the lane. At 6f they run straight for maybe 1400' another 1000' or so down the stretch which leaves 2 furlongs of turn. I can't get my head around how the wind effects the variant. At a mile does it cancel itself out like A+B=B+A. And the sprints are always a different variant from the routes. Over the years i've come to the conclusion that when there is a strong tailwind down the backstretch at FL it favors the closers. Those early runners have it easy the first 3f then hit a wall at the top of the lane and stop. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

Greyfox
06-03-2014, 01:37 AM
I've never researched the effect wind has on racing. For one there isn't much data on it. But this year i'm attempting to make my own variants for Fingerlakes(otherwise known as Chrisenglehart downs). After the first 25 days i'm starting to wonder if it's an exercise of futility, with the short fields and $2.80 win mutuels. But anyhow the main way i check the wind is by looking at the flag in the replays. FL's straightaways run west to east with the prevailing winds mainly a tailwind down the back stretch going to a headwind down the lane. At 6f they run straight for maybe 1400' another 1000' or so down the stretch which leaves 2 furlongs of turn. I can't get my head around how the wind effects the variant. At a mile does it cancel itself out like A+B=B+A. And the sprints are always a different variant from the routes. Over the years i've come to the conclusion that when there is a strong tailwind down the backstretch at FL it favors the closers. Those early runners have it easy the first 3f then hit a wall at the top of the lane and stop. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

Good question. :ThmbUp:
Personally, with my own utilization of Past Performances, I do NOt take wind into account...yet I seem to fumble by and do okay at the tracks I play..
(Perhaps I'd do better if wind allowance was taken into consideration.
At Fingerlakes, I'd be doubtful if wind was much of a a factor.
Ask Tom.)

Some_One
06-03-2014, 01:47 AM
Not worth your time, can't see it giving you any significant advantage worth the time investment.

Stillriledup
06-03-2014, 03:52 AM
Pandy can talk about this wind effect at Meadowlands harness, i think he wrote an article about it at one point.

Horseplayersbet.com
06-03-2014, 09:50 AM
When it comes to track bias, I believe wind plays a factor, especially when the wind is over 15 MPH. When the wind is in the horse's face in the stretch, you'll find more often than not, the track favoring early speed. The opposite is true when the wind is on the horse's back in the stretch.
It is hard to pass horses when facing a moderate to strong wind, and that is why early speed prevails when wind is hitting horses in the face in the stretch.
As for the opposite situation, a horse on the lead in the backstretch facing a wind might be using more energy than horses in the pack, especially when you also consider drafting. Fresh horses in the stretch have an advantage when the wind is at a horse's back in the stretch.
Wind speed is available for quarter horse races. I've always contended that it should be available for TB and harness races as well.

Tom
06-03-2014, 10:16 AM
I've spent many an afternoon sitting that FL wind.
It can be pretty strong at times, with nothing around to block it.

Stillriledup
06-03-2014, 04:52 PM
Seems like the wind in Toronto at Woodbine is really a huge factor, you see those flags whipping like nobody's business, its the "windiest" track i've seen from a watching the flags standpoint.

DJofSD
06-03-2014, 05:58 PM
At a mile does it cancel itself out like A+B=B+A. And the sprints are always a different variant from the routes. Over the years i've come to the conclusion that when there is a strong tailwind down the backstretch at FL it favors the closers. Those early runners have it easy the first 3f then hit a wall at the top of the lane and stop. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
If how the wind affects horses is similar to how wind affects a golf ball in flight, no, you can not assume it cancels out.

In golf, when the ball is into the wind, the hurt is greater than the help when travel with the wind.

And then remember, too, that horses on the lead are experiencing the full brunt of the wind when running into it while those in the pack do not. This is the same as the touring rider like in the Tour de France.

fasteddied
06-03-2014, 06:28 PM
Take this for what its worth, I personally LOVE the wind when I get a right to left looking at the flag at Philly and Delaware park, it is mostly a winter advantage that I have been loading up on for 20+ years espically at Philly going 6 or 7 panels. This is what I look at, it has to be over 15mph and the stronger the wind the better it works. GATE TO WIRE ALL DAY LONG ( I have no stats for you only cash results).
If the wind is blowing wrong-left to right stopping the speed headed up the bachstretrch TOSS the form in the trash because there will be no rhyme or reason to the results that day. If the flagpole is pumping right to left its a beautiful thing and you can bang speed exactas over and over all day long my man. I dont post too much on here but take the wind to the bank at Philly and Delaware also. Good luck---you wont need it though. d:)

cmp92
06-03-2014, 06:52 PM
Seems like the wind in Toronto at Woodbine is really a huge factor, you see those flags whipping like nobody's business, its the "windiest" track i've seen from a watching the flags standpoint.
Watching Woodbine harness this winter, the winds could take a brutal toll on the field.

Dark Horse
06-03-2014, 07:03 PM
My mentor told me that strong wind can be a huge factor. We saw it in the Derby, by the way. I have never kept records for wind, outside of football and baseball, but it certainly couldn't hurt. Only by measuring these things precisely can we (hope to) find a sweet spot.

Sea Biscuit
06-04-2014, 08:34 PM
Seems like the wind in Toronto at Woodbine is really a huge factor, you see those flags whipping like nobody's business, its the "windiest" track i've seen from a watching the flags standpoint.

I am talking strictly harness here.

Wind currents had a major say in the outcome of races this past winter at the Woodbine track. It shattered my age old belief the track was biased against the closers. From one day to the next you could never tell in advance how the track would be playing out on any particular night. On many days front runners who figured to win the race would come to a complete stop at the 7/8 pole. It came to a point that I could no longer give out my picks in advance with any bit of confidence because of this fact. I am basically a speed handicapper and calculate track variants on a daily basis. I rely on them heavily to make my selections. On some days my TRs would be 2 seconds off on the slower side even though it was a fast track on paper. Those were the days when the closers would out kicked the front runners. It wasn't just the wind that played havoc with the speed but also the harsh winter conditions we had this last season. Temperatures would plummet 10 to 15 degrees within hours.

To counter this I stopped betting the first 3 or 4 races and just watched how the track was playing that particular night and try and form an opinion how the track was behaving and bet accordingly. Sometimes it would take more than 3 or 4 races to form a correct opinion. If I found that the track was favoring the closers, I threw out my special in the sixth race Frontend Hanover which was my initial pick and bet a strong closer in the race if I had any. If not I would just sit and watch the race. Difficult to throw out your own pick and bet another horse? You betcha.

I learned to do this about six months ago after reading an article by handicapper Steve M. One of the best articles I have read in the last 15/20 years. I wish I had read this article when it was written.

Read this article as if your life depends on it and find out about the red blinking sign on top of the tote board which says:

WARNING: FRONT END DEAD TONIGHT

Here is the link to the article I spoke about

http://www.kimstarr.org/corner/biasrecognize.html


Good luck.

Sea Biscuit
06-04-2014, 09:14 PM
Sometimes the wind is blowing 25/30 kph for the first 5 races and then suddenly the wind dies in the rest the races. Days like these are a speed handicappers nightmare come true. Try calculating a variant for a day like this.

I have been writing to WEG to have a wind meter installed at the track so that we know exactly what the wind conditions were before the race.

Its like talking to a wall as far is WEG is concerned.

Cratos
06-04-2014, 09:46 PM
If how the wind affects horses is similar to how wind affects a golf ball in flight, no, you can not assume it cancels out.

In golf, when the ball is into the wind, the hurt is greater than the help when travel with the wind.

And then remember, too, that horses on the lead are experiencing the full brunt of the wind when running into it while those in the pack do not. This is the same as the touring rider like in the Tour de France.

Comparing a racehorse running over a surface versus a golf ball in flight is like comparing apples and oranges; they are both fruits, but taste very different.

A golf ball in flight is affected by aerial winds which have a higher velocity than surface winds which affect the racehorse. The reason for this is obstructions on the surface and surface friction; aerial wind velocity is typically measured at 10 meters above the surface.

Tom
06-04-2014, 09:55 PM
And what if the golf ball is 15 meters high? :D

pandy
06-04-2014, 10:04 PM
Sometimes the wind is blowing 25/30 kph for the first 5 races and then suddenly the wind dies in the rest the races. Days like these are a speed handicappers nightmare come true. Try calculating a variant for a day like this.

I have been writing to WEG to have a wind meter installed at the track so that we know exactly what the wind conditions were before the race.

Its like talking to a wall as far is WEG is concerned.

It's a great idea. The tracks that have a lot of wind don't give handicappers enough info. Some tracks don't even have flags. I wrote about this recently. It wouldn't be tough difficult to have a wind meter. The tracks don't seem to understand that if you want people to bet money, give them as much information as possible so they can feel more confident in wagering.

Sea Biscuit
06-05-2014, 02:20 AM
It's a great idea. The tracks that have a lot of wind don't give handicappers enough info. Some tracks don't even have flags. I wrote about this recently. It wouldn't be tough difficult to have a wind meter. The tracks don't seem to understand that if you want people to bet money, give them as much information as possible so they can feel more confident in wagering.

One the one rare occasion that I got a reply back from WEG, they suggested to look at the flags to determine wind speed.:bang:

DJofSD
06-05-2014, 08:01 AM
Comparing a racehorse running over a surface versus a golf ball in flight is like comparing apples and oranges; they are both fruits, but taste very different.

A golf ball in flight is affected by aerial winds which have a higher velocity than surface winds which affect the racehorse. The reason for this is obstructions on the surface and surface friction; aerial wind velocity is typically measured at 10 meters above the surface.
Wind is wind is wind.

Using physics, the effect of it on either the ball or the horse can be viewed as a force. Force is a vector which is composed of two components: magnitude and direction. There is nothing in the equation for how far above the ground is the force.

Dark Horse
06-05-2014, 10:04 AM
It would be easy for horse racing to have a website such as this one for MLB:

http://www.baseball-weather.com/

Live wind data.

Or we could ask the above site to add tracks. You can get the tracks direction and layout pretty easy these days with google maps, so, assuming they have the wind for all of the US and Canada, it would just be a matter of fitting those into their existing wind data.

cmp92
06-05-2014, 01:22 PM
I am talking strictly harness here.

Wind currents had a major say in the outcome of races this past winter at the Woodbine track. It shattered my age old belief the track was biased against the closers. From one day to the next you could never tell in advance how the track would be playing out on any particular night. On many days front runners who figured to win the race would come to a complete stop at the 7/8 pole. It came to a point that I could no longer give out my picks in advance with any bit of confidence because of this fact. I am basically a speed handicapper and calculate track variants on a daily basis. I rely on them heavily to make my selections. On some days my TRs would be 2 seconds off on the slower side even though it was a fast track on paper. Those were the days when the closers would out kicked the front runners. It wasn't just the wind that played havoc with the speed but also the harsh winter conditions we had this last season. Temperatures would plummet 10 to 15 degrees within hours.

To counter this I stopped betting the first 3 or 4 races and just watched how the track was playing that particular night and try and form an opinion how the track was behaving and bet accordingly. Sometimes it would take more than 3 or 4 races to form a correct opinion. If I found that the track was favoring the closers, I threw out my special in the sixth race Frontend Hanover which was my initial pick and bet a strong closer in the race if I had any. If not I would just sit and watch the race. Difficult to throw out your own pick and bet another horse? You betcha.

I learned to do this about six months ago after reading an article by handicapper Steve M. One of the best articles I have read in the last 15/20 years. I wish I had read this article when it was written.

Read this article as if your life depends on it and find out about the red blinking sign on top of the tote board which says:

WARNING: FRONT END DEAD TONIGHT

Here is the link to the article I spoke about

http://www.kimstarr.org/corner/biasrecognize.html


Good luck.
Very good points. I played Woodbine Harness quite a bit this winter and some nights were extremely frustrating with the weather.

DJofSD
06-05-2014, 09:50 PM
Comparing a racehorse running over a surface versus a golf ball in flight is like comparing apples and oranges; they are both fruits, but taste very different.

A golf ball in flight is affected by aerial winds which have a higher velocity than surface winds which affect the racehorse. The reason for this is obstructions on the surface and surface friction; aerial wind velocity is typically measured at 10 meters above the surface.
Cratos, it appears you had started a rather terse response. That's OK, I'm not taking any of this personally.

Do you have a background in fluid engineering or something similar?