Re: Religious thread. Is Man inherently Evil?

[hcap]

Choices? Opinions

[Steve 'StatMan']

and you didn't even make this a private poll.

[thaskalos]

Man is not "evil". He is inherently imperfect...and therefore prone to error.

[sammy the sage]

there are GOOD men and EVIL men...it is what it is...

...a very powerful read about the LAST major genocide whilst the UN stood by...


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/05/29/magazine/srebrenica-life-in-the-valley-of-death.html?_r=0

[hcap]

My main reason for posting this poll was, being a parent and watching my son grow from infant to adult man, often surrounded by pets and watching their loving trusting relationship, was to say the least amazing and 180 degrees contrary to man being born a "sinner"

In observing my son's earliest interactions with the world around him, I found the religious concept of children born "sinners" very hard to swallow.

That's why I offered the choice of parent or non-parent

[HUSKER55]

I voted all men are not sinners. Didn't want to risk hurting your feelings hcap. :D

[Tom]

Democrat babies are born evil.
The ones that make it out, that is.

[hcap]

I voted all men are not sinners. Didn't want to risk hurting your feelings hcap. :DNo matter my feelings your own is what counts. But I agree :jump:

[hcap]

Democrat babies are born evil.
The ones that make it out, that is.
Very thoughtful of you Tom.
But this is not political


http://www.fundacionmona.org/mm/image/La%20Fundacion/fundacion%201.jpg


Try to control yourself :lol:

[boxcar]

Hey, you forgot an option (a mere oversight, I'm sure) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: -- God created Man Good and with the capacity for self-determination, so Man as a free moral agent chose to sin; consequently all men inherit Adam's sin nature. So, yes, all men are inherently evil by nature.

Iron clad proof in the real world: No one ever has to teach their kids Wrong from Right. Never!

Boxcar

[tucker6]

God created Man Good and with the capacity for self-determination, so Man as a free moral agent chose to sin; consequently all men inherit Adam's sin nature. So, yes, all men are inherently evil by nature.

so let me get this straight. God gave us self-determination, but because one sinned, the rest of us have no self determination. Is that correct?? :rolleyes:

He gave up on the rest of us that quickly!! You realize how stupid that sounds?

[hcap]

He gave up on the rest of us that quickly!! You realize how stupid that sounds?Let me add.....
God created Man Good and with the capacity for self-determination, so Man as a free moral agent chose to sin; consequently all men inherit Adam's sin nature. So, yes, all men are inherently evil by nature.

So you would like me to redo the poll with this option ?

"Adam was the only man created non-evil. Everyone else, however inherited his mistake, and therefore all men are evil now and sincer Adam. Adam was the only human not evil "


In other words in numbers?

%99.999999999999999999999999 of men who ever existed are evil :lol:

So for all practical purposes you should have voted
"All human beings are sinners."

Or/and either option 1 or 2. What stopped you?

.000000000000000000000000000001 percent?

Btw, you can vote for more than one option

[boxcar]

so let me get this straight. God gave us self-determination, but because one sinned, the rest of us have no self determination. Is that correct?? :rolleyes:

He gave up on the rest of us that quickly!! You realize how stupid that sounds?

No, it's not correct. I never said Adam's progeny didn't have the same capacity as he did. Man is still a free moral agent who is free to choose and act within the restraints of his nature. But man's nature now is as immutable as God's! Just as God cannot sin, neither can Man not sin.

Boxcar

[tucker6]

No, it's not correct. I never said Adam's progeny didn't have the same capacity as he did. Man is still a free moral agent who is free to choose and act within the restraints of his nature. But man's nature now is as immutable as God's! Just as God cannot sin, neither can Man not sin.

Boxcar
didn't God sin when he made man a sinner?

[Clocker]

Clean up on Aisle Three. The religious thread is overflowing.

[tucker6]

No, it's not correct. I never said Adam's progeny didn't have the same capacity as he did. Man is still a free moral agent who is free to choose and act within the restraints of his nature. But man's nature now is as immutable as God's! Just as God cannot sin, neither can Man not sin.

Boxcar
That isn't what you said. You said that because Adam sinned, all men who follow are sinners. Isn't that what you said? You now go on to say that man's nature (because of Adam) is immutable and sin-based, yet you also state that all of us have self determination. You don't see the dichotomy in those two statements? If we are immutably sinners, how can we have self choice on the issue? And why would God set up the game so entirely rigged like that?

[Light]

Jesus said ""Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?"

In other words we are creators. Certainly of our own world. And we choose to be good or evil. It is not inherent.

[Robert Goren]

Humans are not born in sin, but everyone, but Christ, so far has yielded to temptation. There are instruments of the Devil that parade as humans that are pure evil. They are born that way. I do not pretend to know how the Devil does that, but I have seen his agents in action at a very young age. The Devil and/or his agents has gotten some humans commit some very evil actions.

[boxcar]

didn't God sin when he made man a sinner?

But God didn't make man a sinner. God made man good. What don't you understand about self-determination? God gave man the capacity to make moral choices. What would be your alternative to free moral agency? To giving man the capacity to voluntarily choose? Do you have a better alternative?

Boxcar

[tucker6]

Humans are not born in sin, but everyone, but Christ, so far has yielded to temptation.
How do you know this to be true? So a two year old has sinned through temptation? How? When?

Also, define temptation?

[boxcar]

Jesus said ""Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?"

In other words we are creators. Certainly of our own world. And we choose to be good or evil. It is not inherent.

That's not what the text means. If it did, we have a huge contradiction in scripture, since the same bible (and Jesus for that matter!) says that there is only one God.

Boxcar

[tucker6]

But God didn't make man a sinner.
sure he did. In your own words you stated that God created man. Therefore, the sin in man was with him from the beginning, and it came from God. God just gave each man a choice as to whether to express it, i.e. self determination. Now if you're going to try and tell me that the devil did man in, then you're also saying that the devil is more powerful than God in that God can't fix what the devil has done to his own creation. You see how impotent that makes God appear? He's either a screw-up who can't make things go right the first time or he's a second class citizen to the devil. You figure it out.

[boxcar]

That isn't what you said. You said that because Adam sinned, all men who follow are sinners. Isn't that what you said? You now go on to say that man's nature (because of Adam) is immutable and sin-based, yet you also state that all of us have self determination. You don't see the dichotomy in those two statements? If we are immutably sinners, how can we have self choice on the issue? And why would God set up the game so entirely rigged like that?

Whoa, chief. Yes, man's nature is immutable! So? How does that diminish his capacity as a free moral agent? Man is totally free to choose within the confines of his nature. A man can choose between robbing a bank today and instead going out to look for work. Only one of those options are good. He might choose the better option, which doesn't mean his nature good. Nor does it mean that man's will is free in the libertine sense either -- which I think in your mind is the only way man can be said to be truly free -- absolutely free to make choices contrary to his nature. When a man chooses the better option, it only because of the God-ordained means He uses for restraining evil in the world.

God restrains evil in this world in four ways -- all of them He ordained: Human Government, His common grace (power), intuitive revelation of God's Law, and by the witness and testimony of Christ's church in the world.

We can know (if anyone cares to make an effort to read the bible with a sincere attempt to understand it) this is true because angels are also free moral agents and their nature is immutable. God graciously restrains demonic activity in this world, for example. If he didn't, this place we call Earth would actually be Hell. In heaven, the holy angels are holy in nature, so their nature, too, is immutable. So, all rational, intelligent, moral beings whether it be God, the holy angles, the fallen angels or fallen man are all free moral agents with immutable natures. No moral choice anyone makes is forced upon him from without. What controls God's choices is his holy nature. This is why he cannot sin. What controls man's moral choices is his evil nature. This is why man cannot not sin. But when a person does make the right moral choice, it is due to one or more of the above mentioned means at work that restrain evil. Maybe the man who decided to not rob a bank today, for example, was deterred by the thought of being locked up in the slammer for the next 10 years, if caught. The man's fear of being incarcerated (due to his knowledge of the law and how it works, etc.) overrode his desire to make some easy money. The law restrained his actions. But the law did not force him to make the choice he did. (A cop didn't hold a gun to the guy's head to make him choose to look for work instead.) Rather, his mind and maybe even his conscience succumbed to the fear of imprisonment and all the unpleasantnesses that attend to that.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

sure he did. In your own words you stated that God created man. Therefore, the sin in man was with him from the beginning, and it came from God. God just gave each man a choice as to whether to express it, i.e. self determination. Now if you're going to try and tell me that the devil did man in, then you're also saying that the devil is more powerful than God in that God can't fix what the devil has done to his own creation. You see how impotent that makes God appear? He's either a screw-up who can't make things go right the first time or he's a second class citizen to the devil. You figure it out.

And also in my own words I echoed what scripture teaches -- God created everything, including man, "very good". It was man who freely chose to sin. God did not force him to sin. God tested man through Satan. Satan tempted the man. And Eve sinned first, then the Man.

So, when God created Man good -- "good" means the absence of evil. There was no evil in Adam or Eve. But because of God's holy and righteous nature, righteousness is required standard for any rational moral being to commune with and have fellowship with God. Righteousness, though, is not the same thing as "good" (absence of evil). Righteousness means doing right. Adam and Eve did nothing right or wrong in the Garden until they sinned. By their sin, they failed the test for righteousness and plunged the entire human race and indeed the whole world into ruin.

So, my question to you remains: What better alternative do you have to self-determination? Would you prefer that God had made you a programmed robot -- with no powers of self-determination -- self-actualization?

Boxcar

[Robert Goren]

How do you know this to be true? So a two year old has sinned through temptation? How? When?

Also, define temptation? Maybe not a 2 yo, but I have seen 4 yo do things they knew they were not suppose to. What they did may or may not rise to level of a sin. But they did make a choice.

[Clocker]

In the immortal words of Hillary Clinton, what difference does it make? It is a vapid question.

Is man inherently evil? If you knew the "true" answer to that, would you lead your life any differently than you do now? If not, seeking the answer is a waste of time.

P.S. The poll omits the most important question of all. Should you break your egg on the big end or the small end?

[tucker6]

And also in my own words I echoed what scripture teaches -- God created everything, including man, "very good". It was man who freely chose to sin. God did not force him to sin. God tested man through Satan. Satan tempted the man. And Eve sinned first, then the Man.

Adam and Eve did nothing right or wrong in the Garden until they sinned. By their sin, they failed the test for righteousness and plunged the entire human race and indeed the whole world into ruin.

how any grown adult of normal function can believe the tripe you wrote is beyond me. I can only surmise that you are either not normal or you do not believe what you wrote. Which is it, or should I ask Cappy to respond on your behalf?

[tucker6]

In the immortal words of Hillary Clinton, what difference does it make? It is a vapid question.

Is man inherently evil? If you knew the "true" answer to that, would you lead your life any differently than you do now? If not, seeking the answer is a waste of time.

P.S. The poll omits the most important question of all. Should you break your egg on the big end or the small end?
I hit it 2-3 times in the middle and once on the big end and then start peeling. Good question :ThmbUp:

[Clocker]

I hit it 2-3 times in the middle and once on the big end and then start peeling. Good question :ThmbUp:

And it makes a difference in how you live your life. ;)

[tucker6]

And it makes a difference in how you live your life. ;)
I hope it doesn't mean I'm a closet liberal or anything nasty like that. :lol:

[hcap]

I hope it doesn't mean I'm a closet liberal or anything nasty like that. :lol:God forbid. :lol:

Depending of course on whether or not there is one:lol:

[Tom]

Very thoughtful of you Tom.
But this is not political


http://www.fundacionmona.org/mm/image/La%20Fundacion/fundacion%201.jpg


Try to control yourself :lol:

Am I my keeper's brother?

[boxcar]

didn't God sin when he made man a sinner?

He would have if he had. But he made man GOOD! You just don't want to understand that. Good means there was no evil in Adam or Eve prior to the Fall. But remember: Good doesn't = Righteousness.

Boxcar

[Overlay]

It didn't appear to me that the poll allowed for multiple responses, but I see that the number of responses adds up to more than the number of different people who have voted in the poll (according to my screen display after I voted). The response options also did not appear to me to cover all the possibilities. Had I been able to cast votes for other options in addition to the one I chose (Option 7 -- All human beings are sinners), I would have also chosen Option 9 (Other opinion not listed), with the following comment:

Man was originally created in a morally perfect state, but also as a being with free will, and with a conscience that gave him an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. Man's free-will decision to violate the dictates of that conscience through his conduct resulted in the corruption of human nature, and passed that corruption to all subsequent humans, rendering them innately incapable of achieving moral perfection through their own efforts.

Children (of whom I have had two, who have grown into caring, productive adults, but whom I recognize as having imperfections and faults, as well) have not yet acquired many of the vices and patterns of misconduct that they will encounter and exhibit as they mature and come into contact with the world, and they are also more receptive than adults to training and instruction in avoiding those actions. However, children still, from their earliest conscious behavior and interactions with others, display impulses and behaviors -- such as selfishness, and deliberate disobedience to what they are told (with their own best interests in mind) to do -- that must be modified and controlled through discipline. The need for such discipline testifies by itself to the moral imperfection of children, even at a very young age (despite the joy that they can both exhibit and bring us). That is not say that they would be regarded by others as arch-fiends or monsters, but they also do not (and never will) conform to a standard of moral perfection or absolute sinlessness -- any more than any of the rest of us can in our universally fallen state.

[elysiantraveller]

Was the 15,000 post thread not enough that we need a new one with a poll?!?! :bang:

Score a point for atheism... you guys have fun!

[Light]

That's not what the text means. If it did, we have a huge contradiction in scripture, since the same bible (and Jesus for that matter!) says that there is only one God.

Boxcar

Of course that's not what it means....to you. Just like you deny the literal meaning of Jesus saying "the kingdom of heaven is within you". Your interpretation of the Bible will not save you. Why? Because Jesus also said.

"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life"

In other words, Jesus did not approve of the way the scriptures were used at times. he went on to say. "The Scriptures do not give life, I do! They testify of Me!"

So when I tell you I have a direct connection with God within myself, and you come on to me with some "scripture" to try to negate that, you are using scripture exactly the way Jesus said NOT to use it. I look at scripture, but it is secondary to my internal connection with God which is the way Jesus said to use it. Capiche?

[boxcar]

Let me add.....

So you would like me to redo the poll with this option ?

"Adam was the only man created non-evil. Everyone else, however inherited his mistake, and therefore all men are evil now and sincer Adam. Adam was the only human not evil "


In other words in numbers?

%99.999999999999999999999999 of men who ever existed are evil :lol:

So for all practical purposes you should have voted
"All human beings are sinners."

Or/and either option 1 or 2. What stopped you?

.000000000000000000000000000001 percent?

Btw, you can vote for more than one option

If you're going to "redo" anything, Shirley you must start with your hairdo. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar
P.S. All human beings are sinners. This is why we're sinners -- because as Jesus said, we're all evil.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Of course that's not what it means....to you. Just like you deny the literal meaning of Jesus saying "the kingdom of heaven is within you". Your interpretation of the Bible will not save you. Why? Because Jesus also said.

"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life"

In other words, Jesus did not approve of the way the scriptures were used at times. he went on to say. "The Scriptures do not give life, I do! They testify of Me!"

So when I tell you I have a direct connection with God within myself, and you come on to me with some "scripture" to try to negate that, you are using scripture exactly the way Jesus said NOT to use it. I look at scripture, but it is secondary to my internal connection with God which is the way Jesus said to use it. Capiche?

You only look at scripture when you think it supports your position.

Neither Pantheism or Polytheism are taught in scripture. So back to the drawing it is for you to come up with an interpretation that doesn't present numerous contradictions.

I'll give you a hint: Jesus was alluding to an OT passage in Jn 10:34 . If you find the passage, you MIGHT in numerous LIGHT years, figure out its correct meaning. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

In other words, Jesus did not approve of the way the scriptures were used at times. he went on to say. "The Scriptures do not give life, I do! They testify of Me!"

Prove it. Quote me chapter and verse on the bolded part.

Boxcar

[Robert Goren]

Am I my keeper's brother?you know you are quoting a man who murdered his brother.

[hcap]

It didn't appear to me that the poll allowed for multiple responses, but I see that the number of responses adds up to more than the number of different people who have voted in the poll (according to my screen display after I voted). The response options also did not appear to me to cover all the possibilities. Had I been able to cast votes for other options in addition to the one I chose (Option 7 -- All human beings are sinners), I would have also chosen Option 9 (Other opinion not listed), with the following comment:

Man was originally created in a morally perfect state, but also as a being with free will, and with a conscience that gave him an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. Man's free-will decision to violate the dictates of that conscience through his conduct resulted in the corruption of human nature, and passed that corruption to all subsequent humans, rendering them innately incapable of achieving moral perfection through their own efforts.

Children (of whom I have had two, who have grown into caring, productive adults, but whom I recognize as having imperfections and faults, as well) have not yet acquired many of the vices and patterns of misconduct that they will encounter and exhibit as they mature and come into contact with the world, and they are also more receptive than adults to training and instruction in avoiding those actions. However, children still, from their earliest conscious behavior and interactions with others, display impulses and behaviors -- such as selfishness, and deliberate disobedience to what they are told (with their own best interests in mind) to do -- that must be modified and controlled through discipline. The need for such discipline testifies by itself to the moral imperfection of children, even at a very young age (despite the joy that they can both exhibit and bring us). That is not say that they would be regarded by others as arch-fiends or monsters, but they also do not (and never will) conform to a standard of moral perfection or absolute sinlessness -- any more than any of the rest of us can in our universally fallen state.I tried to include many possibilities. Never occured to me to include an option solely covering the rather fundamentalist take on the Christian concept of "original sin". To delve into that much detail fairly would have required many concepts from all sorts of religions and philosophies. Would have wound up with paragraphs and paragraphs and of dozens and dozens of choices.

I was primarily interested in what I described in my early posts about specifically-are children born evil or not evil? Perhaps I should have limited it to my first 4 options and be done with it

Yes, God created man in Sin. I am a parent
Yes, God created man in Sin. I am NOT a parent
No, I am a parent
No, I am a not a parent

But I thought then I would get a reaction similar to what I am getting from you and boxcar, so I thought hey, why not include a broad spectrum?

Again, my main interest was with the direct experience observing children.
Could God have created children Evil? Every fiber in my being finds that revolting and a relic from an earlier era. Your description of your children in this regard is an analysis based on your fundamentalist biblical framework, top down mine is based on observation and direct experience and love as a parent. Bottom up. So......

Simple question: Are children evil?

If God visits the sins of the fathers on the children you must answer yes.

However this brand Christianity takes a sharp turn from Judaism.

Ezekiel 18:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


As a few have mentioned this has turned into another religious thread. I am sorry. I should have known when people discuss religion choices are in the thousands.

We should discuss detail on the original thread.

[therussmeister]

Since people are often grammatically incorrect on the internet, I need a clarification. Is the option "Who's God?" supposed to be "Whose God?"

[hcap]

Since people are often grammatically incorrect on the internet, I need a clarification. Is the option "Who's God?" supposed to be "Whose God?"Who’s as a contraction of “who is”

[hcap]

If you're going to "redo" anything, Shirley you must start with your hairdo. :lol: :lol:
Maybe if I wore your favorite chapeau I would not have to worry?
I can see why to favor aluminum foil.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg

[boxcar]

Maybe if I wore your favorite chapeau I would not have to worry?
I can see why to favor aluminum foil.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg

There you go projecting again. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I tried to include many possibilities. Never occured to me to include an option solely covering the rather fundamentalist take on the Christian concept of "original sin". To delve into that much detail fairly would have required many concepts from all sorts of religions and philosophies. Would have wound up with paragraphs and paragraphs and of dozens and dozens of choices.

I was primarily interested in what I described in my early posts about specifically-are children born evil or not evil? Perhaps I should have limited it to my first 4 options and be done with it

Yes, God created man in Sin. I am a parent
Yes, God created man in Sin. I am NOT a parent
No, I am a parent
No, I am a not a parent

But I thought then I would get a reaction similar to what I am getting from you and boxcar, so I thought hey, why not include a broad spectrum?

Again, my main interest was with the direct experience observing children.
Could God have created children Evil? Every fiber in my being finds that revolting and a relic from an earlier era. Your description of your children in this regard is an analysis based on your fundamentalist biblical framework, top down mine is based on observation and direct experience and love as a parent. Bottom up. So......

Simple question: Are children evil?

If God visits the sins of the fathers on the children you must answer yes.

However this brand Christianity takes a sharp turn from Judaism.

Ezekiel 18:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


As a few have mentioned this has turned into another religious thread. I am sorry. I should have known when people discuss religion choices are in the thousands.

We should discuss detail on the original thread.

The answer is simple to the Ezekiel passage: It has nothing to do with the nature of man (i.e. what man is in his essence). The passage, rather, is talking about individual sins.

Boxcar

[Tom]

If man were born evil, there would be no need for Heaven.
Man must be born neutral with the capacity to become good or evil.
All sinners are not evil people. So a neutral baby can be born with Original sin.

[boxcar]

If man were born evil, there would be no need for Heaven.
Man must be born neutral with the capacity to become good or evil.
All sinners are not evil people. So a neutral baby can be born with Original sin.

Yes, all sinners are evil because evil is the absence of good -- just as darkness is the absence of light. Sin is lawlessness and offensive to a holy God. Sin is a crime against God. All people sin because they have a sin nature. It's what all people do naturally. As stated previously, no child is ever taught Wrong from Right. Children need to be taught Right from Wrong because of indwelling sin within them.

Also, as moral beings there is no such thing as being born amoral (neutral).

Your logic in the first sentence escapes me.

Boxcar

[Actor]

As stated previously, no child is ever taught Wrong from Right. Children need to be taught Right from Wrong because of indwelling sin within them.Aren't these two statements contradictory?

[Actor]

Sin is a crime against God.So if God does not exist, sin does not exist!

[Actor]

Neither Pantheism or Polytheism are taught in scripture.

Boxcar
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods?

Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods

Deuteronomy 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

[boxcar]

Aren't these two statements contradictory?

Tell me how. Children are taught what is right, not what is wrong. At least when I was growing up. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods?

Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods

Deuteronomy 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

And your point is? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

So if God does not exist, sin does not exist!

Evil or sin exists because God exists and He is good. Denying the only good in the universe is evil.

Boxcar

[Actor]

And your point is? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

MlnnWbkMlbg

[PaceAdvantage]

And your point is? :rolleyes:

BoxcarThe point is that the Bible itself is telling the reader that there are other gods out there. It's pretty clear, if you read the thing literally...

[TJDave]

MlnnWbkMlbg

Good stuff.

Unfortunately, Boxcar will never have the courage to view it.

[boxcar]

The point is that the Bible itself is telling the reader that there are other gods out there. It's pretty clear, if you read the thing literally...

Really? Can you point me to one text where the bible says that other gods actually exist -- exist in the same sense that the one and true God exists? Has it never occurred to you that other gods exist only in the carnal minds of fallen man? That these gods are products of evil imaginations? You know...in the same way that contradictions allegedly abound in the bible, according to the sinful minds of men? :rolleyes:

From the NT which is alluding to an OT passage:

Mark 12:32
32 And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;
NASB

The scribe could have been alluding to any number of OT passages, e.g. Deut 4:30, 35; Isa 43:10; 44:8; 45:5-6, 18, 21-22; 46;9, etc.

And then we have these passages which teach that the gods of this world are merely man-made creations:

2 Kings 17:29
29 But every nation still made gods of its own and put them in the houses of the high places which the people of Samaria had made, every nation in their cities in which they lived.
NASB

And,

Jer 25:6-7
6 and do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.' 7 "Yet you have not listened to Me," declares the Lord, "in order that you might provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands to your own harm.
NASB

What is "pretty clear" to me is that you evidently felt very confident in Actor's ability to present a thorny dilemma -- although I don't know why since he has failed dismally in presenting any contradictions in the past. But since you wanted to run with his woefully pathetic knowledge and understanding of the scriptures, consider your intercession on his behalf to be your second attempt at presenting a contradiction or irreconcilable problem. But...you still have one more swing at bat when or if you ever get feelin' lucky again. :)

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Really? Can you point me to one text where the bible says that other gods actually exist -- exist in the same sense that the one and true God exists? Has it never occurred to you that other gods exist only in the carnal minds of fallen man?What if the one and true God only exists in the pure minds of saved man?

Houston, we have a problem.

[boxcar]

What if the one and true God only exists in the pure minds of saved man?

Houston, we have a problem.

But the children of God know Him. Faith isn't blind, which is a presupposition behind your question. As I told Actor, all can know that God is real because he will reveal himself to his own -- to all who come to him on his terms.

Boxcar
P.S. Houston, that was a false alarm! And the fault was a skeptic's.

[Actor]

Has it never occurred to you that other gods exist only in the carnal minds of fallen man? That these gods are products of evil imaginations?

BoxcarNow carry that one god further and you've got it. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Boxcar, does always having an answer equate to always having the correct answer?

[boxcar]

Boxcar, does always having an answer equate to always having the correct answer?

This is analogous to asking: Can truth and nothing but the truth and the whole truth be anything but truth? Just because you cannot see the truth doesn't mean it doesn't exist, any less than a hole the blind man is about step into with his next step.

But if you don't believe me, then believe the scriptures. After all, they are infallible.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Your logic in the first sentence escapes me.


If man were born evil, he would always be evil. He could not change - no one would be not evil to teach him right. If man were always evil, none would go to Heaven.

Heaven is there to reward those who make the right choices. We are here to be tested, to prove ourselves. That mandates we have choices. Born evil denies us that.

A person who commits a venial sin is evil?
A child steals a candy bar and he is evil?

[Clocker]

Children are taught what is right, not what is wrong.



There are two major religions in this country, the Publics and the Parochials. If you go to a Parochial school, the only thing that you are taught is what is wrong.

[fast4522]

This thread is just another pagan ploy, there is a war against people who have faith. The attack is on several fronts not just religion, but also the family unit, our schools have been under siege with content that is unbecoming. This is a filthy dream that should not be ours.

[hcap]

This thread is just another pagan ploy, there is a war against people who have faith. The attack is on several fronts not just religion, but also the family unit, our schools have been under siege with content that is unbecoming. This is a filthy dream that should not be ours.Pagan ploy? :jump:
YOU HAVE OUTDONE YOURSELF! But be very careful around penguins

"Happy Feet Two a squeal to the hit animated family film "Happy Feet" has really raised the hidden liberal agenda warning bells at a christian movie review site.

They warn potential viewers:

Very strong mixed pagan, politically correct worldview promoting homosexual same-sex partnerships and homosexual adoption and promoting radical environmentalism and global warming hysteria throughout, including eating meat is seen as bad as are all humans"
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[boxcar]

There are two major religions in this country, the Publics and the Parochials. If you go to a Parochial school, the only thing that you are taught is what is wrong.

So, in public schools, they teach kids how to bully one another? Or they teach kids how to vandalize property? Or they teach kids how to be disrespectful to authority figures? Or they teach kids how to be selfish, etc., etc., etc.?

Boxcar

[Clocker]

So, in public schools, they teach kids how to bully one another? Or they teach kids how to vandalize property? Or they teach kids how to be disrespectful to authority figures? Or they teach kids how to be selfish, etc., etc., etc.?

Boxcar

If you say so. I never went to one. That explains a lot.

[boxcar]

If man were born evil, he would always be evil. He could not change - no one would be not evil to teach him right. If man were always evil, none would go to Heaven.

Heaven is there to reward those who make the right choices. We are here to be tested, to prove ourselves. That mandates we have choices. Born evil denies us that.

A person who commits a venial sin is evil?
A child steals a candy bar and he is evil?

Okay...thank you for the clarification.

But man is evil which is why Jesus came to die for all those who would believe on him. And when one is born again spiritually, there is a life-changing transformation that takes place within a person's soul. God has miraculously made that person a partaker of His divine nature by the indwelling Holy Spirit, which happens at the point of Regeneration. Scripture calls such born again believers God's new creation (Gal 6:15; 2Cor 5:17), whereby all things have become new and the old things have passed away. This process of transformation is the doctrine of Sanctification, which is the work of Holy Spirit within a person.

Also, as explained some time back on the Religious thread, all unbelievers are 24/7 sinners, which is why all worthy of eternal punishment. Scripture teaches that without faith it's impossible to please God. That what is not of Faith is sin. Scripture teaches that the mind set on the flesh (the nature with which we're born) is hostility toward God. Scripture teaches that those who love the world (it's "system") is an enemy of God. Scripture teaches that the first and foremost commandment is that all must love God with their entire being and He must be first in everyone's lives. The bible teaches that a person who breaks God's holy Law at one point is guilty of breaking all the Law!

I'd say fallen man is in dire straights, to put it mildly!

As Jesus said, only God alone is good.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

If you say so. I never went to one. That explains a lot.

I didn't declare anything, I asked questions. But since you didn't go public, then did your parochial schools teach you those things? Oh...you didn't do parochial either? Home schooled were you? Did your parents teach you those things? Oh...not home schooled either? You know...it's never too late. :D

Boxcar

[Clocker]

I didn't declare anything, I asked questions. But since you didn't go public, then did your parochial schools teach you those things? Oh...you didn't do parochial either? Home schooled were you? Did your parents teach you those things? Oh...not home schooled either? You know...it's never too late. :D

Boxcar

Some of the things I learned in parochial school include reading comprehension, not to jump to conclusions, and a sense of humor.

[hcap]

Some of the things I learned in parochial school include reading comprehension, not to jump to conclusions, and a sense of humor.Good luck getting those points across. Especially sense of humor. :rolleyes:

[mountainman]

The question renders itself invalid by pre-supposing good and evil actually exist beyond the confines of man's mind. A human is just an animal with a more evolved brain. Part of that progression has entailed the development of conscience and morality-evolutionary traits selected by nature for the welfare and perpetuation of our species.

[thaskalos]

Man starts out "good"; there is no inherent "evil" in him. But he is thrown into a jungle and asked to survive...so he learns to adapt to dangerous surroundings. What the religious mistake for "evil acts" are mere survival tactics.

[hcap]

The question renders itself invalid by pre-supposing good and evil actually exist beyond the confines of man's mind. A human is just an animal with a more evolved brain. Part of that progression has entailed the development of conscience and morality-evolutionary traits selected by nature for the welfare and perpetuation of our species.Yes. That is why I gave am option "There is no such thing as evil or Satan"

Only the Abrahamic traditions have that as a major component, and not %100 of all of them take it literally. But the vast majority do. That's probably why only a few votes were cast for no evil/satan

[boxcar]

Yes. That is why I gave am option "There is no such thing as evil or Satan"

Only the Abrahamic traditions have that as a major component, and not %100 of all of them take it literally. But the vast majority do. That's probably why only a few votes were cast for no evil/satan

Tell me there is no evil in the world after some terrorists blow up a train station with hundreds of people in it. Or when a gunman forces his way into your house and terminates your entire family. Then we can talk about how there is no evil in the world?

Boxcar
P.S. If there is no evil in the world, then neither is there good in it.

[hcap]

Or when you drive everyone crazy with blatant nonsense and refuse to discuss issues rationally?

[fast4522]

Don't YOU love it.

[boxcar]

Man starts out "good"; there is no inherent "evil" in him. But he is thrown into a jungle and asked to survive...so he learns to adapt to dangerous surroundings. What the religious mistake for "evil acts" are mere survival tactics.

Poor man. A descendant of the ape, according to many if not most in the world. So, what is wrong with the "jungle"? Is the "jungle" evil? If so, how did it get that way?

Boxcar

[Light]

Tell me there is no evil in the world after some terrorists blow up a train station with hundreds of people in it.

How come you don't consider the American military evil? How come you don't consider using Drones and killing innocent people in 3rd world countries evil? How come you don't consider what George Bush did to millions of Iraqi's evil? How come you don't call the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel evil?

I don't intend to get into a political debate, but my point is when evil depends on whose side you are on then you don't have a clue what evil is. When you walk the straight and narrow and denounce ALL violence whether it is your side or their side, then you can be credible to talk about evil.

[PaceAdvantage]

How come you don't consider the American military evil? How come you don't consider using Drones and killing innocent people in 3rd world countries evil? How come you don't consider what George Bush did to millions of Iraqi's evil? How come you don't call the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel evil?

I don't intend to get into a political debate, but my point is when evil depends on whose side you are on then you don't have a clue what evil is. When you walk the straight and narrow and denounce ALL violence whether it is your side or their side, then you can be credible to talk about evil.If Israel wanted to cleanse the Palestinians, they would have been finished decades ago.

And here I thought you had canned the nonsense talk...I guess not...

[hcap]

Don't YOU love it.The Jackal is from A. H. Almaas, a Sufi oriented spiritual teacher who also employs modern psychology and therapy in a healing process which he calls the Diamond Approach. No matter what you may think it has nothing to do with a real external being called satan. It is about our inner state of disorder. And our home grown demons

[hcap]

Tell me there is no evil in the world after some terrorists blow up a train station with hundreds of people in it. Or when a gunman forces his way into your house and terminates your entire family. Then we can talk about how there is no evil in the world?

Are natural phenomena, hurricanes, tidal waves, diseases such as the bubonic plague or Ebola evil?

P.S. If there is no evil in the world, then neither is there good in it.
False dichotomy. But using your definitions of good and evil quite possibly.

You sewed up this logical straitjacket, you can not escape from it gracefully.





.

[Light]

If Israel wanted to cleanse the Palestinians, they would have been finished decades ago.

And here I thought you had canned the nonsense talk...I guess not...


Israel cannot just exterminate the entire Palestinian population with one blow (even though they could). The reason is the backlash they would get would probably lead to their own destruction and they know it.

So they do it by building settlements on Palestinian lands which (if you read the news) has been the biggest obstacle to the peace talks. How can Israel say we want a two state solution while continuing to expand on Palestinian territory illegally. It comes across disingenuous to say the least. Israel is also illegally occupying and subjugating Palestinians economically. Their food and resources are controlled by Israel which has led to eradicated diseases such as scurvy among Palestinian children which should not exist in this day and age. And Israel is illegally holding thousands of Palestinians in jails with no charges and many are on hunger strikes as I write this. I could go on. You've read my posts about this previously. Israel has may human rights violations against them.

The Pope's recent visit to the Palestinian territories was a political message in support of the Palestinians. I'm sure Boxcar and maybe even you would consider him "evil" for this because, your definition of evil and Boxcars and most people are biased. That's understandable because this is all you know. Most people outside of the U.S. are sympathetic to the Palestinians and actually view Israel as somewhat "evil". This is because the media reporting in other countries is not suppressed if the news makes Israel look like a school bully.

But I don't condone the violence that the Palestinians inflict on Israel either, even though the ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths is like 1000-1. We are ALL children of God. OK, you are not making claims to be a man of God, so you can go ahead and continue with your Israeli bias. I am not really intending to discuss the ME conflict per say, only what it means in relation to one's soul and conscience. But for a man claiming he is a man of God first, and country second as Boxcar alludes to, he should be ashamed of himself for supporting such a tyranny of man on man.

[fast4522]

When Iran will be no more, all dreams of Persia will have all been evaporated. If Palestinians abstain from their current stupidity of fighting with rocket attacks and bombing buses, only then will there be no retaliation. Anyone in Israel's position should exact 50-1 retaliation of pain from such a daft people. Israel does not want to exterminate anyone, this is the way of your elk. Israel does not owe anyone an economy, life is hard in the desert especially if your stupid.

[Actor]

... our schools have been under siege with content that is unbecoming.Just curious. What is this "content that is unbecoming?"

[Actor]

Scripture teaches that without faith it's impossible to please God.Faith = gullibility. Why does God value gullibility?

[fast4522]

Fair question, fair answer right?

The story is the same in all fifty states, and yet a bit different in each. Across the border in Massachusetts there was a story in the local paper of material in books considered somewhat pornographic at the middle school level or condoms at the 6th grade level. Across the board all fifty states revisionist malarkey widespread for years. I will not touch on what the standard pet peeves the gang goes after like prayer, pledge of allegiance etc., but would say the alarm by local parents is non partisan.

[Actor]

When you walk the straight and narrow and denounce ALL violence whether it is your side or their side, then you can be credible to talk about evil.
Numbers 31
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.

Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

[tucker6]

Numbers 31
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.

Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Seems like man got his evil streak from God.

[fast4522]

From the very beginning of time there have been men who did not intend to work and instead have others earn their keep. All religions get most of it right and all fail to get it all right. Everything written has to be viewed to take that into account having been put to paper or other by man, I could not put that on God.

[boxcar]

Faith = gullibility. Why does God value gullibility?

Blind faith is irrational as well as gullible. But rational faith isn't.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Or when you drive everyone crazy with blatant nonsense and refuse to discuss issues rationally?

And if that be the case, then you just shot yourself in the foot since you would be admitting to the existence of evil, which you just got done denying. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Numbers 31
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.

Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


You need to keep up better. This has been addressed on the Religious thread a few times. The long and short of it is this: God used Israel to execute his righteous justice upon an evil people.

The rest of it you can research online or search for it in the above mentioned thread.

Boxcar

[Actor]

Blind faith is irrational as well as gullible. But rational faith isn't.

Boxcar"Rational faith" is an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

All faith is "blind faith" otherwise it is not faith.

[Actor]

You need to keep up better. This has been addressed on the Religious thread a few times.But not resolved.

The long and short of it is this: God used Israel to execute his righteous justice upon an evil people.So, in the name of "righteous justice" God condones the murder of male children and the rape of young girls. Is that why "Thou shalt not rape" was left out of the ten commandments?

We have words other than "righteous justice" for this kind of behavior.

Genocide
Ethnic cleansing
Holocaust
Terrorism

What's a modern example of "an evil people?" The Nazis! Carrying your rationale to its logical conclusion, we did not deal with the Nazis correctly. We should have killed every adult German and every male German child. Then we should have given every allied soldier a German girl for his very own concubine, provided medical examination confirmed that she was a virgin. Having failed to do this we did not carry out God's will.

Clearly Yahweh is a genocidal, racist, terrorist Nazi. This is the God you think loves you? Showers his grace upon you? And you base your belief on what He wrote in His own bronze age Mein Kampf?

[Overlay]

"Rational faith" is an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

All faith is "blind faith" otherwise it is not faith.

Faith is confidence in what is unknown or unknowable based on what is known or what has been revealed. It's a quality that we all both display and benefit from countless times every day in interacting with people, events, or forces over which we have no control, but on which we rely (or expect others to rely in their dealings with us) based on past history or knowledge. For the Christian, it is belief based on the accounts of witnesses and a history of dealings with mankind culminating in the historical existence of a man who provided repeated evidence, through his actions and his fulfillment of long-established prophecy, of being the one, unique God in human flesh, especially in his resurrection from the dead, and whom the Christian therefore trusts for accuracy in his claims about himself; his stated purpose for living, dying, and rising again; and his teachings about what occurs after death and how people can have eternal life.

[Actor]

Faith is confidence in what is unknown or unknowable based on what is known or what has been revealed.That sentence just doesn't make any sense. :confused:
It's a quality that we all both display and benefit from countless times every day in interacting with people, events, or forces over which we have no control, but on which we rely (or expect others to rely in their dealings with us) based on past history or knowledge. For the Christian, it is belief based on the accounts of witnesses ...Of whom none can be shown to have ever existed.
... and a history of dealings with mankind culminating in the historical existence of a man ...Who is probably mythical.
.. who provided repeated evidence, ...What evidence?
... through his actions and his fulfillment of long-established prophecy, ...Name one.
... of being the one, unique God in human flesh, especially in his resurrection from the dead, ...The resurrection is unproven and unprovable. It violates all scientific fact.
... and whom the Christian therefore trusts for accuracy in his claims about himself; his stated purpose for living, dying, and rising again; and his teachings about what occurs after death and how people can have eternal life.All of which leads back to the question of whether he ever existed.

[thaskalos]

All of which leads back to the question of whether he ever existed.

And back to the original argument...that all faith is "blind faith".

We have faith in what we "believe". If we knew for sure that what we believed was indeed true...then we wouldn't say that we "believe it". We would say that we KNOW IT.

[PaceAdvantage]

And back to the original argument...that all faith is "blind faith".

We have faith in what we "believe". If we knew for sure that what we believed was indeed true...then we wouldn't say that we "believe it". We would say that we KNOW IT.I'm pretty sure I posted something very similar here in this thread not too long ago...but Boxcar shot it down in his inimitable Boxcarian style.

[hcap]

I'm pretty sure I posted something very similar here in this thread not too long ago...but Boxcar shot it down in his inimitable Boxcarian style.The reason these threads go on and on is rarely "Boxcarian style, Boxcarian substance.

[boxcar]

And back to the original argument...that all faith is "blind faith".

We have faith in what we "believe". If we knew for sure that what we believed was indeed true...then we wouldn't say that we "believe it". We would say that we KNOW IT.

But biblical faith involves all the nuances of belief, e.g. confidence, trust, reliance, etc. In the real world (yes, even in the one in which you live :D ),
we express out trust or faith in people because we have genuine knowledge of those in whom we trust. Rational people trust those whom they know. This is called rational faith. Conversely, irrational faith is placing our trust or confidence in those whom we do not know.

The bible says that we mere mortals can have a true knowledge of our Creator by His grace.

Jer 9:23-24
23 Thus says the Lord, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who exercises lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things, "declares the Lord.
NASB

And,

Jer 31:34
4 "And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

And,

John 17:3-4
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NASB

And,

2 Cor 4:6
6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
NASB

And,

1 John 5:20-21
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NASB

Unbelievers, however, have no saving knowledge of the Lord. They remain as estranged from him as the day they were conceived in sin.

1 Sam 2:12
12 Now the sons of Eli were worthless men; they did not know the Lord
NASB

The great prophet Samuel served the Lord for years in the temple before he had true knowledge of him. But Samuel, like Paul in the NT, had his own peculiar Road-to-Damascus experience by which he subsequently came to have true knowledge of the Lord.

1 Sam 3:7
7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, nor had the word of the Lord yet been revealed to him.
NASB

Read the rest of the chapter to find out how he came to know the Lord.

The religious leaders of Christ's day crucified their Messiah because they, too, had no saving knowledge of the Lord.

John 16:3
3 "And these things they will do, because they have not known the Father, or Me.
NASB

This true knowledge of God comes through His word and by his Spirit; for His Spirit bears witness to the spirit of every one of his children (Rom 8:16).

Therefore, the Christian Faith is a rational faith. The great paradox is that even though the children of God don't see Him, their faith is not blind -- not irrational. The child of God knows his heavenly Father who has loved him in eternity past by other means than sight.

Have I not always maintained that the Lord's salvation is a supernatural act?

So, yes...like Paul, I do "KNOW it".

2 Tim 1:12
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
NASB

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I'm pretty sure I posted something very similar here in this thread not too long ago...but Boxcar shot it down in his inimitable Boxcarian style.

Yes, indeed. The "style" is called the Word of God, which is the only source of absolute truth in the universe.

Boxcar

[Actor]

But biblical faith involves all the nuances of belief, e.g. confidence, trust, reliance, etc.I notice you left out evidence. :rolleyes:

we express out trust or faith in people because we have genuine knowledge of those in whom we trust. Rational people trust those whom they know. This is called rational faith.This so-called "rational faith" in people comes about because we have evidence that they are trustworthy. Your faith in a person will probably come to a quick end if you are suddenly presented with evidence that he has been stealing from you, or committing other crimes against you.

Conversely, irrational faith is placing our trust or confidence in those whom we do not know.Like God!

The bible says that we mere mortals can have a true knowledge of our Creator by His grace.If that's what it says then the Bible lies. According to you God withholds his grace from most people and bestows it on a few "elect." You have thus far been unable to say by what criteria God withholds his grace.

[tucker6]

Yes, indeed. The "style" is called the Word of God, which is the only source of absolute truth in the universe.

Boxcar
How do you know it is the word of God? How much of the Bible is poetic license and how much is loosely based on reality?

The only thing you have is faith because facts completely escape your arguments.

[boxcar]

How do you know it is the word of God? How much of the Bible is poetic license and how much is loosely based on reality?

The only thing you have is faith because facts completely escape your arguments.

I have answered this kind of question often on the other thread. The condensed version to my answer is the uniqueness of the message. The bible is in a class all by itself on many different levels.

Just the sheer fact that the world rejects everything in scripture tells me that scripture did not originate from the minds of worldly people.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I notice you left out evidence. :rolleyes:

No, I haven't. You haven't been paying attention. I know God is my Creator and Redeemer and heavenly Father because he has revealed himself to me. My spirit bears witness to His. That, sir, is evidence.

More evidence is in the new heart God gave me. I no longer think and act the way I did prior to my conversion.

If that's what it says then the Bible lies. According to you God withholds his grace from most people and bestows it on a few "elect." You have thus far been unable to say by what criteria God withholds his grace.

God's grace is sovereign. Since no one deserves his grace, he is not obligated to bestow it on anyone. The criteria is his purpose.

Rom 9:11-13
11 for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NASB

And,

Eph 1:11
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

And,

2 Tim 1:9
9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
NASB

Boxcar

[tucker6]

I have answered this kind of question often on the other thread. The condensed version to my answer is the uniqueness of the message. The bible is in a class all by itself on many different levels.

Just the sheer fact that the world rejects everything in scripture tells me that scripture did not originate from the minds of worldly people.

Boxcar
LOL. What a lame, horse shit response. Sorry for the language PACE. It is what it is.

[Actor]

No, I haven't. You haven't been paying attention."Evidence" was not in the list you gave. I mean the list in the post. You limited the list toconfidence, trust, relianceApparently you do not value evidence enough to include it on your list.

I know God is my Creator and Redeemer and heavenly Father because he has revealed himself to me. My spirit bears witness to His. That, sir, is evidence.Evidence of what? How did God reveal himself to you? Was there a burning bush? Exactly what did he say?

How does your spirit bear witness? Do you mean you feel good? That could be because you no longer face reality.

More evidence is in the new heart God gave me. I no longer think and act the way I did prior to my conversion.A vague generality. Exactly how do you "no longer think and act?" Have you ceased to have impure thoughts? Do you no longer commit "adultery in the heart?"

Or is it something more positive? Do you spend your time down at the shelter preparing meals for the homeless? Do you knock on doors and spread the word? Do you tithe?

Or have you made the ultimate sacrifice and become a Democrat? :lol:

God's grace is sovereign. Since no one deserves his grace, he is not obligated to bestow it on anyone. The criteria is his purpose.Which is what? What purpose could possibly be served by bestowing his grace on a few elect while the majority of the human race have never heard of him?

[Actor]

LOL. What a lame, horse shit response. Sorry for the language PACE. It is what it is.Most of Boxie's responses are lame, horse shit.

[boxcar]

"Evidence" was not in the list you gave. I mean the list in the post. You limited the list toApparently you do not value evidence enough to include it on your list.

But I cited passages wherein there is experiential evidence.

Evidence of what? How did God reveal himself to you? Was there a burning bush? Exactly what did he say?

Unlike Paul I wasn't caught up to the "third heaven". But like all Christians I have God's holy presence in me which I can often sense.

John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.
NASB

I also have the evidence of my own transformed life. I know what I was before my conversion and what I am now by God's grace.

I also have the evidence of my transformed life that is in accordance with what scripture says it should be. So, both my life and scripture bears witness to God and his truthfulness.

How does your spirit bear witness? Do you mean you feel good? That could be because you no longer face reality.

These are not things which can be put into words. One needs to experience the presence of God -- something you do not want to do.

A vague generality. Exactly how do you "no longer think and act?" Have you ceased to have impure thoughts? Do you no longer commit "adultery in the heart?"

Or is it something more positive? Do you spend your time down at the shelter preparing meals for the homeless? Do you knock on doors and spread the word? Do you tithe?

All the above, save for tithing. Tithing was required under the Law of Moses; but I'm under the New Covenant, not the Old.

Or have you made the ultimate sacrifice and become a Democrat? :lol:

God forbid!

Which is what? What purpose could possibly be served by bestowing his grace on a few elect while the majority of the human race have never heard of him?

God very often doesn't reveal his purpose. He doesn't have to. He is good and is the sovereign King of the universe. He does whatsoever he pleases.
The secret things of God belong to Him. My only concern is to become well versed in the things he has revealed.

Also, what you say about the "majority of the human race" is not true. The gospel has spread far and wide in this world; most reject the outward call of it. But those who are effectually called (from within and without) will respond positively.)

Boxcar

[boxcar]

LOL. What a lame, horse shit response. Sorry for the language PACE. It is what it is.

And you are what you are; but you should plead with God on your knees to not leave you in that state.

If you really wanted a better answer, you would search through my posts on the Religious thread. But we both know that you really could care less.

Boxcar

[Actor]

But I cited passages wherein there is experiential evidence.I've told you before that scripture proves nothing.

Unlike Paul I wasn't caught up to the "third heaven". But like all Christians I have God's holy presence in me which I can often sense.What you sense is not evidence. Only you can sense it, no one else. How do you know it's not a delusion?

Madmen have "sensed" that God wanted them to kill people and have proceeded accordingly.

John 14:23
23[i] Jesus answered ...You have yet to prove that Jesus existed. I've told you before that when you start quoting scripture I stop reading. So in the future save yourself time and effort and just get on with it.

God very often doesn't reveal his purpose. He doesn't have to.That's the ultimate cop-out. The answer given by snake oil salesmen and other charlatans. It comes down to "believe me or I'll kill you."

[boxcar]

I've told you before that scripture proves nothing.

Then don't ask me for evidence.

What you sense is not evidence. Only you can sense it, no one else. How do you know it's not a delusion?

Madmen have "sensed" that God wanted them to kill people and have proceeded accordingly.

Because my experience is in line with scripture.

And what you say about others is not true. Other Christians can sense God's presence. Sometimes when we're in deep prayer, we can sense him. Sometimes by meditating on his word, we can sense him. Sometimes just engaging in a certain activity in which He has led us, we can sense his presence, etc.

The world (unbelievers) however cannot and never will sense him because He reveals himself only to his people. God does not welcome the ungodly to Himsel because they neither fear Him or do his will.

You have yet to prove that Jesus existed. I've told you before that when you start quoting scripture I stop reading. So in the future save yourself time and effort and just get on with it.

But the bible is sacred history. And according to that history book, Jesus existed. Also, other extra-biblical works attest to his existence. (We've had this discussion before.)

That's the ultimate cop-out. The answer given by snake oil salesmen and other charlatans. It comes down to "believe me or I'll kill you."

But I never said that. By you choosing to not believe, you have condemned yourself and made yourself unworthy of his great salvation. Also, my answer was biblical since the bible tells us that God does not reveal everything to mankind. He only reveals what we need to know for salvation. The secret things of God belong to Him, and the things revealed belong to those who will believe (Deut 29:29). If you don't like God's sovereignty, that is your personal problem.

Boxcar

[Actor]

Then don't ask me for evidence.No way. When you post BS, I will point out that it is BS.

But the bible is sacred history.It's Christian propaganda.

And according to that history book, Jesus existed. Also, other extra-biblical works attest to his existence. (We've had this discussion before.)And you lost.

But I never said that.But you said that God said it. And people who supposedly spoke for God said it. It all comes down to "don't think. If you dare to think, I'll kill you."

By you choosing to not believe ...I do not choose to believe or to not believe. I examine the evidence and accept where logic takes me.

Remember Pons and Fleischmann? Their evidence does not stand up to examination. Neither does the Bible.

... you have condemned yourself and made yourself unworthy of his great salvation.Translation: "believe me or I'll kill you." Do you seriously think you can convert me with fear?

The secret things of God belong to Him, and the things revealed belong to those who will believe (Deut 29:29).Scholars believe that Deut is a forgery, written about 500 BCE by Babylonian priests.

If you don't like God's sovereignty, that is your personal problem.No problem at all. :lol:

The problem is not "God's sovereignty." The problem is whether God exists. So far there is nothing to indicate that he does.

[Actor]

... the bible tells us that God does not reveal everything to mankind. He only reveals what we need to know for salvation. The secret things of God belong to Him, and the things revealed belong to those who will believe.This is the fallacy of ...

Special pleading, or ad-hoc reasoning

This is a subtle fallacy which is often difficult to recognize. In essence, it is the arbitrary introduction of new elements into an argument in order to fix them so that they appear valid. A good example of this is the ad-hoc dismissal of negative test results. For example, one might point out that ESP has never been demonstrated under adequate test conditions, therefore ESP is not a genuine phenomenon. Defenders of ESP have attempted to counter this argument by introducing the arbitrary premise that ESP does not work in the presence of skeptics.
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logical-fallacies

[thaskalos]

To me...the question isn't whether or not God exists...but whether or not -- even if he EXISTS -- he resembles the divine being that he is advertised as in the religious scriptures.

You define a creator by his creations...and God's chief creation is man. Looking at the chief creation...one realizes that the creator cannot be either all-powerful, or all-knowing.

The scriptures also tell us that nothing happens in this world unless God wills it to happen. Which means that he isn't ever-loving either...

[hcap]

It is a total waste of time discussing God, etc, with someone who projects himself and limitations and foibles onto that anthropomorphic simplistic version of god 101.

Buddha and the hidden potential of man, makes more sense more often.(but I am sure you know this) :lol:

[boxcar]

To me...the question isn't whether or not God exists...but whether or not -- even if he EXISTS -- he resembles the divine being that he is advertised as in the religious scriptures.

You define a creator by his creations...and God's chief creation is man. Looking at the chief creation...one realizes that the creator cannot be either all-powerful, or all-knowing.

The scriptures also tell us that nothing happens in this world unless God wills it to happen. Which means that he isn't ever-loving either...

So...you don't like having the power of self-determination? The power to make your own personal choices? What would your alternative be? How would you have preferred that God made YOU? A robot? A machine with no mind, will, emotions and conscience?

Also, your logic above is extremely faulty -- no doubt due to your fallen nature.

But I am glad that you recognize that scripture teaches the sovereignty of God. He is the supreme ruler over all His creation who works all things after the counsel of his own will and not as a mere reaction to man's.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

This is the fallacy of ...


http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logical-fallacies

Hey, Mr. Atheist, before getting on your soapbox attempting to preach "logic" to anyone, you should first understand that atheism is another self-defeating philosophy.

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

Hey, Mr. Atheist, before getting on your soapbox attempting to preach "logic" to anyone, you should first understand that atheism is another self-defeating philosophy.

Boxcar

Meaning?

According to you...ALL non-Christian philosophies are "self-defeating".

[Actor]

Hey, Mr. Atheist, before getting on your soapbox attempting to preach "logic" to anyone, you should first understand that atheism is another self-defeating philosophy.

BoxcarHey, Mr. Preacher Man, before getting on your soapbox attempting to preach "anything" to anyone, you should first understand that Christianity is another self-defeating philosophy.

FTFY

[boxcar]

Hey, Mr. Preacher Man, before getting on your soapbox attempting to preach "anything" to anyone, you should first understand that Christianity is another self-defeating philosophy.

FTFY

Prove it. Remember: For a philosophy or religion to be self-defeating, it must turn upon itself with a contradiction. Go for it.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Meaning?

According to you...ALL non-Christian philosophies are "self-defeating".

That's correct! And you want to know why that is? Because only scripture is Truth. Therefore, all other systems of thought are lies, and this is why they are self-defeating in nature.

Boxcar

[TJDave]

That's correct! And you want to know why that is? Because only scripture is Truth. Therefore, all other systems of thought are lies, and this is why they are self-defeating in nature.

Boxcar

How can one argue with logic like that?

[Actor]

That's correct! And you want to know why that is? Because only scripture is Truth. Therefore, all other systems of thought are lies, and this is why they are self-defeating in nature.

BoxcarLet's see? :cool:

F = ma

It's pretty hard to convince me and a few hundred million other people that that's not true. But I don't seem to be able to find it in scripture. :rolleyes:

[Actor]

How can one argue with logic like that?The first step would be to realize that it's not logic! :cool:

[thaskalos]

That's correct! And you want to know why that is? Because only scripture is Truth. Therefore, all other systems of thought are lies, and this is why they are self-defeating in nature.

Boxcar

And scripture is the "Truth", because...let me guess:

Because the SCRIPTURE tells us so...right?

Right! :ThmbUp:

[boxcar]

How can one argue with logic like that?

You're not arguing against my logic. You're arguing against God, who exists regardless of your self-defeating philosophy.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

And scripture is the "Truth", because...let me guess:

Because the SCRIPTURE tells us so...right?

Right! :ThmbUp:

It's truth because it is internally consistent with itself and consistent with Natural Revelation -- reality as we all know it.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Mr. Rocket Scientist, where are you? Are you still trying to formulate a concise and coherent statement that shows us how biblical Christianity is a self-defeating belief system?

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

It's truth because it is internally consistent with itself and consistent with Natural Revelation -- reality as we all know it.

Boxcar
And this is the guideline through which you were able to stamp out all the non-Christian philosophies as "false"? They were not "internally consistent with themselves and consistent with Natural Revelation"?

When will you tell the truth and admit that you know NOTHING about any of the non-Christian philosophies? You are even petrified to watch the videos that Actor and Hcap have posted in this thread...for fear that by watching them you would blaspheme against God...and lose your place in the Heavenly Kingdom. :rolleyes:

Leave the other philosophies out of it, Boxcar...and talk about the things that you know.

[Actor]

Mr. Rocket Scientist, where are you?My computer has been commandeered by a kid and his video game. I've been given 30 minutes. He's timing me.

[boxcar]

And this is the guideline through which you were able to stamp out all the non-Christian philosophies as "false"? They were not "internally consistent with themselves and consistent with Natural Revelation"?

When will you tell the truth and admit that you know NOTHING about any of the non-Christian philosophies? You are even petrified to watch the videos that Actor and Hcap have posted in this thread...for fear that by watching them you would blaspheme against God...and lose your place in the Heavenly Kingdom. :rolleyes:

Leave the other philosophies out of it, Boxcar...and talk about the things that you know.

Okay...you found me out. I know nothing about the "other philosophies" and I'm scared silly to watch Actor's and Hcap's stupid, mind-numbing vids. :rolleyes:

By the way, Thask, do any of those other religions claim to be the word of God? You see...the few that do...like the Mormons' "sacred scriptures" -- are not internally consistent with the real McCoy. A real shocker, heh? :eek:

Boxcar
P.S. How could I ever lose my place in the heavenly kingdom when according to you and Light, the kingdom is in everyone on the planet Probably in those in hell, too. Probably the demons, as well. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You see...you can't even keep a simple story straight, can you!?

[boxcar]

My computer has been commandeered by a kid and his video game. I've been given 30 minutes. He's timing me.

Allow me to translate this rubbish: I just made that statement up like I make up all my other dumb claims, like...Jesus is a myth, Paul is a myth, John and Peter are myths, Abraham, Moses, everything ---everything in the bible is fiction because I say it is. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar
P.S. But I give the kid credit. He's smart since he didn't kidnap you and opted instead for something far more valuable and practical.

[Actor]

Hey, Mr. Atheist, before getting on your soapbox attempting to preach "logic" to anyone, you should first understand that atheism is another self-defeating philosophy.

BoxcarThe burden of proof is on you. Exactly how is atheism "self-defeating"? (Whatever "self-defeating" means?) Since religion depends on your imaginary friend, religion is self defeating. After all, you are wasting your life worshiping something that doesn't exist. This is the one life you have and you are wasting it on a big guilt trip. I would be doing you a big favor if I could deconvert you.

[thaskalos]

Okay...you found me out. I know nothing about the "other philosophies" and I'm scared silly to watch Actor's and Hcap's stupid, mind-numbing vids. :rolleyes:

By the way, Thask, do any of those other religions claim to be the word of God? You see...the few that do...like the Mormons' "sacred scriptures" -- are not internally consistent with the real McCoy. A real shocker, heh? :eek:

Boxcar
P.S. How could I ever lose my place in the heavenly kingdom when according to you and Light, the kingdom is in everyone on the planet Probably in those in hell, too. Probably the demons, as well. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You see...you can't even keep a simple story straight, can you!?

Scripture is so "internally consistent with the real McCoy"...that Christianity has divided itself into a myriad sects...who all claim to be "consistent with the real McCoy"...while they are engaged in a bitter feud with one another. All the different sects say that they represent the "Truth"...all of them have the Holy Spirit working for them...and all of them proclaim that the other Christian groups are "heresies". You guys can't agree on the interpretation of the scripture among yourselves...and yet you presume to teach it to "outsiders".

Boxcar...has it ever occurred to you that Christianity would be a lot better off if some of you "saved souls" were better examples to the rest of the world than you currently are?

Jesus said to love your enemies...and you guys can't even stomach the other Christians.

It's a freaking disgrace...

[hcap]

Allow me to translate this rubbish: I just made that statement up like I make up all my other dumb claims, like...Jesus is a myth, Paul is a myth, John and Peter are myths, Abraham, Moses, everything ---everything in the bible is fiction because I say it is. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I am the one who thinks all of the above are myths.

btw, you forgot to include God herself :lol:

[boxcar]

The burden of proof is on you. Exactly how is atheism "self-defeating"? (Whatever "self-defeating" means?) Since religion depends on your imaginary friend, religion is self defeating. After all, you are wasting your life worshiping something that doesn't exist. This is the one life you have and you are wasting it on a big guilt trip. I would be doing you a big favor if I could deconvert you. (emphasis mine)

I have explained many times what self-defeating means. In fact, it should be self-evident to all with an IQ number above the length of a shoe lace. :rolleyes: For example, what does "defeat the purpose" mean? Or whenever we do something that is really dumb and is at "cross purposes" with one another?

The most poignant example AGAIN would be a statement like this:

There is no such thing as absolute truth.

Assuming the one making the statement is serious and is absolutely sure that there is such no thing as absolute truth, then the statement obviously collapses upon itself because his proposition is self-contradictory. Just like athesim! :rolleyes:

You claim: There is no God. But unless you are God and have infinite knowledge of all things, then your philosophy is self-defeating because it presupposes such knowledge -- that you -- a finite and fallible human being -- have in fact searched the entire universe for Him and have infinitely exhausted all means of finding him. Stated differently: Unless you are something much more than human and are God and have this kind of infinite knowledge, you cannot possibly know God doesn't exist. But on the other hand, if you insist that you personally have such knowledge, then your claim presupposes you possess infinite knowledge of all things in the universe, which would implicitly make YOU the very thing that you deny exists -- in which case your philosophy is self-defeating in nature because it is inherently contradictory! And this, sir, makes it a lie because you, implicitly being God, cannot exist and not exist at the same time, in the same place and in the same sense!. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Atheism, above all other philosophies, is the most absurd of all human philosophies. Since you are unable to conclusively prove the negative statement, your only other avenue of hope would be to prove [positively] that you have infinite knowledge of all things in the universe. Then, and only then, would anyone with a half a brain begin to take your philosophy seriously.

It is no wonder that the psalmist called atheists fools! And it's also written:

Prov 1:22
22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love simplicity?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing,
And fools hate knowledge?
NASB

Now, Mr. Scientist, tell me how biblical Christianity is a self-defeating belief system in concise and coherent terms in a paragraph or two, as I have done now with Atheism and have done in the past with its kissing cousin Unlimited Agnosticism.. Remember: You must show how the belief system is inherently contradictory, which would make it self-defeating.

Talk about a Mission Impossible.... But I just know you will try to embark on a fool's errand. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I am the one who thinks all of the above are myths.

btw, you forgot to include God herself :lol:

Your buddy Actor does too. Both of you -- "like [your spiritual]father, like son.:

Boxcar

[Actor]

Allow me to translate this rubbish: I just made that statement up like I make up all my other dumb claims, like...Jesus is a myth, Paul is a myth, John and Peter are myths, Abraham, Moses, everything ---everything in the bible is fiction because I say it is. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar
As I've explained before, I cannot take credit for the Jesus myth theory, the Pauline myth theory, etc. These ideas have been around for a couple of centuries. Most of the credit goes to Bruno Bauer who, around 1830, was the first to have the courage to actually suggest that Jesus never existed (losing his job in the process), although other writers had previously claimed that Jesus was not divine, performed no miracles and did not rise from the dead.

I have also previously stated that the Jesus myth theory cannot be proven either way. But he definitely was not divine, performed no miracles and did not rise from the dead.

Your mind is closed on this subject. I'm willing to consider whatever evidence anyone has to present on the matter, but that does not imply that I will not question said evidence and decide for myself whether it stands up or not.

[hcap]

Myth: a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory

My take is broader. I believe the myths at the root of long lasting belief systems often are the remnants of greater truths.



Jung on Mythology

For Jung mythmaking is about the human psyche. It is one of the ways the unconscious part of our psyche expresses itself, a way in which the collective unconscious strives to become conscious. This makes myth so important to Jung. He sees consciousness as the ultimate goal of human development, of the individuation process. Myths and the archetypes that come to life in them become his keys to the realms of the unconscious, in particular the collective unconscious. Myth is the language of the unconscious Jung explores to gain access to its mystery.

According to Jung, human beings project onto the “external” world what is in their “inner” world. The whole of mythology could be seen as a sort of projection out of the collective unconscious. Just as the constellations where projected into the heavens, similar figures were projected into legends and fairytales.

My view is in addition to the distorted historical "game of telephone" which takes place, that beneath the popular bastardized superstitions of religion, are solid psychological truths........


"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."

Joseph Campbell

[boxcar]

As I've explained before, I cannot take credit for the Jesus myth theory, the Pauline myth theory, etc. These ideas have been around for a couple of centuries. Most of the credit goes to Bruno Bauer who, around 1830, was the first to have the courage to actually suggest that Jesus never existed (losing his job in the process), although other writers had previously claimed that Jesus was not divine, performed no miracles and did not rise from the dead.

I have also previously stated that the Jesus myth theory cannot be proven either way. But he definitely was not divine, performed no miracles and did not rise from the dead.

Your mind is closed on this subject. I'm willing to consider whatever evidence anyone has to present on the matter, but that does not imply that I will not question said evidence and decide for myself whether it stands up or not.

Yeah...what a coincidence. The "myths" gave rise in the era of the rise of the major cults, also. It took only 19 centuries for that to happen, right? :rolleyes:

And you're not willing to do anything. You're mind is as made up as mine is.

Boxcar