Is CC as good as Point Given?

[TheEdge07]

Just looking at horses who won 2/3 of the Crown in no particular order

Came across Point Given who after the derby turned into a beast his Belmont win was a tour de force(as Durkin would say)

PG was close to a blistering derby pace (45) and still held his own,many say it cost him the TC..

Is CC even in the same atmosphere as PG?

[Stillriledup]

Thats a question for figure makers, but my gut feeling is no.

[mannyberrios]

No

[tucker6]

No
great analysis. I know transitive property is bad form, but CC's final Preakness time was 0.65 seconds faster than PG. Whether CC is better than PG is unknown to me, but given just this one data point, I'd say the discussion deserves more than a simple NO.

[Dark Horse]

Is CC even in the same atmosphere as PG?

Yes.

[horses4courses]

For all intents and purposes, he will be if he wins the TC.

[TheEdge07]

For all intents and purposes, he will be if he wins the TC.

So because CC wins the TC means hes better then most horses who have failed..

Disagree..Ill give you 3 horses who won 2/3 and CC would need a head start to beat all 3..

Risen Star
Spectacular Bid
Sunday Silence.

[horses4courses]

So because CC wins the TC means hes better then most horses who have failed..

Disagree..Ill give you 3 horses who won 2/3 and CC would need a head start to beat all 3..

Risen Star
Spectacular Bid
Sunday Silence.

Unfortunately, they will never to go post to face each other.
Apples and oranges - and a TC winner will, rightfully, hold a
higher place in history.

I'll give you Spectacular Bid, though.
The other two? Ehhhh.....

[woodbinepmi]

The same people screaming he is no good, will be the same people in five years saying "he's no California Chrome".

[TheEdge07]

Unfortunately, they will never to go post to face each other.
Apples and oranges - and a TC winner will, rightfully, hold a
higher place in history.

I'll give you Spectacular Bid, though.
The other two? Ehhhh.....

Ehhh on the other 2..

Sunday Silence and Risen Star..You cant be serious..

[Mystic]

The same people screaming he is no good, will be the same people in five years saying "he's no California Chrome".
I seriously doubt that.. lol :D

[mostpost]

Just looking at horses who won 2/3 of the Crown in no particular order

Came across Point Given who after the derby turned into a beast his Belmont win was a tour de force(as Durkin would say)

PG was close to a blistering derby pace (45) and still held his own,many say it cost him the TC..

Is CC even in the same atmosphere as PG?
As of the Preakness California Chrome has won eight of twelve races.
Point Given had won six of ten.

As a three year old-up to the Preakness-Point Given won the Grade two San Felipe and the Grade one Santa Anita Derby and Preakness.

As a three year old-up to the Preakness-California Chrome won the Grade Two San Felipe; and the Grade one Santa Anita Derby, Preakness and Kentucky Derby.

California Chrome had a faster time by at least two lengths in the the three races won by both horses. Those would be the San Felipe, the Santa Anita Derby, and the Preakness.

Now, none of this proves California Chrome is the better horse, but it makes a strong case-in my opinion.

[horses4courses]

Ehhh on the other 2..

Sunday Silence and Risen Star..You cant be serious..

CC is still in the prime of his career.
Let's see how he pans out first, okay?

[andtheyreoff]

I'll give you Spectacular Bid, though.
The other two? Ehhhh.....

If Risen Star doesn't get post 1 in the Kentucky Derby he's an easy TC winner.

[TheEdge07]

If Risen Star doesn't get post 1 in the Kentucky Derby he's an easy TC winner...

Agree 100%

[Track Phantom]

Only history can paint the picture. Right now, Point Given is a class above CC. He won the Preakness, Belmont, Haskell and Travers IN A ROW. Had he won the KY DBY, we'd have him in the "best of all-time" conversations.

[mostpost]

We started out by saying California Chrome wasn't as good as Candy Boy or Hoppertunity or Wicked Strong or Danza. Then we progressed to saying he was not as good as Big Brown or Smarty Jones. Now it's Spectacuar Bid and Sunday Silence.

Does no one else see what is happening here? We would not be having these debates about an ordinary horse. No one would be making these claims and no one would feel the need to refute them.

[affirmedny]

Ehhh on the other 2..

Sunday Silence and Risen Star..You cant be serious..

Sunday Silence beat Easy Goer 3 times and won the BC Classic. CC not as accomplished yet.

[taxicab]

Just looking at horses who won 2/3 of the Crown in no particular order

Came across Point Given who after the derby turned into a beast his Belmont win was a tour de force(as Durkin would say)

PG was close to a blistering derby pace (45) and still held his own,many say it cost him the TC..

Is CC even in the same atmosphere as PG?
Nobody knows how this horse will turn out down the road.
He might not win another race.
But as of this moment there's not a 3yo alive that has got near him this year.
And BTW......
CC ran the second fastest San Felipe in the 77 year history of the race.
His Santa Anita Derby final time of 1:47.2 was quicker than Affirmed when he won the race by 8 lengths, and Sunday Silence when he won the race by 11 lengths.
And comparing him to Point Given.
CC won the San Felipe in 1:40.3.
Point Given won the San Felipe in 1:41.4.
CC won the Santa Anita Derby in a faster time than PG.
CC won the Kentucky Derby.
PG ran 5th in the Kentucky Derby.
CC won the Preakness in 1:54.4.
PG won the Preakness in 1:55.4.
So up to this moment he's a better horse than PG was at the same point of his 3yo season.
BTW part 2.
Weren't you the one who started a thread saying CC was sucking wind after his Derby workout ?
And also started a thread saying CC bounced in his easy Derby victory ?.......very astute.
There's a couple more gems in there also.
Interesting.

[Dark Horse]

We started out by saying California Chrome wasn't as good as Candy Boy or Hoppertunity or Wicked Strong or Danza. Then we progressed to saying he was not as good as Big Brown or Smarty Jones. Now it's Spectacuar Bid and Sunday Silence.

Does no one else see what is happening here? We would not be having these debates about an ordinary horse. No one would be making these claims and no one would feel the need to refute them.

Good analogy.

I have a binder with race printouts that had been sitting opened on last year's Del Mar Futurity, won by my pick Tamarando. I go over those records from time to time so I can identify mistakes. I had no memory of California Chrome being in that race, but there was his name, staring me right in the face. He ran 6th.

This horse has continued to develop at his own steady pace. Where more promising two years olds peaked early he has continued to get better and better. We will only be able to determine how good he is, historically, when that curve starts to level off. For now the sky is the limit.

[TheEdge07]

Nobody knows how this horse will turn out down the road.
He might not win another race.
But as of this moment there's not a 3yo alive that has got near him this year.
And BTW......
CC ran the second fastest San Felipe in the 77 year history of the race.
His Santa Anita Derby final time of 1:47.2 was quicker than Affirmed when he won the race by 8 lengths, and Sunday Silence when he won the race by 11 lengths.
And comparing him to Point Given.
CC won the San Felipe in 1:40.3.
Point Given won the San Felipe in 1:41.4.
CC won the Santa Anita Derby in a faster time than PG.
CC won the Kentucky Derby.
PG ran 5th in the Kentucky Derby.
CC won the Preakness in 1:54.4.
PG won the Preakness in 1:55.4.
So up to this moment he's a better horse than PG was at the same point of his 3yo season.
BTW part 2.
Weren't you the one who started a thread saying CC was sucking wind after his Derby workout ?
And also started a thread saying CC bounced in his easy Derby victory ?.......very astute.
There's a couple more gems in there also.
Interesting.

A."Sucking wind thread" was referring to what Mike Welschs article on how CC didnt look good arriving at CD and Matt Bernier cooments on what he overheard backstretch.
B."Bounce" thread was referring to what Jonathan Stetint article on horses winning but still regressing.
C.read A/B

And lastly to compare times 32 years apart is just plain stupid.

The eye test is pretty clear..,a fanatic could twist things around..

BTW MONARCHOS RAN ONE OF THE FASTEST DERBYS EVER ARE YOU READY TO COMPARE HIM TO BIG RED?

YEP VERY ASTUTE.

[depalma113]

California Chrome separated form the other horses in the Santa Anita Derby in 5.3 seconds (sixteenth of a mile move after being asked). He followed it up by going just over 6 seconds in the Derby going into a 20 to 30 mph headwind. That type of move is what the truly greats of this sport possess.

California Chrome's accomplishments will catch up with his superior talent with the more races he enters.

[Track Phantom]

Good analogy.

I have a binder with race printouts that had been sitting opened on last year's Del Mar Futurity, won by my pick Tamarando. I go over those records from time to time so I can identify mistakes. I had no memory of California Chrome being in that race, but there was his name, staring me right in the face. He ran 6th.

This horse has continued to develop at his own steady pace. Where more promising two years olds peaked early he has continued to get better and better. We will only be able to determine how good he is, historically, when that curve starts to level off. For now the sky is the limit.

I bet California Chrome in that race. Watch the replay. He had a BRUTAL trip and was flying late before being stopped. Might have been best that day.

[Boris]

I think this is a good thread for comparisons. Not so much to what they have done, but to what their Belmont races "could" look like. I've gambled on the first two legs of the Crown that some horse would push CC through the first half of the race to neutralize his kick. It looks like there are no connections willing to try, or more likely, capable of doing so. Ria's owner had the right idea, but in no way had the horse. 6F spilit in 1:11.80 at CD and 1:11.06 at PIM. Point Given's Derby went in 1:09.25 and 1:11.86 at PIM.

With 12 seconds more running, it's possible Commanding Curve could have caught him. I'm coming around to the idea that the tank wasn't emptied that day. With 18 more seconds, I doubt Ride On Curlin would have caught him. Maybe General A-Rod without the hard check and the additional stretch.

Bottom line for me is if there is nothing looking like it will push him under 1:11, CC can only beat himself. Instant reply of this:

KtmWIWTh9bw

[Tall One]

Bid far and way, but (and slightly biased) I'll put Alysheba in front of Risen Star.

[PaceAdvantage]

We started out by saying California Chrome wasn't as good as Candy Boy or Hoppertunity or Wicked Strong or Danza. Then we progressed to saying he was not as good as Big Brown or Smarty Jones. Now it's Spectacuar Bid and Sunday Silence.

Does no one else see what is happening here? We would not be having these debates about an ordinary horse. No one would be making these claims and no one would feel the need to refute them.I see what''s happening. People tend to lose objectivity whenever a west coast horse goes on a winning streak.

[Valuist]

Just looking at horses who won 2/3 of the Crown in no particular order

Came across Point Given who after the derby turned into a beast his Belmont win was a tour de force(as Durkin would say)

PG was close to a blistering derby pace (45) and still held his own,many say it cost him the TC..

Is CC even in the same atmosphere as PG?

The 2001 crop of 3 year olds was much stronger than this group.

[TheEdge07]

I see what''s happening. People tend to lose objectivity whenever a west coast horse goes on a winning streak.

Oh God yes,,

Fans(tics) are comparing times run by Affirmed 30 years ago:bang: .The other says he will take CC over Silence and Star and he gives a SLIGHT edge to the Bid(top ten all time).:bang: :bang:
Others are saying he hasnt hit all gears..Gotta love the fans..

[Valuist]

We started out by saying California Chrome wasn't as good as Candy Boy or Hoppertunity or Wicked Strong or Danza. Then we progressed to saying he was not as good as Big Brown or Smarty Jones. Now it's Spectacuar Bid and Sunday Silence.

Does no one else see what is happening here? We would not be having these debates about an ordinary horse. No one would be making these claims and no one would feel the need to refute them.

He's still not as good as Big Brown or Smarty Jones. Let's not even go anywhere near talk of Bid or Sunday Silence.

[taxicab]

A."Sucking wind thread" was referring to what Mike Welschs article on how CC didnt look good arriving at CD and Matt Bernier cooments on what he overheard backstretch.
B."Bounce" thread was referring to what Jonathan Stetint article on horses winning but still regressing.
C.read A/B

And lastly to compare times 32 years apart is just plain stupid.

The eye test is pretty clear..,a fanatic could twist things around..

BTW MONARCHOS RAN ONE OF THE FASTEST DERBYS EVER ARE YOU READY TO COMPARE HIM TO BIG RED?

YEP VERY ASTUTE.

This is a message board,when you start a thread with a question people are going to respond with an opinion.
You were very clever the way you phrased your question,comparing a horse(and others later on in the thread ) whose career has already been completed to a horse who hasn't had a chance to run into June of his 3yo season.
Of course the horses you mentioned are going to look better than a horse who's still in the first half of his 3yo racing season........nice try Einstein.
That being said, YOU asked for comparisons to PG.
So I used common races in their racing history (due to the fact that they both competed in many of the same races).
Don't ask a question and then cry about the answer when somebody has a valid,factual response.
Newsflash genius: Santa Anita has always played fast. It was a fast track when Affirmed/Sunday Silence ran,and it's a fast track now.
The time comparisons hold water.
Oh yeah.....you're math skills are atrocious, 32 years ago? :lol:
Here's your "Sucking wind thread".
Apparently many sharp PA members weren't buying what you were selling.
Please note messages 4-5-6-7-10-15-16-20-23-25.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113201

I have one word to describe YOUR (not Jonathan Stetint ) "Bounce" thread....."veiled".
You are imagining things if your eye test shows anything but a horse dominating the field in the Kentucky Derby( how many lengths was he up again at the 1/8th pole ? ).
"Fanatic" ?
All I ever present are facts when I'm referencing CC........his sparkling resume makes it easy.
Please stop making up things as you go along, I never mentioned Monarchos or Secretariat........try to pay attention and stay on point please. :rolleyes:
And why did you use all Caps for the stupidest thing you wrote on the thread ? :D

[tucker6]

He's still not as good as Big Brown or Smarty Jones. Let's not even go anywhere near talk of Bid or Sunday Silence.
I think he's every bit as good as BB and SJ.

[luisbe]

As of the Preakness California Chrome has won eight of twelve races.
Point Given had won six of ten.

As a three year old-up to the Preakness-Point Given won the Grade two San Felipe and the Grade one Santa Anita Derby and Preakness.

As a three year old-up to the Preakness-California Chrome won the Grade Two San Felipe; and the Grade one Santa Anita Derby, Preakness and Kentucky Derby.

California Chrome had a faster time by at least two lengths in the the three races won by both horses. Those would be the San Felipe, the Santa Anita Derby, and the Preakness.

Now, none of this proves California Chrome is the better horse, but it makes a strong case-in my opinion.

Big Brown was heading to Belmont undefeated at this point in its campaign.
CC could prove better, let's time decide.

[Dark Horse]

I bet California Chrome in that race. Watch the replay. He had a BRUTAL trip and was flying late before being stopped. Might have been best that day.

It was closer than I remembered, and CC did have a bad trip. I'm sticking with my Tamarando pick, though. ;)

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/race/USA/DMR/2013/9/4/8/del-mar-futurity-gr-i

[TheEdge07]

This is a message board,when you start a thread with a question people are going to respond with an opinion.
You were very clever the way you phrased your question,comparing a horse(and others later on in the thread ) whose career has/have already been completed to a horse who hasn't had a chance to run into June of his 3yo season.
Of course the horses you mentioned are going to look better than a horse who's still in the first half of his 3yo racing season........nice try Einstein.
That being said, YOU asked for comparisons to PG.
So I used common races in their racing history (due to the fact that they both competed in many of the same races).
Don't ask a question and then cry about the answer when somebody has a valid,factual response.
Newsflash genius: Santa Anita has always played fast. It was a fast track when Affirmed/Sunday Silence ran,and it's a fast track now.
The time comparisons hold water.
Oh yeah.....you're math skills are atrocious, 32 years ago? :lol:
Here's your "Sucking wind thread".
Apparently many sharp PA members weren't buying what you were selling.
Please note messages 4-5-6-7-10-15-16-20-23-25.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113201

I have one word to describe YOUR (not Jonathan Stetint ) "Bounce" thread....."veiled".
You are imagining things if your eye test shows anything but a horse dominating the field in the Kentucky Derby( how many lengths was he up again at the 1/8th pole ? ).
"Fanatic" ?
All I ever present are facts when I'm referencing CC........his sparkling resume makes it easy.
Please stop making up things as you go along, I never mentioned Monarchos or Secretariat........try to pay attention and stay on point please. :rolleyes:
And why did you use all Caps for the stupidest thing you wrote on the thread ? :D

Heres Welsch comments before the derby..along with Migs..
California Chrome was on the track on Wednesday, and the Daily Racing Form’s clocker Mike Welsch (http://www.drf.com/events/kentucky-derby-workouts-churchill-downs) wasn’t particularly impressed. “I gotta tell you, he is not the most impressive horse to watch when he gallops. He was not striding very smooth….Out in Southern California, he might not have had many opportunities, if any at all, to set foot on a wet racetrack like we had this morning. But it’s something you have to be concerned about.”

Richard Migliore, on HRTV’s Pursuit of the Crown, expressed similar concerns. “I really didn’t like how he carried his tail even.” Ok, that’s probably “too much information.” Both gentlemen were quick to point out that they don’t have a frame of reference as to how the colt generally trains. “It’s what’s out of character for a particular horse, and she [HRTV's Zoe Cadman] says he looks much better going fast.” Which is the idea. Stay tuned for more if and when he trains faster over a fast track.

CC ran the second fastest San Felipe in the 77 year history of the race.
His Santa Anita Derby final time of 1:47.2 was quicker than Affirmed when he won the race by 8 lengths, and Sunday Silence when he won the race by 11 lengths.


The above statement is madness
You live in the West coast and your a fanatic of CC.

So your saying the track back when Affirmed/SS ran is the same as when CC ran..You cant be serious..Madness..?

[taxicab]

Heres Welsch comments before the derby..along with Migs..
California Chrome was on the track on Wednesday, and the Daily Racing Form’s clocker Mike Welsch (http://www.drf.com/events/kentucky-derby-workouts-churchill-downs) wasn’t particularly impressed. “I gotta tell you, he is not the most impressive horse to watch when he gallops. He was not striding very smooth….Out in Southern California, he might not have had many opportunities, if any at all, to set foot on a wet racetrack like we had this morning. But it’s something you have to be concerned about.”

Richard Migliore, on HRTV’s Pursuit of the Crown, expressed similar concerns. “I really didn’t like how he carried his tail even.” Ok, that’s probably “too much information.” Both gentlemen were quick to point out that they don’t have a frame of reference as to how the colt generally trains. “It’s what’s out of character for a particular horse, and she [HRTV's Zoe Cadman] says he looks much better going fast.” Which is the idea. Stay tuned for more if and when he trains faster over a fast track.

CC ran the second fastest San Felipe in the 77 year history of the race.
His Santa Anita Derby final time of 1:47.2 was quicker than Affirmed when he won the race by 8 lengths, and Sunday Silence when he won the race by 11 lengths.


The above statement is madness
You live in the West coast and your a fanatic of CC.

So your saying the track back when Affirmed/SS ran is the same as when CC ran..You cant be serious..Madness..?

How very convenient of you not to mention messages 4-5-6-7-10-15-16-20-23-25 of the Sucking wind thread.
Let me refresh your memory........they called BS on you.
So were all of those PA members wrong ?
I suspect some of them knew your MO pretty well also.
My time comparisons are fact.
They show that CC is a very fast horse.
Here's an idea,why don't you call the DRF and have them change around the San Felipe/Santa Anita Derby times to suit your means.
And a special thanks for telling me where I live and what I am.....your wisdom has always proven to be an inspiration to everyone here at Pace Advantage. :rolleyes:
BTW Edge.....I wouldn't use the word "Madness" too loosely......Glass houses and all that. :eek:

[Dark Horse]

A couple of east coasters here that can't help themselves. Very large grain of salt. Everybody else is cool.

[Valuist]

Bid far and way, but (and slightly biased) I'll put Alysheba in front of Risen Star.

I wouldn't, at least during the Triple Crown races. Alysheba was beaten over 15 lengths in the Belmont. Risen Star had a horribly wide trip in the Derby, and was beaten about a length and a half by loose on the lead Winning Colors. He won the Preakness by open lengths and in the Belmont buried the field by a margin similar to what Bet Twice did to Alysheba.

[PaceAdvantage]

A couple of east coasters here that can't help themselves.You have no clue.

I doubt very much that there is anyone on this entire board (who isn't goofing with us to begin with) that automatically discounts a horse simply because of where they primarily race or where their connections hail from.

But if you want to continue believing stuff like that, hey, nobody can stop you. Enjoy.

[Cratos]

If Risen Star doesn't get post 1 in the Kentucky Derby he's an easy TC winner.

I agree also

[Dark Horse]

You have no clue.

I doubt very much that there is anyone on this entire board (who isn't goofing with us to begin with) that automatically discounts a horse simply because of where they primarily race or where their connections hail from.

But if you want to continue believing stuff like that, hey, nobody can stop you. Enjoy.

Maybe I enjoy stepping on your east coast toes, because you keep squealing so beautifully.

[Tall One]

I wouldn't, at least during the Triple Crown races. Alysheba was beaten over 15 lengths in the Belmont. Risen Star had a horribly wide trip in the Derby, and was beaten about a length and a half by loose on the lead Winning Colors. He won the Preakness by open lengths and in the Belmont buried the field by a margin similar to what Bet Twice did to Alysheba.


Good points.

I considered Alysheba's Derby, where he almost went down, and Preakness as well that were both strong TC performances against a solid opponent and a good group of 3yo's actually both RS and Alysheba did.

Bet Twice was a hard hitting colt, and yes he smoked Alysheba in the Belmont, but McCarron still blames himself for his ride that day.

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe I enjoy stepping on your east coast toes, because you keep squealing so beautifully.That's the problem with a lot of you (and by you, I mean those who post just to stir the pot)...but thanks for admitting to such productive and meaningful contributions to the board...

Just remember though....sometimes I do more than squeal if I feel the BS is messing up the board way too much...

[Dark Horse]

That's the problem with a lot of you (and by you, I mean those who post just to stir the pot)...but thanks for admitting to such productive and meaningful contributions to the board...

Just remember though....sometimes I do more than squeal if I feel the BS is messing up the board way too much...

You might want to think about putting some others in charge of moderating this place. I would guestimate this forum could be ten times more fun without your overbearing negativity.

[PaceAdvantage]

You might want to think about putting some others in charge of moderating this place. I would guestimate this forum could be ten times more fun without your overbearing negativity.I've been doing this for almost 14 years and there are still people here...go figure.

Overbearing negativity? OK, I'll bite. Serious question - name some of this overbearing negativity.

I guess we'll start with the fact that I thought California Chrome wasn't worth a bet in the Derby or Preakness...oh no.

Or the fact that I think people are being a tad ridiculous in thinking photos are fixed (and in real time and while televised no less), or that the track's first concern should be to get the health status of a jockey out to the public.

Oh wait, none of those things are really negative at all, but that's a couple of the topics I've been mired in as of late.

So go ahead. The floor is yours...detail a bit of the "overbearing negativity" for us.

I think just about the only thing you could mention with any certitude would be my current negative performance in posting picks with Mad Scientist, but I gather that's NOT what you're referring to...so please...school us all on my behavior.

[Billnewman]

i remember watching point givens santa anita derby and thought it was the best looking prep race id seen ever. He looked like a machine running down the lane. I thought he was a lock in the derby. but i bet against CC in the derby. I was made a believer after the derby. Was holding my breath when ride on Curlin made a run at him. But Espinosa said the race was over at the top of the lane. If point given could be magically reincarnated exiting his preakness and the two were entered in the Belmont it would be a race for the ages. Forget Smarty jones and sunday silence throw in Holy Bull exiting his Met Mile and i doubt CC would be the favorite. I would bet Point Given. But wouldn't be surprised unless one of the three didnt win

[statik27]

Maybe I enjoy stepping on your east coast toes, because you keep squealing so beautifully.

I'm a member who rarely posts, it's probably been a few years even, but I've got to come to Pace's defense. I'm a California guy, I come from the same town that produced Decidedly, Hill Rise, J.O. Tobin, even wishing well the dam of Sunday Silence...I love California racing...but Pace is one of my favorite horse racing guys, he loves racing and it's not about bias with him. He just has a low tolerance for BS.

I'm rooting for CC, not because he's from my home state, but because I'm 34 years old and I have no Triple Crown winner in my life time. No silly comparisons from me, he ain't Secretariat, but he might be Omaha, or Assault. Only time will tell.

[TheEdge07]

End of this arguement...CC isnt in the same atmosphere..That field couldnt beat PG with a head start..

[taxicab]

End of this arguement...CC isnt in the same atmosphere..That field couldnt beat PG with a head start..

I didn't realize California Chrome had retired.....

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Given the injury he suffered today, the more pertinent question might be is California Chrome as good as Charismatic?

[Vinnie]

End of this arguement...CC isnt in the same atmosphere..That field couldnt beat PG with a head start..

Surely you jest with your comment above? CC not in the same atmosphere as Point Given. Really? He ran a faster Preakness than Point Given and even in prior races such as the San Felipe he ran over a second faster than Point Given while literally geared down for the last 70 yards or better. He ran a faster Santa Anita Derby than Point Given as well. Today, for whatever reason, he simply didn't fire. That is the way it goes. The horse had a string of six consecutive excellent races up until today's Belmont Stakes where he just wasn't able to run his regular race for whatever reason.

[TheEdge07]

You pay attention to the teletimer...ill pay attention to the eye test..

[EMD4ME]

You pay attention to the teletimer...ill pay attention to the eye test..

Agreed....