Nasal strip....should they allow CC to use it?

[horses4courses]

By all accounts, Art Sherman can make a formal request to the NY stewards for the nasal strip to be permitted. Apparently, he will do that this week.

Do you think the NY stewards should allow it?

[Mr_Ed]

All Chromee's should wear them to Belmont park.

[Smarty Cide]

All Chromee's should wear them to Belmont park.


that genius!!!


everyone should be rocking a nasal strip belmont day

[onefast99]

that genius!!!


everyone should be rocking a nasal strip belmont day
Thay are available in the silk colors of CC. Aisle 4 at CVS!

[andtheyreoff]

Of course. It's a ridiculous rule that they should change, and having California Chrome not run would cost NYRA millions, not to mention tons of fan goodwill.

[TMQ]

They should not let him use the nasal strips. And he will run either way. No way they decide not to run because of some nasal strip.

[Shelby]

I vote yes.

[Grits]

I hope this is settled; that it doesn't drag on for days.

[Shelby]

I hope this is settled; that it doesn't drag on for days.
Me too. Stewards need to make a ruling right now. I DO think that they would run CC anyway, though…..

[johnhannibalsmith]

If the standard has in fact been set and adhered to consistently, then no, they should not. Ordinarily when stewards fail to follow their own regulations and rules with consistency, we get a ten page thread berating them for it.

Maybe we can get an expedited one of those emergency rules if it is the case that there is an obvious precedent out of the stews office to disallow their use and take their discretion out of the equation. That seems like the most tedious and maddening way to go about it, but it also seems likely that it would be the best way to handle it.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The stewards should wait - the intrigue is great!

[horses4courses]

If the NY stewards have the discretionary powers to allow the nasal strip,
I think they should. This TC drought has gone on too long.

If CC loses the Belmont without wearing a nasal strip, it's just another black eye for racing. It's not the rule itself, per se, but the lack of consistency between the sport's governing bodies within the US. It's a nightmare - we all know it.

There are those who will say "rules are rules". I can respect that, too.
I would ask this question, though, to those who take that stance.
50 years from now, do you really think that anyone will have an asterisk next to the 2014 Triple Crown winner?

2014 California Chrome* (won with the aid of nasal strips)

I very much doubt it.

[MutuelClerk]

I want this horse to win the Triple Crown, and plan on making my first visit to Belmont Park if he races. At the same time I hope Sherman sticks to his guns and calls their bluff ( not sure he will). So much money on the line the NYRA has to relent. Attendance would drop from 110,000 to 60,000? Not to mention all the wagering action across the country. It will be interesting to see who blinks first.

[horses4courses]

Love him, or hate him, he does get the scoop.

Jerry Bossert ‏@JBossertNYDN 5m
California Chrome's connections have officially applied for a request to wear the nasal strip. The stewards are considering it. @TheNYRA

[iceknight]

well this was there in the bloodhorse article..

"I'll tell you one thing about these owners: They're funny about stuff like that," Art Sherman said with a laugh. "Perry might say, 'Well, he's done enough, let's go to the Los Alamitos Derby (gr. II on July 5).' I've hardly ever run any horses with a nasal strip except him. We don't want to change it if we don't have to."

Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/85161/can-chrome-wear-nasal-strip-in-belmont#ixzz326qhMnM0


Is he just fooling around or judging by their group name "DAP", might they just buck conventional wisdom and do something like that? We have had owners skip the Derby way back in the past.. and we have had them run horses in some New Jersey stakes race (dont remember years or names right now...)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Spend A Buck is the face of Jersey Derby defection and sure that's who you're thinking of there.

They did it for the money - at the time it was I think the biggest pot they could aim for, a bonus worth over two million or something since they won the other races in the series (Cherry Hill and something else, I believe).

Obviously winning the Belmont will make the horse worth significantly more than he is now and probably make the sums that they allegedly declined as a sale price seem weak.

I think this guy likes to "prove people wrong" and feel vindicated. Between the glory of winning a triple crown, turning down the sale offer, persistence skepticism about the colt's stamina... I don't think there is a chance in hell this horse skips unless he's busted up good.

[dartman51]

I said early on, that if he won the Derby, I would pull for him to win the TC. But, I don't believe they should change the rules just for him. Sounds like Nascar, changing rules in the middle of the season, because one brand of car is winning too much. It's bovine scatology. Sounds like they have a built in excuse, if they run without it and lose. Yes, the sport needs a TC winner, but what kind of message are you sending to the NEW fans that you are trying to win over. If this were just another stakes race, it still wouldn't be right, but wouldn't be as big of a deal because it wouldn't get the national attention.

[horses4courses]

I said early on, that if he won the Derby, I would pull for him to win the TC. But, I don't believe they should change the rules just for him. Sounds like Nascar, changing rules in the middle of the season, because one brand of car is winning too much. It's bovine scatology. Sounds like they have a built in excuse, if they run without it and lose. Yes, the sport needs a TC winner, but what kind of message are you sending to the NEW fans that you are trying to win over. If this were just another stakes race, it still wouldn't be right, but wouldn't be as big of a deal because it wouldn't get the national attention.

According to PA in another thread, nasal strips are not banned in NY.
So, they wouldn't be changing any rules.
I guess their use is dealt with case by case.

I'll Have Another would probably have been able to use them, then,
had Doug O'Neill realized in time and applied to use them.

[johnhannibalsmith]

According to PA in another thread, nasal strips are not banned in NY.
So, they wouldn't be changing any rules.
I guess their use is dealt with case by case.

I'll Have Another would probably have been able to use them, then,
had Doug O'Neill realized in time and applied to use them.

I don't understand one tiny bit why the stewards would need to evaluate the use of nasal strips on a case by case basis. They (not picking on them solely) don't even concern themselves with distinguishing which horses actually and truly need Lasix. What could possibly tip the scales in favor of one petitioner over another that would be rooted solely in merit?

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it makes zero sense. Their explanations (that I've read from IHA episode) seem preclude this whole case-by-case notion (they might fall off, etc.). The equipment won't be noted anywhere except perhaps a footer in the official program whether they approve it or not. There wouldn't seem to be any analysis of a petitioner's request that would lead one to believe that they won't fall off.

Allow them or don't and reflect it in code. Discretion in this case makes very little to no sense to me, but maybe someone who's a bit more intimate with whatever the beef is in general that actually would compel a need for discretion can line me out.

[Some_One]

If Nasal strips make no difference, then why the outcry?
If Nasal strips do make a difference, shouldn't it be noted/regulated?

When did CC start racing with nasal strips?

[PaceAdvantage]

According to PA in another thread, nasal strips are not banned in NY.
So, they wouldn't be changing any rules.
I guess their use is dealt with case by case.

I'll Have Another would probably have been able to use them, then,
had Doug O'Neill realized in time and applied to use them.From everything I've read today, the stewards ruled before IHA scratched out that he would not be able to use the nasal strip.

My faulty memory also seems to recall this as well.

[BlinkersOn]

These owners aren't playing games. When they say that CC won't run in the Belmont without the nasal strip, they mean it. It's now in the hands of the stewards to make the final decision. I don't think NY wants to lose all the money they are going to lose if they don't allow the nasal strips. Heck, let all the horses wear them. They have no medication in them. They might just start banning leg bandages too. That makes just about as much sense. O'Neill didn't know he could request the use of the nasal strip, and he didn't ask. It doesn't really matter, as his horse was in the detention barn for good reason. O'Neill had a horrible reputation for drug violations, and I've always thought that IHA was being injected with something in his leg...no coincidence that he hurt his leg right before the race and scratched.

I think Belmont wants the bucks, so I'm thinking they are going to allow the strip, or I really think CC won't run. These owners are not going to back down, and kudos to the owner for giving hell to Churchill over the way they were treated, and our veterans, and Turcott. I'm glad he had a platform to get the message across, and maybe Churchill will shape up. It's the reason that Martin didn't show up for the Preakness.

OK, that's my mini rant...

[KingChas]

They were definitely denied in 2012.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/horseracing/2014/05/18/california-chrome-nasal-strips-belmont-stakes-triple-crown/9245559/

"Before California Chrome, I'll Have Another was the last horse to win the Derby and Preakness, in 2012. He had worn nasal strips, but his handlers were told he couldn't wear them in the Belmont Stakes. They were preparing to do so until I'll Have Another was scratched with a leg injury the day before the race."

Kentucky says same as wearing bandages in their state.

"Kentucky's senior state steward, Barbara Borden, said the state considers nasal strips unregulated equipment, such as bandages on horses' legs during races. She told The (Louisville) Courier-Journal that nasal strips originally required permission to be put on or taken off a horse, same as with blinkers, but that hasn't been the policy for years."

[Tom]

If Nasal strips make no difference, then why the outcry?
If Nasal strips do make a difference, shouldn't it be noted/regulated?

When did CC start racing with nasal strips?

Of course they make a difference.
They allow AIR into the horse's lungs.
Should we ban hay as well? Hay makes a difference.


Harness horse use it in NY.
End of story.
Stupidity rules.

[Dark Horse]

Of course they make a difference.
They allow AIR into the horse's lungs.
Should we ban hay as well? Hay makes a difference.


Harness horse use it in NY.
End of story.
Stupidity rules.


They were a fad once.

If they made a difference, wouldn't every horse be using them?

[Secondbest]

Looks like the stewards will rule by tuesday

[Clocker]

If they made a difference, wouldn't every horse be using them?

No. Some people find it makes them sleep better or stop snoring. For other people, it does nothing.

For some horses it helps breathing or prevents nasal bleeding, for others it does nothing.

[Grits]

Looks like the stewards will rule by tuesday

Thank heaven....this'll be over.:lol:

[mannyberrios]

I voted no. I would like to see NYRA call their bluff! They were the first to bring it up, it wasn't NYRA

[horses4courses]

Shades of Rodney Dangerfield:

Peter Berry ‏@peterberry57 1h
If Chromie can't wear a nasal strip in the Belmont can we at least make the others wear nasal sponges.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More

Peter Berry ‏@peterberry57 1h
@MsVFAB - He can run with a nasal strip, blue tail and Black Caviar Lycra suit if he wants. Just send him our way.
View conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More

Peter Berry ‏@peterberry57 1h
If NYRA won't let Chromie run in a nasal strip in the Belmont, Mountaineer will make one the size of the state flag for him in the WV Derby.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More

[horses4courses]

I don't understand one tiny bit why the stewards would need to evaluate the use of nasal strips on a case by case basis. They (not picking on them solely) don't even concern themselves with distinguishing which horses actually and truly need Lasix. What could possibly tip the scales in favor of one petitioner over another that would be rooted solely in merit?

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it makes zero sense. Their explanations (that I've read from IHA episode) seem preclude this whole case-by-case notion (they might fall off, etc.). The equipment won't be noted anywhere except perhaps a footer in the official program whether they approve it or not. There wouldn't seem to be any analysis of a petitioner's request that would lead one to believe that they won't fall off.

Allow them or don't and reflect it in code. Discretion in this case makes very little to no sense to me, but maybe someone who's a bit more intimate with whatever the beef is in general that actually would compel a need for discretion can line me out.

I see where you're coming from, and respect your opinion.

Hypothetical situation:
You manage the biggest rock band in the world - a modern day Beatles.
New York is hosting potentially the greatest concert ever for your band to play at -
an extravagant lollapalooza that has MSG, The Meadowlands, and Carnegie Hall all rolled into one.
It's been 36 years in the making, and the entertainment business hasn't had anything to rival this in all that time.

There's one catch, though.
Although they're allowed to play it everywhere else, NY cannot allow your band to play the song "Yesterday".

My question is this.
Who is the bigger player here?
The talented and popular act, or those who seek to promote them?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bn5Tk7zIYAAOjvc.jpg

[horses4courses]

If you use twitter, check out @nasalstrip
This whole situation is so bizarre, you have to laugh.

Retweeted by carl o' callaghan
Nasal Strip ‏@NasalStrip 2h
You can buy me for $10, but I could end up costing @TheNYRA millions. That's nothing to sneeze at! @CalChrome #TripleCrown
Expand Reply Retweeted Favorite More

[JustRalph]

Frank Stronach needs to create a new Stakes Race for CC. Offer 2 million purse and bait them back to Santa Anita the same weekend as the Belmont

[horses4courses]

Quote from brisnet.com:

Much like he did after the Derby, Sherman, 77, said he will return to his California home Monday to tend to his stable based at Los Alamitos, while his son and assistant trainer, Alan, manages California Chrome for the next two weeks. Art Sherman said he expects to travel to New York about a week before the Belmont Stakes.

"I've always loved New York; of course, I was born in Brooklyn," he said. "It's like coming back. I won't know how the horse will like it until we get to training him over it, but he's run at five different tracks already, so I don't think (he) has to take his track with him."

[The WindfallAngler]

Of course. It's a ridiculous rule that they should change, and having California Chrome not run would cost NYRA millions, not to mention tons of fan goodwill.
I dunno.
Judging by a tide of prolonged (and at times, almost unreasoning) animosity that is evident in (easily) half of those who post here, I'm just not seeing this "fan goodwill" whereof you speak, still less tons of it--to be subtracted.

And I can scarcely credit the idea of a large turnout--on Belmont Stakes day, thrilling to the spectacle of CC becoming Triple Crown champion. ..whether the colt is permitted to breathe right, or no.

A surly mob, more like. Caped in sartorial splendor, but signalling thumbs-down: THAT I am able to envision.

For no racer Christened "CALIFORNIA CHROME" could EVER win fans in New York.

I mean, if you didn't like Seabiscuit, Sunday Silence, and Affirmed, you're going to HATE this guy.

[PaceAdvantage]

I dunno.
Judging by a tide of prolonged (and at times, almost unreasoning) animosity that is evident in (easily) half of those who post here, I'm just not seeing this "fan goodwill" whereof you speak, still less tons of it--to be subtracted.

And I can scarcely credit the idea of a large turnout--on Belmont Stakes day, thrilling to the spectacle of CC becoming Triple Crown champion. ..whether the colt is permitted to breathe right, or no.

A surly mob, more like. Caped in sartorial splendor, but signalling thumbs-down: THAT I am able to envision.

For no racer Christened "CALIFORNIA CHROME" could EVER win fans in New York.

I mean, if you didn't like Seabiscuit, Sunday Silence, and Affirmed, you're going to HATE this guy.Where the hell do people come up with such utter nonsense.

Do you people actually read what you write before you hit the post button?

And for the record, I was the BIGGEST Sunday Silence fan you'll ever see...and I've lived in New York almost all of my life, love NY racing...but when it comes to horses, if they make an impression on me, I love them, no matter where they are from or what their bloodlines are...

I suspect almost all other horseplayers in NY are the same.

And the majority of the crowd that will be at Belmont, and I know you know this, WILL NOT BE hardcore horseplayers, and definitely WILL NOT CARE that the horse is a California horse...

I mean, seriously...where do you come up with these ideas? I know you're not the only one to have them, which makes it even more scary...

NO BETTER evidence do you need, then the fact that they BOOED Marylou Whitney and someone even threw a BEER in her direction after Mine That Bird upset Smarty Jones. Smarty Jones...definitely NOT a NY horse...and Marylou Whitney...the WHITNEYS...definitely a BLUE BLOOD fixture in NY racing...

Someone...PLEASE...stop this nonsense posting!!! :lol: :lol:

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
Hypothetical situation:
You manage the biggest rock band in the world - a modern day Beatles.
New York is hosting potentially the greatest concert ever for your band to play at -
an extravagant lollapalooza that has MSG, The Meadowlands, and Carnegie Hall all rolled into one.
It's been 36 years in the making, and the entertainment business hasn't had anything to rival this in all that time.

There's one catch, though.
Although they're allowed to play it everywhere else, NY cannot allow your band to play the song "Yesterday".

My question is this.
Who is the bigger player here?
The talented and popular act, or those who seek to promote them?
...

If I knew before anyone else in the world that I had a band that would tear the shit out of New York's biggest stage and it would be huge for everyone, I'd be on the phone with the Governor's office and Senate and the Assembly, looking for whoever I needed to see with power and influence, trying to accomplish the right goal in the right manner long before we had posed for the promotional photo.


I mean, I'm trying, but I find the analogy quite tough to make work. My position doesn't change on the premise and the particulars are rather different.


Let me throw the analogy back at you (and maybe for the benefit of others that may have nodded in approval at the idea of crushing a special day in order to sing a familiar refrain)...



Hypothetical situation:

You manage the fastest two-year-old colt in the world - a modern day Secretariat.

New York is hosting potentially the greatest race you'll ever run in - The Breeder's Cup Juvenile.

It's been about 30 years in the making I think, and the racing industry hasn't had anything to rival this in all that time.

There's one catch, though.

Although you're allowed to use it in every other race, Breeder's Cup Ltd. cannot allow your superstar to run on Lasix for the first time in his nine race career (he's an iron horse that runs in every race worth a shit on top of everything else... :D ...)

My question is this.

Who is the bigger player here?
The talented and popular act, or those who seek to regulate them.




I don't know what you thought of the real-life scenario that played out with Repole, Hollendorfer (I think), Darley, and a bunch of other guys and gals that I can't even remember now. But, I remember they didn't get a lot of sympathy from most here when they met the most of the conditions of your analogy and pressured them to drop the ban. The opposition thought the rule was unfair and punitive. They vowed not to enter. They won.

Because the talented act got his way over the promoter.

And this reality from day to day and year to year in medication policies in general, that which causes cries for merging the two most inept entities around - federal regulators and track operators - and causes PETA videos - and declining handle, starts, and whatever else we read about everyday in the forum a couple above this -- this is what I constantly hear is the worst aspect of the racing... just ask Goren...

Obviously, this has more to do with your analogy and showing why I just struggled with it than it does trying to draw any parallel to the current situation (other than passive aggressive use of your hypothetical to maybe make a point that like stewards, a lot of people's perceptions and standards seem to operate on a case by case basis). I just think you have to be careful endorsing that regulators flip and flop around to appease when they have a big pile of leverage crushing their backs against the wall. It has historically been the bane of our local group of serious bettors and fans.

[JustRalph]

On what level at Belmont does "sartorial splendor" kick in? I've been, but must have missed that part. :lol:

I'm the the last guy who should be judging sartorial anything :lol:

[Dark Horse]

Frank Stronach needs to create a new Stakes Race for CC. Offer 2 million purse and bait them back to Santa Anita the same weekend as the Belmont

Good idea. Would love to see the third TC race change places each year, so it would be a real celebration for that place. The Derby and Preakness are a great tradition, but there are better places than Belmont.

[The WindfallAngler]

I mean, seriously...where do you come up with these ideas?

Schenectady.


Someone...PLEASE...stop this nonsense posting!!! :lol: :lol:

Oh, there is a free-floating hostility to this East-coast provincialism, alright. This forum is become vastly less appealing in recent weeks. Handicappers and horse bettors in whom I earlier perceived a shared sense of wonder, I now turn a yellow eye, yourself included. (Like you care!) But be that as it may.

If I dramatize, it is to *stir the pot* and place emphasis. Can't think why you didn't pick up on this. :rolleyes:

[ultracapper]

PA, Birdstone beat Smarty Jones....but we get your point.

Look everybody, nobody at the NYRA is saying he can't wear the nasal strip, and there is no written rule he can't wear it. The NYRA just doesn't consider it "standard" equipment, or however they worded it in their rule. Exceptions can be made upon requests. I would bet the odds are about 1/5 that he'll be allowed to wear it. Just can't see them saying no after a formal request is made for a nasal strip. It's not like they're asking if Espinoza can carry an elephant rifle with him.

[JustRalph]

Good idea. Would love to see the third TC race change places each year, so it would be a real celebration for that place. The Derby and Preakness are a great tradition, but there are better places than Belmont.

I was actually being kind of tongue and cheek. Just a mischievous kind of dig at my NY friends. None took the bait, they know me too well I guess.

I have to tell you, after visiting Belmont it goes right to the top of one of my Fav tracks just because of the whole size and attitude of the place. When I say attitude I mean Belmont is a hardcore racing kind of place. Not a social atmosphere as much as other places. Belmont screams it's all about racing. From the sheer size to the multi levels in the grandstand. I have very fond memories from a few years back. Good company and great treatment by some of our board members.

I despise the fact that the State Government of New York has such control over racing in NY. There are lots of good people that I have met who work very hard and in spite of the government getting in their way, do a great job of putting on the show.

[Stillriledup]

Good idea. Would love to see the third TC race change places each year, so it would be a real celebration for that place. The Derby and Preakness are a great tradition, but there are better places than Belmont.

I agree with this too. Lets start a "kickstarter" fund to get a big enough race on the first Saturday in May at a track that actually cares about horse racing.

lets have a 5 million dollar grade 1 for 3 year olds called the kickstarter derby.

[upthecreek]

From everything I've read today, the stewards ruled before IHA scratched out that he would not be able to use the nasal strip.

My faulty memory also seems to recall this as well.

You are correct Just heard its the 3 same stewards that ruled on the IHA case why would they change their mind now?
I vote NO!
If he's as great as everyone thinks,then it should be a non-issue

[Smarty Cide]

its stupid if they dont allow it

[Saratoga_Mike]

Allow the nasal strip, but ban the two owners.

[KingChas]

You are correct Just heard its the 3 same stewards that ruled on the IHA case why would they change their mind now?


The decision will be made by three stewards: Stephen Lewandowski of the state gaming commission, veterinarian Ted Hill of The Jockey Club and Braulio Baeza Jr. of the New York Racing Association. Lewandowski is new to his post since the ruling on I'll Have Another. He replaced retired Carmine Donofrio this year.

[upthecreek]

Does anybody remember the days when NY didnt allow lasix? Did any owners/trainers then threaten not to run in the Belmont?

Does anybody really think they ARE NOT going to take a shot at a Triple Crown no matter the ruling?

[RacingFan1992]

Speaking of nonsense posts,

"NO BETTER evidence do you need, then the fact that they BOOED Marylou Whitney and someone even threw a BEER in her direction after Mine That Bird upset Smarty Jones. Smarty Jones...definitely NOT a NY horse...and Marylou Whitney...the WHITNEYS...definitely a BLUE BLOOD fixture in NY racing..."

That shows how good of a horse Mine That Bird was. He beat horse before he was even born:rolleyes:. (PS No Hard Feelings)

[highnote]

Does anybody really think they ARE NOT going to take a shot at a Triple Crown no matter the ruling?

One of Cal C's owners did not make the trip to Pimlico because of the way he and his family were treated by Churchill. They've already won the most important race -- the KY Derby -- so the horse nothing to prove.

I can see them thumbing their nasal stripped noses at NY.

[Saratoga_Mike]

One of Cal C's owners did not make the trip to Pimlico because of the way he and his family were treated by Churchill. They've already won the most important race -- the KY Derby -- so the horse nothing to prove.

I can see them thumbing their nasal stripped noses at NY.

What exactly did the owners of CC want from Churchill? Free luxury suites? A limo from the airport? All expenses paid? Seriously, what did they want? They won the KY Derby and the one owner said they had a bad time. Wow. I've won 25 or 30 races, mostly low-level claimers and a few allowance races, and I never had a bad time when I won (except one time when the horse injured herself in the race). How can you have a bad time winning the KY Derby? Is it time for a different hobby?

[Wiley]

Does anybody remember the days when NY didnt allow lasix? Did any owners/trainers then threaten not to run in the Belmont?

Does anybody really think they ARE NOT going to take a shot at a Triple Crown no matter the ruling?
Yes I do and it was an issue when Alysheba and Sunday Silence ran for it because they used it and could not for their Belmonts'. I think back then most everyone knew going into the TC races that New York did not allow Lasix so just assumed they would not use it if they got to the Belmont, Sherman, it sounds like, was not aware that New York has a ban on the strips so a little different, to me the strip use appears trivial compared to Lasix also.

I always liked the Lasix ban, this one should be no big deal to allow. Spend a Buck never ran in New York and while there was a ton of money available for him to run in the Jersey Derby that year, the Lasix issue was also a factor for him, per his trainer back then.

Here is a good article on Perry Martin and his background, hard working self made type from the UP Michigan, he is what's called a 'Yooper', it is a different world there kind of a "Northern Exposure" vibe to it and can see him bagging the race if he feels treated unfair. It sounds like he did not like the Derby experience for his mom who is in a wheelchair also.
http://www.freep.com/article/20140515/COL38/305150035/california-chrome-triple-crown-horse-racing-upper-peninsula

[Grits]

They've already won the most important race -- the KY Derby -- so the horse nothing to prove.

Worked out well for Orb didn't it? What a champion he was.

[KingChas]

Does anybody remember the days when NY didnt allow lasix? Did any owners/trainers then threaten not to run in the Belmont?



Summer Squall
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19900521&id=DP9NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zIsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6954,4600587

[CryingForTheHorses]

They should not let him use the nasal strips. And he will run either way. No way they decide not to run because of some nasal strip.

So tell me a reason why he shouldnt be allowed to wear it? ..A nasal strip isnt anything but a bit of tape that can be molded so the horses nostrils stay open a certain way,These strips are also used by people,If you ever noticed how Pat Day used to always wear one.Nothing illegal about them and Im stumped as to why NYRA doesnt allow them.I think he should be allowed to wear it.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Here is a good article on Perry Martin and his background, hard working self made type from the UP Michigan, he is what's called a 'Yooper', it is a different world there kind of a "Northern Exposure" vibe to it and can see him bagging the race if he feels treated unfair. It sounds like he did not like the Derby experience for his mom who is in a wheelchair also.
http://www.freep.com/article/20140515/COL38/305150035/california-chrome-triple-crown-horse-racing-upper-peninsula

Thanks for the article - I'm glad the rest of the family had a great time.

[highnote]

Worked out well for Orb didn't it? What a champion he was.


I doubt Orb cares. :D

Owned and bred by Janney and Phipps Stables. How many other champions have they produced? Having a Derby winner is probably the one feather they didn't have in their cap.

[ArlJim78]

Scott Palmer, the equine medical director for the New York State Gaming
Commission, instructed state stewards to discontinue their ban on the
4-by-6-inch adhesive patch, similar to the Breathe Right strips worn by N.F.L.
players and chronic snorers, designed to ease breathing by decreasing
upper-airway nasal resistance.

sounds like its a done deal according to the NY times. common sense prevails.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/20/sports/california-chrome-can-use-nasal-strip-in-the-belmont.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

notice that even the medical director of the state gaming commission refers to it as discontinuing the BAN.

[Grits]

I doubt Orb cares. :D

Owned and bred by Janney and Phipps Stables. How many other champions have they produced? Having a Derby winner is probably the one feather they didn't have in their cap.

I'm fully aware of who bred and owns Orb. Too, I'm sorry, I don't care. It isn't relevant.

Your statement that--because a horse wins the Kentucky Derby, he has nothing to prove--is ludicrous. If your belief was shared by all, we could shut the sport down for the year....the morning after the race.

[johnhannibalsmith]

sounds like its a done deal according to the NY times. common sense prevails.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/20/sports/california-chrome-can-use-nasal-strip-in-the-belmont.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

notice that even the medical director of the state gaming commission refers to it as discontinuing the BAN.

Good link.

Sounds like they are trying to at least get it right now and for the next guy as well. Common sense prevails indeed.

[highnote]

I'm fully aware of who bred and owns Orb. Too, I'm sorry, I don't care. It isn't relevant.

Your statement that--because a horse wins the Kentucky Derby, he has nothing to prove--is ludicrous. If your belief was shared by all, we could shut the sport down for the year....the morning after the race.

After Charismatic won the Derby someone shouted to his groom, "He will never win another race." His groom had a great reply, "He doesn't have to."

Orb won the Derby. That in and of itself is a great accomplishment. His owners didn't have to have Orb win the TC to prove anything to anyone.

There have been great stallions and mares who have not accomplished much on the racetrack. Great stallions and mares can produce great horses that never win a triple crown race.

Tesio created champions from unknown horses.

Affirmed won the TC and beat Alydar all three times, but Alydar was more valuable than Affirmed as a stallion. If I had a choice I'd rather own Alydar than Affirmed.

[horses4courses]

sounds like its a done deal according to the NY times. common sense prevails.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/20/sports/california-chrome-can-use-nasal-strip-in-the-belmont.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

notice that even the medical director of the state gaming commission refers to it as discontinuing the BAN.

Amen to that!
Let's hope it is a done deal.

Let's face it - CC is up against it at Belmont - with or without the strips.
Fresher challengers, and a brand new surface, plus another quarter mile.
It won't be easy.

[ArlJim78]

Amen to that!
Let's hope it is a done deal.

Let's face it - CC is up against it at Belmont - with or without the strips.
Fresher challengers, and a brand new surface, plus another quarter mile.
It won't be easy.
It won't be easy, but I'm not convinced any of these fresh or new shooters have what it takes to run him down. I think the only way he loses is if Espinoza moves too soon on him. For example if he moves going into the Belmont turn like he did in the Preakness he could very well get nabbed late. If he sits chilly until roughly the 1/4 pole or just before, then he's home free, even if he is not in the lead he can catch any of these with his quick burst of speed. at least that is my early thought 3 weeks out.

[Secondbest]

Just heard on the radio. CC can wear the strip.

[Tom]

OH great!
Now what do we moan about for three weeks?

[upthecreek]

Just heard on the radio. CC can wear the strip.

So their blackmail and and extortion techniques worked I would have told them if you don't like go back to CA. I'll be the only one rooting for the horse to get beat -I guess

[highnote]

Amen to that!
Let's hope it is a done deal.

Let's face it - CC is up against it at Belmont - with or without the strips.
Fresher challengers, and a brand new surface, plus another quarter mile.
It won't be easy.


I'm glad stewards came to their senses. The owners of CC seem cantankerous enough to not run in the Belmont if they couldn't use nasal strips.

This is going to be a terrific race. I can't wait to see if CC's Derby speed figure should have been a Beyer 97 or a Beyer 106. It will be interesting to find out if the Derby variant was high which made the final time slow or if these horses are unable to stay classic distances.

I think CC has a great jockey. Hopefully, he won't move too early on CC the way Antley did on Charismatic. Had he waited just a bit longer Charismatic might have won the TC. But, in the heat of the moment it is hard to be perfect. It's easy to criticize a jockey in retrospect.

I'm rooting for CC, but I'm also rooting for Kid Cruz to pull a Lemon Drop Kid.

[Grits]

After Charismatic won the Derby someone shouted to his groom, "He will never win another race." His groom had a great reply, "He doesn't have to."

You can really pick 'em. Two more--things worked out well for. Charismatic and Alydar.

I wouldn't turn you loose at a horse sale for any amount of money.:lol:

Use common sense. You can do this all day, while failing to realize you're in a place where there are many who have followed, and know this sport as well as yourself. Tesio and others, yep, all those books are here in my den but they're not making your post any brighter. EOC.

[Saratoga_Mike]

So their blackmail and and extortion techniques worked I would have told them if you don't like go back to CA. I'll be the only one rooting for the horse to get beat -I guess

No, there will be two of us.

[Shelby]

ShermanRacingStables ‏@ShermanRacing 48s
California Chrome will run in Belmont Stakes, nasal strip was approved @BelmontStakes

[highnote]

OH great!
Now what do we moan about for three weeks?

You of all people, Mr. 63k+ posts, should know not to underestimate the ability of PA members to find something to bitch and moan about. :D

[highnote]

You can really pick 'em. Two more--things worked out well for. Charismatic and Alydar.

I wouldn't turn you loose at a horse sale for any amount of money.:lol:

Use common sense. You can do this all day, while failing to realize you're in a place where there are many who have followed, and know this sport as well as yourself. Tesio and others, yep, all those books are here in my den but they're not making your post any brighter. EOC.

What are you talking about. Alydar had one of the highest stud fees ever -- something like $300,000. Storm Cat or was it Storm Bird had a $500,000 fee, but that was years later.

I'll take owning Alydar over Affirmed any day.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Storm Cat was $500k. Alydar wasn't anywhere near that level. Affirmed was a great broodmare sire.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, Birdstone beat Smarty Jones....but we get your point.As you can see, I need a vacation...

[PaceAdvantage]

This forum is become vastly less appealing in recent weeks. Handicappers and horse bettors in whom I earlier perceived a shared sense of wonder, I now turn a yellow eye, yourself included. (Like you care!)I can't tell you how truly crushed I am to read this....

[highnote]

Storm Cat was $500k. Alydar wasn't anywhere near that level. Affirmed was a great broodmare sire.


Alydar's stud fee wasn't published. I have heard that it approached $300,000. Even if it was a $100,000, which it surely was greater than that, it was at least 3 times as high as Affirmed's.

Alydar produced 708 foals and averaged $113,000 in earnings -- almost double Affirmed's.

Affirmed produced 808 and averaged $65k.

Had Alydar not been killed his stud fee would have surely increased and his offspring would probably have kept earning more because he would have been bred to better and better mares.\

[ultracapper]

If I were an owner of Chrome, I would have gone quietly to the stewards and requested a waiver to wear the nasal strip. I would have approached them and said look, my horse runs with this thing, and if he can't use it, we won't be there. Not a threat, just a fact. So, can we use it or not?

It's a shame it came out in public so fast, and with a confrontational tone. It does look like blackmail this way, and a threat, and it would have made me happier if it were handled a little more discrete. Still rooting for him, but those owners seem a little off center in some ways to me.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Agree with you on Alydar as a sire overall - but I'm a huge fan of Affirmed broodmares, especially crossed with the Storm Cat line

[highnote]

Agree with you on Alydar as a sire overall - but I'm a huge fan of Affirmed broodmares, especially crossed with the Storm Cat line


Secretariat broodmares, too. Not sure who they cross well with, though.

[ultracapper]

Cross a secretariat with a slew and you might get an a p indy. Could happen.

[Grits]

look, my horse runs with this thing, and if he can't use it, we won't be there.

UC, try standing in front of anyone and starting a sentence with the word--Look. See how quickly you gain their attention with--we must have a problem.

And too, no matter how quietly you carve it, or gently cut it. These words are still a threat. They just are. :lol:

Its over now, and that's a good thing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

They should have held off on the decision. This mini-"controversy" drew a small amount of attention to the sport.

[DJofSD]

NYRA said CC can run with a nasal strip.

[Tom]

You of all people, Mr. 63k+ posts, should know not to underestimate the ability of PA members to find something to bitch and moan about. :D

moi?

I do wear nasal strips when I post, though.
Helps me keep going.

[highnote]

Cross a secretariat with a slew and you might get an a p indy. Could happen.

:)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ap+indy

[highnote]

moi?

I do wear nasal strips when I post, though.
Helps me keep going.


Nasal strips have given you an unfair advantage. I'm going to petition the moderator to ban them.

[DJofSD]

While Tom, the most interesting poster on Pace Advantage, does not always use nasal strips, when he does, he uses Sam. Sam can last for hours.

[Some_One]

My hope now is that some longshot beats CC in the Belmont, and when they go ask the trainer how the horse improved so much he responds with 'well we decided to add nasal strips today' and just watch the outrage by people like SRU on here about not knowing about it and how it would have affected their play.

[Dark Horse]

If I were an owner of Chrome, I would have gone quietly to the stewards and requested a waiver to wear the nasal strip. I would have approached them and said look, my horse runs with this thing, and if he can't use it, we won't be there. Not a threat, just a fact. So, can we use it or not?

It's a shame it came out in public so fast, and with a confrontational tone. It does look like blackmail this way, and a threat, and it would have made me happier if it were handled a little more discrete. Still rooting for him, but those owners seem a little off center in some ways to me.

Without the public pressure the stewards would have had far less reason to approve what is allowed anywhere else in the country. Now it was resolved fast and we can focus on the positives.

[Stillriledup]

So, when judges say that they don't care about carryovers like the Judges said at Gulfstream surrounding the controversial Rainbow DQ, and the general feeling from some fans is that judges make or don't make DQs based on how much money the track might make.....and you know, people say that doesn't matter and they work for the state and whatnut....but when you see them grant this horse the nasal strip knowing full well that his presence at Belmont is worth multi millions of dollars extra in their coffers, doesn't this *prove* that judges decisions sometimes are based on how much money the track might make?

[Dark Horse]

So, when judges say that they don't care about carryovers like the Judges said at Gulfstream surrounding the controversial Rainbow DQ, and the general feeling from some fans is that judges make or don't make DQs based on how much money the track might make.....and you know, people say that doesn't matter and they work for the state and whatnut....but when you see them grant this horse the nasal strip knowing full well that his presence at Belmont is worth multi millions of dollars extra in their coffers, doesn't this *prove* that judges decisions sometimes are based on how much money the track might make?


That's rule number one in politics: follow the money. Rules two and three are rule one.

[DJofSD]

What's the second rule?

[BettinBilly]

My Thoroughbred News Feeds have been going nuts today as Chrome's clearing to wear Nasal Strips is all over the news wires now.

That didn't take long.

[Stillriledup]

My Thoroughbred News Feeds have been going nuts today as Chrome's clearing to wear Nasal Strips is all over the news wires now.

That didn't take long.

Its trending on CNN.
Good for racing!

[Stillriledup]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2632853/Triple-Crown-dream-lives-California-Chrome-WILL-allowed-wear-nasal-strip-Belmont-Stakes.html

[jk3521]

So, when judges say that they don't care about carryovers like the Judges said at Gulfstream surrounding the controversial Rainbow DQ, and the general feeling from some fans is that judges make or don't make DQs based on how much money the track might make.....and you know, people say that doesn't matter and they work for the state and whatnut....but when you see them grant this horse the nasal strip knowing full well that his presence at Belmont is worth multi millions of dollars extra in their coffers, doesn't this *prove* that judges decisions sometimes are based on how much money the track might make?
Sounds like pure" Stengalese" :lol:

[Tom]

What's the second rule?

Don't talk about Fight Club.

NY Stewards on nasal strips.....In the past, New York stewards did not permit the use of nasal strips, in part, because they were not sure how to regulate it should the strips fall off in the paddock or during a race.

Try this:

1. Ask the stewards in any other state who apparently have access to knowledge you do not.

2. IF they fall off in the paddock, put them back on, If they fall off during the race, run without them fro that point forward.

3. Consider another, less demanding line of work.

[BettinBilly]

Its trending on CNN.
Good for racing!

It really is SRU. For the first time in a long tie, Horse Racing is a buzz now in culture, not just with fans, but with the general public. Nice to see.

[Stillriledup]

It really is SRU. For the first time in a long tie, Horse Racing is a buzz now in culture, not just with fans, but with the general public. Nice to see.

If racing can transcend sport and get non racing people talking about it as an "event" than it can be nothing but good for racing. Now, how good is it? Probably less than we want, but in no way is it BAD for racing.

And you know, if he wins the TC, Sherman and maybe the owners will be making the late night talk show circuit and that will expose horse racing to a completely different audience.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If racing can transcend sport and get non racing people talking about it as an "event" than it can be nothing but good for racing. Now, how good is it? Probably less than we want, but in no way is it BAD for racing.



Agreed - just wish the stewards had let the issue linger for a few more days - keeping the attention on the race.

[Tom]

You don't think the impression trending is that racing is acting stupid?

[clocker7]

If racing can transcend sport and get non racing people talking about it as an "event" than it can be nothing but good for racing. Now, how good is it? Probably less than we want, but in no way is it BAD for racing.

And you know, if he wins the TC, Sherman and maybe the owners will be making the late night talk show circuit and that will expose horse racing to a completely different audience.

Last week I met with a nephew who has been to the track once or twice, period. He was a young online poker player until the crackdown. But now he has had the KD on his bucket list for the past year or two.

What threw me was that his sister was there with a different story. Completely uninterested in anything having to do with racing, she was sent out to a local Indian casino on Derby day to place a bet for her boyfriend. She found herself in a 45-minute betting line. Moreso, she was in a room full of "hats" that were partying along with the rest of the crowd.

Now she wants to go back to Louisville with a hat.

I tell you, the hat dealie is an undercurrent with a power that track regulars don't fully comprehend. :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

You don't think the impression trending is that racing is acting stupid?

It probably looks stupid to you or others who are well informed, but to the general public it just piques their curiosity. It definitely falls into the "there's no such thing as bad publicity" category.

[Stillriledup]

Agreed - just wish the stewards had let the issue linger for a few more days - keeping the attention on the race.

I think they might have if they thought that the owners wouldn't just bail, maybe they werent sure if these people would "Race no matter what" and they know that these are vocal owners who have no problem telling the world how nice (or not nice) the track treated them. If they win and get up there on the podium and say that Belmont treated them amazing, that's a good plug right there for Belmont and NYRA and everyone else involved with tracks in NY.

[clocker7]

I think that the rapidity had to do with the shipping of CC being done on Tuesday. I think that they took the threat seriously.

I also think that they were on such weak ground that there was no other choice than surrender. One of the stewards that made the original decision has been quoted that this should have been done long ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

Without the public pressure the stewards would have had far less reason to approve what is allowed anywhere else in the country. Now it was resolved fast and we can focus on the positives.I get it...so stewards should be consistent in their rulings...until a triple crown is on the line....then it's ok to be inconsistent as long as everyone feels good in the end and we can focus on the positives.

Good to know the next time someone on here starts bitching about inconsistent stewards and their DQs

[cj]

I get it...so stewards should be consistent in their rulings...until a triple crown is on the line....then it's ok to be inconsistent as long as everyone feels good in the end and we can focus on the positives.

Good to know the next time someone on here starts bitching about inconsistent stewards and their DQs

Not really the same thing. This doesn't affect anybody's betting money like a DQ. The public now know well in advance what the horse will be wearing.

If they didn't allow the nasal strip, horse racing turns into a national laughing stock. Social media is exponentially bigger than it was just two short years ago and the fallout would have been immense.

[DJofSD]

So, do nasal strips get classified as equipment or medication?

[clocker7]

Examining a general rule--and deciding to change it permanently--is not equivalent to deciding race-by-race results inconsistently.

Just like in real life. Citizens are always tinkering with the law books, but they want to see their court systems run predictably, too. It's not a logical contradiction.

[highnote]

So are nasal strips now permitted for ALL horses racing at NYRA tracks?

[clocker7]

So are nasal strips now permitted for ALL horses racing at NYRA tracks?
Yes. Posted by johnhannibalsmith on another thread:

http://www.gaming.ny.gov/pdf/05.19.14.StewardsNasalStripsDecision.pdf

[Smarty Cide]

i think we need more threads that have 'nasal strip' in the title

[Valuist]

So, do nasal strips get classified as equipment or medication?

Neither- they should be classified as a placebo.

[Tom]

In NY, they are classified as rocket science.

[highnote]

In NY, they are classified as rocket science.

On a related note...

When I used to go the paddock for NYRA races back in the '90s many horses had tongue ties.

Then when we started racing our horses at Mountaineer also in the '90s almost none of the horses wore tongue ties. We had a horse at Mountaineer that was prone to "roaring". I suggested to our trainer that she try a tongue tie. She wouldn't do it.

I went back to the paddock in NY and sure enough most of the horses had tongue ties.

So is there a regional preference on tongue ties?

I noticed one of the Preakness horses had a tongue tie this year.

If tongue ties are allowed why not nasal strips.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Examining a general rule--and deciding to change it permanently--is not equivalent to deciding race-by-race results inconsistently.

Just like in real life. Citizens are always tinkering with the law books, but they want to see their court systems run predictably, too. It's not a logical contradiction.

I agree and that's why I didn't like the idea of the stewards themselves simply deciding this one on a "case by case basis" and ruling in favor of the nasal strip when the situation was crying out for approval and the revocation of discretion altogether straight away.

But, had they done the former and not changed the rule, then I'd be squarely in PA's camp. I don't care if the rule says "...shall not deliberately pocket a horse...", "...shall not move into the path of another rider and horse...", "...shall not exceed .5 mcg/mL plasma..."...

...it's how and when the rule (or policy) is enforced by the regulators, whatever rule (or policy) it may be. If you can't count on the rule from day-to-day or hour-to-hour to remain predictable, then you can't follow it, and you wind up under the bus. When discretion in these matters seem to blow with circumstances unrelated to any concrete mitigating factor directly related to the issue at hand, then you may as well just haul some kangaroos up to the nest... well, may not be such a bad idea... :D

[Frost king]

What would be real funny, if a horse that California Chrome has beaten, shows up with a nasal strip on, and hands him his lunch.

[Valuist]

We now have another potential excuse if he gets beaten. "The adhesive on the right side of the nasal strip came loose so Victor just didn't persevere with him."
:rolleyes:

[DJofSD]

I wonder if NBC will have any zoom shots of the horses in the paddock to show us the strips.

[Mr_Ed]

Thay are available in the silk colors of CC. Aisle 4 at CVS!

They're here:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=818960851448782&set=a.125466630798211.20695.113665201978354&type=1&theater

:D