Purse for Whitney increased...

[thespaah]

NYRA doubled the most important stake race for older horses of the Meet to $1.5 million.
Also, The purse for the Travers has been increased by 25% to $1.25 million.
http://www.drf.com/news/whitney-purse-doubled-15-million

[cj]

Horsemen love slots!

[thespaah]

Horsemen love slots!
It looks to me as though NYRA reduced purses for other Spa stakes and simply transferred the money to the Whitney and Travers.
Also, a couple other stakes got a bump in coin as well.
I am not so sure this slot thing is having its intended effect.
It appears its given horsemen even more reason to despise the bettors.
I forgot the name of the trainer/owner who recently made those derogatory comments toward bettors, but he said precisely what is happening. That as long as slots are being used to fund the purses, there is no need for bettors..
Ok...Then as long as there is slots money inflating purses, then why not drop the cost of placing a wager by reducing takeout?
If the horsemen insist on slots funding, then let the slot players fund the damned thing.
Anyway, I had no desire in posting this to get into a slots vs bettors thing...
I was simply passing along news.
However, I do understand your point. Well stated.

[tzipi]

I am not so sure this slot thing is having its intended effect.
It appears its given horsemen even more reason to despise the bettors.
I forgot the name of the trainer/owner who recently made those derogatory comments toward bettors, but he said precisely what is happening. That as long as slots are being used to fund the purses, there is no need for bettors.

They are just going to reap the benefits till the end. Bettors are not on the radar. Getting Casino Slots/games had nothing to do with racing or the bettors or making things better. The rich get richer. :)

[thespaah]

They are just going to reap the benefits till the end. Bettors are not on the radar. Getting Casino Slots/games had nothing to do with racing or the bettors or making things better. The rich get richer. :)
Question is..The end of what?
The American thirst for gambling will not end in the foreseeable future. Based on that premise, slots and other forms of gambling will continue to rake in the cash. A portion of which would fund the purses. The horsemen are happy because no one cares. And of course with no one watching, they just do their thing. No bettors to worry about.
If this trend of dwindling handle continues and the even more rapid decline of on track attendance continues as well, I could imagine tracks with NO stands.
They just run the races with no one watching them live.
And of course the need for the track to offer wagering would no longer be required.

[Tom]

Here's a thought - put ALL the SPA stakes on one weekend then they won't have to spend all summer out of NY.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Question is..The end of what?
The American thirst for gambling will not end in the foreseeable future. Based on that premise, slots and other forms of gambling will continue to rake in the cash. A portion of which would fund the purses. The horsemen are happy because no one cares. And of course with no one watching, they just do their thing. No bettors to worry about.
If this trend of dwindling handle continues and the even more rapid decline of on track attendance continues as well, I could imagine tracks with NO stands.
They just run the races with no one watching them live.
And of course the need for the track to offer wagering would no longer be required.

When the slots subsidy is legislated away - underway in WV and other states right now.

[NTamm1215]

When the slots subsidy is legislated away - underway in WV and other states right now.

It's not a subsidy. The slot money is in exchange for the land on which the racetracks sit, which is incredibly valuable.

[thespaah]

Here's a thought - put ALL the SPA stakes on one weekend then they won't have to spend all summer out of NY.
:rolleyes:
Tom, please tell me you're not one these grumpy " I disagree with everything that does not fit into my microscopic paradigm" people who think NYRA should be operated in Queens and Nassau Counties for the entire year.
I had heard that gripe so many times, it became my substitute for Sominex.

[thespaah]

When the slots subsidy is legislated away - underway in WV and other states right now.
And THAT is the $64k question....Do the horsemen believe slots revenue to purses will last in perpetuity?

[Robert Goren]

It's not a subsidy. The slot money is in exchange for the land on which the racetracks sit, which is incredibly valuable.You are kidding, right?

[tzipi]

Question is..The end of what?
The American thirst for gambling will not end in the foreseeable future. Based on that premise, slots and other forms of gambling will continue to rake in the cash. A portion of which would fund the purses. The horsemen are happy because no one cares. And of course with no one watching, they just do their thing. No bettors to worry about.
If this trend of dwindling handle continues and the even more rapid decline of on track attendance continues as well, I could imagine tracks with NO stands.
They just run the races with no one watching them live.
And of course the need for the track to offer wagering would no longer be required.

Eventually the government and other forces will go to the cash cows gambling outlets...CASINOS. They already love their intake. Racing had it's time and chances. Racing needs others(casinos) to support it. Horse racing admitted that years ago. Racing is a dying factor, and giving the slot money to the already rich horsemen and owners has hurt the sport even more. Nothing good has come from the slot money. What? Giving more thousands and millions to owners and trainers for the Woodward, etc? :rolleyes:

[the little guy]

You are kidding, right?

No, Robert, he's correct. Of course, you have been told this many times, but you refuse to acknowledge it....over and over and over and over and over again.

[Tom]

:rolleyes:
Tom, please tell me you're not one these grumpy " I disagree with everything that does not fit into my microscopic paradigm" people who think NYRA should be operated in Queens and Nassau Counties for the entire year.
I had heard that gripe so many times, it became my substitute for Sominex.

No, I was being unusually witty yet subtle, by linking this NYRA change with the moving of the races to Belmont Day.

[thespaah]

No, I was being unusually witty yet subtle, by linking this NYRA change with the moving of the races to Belmont Day.
Ahh...OK I remember that thread.
Very good!

[badcompany]

No, Robert, he's correct. Of course, you have been told this many times, but you refuse to acknowledge it....over and over and over and over and over again.

Apparently, it's possible to build a casino someplace other than a Racetrack.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/af0fef64f4ae7a45aa7aff6b93a9b99a_zps75e38d7f.jpg

[thespaah]

Apparently, it's possible to build a casino someplace other than a Racetrack.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/af0fef64f4ae7a45aa7aff6b93a9b99a_zps75e38d7f.jpg
Ha! Smart move. Just off I-90 Exit 9...And a driver/pitching wedge from Albany

[badcompany]

Ha! Smart move. Just off I-90 Exit 9...And a driver/pitching wedge from Albany

If they can make this happen, the Racino at Toga becomes redundant and will probably be closed. The leasing agreement for the harness track ends in 2015.

[NTamm1215]

You are kidding, right?

Those that engage you are only kidding themselves, right?

[burnsy]

If they can make this happen, the Racino at Toga becomes redundant and will probably be closed. The leasing agreement for the harness track ends in 2015.

Its all pretty much the same business people or interests. Some of the citizens here didn't want an expanded casino. They chased these people out of town and they came up with East Greenbush. The state just recently approved new sites besides at race tracks and this same group will make a move on the Catskills site too. I think Saratoga just screwed up because it will affect the Racino here and the bottom line in the city itself. Its been rumored that one of the owners has been quoted saying just what you said. He also said he could make a fortune there developing that property into condos. If you've been up here lately, its probably true too. But these are the first steps to cutting horse racing right out of the casino picture in NY for sure. The fine non gaming people here just shot that harness track hard if it all comes true. Real estate boom if the harness closes :confused:

[mickyfinn]

NYRA doubled the most important stake race for older horses of the Meet to $1.5 million.
Also, The purse for the Travers has been increased by 25% to $1.25 million.
http://www.drf.com/news/whitney-purse-doubled-15-million

These ever-increasing purses from slot money are a direct ticket to no-wheres-ville. The Whitney going from $1m to $1.5m will not make one bit of difference as they will attract the exact same horses at $1m as they would at $1.5m. What is the point of this? What's the goal?

I'm sure this $500k boost will attract all sorts of new fans to horseracing - "Wow, I'm going to start playing the horses because the Whitney is now worth $1.5m! Before this I had no interest in racing but this $1/2m purse increase will do it."

It's become almost humorous to watch tracks continually poor money into purses and think that's the panacea that will turn it all around. Keep it up NYRA, you're on the right track. Next year boost it to $2m.

[badcompany]

Its all pretty much the same business people or interests. Some of the citizens here didn't want an expanded casino. They chased these people out of town and they came up with East Greenbush. The state just recently approved new sites besides at race tracks and this same group will make a move on the Catskills site too. I think Saratoga just screwed up because it will affect the Racino here and the bottom line in the city itself. Its been rumored that one of the owners has been quoted saying just what you said. He also said he could make a fortune there developing that property into condos. If you've been up here lately, its probably true too. But these are the first steps to cutting horse racing right out of the casino picture in NY for sure. The fine non gaming people here just shot that harness track hard if it all comes true. Real estate boom if the harness closes :confused:

I was actually hoping you would chime in on this issue.


Apparently most of the Racino patrons come from down that way. So, they're not going to go to Toga when they have a brand new facility that's closer.

I don't see why the town was so against the expansion. You already have slots and horseracing, there. What difference is a few Blackjack and Poker Tables gonna make?

With regard to condos being built at the Harness Track, I'm not so sure it's a license to print money. Bonacio is still trying to move those Condos overlooking Congress Park.

[burnsy]

These ever-increasing purses from slot money are a direct ticket to no-wheres-ville. The Whitney going from $1m to $1.5m will not make one bit of difference as they will attract the exact same horses at $1m as they would at $1.5m. What is the point of this? What's the goal?

I'm sure this $500k boost will attract all sorts of new fans to horseracing - "Wow, I'm going to start playing the horses because the Whitney is now worth $1.5m! Before this I had no interest in racing but this $1/2m purse increase will do it."

It's become almost humorous to watch tracks continually poor money into purses and think that's the panacea that will turn it all around. Keep it up NYRA, you're on the right track. Next year boost it to $2m.

I hear what you are saying but to be fair NYRA has always been aggressive with its purse structure and its clear that NY owns summer racing now. The racing at Del Mar is nothing like Saratoga these days. The best owners, trainers, horses and the jockey colony is in another galaxy. Belmont is almost as good. They will have to fund these kind of purses whether there's casino money or not. It beats that 3 laps around the bull ring for the same money. Racing is probably going to move on but downsizing is probably on the horizon. At least there will be a good product. People would really be bitching if they took the route like some other tracks.....I don't really bet Fairgrounds but people are on here bitching constantly because they don't spend a dime. NYRA at least is changing purses, cards and the tracks (improvements) to keep up. Put it this way, if horse racing does take a hard hit......I'm confident that Belmont and Saratoga will be some of the last ones standing because at least there are "attempts" being made. Would you rather they cut purses and didn't buy new screens or fix the tracks up? At first I thought the same way but I really think NY has made some good moves in these tough times. If things really go south I feel the summer racing here is the most stable.

[Tom]

Casinos are parasites - they use the tracks as host bodies to get entrenched.
Only an idiot thinks they will need the track long term. They generate more money, take up less space, and cost less to operate. Track are going to find themselves outside looking in. Tracks are just money pits for the casinos. It will not last. Tracks are the third wheels.

[burnsy]

I was actually hoping you would chime in on this issue.


Apparently most of the Racino patrons come from down that way. So, they're not going to go to Toga when they have a brand new facility that's closer.

I don't see why the town was so against the expansion. You already have slots and horseracing, there. What difference is a few Blackjack and Poker Tables gonna make?

With regard to condos being built at the Harness Track, I'm not so sure it's a license to print money. Bonacio is still trying to move those Condos overlooking Congress Park.

You are right about everything you said. I go over on Friday night to watch harness racing. I don't even bet, I enjoy watching and having a beer. I have friends in the business, I grew up here. The racino brought the place back to life. People from the entire capital district became "regulars" again. I became friends with guys at the bar. They were all from Latham, Colonie, Albany and Troy. Their wives played slots while they drank and played harness. Why in Gods name would you drive up here when there's a better casino down the street from your house? Plus, live racing takes the winter off.

The "Anti" gaming group said a casino would attract criminals and trouble. Same thing they said 10 years ago about slots and it never happened. Its mostly middle aged and older people that are not desperate for money. They also cried about local business....if there's less traffic....how does this make sense? Winter time is dead anyway. The protests signs, t shirts and everything at city hall. we have a city council govt. here and they made a resolution that these people didn't want to deal with.....game over...taking their chips to East Greenbush and another in the Catskills. Many people have moved here and they think its a bedroom community. This city was built on springs, gaming and horses. It didn't even make sense for the cities business interests.

The condo thing maybe correct too........sales have slowed significantly.

[Saratoga_Mike]

No, Robert, he's correct. Of course, you have been told this many times, but you refuse to acknowledge it....over and over and over and over and over again.

"It's not a subsidy. The slot money is in exchange for the land on which the racetracks sit, which is incredibly valuable."

Right about the bolded assertion? Come on, the track's land isn't needed for a slots parlor or a full casino. There are plenty of places to locate VLTs/slots/table games other than on track property. Even if the purse subsidy represented a de facto rent payment, the value of the land would be paid off within a few years in most cases. I can't speak specifically to AQU, but I can assure you in places like WV or Penn, the "rent payments" have now exceeded the value of the track land, no question. PIM or LRL receive "rent payments" and don't even have the slots on site.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You are right about everything you said. I go over on Friday night to watch harness racing. I don't even bet, I enjoy watching and having a beer. I have friends in the business, I grew up here. 1) The racino brought the place back to life. People from the entire capital district became "regulars" again. I became friends with guys at the bar. They were all from Latham, Colonie, Albany and Troy. Their wives played slots while they drank and played harness. Why in Gods name would you drive up here when there's a better casino down the street from your house? Plus, live racing takes the winter off.

2) The condo thing maybe correct too........sales have slowed significantly.

1) Brought what back to life? The harness racing side of Saratoga Harness? I went two nights in a row a few weeks ago, a Friday and a Saturday, and there weren't 100 people in the grandstand. Yes, I counted. In the early 90s, when the secular decline of harness racing had already started, that number would have been 500 to 800. If you're referring to the slots business, I agree, it's very well attended.

2) The price point on the condos overlooking Congress Park are too high. There's only so much demand from outsiders looking for high-end Saratoga condos. How about the boutique condo building by Sushi Thai - have any sold?

[Robert Goren]

They build casinos next to race tracks because they are required to by state law. Where they are allowed to build them else where. they do. Where they are not force too by state law, casinos do not give a part of their profits to purses they don't. In a lot of places the legalization of casinos and part of their profits go to racing was sold as a way to save racing and the horse industry in the state to the state senators and to the voters. If that isn't a subsidy, then you and I have very different definitions of subsidies.

[badcompany]

"It's not a subsidy. The slot money is in exchange for the land on which the racetracks sit, which is incredibly valuable."

Right about the bolded assertion? Come on, the track's land isn't needed for a slots parlor or a full casino. There are plenty of places to locate VLTs/slots/table games other than on track property. Even if the purse subsidy represented a de facto rent payment, the value of the land would be paid off within a few years in most cases. I can't speak specifically to AQU, but I can assure you in places like WV or Penn, the "rent payments" have now exceeded the value of the track land, no question. PIM or LRL receive "rent payments" and don't even have the slots on site.

Saratoga Casino & Raceway paid $2 million for the Greenbush land. That's less than the combined purses of the Whitney and Travers.

Under normal business conditions, no thriving business would want to be partners with a dying one. If the former wanted the assets of the latter, it would wait for the death to occur and then buy the assets for pennies on the dollar.

Of course, no one likes to think of themselves as welfare recipients. So, you have these bizarre rationalizations for the subsidies, "We were here, first," "The land is valuable."

[the little guy]

"It's not a subsidy. The slot money is in exchange for the land on which the racetracks sit, which is incredibly valuable."

Right about the bolded assertion? Come on, the track's land isn't needed for a slots parlor or a full casino. There are plenty of places to locate VLTs/slots/table games other than on track property. Even if the purse subsidy represented a de facto rent payment, the value of the land would be paid off within a few years in most cases. I can't speak specifically to AQU, but I can assure you in places like WV or Penn, the "rent payments" have now exceeded the value of the track land, no question. PIM or LRL receive "rent payments" and don't even have the slots on site.


I am not going to get into it here, and I think you seem like a nice guy, but what you're saying is just wrong. Frankly, when you continue to play into the hands of inaccurate sources that want you to believe it is a subsidy, you make yourself into a pawn. If that's OK with you, fine, but you're smarter than that. It's a fact that a deal was made, land was traded for certain concessions. Comparing the deal at NYRA to other racing jurisdictions is actually exactly the point, as ours is different. We made a deal, or trade if you want to call it that, and were specifically NOT given a subsidy.

[Robert Goren]

I am not going to get into it here, and I think you seem like a nice guy, but what you're saying is just wrong. Frankly, when you continue to play into the hands of inaccurate sources that want you to believe it is a subsidy, you make yourself into a pawn. If that's OK with you, fine, but you're smarter than that. It's a fact that a deal was made, land was traded for certain concessions. Comparing the deal at NYRA to other racing jurisdictions is actually exactly the point, as ours is different. We made a deal, or trade if you want to call it that, and were specifically NOT given a subsidy. The NYRA may have different set up. But there is one thing for sure, 6 or 7 years down the line casinos will be after the NY legislature to changes to laws to cut out the money racing receives from the casinos. How long it will take is another question. But in the end the casinos will win because they have more money than the horsemen. You can call it rent if you want, but of this I am sure, if the casinos had a choice, they'd be building their casinos some place in NY where they didn't have to pay "rent" to the horse industry. From what I have seen, there is no way to run a non-Indian casino without it giving racing money in some shape or form. Feel free to point out any non-Indian casino in NY that doesn't give racing money.

[Robert Goren]

TLG, did you enjoy your trip to Nebraska. I had hoped to attend, but made a trip to the ER instead of Omaha. Maybe some time they can bring you in to Lincoln if they ever get the new track built.

[the little guy]

TLG, did you enjoy your trip to Nebraska. I had hoped to attend, but made a trip to the ER instead of Omaha. Maybe some time they can bring you in to Lincoln if they ever get the new track built.

Yeah, it's great there, and the people couildn't be nicer. I hear the place in Lincoln is very nice, and actually saw some pictures.

[Robert Goren]

Yeah, it's great there, and the people couildn't be nicer. I hear the place in Lincoln is very nice, and actually saw some pictures. The Nebraska horsemen's group run both places and they are huge improvement over who ran them before. I glad you enjoyed the trip.

[thespaah]

Its all pretty much the same business people or interests. Some of the citizens here didn't want an expanded casino. They chased these people out of town and they came up with East Greenbush. The state just recently approved new sites besides at race tracks and this same group will make a move on the Catskills site too. I think Saratoga just screwed up because it will affect the Racino here and the bottom line in the city itself. Its been rumored that one of the owners has been quoted saying just what you said. He also said he could make a fortune there developing that property into condos. If you've been up here lately, its probably true too. But these are the first steps to cutting horse racing right out of the casino picture in NY for sure. The fine non gaming people here just shot that harness track hard if it all comes true. Real estate boom if the harness closes :confused:
The Catskills..The hoteliers started hollering for legalization of casino gambling back in the late 70's. Just about the time when the last of the "Borscht Belt" hotels closed. Back then there was so much fear of the Sicilian Mafia, the state politicians were nearly certain that any casino in the Catskills would be a mob run deal.
Anyway, If any place in NY State will get a casino it will be there. BTW, if this is the case Monticello Raceway and slots is probably gonna be going out of business.
The Capitol District casino location looks like it makes more sense.
And yes I agree. The Saratoga racino land would be worth a TON of money as a condo complex. Real Estate in Saratoga Springs is hot. And it's expensive. Of course you already know that.

[thespaah]

These ever-increasing purses from slot money are a direct ticket to no-wheres-ville. The Whitney going from $1m to $1.5m will not make one bit of difference as they will attract the exact same horses at $1m as they would at $1.5m. What is the point of this? What's the goal?

I'm sure this $500k boost will attract all sorts of new fans to horseracing - "Wow, I'm going to start playing the horses because the Whitney is now worth $1.5m! Before this I had no interest in racing but this $1/2m purse increase will do it."

It's become almost humorous to watch tracks continually poor money into purses and think that's the panacea that will turn it all around. Keep it up NYRA, you're on the right track. Next year boost it to $2m.
Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that...
I can say though, you're guess about the slots funding the purse increase may be off. If you'd read the story in the link rather than snap back with the above, you'd have noticed the possibility of the money coming from purse reductions in other Spa stakes.
Look, I'm not discussing this with you because you have your mind made up.
So be it.

[thespaah]

Casinos are parasites - they use the tracks as host bodies to get entrenched.
Only an idiot thinks they will need the track long term. They generate more money, take up less space, and cost less to operate. Track are going to find themselves outside looking in. Tracks are just money pits for the casinos. It will not last. Tracks are the third wheels.
Standalone casinos?

[thespaah]

You are right about everything you said. I go over on Friday night to watch harness racing. I don't even bet, I enjoy watching and having a beer. I have friends in the business, I grew up here. The racino brought the place back to life. People from the entire capital district became "regulars" again. I became friends with guys at the bar. They were all from Latham, Colonie, Albany and Troy. Their wives played slots while they drank and played harness. Why in Gods name would you drive up here when there's a better casino down the street from your house? Plus, live racing takes the winter off.

The "Anti" gaming group said a casino would attract criminals and trouble. Same thing they said 10 years ago about slots and it never happened. Its mostly middle aged and older people that are not desperate for money. They also cried about local business....if there's less traffic....how does this make sense? Winter time is dead anyway. The protests signs, t shirts and everything at city hall. we have a city council govt. here and they made a resolution that these people didn't want to deal with.....game over...taking their chips to East Greenbush and another in the Catskills. Many people have moved here and they think its a bedroom community. This city was built on springs, gaming and horses. It didn't even make sense for the cities business interests.

The condo thing maybe correct too........sales have slowed significantly.
Yep...These newcomers to an area that say "now that I'm here, let's close the place down to anyone else."
These are for the most part upper middle class people who want to live in cul de sac neighborhoods and to able to hang out a sign at the edge of town that says "quiet time starts when I put my little tee ball, soccer playing cupcakes to bed"..... at 7:30 in the middle of summer.
These are the same people who use the " A casino will bring noise, traffic, crime and prostitution"...
Well, newsflash to them...Saratoga Springs is a resort community that depends on flourishing summer tourism.
Anyway. If the Capitol District location casino is built, the racino is going to take a huge hit.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I am not going to get into it here, and I think you seem like a nice guy, but what you're saying is just wrong. Frankly, when you continue to play into the hands of inaccurate sources that want you to believe it is a subsidy, you make yourself into a pawn. If that's OK with you, fine, but you're smarter than that. It's a fact that a deal was made, land was traded for certain concessions. Comparing the deal at NYRA to other racing jurisdictions is actually exactly the point, as ours is different. We made a deal, or trade if you want to call it that, and were specifically NOT given a subsidy.

My comments were not specific to NYRA, as I don't know the specifics of your situation. I stand by my comments about WV and PA.

[badcompany]

I've made this point, before. The Racino business model is obsolete.

There is no reason for all the infrastructure when these games can just as easily be played on a wifi ready TV, IPhone or an IPad. Sure this charade will carry on for a while because it has state backing, but, soon other states will follow Jersey's lead toward online betting and the jig will be up.

Standalone casinos?

A parasite sucks the life out of its host. The casinos did the opposite as most of the tracks would've closed without them.

The relationship between casinos and racing is best described as a shotgun wedding.