The ultimate backlash to anti gun groups

[JustRalph]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/23/georgia-gun-law/8046315/

Lots of backlash since the anti gunners went full on batshit crazy mode.

But this one sticks it hard, right in their face.

"ELLIJAY, Ga. — It's legal for licensed gun owners in Georgia to pack heat in bars, schools, churches and some government buildings.

Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal, a Republican, on Wednesday signed the state's "Safe Carry Protection Act," which critics dubbed the "guns everywhere bill," in north Georgia, on the edge of the Chattahoochee National Forest and Cohutta Wilderness area.

"Our state has some of the best protections for gun owners in the United States. And today we strengthen those rights protected by our nation's most revered founding document," Deal said in signing the bill.

The new law, which goes into effect July 1, allows licensed gun owners in Georgia and visitors from 28 other states to bring a gun into a bar without restrictions and carry a firearm into some government buildings that don't have security measures. It also allows school districts to decide whether they want some employees to carry a firearm and religious leaders to decide whether to allow licensed gun owners to tote to their church, synagogue or mosque."

Lots of action on twitter

http://twitchy.com/2014/04/23/guns-everywhere-georgia-governor-signs-bill-expanding-firearm-rights-piers-morgan-leads-backlash/

[jwb]

I'm all for CCP, and respect others right and desire to arm themselves, however, bars? The state of Georgia is going way too far.... alcohol, women, and, the legal right to open carry? In Atlanta? Hotlanta? Sheeeit.
I wouldn't want to be the cop asking to see the permit from a guy standing on the corner with a Taurus Judge on his hip.... In any neighborhood.

It'll be interesting to see the impact on the state economy/statistics.... attract Co.'s?..... shootings?..... overall crime?...tax payers?.... college enrollment?... sales at ABC license holding establishments?.... newly licensed attorneys?

[BlueShoe]

Bet that the crime rate in Georgia goes down and that there are fewer bar fights. When the guy you get in a beef with might be packing, even the hotheads are going to be far more likely to keep the conversation at a polite level.

[Clocker]

Bet that the crime rate in Georgia goes down and that there are fewer bar fights. When the guy you get in a beef with might be packing, even the hotheads are going to be far more likely to keep the conversation at a polite level.

An armed society is a polite society. -- Robert Heinlein

[horses4courses]

FTFY

An armed society is a delusional society. -- Robert Heinlein

[Clocker]

An armed society is a delusional society. -- Robert Heinlein

The delusional people in this society are the ones that think that they can disarm it.

[Tom]

"An unarmed society is a controlled society."
------A Hitler, 1933, J Stalin, 1945, N Krushev, 1960, Kim Dung Hill, 2001

The worst dictators in history were all united with you in the opposition to an armed public.

"SON of a BITCH! Those damn farmers are shooting at us?"
------King George, confirmed opponent of the right to bear arms

[horses4courses]

Gun rights advocates think that this is life as it should be lived.
Hard to believe that anyone is that foolish......

[Robert Goren]

Bet that the crime rate in Georgia goes down and that there are fewer bar fights. When the guy you get in a beef with might be packing, even the hotheads are going to be far more likely to keep the conversation at a polite level.Anybody who believes that has never worked in a bar.

[HUSKER55]

or perhaps, people will drink a little less and socialize a little more.

[Clocker]

Gun rights advocates think that this is life as it should be lived.
Hard to believe that anyone is that foolish......

Yeah, it has only worked here for about 230 years. It is obviously foolish to think that it is sustainable over the long run.

[JustRalph]

I'm all for CCP, and respect others right and desire to arm themselves, however, bars? The state of Georgia is going way too far.... alcohol, women, and, the legal right to open carry? In Atlanta? Hotlanta? Sheeeit.
I wouldn't want to be the cop asking to see the permit from a guy standing on the corner with a Taurus Judge on his hip.... In any neighborhood.

It'll be interesting to see the impact on the state economy/statistics.... attract Co.'s?..... shootings?..... overall crime?...tax payers?.... college enrollment?... sales at ABC license holding establishments?.... newly licensed attorneys?


Stop being so knee jerk. It's not a problem. The data shows CCW permit holders cause very very few problems. It's been legal in bars in Ohio for over two years now.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/09/30/carry-fear-silenced.html

Just like those who screamed there would be blood in the streets when permits were first instituted in Ohio and several other states, it just hasn't happened. Bad guys don't get CCW permits. It's been shown all over the country that CCW holders are rarely involved in crimes. Please see the link above

Snip


Comments: 12

COURTNEY HERGESHEIMER | DISPATCH
Franklin County leads the state in new concealed-carry permits with 1,442; gun-rights supporters say the statewide number is 301,000 and rising.
A year after the sound and fury over a state law allowing concealed guns in bars and restaurants, there has been silence.

Almost no incidents have been reported involving concealed-carry permit holders, and there has been no spike in violence as predicted by some opponents concerned about the volatile mix of alcohol and guns.

The impact is difficult to assess, however, because law-enforcement and state agencies do not formally track violations involving guns in bars.

But those on both sides of the issue agree all is calm, so far.

“There was a lot of hubbub about it on both sides, ... then almost immediately it just got quiet,” said Scott Heimlich, owner of Barcelona Restaurant in Columbus and president of the Central Ohio Restaurant Association. “In restaurants, we have not had any incidents.”

Snip

Law enforcement in Ohio don't track these incidents because there is nothing to track. If there were incidents you can be sure they would be on the front page!

[boxcar]

Gun rights advocates think that this is life as it should be lived.
Hard to believe that anyone is that foolish......

What's even more incredibly difficult to believe is the depth of the naivete owned by those who cannot see the wisdom of living life as it should be lived -- protected, safe and secure.

Boxcar

[Clocker]

Stop being so knee jerk. It's not a problem. The data shows CCW permit holders cause very very few problems. It's been legal in bars in Ohio for over two years now.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/09/30/carry-fear-silenced.html

Just like those who screamed there would be blood in the streets when permits were first instituted in Ohio and several other states, it just hasn't happened. Bad guys don't get CCW permits. It's been shown all over the country that CCW holders are rarely involved in crimes. Please see the link above

The knee-jerk reactions are always from people that have never been through reputable fire arms training courses, or the even more stringent concealed carry courses needed to get a carry permit. People that go to the trouble of getting training and getting permits are deadly serious about gun safety and about measured and appropriate response to a situation. Studies have shown that people with guns and proper firearms training are much less likely to over-react to stressful situations than those with neither.

I would feel a lot safer about a stranger in a bar with a gun and a permit than about the average soccer mom in a car with a cell phone.

[GaryG]

Tennessee passed a similar law last year. Open carry is allowed anywhere except on a school ground. Johnson County is armed to the teeth and there is very little crime.

[Robert Goren]

The knee-jerk reactions are always from people that have never been through reputable fire arms training courses, or the even more stringent concealed carry courses needed to get a carry permit. People that go to the trouble of getting training and getting permits are deadly serious about gun safety and about measured and appropriate response to a situation. Studies have shown that people with guns and proper firearms training are much less likely to over-react to stressful situations than those with neither.

I would feel a lot safer about a stranger in a bar with a gun and a permit than about the average soccer mom in a car with a cell phone.Both are very dangerous situations. Maybe those people who are predisposed to fight when they get a few drinks in them will be smart enough not to bring a gun to bar. But I wouldn't want to bet very much money on it. If those drunken fighters were smart, they would drink in the first place. When I was tending bar, many years ago, I once saw two brothers go at each other with pocket knives. One brother got cut up pretty good. I hate to think what would have happened if they would have had guns. Having been there, I don't think nothing would have been an option with those two. I am not convinced this guns in a bar is not going to be a big problem for the state of Georgia.

[horses4courses]

What's even more incredibly difficult to believe is the depth of the naivete owned by those who cannot see the wisdom of living life as it should be lived -- protected, safe and secure.

Boxcar

These laws came about when people went out into the woods to shoot dinner.

[BlueShoe]

"An unarmed society is a controlled society."
------A Hitler, 1933, J Stalin, 1945, N Krushev, 1960, Kim Dung Hill, 2001
An armed man is a citizen, a disarmed man is a subject.

[FantasticDan]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/man-gun-causes-scare-during-childrens-baseball-gam/nfhJS/

"Hey everybody, check out my gun! I got myself a tough-guy boner now, and there ain't nuthin nobody can do about it!" :bang: :bang:

[TJDave]

Both are very dangerous situations. Maybe those people who are predisposed to fight when they get a few drinks in them will be smart enough not to bring a gun to bar. But I wouldn't want to bet very much money on it.


If I knew there was a chance that a bar patron would be carrying I wouldn't darken their door. Why would you take that chance?

Now, the owner/operator...absolutely.

[JustRalph]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/man-gun-causes-scare-during-childrens-baseball-gam/nfhJS/

"Hey everybody, check out my gun! I got myself a tough-guy boner now, and there ain't nuthin nobody can do about it!" :bang: :bang:

Bullshit. The Sheriff was obviously derelict in his duties. Under this section he could have easily been arrested.

http://law.onecle.com/georgia/16/16-11-39.html

Btw, you are surely not implying that all licensed CCW citizens are like this guy?

[chrisl]

Hey Fantastic Dan: I did not read the guy talking about his "boner" in that story. Did you add the boner statement to it. That is really weird, you need to keep your thoughts in your room dude. You and HCAP and your man package statements are uncalled for. Keep your closet antics off this board. Sick

[Dave Schwartz]

These laws came about when people went out into the woods to shoot dinner.

I assure you that the 2nd amendment had nothing to do with dinner.

[horses4courses]

I assure you that the 2nd amendment had nothing to do with dinner.

Sorry, Dave
Your post got by me.

Nor did it have anything to do with these:
http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii577/USMCBattlecrazed/DesertAssaultRifles.jpg

[Clocker]

Sorry, Dave
Your post got by me.

Nor did it have anything to do with these:

If the 2nd Amendment didn't have anything to do with those, then the 1st Amendment didn't have anything to do with radio, TV, or the internet.

[horses4courses]

If the 2nd Amendment didn't have anything to do with those, then the 1st Amendment didn't have anything to do with radio, TV, or the internet.

Hand grenades, bazookas, tanks, ground-to-air missiles.
Do you draw the line anywhere?

Those forefathers weren't clairvoyant now, were they?

[Clocker]

Hand grenades, bazookas, tanks, ground-to-air missiles.
Do you draw the line anywhere?

Those forefathers weren't clairvoyant now, were they?

It's not my line to draw. That's why we have a Supreme Court. And sometimes they even get it right.

The court has ruled that the 2nd Amendment applies to weapons currently in common usage for lawful purposes.

[JustRalph]

If the 2nd Amendment didn't have anything to do with those, then the 1st Amendment didn't have anything to do with radio, TV, or the internet.

Stop making so much sense

[elysiantraveller]

Hand grenades, bazookas, tanks, ground-to-air missiles.
Do you draw the line anywhere?

Those forefathers weren't clairvoyant now, were they?
Yes its called a Class III Federal Firearms License, an ATF national registry, a tax stamp, 10s of thousands of dollars, and actually being able to find any of those made before 1986.

It helps to do a little research and hell only the SCAR has anything other than a bayonet on it... does sticking a knife on the front of your gun suddenly make it more dangerous?

This is a stick:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02603/stick-dog_2603828b.jpg

This is a banned stick:
http://minimatefactory.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/800px-toothpick_s.jpg

Also, what if my dog chews on the stick thus sharpening it? Does he get banned too?

See the absurdity?

[horses4courses]

Yes its called a Class III Federal Firearms License, an ATF national registry, a tax stamp, 10s of thousands of dollars, and actually being able to find any of those made before 1986.

It helps to do a little research and hell only the SCAR has anything other than a bayonet on it... does sticking a knife on the front of your gun suddenly make it more dangerous?

This is a stick:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02603/stick-dog_2603828b.jpg

This is a banned stick:
http://minimatefactory.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/800px-toothpick_s.jpg

Also, what if my dog chews on the stick sharpening it? Does he get banned too?

See the absurdity?

Obviously, the bayonets have nothing to do with it.
I searched for photos of assault weapons,
and the best ones were all encrypted.
That's what I ended up with.

I don't know what the hell they are, and could care less.
Never played with guns much when I was a kid.......

[boxcar]

These laws came about when people went out into the woods to shoot dinner.

Wow! I had no idea that is how the second amendment came about. But even so...people to this day still hunt for their food. So...until the day arrives when there is no more game to hunt or eating goes out of vogue, methinks it would be a good idea to keep "these laws".

Boxcar

[Clocker]

It helps to do a little research and hell only the SCAR has anything other than a bayonet on it... does sticking a knife on the front of your gun suddenly make it more dangerous?


Of course it does. You don't even need the knife, just the potential is evil. Under the Assault Weapon Ban, a bayonet mount was a listed characteristic of an assault rifle. And it still is in such enlightened states as California.

[horses4courses]

Wow! I had no idea that is how the second amendment came about. But even so...people to this day still hunt for their food. So...until the day arrives when there is no more game to hunt or eating goes out of vogue, methinks it would be a good idea to keep "these laws".

Boxcar

I never said that was the reason for the laws....I was merely setting the scene.
Muskets and wild turkeys, ya follow?

People really hunt to eat still?
I go to the grocery store.
You really need all your survival skills to make it out of there.

[elysiantraveller]

Obviously, the bayonets have nothing to do with it.
I searched for photos of assault weapons,
and the best ones were all encrypted.
That's what I ended up with.

I don't know what the hell they are, and could care less.
Never played with guns much when I was a kid.......
Well you can't just go buy a grenade launcher so rest easy. Furthermore your admitted lack of knowledge kinda proves most pro-gun peoples point that you are speaking out of emotion and not fact or reason.

[horses4courses]

Well you can't just go buy a grenade launcher so rest easy. Furthermore your admitted lack of knowledge kinda proves most pro-gun peoples point that you are speaking out of emotion and not fact or reason.

I know enough to realize that your average human being shouldn't need a gun in order to survive.

[Tom]

Says you.

[elysiantraveller]

I know enough to realize that your average human being shouldn't need a gun in order to survive.
Perhaps not but they have the right to. Based on my personal past experiences I'm glad I have that right and I'm pretty average. Actually when I think about it when my house was broken into with my mom, myself (5), and my brother (2) in it everything about my family was pretty average.

[horses4courses]

Perhaps not but they have the right to. Based on my personal past experiences I'm glad I have that right and I'm pretty average. Actually when I think about it when my house was broken into with my mom, myself (5), and my brother (2) in it everything about my family was pretty average.

If I lived in an area where I felt threatened, I would think differently.
I don't blame people for defending themselves, and it's good they have the right to.
I always feel that it's a shame that is how things are, though.

Hard to pinpoint exactly where firearms got out of control in this country,
but they did.

[elysiantraveller]

If I lived in an area where I felt threatened, I would think differently.
I don't blame people for defending themselves, and it's good they have the right to. I always feel that it's a shame that is how things are, though.

Hard to pinpoint exactly where firearms got out of control in this country,
but they did.

I lived in the middle of a middle-upper class neighborhood in suburbia. Our house had a in-ground swimming pool and I walked to and from kindergarten. I actually live within 2 miles of that house and the median income in my area is 35% above state average. Not a really threatening environmemt... but you're right bad things don't happen to "average" people.

How exactly are guns out of control in this country? Because people have them? See, since I'm educated when it comes to firearms and been around them my whole life I've never met a gun I was afraid of... I've met countless people though...

[horses4courses]

I lived in the middle of a middle-upper class neighborhood in suburbia. Our house had a in-ground swimming pool and I walked to and from kindergarten. Not a really threatening environmemt... but you're right bad things don't happen to "average" people.

How exactly are guns out of control in this country? Because people have them? See, since I'm educated when it comes to firearms and been around them my whole life I've never met a gun I was afraid of... I've met countless people though...

How have guns gotten into the hands of the wrong people for so very long?
The Wild West? Prohibition Era? All the way to drive-by shootings in the 'hood.
It's been an epidemic for well over a century.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I know enough to realize that your average human being shouldn't need a gun in order to survive.

And if you could get rid of the guns that wind up in the hands of the non-average, the average human would probably agree with you and we could change the Constitution pronto.

[elysiantraveller]

How have guns gotten into the hands of the wrong people for so very long?
The Wild West? Prohibition Era? All the way to drive-by shootings in the 'hood.
It's been an epidemic for well over a century.

Facts vs. Fear:

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-gun-crime-1-2.png

[TJDave]

Those are interesting graphs.

I wonder what could have happened that caused a precipitous drop beginning around 1993? :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

I lived in the middle of a middle-upper class neighborhood in suburbia. Our house had a in-ground swimming pool and I walked to and from kindergarten. I actually live within 2 miles of that house and the median income in my area is 35% above state average. Not a really threatening environmemt... but you're right bad things don't happen to "average" people.

How exactly are guns out of control in this country? Because people have them? See, since I'm educated when it comes to firearms and been around them my whole life I've never met a gun I was afraid of... I've met countless people though...

Any environment can become threatening in a second. Safety based on location and perceived economic security or status isn't necessarily unfounded, but the element of surprise can put those who think they are safe at a huge disadvantage when something goes awry.

Whether you believe it or not we all participate in social contracts wherein we agree to act a certain way, based on who we are, where we are, our own personal path in life determines whether we decide to break the contract on any given day. That may sound simplistic, but it's the true essence of our daily interaction. Here's an example of someone who decided the normal moral contracts of his life didn't apply anymore.

56 year old man married 30 yrs is diagnosed with lung cancer after working in an environment with asbestos as a younger man. 6 mths later he can no longer work. Times get tough in his slightly higher upper middle class neighborhood because he is no longer working. His wife tells him to move out. He does. His grown children help him get an apartment. 6 months later he is deteriorating and his wife re-marries two weeks after their divorce is final.

He feels completely betrayed. Two weeks later he walks into the wife's house at 6 pm (she's living in their old house with new husband) sits down at their dinner table while they are having dinner. Immediately tells the ex wife she should have waited for him to die. Shoots her three times.

Calls 911 and upon police arrival explains himself and goes to jail. During his arraignment a few days after he killed her, he spends 15 minutes explaining to the judge why he did it. He is perfectly calm about it. He dies 6 weeks later in jail awaiting trial.

This a perfect example of someone who decided that his wife had treated him so poorly that unspoken social contracts no longer applied to him. He waited until he had very little left to lose and acted outside the norm.

This is a symptom being played out every day in our country. Adam Lanza decided society or his parents or something had failed him. He found the worst way to break all the rules. He decided he had nothing left to lose.

Social contracts are normally based on morals and traditions. In the US we have allowed our young people to ignore morals, in fact we celebrate immoral activity in song and film. Why anybody follows the rules anymore is beyond me. I'm surprised we don't see more killings.

Remember, your safety can go away by a chance encounter anywhere at any time. If you run into the wrong person, who has decided they are no longer going to play by the rules, whether they are a victim or a predator, it really doesn't matter after the fact. A simple decision in a strangers heart and mind can result in your harm, no matter what neighborhood you're in.

[Dahoss2002]

I know enough to realize that your average human being shouldn't need a gun in order to survive.
When the President no longer needs secret service protection then maybe I wont. Ohh but shit I'm just an average human. Guess I don't need protection. The government has got my back.

[Robert Goren]

If you think having a gun in your home makes you safer, then put a sign outside so the bad guys will stay away.

[newtothegame]

If you think having a gun in your home makes you safer, then put a sign outside so the bad guys will stay away.
Or you could just put a sign out saying "UNPROTECTED LIBERAL WHO BELIEVES ALL GUNS SHOULD BE BANNED".

That should keep them away.....:lol:

[elysiantraveller]

Any environment can become threatening in a second. Safety based on location and perceived economic security or status isn't necessarily unfounded, but the element of surprise can put those who think they are safe at a huge disadvantage when something goes awry.

Whether you believe it or not we all participate in social contracts wherein we agree to act a certain way, based on who we are, where we are, our own personal path in life determines whether we decide to break the contract on any given day. That may sound simplistic, but it's the true essence of our daily interaction. Here's an example of someone who decided the normal moral contracts of his ...

Look at Ralph dropping some Lockean Liberalism there! Nice!

[Clocker]

Or you could just put a sign out saying "UNPROTECTED LIBERAL WHO BELIEVES ALL GUNS SHOULD BE BANNED".

That should keep them away.....:lol:


http://www.trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2013/02/full-24914-128782-neighbor_sign.jpg

[Tom]

Clocker.....that is perfect!
Can you imagine doing that? :lol::lol::lol:

[HUSKER55]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Clocker]

http://www.gunssavelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/wisconsin2.jpg.

[JustRalph]

Look at Ralph dropping some Lockean Liberalism there! Nice!

Well, I don't know how to respond to that. I had to look Lockean Liberalism up.

I just posted that off the top of my head. I guess it is in line with your mention

Thanks for enlightening me. :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

Let's publish a list of houses of gun owners too. Oh wait somebody tried to that and the gun owners objected. Wonder why? May because it made them a target for thieves looking guns?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/25/us/new-york-gun-permit-map/

[horses4courses]

I've raised two kids.
Have to say that I always slept better at night knowing there was no gun in the house.
If I felt that intruders were a risk that I couldn't handle myself, then being armed was an option.
Luckily for my family, I never had to go there.
Way too many kids die unnecessarily due to unsecured firearms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us/children-and-guns-the-hidden-toll.html?_r=0

[Clocker]

Way too many kids die unnecessarily due to unsecured firearms.



Those kids died due to criminally negligent parents.

If a toddler was playing in the street and got run over, would you say that the kid died due to a car?

[elysiantraveller]

Well, I don't know how to respond to that. I had to look Lockean Liberalism up.

I just posted that off the top of my head. I guess it is in line with your mention

Thanks for enlightening me. :ThmbUp:

You basically outlined Locke's state of nature and social contract theory. They are essentially the foundation's of American democracy. Tocqueville originally coined the phrase when visiting America and being confused by how we even function as a society. He determined that we are entrenched in this philosoohy of "Lockean Liberalism" and that's what makes American democracy different. If you follow our trajectory to the present and see how we differ from European democracies it becomes pretty obvious that we developed differently. Thats Lockean Liberalism.

[JustRalph]

You basically outlined Locke's state of nature and social contract theory. They are essentially the foundation's of American democracy. Tocqueville originally coined the phrase when visiting America and being confused by how we even function as a society. He determined that we are entrenched in this philosoohy of "Lockean Liberalism" and that's what makes American democracy different. If you follow our trajectory to the present and see how we differ from European democracies it becomes pretty obvious that we developed differently. Thats Lockean Liberalism.

Great stuff, thanks very much :ThmbUp:

It's amazing that this theory and the actual way of life endures this many years later. Pointing out that there are more and more people willing to act outside these social contracts gives me no joy. None whatsoever.

We could discuss the reasoning behind that for days.

[fast4522]

You have to like the seniors.

[HUSKER55]

NO SHIT!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[horses4courses]

Strange that your senior is QE2.
Must have been an outtake from her Bond appearance.

[classhandicapper]

Hunting and target practice aside, the ironic part of this is that it's the attitudes and social policies of the left on some issues that is leading to greater poverty and crime which in turn is causing people to want and need more freedom to carry guns to protect themselves.

[TJDave]

Hunting and target practice aside, the ironic part of this is that it's the attitudes and social policies of the left on some issues that is leading to greater poverty and crime which in turn is causing people to want and need more freedom to carry guns to protect themselves.

The irony is that more crime is just a perception. In the past two decades crime has decreased, significantly.

[incoming]

The irony is that more crime is just a perception. In the past two decades crime has decreased, significantly.


I disagree, read this. http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/us/violent-crime/index.html

[classhandicapper]

The irony is that more crime is just a perception. In the past two decades crime has decreased, significantly.

If law enforcement improves, the crime stats may go down for awhile as long as those policies are in place. NY might be an example of that.

However, whatever the stats are now, I think many people recognize that we are in a long term social and economic decline. They look around them and also see the current long term path as negative. So they want guns to protect themselves for when the sh!t finally hits the fan.

To fix it long term, you have to fix the value system of the country. IMO that isn't happening given we are currently on the fast track to moral relativist hell.

[fast4522]

On the southern border of New Hampshire there is a sharp rise of heroin overdose cases, Southern New Hampshire is not alone just across the border in Massachusetts the same thing. The drug trade has the police busy, just last week we had several shot, one in the head with no suspects. Fix the value system of the country you say, put people back to work and fix shit later.

[classhandicapper]

On the southern border of New Hampshire there is a sharp rise of heroin overdose cases, Southern New Hampshire is not alone just across the border in Massachusetts the same thing. The drug trade has the police busy, just last week we had several shot, one in the head with no suspects. Fix the value system of the country you say, put people back to work and fix shit later.

Yes, I agree economics (jobs) is a huge cyclical factor in crime stats, but IMO the underlying long term problem is the value system of the country has gone to hell.

[HUSKER55]

how come the obvious is never dealt with, moral turpitude. The "criminals" that commit these crimes have chosen a lifestyle. It is a personal choice. Skin color, religion, party affiliation and etc have no bearing. It is an individual choice.

[classhandicapper]

how come the obvious is never dealt with, moral turpitude. The "criminals" that commit these crimes have chosen a lifestyle. It is a personal choice. Skin color, religion, party affiliation and etc have no bearing. It is an individual choice.

Even if you argue that some people are very disadvantaged by their environment, IMO you should then be trying to address the core reasons for that environment and not just putting a band-aid on the problem with welfare, food stamps, more police etc ..

One of the core reasons is all the out of wedlock children. It's tough to escape poverty if you have children before you are finished being educated, employed, financially secure etc.. with 2 parents. With 1 parent, it's close to impossible.

We should be promoting marriage before children, not having children until one or both parents are employed and financially capable of leaving a bad neighborhood and taking care of a child, saving money over reckless consumption on unnecessary material things etc...

Instead we are so busy protecting the freedom of people to have whatever lifestyle and relationship they want (which of course they SHOULD be free to do), that we wind up practically promoting things that can be demonstrated to produce poor results for individuals and society.

Idealism is idealism. Reality is reality. When they conflict, you have to go with reality, truth, etc.. We have to objectively admit that some behaviors and choices are superior to others and then promote them while protecting freedoms as a secondary matter.

[HUSKER55]

So , you are saying that moral values are a result of jobs? If they had a job they would not shoot? JMHO, but those two are not related.

Parents have an obligation to teach decent values and set an example.

If that were true, then I know how to put everyone to work tomorrow morning at 7 AM and so do you. So do the powers that be. I am talking long term productive jobs.

if you and I are the only two that know how to do that,....then all I have to say is God help us!

You do realize that is a very scary thought? :D

[classhandicapper]

So , you are saying that moral values are a result of jobs? If they had a job they would not shoot? JMHO, but those two are not related.



Some people that don't have jobs get desperate enough to commit crimes they would otherwise never consider. Doesn't make it right, but it's understandable.

On the flip side, as long as we are talking about values, if we had a more generous society for charitable giving and volunteer work we might have less crime due to unemployment. My guess is that during the depression people were WAY more giving than they are now.

[JustRalph]

how come the obvious is never dealt with, moral turpitude. The "criminals" that commit these crimes have chosen a lifestyle. It is a personal choice. Skin color, religion, party affiliation and etc have no bearing. It is an individual choice.

Because that would be expecting personal responsibility

Your point about "no bearing" doesn't apply anymore. Everybody has an excuse.

Parents are excused when their kids go bad. Kids are excused because they have bad parents. It's a great piece of magical social engineering. We have literally found an excuse for every sector of society. Young, poor, minority, there's an excuse out there. Even the rich now get a pass due to affluenza.

When Hollywood movie stars die due to drug overdoses we watch on television while they are praised for days. Recently a well known movie star overdosed in spite of everyone who knew him confessing that they knew he was a severe heroin addict. It was acceptable to them. A few days after his death, video footage of him buying $5000 worth of heroin was uncovered. He was standing in front of an ATM "making the buy" from well known drug dealers. Still images from the ATM camera were aired on television while commentators lamented the shameful state of such a glorious actor. :bang:

"He was a gifted artist" was apparently his excuse.......

[JustRalph]

Some people that don't have jobs get desperate enough to commit crimes they would otherwise never consider. Doesn't make it right, but it's understandable.

On the flip side, as long as we are talking about values, if we had a more generous society for charitable giving and volunteer work we might have less crime due to unemployment. My guess is that during the depression people were WAY more giving than they are now.

Your first paragraph is very rare in my experience. Normally it's a predator mentality. Not a desperate criminal. We coddle predators in this society. Young men with guns are predators. Not desperate heads of household.

We have a hugely generous society that gives more than any other on the planet. It's a joke. The real difference in your Great Depression analogy is that the country was made up of intact families. They stuck together, mostly. Today there are millions of kids without fathers.

[BlueShoe]

It would seem that the Obama Administration has found a new way to attack the Second Amendment and the right of free citizens to keep and bear arms. They are now targeting the banks that gun manufacturers and dealers have a business relationship with, and now the banks are denying them access to banking services. Put simply, choke off the money and you choke off the business.
www.ocregister.com/articles/gun-617351-business-government.html (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/gun-617351-business-government.html)

[Tom]

Hitler did that to the Jewish stores.
Similarities continue.
Same type of person, just not as violent. But philosophically similar people.
Just ask a Kennedy - they supported both of them.

[FantasticDan]

GA law now in effect, showdown at the convenience store! Fortunately one of the guys had good sense..

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/georgia-showdown-guns-everywhere

The police chief seems really thrilled with this new law.. :bang:

[Tom]

Guns are essential to our health.
Not only we need to have them, we need to have them paid for for us.

[GaryG]

Same law in Tennessee....if you have a carry permit you can go wherever you want except into a school. Better that upstanding and righteous citizens like yours truly should be armed rather than just the crooks and thugs.

[Tom]

Yes.
And, as we see in the GA conflict above, the two men solved it themselves, with no givernment intervention. No big, cumbersome, intrusive organization was needed.

[FantasticDan]

Yes.
And, as we see in the GA conflict above, the two men solved it themselves, with no givernment intervention. No big, cumbersome, intrusive organization was needed.Hell yeah, solved it themselves they done did. Course one of the guys got himself arrested when he was solving it himself, but hey, at least the po-lice ain't the givernment :ThmbUp: :blush:

[JustRalph]

The guy was arrested for disorderly conduct for being an asshole. Plain and simple. He had no right to demand anything from the other guy.

Depending on the exact charge, it might be as light as a parking ticket. Either way he is a dumbass. I would have told him to shove it too. concealed carry is the answer.

I have run into guys with guns on their shoulders here in Texas. A few with slung rifles handing out pamphlets. We have a bunch of idiot "open carry" types out of Ft Worth who like to stand on corners and hand out pamphlets to people. Just in case all those people coming from California need to study up on the law. :lol: