Question for owners, trainers, racing secs

[ultracapper]

4th race at SA today Roger Stein entered Luckbox Sam with Severino up and Harness Mentality with Couton up. This morning I'd noticed that Couton was moved to Luckbox Sam and Delgadillo was named on Harness Mentality. Since then, Harness Mentality has been scratched.

1) Does all this moving of jockeys around cost anybody any money?
2) Does Severino get paid?
3) Did Delgadillo have to give consent to be named from what I think now looks like a horse that was always intended to be scratched?
4) Does Delgadillo get paid?
5) Does Stein have to pay the track anything for moving jocks around and/or scratching horses?
6) Does Stein have to explain himself to anybody?

[Appy]

4th race at SA today Roger Stein entered Luckbox Sam with Severino up and Harness Mentality with Couton up. This morning I'd noticed that Couton was moved to Luckbox Sam and Delgadillo was named on Harness Mentality. Since then, Harness Mentality has been scratched.

1) Does all this moving of jockeys around cost anybody any money?
2) Does Severino get paid?
3) Did Delgadillo have to give consent to be named from what I think now looks like a horse that was always intended to be scratched?
4) Does Delgadillo get paid?
5) Does Stein have to pay the track anything for moving jocks around and/or scratching horses?
6) Does Stein have to explain himself to anybody?

1) Delgadillo lost his ride pay
2) Yes
3) No, and it is possible that horse was scratched due to the rider change being unpalatable
4) Rider only gets paid to exit the starting gate aboard his mount.
5) No
6) May have to give reason for scratch

[Al Gobbi]

In California you have to have a rider named at the time of the draw. In this case both riders were drawn as alternates to be listed on the horses since no firm call was given at the time of entries being taken.

[chadk66]

varies from state to state

[v j stauffer]

4th race at SA today Roger Stein entered Luckbox Sam with Severino up and Harness Mentality with Couton up. This morning I'd noticed that Couton was moved to Luckbox Sam and Delgadillo was named on Harness Mentality. Since then, Harness Mentality has been scratched.

1) Does all this moving of jockeys around cost anybody any money?
2) Does Severino get paid?
3) Did Delgadillo have to give consent to be named from what I think now looks like a horse that was always intended to be scratched?
4) Does Delgadillo get paid?
5) Does Stein have to pay the track anything for moving jocks around and/or scratching horses?
6) Does Stein have to explain himself to anybody?

1) There is no " moving " of jockeys. Both riders were named as alternate. The jockey's name applied to the horse means absolutely nothing. The office can put whoever they wish in that spot. It is in no way binding. The early proofs of the pp's will have that name. They'll be changed for the official Form that goes to press. Naming of alternates is a way of protecting an owner or trainer who for whatever reason wasn't able to secure a jockey at the times the races were drawn. They can put whoever they choose on their horse as long as it's done by scratch time.

2) See answer to question #1.

3) Not sure how you read the horse was " always " intended to be scratched. As for Aggie being named the is an agreement between trainer and agent to name on before scratch time.

4) No. For a rider to receive a jocks fee he must pass the scale on his way out to ride the horse. After that if the horse is scratched he will receive a jockeys fee. The start of the race is not the criteria.

5) No. He does have to state a reason for the scratch in a field of only 8. In larger fields, especially with also eligibles, no reason for scratching is necessary.

6) Only the second half of answer #5.

[Stillriledup]

There you have it UC, right from a man with jocks agent experience in So Cal.

[ultracapper]

Thanks to all. To the untrained eye, it looks like moving around jockeys.

[ultracapper]

Vic, you've been/are a jockey's agent. Can you explain something about the 9th race Saturday at Santa Anita?

Maldonado has had a great deal of success with Jeff Bonde. #8 in the 9th, Unbridled Loyalty was rode by Maldonado last time, and looks very competitive in here, yet Maldonado ends up on #2 trained by Eoin Harty, a guy he rarely ever rides for, and a horse that seemingly is no more favorable in this race than Bonde's horse. And Bonde turns to Quinonez, a guy he rarely ever uses. Why would Maldonado leave a competitive horse from a barn he has had a great deal of success with and move to a horse from a barn he very seldom has anything to do with? And why would Bonde then turn to a jock he seldom uses on what seems to be a very well meant entry?

Same subject, but an aside. There are times I can not make heads or tails why Rafael Bejarano, the leading jockey in the colony by daylight, ends up on some of the mounts he's on. I can't think of a specific instance, but in general, there have been numerous times he has seemingly had multiple choices in a race, and he ends up on what is very obviously not the best option, and the race result goes on to prove it.

Your input is appreciated.

[v j stauffer]

Vic, you've been/are a jockey's agent. Can you explain something about the 9th race Saturday at Santa Anita?

Maldonado has had a great deal of success with Jeff Bonde. #8 in the 9th, Unbridled Loyalty was rode by Maldonado last time, and looks very competitive in here, yet Maldonado ends up on #2 trained by Eoin Harty, a guy he rarely ever rides for, and a horse that seemingly is no more favorable in this race than Bonde's horse. And Bonde turns to Quinonez, a guy he rarely ever uses. Why would Maldonado leave a competitive horse from a barn he has had a great deal of success with and move to a horse from a barn he very seldom has anything to do with? And why would Bonde then turn to a jock he seldom uses on what seems to be a very well meant entry?

Same subject, but an aside. There are times I can not make heads or tails why Rafael Bejarano, the leading jockey in the colony by daylight, ends up on some of the mounts he's on. I can't think of a specific instance, but in general, there have been numerous times he has seemingly had multiple choices in a race, and he ends up on what is very obviously not the best option, and the race result goes on to prove it.

Your input is appreciated.

First rule of thumb when trying to solve the "who rides who" puzzle. Don't try.

There are a myriad of factors that can go into who ends up riding particular horse. They almost always have nothing to do with something as simple as which horse a jock and his agent think is best. I had Rosario 28 months. I'll bet it was less than 10 times where the decision came down to something as simple as who do we think is the best horse that day. Hardly ever happened.

Just a couple of examples. Remember I have no personal knowledge on this particular situation.

Bonde chose to enter late and Maldonado's agent did not want to anger Eoin Harty.

Jeff and Edwin collectively decided this horse isn't running for Maldonado. Sometimes change just for change's sake works out.

Sometimes a trainer will tell an agent don't turn around Harty. I'm entering in here just to take a look but I'll probably scratch. Or I was forced by the owner to enter and I'll deal with that before scratch time.

How did Quinonez end up with the mount? This is an even tougher guessing game. Could be any one of a hundred things.

Because it might have been a late entry maybe many of the top guys were already taken.

He's been helping, working a lot of breezers, at Bonde's in the morning and Jeff throws him a bone.

Alonzo won a race for the owner when he had horses with different trainer.

The owner's wife's favorite letter is Q. Anything is possible.

As far as Bejarano is concerned. You asked and answered your own question.
You say you can't figure out why he ends up on what you perceive to be an inferior horse. Then in the same paragraph acknowledge that Rafael is the daylight leader in the standings.

That by definition means his agent Joe Ferrer, who is excellent BTW, is making the exact correct decision in most cases.

Best overall advice for this puzzle. Remember it's a HORSE race. Not a JOCKEY race. Concentrate the bulk of your work on that fact.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Stillriledup]

Good post Vic, thanks.

I want to discuss your "who rides who" puzzle.

I go into the handicapping puzzle armed with specific information on each runner, detailed trip notes, gallop out notes, company notes, bias notes, etc and with that info, i make an educated guess as to why a jock might be riding one horse over another. I especially like it when i see a jock "choose" a longer priced morning line horse that i suspect is better than the shorter priced horse they got off, that gives me more confidence.

I go into that puzzle knowing to never use any jockeys "opinion" to supersede my own, i have no problem telling myself a jock "picked the wrong horse".

I think if you go into the handicapping puzzle knowing that jocks often will not make a selection based on that day's race or the current talent of the horse, you will be better off. You'll also be better off knowing the talent of the runners and their prospects for that day's race rather than "trusting" a jock to "pick the winner for you".

There are many reasons, like you say, a jock can make a pick, but if you know your horse, the jocks "pick" won't really be much of a factor...in fact, if i love a horse i've been waiting for, i hope Bejarano picks against the horse, i'd rather take the shot that my information is accurate and take the higher price and cross my fingers.

Here's a question i have for you.....have you seen or experienced a situation where your jock lost out on a mount because the trainer (or owner) said they wanted to bet on their runner and wanted a less "known" rider in order to get a better win price? I've seen (my own opinion) situations up north where trainers wouldnt use Russell so they can get a better price....it probably happens rarely because if you can get Russell, you get Russell......have you seen this type of situation or heard about it with any other trainers going to a lesser rider to get a better win price?

[Fager Fan]

Here's a question i have for you.....have you seen or experienced a situation where your jock lost out on a mount because the trainer (or owner) said they wanted to bet on their runner and wanted a less "known" rider in order to get a better win price? I've seen (my own opinion) situations up north where trainers wouldnt use Russell so they can get a better price....it probably happens rarely because if you can get Russell, you get Russell......have you seen this type of situation or heard about it with any other trainers going to a lesser rider to get a better win price?

Wouldn't the winning purse be likely to pay out a lot more than a winning bet? And if the horse towers over the field so much that you can afford to trade out the best rider for a lesser rider, then the horse's odds are going to be low anyway. Doesn't make much sense to me for an owner or trainer to do.

[v j stauffer]

Good post Vic, thanks.

I want to discuss your "who rides who" puzzle.

I go into the handicapping puzzle armed with specific information on each runner, detailed trip notes, gallop out notes, company notes, bias notes, etc and with that info, i make an educated guess as to why a jock might be riding one horse over another. I especially like it when i see a jock "choose" a longer priced morning line horse that i suspect is better than the shorter priced horse they got off, that gives me more confidence.

I go into that puzzle knowing to never use any jockeys "opinion" to supersede my own, i have no problem telling myself a jock "picked the wrong horse".

I think if you go into the handicapping puzzle knowing that jocks often will not make a selection based on that day's race or the current talent of the horse, you will be better off. You'll also be better off knowing the talent of the runners and their prospects for that day's race rather than "trusting" a jock to "pick the winner for you".

There are many reasons, like you say, a jock can make a pick, but if you know your horse, the jocks "pick" won't really be much of a factor...in fact, if i love a horse i've been waiting for, i hope Bejarano picks against the horse, i'd rather take the shot that my information is accurate and take the higher price and cross my fingers.

Here's a question i have for you.....have you seen or experienced a situation where your jock lost out on a mount because the trainer (or owner) said they wanted to bet on their runner and wanted a less "known" rider in order to get a better win price? I've seen (my own opinion) situations up north where trainers wouldnt use Russell so they can get a better price....it probably happens rarely because if you can get Russell, you get Russell......have you seen this type of situation or heard about it with any other trainers going to a lesser rider to get a better win price?

Good stuff Riles. Of course you do realize that when you say the "jock" chose a particular horse over another it's almost always the agent who made the decisions. Elite riders don't want to be bothered with day to day questions like that. They pay their agents ALOT of money and expect them to make the correct calls. Also it allows the jockey himself to maintain cordial relations with the trainer who's horse he didn't ride. He just says something like. What? That damm agent of mine. We could have ridden your horse? I'll talk to him right away. Never does.

In all the time I worked for Joel only once did he make a choice. It was a two year old filly sprint stake at HP. Mark Glatt asked me about a filly who he really loved. Can't remember her name. I told him I'd already given the call to Kelly Breen on a filly named Bickersons who we had just ridden in the BC JUV FILLIES. Away from me Mark got Joel alone and convinced him to overrule my decision and ride his filly. Joel took me aside and said he'd rather stay with Glatt. Ok I said you're the boss. Normally I would have stood my ground much firmer. I didn't in this case though for two reasons.

1. This was very rare for Joel. Didn't want to shoot him down when he kinda got the squeeze play run on him. He is the boss. No reason to fall on my sword for one race.

2. Spinning Breen wouldn't damage me near as much because he was a Jersey guy and not likely to run many in So. Cal. anyway.

Needless to say Bickersons won by about 80 lengths. Our horse finished 4th. The purse was $100,000. Joel felt so badly he offered to pay me right then and there the amount I would have made had we stayed on Breen's filly. Of course I didn't take it. We were a team. Win or lose. He offered to take me and Tina to Morton's his treat. When I got finished there I think he wished he'd just given me the $1500 check.

Many agents look at stakes different that normal overnight races. They believe normal protocol goes out the window. Try to ride the winner no matter what and do damage control afterwards. I 100% subscribed to that theory. It made for some very upset trainers. Most at the end of the day understood. They pretty much had no choice. Most would cool off in a day or two. Some would be much more upset. Many times I would be " FIRED FOR LIFE ". Which usually translates to about two weeks in the penalty box. Joel never served more than about three weeks of a life sentence.

When I had Martin Garcia I did get "life" from one trainer and it stuck. Bruce Headley. Filly and mare stake at Santa Anita. Baffert had 4 nominated. Checked with him about ten days out and then again 3 days before entries. Bob told me 100% sure he was not running. Go ahead and ride another horse. Told Headley he had the call. Morning of entries BB calls and says he's changed his mind and entered a filly with Martin up. Here we go!

My hands were totally tied. Martin would have fired me on the spot if I took off Baffert's. Headley went ballistic. Fired me for life and took me to the stewards. That cost a handy little $500.

Was Baffert wrong? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Things change at a big stable. Garcia is his go to guy. He expects him to be available even at the 11th hour or later. All part of being an agent.

A jock may tell you after a race or workout he doesn't want to ride a certain horse. It's then the agents job to delicately wiggle away from that one without burning any bridges.

As far as trainers using lesser known riders to cash a bet. I never saw any indication of that on the So. Cal circuit. Besides with all the great research you do SRU. That one would stick out like a sore thumb after just a couple races.

Hope that helps.

[ultracapper]

Killer stuff Vic. Thanks for the input.

[iceknight]

Vic, this thread is amazing. thanks for sharing.

Also I like the touch of humor about the favorite letter Q. :)

[Stillriledup]

Wouldn't the winning purse be likely to pay out a lot more than a winning bet? And if the horse towers over the field so much that you can afford to trade out the best rider for a lesser rider, then the horse's odds are going to be low anyway. Doesn't make much sense to me for an owner or trainer to do.

Not necessarily. What if the winning owner is only a small partner in the horse, lets say the guy owns 10% of the horse and he's a big bettor...(of course, he would have to either be managing the horse or have the ear of the guy managing the horse).

Also, some people love to bet, they like they idea of 'putting one over". Also, its not the worst thing in the world to finish 2nd because you got outridden, many horses get to "keep the condition" while cashing the 2nd place check.

You are right, it doesn't make sense and many times if the connections can get the top guy, they're going to get him.....not everything that every owner does makes sense though! :D

[Stillriledup]

Vic,

Thanks for the tremendously great post and all the candid stuff, we do really appreciate the insight, certainly one of the best posts i've ever read on this site.

I do realize that most jocks agents are just doing the picking and choosing, i said jock as an all encompassing term.

That's a tough situation with Baffert/Headley, one of the damned if you damned if you don't, no matter what happened, you were no win, someone was going to be really pissed at you, but i guess its better to have Bruce pissed than Bob pissed, getting your client "fired" from Baffert would have been "not good" so you probably did the right thing. Perfect entry in your new book "so, you wanna be an agent!"

btw, "fired for life" is a great name for a horse, maybe someone will use that one day!

[Mineshaft]

Who is going to win more races Baffert or Headley? They made the right choice riding Bafferts horse even if it meant taking the fine from the stewards.



Vic do you plan on being an agent again?

[Mineshaft]

Vic, you've been/are a jockey's agent. Can you explain something about the 9th race Saturday at Santa Anita?

Maldonado has had a great deal of success with Jeff Bonde. #8 in the 9th, Unbridled Loyalty was rode by Maldonado last time, and looks very competitive in here, yet Maldonado ends up on #2 trained by Eoin Harty, a guy he rarely ever rides for, and a horse that seemingly is no more favorable in this race than Bonde's horse. And Bonde turns to Quinonez, a guy he rarely ever uses. Why would Maldonado leave a competitive horse from a barn he has had a great deal of success with and move to a horse from a barn he very seldom has anything to do with? And why would Bonde then turn to a jock he seldom uses on what seems to be a very well meant entry?

Same subject, but an aside. There are times I can not make heads or tails why Rafael Bejarano, the leading jockey in the colony by daylight, ends up on some of the mounts he's on. I can't think of a specific instance, but in general, there have been numerous times he has seemingly had multiple choices in a race, and he ends up on what is very obviously not the best option, and the race result goes on to prove it.

Your input is appreciated.






Don't know if its been mentioned but maybe one reason why Maldanodo didnt ride Bondes horse is because maybe Edwin told his agent don't put me on that horse its crippled.

[v j stauffer]

Who is going to win more races Baffert or Headley? They made the right choice riding Bafferts horse even if it meant taking the fine from the stewards.



Vic do you plan on being an agent again?

It's not in the cards at this time or the foreseeable future. In this business though you never say never.

[v j stauffer]

Don't know if its been mentioned but maybe one reason why Maldanodo didnt ride Bondes horse is because maybe Edwin told his agent don't put me on that horse its crippled.

I'm quite sure no trainer would ask a jockey to ride a horse he knew to be crippled.

I'm equally sure no trainer would enter and attempt to run a horse he knew to be crippled.

[Stillriledup]

I'm quite sure no trainer would ask a jockey to ride a horse he knew to be crippled.

I'm equally sure no trainer would enter and attempt to run a horse he knew to be crippled.

Crippled is a strong term that Mineshaft used.....but i do see horses who gallop out like they've been shot and are wheeled right back into the entry box, with *surprise* a new jockey and run right back, even though, their previous race suggests they need some time to recover from whatever ails them.

Do all cheap claimers get all the time they need to fully recover from what ails them? If not, than you could make a case that a trainer might just be rushing those horses into battle, can a trainer really tell an owner than his 5k claimer needs 9 months of R and R?

[ultracapper]

Particularly now in Cali where you get anywhere from $250 to $400 just to run around the track. 11th place, no problem, cash my $250. Don't know if that covers all fees or not, but it does make a deposit on the account.

Thank God for the Mr Cappuccinos and Destinos of SoCal horseracing. We always have 6 horses going anyway.

[thespaah]

There you have it UC, right from a man with jocks agent experience in So Cal.
Don't forget our friend Vic was/is also a Steward.

[Stillriledup]

Don't forget our friend Vic was/is also a Steward.

He's a jack of all trades for sure. :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

Good stuff Riles. Of course you do realize that when you say the "jock" chose a particular horse over another it's almost always the agent who made the decisions. Elite riders don't want to be bothered with day to day questions like that. They pay their agents ALOT of money and expect them to make the correct calls. Also it allows the jockey himself to maintain cordial relations with the trainer who's horse he didn't ride. He just says something like. What? That damm agent of mine. We could have ridden your horse? I'll talk to him right away. Never does.

In all the time I worked for Joel only once did he make a choice. It was a two year old filly sprint stake at HP. Mark Glatt asked me about a filly who he really loved. Can't remember her name. I told him I'd already given the call to Kelly Breen on a filly named Bickersons who we had just ridden in the BC JUV FILLIES. Away from me Mark got Joel alone and convinced him to overrule my decision and ride his filly. Joel took me aside and said he'd rather stay with Glatt. Ok I said you're the boss. Normally I would have stood my ground much firmer. I didn't in this case though for two reasons.

1. This was very rare for Joel. Didn't want to shoot him down when he kinda got the squeeze play run on him. He is the boss. No reason to fall on my sword for one race.

2. Spinning Breen wouldn't damage me near as much because he was a Jersey guy and not likely to run many in So. Cal. anyway.

Needless to say Bickersons won by about 80 lengths. Our horse finished 4th. The purse was $100,000. Joel felt so badly he offered to pay me right then and there the amount I would have made had we stayed on Breen's filly. Of course I didn't take it. We were a team. Win or lose. He offered to take me and Tina to Morton's his treat. When I got finished there I think he wished he'd just given me the $1500 check.

Many agents look at stakes different that normal overnight races. They believe normal protocol goes out the window. Try to ride the winner no matter what and do damage control afterwards. I 100% subscribed to that theory. It made for some very upset trainers. Most at the end of the day understood. They pretty much had no choice. Most would cool off in a day or two. Some would be much more upset. Many times I would be " FIRED FOR LIFE ". Which usually translates to about two weeks in the penalty box. Joel never served more than about three weeks of a life sentence.

When I had Martin Garcia I did get "life" from one trainer and it stuck. Bruce Headley. Filly and mare stake at Santa Anita. Baffert had 4 nominated. Checked with him about ten days out and then again 3 days before entries. Bob told me 100% sure he was not running. Go ahead and ride another horse. Told Headley he had the call. Morning of entries BB calls and says he's changed his mind and entered a filly with Martin up. Here we go!

My hands were totally tied. Martin would have fired me on the spot if I took off Baffert's. Headley went ballistic. Fired me for life and took me to the stewards. That cost a handy little $500.

Was Baffert wrong? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Things change at a big stable. Garcia is his go to guy. He expects him to be available even at the 11th hour or later. All part of being an agent.

A jock may tell you after a race or workout he doesn't want to ride a certain horse. It's then the agents job to delicately wiggle away from that one without burning any bridges.

As far as trainers using lesser known riders to cash a bet. I never saw any indication of that on the So. Cal circuit. Besides with all the great research you do SRU. That one would stick out like a sore thumb after just a couple races.

Hope that helps.
Thanks for the insightful and informative view.
I kind of figured that being an agent for a rider with above average skills could at one time or another create instances where the agent had to either put out a fire or follow " 'tis better to act now and beg for forgiveness later"..
In the above scenario, had you held out for Baffert, your rider could have ended up with no ride in that race at all.

[Stillriledup]

Thanks for the insightful and informative view.
I kind of figured that being an agent for a rider with above average skills could at one time or another create instances where the agent had to either put out a fire or follow " 'tis better to act now and beg for forgiveness later"..
In the above scenario, had you held out for Baffert, your rider could have ended up with no ride in that race at all.

its still worth it. Baffert runs a TON of graded horses and he's always running something in the triple crown, you gotta kiss that guys ring, no other way around it. :D

[v j stauffer]

Guys. Not riding Baffert's horse was NEVER EVER considered. He changed Martin's life. Made him a national name and very rich man.

No decision. No Negotiating. No talk.

When Baffert entered Headley got the bad news.

I got a trip to see the stewards.

[Mineshaft]

Guys. Not riding Baffert's horse was NEVER EVER considered. He changed Martin's life. Made him a national name and very rich man.

No decision. No Negotiating. No talk.

When Baffert entered Headley got the bad news.

I got a trip to see the stewards.


Exactly it didn't matter who you were going to ride, when Baffert calls that's who you riding end of story.

[thespaah]

Guys. Not riding Baffert's horse was NEVER EVER considered. He changed Martin's life. Made him a national name and very rich man.

No decision. No Negotiating. No talk.

When Baffert entered Headley got the bad news.

I got a trip to see the stewards.
Vic, I do not quite understand the rules as to why you were fined by the Stewards.
Can you give the short version explanation?

[Mineshaft]

Vic, I do not quite understand the rules as to why you were fined by the Stewards.
Can you give the short version explanation?




Once you give the call to a trainer you are pretty much obligated to ride that horse. If you want out some trainers will let you out. Headley let him out but not that easy as he took him to the stewards. Stewards frown upon taking a call and then switching to another horse at the last minute.

[v j stauffer]

Vic, I do not quite understand the rules as to why you were fined by the Stewards.
Can you give the short version explanation?


A jockey's agent may not give out two first calls in any race. Technically that's what I did. Yes I did give the call to Headley. When Baffert made the entry I didn't honor my original commitment. I spun Bruce. I was a nasty spin too. Graded Stake, 14 horse field, very late notice. Really put him in an awful spot.

When Garcia hired me he made it crystal clear that NO MATTER WHAT he expected us to ride first call for Baffert. When your boss tells you to do something you better do it or look for another job.

So off to the stewards we go. Hearing didn't take very long. Headley told his side of the story. I pleaded guilty. Case closed, thanks for playing, drive home safely. Oh and Mr. Stauffer please stop by the paymaster on the way out. She'll accept your $500.

Not sure but that amount may be a record for a simple " Failure to honor 1st call " sanction.

What can I say? I was a habitual offender. Stewards decided to send a strong message. I just looked at it as the price of doing business. I've heard that some jocks will pay those fines for their agents. None of mine ever offered:blush:

Other more experienced agents advised me strongly against my spinning ways. Don't burn bridges, look at the long run big picture they would say. I'm sure they were correct. However, I always looked at it as I work for ROSARIO, GARCIA, BAZE and I'll make my decisions based on what I believe is in their best interests. Was I taking a gamble with their future? I don't think so. If you're an elite, upper tier rider, which all three of those guys certainly are. Trainers are gonna find them and use them regardless if they think the agent is a jerk.

It's when you come back and need favors with a fringe guy that you better look out for them remembering your wicked ways. I pretty much new I wasn't likely to be in that position so all bets were off. In almost all cases I tried to ride the winner and mend political fences afterward.

Since all three guys are sailing along well at this time, especially Rosario, I guess I didn't damage them too badly.

(BTW, this WAS the short version. Things little quiet here today. No games until 6:30 tonight. San Rafael Men's over 40 basketball league)

Goof

[Mineshaft]

If an agent doesn't spin trainers then he/she probably is not doing a good job of agenting. It doesn't happen a lot but it does happen.

[v j stauffer]

If an agent doesn't spin trainers then he/she probably is not doing a good job of agenting. It doesn't happen a lot but it does happen.

Exactly. Obviously it's not an agents desire to disappoint or anger anyone. However, if it doesn't occasionally happen it means you have no business. Which is a thousand times worse.

[Stillriledup]

Vic, thanks again for the great info.

How about an elite jock taking a call for a "no name" trainer? When i see Bejarano (in 2014) take a call for joe Blow, i have to assume (should i assume?) that this low pct trainer had to really do some "convincing" to the agent to get Rafael on his horse....and, the story has to actually end up checking out, because if the trainer says "he's good, he will run great" and he does not run great, they might have trouble getting the top jock in the future....so i do give "extra credit" when i see a top rider show up for a low pct barn.

Is it safe to assume that the trainer really gave the agent a "Story" as to why that horse has a great chance to win? I know its possible the jock worked the horse in the morning and loved him, so, in some cases the trainer won't have to do much convincing as the horse did the talking FOR him, but i have to assume that on occasion, the low pct trainer has to make a good case for his horse and be right.

[v j stauffer]

Vic, thanks again for the great info.

How about an elite jock taking a call for a "no name" trainer? When i see Bejarano (in 2014) take a call for joe Blow, i have to assume (should i assume?) that this low pct trainer had to really do some "convincing" to the agent to get Rafael on his horse....and, the story has to actually end up checking out, because if the trainer says "he's good, he will run great" and he does not run great, they might have trouble getting the top jock in the future....so i do give "extra credit" when i see a top rider show up for a low pct barn.

Is it safe to assume that the trainer really gave the agent a "Story" as to why that horse has a great chance to win? I know its possible the jock worked the horse in the morning and loved him, so, in some cases the trainer won't have to do much convincing as the horse did the talking FOR him, but i have to assume that on occasion, the low pct trainer has to make a good case for his horse and be right.

Less than high profile trainers will sometimes have a difficult times securing a leading rider. It must be very frustrating for them. There are some excellent horseman who for whatever reason are not household names. They're trying to climb the success ladder like anyone else but it's a grind.

When I had Rosario I was extremely picky about who he rode for. I often felt terrible having to say no to Joe Blow but it was only business. My book was almost always full. If I had a morning with 4 calls from Sadler, 3 from the Dorf, 2 from Mitchell and one each from Marty Jones, Ron Ellis and Uncle Neil ( Drysdale ) I'd feel set. No need to take a flyer. If he'd gotten hurt riding for the no name I'd have kicked myself and he'd have justifiably asked what the hell are we doing on that guys horse? Where's he gonna take us?

Sometimes those smaller outfits are really in a bad spot. They'll lose owners because they can't get the elite guys. That's really rough to see.

Once in a while it goes the other way. Guy has a really nice horse that a "B" rider has been on. That jock better not slip even a little bit. The sharks will be swimming around that barn before feed time. Put my guy on. Those seconds and thirds will turn into wins with my guy. Puts tremendous pressure on the trainer. Very tough to stay loyal when the owner finds out they could have had Rosario. The agent would NEVER talk to the owner. That's taboo and could get you a fat lip. However there are very few secrets kept at the race track.

I was mildly aggressive. There are some very successful guys who were much more in your face than me. One guy would call any trainer whose horse had finished 2nd or 3rd. This is about 30 minutes or less after the race. Hey that 3rd would have been a win with my jock. I'll give you the call right now when he runs back in the same condition you got me. Whata ya say? It's a way of exploiting the emotions of the guy still stinging from just getting beat and believe me it works. Not my cup of tea. But very effective. It's also an "out" for a trainer that has to deal with disappointed owners. Well we'll get him back to the barn and see what we have in the next few days. But one thing we won't have to worry about is that shaky ride we got, most times the ride was fine, I've already got the leading rider lined up for next out. Let's go!!

Here's a true story: Name omitted. Had Rosario. Guy calls my home phone at 11:30pm. Sound asleep. Hey Vic it's ........ So sorry for waking you up. Man I'm in a bind. I've got 10 horses with this guy and can't get lucky and win a race. I'm afraid he's going to pull the horses and take them to another trainer. You gotta help me Vic. I'll owe you big time. Can Rosario ride my horse in Sub-2 for Sunday? We draw tomorrow, which was now today. Honey get me my book please. ............ I've got one for Sadler in there, just finished second. Please help me it's just one race for you. It's everything for me. OK OK I'll talk to John. He'll let me off so I can help you. It's just a maiden 25 and they might not get to it anyway. If they use it you go ahead and name Rosario. Thanks Vic I'll never forget your help.

Get to work an hour early to wiggle off the Sadler at 4:30 before the track opens and he doesn't want to be bothered with this trivial crap. He says what all top guys say. If you can get me Bejarano or Talamo or Gomez it's fine. If not you have to ride mine. More deals with the devil ensue. Get Talamo with the caveat I now owe his agent a favor. Capitalism in it's purest form.

11:00am draw time. " Sub-2" is going as the 9th with 14" Sadler's horse comes out with Talamo. ................'s horse comes out with the same "C" rider that's been on him all along and gotten him beat the last three times. NOT ROSARIO:mad:.

It NEVER pays to get mad as an agent. This time I didn't care. Call......... Are you &%$#%@#$% kidding me? You call me at home at 11:30. Give me that lame sob story, ask me to turn around Sadler, and then go back to the same *$%&#$ clown that got you in that spot. !@#$%^&**&^%#. Yeah he came by this morning. When I told him I was switching to Rosario he was really sad and upset. I just didn't have the heart to take him off. *&^%$%^&^%$.

Listen pal. You've got all my numbers right. Yeah. Write them on a BIG piece of paper and stick em. You'll never get Rosario again. Not in match race with one scratch. You're fired for LIFE! ( 3 weeks ). I gotta go have another call coming in. Ron Ellis. Vic you open in Sub-2? I just got turned around at the draw? Yeah. Sure. I'd love to ride that race for you. I'll name Rosario right now. Thanks Ron. Let's get lucky!!

[olddaddy]

The stuff from Stauffer is great stuff. Thanks for taking us on the inside.

[Stillriledup]

LOL wow, that's great Vic, fantastic stuff and yeah, i'd buy the book "so you wanna be an agent, track announcer, steward and basketball ref for old guys" :D

Sometimes you see a good horse in a low pct barn and they keep using the same anchor of a jock who keeps getting the horse beat and i know, thru handicapping, replay work,etc that the horse is good, but i just can't get a jock who can get it done.....that's good to know about the small barns, some of them just can't "pull" a top jock even if the horse is good, its like you as the agent just can't take the chance that your guy will end up on the ground riding for a barn you "dont know".

Fantastic stuff.

[Zydeco]

The stuff from Stauffer is great stuff. Thanks for taking us on the inside.

I agree....gret stuff Vic. Enjoy reading it.

[thespaah]

Exactly. Obviously it's not an agents desire to disappoint or anger anyone. However, if it doesn't occasionally happen it means you have no business. Which is a thousand times worse.
So I would imagine it is fair to say that a jock's agent is part time sales guy, part time politician.

[Stillriledup]

So I would imagine it is fair to say that a jock's agent is part time sales guy, part time politician.

And full time scapegoat! :D

[thespaah]

Less than high profile trainers will sometimes have a difficult times securing a leading rider. It must be very frustrating for them. There are some excellent horseman who for whatever reason are not household names. They're trying to climb the success ladder like anyone else but it's a grind.

When I had Rosario I was extremely picky about who he rode for. I often felt terrible having to say no to Joe Blow but it was only business. My book was almost always full. If I had a morning with 4 calls from Sadler, 3 from the Dorf, 2 from Mitchell and one each from Marty Jones, Ron Ellis and Uncle Neil ( Drysdale ) I'd feel set. No need to take a flyer. If he'd gotten hurt riding for the no name I'd have kicked myself and he'd have justifiably asked what the hell are we doing on that guys horse? Where's he gonna take us?

Sometimes those smaller outfits are really in a bad spot. They'll lose owners because they can't get the elite guys. That's really rough to see.

Once in a while it goes the other way. Guy has a really nice horse that a "B" rider has been on. That jock better not slip even a little bit. The sharks will be swimming around that barn before feed time. Put my guy on. Those seconds and thirds will turn into wins with my guy. Puts tremendous pressure on the trainer. Very tough to stay loyal when the owner finds out they could have had Rosario. The agent would NEVER talk to the owner. That's taboo and could get you a fat lip. However there are very few secrets kept at the race track.

I was mildly aggressive. There are some very successful guys who were much more in your face than me. One guy would call any trainer whose horse had finished 2nd or 3rd. This is about 30 minutes or less after the race. Hey that 3rd would have been a win with my jock. I'll give you the call right now when he runs back in the same condition you got me. Whata ya say? It's a way of exploiting the emotions of the guy still stinging from just getting beat and believe me it works. Not my cup of tea. But very effective. It's also an "out" for a trainer that has to deal with disappointed owners. Well we'll get him back to the barn and see what we have in the next few days. But one thing we won't have to worry about is that shaky ride we got, most times the ride was fine, I've already got the leading rider lined up for next out. Let's go!!

Here's a true story: Name omitted. Had Rosario. Guy calls my home phone at 11:30pm. Sound asleep. Hey Vic it's ........ So sorry for waking you up. Man I'm in a bind. I've got 10 horses with this guy and can't get lucky and win a race. I'm afraid he's going to pull the horses and take them to another trainer. You gotta help me Vic. I'll owe you big time. Can Rosario ride my horse in Sub-2 for Sunday? We draw tomorrow, which was now today. Honey get me my book please. ............ I've got one for Sadler in there, just finished second. Please help me it's just one race for you. It's everything for me. OK OK I'll talk to John. He'll let me off so I can help you. It's just a maiden 25 and they might not get to it anyway. If they use it you go ahead and name Rosario. Thanks Vic I'll never forget your help.

Get to work an hour early to wiggle off the Sadler at 4:30 before the track opens and he doesn't want to be bothered with this trivial crap. He says what all top guys say. If you can get me Bejarano or Talamo or Gomez it's fine. If not you have to ride mine. More deals with the devil ensue. Get Talamo with the caveat I now owe his agent a favor. Capitalism in it's purest form.

11:00am draw time. " Sub-2" is going as the 9th with 14" Sadler's horse comes out with Talamo. ................'s horse comes out with the same "C" rider that's been on him all along and gotten him beat the last three times. NOT ROSARIO:mad:.

It NEVER pays to get mad as an agent. This time I didn't care. Call......... Are you &%$#%@#$% kidding me? You call me at home at 11:30. Give me that lame sob story, ask me to turn around Sadler, and then go back to the same *$%&#$ clown that got you in that spot. !@#$%^&**&^%#. Yeah he came by this morning. When I told him I was switching to Rosario he was really sad and upset. I just didn't have the heart to take him off. *&^%$%^&^%$.

Listen pal. You've got all my numbers right. Yeah. Write them on a BIG piece of paper and stick em. You'll never get Rosario again. Not in match race with one scratch. You're fired for LIFE! ( 3 weeks ). I gotta go have another call coming in. Ron Ellis. Vic you open in Sub-2? I just got turned around at the draw? Yeah. Sure. I'd love to ride that race for you. I'll name Rosario right now. Thanks Ron. Let's get lucky!!
Fired for life....LOL.....I think you should take the approach I used as a bartender. When I got pissed off at a regular customer who'd gone past his tipping point, I would tell them "you're banned"....A week or two later I'd let them back in with a stern warning.
Sort of like when your parents really mean business. "this is the last time I'm telling you"...
LOL!!!
Thanks for sharing this stuff ....

[thespaah]

LOL wow, that's great Vic, fantastic stuff and yeah, i'd buy the book "so you wanna be an agent, track announcer, steward and basketball ref for old guys" :D

Sometimes you see a good horse in a low pct barn and they keep using the same anchor of a jock who keeps getting the horse beat and i know, thru handicapping, replay work,etc that the horse is good, but i just can't get a jock who can get it done.....that's good to know about the small barns, some of them just can't "pull" a top jock even if the horse is good, its like you as the agent just can't take the chance that your guy will end up on the ground riding for a barn you "dont know".

Fantastic stuff.
After finding out Vic's jack of all trades resume, I jokingly asked him about coming over to give me an estimate on some replacement windows. :lol:

[chadk66]

I remember one year, Dean Kutz was riding all my horses. I didn't have alot of horses, 12-18 or so. Every once in awhile his agent would spin me for one of the big stables. This would piss Dean off as we were good friends and both being from ND originally. And it never failed my horse would win or at least beat his. So I'd get the last laugh. But it's the way things go with horse racing. Everybody trying to do the best they can and you make split second decisions, some of which bite you in the azz. It was a very sad day when Dean died of throat cancer. Just an amazing guy.

[v j stauffer]

I remember one year, Dean Kutz was riding all my horses. I didn't have alot of horses, 12-18 or so. Every once in awhile his agent would spin me for one of the big stables. This would piss Dean off as we were good friends and both being from ND originally. And it never failed my horse would win or at least beat his. So I'd get the last laugh. But it's the way things go with horse racing. Everybody trying to do the best they can and you make split second decisions, some of which bite you in the azz. It was a very sad day when Dean died of throat cancer. Just an amazing guy.

I got to know Dean when I was at both the Woodlands and Ak-Sar-Ben. All class all the time. A lovely Gentleman. RIP.

[Shelby]

I have really enjoyed your stories, Vic.

[ultracapper]

Guys. Not riding Baffert's horse was NEVER EVER considered. He changed Martin's life. Made him a national name and very rich man.

No decision. No Negotiating. No talk.

When Baffert entered Headley got the bad news.

I got a trip to see the stewards.

If you ever get back in, you do an end around on Bruce and tell Karen what a wonderful gal she is. Looks like she's going to have the stable here pretty shortly anyhow.

[v j stauffer]

If you ever get back in, you do an end around on Bruce and tell Karen what a wonderful gal she is. Looks like she's going to have the stable here pretty shortly anyhow.

Won't work in that spot. She was madder than her dad. Oh well. They were justified in being so upset.

[Stillriledup]

Won't work in that spot. She was madder than her dad. Oh well. They were justified in being so upset.

Were they? They didnt understand that you have to ride for Baffert?

[Mineshaft]

Were they? They didnt understand that you have to ride for Baffert?






Oh they understood but I think what we really got them mad was that it was the morning of the draw and they really didn't have enough time to shop around for a rider plus im sure the other top jocks were taken.

[v j stauffer]

Oh they understood but I think what we really got them mad was that it was the morning of the draw and they really didn't have enough time to shop around for a rider plus im sure the other top jocks were taken.

Bingo. They understood fine. I think deep down they knew my hands were tied. That didn't make them any less PO'd. They have to look out for the best interests of the Headley barn.

I was the one who put them in an awful spot. I 100% understand why they got so upset. I would have as well.

[v j stauffer]

Were they? They didnt understand that you have to ride for Baffert?

They didn't care about Baffert. Why would or should they? I gave them a call. Exactly the same as giving someone your word. I reneged on that promise. End of story.

[fmolf]

thanks vic read the whole thread awesome inside info on machinations behind the scenes.Hope to hear you calling races soon......

"a good jockey cannot make a slow horse fast but a bad jockey can make a fast horse slower"...Anonymous racetracker

[Mineshaft]

They didn't care about Baffert. Why would or should they? I gave them a call. Exactly the same as giving someone your word. I reneged on that promise. End of story.





Probably one of the worst things being a jock agent is sometimes you have to spin a trainer and look out for your jock and yourself. You just hope it doesn't happen a lot. Trainers understand you have to ride the better horse but sometimes trainers think you have to ride there horse even though its not the best horse in the race. And im talking about trainers who win at a 2% clip wanting you to ride there horse over a 20% trainer. Some understand and some don't have a clue why you choose the 20% trainer over them.

[v j stauffer]

Probably one of the worst things being a jock agent is sometimes you have to spin a trainer and look out for your jock and yourself. You just hope it doesn't happen a lot. Trainers understand you have to ride the better horse but sometimes trainers think you have to ride there horse even though its not the best horse in the race. And im talking about trainers who win at a 2% clip wanting you to ride there horse over a 20% trainer. Some understand and some don't have a clue why you choose the 20% trainer over them.

The next trainer that understands getting spun will be the first. What they do understand is I gave them my word and then took it back. They couldn't care about the reasons. They care about their best business interests and nothing else. As it should be.

[Stillriledup]

The next trainer that understands getting spun will be the first. What they do understand is I gave them my word and then took it back. They couldn't care about the reasons. They care about their best business interests and nothing else. As it should be.

How was it in Headley's "best interest" to essentially "fire" You for "life"? Seems like his ego got in the way because the next time Garcia/Rosario is available, he won't use him on spite and go to a lesser rider who might cost him a race. Seems to me that his best interest would be to keep all his options open as far as rider choices in the future.

[v j stauffer]

How was it in Headley's "best interest" to essentially "fire" You for "life"? Seems like his ego got in the way because the next time Garcia/Rosario is available, he won't use him on spite and go to a lesser rider who might cost him a race. Seems to me that his best interest would be to keep all his options open as far as rider choices in the future.

One way of looking at it. But if you can't trust someone it's tough to do business with them. Fool me once................

There were many things I enjoyed about being an agent. Disappointing and or making trainers mad certainly wasn't one of them.

[thespaah]

How was it in Headley's "best interest" to essentially "fire" You for "life"? Seems like his ego got in the way because the next time Garcia/Rosario is available, he won't use him on spite and go to a lesser rider who might cost him a race. Seems to me that his best interest would be to keep all his options open as far as rider choices in the future.
Like Val Kilmer said in "REal Genius".."there lots of brands of Decaf on the market"...
In other words, So Cal has a very strong jockey colony.

[Edward DeVere]

Ah, yes, the "honorable" Bruce Headley.

Those of you with a short memory: Feel free to look around on the internet for Bruce Headley and Jess Jackson stories.

[Edward DeVere]

And then ask yourself: "Gee, I wonder if this was the only time in his life Bruce Headley was involved with something like this?"

[Stillriledup]

Like Val Kilmer said in "REal Genius".."there lots of brands of Decaf on the market"...
In other words, So Cal has a very strong jockey colony.

But there's still a "pecking order" and when Rosario and Bejarano were dominating the place, if you didnt get one of those guys, it was pretty hard to win.

[Mineshaft]

Ah, yes, the "honorable" Bruce Headley.

Those of you with a short memory: Feel free to look around on the internet for Bruce Headley and Jess Jackson stories.





why don't you just tell us the story?

[thespaah]

But there's still a "pecking order" and when Rosario and Bejarano were dominating the place, if you didnt get one of those guys, it was pretty hard to win.
You're leaving out the other part of the equation....The horse.
If the horse is in a good enough spot, the even with a middle of the road jockey, it will win.
How many times have we seen 10 lb bugs become 7 lb bugs become 5 lb bugs to losing their bug in the span of a few months?
This leaving much better veteran riders scratching their heads wondering why they were not getting the mounts on which the bug was crushing.
In the Winter of 81 or 82 I watched a previously unknown kid at Aqueduct ( Declan Murphy) win race after race.
It got to the point where this friend of mine who played NYRA races every day would bet almost every race where this kid had a mount.
The point is, in So Cal and NYRA there are so many good riders to choose from the pecking order. There are also some untested jocks who start getting mounts and winning. That because a trainer went to an agent and told them they needed a rider for this horse that is ready to fire....It happens.

[ultracapper]

If a horse is ready, there are 25 jockies in SoCal that won't screw it up 99% of the time. If the horse is ready, T Baze will get it home just as easily as Bejarano.

[thespaah]

If a horse is ready, there are 25 jockies in SoCal that won't screw it up 99% of the time. If the horse is ready, T Baze will get it home just as easily as Bejarano.
BINGO!!!!

[v j stauffer]

If a horse is ready, there are 25 jockies in SoCal that won't screw it up 99% of the time. If the horse is ready, T Baze will get it home just as easily as Bejarano.

BINGO BINGO!!

[thespaah]

BINGO BINGO!!
Ahh....The quote is from "Prizzi's Honor"....Very good!