Churchill Downs raising takeout

[Al Gobbi]

17.5 percent for WPS bets, 22 percent for exotics.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/money/2014/04/10/churchill-downs-take-bet/7565235/

[Stillriledup]

yes, it will "increase revenue" because the betting handles will remain exactly the same :rolleyes:

[cj]

Every time I think there is a glimmer of hope for racing, I get a swift kick in the ass.

Churchill Downs has decided to increase the amount it takes from each bet – a move that could add $8 million to its revenues and provide a similar amount to purses.

You just can't make up this kind of stupidity.

[thaskalos]

I predicted a while ago that the takeouts were going only one way...and it wasn't down.

When you see the successful racinos charging outrageous takeouts...what do you expect the other tracks to do?

[BlueShoe]

Takeout levels will now be at the same levels as Ellis and Turfway Parks. Wow, now that is really progress. :rolleyes:

[Robert Goren]

Just when they were going to get me to look at their product again by canning their announcer, they chase me away again. My guess is that the horsemen here are having a big laugh at the bettors here's expense. This is insult to all bettors.

[BlueShoe]

Just when they were going to get me to look at their product again by canning their announcer, they chase me away again. My guess is that the horsemen here are having a big laugh at the bettors here's expense. This is insult to all bettors.
Lets see how loud they laugh after handle declines sharply. They never learn, do they? A 1 1/2% raise in straight bets is bad enough, but 3% on exotics? That is huge, pure folly, imo.

[Al Gobbi]

I really believe this is being done to pawn racing and then when the handle figures drop sharply they can spin it to reduce the racing dates even more. CDI has become a casino company looking to cut racing to as little as possible.

[lamboguy]

Every time I think there is a glimmer of hope for racing, I get a swift kick in the ass.



You just can't make up this kind of stupidity.the higher the purses go, the worse the game gets

[Cholly]

I really believe this is being done to pawn racing and then when the handle figures drop sharply they can spin it to reduce the racing dates even more. CDI has become a casino company looking to cut racing to as little as possible.
What he says.

[Grits]

I loathe this place. They could remove all horses from the grounds tomorrow, and the place could go up in flames. I wouldn't give a tinker's damn. I have this much disdain for the men that run this place. They personify the greed that has ruined this sport. They care nothing about horses, or bettors, or anyone else.

Sound harsh? I could care less.


2013 FULL YEAR





Record net revenues of $779.3 million, a 7% increase over 2012
http://www.churchilldownsincorporated.com/our_company/company_news/2014/02/26/churchill_downs_incorporated_reports

[horses4courses]

I'm done with TwinSpires.
Went to sign-on there recently and my account was locked out.
"Contact Customer Services @ 1-800-blah, blah"

True enough, I haven't played there much this year.
Last year, I gave them over $20K in handle.
This year, just a few small deposits that disappeared quickly.

I find the online product at Xpressbet and TVG to be much better.
Video on TVG online is by far the best for my laptop right now.
Those two ADWs can have my business this year.

Then CDI goes and raises the takeout at CD.
Well bust my britches.......... :eek:

[JustRalph]

Blame Collmus and his excessive demands!!!

[Tall One]

Takeout levels will now be at the same levels as Ellis and Turfway Parks. Wow, now that is really progress. :rolleyes:



Number of bets I placed at those two tracks in five years? 1.

Ever notice there's never any good news in thoroughbred racing anymore? :confused:

[Zydeco]

Just read the article......cracked me up.......17.5% of nothing is????? Thet just don't get it

[DeanT]

Reaction from some fans and customers on social media.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/some-reaction-to-churchill-downs.html

[Cannon shell]

the higher the purses go, the worse the game gets
In 2002 MSW at CD was $40300
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=CD&dt=06/01/2002&ctry=USA&race=6


In Fall 2013 MSW at CD was $41000
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=6&BorP=P&TID=CD&CTRY=USA&DT=11/22/2013&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

I am not in favor of any takeout increases but blaming purses like CDI (and you) does is ridiculous. Maybe someone should ask them why they expanded their racing schedule in September? Maybe someone should ask them why a $12 million dollar TV is needed in a sport that is in a (their words) "depression".
CDI doesnt waste 2 seconds when cutting purses if handle is off even slightly. The backsides are a disgrace. They do petty things like the cut the free programs and charge grooms to cash checks and for rent.

They arent the friend of the horsemen or player. They are a casino company that has the rights to the most famous (and profitable) race in the country. They dont care about racing anymore than Colonial Downs does or Greenwood or Penn National gaming or Gov Cuomo. As soon as you come to grips with the fact that these groups and people not only dont care if you play at their tracks but actually want you to stop so they can justify cutting racing further or stop altogether the more predictable these announcements become.

So organize boycotts and stop playing CDI tracks. That is pretty much exactly what they would like you to do so they can continue to highlight the decline of pari-mutual wagering as Evans puts it.

[GMB@BP]

In 2002 MSW at CD was $40300
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=CD&dt=06/01/2002&ctry=USA&race=6


In Fall 2013 MSW at CD was $41000
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=6&BorP=P&TID=CD&CTRY=USA&DT=11/22/2013&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

I am not in favor of any takeout increases but blaming purses like CDI (and you) does is ridiculous. Maybe someone should ask them why they expanded their racing schedule in September? Maybe someone should ask them why a $12 million dollar TV is needed in a sport that is in a (their words) "depression".
CDI doesnt waste 2 seconds when cutting purses if handle is off even slightly. The backsides are a disgrace. They do petty things like the cut the free programs and charge grooms to cash checks and for rent.

They arent the friend of the horsemen or player. They are a casino company that has the rights to the most famous (and profitable) race in the country. They dont care about racing anymore than Colonial Downs does or Greenwood or Penn National gaming or Gov Cuomo. As soon as you come to grips with the fact that these groups and people not only dont care if you play at their tracks but actually want you to stop so they can justify cutting racing further or stop altogether the more predictable these announcements become.

So organize boycotts and stop playing CDI tracks. That is pretty much exactly what they would like you to do so they can continue to highlight the decline of pari-mutual wagering as Evans puts it.

I noticed you used fall mdn special purse in one and not the other, is the upcoming meet mdn races at 41k?

[Stillriledup]

In 2002 MSW at CD was $40300
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=CD&dt=06/01/2002&ctry=USA&race=6


In Fall 2013 MSW at CD was $41000
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=6&BorP=P&TID=CD&CTRY=USA&DT=11/22/2013&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

I am not in favor of any takeout increases but blaming purses like CDI (and you) does is ridiculous. Maybe someone should ask them why they expanded their racing schedule in September? Maybe someone should ask them why a $12 million dollar TV is needed in a sport that is in a (their words) "depression".
CDI doesnt waste 2 seconds when cutting purses if handle is off even slightly. The backsides are a disgrace. They do petty things like the cut the free programs and charge grooms to cash checks and for rent.

They arent the friend of the horsemen or player. They are a casino company that has the rights to the most famous (and profitable) race in the country. They dont care about racing anymore than Colonial Downs does or Greenwood or Penn National gaming or Gov Cuomo. As soon as you come to grips with the fact that these groups and people not only dont care if you play at their tracks but actually want you to stop so they can justify cutting racing further or stop altogether the more predictable these announcements become.

So organize boycotts and stop playing CDI tracks. That is pretty much exactly what they would like you to do so they can continue to highlight the decline of pari-mutual wagering as Evans puts it.

This is exactly right. They purchased hollywood park but when they didnt get slots they sold the place to the killers, CD turned Hollywood Park into Hollywood Parkinglot.

[Grits]

Cannon, we know all of this--these things you point out that are present not only at Churchill, but Colonial and elsewhere. Aside from telling them to take their Kentucky Derby and step to hell along with their "Old Kentucky Home" and not betting one red cent on the entire two days of Oaks and Derby, WHAT else would you suggest we, as bettors, do?

I can pass on every bit of it, so fast it can make one's head swing. There are too many others tracks I can travel for--Belmont and Saratoga--being two of them.

[Stillriledup]

Reaction from some fans and customers on social media.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/some-reaction-to-churchill-downs.html

The anger is all well and good, but its better to just silently walk away never to return. CD doesn't give a hoot that people are mad, getting mad about it only hurts the people who get mad, no need to get mad, just get even, don't play 1 dollar on their races, its not really hard either, they have a decent weekend derby weekend, but other than that weekend, the stuff they churn out is largely forgettable.

[Poindexter]

Two things.
1) Isn't having a casino company owning racetracks a conflict of interest to horse racing and should it not be prohibited? Aren't there enough industries in horse racing that deserve protection?
2) If the revenues are down shouldn't the decision makers be replaced with people with better vision? Or if there is a legitimate excuse for the revenues falling short, then why raise the takeout?

Regarding raising the takeout :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They can't be this stupid, so obviously they have other motivations.

[Grits]

The anger is all well and good, but its better to just silently walk away never to return. CD doesn't give a hoot that people are mad, getting mad about it only hurts the people who get mad, no need to get mad, just get even, don't play 1 dollar on their races, its not really hard either, they have a decent weekend derby weekend, but other than that weekend, the stuff they churn out is largely forgettable.

Only a coward goes quietly into the night!!!!!

[Cannon shell]

I noticed you used fall mdn special purse in one and not the other, is the upcoming meet mdn races at 41k?
I used last meet raced.

[Stillriledup]

Only a coward goes quietly into the night!!!!!


Showing outrage says "we care deeply". My question to you would be "why care so deeply about this particular track and this particular company??" Why not just stop betting them and find another track to play?

Why give them the privilege of our caring, why not just "not care" and disappear, doesnt that hurt them more if they know we can just walk away like its no skin off our backs?

[Tall One]

Cannon Shell nailed it. They are a casino company that owns racetracks. SRU named Hollywood, but look at FG's debacle of a meet, and the ongoing issues at Calder. If I were Arlington and Hoosier Park, I'd get the hell away if I could. Look at this clown and tell me he's ever hit a trifecta. Also, check out the article I linked. Hadn't seen it posted, but looks like CDI is being investigated.

Article (http://www.finance.yahoo.com/news/faruqi-faruqi-llp-launches-investigation-233000716.html)



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk5Wl16IYAADjzs.jpg

[Cannon shell]

Cannon, we know all of this--these things you point out that are present not only at Churchill, but Colonial and elsewhere. Aside from telling them to take their Kentucky Derby and step to hell along with their "Old Kentucky Home" and not betting one red cent on the entire two days of Oaks and Derby, WHAT else would you suggest we, as bettors, do?

I can pass on every bit of it, so fast it can make one's head swing. There are too many others tracks I can travel for--Belmont and Saratoga--being two of them.
Honestly there really isnt anything anyone can do.

They do nothing without a long term plan which is why they are a huge success on wall street. CHDN was trading at around $40 a share a few years ago. They are at $85 a share today.

They want casino gaming in KY. That hasnt gotten any closer to reality in a decade. It is very hard for them to cry poor when they have record revenues. The new approach might be expand racing in Sept to stress racing revenues but look like they give a damn about the industry. Now they reduce purses for entire fall meet. Horsemen from out of town have a lot more options in Nov including their own track in FG and GP being open. Fall meet tanks. Spring meet has tepid stal apps. They preemptively strike to "keep purses at the same levels" knowing that backlash from increase will surely impact numbers. Around begining of June purse decrease due to soft business announced. Horsemen blamed for short fields. Spring meet has big declines. Now CDI has more ammo for a "casino to save the industry" push. If it doesnt work you will see days cut, Sept meet goes away, proclamations from Evans that parimutuals are bad bet, racing in depression, etc." And on and on.

The difference obviously between CDI and everyone else is the huge cash cow the Derby is. They will never look to comletely kill racing at CD but would probably love to copy the Colonial 6 days model if they thought they could get away with it.

Everyone thinks drugs or takeout or lasix or PETA is the biggest issue facing racing. I think that thinking is naive. All those issues are ancillary to a huge number of tracks no longer desiring to be in the racing business. CDI, Mountaineer gaming, Greenwood, Penn, and Gov Cuomo would love to see it go away. Who has faith that w/o Frank that the Stronach tracks will not be radically different after his passing (he is in his 80's)? In a contracting industry keeneland's revenues will be dramatically reduced. LA Downs recently sponsered legislation cutting their days from 80 to 30. Why cant that be 30 to 6 in a year or 2? Delaware would probably get out of racing if they could. Colonial is probably done. Ellis isnt owned by a billionaire. Monmouth is trying but doesnt have a lot of wiggle room. Name a jurisdiction that isnt decidedly minor league that is on the upswing?

[Grits]

Showing outrage says "we care deeply". My question to you would be "why care so deeply about this particular track and this particular company??" Why not just stop betting them and find another track to play?

Why give them the privilege of our caring, why not just "not care" and disappear, doesnt that hurt them more if they know we can just walk away like its no skin off our backs?

Because THIS has been the most gouging, the most greed riddled aspect of this sport. What do you think HANA has fought for, for so long, and so hard?

Silence, in all its forms--is acceptance--whether one bets their tracks again or not. In fact, in this case, your walking away would be a show of concern only for yourself. This would indicate no care for others who, like you, fuel the game each day.

In this life, change has never come about through silence. Where would we be today if, as a country, if as individuals, we did as you suggest?

Next shareholder's meeting: "Our handle's dropped? You reckon it was the take out hike. No one complained. No one said a word"?

[DeanT]

More quotes (one from Jeff P) from CDI, Keeneland and a couple of others in a new article explaining the takeout hike.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/money/2014/04/10/churchill-downs-take-bet/7565235/

[NJ Stinks]

Name a jurisdiction that isnt decidedly minor league that is on the upswing?

Oaklawn.

But I find your posts most interesting.

[Grits]

Cannon, I sure hope you retired from training. All of this is simply getting worse and worse by the day. Though lately, it seems more like the hour.

As for Colonial, if I were a trainer, I wouldn't get out bed and pull my boots on for a 6 day race meet. No way.

At this point, my favorite thought is looking towards Belmont Stakes Day. Don't know how long it'll remain with us, but its still on the horizon, at least. Though as you say, of course, Cuomo wants it gone.

[GMB@BP]

I have made a few good decisions in my life, getting out of racing at a young age has to be right up there.

[Tall One]

Marty Maline, executive director of the KHBPA that includes owners and trainers, said he expects horseplayer groups to be upset but believes the change will be noticed mostly by big bettors.

"When you don't have alternative forms of gambling (casinos), you have to search for purse money in other forms," Maline said. :rolleyes:


David Switzer, executive director of the Kentucky Thoroughbred Association, declined to comment.

[andtheyreoff]

Oaklawn.

But I find your posts most interesting.

Tampa, too. And not major league yet, but Indiana has a chance to step up this year.

Because THIS has been the most gouging, the most greed riddled aspect of this sport. What do you think HANA has fought for, for so long, and so hard?

Silence, in all its forms--is acceptance--whether one bets their tracks again or not. In fact, in this case, your walking away would be a show of concern only for yourself. This would indicate no care for others who, like you, fuel the game each day.

In this life, change has never come about through silence. Where would we be today if, as a country, if as individuals, we did as you suggest?

Next shareholder's meeting: "Our handle's dropped? You reckon it was the take out hike. No one complained. No one said a word"?

Exactly, Grits. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

SRU, if no one complains, how are they supposed to know that players don't approve, and that if they want more business, they should lower the takeout? If players keep silent, what incentive does Churchill have to lower their rates?

[andtheyreoff]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I saw this gem in the bloodhorse article about the subject:

Track officials noted that Churchill has fallen under the $1.2 million threshold in terms of average daily on-track wagering during its live meets. Kentucky statute sets the maximum takeout rates for tracks under $1.2 million in average daily handle, and Churchill will put those rates in place. The rates are the same at Turfway Park and Ellis Park.

That has to be the dumbest statute of all time. Why should players from all over the country be punished for fans not showing up to Kentucky tracks?

[Cannon shell]

Oaklawn.

But I find your posts most interesting.
True but they are an isolated case that has benefited greatly from the instant racing and being privately owned by racing people.

[ArlJim78]

what a kick in the teeth, the more I read their comments and think about it, the angrier I get and I'm left unable to think of a really good reason not to dump Churchill completely from my wagering.

[cj]

So organize boycotts and stop playing CDI tracks. That is pretty much exactly what they would like you to do so they can continue to highlight the decline of pari-mutual wagering as Evans puts it.

So would you suggest betting more to encourage another takeout increase? If they don't want our business, fine. What else can a bettor do?

[Cannon shell]

Tampa, too. And not major league yet, but Indiana has a chance to step up this year.




Id say that Tampa has plateaued. Dont know how much more growth they have, not to mention that Mrs Thayer is the only racing person in her family. When she passes (She is in her early 70's) the track may wind up being sold. Who is investing in non-casino tracks these days?

The last time I was in Indiana the betting pools were pretty weak.

[Cannon shell]

So would you suggest betting more to encourage another takeout increase? If they don't want our business, fine. What else can a bettor do?
Nothing. Bet something else. I'm not saying that I'd support them. Just making the point that they don't care either way. You bet their product, they make money. You dont they have more ammo to bring to Frankfort for their real goal.

They are right in one thing. The paradigm has shifted. They are a racetrack company that may well benefit greatly by encouraging customers not to bet.

[Cannon shell]

So would you suggest betting more to encourage another takeout increase? If they don't want our business, fine. What else can a bettor do?
Remember a conversation we had a few years ago about the direction of the business and how convinced I was that people were being distracted from what is really going on? I was just pessimistic then. Now i think I underestimated the stupidity of those in power who actually want racing to thrive.

[Stillriledup]

Tampa, too. And not major league yet, but Indiana has a chance to step up this year.



Exactly, Grits. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

SRU, if no one complains, how are they supposed to know that players don't approve, and that if they want more business, they should lower the takeout? If players keep silent, what incentive does Churchill have to lower their rates?

If they're too stupid to know that all players disapprove of getting prices raised on them, they're more hopeless than i currently give them credit for.

[Stillriledup]

Because THIS has been the most gouging, the most greed riddled aspect of this sport. What do you think HANA has fought for, for so long, and so hard?

Silence, in all its forms--is acceptance--whether one bets their tracks again or not. In fact, in this case, your walking away would be a show of concern only for yourself. This would indicate no care for others who, like you, fuel the game each day.

In this life, change has never come about through silence. Where would we be today if, as a country, if as individuals, we did as you suggest?

Next shareholder's meeting: "Our handle's dropped? You reckon it was the take out hike. No one complained. No one said a word"?

The problem is that "this sport" isnt a sport. Its a collection of individual racetracks that are just using horse racing so they can accept wagers and take a rake from the bets.

You say silence indicates no care, but the bottom line is that if someone does something wrong, society as a whole has to punish them. The best way to punish a business is to not patronize them. They could care less if we complain because if they knew anything about how gambling works, they would know that this takeout rise is going to cost them MORE money, they arent going to find 8 million in 'additional revenue" at the end of this experiment, which is a lock to fail, people will be asking other people "so where's this extra 8 million we were supposed to get?"

[BIG49010]

Bettors can be a 2 edged sword also, stop betting and start writing to every congress and senate member in KY and explain this is sham by CD to push through casino gaming by ripping off the voters.

Arlington Park tried this back in 1997, it didn't work for Dick D. then, and I sure as hell hope it doesn't work this time either.

[ArlJim78]

as derby fever heats up, CDI comes to the rescue with a smelly wet blanket.

[Tom]

Only a coward goes quietly into the night!!!!!

When you leave the bank, take the damn pens with you! :lol:

CD.....people still bet that dump?
I would mow the lawn before I ever bet that place.

Don't support tracks that don't support you, if I many quote a great man! :rolleyes:

.

[Stillriledup]

They want to give the "Additional revenue" to the horsemen. They want to raise your prices so they can give more money to Bob Baffert and Steven Asmussen. Those guys (trainers and jocks) won't take 1 cent of a "cut" of their training/riding fees or the cuts of purses they receive from winning owners shares.

[Valuist]

I used to look forward to their spring and fall meet. Then the fall meet became a showcase for 2 year olds who'd been running at Kee, AP and TP and I stopped betting that meet. Then the fields for the spring meet got smaller and smaller and I've cut back considerably on that meet as well.

Now? I'll bet the Oaks and Derby day cards and that's it. Maybe Stephen Foster day if the fields are sizable.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Hard to blame Churchill Downs too much for raising takeout

Turnover has been falling so they have to look to make up the lost income from somewhere. Raising takeout is one way. The fact is racetracks were promised increased income from cutting turnover via rebates but it never happened. Instead their income went down. So they are not likely to believe in lower takeouts now. Instead they will do the opposite and try higher takeouts

In any case, each square foot of casino floor should return a higher ROI than each square foot of racetrack. So it makes good business sense to turn the racetrack into a casino

[DeanT]

Instead they will do the opposite and try higher takeouts


I'm sorry but I had to laugh at this. TRY higher takeouts. :lol:

Takeouts have been moving higher since 1935. Hell in 1975 blended was 14%

I think they've tried it long enough. If they try any harder, when we hit an exacta, we're going to owe the track money.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

DeanT

From the late 1990s onwards tracks were talked into lowering takeout for some players and they did so via rebates. The result has been a disaster for the tracks collectively. So I cannot see tracks wanting to lower takeouts anymore. The fact is that from the late 1990s takeout for some players dropped a lot. It is not true to say that takeouts have only been going up for the last few decades

Now the tracks are back on the path to higher tote takeouts. It is happening in other countries not just the USA (Australia has seen tote takeouts rising of late). I can only see the takeout going higher from here so enjoy the current level while it lasts

[DeanT]

Seabiscuit,

I am not going to get into your cottage debate on what you feel happened with rebating. That's neither here nor there.

We are talking about Churchill Downs. If you think Tracknet tracks are or ever have been a rebate track, I have a takeout hike to sell you.

[Robert Fischer]

The people that run horse racing don't see the system.

They run the business with short-sighted greed and fear, to benefit a small percentage of the total business participants. Self limiting. They can't see the inefficiencies in the system to make any moves.

From a superficial look, it appears that horse racing has been resigned to being treated as an entertainment addition to the main business(casino 'gaming').

[Seabiscuit@AR]

DeanT

I am not interested in debating rebates again. People can read other threads on that topic. But you have to acknowledge that the tracks have not only been raising takeouts in the last 15 years. They did lower them for some players

If some players like Dana Parham can make a killing from betting on the horses then the owners of the tracks are entitled to have a shot at making some money from the game too. If they think that raising takeouts is worth a try then they can use that approach. Lowering takeouts made some players rich but not the tracks and if I owned a track I would not be happy with that

[Stillriledup]

DeanT

I am not interested in debating rebates again. People can read other threads on that topic. But you have to acknowledge that the tracks have not only been raising takeouts in the last 15 years. They did lower them for some players

If some players like Dana Parham can make a killing from betting on the horses then the owners of the tracks are entitled to have a shot at making some money from the game too. If they think that raising takeouts is worth a try then they can use that approach. Lowering takeouts made some players rich but not the tracks and if I owned a track I would not be happy with that

It has nothing to do with rebates. Fans are leaving because the players they are betting against have gotten better and its become harder to win. Rebate players rebates come from the share of the ADW that books their bets, that "share" either goes to the player or in the pockets of the rebate shop, in other words, that money was 'going away' one way or another, who's pocket it ends up in has no bearing on how the non rebate player does..

[JimG]

How many people complaining about the takeout increase are betting the Kentucky Derby next month? That is why tracks continue to raise takeout without regard to the bettor.

[Tall One]

Combined Oaks/Derby handle is always throught the roof. I'm not buying any of this s--t sandwhich. As the poster said above, they're just trying to backdoor the state to get casinos in here, but the one's they're really shafting is us the player.

[Robert Goren]

When you start passing out blame, I think is best to see where the money is going. If you follow the money, you will find the real culprits. At worst, CDI is a coconspirator in this.

[cj]

I think it is pretty obvious why CD ran September last year. They wanted handle drops.

[magwell]

I just dropped my Twin Spires account as a small protest, I'm Expressbet only now and only play GP, Saratoga, Belmont and SA 90 % of the time anyways..........:cool:

[DeltaLover]

Boys, I think we are making way too much noise for something that seems like a very simple case!

Taking Action is always preferable..

Simply do not bet a single dime into CD short fields and keep on educating your fellow horse players about why it is for their benefit to do the same.

There is a lot of racing coming up in the next few weeks, so we will not fall short on choices.. NYRA offers much better racing than the recent past and I believe that is the best place to place your bets, while Woodbine and Monmouth are also interesting and although I am not a huge fan of California's tracks, I have to say that Santa Anita is also another possibility....

Peek your tracks and specialize on them pretending that CD simply does not exist...

Mainly due to addiction reasons, I have to admit that I will bet the Derby and probably a couple of races from the undercard. More than these few bets, CD is simply not going to see a single green dollar from Delta's action and guess what, I am not going to miss much!

Please do the same....

[DeanT]

The boys updated some of the social media reaction this morning.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/some-reaction-to-churchill-downs.html

[Grits]

The Keeneland Event Center will offer:





Simulcast wagering operations, which will be moved from its current location in the Keeneland Grandstand to a state-of-the-art sports book setting, featuring 200 individual work stations, multiple HD TVs, mutuel clerks and self-service wagering machines;
600 Instant Racing machines;
Casually elegant dining ranging from a café to a sports bar, providing food service for 200 people; and
Parking for 650 cars, including valet.
Keeneland has applied to the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission for a license to operate Instant Racing, a form of pari-mutuel wagering that allows fans to wager electronically on historic, or previously run, horse races.

So much for Keeneland's long held tout, "Racing As It Was Meant To Be." One knows casino gambling is a done deal, coming to and provided by Kentucky legislators. You don't spend millions on construction with a "maybe". No corporation invests this kind of money without the knowledge--we've got this one in the bag.


This is one of the stupidest license ever offered to or for anyone. They call this gaming? Its laughable, how gullible does Keeneland think people are.

They're not building this "event center" with 650 parking spaces to enable folks to bet on "Instant Racing" of heats that were run decades and decades ago. Wanting Breeders' Cup is simply a front. Its all about the casino. One at Keeneland, Churchill, Turfway, etc.

[BIG49010]

What is amazes me, KY Downs is the smallest, and the only one that understands the fans!

A few years from now, perhaps they are the Premier Meet in KY, and these others will figure it out.

[DeanT]

What is amazes me, KY Downs is the smallest, and the only one that understands the fans!



What they've done in only three years is astounding. Handle up about 300% to almost $3M a day. That's about what Oaklawn does per day.

For an interview with CJ who is the tracks' president - who is a bettor who plays tournaments etc - it's in this month's handicapping magazine here.

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanamonthly.html

[TheEdge07]

And come opening day at Churchill,

Will be handicapping there cards..
Boycott the track perion.

[ArlJim78]

Boys, I think we are making way too much noise for something that seems like a very simple case!

Taking Action is always preferable..

Simply do not bet a single dime into CD short fields and keep on educating your fellow horse players about why it is for their benefit to do the same.

There is a lot of racing coming up in the next few weeks, so we will not fall short on choices.. NYRA offers much better racing than the recent past and I believe that is the best place to place your bets, while Woodbine and Monmouth are also interesting and although I am not a huge fan of California's tracks, I have to say that Santa Anita is also another possibility....

Peek your tracks and specialize on them pretending that CD simply does not exist...

Mainly due to addiction reasons, I have to admit that I will bet the Derby and probably a couple of races from the undercard. More than these few bets, CD is simply not going to see a single green dollar from Delta's action and guess what, I am not going to miss much!

Please do the same....
this is close to my own thinking. Derby and Oaks days are special to me, and I'm not going to give them up, however I will be more selective on those days and bet less than in previous years. For my day to day action i'm going to put in a minimum threshold based on field size. My goal will be to at least drop my CD action by 50% or more this year. I'll put those dollars to work at other tracks which offer better returns.

[lamboguy]

i just heard that Churchill will now be distributing the signals for Finger Lakes and Canterburry for the up coming season. expect host fees to be hiked on those 2 tracks. and expect handles to drop as well

[whodoyoulike]

Hard to blame Churchill Downs too much for raising takeout I don't have any problem placing blame on them.

Turnover has been falling so they have to look to make up the lost income from somewhere. Raising takeout is one way. The fact is racetracks were promised increased income from cutting turnover via rebates but it never happened. Instead their income went down. So they are not likely to believe in lower takeouts now. Instead they will do the opposite and try higher takeouts

In any case, each square foot of casino floor should return a higher ROI than each square foot of racetrack. So it makes good business sense to turn the racetrack into a casino

What do you mean by "increased income from cutting turnover"?

[Jeff P]

FYI, I see the Churchill takeout increase as an opportunity for non CDI tracks.

A few minutes ago I found an email with a link to the following Tweet in my inbox:
https://twitter.com/Sham73/status/454740997579104256

@santaanitapark prez Tom Ludt says rolling doubles, with low 18 percent takeout, will return to the track when summer meet begins April 25.



I applaud them for this decision.



-jp

.

[Stillriledup]

FYI, I see the Churchill takeout increase as an opportunity for non CDI tracks.

A few minutes ago I found an email with a link to the following Tweet in my inbox:
https://twitter.com/Sham73/status/454740997579104256




I applaud them for this decision.



-jp

.


Funny how CDI can't even have a "good will" low takeout pick 5 like many other places do.

Good move on the Rolling DDs at low takeout, fans were totally jonesing for them to come back.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

whodoyoulike

By increased income from cutting turnover I should have typed "increased income from cutting takeout" instead of turnover

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Unfortunately Keeneland's plans for Instant Racing (or video racing) make good business sense. The average player is no chance to win these days betting on real racing. So why not cut the costs back massively and have video racing. The player cannot win with this game long term but nor can they win with real racing long term the way things are today

[Grits]

Released yesterday afternoon. Sorry for the late posting.

http://www.drf.com/news/churchill-downs-increases-takeout-rates

John Asher, a spokesman for Churchill, said the track’s management raised the takeouts to sustain current purse levels at the track. However, Asher acknowledged that Churchill and its horsemen will split the additional revenue raised by the maneuver under the terms of its existing live-racing contract, which gives horsemen 51 percent of wagering revenue and Churchill 49 percent.

Churchill would not have been able to legally raise its takeout rates if the track had not held its first-ever September meet last year. Under Kentucky law, tracks with an average live ontrack handle of $1.2 million or more a day cannot charge a takeout higher than 16 percent on straight wagers and 19 percent on exotic wagers. Tracks under the $1.2 million average threshold can charge 17.5 percent and 22 percent. Asher said the average did not dip below $1.2 million until last year, based entirely on the influence of the 12-day September meet. Though Churchill’s median ontrack handle is less than $1.2 million, the average ontrack handle number is heavily skewed upward by Derby Day and Oaks Day, when attendance tops 100,000.

[JohnGalt1]

Lets see how loud they laugh after handle declines sharply. They never learn, do they? A 1 1/2% raise in straight bets is bad enough, but 3% on exotics? That is huge, pure folly, imo.

Actually it is a 1.5 and 4 point increase. The percentage increase is 9% and 22%, if my lousy math and computer skills are correct. Feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

Let's make it sound as bad as it is.

************

As for my betting, I will play the first Friday and Saturday in May and again in 2015 unless they come to their senses.

Being that my bets are 75% win bets, the smaller increase there would affect me less than exotic players, I will still hold to my plan.

[stuball]

Effective immediately I am going to continue to download all
files but when it comes time to load tracks for calculating the
races all CDI properties will not be included in my calculate races.
this is shameful how long are we going to keep betting into this
nonsense...? Arlington-Churchill-Calder-Fairgrounds Let's see if we can negatively impact their results.................Please join those of us that are going to fight back...

Stuball :mad:

[Robert Goren]

I would like say one thing here. Some of the tracks mentioned here as alternatives actually have higher rates than CD will have after the increase.(in some cases much higher) I am all for boycotting CD, but I see little sense in rewarding places that beat CD to the punch by raising their rates years ago.

[BlueShoe]

Actually it is a 1.5 and 4 point increase. The percentage increase is 9% and 22%, if my lousy math and computer skills are correct. Feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

Let's make it sound as bad as it is.
My comments were based on the data given in the link on the OP, which stated that the takeout would rise from 16% and 19% to 17.5% and 22%. Perhaps a better wording would have been an additional 1.5% and 3% over what is now withheld. In any case, whichever way it is stated, bad news for sure, and the news is spreading, a few guys at my OTB site yesterday were griping about it.

[cj]

Funny how CDI can't even have a "good will" low takeout pick 5 like many other places do.

Good move on the Rolling DDs at low takeout, fans were totally jonesing for them to come back.

Of course they don't offer a low takeout P5, they didn't want handle to go up.

[PaceAdvantage]

FYI, I see the Churchill takeout increase as an opportunity for non CDI tracks.

A few minutes ago I found an email with a link to the following Tweet in my inbox:
https://twitter.com/Sham73/status/454740997579104256




I applaud them for this decision.



-jp

.18% isn't low.

[cj]

18% isn't low.

I agree 100%. Even these 14% P5s and such aren't low in my book, and I don't like labeling them as such. It sends the message that we think 14% is low...kind of a like a minimum threshold. What is low? I don't know, maybe 10 should be the bar?

[BlueShoe]

It would seem that the entire state of Kentucky horse racing is sliding into the doghouse. Keeneland with it's widely disliked fake main track and other problems, Churchill and the sharp takeout hike, minor league status of Ellis and Turfway, and so on. A 5 day meeting, successful as it may be, at Kentucky Downs, and a return to dirt at Keeneland will hardly resolve all the issues. How sad, Kentucky has long been regarded as the heart and soul of thoroughbred racing in the United States, and it's decline from former greatness is not something that long time fans are pleased to see.

[Longshot6977]

The CDI execs need another huge pay increase. Wow.

http://insiders.morningstar.com/trading/executive-compensation.action?t=CHDN

And the WPS increase from 16% to 17.5% is actually an increase of 9.4% while the exotic increase from 19% to 22% is actually an increase of 15.8%.

[Jeff P]

CHDN more than doubling total compensation packages for executives making bonehead decision to stick players with a takeout hike...

If that doesn't make you want to barf (or boycott CDI track signals) you might want to check yourself for a pulse.


-jp

.

[cj]

CHDN more than doubling total compensation packages for executives making bonehead decision to stick players with a takeout hike...

If that doesn't make you want to barf (or boycott CDI track signals) you might want to check yourself for a pulse.


-jp

.

Not to mention the gazillion dollar jumbotron.

[Grits]

CHDN more than doubling total compensation packages for executives making bonehead decision to stick players with a takeout hike...

If that doesn't make you want to barf (or boycott CDI track signals) you might want to check yourself for a pulse.


-jp

.

I don't have to bet the Oaks or the Derby, or any of their meets. I'm ok, I don't do this for a living. Its about the horses for me. If I make money, I'm pleased. If I lose money, I'm still ok.

CDI can implode tomorrow and I wouldn't care. Just wish more felt the desire to back up their anger by saying, "no, enough". You folks at HANA work hard, Jeff. These people haven't listened. Not at all.

[dannyhill]

I don't have to bet the Oaks or the Derby, or any of their meets. I'm ok, I don't do this for a living. Its about the horses for me. If I make money, I'm pleased. If I lose money, I'm still ok.

CDI can implode tomorrow and I wouldn't care. Just wish more felt the desire to back up their anger by saying, "no, enough". You folks at HANA work hard, Jeff. These people haven't listened. Not at all.
As was mentioned earlier CD has a larger agenda. CD is attempting to help their cause for getting slots. Over the past several years they have done things which make zero sense for the horse player or horseman.

Horse racing except for Derby week is no longer their main business or concern. Rather it is a side business or hobby unfortunately.

[Tom]

Bottom, if you bet races a CD, you are supporting this.
All the complaining does nothing - withholding money is the only way to react.

[Grits]

As was mentioned earlier CD has a larger agenda. CD is attempting to help their cause for getting slots. Over the past several years they have done things which make zero sense for the horse player or horseman.

Horse racing except for Derby week is no longer their main business or concern. Rather it is a side business or hobby unfortunately.

I'm pretty sure at Pace Advantage all of us, here, have understood this for a very good while. Though, indeed, the horsemen will benefit from the takeout increase. The bettor? Not one iota.

[Grits]

Bottom, if you bet races a CD, you are supporting this.
All the complaining does nothing - withholding money is the only way to react.

It IS the bottom line, Tom. There's no other way to put it.

[JustRalph]

CHDN more than doubling total compensation packages for executives making bonehead decision to stick players with a takeout hike...

If that doesn't make you want to barf (or boycott CDI track signals) you might want to check yourself for a pulse.


-jp

.

Arrogance personified. No concern for optics at all

[Stillriledup]

18% isn't low.

Its low if you put low in quotes.

[Stillriledup]

Bottom, if you bet races a CD, you are supporting this.
All the complaining does nothing - withholding money is the only way to react.

Completely agree. I won't be betting one dollar at Churchill, not the Derby, not the Oaks, not anything.

[Stillriledup]

I don't have to bet the Oaks or the Derby, or any of their meets. I'm ok, I don't do this for a living. Its about the horses for me. If I make money, I'm pleased. If I lose money, I'm still ok.

CDI can implode tomorrow and I wouldn't care. Just wish more felt the desire to back up their anger by saying, "no, enough". You folks at HANA work hard, Jeff. These people haven't listened. Not at all.

Good post, i love your passion, too bad more don't have half the passion you do.

I think it doesn't really come down to "listening" it really comes down to dollars and cents. People have not boycotted these takeout raise tracks enough for the people making the takeout decisions to do anything about it.

Also, they can just spin attendance and handle any way they want, they can blame the weather, the economy or some other natural disaster as to why their handle has gone way down but its never the takeout raise, nobody will ever say "We raised takeout and got crushed"

They'll never say it unless bettors make them cry uncle.

[BettinBilly]

I am an avid TwinSpires Mobile guy. Their Mobile app for Smartphones/Tablets rocks, and you get Free Bris PP's.

However, TVG is not half bad on a mobile device, AND, you get Free "TimeFormUS" PP's at TVG. I'd rather have TimeForm than Bris, especially on a Mobile Tablet. TimeFormUS is designed for Tablets, and the PP's are a breeze to read on a Laptop or a Tablet. Plus, I like the way they calculate the speed figs.

So I'm using TVG more and more. Decent platform, IMO, good enough for Smartphone use - that I do need on occasions - and free TimeFormUS. Not half bad.

[Dark Horse]

The players don't realize the power they have. Why not band together and boycott one track, such as CD in this case? See how they respond.

[Stillriledup]

The "Asmussen thread" got 10 times more views and 6 times more replies (so far) than this thread.

That's unfortunate.

[Tom]

Woodbine just opened a long meet. Great racing and 14.95 TO on win bets.
I will take WO over CD any day.

[ezpace]

Cannon, we know all of this--these things you point out that are present not only at Churchill, but Colonial and elsewhere. Aside from telling them to take their Kentucky Derby and step to hell along with their "Old Kentucky Home" and not betting one red cent on the entire two days of Oaks and Derby, WHAT else would you suggest we, as bettors, do?

I can pass on every bit of it, so fast it can make one's head swing. There are too many others tracks I can travel for--Belmont and Saratoga--being two of them.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
EXACTLY WELL SAID
FECK YOU CHURCHILL DOWNS
YOU WILL NOW BE TAR AN FEATHERED FOR LIFE
GREED MANAGEMENT STYLE
KY DERBY RESERVATIONS CANCELLED
ALL CHURCHILL MGMT TRACKS NOT PLAYED
27MILLION$ A YR MGMT SALARIES..
F U FU FU

[DeanT]

Some folks are trying to get the message out. It may not help, but as a horseplayer advocacy group, it certainly needs to be promoted the best we can.

Thanks to Paulick and Tom LaMarra and the BH for running the stories. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/84348/hana-revises-track-ratings-churchill-drops

[Robert Goren]

As was mentioned earlier CD has a larger agenda. CD is attempting to help their cause for getting slots. Over the past several years they have done things which make zero sense for the horse player or horseman.

Horse racing except for Derby week is no longer their main business or concern. Rather it is a side business or hobby unfortunately.Bingo!

[lamboguy]

CHDN stock was as high as $96 this and has dropped $11 so far. not that i am a fundamentalist, but when i look at the insider transactions to that equity, it looks like they are jumping ship right now. on a technical basis the stock has dropped with the biggest thing that i always look at in equity's in my world its called "VOLUME OFF THE TOP" and this equity possess that quality right now. it looks like its headed south to $70 right now, if $70 don't hold you could get $50 or better out of this one. this stock could be a potential train wreck.

[Robert Goren]

CHDN stock was as high as $96 this and has dropped $11 so far. not that i am a fundamentalist, but when i look at the insider transactions to that equity, it looks like they are jumping ship right now. on a technical basis the stock has dropped with the biggest thing that i always look at in equity's in my world its called "VOLUME OFF THE TOP" and this equity possess that quality right now. it looks like its headed south to $70 right now, if $70 don't hold you could get $50 or better out of this one. this stock could be a potential train wreck.There is nothing like a falling stock price to put pressure on management to change things.

[ezpace]

Effective immediately I am going to continue to download all
files but when it comes time to load tracks for calculating the
races all CDI properties will not be included in my calculate races.
this is shameful how long are we going to keep betting into this
nonsense...? Arlington-Churchill-Calder-Fairgrounds Let's see if we can negatively impact their results.................Please join those of us that are going to fight back...

Stuball :mad:
******************************
A-1 post NOW FOR THE STATED ACTION NEEDED
at ALL there poorly managed racetracks

[lamboguy]

There is nothing like a falling stock price to put pressure on management to change things.-horse racing doesn't look like it means as much as other forms of gambling. this stock might be going down if they are running into a roadblock with online poker or other casino related issues.

online poker is going to be the next big windfall in the gambling business once it gets legalized. if the senate goes over to the republicans this time around and then a republican gets elected president, the future of online poker will be very bleak.

the part where they are allowing takeout to go up along with host and signal fees don't make to much sense. that company does not benefit that much by the hikes. Churchill downs would be better off with a healthy racing industry in my opinion.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

One of the stories on this said that CD can only raise takeout because turnover fell below a certain level. So isn't the easiest way to lower takeout at CD to bet more so that the turnover is above the threshold so they have to lower it again? Or once they raise takeout is there no requirement to lower takeout once it goes above this threshold?

[mickyfinn]

Very true. Lets hope they (Woodbine) get the opening date right on their billboards next year. They had April 20th as the opening day on all their billboards throughout the city, one problem, that was last year's date, this year's was of course the 12th. The error was corrected but how does somebody sign off on this and not know that the opening date was incorrect ?? How ????

[Robert Goren]

-horse racing doesn't look like it means as much as other forms of gambling. this stock might be going down if they are running into a roadblock with online poker or other casino related issues.

online poker is going to be the next big windfall in the gambling business once it gets legalized. if the senate goes over to the republicans this time around and then a republican gets elected president, the future of online poker will be very bleak.

the part where they are allowing takeout to go up along with host and signal fees don't make to much sense. that company does not benefit that much by the hikes. Churchill downs would be better off with a healthy racing industry in my opinion.The only way this makes senses is if they were pressured by the horse industry to get higher purses. There have been stories that the horsemen who run there are not happy with the purses. Most of the tracks in Kentucky have been under financial pressure for sometime. I don't anybody there believes that "instant racing" is the whole answer.

[cj]

The only way this makes senses is if they were pressured by the horse industry to get higher purses. There have been stories that the horsemen who run there are not happy with the purses. Most of the tracks in Kentucky have been under financial pressure for sometime. I don't anybody there believes that "instant racing" is the whole answer.

Nothing to do with it, all about getting alternate gaming.

[clocker7]

It makes me wonder where CD will locate their eventual racino. Infield? Existing structure like the press building? In a stand-alone structure out in the SW parking lots? Or in a downtown location on a fake reservation? ;)

[GMB@BP]

Nothing to do with it, all about getting alternate gaming.

I am sure the horseman though are hardly broken up about the raise in take, at least the majority.

[whodoyoulike]

... I don't anybody there believes that "instant racing" is the whole answer.


I saw this reference to "instant racing" in another earlier post. What exactly is this? Why would this be desirable in a gambling format?

Thanks.

[Robert Goren]

I saw this reference to "instant racing" in another earlier post. What exactly is this? Why would this be desirable in a gambling format?

Thanks. Nebraska will vote on it in this fall in an attempt to save horse racing in this state. The link below explains it. Many consider it a "glorified slot machine". It has worked well for Oaklawn Park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_Racing

[Robert Goren]

Nothing to do with it, all about getting alternate gaming.They are going to have to have more this to get it in Kentucky. They have a pretty big road block there preventing expanded gambling. He is not going away quietly.

[JustRalph]

Some coverage

[Longshot6977]

I don't anybody there believes that "instant racing" is the whole answer.

They may as well just use the 'Quick Pick' choice on some SAM's. I just can't imagine this type of betting works for horseracing. For a casino game, yes, for a horse race, no.

[levinmpa]

With dwindling field sizes at CD and now a higher takeout, my wagering dollars will not find there way into any pools there. Horseplayers must take a stand at some point. There are better signals to wager on these days.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren
I don't anybody there believes that "instant racing" is the whole answer.

The "instant idiots" do.

[duncan04]

Nebraska will vote on it in this fall in an attempt to save horse racing in this state. The link below explains it. Many consider it a "glorified slot machine". It has worked well for Oaklawn Park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_Racing

It basically is a slot machine. KY Downs has them. It does have stats for a previously run race at a random track. And then shows the stretch run of said race. Not sure how it affects payoff of the reels of the machine

[thaskalos]

I hope I live long enough to see the horseplayers unite, and do something constructive...like showing their muscle by boycotting a racetrack all year long -- just to prove that they are a force to be reckoned with.

We have all these tracks at our disposal on a daily basis; how much resolve does it take to turn our backs to one of them...just to prove a point?

[whodoyoulike]

I hope I live long enough to see the horseplayers unite, and do something constructive...like showing their muscle by boycotting a racetrack all year long -- just to prove that they are a force to be reckoned with.

We have all these tracks at our disposal on a daily basis; how much resolve does it take to turn our backs to one of them...just to prove a point?

I didn't realize how big a player they are in the horse racing and gambling arena. I'm still reading their 10-k, annual report etc. No wonder they're cocky. They even own BRIS!!

But, I know what you mean. I hate patronizing any business who ...

[clocker7]

I hope I live long enough to see the horseplayers unite, and do something constructive...like showing their muscle by boycotting a racetrack all year long -- just to prove that they are a force to be reckoned with.

We have all these tracks at our disposal on a daily basis; how much resolve does it take to turn our backs to one of them...just to prove a point?

One would think that market pressures would have forced a lower take somewhere along the line, instead of the steady climb over decades.

But maybe we are not dealing with a rational system here and never will be, if history is a guide; instead, with a collection of whales, loners, addicts and losers functioning as fiercely-independent contractors, completely resistant to cat-herding even if it was to their eventual advantage. The calling has a culture of its own.

[Stillriledup]

With dwindling field sizes at CD and now a higher takeout, my wagering dollars will not find there way into any pools there. Horseplayers must take a stand at some point. There are better signals to wager on these days.

This is true, hopefully enough people will refrain from betting this place for them to not see one dollar of the 8 million dollars they're expecting as "found money" in profits.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

When California raised the takeout a few years back there were calls for a boycott on Californian racing then. Have these Californian takeout raises made more money for the tracks than if the takeout had been left the same? Or has less money been collected?

[Charli125]

When California raised the takeout a few years back there were calls for a boycott on Californian racing then. Have these Californian takeout raises made more money for the tracks than if the takeout had been left the same? Or has less money been collected?

We obviously don't have access to specific revenue numbers, but seeing as they were down by over 200 million in handle, it's safe to say less revenue was collected.

[riskman]

It basically is a slot machine. KY Downs has them. It does have stats for a previously run race at a random track. And then shows the stretch run of said race. Not sure how it affects payoff of the reels of the machine

"Kentucky Downs offer 390 Instant Racing terminals in 14 unique titles with denominations ranging from $0.10 to $5.00."

http://www.kentuckydowns.com/instant-racing/instant-racing-at-kentucky-downs/

[DeanT]

Between FY2009-10 and FY2011-12 the handle dropped $552 million and the revenues dropped nearly $80 million.

Ironically, they have close to reversed the takeout hike, in blended terms, with the 14% pick 5 (was going to be a 23.68% bet) and the new 18% daily doubles (were 22.68%).

In year one, as Barry Meadow wrote here, the takeout hike projected to bring over $200M in total purses. Purses went down 5%. I believe they are in the $140 million range.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/meadow-horseplayers-face-even-more-ominous-issues-than-takeout/

[BlueShoe]

I don't anybody there believes that "instant racing" is the whole answer.
Heaven help us if it is. Not just for our sport, but if it portends the ongoing omminous trend of the dumbing down of America. We saw this happen in the casino industry, with the slot machine largely replacing the table game. Patrons no longer are willing to learn how to play blackjack or craps, instead choosing to sit like mindless zombies in front of a slot machine. Instant gratification, no thinking or decision making required, just shove in more money. This could be the future of horseracing, the tracks glorified slot parlors, just choose your variety?

[ultracapper]

When California raised the takeout a few years back there were calls for a boycott on Californian racing then. Have these Californian takeout raises made more money for the tracks than if the takeout had been left the same? Or has less money been collected?

At the same time they make a huge deal about their "player Friendly P5" or whatever they call it, and call it such because of the low take out. Same with the big DD push the past few months. Right in front of their faces they see the handles blow up for these bets, but can't put 2 and 2 together to see that the handles would grow by lowering the take in the other pools. It's quite the comedy of errors.

[BIG49010]

Between FY2009-10 and FY2011-12 the handle dropped $552 million and the revenues dropped nearly $80 million.

Ironically, they have close to reversed the takeout hike, in blended terms, with the 14% pick 5 (was going to be a 23.68% bet) and the new 18% daily doubles (were 22.68%).

In year one, as Barry Meadow wrote here, the takeout hike projected to bring over $200M in total purses. Purses went down 5%. I believe they are in the $140 million range.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/meadow-horseplayers-face-even-more-ominous-issues-than-takeout/

Any projection of how much handle would have to decrease to actually cost CD and the horseman revenue?

[Dark Horse]

I hope I live long enough to see the horseplayers unite, and do something constructive...like showing their muscle by boycotting a racetrack all year long -- just to prove that they are a force to be reckoned with.

We have all these tracks at our disposal on a daily basis; how much resolve does it take to turn our backs to one of them...just to prove a point?

With the exception of the KY Derby I will not bet at CD in 2014.

I'd start a separate boycott thread, but leave it to those who have been here longer.

[lamboguy]

With the exception of the KY Derby I will not bet at CD in 2014.

I'd start a separate boycott thread, but leave it to those who have been here longer.are you just going to not bet the Louisville track or do you mean all the Churchill Downs track that they own or distribute the signals for?

[Dark Horse]

are you just going to not bet the Louisville track or do you mean all the Churchill Downs track that they own or distribute the signals for?

Wherever their increase applies.

If the players don't send a sign they'll just keep doing this. But if players draw a line in the sand just once, that changes the whole dynamic.

Ideally, we want tracks competing for players by lowering the takeout. But that will never happen until players show some muscle.

[Grits]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/84381/mixed-reaction-to-churchill-takeout-increase

[Stillriledup]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/84381/mixed-reaction-to-churchill-takeout-increase

"The 2 dollar bettor won't notice"

:bang:

[whodoyoulike]

If I was a betting man, I'd bet Churchill Downs helped design the legislation which allowed a trigger point for increasing track take-outs.

[JustRalph]

Somebody has this bullshit saved somewhere. You can only say it so many ways and so many times . Probably a frigging macro on a computer.

"Kentucky horsemen expected backlash from Churchill Downs' decision to charge the maximum takeout rates allowed by state law, but they hope positives follow from increased purses that improve the racing product enough to outweigh those negatives."

The only thing this results in, is the 6-1 shot being a 5-1 shot, and a bunch of "horseman" who I lost respect for years ago, taking that money home with them.

[BIG49010]

If we can gather enough support for a boycott, perhaps by the Oaks they might get it through their heads this is bad idea, and lower them back.

[Stillriledup]

Somebody has this bullshit saved somewhere. You can only say it so many ways and so many times . Probably a frigging macro on a computer.

"Kentucky horsemen expected backlash from Churchill Downs' decision to charge the maximum takeout rates allowed by state law, but they hope positives follow from increased purses that improve the racing product enough to outweigh those negatives."

The only thing this results in, is the 6-1 shot being a 5-1 shot, and a bunch of "horseman" who I lost respect for years ago, taking that money home with them.

I didnt hear the horsemen try to save their own game by giving a small percentage of their winning purse, no owner, trainer or jock stepped up ...its all about the bettors, they pay for everything. Maybe Baffert or Asmussen can buy a new Mercedes with the increased purses at Churchill.

[thaskalos]

Somebody has this bullshit saved somewhere. You can only say it so many ways and so many times . Probably a frigging macro on a computer.

"Kentucky horsemen expected backlash from Churchill Downs' decision to charge the maximum takeout rates allowed by state law, but they hope positives follow from increased purses that improve the racing product enough to outweigh those negatives."

The only thing this results in, is the 6-1 shot being a 5-1 shot, and a bunch of "horseman" who I lost respect for years ago, taking that money home with them.
This is the exact same thing that they said when they used the casino profits to increase the purses...and we all saw how much the racing product improved as a result. :rolleyes:

[DeanT]

View of the CDI takeout increase from a Reno, NV sportsbook manager.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/churchill-downs-takeout-increase-view.html

[Seabiscuit@AR]

California takeout raises were signed into law in late 2010

I just had a look at Santa Anita Derby day from 2010 vs 2014 as a quick comparison of California takeout from before the takeout raise to after

Turnover does not appear to be down although the results are odd

2010 SA Derby Day
Track Attendance 40718
On track Handle $4,195,766
Intra-state Handle $4,023,968
Inter-state Handle $9,758,934

2014 SA Derby Day
Track Attendance 35241
On Track Handle $4,065,716
Intra-state Handle $4,236,406
Inter-state Handle $14,240,321

So handle on track and within California is near enough to the same with a very small rise in handle. But interstate handle has exploded and is up by over 40% in only 4 years which does not make much sense. Of course Santa Anita was all weather in 2010 and back to dirt in 2014 so maybe the interstate players have switched back to California racing with the switch back to dirt. But I doubt that is the reason as I would have thought that California based players would be as turned off/on the racing by the switch in surfaces as much as interstate players. So I went back and also checked 2005 which was when the SA Derby was dirt and before the switch to synthetic

2005 SA Derby Day
Track Attendance 38014
On Track Handle $5,849,667
Intra-state Handle $5,641,370
Inter-state Handle $11,169,681

From this it seems that the explosion in interstate Santa Anita Derby day handle in 2014 vs 2010 is not due to the switch back to dirt. In fact the result is again very odd. Californians have turned their backs on California racing since 2005 and dropped their handle by 30%. But people outside California have grown to love Californian racing and increased their handle by almost 30% from 2005 to 2014. But there was a drop in outside California handle between 2005 and 2010 that was close to the drop in handle inside California in the same period

What it suggests to me is that California racing must have done some deal after 2010 to bring some more money into the pools from outside California. Probably rebated money for the handle to grow so strongly (40% plus in 4 years). Might be simply money from the UK or another country

In any case it is impossible to work out what effect the takeout increases in California in 2010 have had as the money entering the pools in 2014 is not the same as that in 2010 or 2005. Some deal has been done to bring more money into the pools so you cannot make any apples to apples comparisons

These days you cannot work out what impact takeout raises have as everyone is on their own separate deal and their own separate takeout

[Stillriledup]

Great post Biscuit, well done.

[DeanT]

CA handle is a reporting change.

CHRIMS number for SA Derby handle this year was $19,948,160. They released handle at over $22M, Word is, that includes handle at all tracks for the day.

In other words, interstate handle should be taking with a giant grain of salt.

PS: There is no need to be Sherlock Holmes. The CHRB annual report reports revenue from handle in dollars and cents. The numbers above (~$80M in revenue down since the t/o hike) are accurate.

[RunDustyRun]

I would suggest that the explosion in interstate handle at Santa Anita is due to the pick five and reduced takeout....For the past two years, all I have played and focused on are the pick fives in CA and the pool has markedly grown over the last 12 months...in my opinion its the best/most profitable bet in racing..as for Churchill, I will probably still bet on Oaks/Derby Day and that will be it from me

[whodoyoulike]

California takeout raises were signed into law in late 2010

I just had a look at Santa Anita Derby day from 2010 vs 2014 as a quick comparison of California takeout from before the takeout raise to after

Turnover does not appear to be down although the results are odd ...

Since you seem to have the charts for those days readily available, the increase in take-out was supposed to also increase the number of horses running (increasing competition field sizes). How many horses ran for each of those days and how many ran in each of the SA Derby races (2005, 2010 and 2014)?

Thanks,

[DeanT]

Horseplayer and Kentucky resident Mike Maloney has harsh words for Churchill Downs.

'Horsemen Groups Bought Churchill's Pick-Up Line"



http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/horseplayer-mike-maloney-horsemen.html

[Stillriledup]

Horseplayer and Kentucky resident Mike Maloney has harsh words for Churchill Downs.

'Horsemen Groups Bought Churchill's Pick-Up Line"



http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/horseplayer-mike-maloney-horsemen.html

Do trainers not realize this is hurting the sport? They can't be that stupid.

Right?

[riskman]

Increasing CD pari-mutuel takeout from 16% to 17.5% on win, place and show bets, and from 19% to 22% on exotics is the fastest way I can think of to reduce handle of their existing player base and to put another barrier in place in attracting new players to the game.

[Stillriledup]

Increasing CD pari-mutuel takeout from 16% to 17.5% on win, place and show bets, and from 19% to 22% on exotics is the fastest way I can think of to reduce handle of their existing player base and to put another barrier in place in attracting new players to the game.

Like they're saying "the 2 dollar bettors won't notice". That's their position.

They might not notice the rate change and how it affects their bottom line, but since this is a churn game, a game where people don't bet one race and then skip the rest of the races till the end of their life, they will "notice" less money in their pockets, which means they bet less and tap out sooner. So, even if they don't know WHY they "tapped out" they bet less and run out of money sooner.

[thaskalos]

Like they're saying "the 2 dollar bettors won't notice". That's their position.

They might not notice the rate change and how it affects their bottom line, but since this is a churn game, a game where people don't bet one race and then skip the rest of the races till the end of their life, they will "notice" less money in their pockets, which means they bet less and tap out sooner. So, even if they don't know WHY they "tapped out" they bet less and run out of money sooner.

The $2 bettor is still playing the game...but he is not enough to sustain the bottom line.

[Stillriledup]

The $2 bettor is still playing the game...but he is not enough to sustain the bottom line.

I believe the key is to "cultivate" these 2 dollar bettors so some of them turn into 100 a race bettors and then eventually, hopefully, 1,000 per race bettors or more. Big bettors have to come from somewhere.

The key to any successful business, and you know this better than most, is to treat all your customers like gold, even the small ones, because word of mouth is huge in business, you have to keep everyone happy.

[thaskalos]

I believe the key is to "cultivate" these 2 dollar bettors so some of them turn into 100 a race bettors and then eventually, hopefully, 1,000 per race bettors or more. Big bettors have to come from somewhere.

The key to any successful business, and you know this better than most, is to treat all your customers like gold, even the small ones, because word of mouth is huge in business, you have to keep everyone happy.

I take perverse pleasure in watching peoples' expressions as they leave the track or OTB...and I would be very worried if my customers sported the same expressions when they exited my place of business. For an "entertainment" business...the vast majority of the departing customers don't appear "entertained".

[baconswitchfarm]

Horseplayer and Kentucky resident Mike Maloney has harsh words for Churchill Downs.

'Horsemen Groups Bought Churchill's Pick-Up Line"



http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2014/04/horseplayer-mike-maloney-horsemen.html


This price increase will hurt handle long term. But the truth is it will mean a short term profit increase for all big players. It is bad for the health of the industry but puts more money in Mikes bottom line next month.

[Stillriledup]

I take perverse pleasure in watching peoples' expressions as they leave the track or OTB...and I would be very worried if my customers sported the same expressions when they exited my place of business. For an "entertainment" business...the vast majority of the departing customers don't appear "entertained".

Keeping horse racing customers "happy" is a daunting task because in order for your business to be successful, you have to "convince" people who have lost their money to come back the next day and try again.

Not easy to pull that off.

[thaskalos]

Keeping horse racing customers "happy" is a daunting task because in order for your business to be successful, you have to "convince" people who have lost their money to come back the next day and try again.

Not easy to pull that off.

Bad things happen when your customers are unhappy, SRU...

Keep that in mind when you start your own racetrack.

[DeanT]

Matt Hegarty running through the filings and found some of the big guys cashed in more options before the takeout hike.

https://twitter.com/DRFHegarty

[andtheyreoff]

Since you seem to have the charts for those days readily available, the increase in take-out was supposed to also increase the number of horses running (increasing competition field sizes). How many horses ran for each of those days and how many ran in each of the SA Derby races (2005, 2010 and 2014)?

Thanks,

April 9, 2005
Horses entered: 106
Number of races: 11

April 3, 2010
Horses entered: 102
Number of races: 11

April 5, 2014
Horses entered: 116
Number of races: 11

[Stillriledup]

Bad things happen when your customers are unhappy, SRU...

Keep that in mind when you start your own racetrack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU8gvF6WCIk :D

[Grits]

Matt Hegarty running through the filings and found some of the big guys cashed in more options before the takeout hike.

https://twitter.com/DRFHegarty

Interesting.

[Stillriledup]

Matt Hegarty running through the filings and found some of the big guys cashed in more options before the takeout hike.

https://twitter.com/DRFHegarty

Odd that you would "cash in" on a company that expects to make 8 million "free dollars" from the suckers and saps in the near future.

[whodoyoulike]

April 9, 2005
Horses entered: 106
Number of races: 11

April 3, 2010
Horses entered: 102
Number of races: 11

April 5, 2014
Horses entered: 116
Number of races: 11

Thanks for the info. But, what I was thinking was since the take-out increases was supposed to increase competition and field sizes according to these experts, how did the California increase affect the SA Derby results?

Since you used the SA Derby, I've compiled some info.


Year............Purse.................#horses..... ......#Scr........Places Paid.....Time

2005..........750k..................11............ .......0.............5..............109.18
2006..........750k..................5 ....................1.............5..............1 08.00
2010..........750k..................10............ .......0.............5..............108.00
2011..........1000k................9 ....................2.............5..............1 08.66
2012..........750k..................9 ....................1.............5..............1 07.88
2013..........750.75k.............8 ....................1.............8..............1 08.76
2014..........1000.75k...........8 ....................0.............8..............1 07.52

I've included the final time because I like to know the times of races.

I would say that increasing take-out rates doesn't (hasn't) increase(d) competition (it's BS in this case).

Notice that they changed the places paid from 5 to 8. The last two years every entry received a payout.This doesn't increase competition. I feel that to increase competition, the places paid should be REDUCED to like 3 places. To increase competition there needs to be an incentive ($$) for owners.

[BettinBilly]

If I was a betting man, I'd bet Churchill Downs helped design the legislation which allowed a trigger point for increasing track take-outs.

I'll give you 10 to 1 Odds that you are correct, sir. Too bad you are not a betting man. Money, and politics, make the World go around.

[whodoyoulike]

Odd that you would "cash in" on a company that expects to make 8 million "free dollars" from the suckers and saps in the near future.

There are usually a number of reasons for cashing in options esp. around the end of quarter. Check prior years to see if this is unusual.

[Stillriledup]

There are usually a number of reasons for cashing in options esp. around the end of quarter. Check prior years to see if this is unusual.

I don't know much about the stock market, but all these guys cashing in at once might mean more than just one guy cashing in.

[whodoyoulike]

I'll give you 10 to 1 Odds that you are correct, sir. Too bad you are not a betting man. Money, and politics, make the World go around.

If they did have a hand in including this trigger clause, they don't really care about any backlash which might result. They would've had the foresight to see this possibility. I kinda admire this. But, I don't like being manipulated. Especially when I realize I'm being hustled.

What I've noticed is Churchill Downs has some very smart people working for them. They even have a billionaire puppet master, who I think is actually pulling the strings.
JMO

[whodoyoulike]

I don't know much about the stock market, but all these guys cashing in at once might mean more than just one guy cashing in.

I'm just saying that this activity is not unusual.

[senortout]

What if...instead of not betting on Derby and Oaks days, all of us bet AS HEAVY AS PLANNED on the Derby and Oaks, and skip the undercard altogether?

At least its a plan, its telling them we love our KYDerby but we can't stand what they are asking of us on a day-in day-out basis.

So, to reiterate, REALLY SEND IT IN on the Oaks and the Derby, but completely abstain(ugh) on the rest of those two, very special programs.

Get the word out, I know this would work in our favor, and not theirs.

Wax on, Wax off

senortout

[Stillriledup]

What if...instead of not betting on Derby and Oaks days, all of us bet AS HEAVY AS PLANNED on the Derby and Oaks, and skip the undercard altogether?

At least its a plan, its telling them we love our KYDerby but we can't stand what they are asking of us on a day-in day-out basis.

So, to reiterate, REALLY SEND IT IN on the Oaks and the Derby, but completely abstain(ugh) on the rest of those two, very special programs.

Get the word out, I know this would work in our favor, and not theirs.

Wax on, Wax off

senortout


Danielson,

I'd prefer to not bet 1 dollar on ANY of their races. But, that's just me. :ThmbUp:

[DeanT]

Really interesting look at this news as compared to rhe California experience by Lenny Moon at Equinometry. He scoured the numbers and came up with some neat stuff.

http://www.equinometry.com/2014/04/16/churchill-downs-takeout-increase-futile-effort-resurrect-once-great-track/

[whodoyoulike]

I don't know much about the stock market, but all these guys cashing in at once might mean more than just one guy cashing in.


Just in case you're still upset, they probably needed to cash their stock options to pay their million(s) dollar(s) tax liabilities.

I hope that helps calm you down a little.

[Stillriledup]

Really interesting look at this news as compared to the California experience by Lenny Moon at Equinometry. He scoured the numbers and came up with some neat stuff.

http://www.equinometry.com/2014/04/16/churchill-downs-takeout-increase-futile-effort-resurrect-once-great-track/

The math says its a bad idea. Nobody who has said its a GOOD idea has ever shown its a good idea by citing "math", its always some other reason.

Also, how clueless must these people be that they don't realize handle will drop if takeout is raised....they're citing an "8 million dollar bump" on previous handle at the lower rates.

CD's stance is that they want higher purses so they can attract better horses as well as attracting more horses, but this "Strategy" hasn't worked because if it was a viable strategy, all these slots tracks like Penn National, Parx, etc would be flourishing with the "large fields" and large betting handles, but that isnt the case.

Tracks in the eastern seaboard have given BILLIONS in slots money over these past handful of years to owners, trainers and jockeys but that hasnt proven to attract enough good horses, create massive field sizes or make betting handles skyrocket.

So, here's what CD, inc is suggesting. Their theory is that with a takeout raise, the handles will stay the same, 2 dollar bettors "wont notice" and the other 'shortfall" might be made up because better horses and more horses will entice bettors to bet as much or MORE on the "new" product. I don't know about you, but i'd rather bet a 6 horse field at Churchill at the current rates than a 12 horse field at the new rates and i know i'm not alone.

What a mess.

[Stillriledup]

Just in case you're still upset, they probably needed to cash their stock options to pay their million(s) dollar(s) tax liabilities.

I hope that helps calm you down a little.

I'm not upset at all, Churchill just made my wagering decisions easier, i don't have to follow their races or their track, saves me time, i couldn't be happier!

[whodoyoulike]

Really interesting look at this news as compared to rhe California experience by Lenny Moon at Equinometry. He scoured the numbers and came up with some neat stuff.

http://www.equinometry.com/2014/04/16/churchill-downs-takeout-increase-futile-effort-resurrect-once-great-track/

Do you or anyone else know why tracks and purses share 50/50 in increases?

I may be misunderstanding these incr/decr but, doesn't 50% of the incr/decr go to the tracks and 50% goes to purses (horsemen)? Or am I incorrect?

Thanks,

[DeanT]

Do you or anyone else know why tracks and purses share 50/50 in increases?

I may be misunderstanding these incr/decr but, doesn't 50% of the incr/decr go to the tracks and 50% goes to purses (horsemen)? Or am I incorrect?

Thanks,

Most are written like that, yes. It's just the way the contracts are signed, I believe.

in CA the TOC asked for more from the pick 5 and the takeout increase and the tracks said yes.

[whodoyoulike]

Thanks. Is it just me or doesn't that seem odd for two independent entities to have this relationship when you're trying (or claiming) to encourage competition?

[DeanT]

Thanks. Is it just me or doesn't that seem odd for two independent entities to have this relationship when you're trying (or claiming) to encourage competition?

Horse racing does not seem to be about competing, but bonding together to get as much as everyone can now.

[SandyW]

I'm not upset at all, Churchill just made my wagering decisions easier, i don't have to follow their races or their track, saves me time, i couldn't be happier!

Made my wagering decision much easier also, I will not bet anything at CD not even on Derby day, Good luck to these greedy bastards.

[whodoyoulike]

Horse racing does not seem to be about competing, but bonding together to get as much as everyone can now.

It sure seems that way. It's been several years since I looked over the annual reports issued by the CHRB. This government agency "appeared" to be entrusted to weigh the interests of the public, tracks and horsemen in their decisions. If the tracks and horsemen are really the same entity (interests with different names) then I'm wondering if these regulatory agencies really have the public interests in mind when they make a decision. Despite the fact several regulatory commissioners have (had) horse racing interests, I always figured they were honorable and ethical.

BTW, I'm PO'd. A 20% take-out on win bets may be the breaking point for me.

[Stillriledup]

I think CD should raise the takeout on the Derby itself to 50%.

There's a thread in another part of this board talking about the Derby and nobody has come into that thread and said "im skipping the Derby". Seems like that race, is "takeout proof". Why not charge 50%, its not like its going to matter, its not like people are going to be able to NOT bet the race.

Right?

If you say "SRU, that's silly, of course people would skip the race" but i don't know, i don't see that people are serious enough about not betting Churchill...if the current takeout raise still has people talking about the "derby" why not just make the take a round 50%, the pool won't be much smaller in my opinion, people seem to not care.

[fmolf]

I think CD should raise the takeout on the Derby itself to 50%.

There's a thread in another part of this board talking about the Derby and nobody has come into that thread and said "im skipping the Derby". Seems like that race, is "takeout proof". Why not charge 50%, its not like its going to matter, its not like people are going to be able to NOT bet the race.

Right?

If you say "SRU, that's silly, of course people would skip the race" but i don't know, i don't see that people are serious enough about not betting Churchill...if the current takeout raise still has people talking about the "derby" why not just make the take a round 50%, the pool won't be much smaller in my opinion, people seem to not care.now i can add churchill right next to gulfstream on my list of do not play under any circumstances!Derby included.I will watch the race to help me pick my Preakness horse but CD gets none of my money!

[Stillriledup]

So, if this boycott even sort of works, won't Churchill make less money than they did before the takeout raise? Now, if that's true, and they MIGHT actually lose money off their most recent perforance, won't that hurt the horsemen as they'll have to lower purses? I'm not sure how it works with handle and purses, but if there's even a small concern that this "experiment" might not work, shouldn't the horsemen be concerned?

Are there ANY horsemen who normally train at CD are concerned that the track did the wrong thing and the higher takeout will cost them purse money somewhere down the line?

[duncan04]

https://twitter.com/cj_jennie/status/458905798324654081

Guess they need the takeout increase. :rolleyes:

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Are there ANY horsemen who ... are concerned that ... (any short term "solution")... will cost them ... down the line?

There are, but when you spot more than one or two of them in the same place at the same time, go get yourself a Powerball ticket.

[lamboguy]

the reality of the situation is that a place like Santa Anita makes about $5 million a year doing business as a racetrack. if the track closes and went into something else like hotels, apartments, office buildings, the place would make more than $50 million a year.

[DeanT]

Old Andy has been really working the phones and emails and he is helping spearhead a boycott action.

I think the website will be updated tomorrow.

Twitter is active @playersboycott and @racetrackandy

It's interesting that, to me, this is more energized than the Santa Anita one. Horsemen, fans, and bettors all seem to be fairly at odds with CDI. imo. Fair Grounds and the LA legistlature are upset with them as well.

Meanwhile, they open the NASDAQ tomorrow. Wish I was there. I hear there will be some excellent snacks.

[DeanT]

As above, it's articles like this one just out, that are fascinating. The dislike for the corporation is palpable out there.

Pricci's site:
Churchill Downs is a treasure. However, its parent company, Churchill Downs Inc., has done more to undermine the sport than any PETA video could ever do.


http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Ante-Post/comments/churchill-downs-and-cdi-are-two-different-worlds/#comments

[Stillriledup]

With CD's "biggest weekend" coming up, just a friendly reminder that they did jack up takeout rates. You're paying more to wager on CD. A lot more.

[Rise Over Run]

https://twitter.com/cj_jennie/status/458905798324654081

Guess they need the takeout increase. :rolleyes:

Churchill taking a lot of undeserved flak over this one. Based on the visual in the photo and the time stamp from Jennie Rees' post this was from 2:50 AM. I'm assuming that CD must abide by local codes on when they can "turn the lights on". There are some residential properties in to the north of the track.

Horses train all the time before the sun rises at racetracks with, or without lighting.

[Stillriledup]

Churchill taking a lot of undeserved flak over this one. Based on the visual in the photo and the time stamp from Jennie Rees' post this was from 2:50 AM. I'm assuming that CD must abide by local codes on when they can "turn the lights on". There are some residential properties in to the north of the track.

Horses train all the time before the sun rises at racetracks with, or without lighting.

They deserve all the flak they get.

[Hank]

CDI is a sleazy outfit.At Fairground they had to beg to get there license renewed.They care ONLY about the casino and have not invested a dime on the racing side.The racing side of FGs is quickly deteriorating, The State leg is pushing legislation FORCING them to invest 10% of profits at FG back into racing.

http://blogs.theadvocate.com/politicsblog/2014/04/09/churchill-downs-battles-legislators/

[Stillriledup]

CDI is a sleazy outfit.At Fairground they had to beg to get there license renewed.They care ONLY about the casino and have not invested a dime on the racing side.The racing side of FGs is quickly deteriorating, The State leg is pushing legislation FORCING them to invest 10% of profits at FG back into racing.

http://blogs.theadvocate.com/politicsblog/2014/04/09/churchill-downs-battles-legislators/

Slumlords of racing?

[Tom]

btw....is SRU Downs taking bets at Churchville Downs this weekend?

[lamboguy]

still no deal with Churchill Downs and the Casino racebooks throughout the country.

if CALIFORNIA CHROME wins the derby, the books out there will get croaked.

[Robert Goren]

CDI is a sleazy outfit.At Fairground they had to beg to get there license renewed.They care ONLY about the casino and have not invested a dime on the racing side.The racing side of FGs is quickly deteriorating, The State leg is pushing legislation FORCING them to invest 10% of profits at FG back into racing.

http://blogs.theadvocate.com/politicsblog/2014/04/09/churchill-downs-battles-legislators/Maybe if the racing actually showed some signs of someday showing a profit, it would invest more in it. Remember the reason tracks have slots is that the tracks were losing money and were going to close. Anybody that thought a casino was going keep sinking money into racing for ever has recently visited Denver. Racing (the horsemen)may or may not win this battle in the LA legislature, but it won't keep winning them forever. It is up to racing to clean up its own house. That means the horsemen because casino run race tracks aren't going to it. That means using some of there slot fueled purse money to promote the game. It is their livelihood that is one the line. I am not holding my breathe.

[GMB@BP]

Maybe if the racing actually showed some signs of someday showing a profit, it would invest more in it. Remember the reason tracks have slots is that the tracks were losing money and were going to close. Anybody that thought a casino was going keep sinking money into racing for ever has recently visited Denver. Racing (the horsemen)may or may not win this battle in the LA legislature, but it won't keep winning them forever. It is up to racing to clean up its own house. That means the horsemen because casino run race tracks aren't going to it. That means using some of there slot fueled purse money to promote the game. It is their livelihood that is one the line. I am not holding my breathe.

Yea whats interesting now though you have people who are in the sport basically saying there is no way that it can be fixed and want this permanent welfare to be able to pay the bills.

Thing is there are no votes to be bought to keep the casino money in place for racing, that welfare is going to go away.

[horses4courses]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmrIEfCIQAA-SZz.jpg

[OTM Al]

Down from last year but second highest all time....

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Given that they raised the takeout rates by over 9% for win and over 15% for exotics a drop in turnover of 5.7% would still have CD in front on the deal, provided that the level of discount betting by rebate players this year is the same as last year

If the level of betting by rebate players has changed from last year then obviously the equation changes but we don't know this info

[TraderX]

It's kind of strange that New York is known as one of the most mismanaged high income tax rate states in the nation, along with California. However, their takeout rates on win mutuels are among the lowest.

Unfortunately, the bettors are more sophisticated in New York, so the mutuels are lower anyway.

[Stillriledup]

It's kind of strange that New York is known as one of the most mismanaged high income tax rate states in the nation, along with California. However, their takeout rates on win mutuels are among the lowest.

Unfortunately, the bettors are more sophisticated in New York, so the mutuels are lower anyway.

Why are the bettors more sophisticated in NY? Is there some data that proves this is true? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but why do you think this is true?

[thaskalos]

Why are the bettors more sophisticated in NY? Is there some data that proves this is true? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but why do you think this is true?

This "NYers are more sophisticated" adage was strictly a pre-simulcasting phenomenon. In the full-card simulcasting era, everyone bets everywhere...so this saying no longer applies, IMO.

[TraderX]

Professionals are practically forced to bet large circuits by default. Professionals ARE more sophisticated. It is not rocket science, never heard anyone disagree with this before now. This does effect mutuel prices.

[therussmeister]

Given that they raised the takeout rates by over 9% for win and over 15% for exotics a drop in turnover of 5.7% would still have CD in front on the deal, provided that the level of discount betting by rebate players this year is the same as last year

If the level of betting by rebate players has changed from last year then obviously the equation changes but we don't know this info
But Churchill only gets that 9% and 15% of the bets placed through them. What they get from the rest of the country is whatever they were able increase their signal fees to. How many rebate players bet through Churchill?

[Seabiscuit@AR]

therussmeister

turnover figures or handle figures are a poor guide because we don't know how many bets have been sold at full takeout and how big the rebates are on any rebate bets

Anyways for what the figures are worth (ie not much), Kentucky Derby handle down 0.80% but the whole day handle was up 1.4% on last year

http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-derby-handle-down-08-percent

[cosmicway]

Just heard this on Greek tv, during the derby replay they showed.
Shame - can find immitators - should be resisted.

What I have done under similar circumstances in the past is to cut my wagering by a half, knowing that I can't stop it althogether and stuck to it.

The public are -unfortunately- clowns and this is why the companies do it (both those who raise takeouts and those who start business with exorbitant takeouts).

Some years ago we had a strike, for the same reason (increase in takeout percentages). But the stike was organized by the betting shops themselves, who thought it was too much indeed and it could drive customers away.
All the shops remained closed on race day but the two company franchise shops stayed open so I went there to see what happens.
The place was full and the idiots spilled into the street !
I approached with caution, thinking those people might be company people and if I said something wrong they might become angry. But it turned out those were local characters I more or less knew from previous encounters.
So I started chatting and as it turned out they did not even know what was going on ! Those trade unionists striked for some reason they were saying, so we had to come here !

In the end the betting company settled for half the increase they had announced, but that did not bring them any happiness.
You know the score in GR ?
The score is that in 2007 we had 2.5 million to 3.0 million pool size on a day after day basis. Now it is 240 thousand twice a week - as one race day had to be scrapped off. The takeout of 2007 is the total now !
True that the economic crisis and the euro crisis accounts for much of it but the other types of betting companies (soccer - lottery) do not have the same sort of problem. They are down by 20%, not 90% !

The following things have been proven:

- the "theory of idiots" is true just like the race course economic supremos believe
- the punters are drained, new ones do not arrive and the system collapses

You can fool the people, you cannot fool the euros (dollars, rupees) in their pockets.

[JohnGalt1]

Now that the Derby is over, I'm done with CD until they rescind higher take out rates on my wins.

Had some good days betting that track.

[cosmicway]

Now that the Derby is over, I'm done with CD until they rescind higher take out rates on my wins.

Had some good days betting that track.

What's their justification for it ?
Some authorities are horrible.
They write in annual reports:

we succeded in lowering payouts

and on another occasion:

we succeded in making shops pay for their terminal machine

[SandyW]

Churchill handle down 43% Thur. of this year vs Thur. of last year.

[wonatthewire1]

Churchill handle down 43% Thur. of this year vs Thur. of last year.


Churchill and Arlington were not available yesterday here in NJ via TVG; perhaps there are some other issues out there as well. I sent an email to TVG but did not get a response but it was around 4:45pm

[riskman]

Horse racing does not seem to be about competing, but bonding together to get as much as everyone can now.

You are a knowledgeable person of this industry and whose opinion I respect.
The statement above is certainly moving in this direction.

[Stillriledup]

Churchill and Arlington were not available yesterday here in NJ via TVG; perhaps there are some other issues out there as well. I sent an email to TVG but did not get a response but it was around 4:45pm

Maybe CD not making their signal available so they'll have a built in excuse as to why handle dropped? They're not going to ever admit it was because bettors were smart and stayed away, so they need some other reason, this might be the reason.

[wonatthewire1]

Maybe CD not making their signal available so they'll have a built in excuse as to why handle dropped? They're not going to ever admit it was because bettors were smart and stayed away, so they need some other reason, this might be the reason.

Not available today either - none of the CD owned tracks (CD, Arlington or Calder) are on the menu. NJ Bets is run by TVG & is the only ADW we can use in the state

We were able to bet on all 3 tracks up until last Sunday. No response to my inquiry from yesterday.

[affirmedny]

Not available today either - none of the CD owned tracks (CD, Arlington or Calder) are on the menu. NJ Bets is run by TVG & is the only ADW we can use in the state

We were able to bet on all 3 tracks up until last Sunday. No response to my inquiry from yesterday.

Send your email to comments@TVG.com they don't answer any other address

[wonatthewire1]

Send your email to comments@TVG.com they don't answer any other address

Hey Affirmedny, that is the one I used from the site. They probably aren't contracted right now, normally we'll get it back but just don't know when.

[DeanT]

You are a knowledgeable person of this industry and whose opinion I respect.
The statement above is certainly moving in this direction.

I think we're seeing more and more of it, of late, for sure. I went through the Asian gaming and racing summit presentations this past week and it is a different world out there. I think I heard the words 'bettor', 'wagering' and 'growing the pie through the customer' a thousand times. We need more of that here, imo.

Thanks for the nice words.

[cosmicway]

When there are many tracks with specialist info available then what's the use of them raising takeout precentage ?
There is a world wide conspiracy afoot however to rob punters.

[ronsmac]

Churchill had a brutal week. Handle down about 25% today, I know there was an issue with N.J. earlier this week, but I believed it's been resolved.

[cosmicway]

Strange type of sitiuation.
Churchill Downs are not the one and only race track in America -apart of Kentucky day of course that attracts attention from all over the world.

So it's a control experiment.

[whodoyoulike]

Churchill had a brutal week. Handle down about 25% today, I know there was an issue with N.J. earlier this week, but I believed it's been resolved.

Ending May 3, article:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/derby-week-concludes-with-memorable-kentucky-derby-140-as-california-chrome-wins-americas-greatest-race-2014-05-03

excerpt:


DERBY WEEK WRAP-UP

All-sources handle for Opening Night, Saturday, April 26, through Derby Day, Saturday, May 3, 2014, was $253.8 million, down 2 percent from 2013's $258.5 million. Attendance for those five days was up 5 percent to 348,530 from 331,922 in 2013.


Churchill Downs returned $147.8 million to bettors, which amounts to 79 percent of total wagering on the Derby Day race card. Additionally, purses earned from the Derby Day race card approximated $9.5 million that will be paid out to horsemen during the remainder of the 2014 racing meets.

Any way you look at it, lot of money spent for what 1 week? ...

[cosmicway]

It's a control experiment.
Prohibitionists and money grabbers bandied together.

Some people are saying "the conservatives will save the day because they stand for the free economy and are against excessive taxation".
Some other people are saying "the socialists are those who will save the day because they stand for the people and do not tolerate injustices".

But we are getting the worst of both worlds.
Madame Mao and Frau Himmler in the same boat.

[1st time lasix]

Only made one single wager at Chrurchill from Friday to Sunday-- because of their take-out increase. In past years.... I would have made forty or so on three cards.... My personal $ handle has moved to the lower take-out pools at Momouth, Belmont or Gulfstream.

[SandyW]

It's a control experiment.
Prohibitionists and money grabbers bandied together.

Some people are saying "the conservatives will save the day because they stand for the free economy and are against excessive taxation".
Some other people are saying "the socialists are those who will save the day because they stand for the people and do not tolerate injustices".

But we are getting the worst of both worlds.
Madame Mao and Frau Himmler in the same boat.

Politics or horse racing, that is the question ??????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[DeanT]

playersboycott tweeted out the numbers for the post-derby CD handle week.

https://twitter.com/playersboycott/status/465873153424887808

"CD handle - Thursday down 46%, Friday down 29%, Saturday down 39% and Sunday down 25% when compared to 2013."

[lamboguy]

playersboycott tweeted out the numbers for the post-derby CD handle week.

https://twitter.com/playersboycott/status/465873153424887808

"CD handle - Thursday down 46%, Friday down 29%, Saturday down 39% and Sunday down 25% when compared to 2013."Churchill got nothing to worry about, they will make it up on the parking

[cosmicway]

Politics or horse racing, that is the question ??????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

If there is money in it then quite obviously.
If we talk about pure sport then political involvement is a weird thing, but again it happens.

[cosmicway]

Politics or horse racing, that is the question ??????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Taxation without representation ?

http://ec.europa.eu/sport/news/2014/study-on-sport-organisers-rights_en.htm

[taxicab]

Churchill got nothing to worry about, they will make it up on the parking

:lol: :lol:

[horses4courses]

Fresh off of twitter:

Andy Asaro ‏@racetrackandy 12m
Churchill Downs DOWN 28% today ($1.4M). Boycott Churchill Downs. We never quit.

[wiffleball whizz]

I'm done betting CD......I'll pass even if I'm buried on stone tilt...they won't see my handle anymore....

CDI is as bad as Caesars entertainment

[OTM Al]

How many do you think realize that almost all the rates at Pimlico are even higher than the increased rates at Churchill. Think I read handle was way up Saturday...,,,

[cj]

How many do you think realize that almost all the rates at Pimlico are even higher than the increased rates at Churchill. Think I read handle was way up Saturday...,,,

I think you are wrong on the Pimlico handle, it was hurting through the first six races at least and there were only a few less horses that had run this year compared to last.

[cj]

I was wrong, up a little.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/85159/attendance-total-handle-up-for-preakness-day

[cj]

How many do you think realize that almost all the rates at Pimlico are even higher than the increased rates at Churchill. Think I read handle was way up Saturday...,,,

It was pretty well publicized on Twitter. The big days will always get bet. The rest, not so much.

[cosmicway]

Trouble is there are no consumer protection authorities.
The politicos produce some writeups worthy of a ten year old's facebook page saying how good it is to "limit payout obligations" and then they go into hiding. But what they say goes.

It's a shame.

In the old comedies we see cops going after the three card tricksters in the shadowy streets. Now the three card tricksters have state power.

[horses4courses]

Trouble is there are no consumer protection authorities.
The politicos produce some writeups worthy of a ten year old's facebook page saying how good it is to "limit payout obligations" and then they go into hiding. But what they say goes.

It's a shame.

In the old comedies we see cops going after the three card tricksters in the shadowy streets. Now the three card tricksters have state power.

Say what? :eek:

[OTM Al]

It was pretty well publicized on Twitter. The big days will always get bet. The rest, not so much.

But since the big days are what make or break those two tracks for the year, they can get away with it.

[cj]

But since the big days are what make or break those two tracks for the year, they can get away with it.

You think Churchill's one big day can make up for the carnage the rest of the meet has been? We'll see, but I doubt it.

The main point is they don't care though. They want to look bad. People keep forgetting that. They want gaming.

[JustRalph]

You think Churchill's one big day can make up for the carnage the rest of the meet has been? We'll see, but I doubt it.

The main point is they don't care though. They want to look bad. People keep forgetting that. They want gaming.

I keep thinking this too. But they sure are taking a multi million dollar gamble. Not sure Kentucky will let it happen. But then again, six months of gaming probably gets them even.

In Ohio, the gaming sector is showing huge differences in what was predicted and what is reality(as expected by anyone with a brain) but the machines keep chugging along. Which is the ultimate goal and CDI's nirvana

[Striker]

You think Churchill's one big day can make up for the carnage the rest of the meet has been? We'll see, but I doubt it.

The main point is they don't care though. They want to look bad. People keep forgetting that. They want gaming.
Absolutely I do. The main source of revenue during Derby/Oaks week is their ticket sales, especially their "premium" ticket sales. This is all that matters to them. Wagering is obviously second but it isn't even close to the revenue that the ticket sales bring in. Until this is attacked they won't care.

[hracingplyr]

Just read so far the meet is down 23% in handle. YESSSSSSSSSSSSS. Guess the boycott is working a bit.

[DeanT]

Here is an update as of this morning from a couple of the guys working at PB.org, including some numbers in comparison for Arlington (another CDI property) and Belmont.

It's pretty detailed. Since last update, handle has fallen another $7M at CD, for a total of $19M down. Arlington also down.

http://www.playersboycott.org/handleupdate05182014.html

[OTM Al]

You think Churchill's one big day can make up for the carnage the rest of the meet has been? We'll see, but I doubt it.

The main point is they don't care though. They want to look bad. People keep forgetting that. They want gaming.

They certainly do forget that. All the boycott is doing is allowing CDI to have justification to cut more days which will allow them to make more money as they will be able to cut wages and other costs needed to keep the place open.

I see some are claiming the boycott is working already. It is, just in the way CDI wants it to. This was an added bonus to them. Can see Churchill having a very short spring meet in the future and the length of the fall meet will depend if they want to do the BC or not.

[Jeff P]

So be it Al.

Let's say for the sake of argument Churchill was counting on pushback from players when they decided on a takeout increase, that their goal all along was to paint the bleakest picture possible.

But what if Churchill still can't get slots from the Legislature and decides to cut dates? I mean really cut dates.

What if Churchill decided that for 2015 they were only going to run a one week meet culminating on Derby Day?

Consider all the possibilities that go with that scenario (Churchill essentially getting out of the everyday racing business.)

Is the game of horse racing better off - are players better off with Churchill essentially out of the eveyday racing business?


-jp

.

[OTM Al]

So be it Al.

Let's say for the sake of argument Churchill was counting on pushback from players when they decided on a takeout increase, that their goal all along was to paint the bleakest picture possible.

But what if Churchill still can't get slots from the Legislature and decides to cut dates? I mean really cut dates.

What if Churchill decided that for 2015 they were only going to run a one week meet culminating on Derby Day?

Consider all the possibilities that go with that scenario (Churchill essentially getting out of the everyday racing business.)

Is the game of horse racing better off - are players better off with Churchill essentially out of the eveyday racing business?


-jp

.

Seemingly every day I hear we need to reduce dates. If that is true, then this certainly would be for the betterment of the players. It's basically what I expect to happen there anyway. You want them to act like businessmen. Well, they are.

[DeanT]

If that's what CDI wants, it's probably not smart. As Louisiana showed, politicos have pushback of their own.

Fairgrounds off 20% last two years: Commission and legislature steps in, threatening the pulling of a license.

Arlington off 27%? Churchill Downs off 23%? Calder brutal? I would not think for a minute that, like in LA, horsemen groups and legislatures would stand idly by while their racetracks are mothballed.

Coming from Ontario I saw what happens when racing is ignored and handle losses continue. The government steps in and takes away slots. If slots are taken away from CD tracks the same way, their stock would probably be cut in half.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Coming from Ontario I saw what happens when racing is ignored and handle losses continue. The government steps in and takes away slots. If slots are taken away from CD tracks the same way, their stock would probably be cut in half.

Works differently here - the purse subsidy goes away, not the slots/casino licensure. It's easier to make money in the casino biz than the horse racing biz. CHDN's mgt realizes this, not exactly a state secret.

[Exotic1]

They certainly do forget that. All the boycott is doing is allowing CDI to have justification to cut more days which will allow them to make more money as they will be able to cut wages and other costs needed to keep the place open.

I see some are claiming the boycott is working already. It is, just in the way CDI wants it to. This was an added bonus to them. Can see Churchill having a very short spring meet in the future and the length of the fall meet will depend if they want to do the BC or not.

Al,

I'm not following. If CD's game plan is to cut days, then let them cut days. Let them cut the meet, the year. If they want to raise takeout rates to 50% which will reduce revenue and justify some end game, who cares? As a bettor, we can take our business elsewhere. If they want to show lower revenue we can oblige and help. If they want out of racing, let them leave. Of course, this wouldn't be my most preferred resolution, but if that's their ultimatum, then so be it. If that's the outcome CDI is hoping for, fine. What is it that people are forgetting?

[DeanT]

Works differently here - the purse subsidy goes away, not the slots/casino licensure. It's easier to make money in the casino biz than the horse racing biz. CHDN's mgt realizes this, not exactly a state secret.

I understand what you are saying Mike, but not really my point. The mix that goes to the operator and the track for profit are fixed in the contract, but that contract can be changed. In 2008 in Ontario, the 10% and 10% mix was recommended to be changed where 5% of the tracks' share would go to breeding and purses. This was in response to the tracks not doing enough with their profits.

Deals can be changed, and have been. The portion for breeding was cut in PA, for example.

My point is simple: Horsemen groups and legislatures, in future deals or rejigging past ones, will not be overly responsive to a track with bad headlines who shows they might not have racing's best interests at heart. Jurisdictions talk to each other and horsemen are powerful. If a state like ILL has casino gaming, they talk to LA and LA says "we've had trouble with them, so giving them less of a revenue share is not out of bounds" is not a pipe dream.

If that happens, CDI EBITDA - forecast with say 10% of revenues - has to be changed to 5 or 6% and they get killed.

This game is political, and right now CDI is politically getting skewered. If it exacerbates and continues, it could hurt their long term slots plan big time.

All my opinion.

[GMB@BP]

The sooner racing gets out of the casino game the better.