Undocumented cattle

[DJofSD]

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=29387272&fm=most_popular

Tom, JR: see any irony here?

[DJofSD]

http://www.infowars.com/nevada-governor-blasts-feds-first-amendment-area-in-bundy-dispute/

We know what the supporters think and now we have heard from the governor.

Is the senior senator from NV going to weight in, too?

[mostpost]

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=29387272&fm=most_popular

Tom, JR: see any irony here?
Tell the cheapskate to pay the grazing fees like everyone else. Law abiding citizens are put at a disadvantage when someone like Bundy refuses to obey the law.

[DJofSD]

Tell the cheapskate to pay the grazing fees like everyone else. Law abiding citizens are put at a disadvantage when someone like Bundy refuses to obey the law.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

You crack me up -- that is the only reaction I can have and keep my sanity.

[Tom]

They are just grazing grass that Government cattle will eat.
They have a right to be on that land - this government has no borders.
The cattle once owned all that land, they are justified in being there.
Some have calves that were born there - anchor calves.
We need to show some compassion, mostie, borders are bad.

[Clocker]

Based on that story, it appears that both sides are in the wrong. The rancher appears to be grazing his cattle on public land illegally. There are ranchers that have grazing permits on public land, and the land will support only a very limited number of cattle. If the story is correct, that rancher is infringing on the rights of other ranchers. The rancher's claim that he doesn't recognize federal authority is something that needs to be settled in court, not in a show down with armed federal agents.

On the other hand, it appears that the BLM is acting like storm troopers (or worse, ATF agents), a problem that they are known for. The BLM has a history of over-reacting and interfering with ranchers who have legitimate grazing rights on public lands simply because the BLM apparently doesn't like ranchers.

[Dave Schwartz]

Clocker has nailed it.

From my limited understanding, the BIG ranchers get to lease this land for pennies on the pound (literally).

Think of it this way... There are 2 ranchers who want to grow some beef.

Rancher #1 lives in Texas, has a ranch, puts cattle on it. Included in his cost of production is supporting the land in every way, including not only maintenance but also taxes.

Rancher #2 lives in Nevada, has a ranch, but his cattle are far away from his actual land. He pays no tax on the grazing land, does not maintenance, and pays just pennies in comparison to rancher #1.

Who do you suppose makes more money per pound?

Okay, so maybe this is an oversimplification, but seriously, the charge per acre-cow is very small in comparison.

[rastajenk]

So if the Bundys pay the fees, they can endanger desert tortoises? Doesn't seem likely.

[LottaKash]

Velcome to da new Amerika....
================================

Tensions are high in Nevada right now as the U.S. government has staged an armed siege against a local rancher whose ancestors have been running cattle on the land since the 1870's.


The federal BLM was created in 1946, and in the 1990's, it claimed power over the same land being used by the Bundy family to run cattle.


Now the feds have surrounded the ranch with 200 armed men, helicopters and snipers, and the feds are demanding $1 million from the Bundy family while stealing their cattle and auctioning them all off.


The Nevada state Governor is outraged, and a U.S. Senator for the state of Nevada has already blasted the BLM for its out-of-control tyranny against a rancher.


Here's how the story is unfolding so far:
http://www.naturalnews.com/044654_Bundy_cattle_ranch_government_siege_militar ized_police.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/044654_Bundy_cattle_ranch_government_siege_militar ized_police.html)

[Johnny V]

Tell the cheapskate to pay the grazing fees like everyone else. Law abiding citizens are put at a disadvantage when someone like Bundy refuses to obey the law.
It seems that the ranchers family has been running cattle on that scrubland since 1870. Now the Feds in the 1990's said the land belongs to them. Whats with all this armed force, abusing a family member for taking pictures, yeah, we should just blindly obey and let the gestapo trample over us. That is precisely the kind of thinking that has put this country in the sorry state it is in today.

[classhandicapper]

What's the upside to any aggressive action that potentially winds up hurting a single cow, calf etc...?

It seems to me this is an issue to be resolved in the courts, but the cattle should be left out of it.

[DJofSD]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610

[davew]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610

Looks like they are just pulling back before it turns into a bloodbath, and not cattle blood.

[elysiantraveller]

Complete stupidity everywhere...

I'm sure the Tea Party will shortlist this jackass for some political office the GOP would normally win.

[elysiantraveller]

Not the Feds....WE, the people own it.
We do not need a Nazi-style response to this - 200 armed agents?
Ziech Heil!

Go to Hell US Government.

To avoid derailing the other thread.

The response was over the top I know but the fact is the Fed's own and maintain that land. That's why fee's are charged for use.

The guy is a ****ing right wing nut-job... pay to use the land just like everyone else or get the hell off of it. Not paying, because of some BS excuse, to help support Federal and/or State land while your cows get fat off of it is about as un-American as you can get IMO.

**** that guy.

[Tom]

The guy is a ****ing right wing nut-job... pay to use the land just like everyone else or get the hell off of it. Not paying, because of some BS excuse, to help support Federal and/or State land while your cows get fat off of it is about as un-American as you can get IMO.

Funny this guy is a citizen, yet the same government allows millions of illegals to do the exact same thing.

If cows could vote, there be no problem here.

This is about as AMERICAN as you can get - stand up to evil abusinve governments. IT is very TP of him.

[elysiantraveller]

Funny this guy is a citizen, yet the same government allows millions of illegals to do the exact same thing.

If cows could vote, there be no problem here.

This is about as AMERICAN as you can get - stand up to evil abusinve governments. IT is very TP of him.

Your comparison is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Apparently you have never camped on Federal or State land because you will be charged a fee. Those fee's go to preservation and maintainence of the land. I would know I spend a lot of my free time on those lands and am involved in several different organizations including Michigan Conservation Reserve Program, Pheasants Forever, the Michigan Ruffed Grouse Society, and several others. Unlike you I understand what happens to land that isn't maintained by the people that use it. I live a very short distance from two state game areas that are dumps... I'm not saying that as a joke... they are literally dumps where people toss their trash. Consequently, they are actually closing one to the public this year.

This guy is nothing but a taker. If he actually cared about the land his family has supposedly been using since the 1870's he should be happy to pay to ensure its maintained and protected... But no... Only when his cattle are confiscated off of taxpayer land he is trying to fatten his pockets with does he pitch a fit.

As far as I am concerned this guy is exploiting land I put my time, money, and sweat into... then to top it all off has the gall to call anyone who doesn't take his side un-American...

Like I said we can agree to disagree on this one but my previous comment stands... **** this guy.

[fast4522]

That is OK, every day prices inch up and soon many of these liberals will be eating dog food out of the can instead of steak. With hyperinflation in full swing is the best time to sell these folks down the river, they have piss running down their leg now with the mid term election in November. Without the cattle the land becomes baron, that is a proven fact. Beef prices have never been lower yee enlightened ones, wait till next year when the liberal specials flood your local supermarkets. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[elysiantraveller]

That is OK, every day prices inch up and soon many of these liberals will be eating dog food out of the can instead of steak. With hyperinflation in full swing is the best time to sell these folks down the river, they have piss running down their leg now with the mid term election in November. Without the cattle the land becomes baron, that is a proven fact. Beef prices have never been lower yee enlightened ones, wait till next year when the liberal specials flood your local supermarkets. :lol: :lol: :lol:

This has nothing... literally nothing... to do with liberals and republicans as much as you want it to.

It has to do with a guy back in 1993 refusing to pay $1.35 per cow/calf pair per month to use government maintained land to feed his cash crop. After over 20 years and countless court rulings the government finally decided to confiscate the property of someone knowingly breaking the law.

[fast4522]

Mmmm. . . .

Makes 6-8 Servings, with some meat left over
ingredients
1/4 cup flour
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon pepper
5 pound rump of beef
2 or 3 tablespoons fat or oil
2 onions, sliced, or 10-12 small white onions, peeled
1 or 2 carrots, scraped and cubed
Herbs and other seasonings as desired
1 cup liquid (wine, bouillon, tomatoes, vegetable broth, etc.)
Other vegetables as desired
preparation

Season the flour with the salt and pepper and pound the mixture into the meat with the edge of a plate. Brown meat on all sides in the hot fat or oil. Add the onions, cover and cook over low heat 10 minutes. Add the carrots, herbs, seasonings and liquid. Cover tightly and simmer 3 1/2 - 5 hours, until meat is fork tender. Add desired vegetables during the last 20 or 30 minutes.

Pot Roast Variations

1. For part of the liquid, use a 10-ounce can (1 1/3 cups) of puréed tomatoes. For seasoning, add 1 tablespoon minced parsley or dill. When the meat has been removed from the pan, add 1 cup sour cream to the sauce.

2. For the liquid, use 3/4 cup dry white wine, 2 tablespoons brandy or rum, and 1 tablespoon chili sauce. For seasoning, add 4-6 coriander seeds and 12 peppercorns.

3. For the liquid, use 1/2 cup syrup from canned fruit, 2 tablespoons vinegar, 1/2 cup water, 1 beef bouillon cube. For seasoning, add a pinch of powdered fennel and a teaspoon of minced dill.

4. For the liquid, use half dry vermouth, half chicken bouillon.

[Tom]

That picture......DAMN YOU!
Now I gotta get dressed and head out to Denny's at 12:35 am!!!! :p

[elysiantraveller]

That picture......DAMN YOU!
Now I gotta get dressed and head out to Denny's at 12:35 am!!!! :p

I have made it very similar to that recipe but when its cold out its all about the gravy and my families recipe would crush this one. Couple of major missing ingredients are cream of mushroom soup, french onion soup mix, A1, and Worcester sauce.

[DJofSD]

Harry Reid was trying to appropriate the land for a $5BB solar project?

[chrisl]

Funny: Cattle can not graze feds land, but illegals sure can. Where is that militia attitude on ours borders? Tards

[davew]

I suspect we are not getting the entire story, but what they want us to hear. Is this land actually state owned and BLM managed or federal owned? Is there really an endangered turtle on this land somewhere? Is there really a proposed solar project getting slowed because of cattle in area?

[DJofSD]

I believe when Nevada was formed as a state, a lot of the land was ceded to the federal government.

[elysiantraveller]

Federal owned and managed by the BLM. If it was state owned it would be managed by the Nevada DNR or whatever equivalent they have over there.

The whole solar project is a joke unless you believe Alex Jones.

[elysiantraveller]

Funny: Cattle can not graze feds land, but illegals sure can. Where is that militia attitude on ours borders? Tards

Illegals eat grass? Send some my way my mower is on the fritz.

[Clocker]

It has to do with a guy back in 1993 refusing to pay $1.35 per cow/calf pair per month to use government maintained land to feed his cash crop. After over 20 years and countless court rulings the government finally decided to confiscate the property of someone knowingly breaking the law.

There are two sides to every story, including this one. I certainly don't know all the facts. There is no doubt in my mind that Bundy is breaking the law. But I have seen evidence that he may be justified. This country was founded on certain principles, including the need to refuse to comply with unjust laws. Here is one take on the situation (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/why-you-should-be-sympathetic-toward-cliven-bundy.php).

First, it must be admitted that legally, Bundy doesn’t have a leg to stand on. The Bureau of Land Management has been charging him grazing fees since the early 1990s, which he has refused to pay. Further, BLM has issued orders limiting the area on which Bundy’s cows can graze and the number that can graze, and Bundy has ignored those directives. As a result, BLM has sued Bundy twice in federal court, and won both cases. In the second, more recent action, Bundy’s defense is that the federal government doesn’t own the land in question and therefore has no authority to regulate grazing. That simply isn’t right; the land, like most of Nevada, is federally owned. Bundy is representing himself, of necessity: no lawyer could make that argument.

That being the case, why does Bundy deserve our sympathy? To begin with, his family has been ranching on the acres at issue since the late 19th century. They and other settlers were induced to come to Nevada in part by the federal government’s promise that they would be able to graze their cattle on adjacent government-owned land. For many years they did so, with no limitations or fees. The Bundy family was ranching in southern Utah long before the BLM came into existence.

Over the last two or three decades, the Bureau has squeezed the ranchers in southern Nevada by limiting the acres on which their cattle can graze, reducing the number of cattle that can be on federal land, and charging grazing fees for the ever-diminishing privilege. The effect of these restrictions has been to drive the ranchers out of business. Formerly, there were dozens of ranches in the area where Bundy operates. Now, his ranch is the only one. When Bundy refused to pay grazing fees beginning in around 1993, he said something to the effect of, they are supposed to be charging me a fee for managing the land and all they are doing is trying to manage me out of business. Why should I pay them for that?



I see evidence there that the government is screwing people over and breaking promises. Hmm, deja vu of earlier inhabitants of the west?

[fast4522]

For the time being I am ignoring some aspects and would suggest that these SOB's are at every instant sticking it to the middle class. That being said what I think is resonating with the public is there is someone fighting back finally. Granted in the end they will be crushed but for today they back off because bad moves will send them into pure hell come November. Notice the same joc taking position here with the Harry Reid sides, like the ACA topic. Between break time, and lunch time, and November time there has to be some racing time so I might take a few days off for some serious handicapping for the KD and summer racing not to duck posts here.

[GaryG]

If he had named his ranch Benghazi the feds would have stayed as far away as possible.

[davew]

Harry Reid hasn't given up, and probably BLM (now ran by past Reid employee).

[classhandicapper]

All I know is that regardless of what side you are on in terms of whether Bundy should have to pay or not, it's frightening that we live in a country where the government thinks it's OK to send out armed men and women to confiscate private property, set up free speech zones, risk the lives of people and animals, and potentially cause a huge conflict etc.. over a monetary issue.

All it was going to take was one temper to flare or one bad decision and a shot would have gone off and a bunch of Americans would have gotten killed.

That's why even people that think Bundy is wrong are rallying to his side.

He may be wrong, but the government was preposterously out of line to react like this. We all already know our government is incompetent, corrupt, and taking us down the fast track to economic and social hell. But we now also know it is very dangerous. Perhaps the extreme right wing is not so crazy after all.

[elysiantraveller]

The order of events:

1) BLM informs Bundy they will be seizing his cattle.

2) Ranchers and Militia arrive heavily armed to Bundy Ranch.

3) To protect BLM during seizure of cattle Federal agents were called in for their potential protection.

The armed agents were a reactionary decision to the situation not for a smash and grab. Like I said before I don't agree with the response but it isn't like black helicopters suddenly appeared on the horizon to take some cows.

It should be noted that today the Nevada Cattle Ranchers Association refused to support Bundy who declared today that sheriffs should disarm all federal agents in Nevada. The guy is a separatist nutcase.

[fast4522]

1.) It's frightening that we live that beef prices are at a 27 year high.

2.) The price will go much higher.

3.) China is going to compete for buying American beef products.

4.) When hyperinflation comes to town there will be no fix.

[classhandicapper]

The order of events:

1) BLM informs Bundy they will be seizing his cattle.

2) Ranchers and Militia arrive heavily armed to Bundy Ranch.

3) To protect BLM during seizure of cattle Federal agents were called in for their potential protection.

The armed agents were a reactionary decision to the situation not for a smash and grab. Like I said before I don't agree with the response but it isn't like black helicopters suddenly appeared on the horizon to take some cows.

It should be noted that today the Nevada Cattle Ranchers Association refused to support Bundy who declared today that sheriffs should disarm all federal agents in Nevada. The guy is a separatist nutcase.

You could have stopped at #1. That's not the way to handle it. Bringing in armed personnel during the seizure was beyond idiotic.

[DJofSD]

Hey, the different agencies of the US government have acquired all of those rounds of ammo for a reason. Just a good opportunity to use 'em.

Next, they'll send in the US Postal Service for some training.

[GaryG]

Hey, the different agencies of the US government have acquired all of those rounds of ammo for a reason. Just a good opportunity to use 'em.

Next, they'll send in the US Postal Service for some training.I can see this becoming another Ruby Ridge or Waco. On their way out the feds killed two prize bulls, shot up the water tank, tore up water lines among other acts of vandalism. What about all of the Mexicans that are living on land they are not entitled to? They receive food stamps and voter registration cards.

[DJofSD]

They're a protected and sought after class.

Citizens are just tools.

[DJofSD]

The cows are pooping on the land and eating the grass (scrub brush).

Where's Hillary when we need her? "What difference does it make?"

[fast4522]

Without it nothing will grow next year, brown then green.

[DJofSD]

without it nothing will grow next year.
The poop or Hillary?

[Tom]

They're a protected and sought after class.

Citizens are just tools.

I though the government was all tools?

[classhandicapper]

Now Harry Reid is calling the people that came in support of Bundy domestic terrorists.

How is this idiot still in office?

There have been federal land grabs and ranchers slowly driven out of business by federal rules, regulations, and other actions all over the country and when someone defends against cows and bulls being confiscated somehow they are terrorists?

There was a way to settle this, but not by grabbing his herd and putting him and other Americans in danger when we are talking about pennies in federal government terms. Even if the government is legally right (which it probably is even though it's wrong in terms of the bigger picture), it's way out of line.

[Clocker]

There have been federal land grabs and ranchers slowly driven out of business by federal rules, regulations, and other actions all over the country and when someone defends against cows and bulls being confiscated somehow they are terrorists?



The facts are still not clear on the Bundy situation. It appears that both sides are in the wrong on a number of issues. But this appears to be one of many instances of the government, particularly in the form of the BLM, running amok.

Here is a case where the BLM harassed a family of ranchers for decades. The BLM acted so egregiously that a court eventually awarded the family over $4 million, plus $10 million in interest and legal fees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6mTN1uSh0

[JustRalph]

This guy is a militia member ..........

According to what's going around the net, he was covering BLM snipers in case they started shooting......."yikes

[Tom]

This is the only system of checks and balances that work.
BLM is the enemy here. Jack-booted American Storm Troopers.

The Second Amendment in action.

[elysiantraveller]

BLM is the enemy here. Jack-booted American Storm Troopers.

Because they tried to enforce the law?

[DJofSD]

Because they tried to enforce the law?
Exactly which law is being enforced?

[Clocker]

Exactly which law is being enforced?

And why does the law have to be enforced by BLM SWAT teams with snipers, herding cattle with helicopters?

And why does the Bureau of Land Management need SWAT teams and snipers?

[GaryG]

If they seize the cattle and try and sell them there will likely be no takers. There are any number of militia groups in that general area that could be mobilized. One can only imagine the consequences.

[elysiantraveller]

Exactly which law is being enforced?
Taxes for use of Federal Land for Grazing.

[elysiantraveller]

And why does the law have to be enforced by BLM SWAT teams with snipers, herding cattle with helicopters?

And why does the Bureau of Land Management need SWAT teams and snipers?
Because of the picture Ralph posted.

[DJofSD]

Taxes for use of Federal Land for Grazing.
Do you mean the fees normally collected by the BLM for grazing cattle?

[elysiantraveller]

Do you mean the fees normally collected by the BLM for grazing cattle?
Yes the ones Bundy refuses to pay despite court rukings going back to 1998 demanding he comply. Feel free to look up the United States v. Bundy.

[DJofSD]

Has Bundy been sued for trespassing?

[elysiantraveller]

Has Bundy been sued for trespassing?
Did I not just post United States v. Bundy? The District Court rules in favor of the Unites States.

[Robert Goren]

A lot of people have tried, but no one yet has won an armed stand off with the government.

[DJofSD]

A lot of people have tried, but no one yet has won an armed stand off with the government.
OH, I think you might be wrong.

[Clocker]

A lot of people have tried, but no one yet has won an armed stand off with the government.

And the government generally manages not to win either.

[Robert Goren]

OH, I think you might be wrong.Who? When?

[classhandicapper]

Did I not just post United States v. Bundy? The District Court rules in favor of the Unites States.

Bundy knows he's not complying with the law as does everyone here.

The issue is that the Federal government has been engaged in land grabs and has been driving ranchers and other business owners out of business for a very long time to advance its own agenda and the agenda of certain constituencies.

There have been cases where the courts stated that the tactics used by the government to achieve its ends were shocking.

This is one guy finally saying F U to the government.

A lot of people in the country are saying "We get it that theoretically he should be paying the fees, but the government has unfairly driven all these ranchers out of business using tactics we do not approve of and we don't think confiscating his cows and bulls, killing some of them, tazering his son, damaging his private property on the land, trampling the tortoise dens that are being used as the excuse for this, and raising the risk of an armed confrontation was the correct way to deal with it. So you know what, we are on his side. We say F U too".

(Not to mention the feds probably spent more on this than he owes)

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/why-you-should-be-sympathetic-toward-cliven-bundy.php

[BlueShoe]

Now Harry Reid is calling the people that came in support of Bundy domestic terrorists.

How is this idiot still in office?
Yep, Oily is all over this one, his mug has been all over the media in the last 24 hours or so, insinuating, in that sneering sly voice of his, that these people are domestic terrorists. Good old Oil Can Harry, has he ever been on the correct side of any issue?

[DJofSD]

Who? When?
There was one instance that ended in 1783.

And then there was another that ended in 1975.

[Tom]

This is one guy finally saying F U to the government.

And we should stand up and support him coast to coast.
This government deserves no respect.

Just say NO to the USA.

[DJofSD]

Just say NO?

Nancy, is that you?

[elysiantraveller]

Bundy knows he's not complying with the law as does everyone here.
There is NO land grab here! The feds have owned it since Nevada joined the Union. They are simply regulating use which is the norm for every piece of state and federal land nationwide. The Nevada Ranchers Association doesn't even agree with him. First the guy tried religion than that it belonged to the state then circulated a publication essentially declaring a range war and calling on militia support.

Like I have said I don't agree with how its been handled but anyone who truly supports him and feel the feds don't have a case are too blinded by their anti-government bias to think rationally.

[davew]

It is not going to end well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ6H9vlEDA#t=28

[DJofSD]

Obama is setting the example the Bundy supporters are following.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-signs-ted-cruz-bill-into-law-but-says-he-wont-enforce-it/article/2547462?custom_click=rss

[DJofSD]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57836973-90/utah-lands-lawmakers-federal.html.csp

It’s time for Western states to take control of federal lands within their borders, lawmakers and county commissioners from Western states said at Utah’s Capitol on Friday.

More than 50 political leaders from nine states convened for the first time to talk about their joint goal: wresting control of oil-, timber -and mineral-rich lands away from the feds.

Where's this going? East v. West?

"It’s time the states in the West come of age," Bedke said. "We’re every bit as capable of managing the lands in our boundaries as the states east of Colorado."

[elysiantraveller]

Some more from Bundy: "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don't recognize the United States government as even existing."

He then went on to declare Nevada a Sovereign State... Whew!... guess we don't have to worry about the Tea Party putting him up for some Congressional office...

:jump: :jump: :jump:

[fast4522]

Say what you want but, the last thing they want is Bundy out of business running for Senator. The next response is Senator Reid and seat is OWNED by the casino industry and it could never happen. These are strange days indeed, God bless America we have 49 others.

[DJofSD]

That's 56.

[Tom]

Some more from Bundy: "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don't recognize the United States government as even existing."

Sounds like Obama.

[fast4522]

Western lawmakers gather in Utah to talk federal land takeover.
Ho HO Ho!, Not something the likes of Harry Reid would want.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57836973-90/utah-lands-lawmakers-federal.html.csp

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314025/how-did-harry-reid-get-rich-betsy-woodruff

[elysiantraveller]

Sounds like Obama.

:confused:

What are you talking about?

[DJofSD]

Here's a clue.

Who said, "I do as a damn well please."

[elysiantraveller]

Here's a clue.

Who said, "I do as a damn well please."
:lol:

You guys have officially lost it...

What in the **** does this have to do with Obama?!?! These laws were passed in 1993!

Furthermore saying something like Obama doesn't recognize the Federal Government is pretty ****ing dumb seeing as how he is the leader of said Federal Government. Not only that he is responsible for the largest federally mandated reform of the health system since LBJ's "Great Society" so I'm pretty sure he gets how it works.

Cows in Nevada are apparently directly related to the President... :lol:

I swear if I got on here one day and complained I had a nasty case of the shits several of you would try to find a way to blame the President for my plight... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[DJofSD]

I guess more than just horses wear blinders.

[elysiantraveller]

I guess more than just horses wear blinders.
Tie this issue to Obama... ready... go...

See this is the typical MO of alot of people here. If they don't really have a point they just blindly stab at Obama no matter his level of involvement (in this case none). Then when called on the stupidity of their comments move on to attacking the person challenging them.

[DJofSD]

Obama ignores his oath of office. He does whatever fits his political agenda and does not do anything which is contrary to it.

An example off the top of my head: recess appointments when the Congress is not in recess.

[elysiantraveller]

Obama ignores his oath of office. He does whatever fits his political agenda and does not do anything which is contrary to it.

An example off the top of my head: recess appointments when the Congress is not in recess.
Which has what to do with the OT or him not recognizing the Federal Government?

[DJofSD]

What part of 'does not follow the rules' do you not understand?

Bundy losses in court and ignores the judges ruling.

Obama, in the above example, violates the Constitution.

Both have taken a sworn oath but do as they please when it goes against them.

[fast4522]

For the shallow the United States Constitution means little when they have a dog or a few dogs in the race.

[Tom]

What part of 'does not follow the rules' do you not understand?

You are :bang:

[fast4522]

Time for a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgbCtHV2cA8

[JustRalph]

Interesting meeting

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57836973-90/utah-federal-lands-states.html.csp

[Robert Goren]

Today is the anniversary of the OK City bombing. You have to wander how far away this kook is from those kooks. Not far I think.

[fast4522]

Today is the anniversary of the OK City bombing. You have to wander how far away this kook is from those kooks. Not far I think.


Why would you post in the link Grits started about that subject then post about it here bright one?

[Robert Goren]

Why would you post in the link Grits started about that subject then post about it here bright one?Different views of same subject. I did not think adding post about Bundy belonged in Grits's thread which is more a remembering the deed thread. This is a kook against the government thread or at least I think it is.

[Show Me the Wire]

Different views of same subject. I did not think adding post about Bundy belonged in Grits's thread which is more a remembering the deed thread. This is a kook against the government thread or at least I think it is.

Nice try. It is about government abusing its power.

[fast4522]

Hayseeds post too, I get it.

[Tom]

Today is the anniversary of the OK City bombing. You have to wander how far away this kook is from those kooks. Not far I think.

Utter nonsense.


ba dum

[Robert Goren]

Nice try. It is about government abusing its power.Isn't that what McVey and company thought too? Revenge for Waco, I believe was his excuse.

[JustRalph]

Isn't that what McVey and company thought too? Revenge for Waco, I believe was his excuse.

Therefore proving the point, about out of control government.

[Show Me the Wire]

Isn't that what McVey and company thought too? Revenge for Waco, I believe was his excuse.

Where is revenge as a motivation mentioned in this thread, except for your post? Especially as revenge, in retaliation for, a totally unrelated incident?

[fast4522]

It is in the wax in his ears.

[Robert Goren]

Where is revenge as a motivation mentioned in this thread, except for your post? Especially as revenge, in retaliation for, a totally unrelated incident?Hatred for the federal government is the common theme for both McVey and Bundy. There isn't much separating the two. If you disagree with the government, you go to court. Bundy did that and lost and is now in an armed standoff with the government. He is wrong period. You can't take up arms against the government and be right. To do so is crazy.

[Show Me the Wire]

Hatred for the federal government is the common theme for both McVey and Bundy. There isn't much separating the two. If you disagree with the government, you go to court. Bundy did that and lost and is now in an armed standoff with the government. He is wrong period. You can't take up arms against the government and be right. To do so is crazy.

Oh, I see. Government can't abuse its powers. You are probably upset because the founding fathers, of the United States, didn't take the government to court.

[classhandicapper]

There is NO land grab here! The feds have owned it since Nevada joined the Union. They are simply regulating use which is the norm for every piece of state and federal land nationwide. The Nevada Ranchers Association doesn't even agree with him. First the guy tried religion than that it belonged to the state then circulated a publication essentially declaring a range war and calling on militia support.

Like I have said I don't agree with how its been handled but anyone who truly supports him and feel the feds don't have a case are too blinded by their anti-government bias to think rationally.

Legality does not = right.

These ranchers used the land long before it was federal land and they were promised they could continue using the land. Then the Feds imposed fees and herd reductions that make their businesses unviable.

They are doing that because there are almost certainly corrupt political payoffs and deals involved.

They are spending more to drive the Bundy family off the land than he owes. That should tell you everything you need to know.

[Tom]

You can't take up arms against the government and be right.

Do we have to give back the tea?

Of course you do. Whey do you think they wrote the 2nd Amendment?
It was not to protect hunters.

[JustRalph]

I read the other day that the BLM owns 81% of Nevada

That's an amazing number

[davew]

Legality does not = right.

These ranchers used the land long before it was federal land and they were promised they could continue using the land. Then the Feds imposed fees and herd reductions that make their businesses unviable.

They are doing that because there are almost certainly corrupt political payoffs and deals involved.

They are spending more to drive the Bundy family off the land than he owes. That should tell you everything you need to know.

The United States went to war with Mexico to get some of their land. In 1848, most of present day southwestern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_United_States) United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) ceded to the U.S. in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guadalupe_Hidalgo). The region became federal land then.

It may be a stretch to say ranchers used this land before it became federal land, unless they were on spaniish mexican land a couple hundred years ago.

During the American Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War), Nevada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada)'s entry into statehood in the United States was expedited by Union sympathizers in order to ensure Nevada's participation in the 1864 presidential election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864_presidential_election) in support of President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) Abraham Lincoln (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln). (only 40,000 inhabitants in NV at the time)

In total, Nevada sent 1,200 men to fight for the Union during the civil war; but its main contribution to the cause was $400 million in silver from the Comstock Lode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_Lode), which was used to finance the war.

The Federal government gave some land to NV and also there were blocks of land that got 'homesteaded' by settlers. I am not sure when that actually stopped.

In 1946, the US Grazing Service merged with the General Land office to form the Bureau of Land Management within the Department of the Interior. At the time, there were over 2,000 unrelated and often conflicting laws for managing the public lands. The BLM had no unified legislative mandate until Congress enacted the Federal Land Policy and Management Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Land_Policy_and_Management_Act) of 1976 (FLPMA).

I would imagine there are still conflicting laws on who can do what and who has access to what, depending on what you want to follow.

[elysiantraveller]

Legality does not = right.

These ranchers used the land long before it was federal land and they were promised they could continue using the land. Then the Feds imposed fees and herd reductions that make their businesses unviable.

They are doing that because there are almost certainly corrupt political payoffs and deals involved.

They are spending more to drive the Bundy family off the land than he owes. That should tell you everything you need to know.

I love how you and DJ both say this belongs to the courts only to find out that courts have already ruled it now becomes a government abuse of power.

When you pay $20 to camp overnight on Yosemite is the government abusing its power then too?... just curious as to your take.

My guess is probably not but then again its a lot harder to politicize camp sites than a crazy right wing whack job attempting to rip off the government, declaring a range war, and calling in militia groups for protection against a cattle round-up.

[Tom]

If the government gets to decide what laws it will enforce, then we get to decide what laws we will obey. We allow illegals to live in sanctuary cities, so now we will decide to allow cattle to have sanctuary on this land.

Screw Uncle Sam...we don't need no stinking fees.

Power to the Bundy's!
Let's rock!

[davew]

If the government gets to decide what laws it will enforce, then we get to decide what laws we will obey. We allow illegals to live in sanctuary cities, so now we will decide to allow cattle to have sanctuary on this land.

Screw Uncle Sam...we don't need no stinking fees.

Power to the Bundy's!
Let's rock!

Thats good, as 0bama and Holder seem to be deciding what laws to enforce, I will continue to decide what laws to obey.

[elysiantraveller]

If the government gets to decide what laws it will enforce, then we get to decide what laws we will obey. We allow illegals to live in sanctuary cities, so now we will decide to allow cattle to have sanctuary on this land.

Screw Uncle Sam...we don't need no stinking fees.

Power to the Bundy's!
Let's rock!

Typical changing of the subject again.

[Robert Goren]

Just remember when you start trying to rectify things because the government went back on its word, you are going have to deal with Native Americans. I am not so sure that I want to deal with that can of worms. And I have never heard anybody calling them a conservative say they want to go back and honor all the broken treaties. From what I have seen, the only time the right is concerned about a broken deal by the federal government is when a white male thinks he is on short end of the stick. If a Native American seized some land that was rightfully his under some old broken treaty and was holding off the feds with guns, how many of the Bundy supporters rally behind him?

[fast4522]

November might fix many asses including Senator Reid's. Minority leader Pelosi was pictured washing feet the other day on the Drudge, Reid looks like a toe sucker in my book, lets see if he gains power in November.

[classhandicapper]

I love how you and DJ both say this belongs to the courts only to find out that courts have already ruled it now becomes a government abuse of power.

When you pay $20 to camp overnight on Yosemite is the government abusing its power then too?... just curious as to your take.

My guess is probably not but then again its a lot harder to politicize camp sites than a crazy right wing whack job attempting to rip off the government, declaring a range war, and calling in militia groups for protection against a cattle round-up.

I have no problem with paying a camping fee as long as I know the rules and prices beforehand.

If however you tell me I can set up camp, but later impose confiscatory fees and new rules that make it unviable for me to camp even though I have already dedicated all my resources to doing just that, you are a scumbag. You are a double scumbag if you are driving me off that land to line your own pockets with a corrupt deal on that public land or to gain political power with a constituency that makes donations to your campaign.

It's that simple.

None of us thinks Bundy doesn't owe money.

We think the government is a bunch of corrupt jack hooded thugs whose intention was to drive honest hard working Americans off land they always used by imposing conditions and costs they knew were unreasonable and that made those businesses unviable. They did it for corrupt self interest.

If this was the mafia (an equally corrupt but generally more righteous organization), the government would get whacked.

The way to fix this was to sit down with ranchers decades ago and create a grazing fee that was reasonable to both sides so that the ranchers could remain in business but the government could collect a fee on the land. It was not to drive down herd sizes, raise fees, make the businesses unviable and destroy families, and then seize and kill cows.

[Robert Goren]

I have no problem with paying a camping fee as long as I know the rules and prices beforehand.

If however you tell me I can set up camp, but later impose confiscatory fees and new rules that make it unviable for me to camp even though I have already dedicated all my resources to doing just that, you are a scumbag. You are a double scumbag if you are driving me off that land to line your own pockets with a corrupt deal on that public land or to gain political power with a constituency that makes donations to your campaign.

It's that simple.

None of us thinks Bundy doesn't owe money.

We think the government is a bunch of corrupt jack hooded thugs whose intention was to drive honest hard working Americans off land they always used by imposing conditions and costs they knew were unreasonable and that made those businesses unviable. They did it for corrupt self interest.

If this was the mafia (an equally corrupt but generally more righteous organization), the government would get whacked.

The way to fix this was to sit down with ranchers decades ago and create a grazing fee that was reasonable to both sides so that the ranchers could remain in business but the government could collect a fee on the land. It was not to drive down herd sizes, raise fees, make the businesses unviable and destroy families, and then seize and kill cows.He is another fairly well off jerk who thinks the government ought to cover some his business expenses . He is in the wrong. plain and simple. He had his day in court and lost. Comparing the government with the Mafia is just plain silly and destroys your credibility. Other ranchers are paying the grazing fees, so why should this nut not pay too?

[DJofSD]

Just remember when you start trying to rectify things because the government went back on its word, you are going have to deal with Native Americans. I am not so sure that I want to deal with that can of worms. And I have never heard anybody calling them a conservative say they want to go back and honor all the broken treaties. From what I have seen, the only time the right is concerned about a broken deal by the federal government is when a white male thinks he is on short end of the stick. If a Native American seized some land that was rightfully his under some old broken treaty and was holding off the feds with guns, how many of the Bundy supporters rally behind him?
A bit of mission creep, don't you think?

Let's not obfuscate the issue by trying to solve all wrongs for all time of the federal government.

As for the only pertaining to white males you must be wearing your 1960's era rose colored glasses again.

[classhandicapper]

He is another fairly well off jerk who thinks the government ought to cover some his business expenses . He is in the wrong. plain and simple. He had his day in court and lost. Comparing the government with the Mafia is just plain silly and destroys your credibility. Other ranchers are paying the grazing fees, so why should this nut not pay too?

You are right. I shouldn't have compared the government to the Mafia.

The Mafia is well known to be a corrupt band of gangsters that wreaks havoc on many communities. The government masquerades as doing good and then wreaks havoc.

From what I've read no one is paying the grazing fees because all the other families have been driven out of business. The Bundy's are the last family remaining.

That's the core of the problem.

IMO, this is what should have happened.

The government should have sat down with the ranchers that had been there for generations a long time ago and created a grazing fee that was reasonable to both sides so that the ranchers could remain in business but the government could collect fees on the land. They could continue to adjust the deal over time as long as they all remained reasonable. If there's a much better use for that land, then they could have compensated the families in some way for the loss of their business.

That's not what happened.

The intention was to drive them off. So they imposed rules on heard sizes and monetary fees that made their businesses unviable. That drove all the families off the land and out of business except the Bundys. So naturally there is going to be a huge backlash in that community. They've destroyed many families and lives.

Do a reasonable deal and there is no problem.

Intentionally destroy families and lives and there's a problem.

Do it for corrupt and political reasons and there's a big problem.

The fess have nothing to do with this. The government spent more on this than the Bundy's owe.

Form here, IMO it's still possible to negotiate a deal that is fair and reasonable without bringing in armed brown shirts and killing cows, bulls, destroying private property, and flattening endangered tortoise dens.

John Gotti wouldn't want to go to war with the Reid Crime Family.

[Tom]

Typical changing of the subject again.

Typical not being able to keep up again. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

You are right. I shouldn't have compared the government to the Mafia.


The Mafia has a code of honor.
The government, not so much.

[DJofSD]

You are right. I shouldn't have compared the government to the Mafia.

The Mafia is well known to be a corrupt band of gangsters that wreaks havoc on many communities. The government masquerades as doing good and then wreaks havoc.

From what I've read no one is paying the grazing fees because all the other families have been driven out of business. The Bundy's are the last family remaining.

That's the core of the problem.

IMO, this is what should have happened.

The government should have sat down with the ranchers that had been there for generations a long time ago and created a grazing fee that was reasonable to both sides so that the ranchers could remain in business but the government could collect fees on the land. They could continue to adjust the deal over time as long as they all remained reasonable. If there's a much better use for that land, then they could have compensated the families in some way for the loss of their business.

That's not what happened.

The intention was to drive them off. So they imposed rules on heard sizes and monetary fees that made their businesses unviable. That drove all the families off the land and out of business except the Bundys. So naturally there is going to be a huge backlash in that community. They've destroyed many families and lives.

Do a reasonable deal and there is no problem.

Intentionally destroy families and lives and there's a problem.

Do it for corrupt and political reasons and there's a big problem.

The fess have nothing to do with this. The government spent more on this than the Bundy's owe.

Form here, IMO it's still possible to negotiate a deal that is fair and reasonable without bringing in armed brown shirts and killing cows, bulls, destroying private property, and flattening endangered tortoise dens.

John Gotti wouldn't want to go to war with the Reid Crime Family.
The federal government is picking winners again.

So much for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Robert Goren]

You are right. I shouldn't have compared the government to the Mafia.

The Mafia is well known to be a corrupt band of gangsters that wreaks havoc on many communities. The government masquerades as doing good and then wreaks havoc.

From what I've read no one is paying the grazing fees because all the other families have been driven out of business. The Bundy's are the last family remaining.

That's the core of the problem.

IMO, this is what should have happened.

The government should have sat down with the ranchers that had been there for generations a long time ago and created a grazing fee that was reasonable to both sides so that the ranchers could remain in business but the government could collect fees on the land. They could continue to adjust the deal over time as long as they all remained reasonable. If there's a much better use for that land, then they could have compensated the families in some way for the loss of their business.

That's not what happened.

The intention was to drive them off. So they imposed rules on heard sizes and monetary fees that made their businesses unviable. That drove all the families off the land and out of business except the Bundys. So naturally there is going to be a huge backlash in that community. They've destroyed many families and lives.

Do a reasonable deal and there is no problem.

Intentionally destroy families and lives and there's a problem.

Do it for corrupt and political reasons and there's a big problem.

The fess have nothing to do with this. The government spent more on this than the Bundy's owe.

Form here, IMO it's still possible to negotiate a deal that is fair and reasonable without bringing in armed brown shirts and killing cows, bulls, destroying private property, and flattening endangered tortoise dens.

John Gotti wouldn't want to go to war with the Reid Crime Family.My question to you is: How is the rancher in western Nebraska who has to either buy grazing land or rent from a private land owner suppose to compete with the guy who is getting free grazing from the government. Not exactly a level playing field is it? I think the government ought to sell off all the grazing and let market decide what is fair. I can guarantee Bundy would not like that either.

[Hank]

Just remember when you start trying to rectify things because the government went back on its word, you are going have to deal with Native Americans. I am not so sure that I want to deal with that can of worms. And I have never heard anybody calling them a conservative say they want to go back and honor all the broken treaties. From what I have seen, the only time the right is concerned about a broken deal by the federal government is when a white male thinks he is on short end of the stick. If a Native American seized some land that was rightfully his under some old broken treaty and was holding off the feds with guns, how many of the Bundy supporters rally behind him?

Very nice post.It will not be appreciated here however. The prevailing sentiment here will be something like["Native Americans who gives a shit about those animals.They are "takers"] The real irony here, is that THEY are starting to understand that THEY will also be DISPOSSESSED soon,thus the pathetic little militia groups and what not. They are Like a weak chess players feverishly making moves
not comprehending that the trap is sprung and the game is OVER.Don't think so, "READ" the "PATRIOT"[talk abut irony] act and the NDAA.

[fast4522]

The wrong state, but the same vampire.

Feds draw criticism for selling Wyoming horses for slaughter

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/20/feds-draw-criticism-for-selling-wyoming-horses-for-slaughter/

[elysiantraveller]

Typical not being able to keep up again. :rolleyes:

Textbook change the subject then personal attack... see post 80.

Come back when you can make a cohesive argument.

[Tom]

It was a play on your post, hence the :rolleyes:

Come back when you grow a set.
If you call that a personal attack, maybe you should avoid the internet.

[Tom]

My question to you is: How is the rancher in western Nebraska who has to either buy grazing land or rent from a private land owner suppose to compete with the guy who is getting free grazing from the government. Not exactly a level playing field is it?

A lot like those of us who have jobs and work and try to get ahead, feed out families, pay our bills having to carry those who do not take care of themselves?
They get free handouts for the government, but those handouts come of my earnings. Not exactly a fair playing field, is it?

[Tom]

They are Like a weak chess players feverishly making moves
not comprehending that the trap is sprung and the game is OVER.Don't think so, "READ" the "PATRIOT"[talk abut irony] act and the NDAA.

So Hank, after we are displaced, who you gonna take the wealth from?
Surely you are not expecting the takers to suddenly get jobs and at their own way are you? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[elysiantraveller]

You are right. I shouldn't have compared the government to the Mafia.

The Mafia is well known to be a corrupt band of gangsters that wreaks havoc on many communities. The government masquerades as doing good and then wreaks havoc.

From what I've read no one is paying the grazing fees because all the other families have been driven out of business. The Bundy's are the last family remaining.

That's the core of the problem.

IMO, this is what should have happened.

The government should have sat down with the ranchers that had been there for generations a long time ago and created a grazing fee that was reasonable to both sides so that the ranchers could remain in business but the government could collect fees on the land. They could continue to adjust the deal over time as long as they all remained reasonable. If there's a much better use for that land, then they could have compensated the families in some way for the loss of their business.

That's not what happened.

The intention was to drive them off. So they imposed rules on heard sizes and monetary fees that made their businesses unviable. That drove all the families off the land and out of business except the Bundys. So naturally there is going to be a huge backlash in that community. They've destroyed many families and lives.

Do a reasonable deal and there is no problem.

Intentionally destroy families and lives and there's a problem.

Do it for corrupt and political reasons and there's a big problem.

The fess have nothing to do with this. The government spent more on this than the Bundy's owe.

Form here, IMO it's still possible to negotiate a deal that is fair and reasonable without bringing in armed brown shirts and killing cows, bulls, destroying private property, and flattening endangered tortoise dens.

John Gotti wouldn't want to go to war with the Reid Crime Family.
Where are you getting this information from??!?!?

Its a $1.35 per head and calf per month. So using that math the most he would have to pay for his 900 head would be $1215 per month. So for $1200 he could potentially feed his 900 head plus all their calves...

The cost of a whole cow ranges between $900-$2000 so for the cost of 1 cow out of his herd per month his grazing costs are paid for... Yep horrible deal... :rolleyes:

Furthermore it isn't even about the money. The guy has said he will pay the fees he owes just not to the government that actually manages the land so the whole "driving ranchers out of business" mantra is cow-shit... pun intended. That would be like me going to my local AT&T store to pay my mortgage. Why do you think the Nevada Cattle Rancher's Association has officially refused to support him?

The guy is screwing the American Tax-Payer not standing up for them and his laundry list of excuses for doing so is quite exhausting.

A lot of you said the courts should handle this... they did... but since this issue has now been politicized along party lines all rational thought no longer matters despite the fact this has absolutely NOTHING to do with left/right politics, Obama, or Illegal immigration.

[elysiantraveller]

It was a play on your post, hence the :rolleyes:

Come back when you grow a set.
If you call that a personal attack, maybe you should avoid the internet.

I have a set Tom... You have said absolutely nothing yet to refute the points I make. Ever stayed at a state or federal campground? Did you refuse to pay your site fees? If not you are a ****ing hypocrit.

Personal enough?

[elysiantraveller]

Bundy gets free handouts for the government, but those handouts come of my earnings. Not exactly a fair playing field, is it?

FTFY

[davew]

My question to you is: How is the rancher in western Nebraska who has to either buy grazing land or rent from a private land owner suppose to compete with the guy who is getting free grazing from the government. Not exactly a level playing field is it? I think the government ought to sell off all the grazing and let market decide what is fair. I can guarantee Bundy would not like that either.

It is difficult to place a value on things, sometimes free is too much. The desert land being grazed takes near 300 acres to support a cow/calf. Compare that to Nebraska prairie which is less than 2 acres per cow/calf. I live 30 miles from a major metrolitan area. Going towards the city, there are many 'small' parcels that are farmed rent free. These are near high traffic areas, new housing developments and are frequently less than 5 acres. Nevada cattle are rough and not worth as much as Nebraska cattle when sold.

Do you know how much mining companys pay for their claim area on federal lands? Some of these companies have pulled hundreds of millions from the ground.

[Tom]

Personal enough?

Your really are not cut out for human interaction.
The Magic 8 Ball as made with you in mind. :lol:

[elysiantraveller]

[QUOTom]Your really are not cut out for human interaction.
The Magic 8 Ball as made with you in mind. :lol:[/QUOTE]

:lol:

Awww c'mon Tom. Just grow a set.

Speaking of human interaction though I'm pretty sure I asked you a question. Its rude not to answer.

[fast4522]

Is that the real question, which way they swing?

Time for a tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX7qpR4Mr-I

[JustRalph]

This is a crappy reason to defy the government in my opine. I get the whole west vs the government and grazing rights argument. But it would be much more of a salient argument if he made it in the early stages of his defiance

After all this time I think it kind of defies his argument that this is such an important issue.

This may be the first thing Obama has done right in five years though. I believe the admin knows that they are staring at a hair trigger on many subjects. There are many many people out there in the 53% that are just about done with this government. They are looking for a reason to retaliate.

A President that can't leave the White House is just another dictator surrounded by a rebellion regardless of title. A legacy of revolt is the only thing worse that could happen beyond the seeds that he has already sewn.

Pulling BLM out and their gunman, was the best way to defuse.

[classhandicapper]

Where are you getting this information from??!?!?

Its a $1.35 per head and calf per month. So using that math the most he would have to pay for his 900 head would be $1215 per month. So for $1200 he could potentially feed his 900 head plus all their calves...

The cost of a whole cow ranges between $900-$2000 so for the cost of 1 cow out of his herd per month his grazing costs are paid for... Yep horrible deal... :rolleyes:



If the government's demand that the ranchers "reduce their heard sizes" to protect endangered tortoises (that have since been steamrolled as part of this operation) and pay the fees is not a factor in the business then why is he the last remaining rancher in this area?

Why did all the other generational ranchers in his area go out of business if they had such a good deal and were welcomed to do business?

Why are his neighbors, friends, former ranchers that are now out of business, and the sheriff on his side now if he's just an unreasonable prick looking to avoid taxes?

Why did several state courts express shock at the tactics used by federal government even if they ruled in the government's favor?

Why did the government spend more to round up his cows, bulls, and destroy his private property (including killing some of his herd) in this operation than he actually owes?

Why is there any backlash at all if the government has been reasonable?

The answer is that the ranchers were all driven out of business because the government does not want them on the land. The Harry Reed crime family wants to use the land for some corrupt deal or as political payback. That's not very hard to admit.

[PaceAdvantage]

From what I have seen, the only time the right is concerned about a broken deal by the federal government is when a white male thinks he is on short end of the stick.Oh Christ, here we go again.

[PaceAdvantage]

Very nice post.It will not be appreciated here however. The prevailing sentiment here will be something like["Native Americans who gives a shit about those animals.They are "takers"] The real irony here, is that THEY are starting to understand that THEY will also be DISPOSSESSED soon,thus the pathetic little militia groups and what not. They are Like a weak chess players feverishly making moves
not comprehending that the trap is sprung and the game is OVER.Don't think so, "READ" the "PATRIOT"[talk abut irony] act and the NDAA.Who exactly are you putting into those "militia groups?"

Specifically, what socio-economic group? And what posters here would you vision being members of those militia groups?

[classhandicapper]

More land grabs and rancher issues to come.

http://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/tortoises-first-bundy-ranch-just-a-part-of-the-western-lands-in-the-blm-crosshairs-15557/

[Hank]

Who exactly are you putting into those "militia groups?"

Specifically, what socio-economic group? And what posters here would you vision being members of those militia groups?

Strange question,"I" am not putting anyone into those "militia groups" I am merely an observer.

[PaceAdvantage]

Strange question,"I" am not putting anyone into those "militia groups" I am merely an observer.So then I misinterpreted this comment from you?

"The real irony here, is that THEY are starting to understand that THEY will also be DISPOSSESSED soon,thus the pathetic little militia groups and what not."

OK then. Maybe I should word it another way. Who is THEY?

[TJDave]

Strange question,"I" am not putting anyone into those "militia groups" I am merely an observer.

Traditionally, those who associate with militia groups either wind up in jail or dead. I don't think anyone here would be stupid enough to do that.

[Hank]

[OK then. Maybe I should word it another way. Who is THEY?]

Ok,I'd say... THEY would be rural, right-wing and white for the most part.

[Hank]

Oh Christ, here we go again.

RG's assertion Should make for a simple refutation.Go for it.

[PaceAdvantage]

[OK then. Maybe I should word it another way. Who is THEY?]

Ok,I'd say... THEY would be rural, right-wing and white for the most part.Is that because they don't let any non-whites into the militias?

You forgot one thing. Your original statement implied they were also wealthy. But you left that off your list.

[PaceAdvantage]

RG's assertion Should make for a simple refutation.Go for it.Refute what? I don't even know what he's trying to say.

That the Republican party is the party of the white man, and the Democrat party is the party of the black man?

No wonder the jobless rate for blacks is still way too high compared to whites then...thanks for solving that problem.

[JustRalph]

Been reading a little about these grazing arguments. I found out that when the Feds took over control of this land originally, way back, they promised to never charge any fees to the families of the original lease holders. Over the years that has changed apparently.

I find that makes some difference. Makes the Bundy argument a little more interesting...........yet I wonder why they waited to take it this far, on both sides.

[Hank]

Is that because they don't let any non-whites into the militias?

You forgot one thing. Your original statement implied they were also wealthy. But you left that off your list.




" Very nice post.It will not be appreciated here however. The prevailing sentiment here will be something like["Native Americans who gives a shit about those animals.They are "takers"] The real irony here, is that THEY are starting to understand that THEY will also be DISPOSSESSED soon,thus the pathetic little militia groups and what not. They are Like a weak chess players feverishly making moves
not comprehending that the trap is sprung and the game is OVER.Don't think so, "READ" the "PATRIOT"[talk abut irony] act and the NDAA."

Here is my post, please point out were I imply anything about wealth.

I'm not sure, some probable would accept non-whites others not.I have seen only whites in the footage.

[Hank]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
From what I have seen, the only time the right is concerned about a broken deal by the federal government is when a white male thinks he is on short end of the stick.
Oh Christ, here we go again.

Here you go.

[tucker6]

Hank, the more posts of yours I read, the less I learn.

[Tom]

When he and Goren get together in a thread, I can feel the air being sucked out of it.

Both are talking about Boogey Men.

[davew]

Refute what? I don't even know what he's trying to say.

That the Republican party is the party of the white man, and the Democrat party is the party of the black man?

No wonder the jobless rate for blacks is still way too high compared to whites then...thanks for solving that problem.

Thats just not right, I think the Democratic party gives 'false' HOPE to ALL minorities.

[TJDave]

That the Republican party is the party of the white man, and the Democrat party is the party of the black man?


Both parties are run by predominantly rich white men who are intentionally selling everyone and everything else down the river.

[GaryG]

Leave it to the liberals to turn a thread about grazing cows into a racial issue. I guess it is from force of habit.

[classhandicapper]

Been reading a little about these grazing arguments. I found out that when the Feds took over control of this land originally, way back, they promised to never charge any fees to the families of the original lease holders. Over the years that has changed apparently.

I find that makes some difference. Makes the Bundy argument a little more interesting...........yet I wonder why they waited to take it this far, on both sides.

I would guess most of the ranchers decided they couldn't win a fight against a rigged system. So they threw in the towel and went into another business. Let's face it, this is likely to get very ugly for the Bundy family no matter how many ex ranchers and militias members are on his side.

I guess the extent of the land grabs, the number of ranchers, miners, loggers, etc... that have been put out of business, and the general animosity towards the government are probably at an all time high. Add it all together and some people eventually throw some tea in the harbor even if it's likely to end badly.

If I was him I'd go into another business and pay the fees. Then I'd vent my experience to newspapers, blogs, and local politicians, sign petitions etc...

But I applaud his courage to fight back given how poorly it has been handled by the government. He has to reduce his herd, lost cattle, had private property destroyed, and we almost had bloodshed over a stinking 1M dollars. They feds have already spent way more than that fighting the family.

There's a reasonable solution to this problem somewhere, but that's not what the government wants. It wants all these people off the land.

[classhandicapper]

Here's the official Bundy Ranch Facebook page where they are giving updates and displayed pictures of the mass grave of cows and of the bulls that were executed by government forces.

https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch

[tucker6]

Why aren't we defending our borders against foreign nationals again??

[davew]

BLM does what they want

A few years ago sued for rackeeteering under RICO
http://www.livestockweekly.com/papers/02/09/05/whlrico.asp

[Hank]

Hank, the more posts of yours I read, the less I learn.

My humble pardon sir, I shall endeavor to elevate the educational level of my post in the future.

[davew]

I heard that the BLM paid a company in Utah $960,000 to round up these cattle, and a Utah auctionhouse $350,000 to auction the cattle. The governor of Utah said we don't want those cattle in our state.

The Bundys have no idea where the $1 million number is coming from, as the last they heard it was near $230,000. They have been finding mass grave sites where some of their cattle have recently been buried.

The government is going to spend $5 - 8 million to get this family OFF the land.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Paging, FanDan...

...embed a clip of the Stewart show on this one. Just watched the clip on a news story and it was pretty damn funny. :D

[FantasticDan]

Ask and ye shall receive.. altho I don't see it on YT to embed, so links will have to do..

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/v4jh6e/apocalypse-cow

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/ucrk7y/apocalypse-cow---welfare-rancher

[RaceBookJoe]

Been reading a little about these grazing arguments. I found out that when the Feds took over control of this land originally, way back, they promised to never charge any fees to the families of the original lease holders. Over the years that has changed apparently.

I find that makes some difference. Makes the Bundy argument a little more interesting...........yet I wonder why they waited to take it this far, on both sides.

Do you have any links on that? Would love to read up on the issue a bit more, thanks.

[JustRalph]

Do you have any links on that? Would love to read up on the issue a bit more, thanks.

I hit a link in an article that took me to it. I will see if I can dig it out of my history.

[davew]

Harry Reids kid and chinese making 5000 acre solar farm - displaces turle reserve, need Bundys area - BLM decides Texas is really Oklahoma and want it back - trying to take 90,000 acres from Texas ranch family that they own -

http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=23892


no wonder the BLM needs its own army

[FantasticDan]

Harry Reids kid and chinese making 5000 acre solar farm - displaces turle reserve, need Bundys area - BLM decides Texas is really Oklahoma and want it back - trying to take 90,000 acres from Texas ranch family that they own -

http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=23892

:eek: :D

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp

[hcap]

Clive Bundy or Al? Sounds a lot like some posters here

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-are-blacks-better-off-as-slaves

Bundy made some racially charged comments about government assistance in his daily news conference Saturday, according to a New York Times story published Wednesday.

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” the rancher began as he described a "government house" in Las Vegas where he recalled that all the people who sat outside seemed to "have nothing to do."

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he said, as quoted by the Times. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

[Robert Goren]

I like to say I am surprised by Bundy's remarks, but I am not. It will be interesting see how many of Bundy's supporters drop him now that he has show his true colors racist colors. Hopefully everybody.

[DJofSD]

Well, if they do abandon him, they're nothing but closet liberals that put politics before principle.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sounds a lot like some posters hereHave you completely lost your objective mind?

Sounds a lot like WHO here? Name names.

[davew]

I can't wait to hear or see this news conderence, it should be all over the internet soon.

I wonder if he was mocking Sharpton, Holder, Obama for their racist rants, or if he actually said and meant what is alledged.

[Hank]

Well, if they do abandon him, they're nothing but closet liberals that put politics before principle.

Surely that's not what you meant to say.Because to break with a Racist or a "whatever" violates your moral code would actually be an example OF a principled
position.Where as politics is simply an agreement [or not] about the best way to govern a society.

[JustRalph]

He's being called an out of touch idiot on conservative radio here in Dallas.

I heard an interview today with a guy who says he has a BLM leased property 35 miles from Bundy. He says he's paid up but is arguing about the amount because BLM is supposed to mend fences and maintain water flow etc. they haven't done any work on the property since the 90s. He has to do it. So he wants a credit. He makes a good point

I am still looking for the piece I read on the promise not to charge certain families. My history gets cleared, so I can't find it that way.

[davew]

He's being called an out of touch idiot on conservative radio here in Dallas.

I heard an interview today with a guy who says he has a BLM leased property 35 miles from Bundy. He says he's paid up but is arguing about the amount because BLM is supposed to mend fences and maintain water flow etc. they haven't done any work on the property since the 90s. He has to do it. So he wants a credit. He makes a good point

I am still looking for the piece I read on the promise not to charge certain families. My history gets cleared, so I can't find it that way.

I think it says something like when the BLM was formed, current people with cattle were allowed to range them. 25 years later when the BLM decided they need to charge an administration fee, original range users were 'grandfathered' in without requiring fee.

[JustRalph]

I think it says something like when the BLM was formed, current people with cattle were allowed to range them. 25 years later when the BLM decided they need to charge an administration fee, original range users were 'grandfathered' in without requiring fee.

Thats exactly what it said in so many words. It also said that Bundy family members had stopped using the range for a period of time, and the BLM considers that the end of their "free use" period. But the way I read it, as long as Bundy family members were using it.......it should apply.

Btw, it also said that Bundy had lost this argument in court a long time back

I just don't think swat teams for sagebrush (which is all the cattle are eating) is a look the government wants to project. Not to mention the killing of cattle by the BLM Rangers. Btw, who the hell are the BLM Rangers?

[Robert Goren]

The government changes the rules all the time. Get over it. Other poker players and me did not take to armed insurrection when Bush and the GOP congress outlawed online poker. On second thought, maybe we should have.

[Tom]

The government changes the rules all the time. Get over it. Other poker players and me did not take to armed insurrection when Bush and the GOP congress outlawed online poker. On second thought, maybe we should have.
The BLM Gestapo drew first. The response they got was appropriate if inadequate.

[elysiantraveller]

The BLM Gestapo drew first. The response they got was appropriate if inadequate.

No... they didn't. They were a response to armed militia arriving.

Bundy's racial comments as of late certainly don't reinforce my opinions the guy is a POS. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

A man's beliefs do not diminish his rights.

[elysiantraveller]

No they don't or obviously the Tea Party's decision to support them.

Rape babies, racism, attacking law breakers, supporting those breaking the law, refusing to recognize the United States, doing photo-ops carrying the American flag, blaming free-loaders, praising free-loaders, witchcraft, pro-christian agenda...

The conundrum that is the TP! YAHOO!!!

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/dr-strangelove-still-580.jpg

"I don't care what it is as long as its anti-Obama"

- The TP

[Robert Goren]

A man's beliefs do not diminish his rights. You are absolutely correct, they don't.

[hcap]

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/24/cliven_bundy_claims_he_never_said_black_people_wer e_better_off_picking_cotton_heres_video_that_prove s_hes_lying/

Racist Video on page

http://media.salon.com/2014/04/cliven_bundy-620x412.jpg

[hcap]

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/watch-stephen-colbert-sings-ballad-cliven-bundy

The 'Ballad of Cliven Bundy' :lol: :lol:

[TJDave]

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/24/cliven_bundy_claims_he_never_said_black_people_wer e_better_off_picking_cotton_heres_video_that_prove s_hes_lying/

Racist Video on page


Cliven doesn't want to pay the government for grazing cattle or people for their labor.

At least he's consistent.

[elysiantraveller]

:lol: :lol:

Colbert Killing It! Going platinum maybe?... (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5213456?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics)

[Hank]

A really sad and pathetic display of ignorance and racism.And the militia tough guys admitting that they hid behind their women.Ignorant racist and cowardly to boot. And the cowardly tacit approval by the RIGHT is even more pitiful because some of them are not racist like this clown but they are to weak to stand up like men for what they know is right.SAD. :ThmbDown:

[horses4courses]

I'd like to see that good ole boy on a cattle run....through Compton, or south Chicago.

[Tom]

A really sad and pathetic display of ignorance and racism.And the militia tough guys admitting that they hid behind their women.Ignorant racist and cowardly to boot. And the cowardly tacit approval by the RIGHT is even more pitiful because some of them are not racist like this clown but they are to weak to stand up like men for what they know is right.SAD. :ThmbDown:

Ah yes, the obligatory race card once again. Funny how that gets worked into so many situations where it is not relevant. It gets used so much it almost becomes knee-jerk.

Pretty feeble argument most times, especially here. But if you think this about racism against prairie turtles, you are way off base.

[Robert Goren]

The Race card is in play here because Bundy put it in play.

[GaryG]

The Race Card has absolutely nothing to do with the cattle situation. The man is not running for political office and this is still a country that allows freedom of expression. That is, as long as the politically correct and proper views are expressed. Liberals villify those who oppose abortion and the extension of the Nanny State as well.

[DJofSD]

What I don't understand is why we are suppose to celebrate diversity but yet it is not possible to hold an opposing or unpopular position. Oh, the intolerance of it all.

[hcap]

"Oh, the intolerance of it all"

No the, the intolerance of it of Clive

[FantasticDan]

Yes, let us all celebrate diversity by discussing how we think "the negro" would be better still being a slave.. I bet PA will love it! He ain't gonna stifle no freedom o' expression! :ThmbUp: :lol:

[Tom]

What Gary said.
You two clowns know his personal opinions have nothing to do with this at all.
In spite of the impressions you give here, neither of your are dummies.

[elysiantraveller]

Ah yes, the obligatory race card once again. Funny how that gets worked into so many situations where it is not relevant. It gets used so much it almost becomes knee-jerk.

Pretty feeble argument most times, especially here. But if you think this about racism against prairie turtles, you are way off base.
Kinda like the knee-jerk liberal card to a guy breaking the law. Funny how the fact this guy thinks slavery are a viable option for the negro and getting women shot ovver grazing fees has no relevance but illegal immigration does.

[elysiantraveller]

What Gary said.
You two clowns know his personal opinions have nothing to do with this at all.
In spite of the impressions you give here, neither of your are dummies.
Neither does you or Gary's anti-liberal agenda but yet its the only thing you have left to continue being a part of the conversation.

[JustRalph]

Being a jerk isn't against the law. He can think whatever he wants.

It doesn't mean he should be tolerated though. He's a dumbass. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of the BLM. Now we know that both sides are assholes :lol:

[fast4522]

If any your immediate family was Not born stupid but decided to live life stupid or lazy, you support them. Tom is on target hitting the X-ring having an anti liberal agenda because it is pro American. Spending into oblivion, the future taxes that our kids and grand kids will have to repay is a degenerate low life mindset that is anti American. It has nothing to do with cattle or this thread, but never expect anyone with self respect to fold to your way of thought. November might be a fun time.

[Tom]

Neither does you or Gary's anti-liberal agenda but yet its the only thing you have left to continue being a part of the conversation.
You mean the conversation that sailed over your head days ago?

[Tom]

Yes, let us all celebrate diversity by discussing how we think "the negro" would be better still being a slave.. I bet PA will love it! He ain't gonna stifle no freedom o' expression! :ThmbUp: :lol:

So Danny, if the guy were a true blue anti-border, pro affirmative action democrat, would his actions then be justified?

[elysiantraveller]

You mean the conversation that sailed over your head days ago?
What conversation?

It makes sense you would support Bundy though. .. much like guilty by association in yourmcase its stupidity,.

[elysiantraveller]

So Danny, if the guy were a true blue anti-border, pro affirmative action democrat, would his actions then be justified?
No.

And though I can't speak for him I have a hunch Dan isn't stupid enough to feel the need to politicize everything that crosses the news. In the real world not everything right vs. left.

Don't forget you are siding with a bigoted, lawbreaking, tax evading, cheapskate who feels that the lives of women are worth less than his grazing fees.

[Tom]

And though I can't speak for him....

Then don't. I don't are what you have to say about it.
I got enough of your BS over the Japan nuke accident.
I asked Dan...not you.

Another one over your head.
You got a stool at home?
Maybe you could keep up is you stood on one! :lol:

[FantasticDan]

No.

And though I can't speak for him I have a hunch Dan isn't stupid enough to feel the need to politicize everything that crosses the news. In the real world not everything right vs. left.

Don't forget you are siding with a bigoted, lawbreaking, tax evading, cheapskate who feels that the lives of women are worth less than his grazing fees.

Dan approves. :ThmbUp: Feel free to answer ridiculous questions posed to me anytime :cool:

[Tom]

So Dan, if his personal beliefs do not change the situation, why bring them up?
You make it sound like his beliefs matter, when they do not. What was it, you had a few :lol: left over and it was late?

[Robert Goren]

The publicity of his personal beliefs show what kind of man you are either supporting or not. A few people who might have supported him in is battle with the federal government do want to associated with his racist comments. A lot people feel like my dad when he said " A dog that runs with a pack of wolves runs the risks of being mistaken for a wolf." You go around supporting racists no matter what their cause is, you run the risk of being mistaken for a racist. Not saying that is fair, just stating that is the reality of the situation.

[classhandicapper]

I don't care what anyone says. This is entirely about a government running amok trying to slowly drive ranchers, loggers, and other private people off public lands by using a rigged game.

I'm all for public parks, wildlife conversation, fees for the use of public lands etc...

I'm not for unbalanced efforts to accumulate land, to drive private people that have been using public land for decades off it, for destroying private businesses, or for the use of armed teams to enforce their laws. That's been the bottom line.

Laws are laws, but that doesn't make all of them right, just or fair. I'd just as soon see someone with courage fight over this than everyone just roll over and allow the government to control and own an ever increasing amount of state land.

I also couldn't give a rats ass what his views are on race or anything else. That has nothing to do with these land issues. That's just an effort to divert attention away from the real issue. It's a scumbag political tactic being used by scumbags.

[DJofSD]

The publicity of his personal beliefs show what kind of man you are either supporting or not. A few people who might have supported him in is battle with the federal government do want to associated with his racist comments. A lot people feel like my dad when he said " A dog that runs with a pack of wolves runs the risks of being mistaken for a wolf." You go around supporting racists no matter what their cause is, you run the risk of being mistaken for a racist. Not saying that is fair, just stating that is the reality of the situation.
So, I should be ruled by my fears and abandon whatever principles I might have.

Freedom is not free and if the cost is being misunderstood, or worse, so be it.

[Tom]

You go around supporting racists no matter what their cause is, you run the risk of being mistaken for a racist. Not saying that is fair, just stating that is the reality of the situation.

Many of the founding Fathers were against slavery, but some owned slaves and supported the institution of slavery.

Guess you would have rooted for King George.
Oh, wait, he supported slavery, too.

Now what?

[hcap]

Many of the founding Fathers were against slavery, but some owned slaves and supported the institution of slavery.

Guess you would have rooted for King George.
Oh, wait, he supported slavery, too.

Now what?Maybe you should get the opinion of slaves, or those that were or those that might be?

[johnhannibalsmith]

The publicity of his personal beliefs show what kind of man you are either supporting or not. A few people who might have supported him in is battle with the federal government do want to associated with his racist comments. A lot people feel like my dad when he said " A dog that runs with a pack of wolves runs the risks of being mistaken for a wolf." You go around supporting racists no matter what their cause is, you run the risk of being mistaken for a racist. Not saying that is fair, just stating that is the reality of the situation.

But we sure are selective about enforcing it. I'm pretty sure we can dig up some sound bites coming from prominent politicians about the President from his own party and somehow the silly rancher that allegedly can't be taken seriously gets the attention.

[GaryG]

These days being mistaken for a racist is on a par with being mistaken for Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Tom]

Maybe you should get the opinion of slaves, or those that were or those that might be?

Not relevant to this discussion.
Try to keep up.

[Robert Goren]

But we sure are selective about enforcing it. I'm pretty sure we can dig up some sound bites coming from prominent politicians about the President from his own party and somehow the silly rancher that allegedly can't be taken seriously gets the attention.A long term armed standoff with the federal government is news. The views of the person standing against the government are going to be aired whether his supporters like it or not.
I have not noticed any shortage of silly sound bites from the president's supporters on the TV lately or ever with this president. His enemies have been doing a good job of making sure they come to light.

[elysiantraveller]

I don't care what anyone says. This is entirely about a government running amok trying to slowly drive ranchers, loggers, and other private people off public lands by using a rigged game.

I'm all for public parks, wildlife conversation, fees for the use of public lands etc...

I'm not for unbalanced efforts to accumulate land, to drive private people that have been using public land for decades off it, for destroying private businesses, or for the use of armed teams to enforce their laws. That's been the bottom line.

Laws are laws, but that doesn't make all of them right, just or fair. I'd just as soon see someone with courage fight over this than everyone just roll over and allow the government to control and own an ever increasing amount of state land.
So let me get this straight... This should be left to the ccourts until it was left to the courts so now its just a unfair law that happens to have been on the books for over 20 years?... As far as running people off I'll repeat a $1.35 per head the argument of driving people out of business doesn't make sense economically.

I'm all for public parks, wildlife conversation, fees for the use of public lands etc...

Apparently you aren't. Especially since this guy can graze 15 head and their calves for a month for the same price I pay for one night in Yellowstone. Those evil feds with their egregious fees... :rolleyes:

[classhandicapper]

So let me get this straight... This should be left to the ccourts until it was left to the courts so now its just a unfair law that happens to have been on the books for over 20 years?... As far as running people off I'll repeat a $1.35 per head the argument of driving people out of business doesn't make sense economically.



Apparently you aren't. Especially since this guy can graze 15 head and their calves for a month for the same price I pay for one night in Yellowstone. Those evil feds with their egregious fees... :rolleyes:

We covered this ground several times already.

1. I haven't said too much about the courts deciding this other than accepting the fact that the government would win in the courts. From the start I've thought the entire legal process was rigged to accomplish a political goal. That's why I am against all this. It's all a bullshit pretense to drive people off the land and use it for corrupt and political purposes.

It you don't agree with that perspective, that's fine. Then we won't agree on this. But I am interested in intrinsically right and moral outcomes and always have been. Not all laws are moral, fair, just etc...

2. If it made sense to remain in business after being forced to reduce your heard significantly and pay the fees then he wouldn't be the last one in the area still in business. The others already threw in the towel. And we've seen similar outcomes elsewhere. At a certain point, even if you are profitable, it makes no sense to continue. That's why they go out of business. If they can't make money, then the decision is even easier. THAT's the goal of the government.

3. I am in fact an animal lover and think it's critical to consider forests, animals, and even recreational uses of these lands. If anything, I am on the left when it comes to animals and conservation. But not to the extreme of some of the environmentalists who I think drive some of this stuff without due consideration for anything or anyone else.

4. I am certainly not on Harry Reid's side. I think he's an out and out scumbag. In a just and fair world he would probably be in jail. I don't care that he probably used "legal" means to accumulate his wealth when the rules and laws are unfair, unjust, corrupt etc.... A scumbag is a scumbag.

5. I am against using armed people to try to enforce these court rulings etc.... I think there were better ways to settle this and it should have started with fairness, justness etc... a long time ago and not with corruption, politics, and force now.

I really don't even want to discuss this anymore.

I already know our government and many of its institutions are corrupt, incompetent, and generally the enemy of many Americans that are just trying to work, make ends meet, save for the future etc... in a fair and just way. This case is just a minor annoyance in my life. I'd way rather discuss dismantling the Federal Reserve, reforming the banking and monetary system, and crushing the unholy relationship between Wall St and Washington. That's where the big criminal activity is occurring.

[hcap]

Not relevant to this discussion.
Try to keep up.That's what you babble. Are you saying the institution of slavery is not relevant to past, current, or future slaves? Only to their owners and masters?

Please try and keep up. :eek:

[Tom]

That's what you babble. Are you saying the institution of slavery is not relevant to past, current, or future slaves? Only to their owners and masters?

Try to follow along.
We are not talking about slavery.
We are not talking what the slaves thought about anything.
We are talking about Goren and his comments about what people think and if you should or should not support them because of it.

[hcap]

Try to follow along.
We are not talking about slavery.
We are not talking what the slaves thought about anything.
We are talking about Goren and his comments about what people think and if you should or should not support them because of it.Of course ever since Bundy described Negroes we have been talking about his dumbass comments.

"They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom."

Try and keep up :sleeping: :sleeping:

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, let us all celebrate diversity by discussing how we think "the negro" would be better still being a slave.. I bet PA will love it! He ain't gonna stifle no freedom o' expression! :ThmbUp: :lol:What?

[Tom]

Of course ever since Bundy described Negroes we have been talking about his dumbass comments.

Because that is you liberals know how to do.
His comments certainly are dumb-ass - no one is arguing that.
I would not vote for him.

But his comments as a private citizen have nothing at all to do with this situation. You guys just knee-jerk flip the race card every hand.

[elysiantraveller]

Because that is you liberals know how to do.
His comments certainly are dumb-ass - no one is arguing that.
I would not vote for him.

But his comments as a private citizen have nothing at all to do with this situation. You guys just knee-jerk flip the race card every hand.
Most of what you say is true liberals do love the race card but in this situation I don't really think you can say they flipped it... Bundy kinda dealt it out.

[Tom]

He said it, but they are trying to make it part of all this.
It is not.

If he were a card-caring tree hugging liberal, they would not condone his action due his beliefs, so they cannot use beliefs contrary to their own as a reason to oppose him.

Mutually exclusive events.

[Robert Goren]

He said it, but they are trying to make it part of all this.
It is not.

If he were a card-caring tree hugging liberal, they would not condone his action due his beliefs, so they cannot use beliefs contrary to their own as a reason to oppose him.

Mutually exclusive events.But the conservatives would.

[Tom]

But the conservatives would.
For the second time today.....BS.

[GaryG]

The cows were not potential democrat voters?

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/q71/s480x480/1661135_719791398076348_1003619077111727540_n.jpg

[Mike at A+]

Does anyone else find it odd that our federal government would send snipers into "Middleofnowhere", Nevada because some rancher's cows were "illegally grazing" on government land while not so long ago they tolerated "Occupy Wall Street" setting fires, trespassing, terrorizing children walking to school, defecating in public, breaking windows, looting, raping, disturbing the peace and blocking traffic? Now listen closely, here's the reason. Most of the Occupy Wall Street lawbreaking was done in jurisdictions controlled by Democrats. They had the protection of the unions and the blessing of Obama. Their gripe was that those evil one percenters were realizing the American Dream as a result of excelling academically, developing a work ethic and by putting in the extra hours necessary to rise above those who didn't want to play by those same rules. They became wealthy and Democrats don't like that. The only wealthy people Democrats like are
their Hollywood heroes, sports figures, recording artists, union bosses, left wing media and other rich folks who make large political contributions to the DNC.

[davew]

I heard his grazing permit was for 150 head of cattle when he was legal. The number actually kept with access to the federal land has drifted up towards 750 head on 1200 acres. Not sure anymore, disinformation is confusing.

[elysiantraveller]

Does anyone else find it odd that our federal government would send snipers into "Middleofnowhere", Nevada because some rancher's cows were "illegally grazing" on government land.

That's completely false. They sent government snipers because these people showed up.
http://freedomoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/West-Mountain-Rangers-member.jpg

[TJDave]

I heard his grazing permit was for 150 head of cattle when he was legal. The number actually kept with access to the federal land has drifted up towards 750 head on 1200 acres. Not sure anymore, disinformation is confusing.


This explains it better than most:


http://thesouthwestjournal.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/free-grazing-law-breaking-cliven-bundys-stand-against-the-government/

[JustRalph]

Does anyone else find it odd that our federal government would send snipers into "Middleofnowhere", Nevada because some rancher's cows were "illegally grazing" on government land while not so long ago they tolerated "Occupy Wall Street" setting fires, trespassing, terrorizing children walking to school, defecating in public, breaking windows, looting, raping, disturbing the peace and blocking traffic? Now listen closely, here's the reason. Most of the Occupy Wall Street lawbreaking was done in jurisdictions controlled by Democrats. They had the protection of the unions and the blessing of Obama. Their gripe was that those evil one percenters were realizing the American Dream as a result of excelling academically, developing a work ethic and by putting in the extra hours necessary to rise above those who didn't want to play by those same rules. They became wealthy and Democrats don't like that. The only wealthy people Democrats like are
their Hollywood heroes, sports figures, recording artists, union bosses, left wing media and other rich folks who make large political contributions to the DNC.

Great post :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/04/14/remember-cliven-bundy-yep-hes-still-winning/

Victory party?