View Full Version : Is anyone else tired of the same old BS at Santa Anita?
Al Gobbi
04-06-2014, 01:02 PM
same old speed bias racetrack where half the field has no shot to win and very boring to watch.
They know how to do a fair racetrack (see the Saturday BC card after being forced to by the BC) but are too stubborn or don't care about integrity.
How can we change this?
PaceAdvantage
04-06-2014, 01:08 PM
Bet the speed?
Stillriledup
04-06-2014, 04:18 PM
They need to realize that with a deeper and fair track, more horses can win and when more horses can win, there is more chance of carryovers and the more carryovers you get, the more money you make.
I know they want to cater to certain horsemen who cry about a deep surface, but the deeper surface makes it safer for horses (more cushion) and of course, in turn, that makes it safer for the riders and a by product of this is you make more money in the long run and the handicappers have a more fair product to play.
greengorilla
04-06-2014, 10:28 PM
Speed Bias tracks in general increases betting handle. Bigger players step up there bets when there is a track bias, not to mention there golden child california chrome would not benefit from a fair biased track.
Stillriledup
04-06-2014, 11:54 PM
Speed Bias tracks in general increases betting handle. Bigger players step up there bets when there is a track bias, not to mention there golden child california chrome would not benefit from a fair biased track.
I know personally when i see a strong speed bias, my wagers go way down in size because i can't trust that any horse i like who's a closer will be able to get there.
PaceAdvantage
04-07-2014, 12:23 AM
You shouldn't be liking any closers on a strongly speed-biased track.
maclr11
04-07-2014, 01:43 AM
Is it that much different than gulfstream?
East calls west biased
West calls east biased
They probably both are but isn't all dirt racing? There's days in Chicago, New Orleans, New York, turfway, etc etc that are speed biased too.
Just a piece of the game.
goatchaser
04-07-2014, 01:56 AM
Start betting the Aqueduct inner dirt course. No Bias there.
Stillriledup
04-07-2014, 03:42 AM
You shouldn't be liking any closers on a strongly speed-biased track.
Here's what i mean.
If a horse catches my eye on videotape or a horse who caught my eye when he last ran and a horse who i want to "bet next time" might show up on a track that will compromise his style. BUT, you have to be careful with this because you can't just blindly bet against horses you are waiting to bet just because you think the track might beat them.
Sometimes they'll win anyway...so, i'd rather just be able to bet horses i have good notes on instead of having to worry that some bias is going to beat me.
Thebigguy
04-07-2014, 04:15 AM
same old speed bias racetrack where half the field has no shot to win and very boring to watch.
They know how to do a fair racetrack (see the Saturday BC card after being forced to by the BC) but are too stubborn or don't care about integrity.
How can we change this?
Nothing better then just flat out making stuff up. Being forced to by the BC?? Thats rich.
Stillriledup
04-07-2014, 04:27 AM
Nothing better then just flat out making stuff up. Being forced to by the BC?? Thats rich.
Following Friday’s races, the Twittersphere was abuzz with comments and pictures about the bias and the heavy maintenance to correct the situation. According to a representative from the Horseplayers Association of North America, Breeders’ Cup officials weren’t pleased and asked Santa Anita to put on a full court press to slow down the stinging main track for Saturday’s races.
Entire Article:
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/John-Pricci/comments/11052013-track-bias-unfair-to-horses-horsemen-and-bettors-alike/
fmolf
04-07-2014, 08:02 PM
just bet the races from keeneland,woodbine and any other track with old torn up rugs, tires and wax candles that the horses run on.That stuff makes bad horses better.
Al Gobbi
04-07-2014, 08:57 PM
just ran through the charts at Santa Anita for the past two weeks and found that during live racing twelve horses during the past eight days of racing either pulled up, were eased or broke down.
Stillriledup
04-07-2014, 09:25 PM
just ran through the charts at Santa Anita for the past two weeks and found that during live racing twelve horses during the past eight days of racing either pulled up, were eased or broke down.
Maybe they need to make the surface harder and more speed favoring, so the trainers won't complain.
pandy
04-07-2014, 11:07 PM
same old speed bias racetrack where half the field has no shot to win and very boring to watch.
They know how to do a fair racetrack (see the Saturday BC card after being forced to by the BC) but are too stubborn or don't care about integrity.
How can we change this?
I don't know what is wrong with management at Santa Anita. The track surface is a joke. You're always going to get people that say, hey just bet the speed, but this is not just a betting market, it is also a sport and speed biased racing sucks, it's boring. The irony is, they have so many 5 or 6 horse fields then when they finally get a decent size field, half of the horses have no chance because they're not speed horses.
Chachie
04-07-2014, 11:15 PM
You shouldn't be liking any closers on a strongly speed-biased track.
Thats an interesting little nugget for me to note. :ThmbUp:
Stillriledup
04-07-2014, 11:18 PM
I don't know what is wrong with management at Santa Anita. The track surface is a joke. You're always going to get people that say, hey just bet the speed, but this is not just a betting market, it is also a sport and speed biased racing sucks, it's boring. The irony is, they have so many 5 or 6 horse fields then when they finally get a decent size field, half of the horses have no chance because they're not speed horses.
They just refuse to put "cushion" on the tracks, the superintendent and the owner of the track cater to a few vocal "celebrity" trainers who want the track rock hard for some reason. That can't be good for the health of the horses. If you watch races at other dirt tracks like Parx, Laurel, Mountaineer, CT, Penn National, etc you see closers win all the time there. If you duel hard at those places, you're not winning.....if you go 44 flat to the half at Santa Anita, you might have a chance....go 44 at some of these eastern dirt tracks and you won't be there at the end, unless you're a great horse.
Santa Anita would be amazing if they had a real dirt surface, deep cushion and they made it really hard for a horse to win in sub 112.....now, you have cheapies going 44 and 109 like its nothing. I just watched a replay of a horse named Rossi Reserve who went 21.55 and 44.36 on the lead in a 6 furlong race and just crushed, she came home in 25.66 and nobody got near her.
As a handicapper, if you bet against a horse like that, and you see 44.36 you're supposed to think "geez, that's fast, maybe my closer can reel her in" but nothing even close to that happens.
goatchaser
04-08-2014, 12:30 AM
So now everyone is worried about track conditions rather than trying to figure out how to win money? I just call that Laziness. Complain about the track because your not winning and because the style you want your horse win a certain style. Then complain about it to make excuses. That's the vibe I'm getting here.
No one loves a stretch runner better than me. It's a great Visual. Especially when you cash a ticket. But if it's speed winning because of the track.. or even maybe because The horse has speed and just better? Sometimes that's just what it is. I sit here and read sometimes all what people write and I wonder....Why are they wasting time complaining about tracks, Track conditions, Horses, Horse conditions, Crooked trainers, Horses breaking down. Why are they not trying to figure out how to beat the system? Jump on what angles are working. Whatever it is to make a buck at this game.
So now everyone is worried about track conditions rather than trying to figure out how to win money? I just call that Laziness. Complain about the track because your not winning and because the style you want your horse win a certain style. Then complain about it to make excuses. That's the vibe I'm getting here.
No one loves a stretch runner better than me. It's a great Visual. Especially when you cash a ticket. But if it's speed winning because of the track.. or even maybe because The horse has speed and just better? Sometimes that's just what it is. I sit here and read sometimes all what people write and I wonder....Why are they wasting time complaining about tracks, Track conditions, Horses, Horse conditions, Crooked trainers, Horses breaking down. Why are they not trying to figure out how to beat the system? Jump on what angles are working. Whatever it is to make a buck at this game.
As a bettor, I personally don't care how the track plays. Biases probably help me more than hurt in the long run. But as a fan, strong biases are bad for the sport.
I don't know which angle the original poster was coming at this from, though "boring to watch" indicates to me he means as a fan. A fan would want to see the best horses win, not the horses that find the best part of the track.
Most people in this game fall into both camps I would guess, bettor and fan. Not everyone of course, but most. Jumping to calling it "laziness" seems like a pretty big leap.
pandy
04-08-2014, 06:27 AM
Exactly, CJ. Betting is one thing, the quality of the product as a sport is another. If they want to kill this sport completely, speed biased races will do it.
Those of you who don't know the history of harness racing in this country, I'll educate you. It is SPEED BIASED races that killed harness racing. When harness racing was big they used wooden sulkies and the one mile distance was a test of endurance. Harness drivers had to try to save something for the finish.
Then in 1977 an engineer named Joe King introduced the "modified sulky," which was the first steel sulky. Right away the fractions and final times quickened sharply and speed started to hold up better. But, they didn't stop there. The new bike opened up a new sulky industry. Every few years someone else came up with a better mousetrap and as each innovative sulky was introduced, the speed held up even better. Back in 2002 the first off set sulky came out, the Harmer bike, which actually put the horse 6 inches closer to the rail (yes, it's a crooked bike). Then a few years ago the UFO came out and that is 10 inches offset.
Now at all half mile and most five eighth tracks, and there are many of these tracks racing, almost all of the races are won by leavers. Very few horses rally to win from off the pace. Because the outside posts have such a handicap, this results in more favorites winning. When the sport was thriving, favorites won 34% of the time. Now at some tracks they win 43%.
Harness racing was once by far the best bet in gambling for a good handicapper, better than thoroughbreds. There were a lot of professional harness gamblers. Not anymore.
So, if a racetrack wants to go out of business and take the sport down with it, all it has to do is have a surface that produces fast fractions and times and favors leavers. It's bad racing and it's bad business.
Seabiscuit@AR
04-08-2014, 08:30 AM
To be fair to Santa Anita, when California and other places put in synthetic/all weather tracks there were many posters on here calling for a return to dirt and "real" racing. Implied in all this were dirt tracks where leaders blazed through the first half mile and kept going to win. Santa Anita management probably think they are giving people what they want in returning to dirt racing and leader biased racing
Speed Bias tracks in general increases betting handle. Bigger players step up there bets when there is a track bias, not to mention there golden child california chrome would not benefit from a fair biased track.
Wish you wouldn't have mentioned it, because it's idiotic. Not only did his race at synthetic Hollywood have nothing to do with any speed bias, but Candy Boy was on his flank during the SA Derby, and he destroyed him when the real racing started.
Gulfstream is far more speed favoring than SA as well. Pay attention.
Robert Goren
04-08-2014, 09:40 AM
To be fair to Santa Anita, when California and other places put in synthetic/all weather tracks there were many posters on here calling for a return to dirt and "real" racing. Implied in all this were dirt tracks where leaders blazed through the first half mile and kept going to win. Santa Anita management probably think they are giving people what they want in returning to dirt racing and leader biased racingAnd they were. Now if they just could something about field size.
It is the same everywhere. Gamblers Anonymous has a special meeting on Wednesday nights for people who kept trying to bet closer at Aqueduct.:rolleyes:
goatchaser
04-08-2014, 11:49 AM
I kind of wish Pace was like Facebook so we all could hit the LIKE symbol on a Persons Post..lol
goatchaser
04-08-2014, 11:55 AM
Curious CJ....What would you call it when people keep complaining about the same thing over and over again, Such as to many speed horses winning and more or less saying.. I'm not turning a profit because of that? Seems they are bent on betting against speed horses instead of trying to figure out which speed horse wins. Which to me means just to lazy. I don't mean it like their lazy in life. Also could mean just to STUBBORN!!
greengorilla
04-08-2014, 12:06 PM
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Wish you wouldn't have mentioned it, because it's idiotic. Not only did his race at synthetic Hollywood have nothing to do with any speed bias, but Candy Boy was on his flank during the SA Derby, and he destroyed him when the real racing started.
Gulfstream is far more speed favoring than SA as well. Pay attention.
I can tell you really no what your talking about? LOL. Open your ears and maybe you'll learn something.. Synthetic tracks are the most speed favoring tracks in the country. My clients wont buy non early speed horses for synthetic tracks. Good luck with your ventures gambling maybe you can text me a picture of your new Ferrari, when CC wins.
Some days, it is like betting on the merry-go-round horses.
But the MGR is a tad bit fairer.
riskman
04-08-2014, 01:22 PM
What tracks that offer dirt sprints are not speed favoring?
Off the top of my head, Golden Gate this meet might favor pressers, but I do not have a DB to confirm.
It appears, speed in dirt sprints is the norm at most tracks as well as many route races. Is this the case or am I biased? :)
Curious CJ....What would you call it when people keep complaining about the same thing over and over again, Such as to many speed horses winning and more or less saying.. I'm not turning a profit because of that? Seems they are bent on betting against speed horses instead of trying to figure out which speed horse wins. Which to me means just to lazy. I don't mean it like their lazy in life. Also could mean just to STUBBORN!!
I just based what I said on his stating "boring to watch". That has nothing to do with betting in my opinion. I don't see how that can turned into "not turning a profit".
Most people lose, won't matter how the racetrack plays.
Synthetic tracks are the most speed favoring tracks in the country.
Santa Anita and Gulfstream are not a synthetic tracks, so by your reasoning they're less speed favoring than Hollywood was and Keeneland, Turfway, and Woodbine are. Post your evidence for this.
taxicab
04-08-2014, 05:34 PM
I can tell you really no what your talking about? LOL. Open your ears and maybe you'll learn something.. Synthetic tracks are the most speed favoring tracks in the country. My clients wont buy non early speed horses for synthetic tracks. Good luck with your ventures gambling maybe you can text me a picture of your new Ferrari, when CC wins.
Speed is at a huge disadvantage on synthetics.
Usually the only time speed holds on synthetics is when it gets cold or some moisture is on the track(sometimes).
Horses off the pace do very well on synthetics.
Stillriledup
04-08-2014, 06:04 PM
I can tell you really no what your talking about? LOL. Open your ears and maybe you'll learn something.. Synthetic tracks are the most speed favoring tracks in the country. My clients wont buy non early speed horses for synthetic tracks. Good luck with your ventures gambling maybe you can text me a picture of your new Ferrari, when CC wins.
GG i can't agree with this, its REALLY hard to wire the field at Golden Gate, i've seen horses there in route races go 52 and 117 while completely unpressured and they fall apart and can't even hit the board. Happens all the time there. Same thing with the Woodbine Poly, horses come from everywhere at that place, no lead is safe no matter how slow the leader went.
pandy
04-08-2014, 06:42 PM
What tracks that offer dirt sprints are not speed favoring?
Off the top of my head, Golden Gate this meet might favor pressers, but I do not have a DB to confirm.
It appears, speed in dirt sprints is the norm at most tracks as well as many route races. Is this the case or am I biased? :)
Generally speaking, for the past 10 years or so, the NYRA tracks have not been speed favoring. Charles Hayward fired the groundskeeper when he took over and said that he wanted fair racetracks. Inner track and Saratoga used to be very speed favoring years ago. Unfortunately, Hayward is out so who knows what will happen but I think the NYRA tracks will remain more balanced, as they have been for many years now.
Parx is certainly not a speed favoring track. Churchill is not a speed favoring track. Other tracks that tend to play fairly, Arlington, Hawthorne, Turfway, Woodbine, Fair Grounds, Tampa Bay, Calder.
Santa Anita is not a typical dirt track. It is more speed favoring than most tracks, similar to the way Keeneland and Saratoga were years ago.
Stillriledup
04-08-2014, 07:34 PM
Generally speaking, for the past 10 years or so, the NYRA tracks have not been speed favoring. Charles Hayward fired the groundskeeper when he took over and said that he wanted fair racetracks. Inner track and Saratoga used to be very speed favoring years ago. Unfortunately, Hayward is out so who knows what will happen but I think the NYRA tracks will remain more balanced, as they have been for many years now.
Parx is certainly not a speed favoring track. Churchill is not a speed favoring track. Other tracks that tend to play fairly, Arlington, Hawthorne, Turfway, Woodbine, Fair Grounds, Tampa Bay, Calder.
Santa Anita is not a typical dirt track. It is more speed favoring than most tracks, similar to the way Keeneland and Saratoga were years ago.
No doubt.
Other fair tracks include Penn Nat and Laurel and another synth track you can close on is PID.
Al Gobbi
04-08-2014, 08:58 PM
I believe that Santa Anita is about 95% sand composition. I'm not a track super but I think it is totally foolish for a track in an area that doesn't get much rain year-round and now runs its winter meet through the end of June to have that much sand composition. Trainers have raved about the new Los Al track which has a deep cushion, loamy type of surface. I know several jockeys have been fans of the surface at Pomona in the past as well.
I know Belmont is primary a sand track but they can get severe rain during the year and Suffolk is too. (In fact I saw several cheap claimers actually go 1:09 and 1:10 last year at SUF.) Suffolk and Santa Anita's surfaces actually look very dry even after about 10 minutes after the water trucks go by whereas a surface with a good amount of loam and clay will hold the water in for a longer period.
Most tracks have a sand/silt/loam/clay mixture of various degrees.
breezing
04-08-2014, 10:07 PM
not sure i believe your 95% sand theory. i had a grain size and sieve analysis done on it a few years ago and it was low 80's (%) for sand, the remainder was silt and clay (can't remember the exact ML and CL percetage and not sure i still have the analysis). if i'm bored i may grab another sample before the meet is up and will let you know the results.
i will also add that the surface appearing dry to you is more related to temperature and our desert climate with very little humidity, toss in a breeze coming off the desert and a silty clay will develop alligator cracks in a very short period of time but will be very moist to moist just below the surface.
affirmedny
04-08-2014, 10:15 PM
Exactly, CJ. Betting is one thing, the quality of the product as a sport is another. If they want to kill this sport completely, speed biased races will do it.
Those of you who don't know the history of harness racing in this country, I'll educate you. It is SPEED BIASED races that killed harness racing. When harness racing was big they used wooden sulkies and the one mile distance was a test of endurance. Harness drivers had to try to save something for the finish.
Then in 1977 an engineer named Joe King introduced the "modified sulky," which was the first steel sulky. Right away the fractions and final times quickened sharply and speed started to hold up better. But, they didn't stop there. The new bike opened up a new sulky industry. Every few years someone else came up with a better mousetrap and as each innovative sulky was introduced, the speed held up even better. Back in 2002 the first off set sulky came out, the Harmer bike, which actually put the horse 6 inches closer to the rail (yes, it's a crooked bike). Then a few years ago the UFO came out and that is 10 inches offset.
Now at all half mile and most five eighth tracks, and there are many of these tracks racing, almost all of the races are won by leavers. Very few horses rally to win from off the pace. Because the outside posts have such a handicap, this results in more favorites winning. When the sport was thriving, favorites won 34% of the time. Now at some tracks they win 43%.
Harness racing was once by far the best bet in gambling for a good handicapper, better than thoroughbreds. There were a lot of professional harness gamblers. Not anymore.
So, if a racetrack wants to go out of business and take the sport down with it, all it has to do is have a surface that produces fast fractions and times and favors leavers. It's bad racing and it's bad business.
What made the Meadowlands great when it first opened was that you could win from last at the top of the stretch. Hasn't been that way for a long time.
riskman
04-09-2014, 12:26 AM
Generally speaking, for the past 10 years or so, the NYRA tracks have not been speed favoring. Charles Hayward fired the groundskeeper when he took over and said that he wanted fair racetracks. Inner track and Saratoga used to be very speed favoring years ago. Unfortunately, Hayward is out so who knows what will happen but I think the NYRA tracks will remain more balanced, as they have been for many years now.
Parx is certainly not a speed favoring track. Churchill is not a speed favoring track. Other tracks that tend to play fairly, Arlington, Hawthorne, Turfway, Woodbine, Fair Grounds, Tampa Bay, Calder.
Santa Anita is not a typical dirt track. It is more speed favoring than most tracks, similar to the way Keeneland and Saratoga were years ago.
The current meet as of April 5th.
Parx 6f -Dirt-91 Races 37% were won wire to wire
Calder 6F-Dirt -261 Races 35% were won wire to wire
Gulfstream 6F Dirt 260 Races 35% were won wire to wire.
Santa Anita 6F Dirt 99 Races 37% were won wire to wire.
If Santa Anita favors E Running style at 37% why is Parx Calder, and Gulf much different with E favoring running style?
By the way, these are Bris track meet bias figures for the current meet for DIRT sprints. Please educate me, and am only interested in dirt tracks. I know the all weather tracks run differently. When I talk about early running horses, I am not limiting to the “front runners” only. I include any horse that will be able to place itself in a striking position relative to the pace that is likely to be set by the actual front runner in today’s race.
The advantages of being in the first flight (or close) in a race, and to be within striking distance at all points of the race into the stretch– are obvious.These are the types I usually bet if they meet other conditions in my capping and wagering.
Perhaps, I am looking at the Bris figures incorrectly.
goatchaser
04-09-2014, 11:40 AM
I believe that Santa Anita is about 95% sand composition. I'm not a track super but I think it is totally foolish for a track in an area that doesn't get much rain year-round and now runs its winter meet through the end of June to have that much sand composition. Trainers have raved about the new Los Al track which has a deep cushion, loamy type of surface. I know several jockeys have been fans of the surface at Pomona in the past as well.
I know Belmont is primary a sand track but they can get severe rain during the year and Suffolk is too. (In fact I saw several cheap claimers actually go 1:09 and 1:10 last year at SUF.) Suffolk and Santa Anita's surfaces actually look very dry even after about 10 minutes after the water trucks go by whereas a surface with a good amount of loam and clay will hold the water in for a longer period.
Most tracks have a sand/silt/loam/clay mixture of various degrees.
California Chrome Trains at Los Alamitos.
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