Keeneland going back to dirt

[cj]

Beginning with 2014 fall meeting.

[Tall One]

Beginning with 2014 fall meeting.



LEXINGTON, Ky. Keeneland announced today that it is converting its main race track from synthetic Polytrack material to a state-of-the-art dirt surface, with a drainage system that will be the first of its kind in North America.

The conversion will take place over the summer, with construction scheduled to begin May 19 and be completed Aug. 15. The track will reopen for training Sept. 1. The Fall Meet begins Oct. 3.

“Keeneland’s mission is to provide the highest level of racing possible, and in order to accomplish that goal going forward, a dirt surface is preferable,” Keeneland President and CEO Bill Thomason said. “This dirt track will be a ‘next-generation’ surface, the most extensively researched and most sophisticated in North America. We believe that with the new materials and research available to us today we can build a world-class dirt track that is as safe as our synthetic surface for horses and riders. Their safety absolutely remains our top priority.”

[elhelmete]

Didn't the same article say they're keeping the existing base/drainage? Just at first blush, I'm not digging that but I'm not an expert.

[FantasticDan]

Look for Sinister Minister to come out of retirement :eek: :p

[cj]

Look at the list of horses that have won Keeneland's big races and then look at what they have done on the bigger stage. That is probably reason #1 why dirt is returning. No more G3 turf races posing as G1s.

[Saratoga_Mike]

KEE will be relevant to KY Derby again

[Saratoga_Mike]

What has happened to KEE's handle since they switched to the synthetic track?

[RacingFan1992]

By a show of hands who is happy about the decision. :jump::ThmbUp: (I sure am.)

[illinoisbred]

Lets hope CDI will deem Arlington worthy of the investment and replace the poly. If not,no one will want to race here next year. And agree CJ..when horses such as Middie and El Gran Estreno win your premiere main track stake,it's time to rethink and remove the stuff.

[JustRalph]

What has happened to KEE's handle since they switched to the synthetic track?

mine went to nothing......... just think........a reason to head back to Lexington and visit :ThmbUp:

[Edward DeVere]

Ken "Kitten's Joy" Ramsey has been placed on suicide watch.

[Leparoux]

What has happened to KEE's handle since they switched to the synthetic track?
This is a good question... has the synth hurt the handle?

Great move. Breeders Cup in 2015 or 2016, mark it down.

[Valuist]

Lets hope CDI will deem Arlington worthy of the investment and replace the poly. If not,no one will want to race here next year. And agree CJ..when horses such as Middie and El Gran Estreno win your premiere main track stake,it's time to rethink and remove the stuff.

Supposedly 7 years is the life for Polytrack and then new Poly has to be brought in....unless you get rid of it, like you and I hope. I'm still upset how Arlington caved in to public pressure and one media outlet (Chicago Tribune) who was on a smear campaign when they had a breakdown problem back in 2006. Arlington management kept talking about "Keeneland does this, and Keeneland does that and we want the same surface." Hopefully they will emulate Keeneland this time. Love their grass course but the main track is a joke and not playable.

[Tom]

Didn't the same article say they're keeping the existing base/drainage? Just at first blush, I'm not digging that but I'm not an expert.

I'm pretty sure that was all new when they went to plasti-crap, so should be in good shape.

[olddaddy]

Arlington probably has the nicest facility in US and one of the best grass courses. Bringing back dirt would be nice but without bringing back stables it really doesnt matter.

[Striker]

They've set all sources handle records the last 2 years for the fall meet.

[Robert Fischer]

At times the keeneland surface (more so than other polytrack surfaces?) has it's own unique biases and seemingly a bit of equalizing randomness at times.

I thought it was interesting to bet, but it took some some crazy kind of spread wagers to hit that I wasn't comfortable using real money with.


Keeneland has some days like this where they have some head-scratchers.

Today would have been a good day to try some .50 trifectas , and .10 supers with wide spreads.


paper bet

.10 superfectas

All except 2,12

with a double key of :10: :8:

cost = $403.20

example
10,8
all except 12,2
all except 12,2
all except 12,2

with 10,8 in each position.

cost = $403.20


cost = $403.20 return = $1954.02

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=6&BorP=P&TID=KEE&CTRY=USA&DT=10/16/2013&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

[Striker]

2013--$142,999,271
2012--$140,931,575
2011--$131,732,478
2010--$120,859,773
2009--$122,525,256
2008--$109,487,796
2007--$133,210,885
2006--$140,456,180
2005--$124,922,163
2004--$125,776,943
2003--approx $126 million

[DJofSD]

Will wonders never cease!

[Tom]

$100,000 of that is everyone to get out on the last race.

[JustRalph]

I think the Jocks have as much to do with the show there as the plastic. Yet they are changing their game based on the surface. At least they were early on. I didn't follow the last two meets

[Mystic]

By a show of hands who is happy about the decision. :jump::ThmbUp: (I sure am.)

:ThmbUp:

[BettinBilly]

mine went to nothing......... just think........a reason to head back to Lexington and visit :ThmbUp:

Agreed. It's on my hit parade now.

[Valuist]

2013--$142,999,271
2012--$140,931,575
2011--$131,732,478
2010--$120,859,773
2009--$122,525,256
2008--$109,487,796
2007--$133,210,885
2006--$140,456,180
2005--$124,922,163
2004--$125,776,943
2003--approx $126 million

So it took 6 years to get back to 2006 levels.

[Stillriledup]

2013--$142,999,271
2012--$140,931,575
2011--$131,732,478
2010--$120,859,773
2009--$122,525,256
2008--$109,487,796
2007--$133,210,885
2006--$140,456,180
2005--$124,922,163
2004--$125,776,943
2003--approx $126 million

They threw millions away that they could never get back with their little "Experiment". Hopefully they saved a few extra lives of some 5k claimers to have made it worth their while.

[BIG49010]

Growth of 5% per year would have put them over $200,000,000, I guess it has been an expensive experiment.

Purses reflect the fact, they used to some of the best, now there just o.k. I can see why trainers are shipping to Belmont.

[Leparoux]

So it took 6 years to get back to 2006 levels.
That is a pretty unfair way to look at it. 2006 was an outlier compared to the two previous years. Hard to say synth really hurt the handle just by looking at those numbers.

[ronsmac]

This is great news, especially with Churchill running their Sept. meet. This will give Kentucky about 8 months straight of dirt racing.

[Stillriledup]

This is great news, especially with Churchill running their Sept. meet. This will give Kentucky about 8 months straight of dirt racing.

This is an underrated point you're making.....as not only does Keeneland lose money due to bettors waiting for established form, but other tracks lose money too because bettors are leery of betting races with 'plastic to dirt' form on some of the runners. Takes the 'guesswork' out of some part of the capping process and that in turn, creates bigger handle for everyone.

Same thing will happen next year at Del Mar when they go back to dirt, bettors can wade in with both fists betting the established SA form when it comes to DMR in July...but this year? What do you do? Buncha guesswork.

[therussmeister]

Growth of 5% per year would have put them over $200,000,000, I guess it has been an expensive experiment.

Purses reflect the fact, they used to some of the best, now there just o.k. I can see why trainers are shipping to Belmont.
Which dirt tracks grew their handle 5% per year since 2006?

[Leparoux]

Growth of 5% per year would have put them over $200,000,000, I guess it has been an expensive experiment.

Purses reflect the fact, they used to some of the best, now there just o.k. I can see why trainers are shipping to Belmont.
6 straight years of HANA #1 track ranking... you make it sound like Keeneland has turned into Turfway Park.

[Tom]

I have bet 1,000 times a many races at TP than KEE and that will never change, no what they put down for a surface. TP is the best track in Kentucky. No, it is the only track.

[BIG49010]

6 straight years of HANA #1 track ranking... you make it sound like Keeneland has turned into Turfway Park. Hana #1 ranking has little to do with race meetings players want to bet, and I think most of your bigger players gravitate to meetings that are a little more predictable than those run on poly. So goes the poly, enough said.

[Leparoux]

^Welp, cool.

[Track Collector]

I thought the following excerpt from the article was telling:

Officials have learned from research that proper maintenance of the surface is just as important as the selection of materials from a safety and consistency perspective.

Bingo!

If track owners had spent as much time and money doing so with their existing dirt tracks, we would have only seen one or two tracks, due to their unique situations, go the way of synthetics.

Count me among those who are glad to hear of this decision.

[horses4courses]

Years of bettors moaning about the carpet - and, now......
Once the dirt comes back, I'll be waiting to hear the inevitable
"g'damn rail at Keeneland - you can't beat the inside speed"

Some things never change in this game.... ;)

[cnollfan]

Hopefully they will install a dirt track that isn't as irrelevant as Keeneland's had become prior to the switch to Polytrack. 9-1 on Sinister Minister in the Kentucky Derby was an underlay for the ages.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I have bet 1,000 times a many races at TP than KEE and that will never change, no what they put down for a surface. TP is the best track in Kentucky. No, it is the only track.

You could be more wrong, but I don't know how.

Keeneland is tough but the venue is awesome, Churchill is, well CD, Turfway without turf should be called Muleway, but......

Ellis Park is the best track in the state for betting.

[Stillriledup]

I thought the following excerpt from the article was telling:

Officials have learned from research that proper maintenance of the surface is just as important as the selection of materials from a safety and consistency perspective.

Bingo!

If track owners had spent as much time and money doing so with their existing dirt tracks, we would have only seen one or two tracks, due to their unique situations, go the way of synthetics.

Count me among those who are glad to hear of this decision.

If owners were vigilant and were very strict on which horses they let past the vet (even at the detriment of short fields and lost revenue because of less betting interests) they wouldnt have had to blame the dirt tracks and spend all that money on a surface that bettors didnt want.

[BMustang]

Thank God!!! I'll bet Ted Bassett is sleeping better tonight. He never could justify poly expect that Keeneland was selling it. Poly was never "Racing as it was meant to be."

The Bluegrass Stakes has become inconsequential as a derby prep since polys inception, and the day to day races have become the wheel of fortune. In it's truest form, it was nothing but grey turf.

The crowds flock to Keenland for it's ambiance and attraction as a tourist destination. The real horseplayers have stayed away from the windows en masse.

I am completely thrilled that the Keeneland management has come to realize that poly has been a disaster and am happy that they have taken steps to rectify it.

[BMustang]

6 straight years of HANA #1 track ranking... you make it sound like Keeneland has turned into Turfway Park.

Turfway Park at least has a reason to use it. It allows them (most of the time) to race through the winter months. Keeneland was simply prostituting themselves because they were owners and distributors of the stuff.

[Silver florin]

What has happened to KEE's handle since they switched to the synthetic track?

Mine just a few turf races since Polycrap.

[Silver florin]

They've set all sources handle records the last 2 years for the fall meet.

Imagine the handle if they were racing on dirt.

[Silver florin]

That is a pretty unfair way to look at it. 2006 was an outlier compared to the two previous years. Hard to say synth really hurt the handle just by looking at those numbers.

Are you saying Polycrap didn't hurt the handle?

[jahura2]

Just in time for my retirement years!

[classhandicapper]

That is a pretty unfair way to look at it. 2006 was an outlier compared to the two previous years. Hard to say synth really hurt the handle just by looking at those numbers.

I agree. The handle numbers are not very useful unless you can control for the general trends in racing and the 2008 financial crisis and deep recession (along with other factors that might be specific to racing there).

[Leparoux]

Are you saying Polycrap didn't hurt the handle?
Based on the evidence presented, yep.

[Valuist]

That is a pretty unfair way to look at it. 2006 was an outlier compared to the two previous years. Hard to say synth really hurt the handle just by looking at those numbers.

Not sure why you'd say that. 2006 was bigger than '05 and '04 but not by THAT much. And there probably was a curiousity factor the first year they put Polytrack in.

[Leparoux]

Not sure why you'd say that. 2006 was bigger than '05 and '04 but not by THAT much. And there probably was a curiousity factor the first year they put Polytrack in.
05 to 06 was by far the biggest jump on that chart.

08 handle is WAY lower than any other listed but you all want to attribute that to the poly as opposed to the economy crashing :D

[rastajenk]

It has to be mentioned, again, that when Poly was introduced, pundits (and I mean Saint Andy Beyer, whom I hold in high regard) worried that the lack of a track bias would introduce a lifetime supply of formful racing and relegate the TB's to the lackluster nature of harness racing. Soon after, it became an unpredictable crapshoot that couldn't be bet. That's some kind of whiplash. :p

[affirmedny]

Not sure why you'd say that. 2006 was bigger than '05 and '04 but not by THAT much. And there probably was a curiousity factor the first year they put Polytrack in.

my recollection is they only ran on polytrack in the fall of 2006 and the spring meet was on dirt. Anybody know for sure?

[rastajenk]

In 2006 Sinister Minister won the Blue Grass; that was definitely dirt. In 2007, Dominican won the first poly Blue Grass in painfully slow fractions. So it had to be the fall meet.