"Trainerspeak" on the record

[Grits]

http://www.raceday360.com/2014/03/31/on-the-record-trainers-speak-candidly-about-peta-investigation/

My only thought regarding some of what is stated here, and everywhere else, is that I wish we all were as clueless about the care of horses as so many seem to believe. Many of us have no problem, whatsoever, understanding why bar shoes, glue-on shoes, etc, may be needed. Many of us are aware of the need to scope a horse, why its done. Why would anyone find either abusive? I believe these measures fall under "preventive maintenance".

If I don't ever hear the term, "taken out of context" again, it will be too soon. Trainers ignore quite a lot that's in the video--such as the state of Nehro's feet, unnecessary thyroid med, etc.

One can go on ad nauseum, but right now the video--in whatever context you choose--is what it is. DEAL WITH IT. And get on with how in the hell to fix it!

[Tom]

It is time to put everything "in context."
Every point in the video, not just the ones easily dismissed.

[Delawaretrainer]

http://www.raceday360.com/2014/03/31/on-the-record-trainers-speak-candidly-about-peta-investigation/

My only thought regarding some of what is stated here, and everywhere else, is that I wish we all were as clueless about the care of horses as so many seem to believe. Many of us have no problem, whatsoever, understanding why bar shoes, glue-on shoes, etc, may be needed. Many of us are aware of the need to scope a horse, why its done. Why would anyone find either abusive? I believe these measures fall under "preventive maintenance".

If I don't ever hear the term, "taken out of context" again, it will be too soon. Trainers ignore quite a lot that's in the video--such as the state of Nehro's feet, unnecessary thyroid med, etc.

One can go on ad nauseum, but right now the video--in whatever context you choose--is what it is. DEAL WITH IT. And get on with how in the hell to fix it!

I learned this term the other day- False Dilemna-presenting only two alternatives to a complex situation when in fact there are many more. For example "you don't support our troops so that makes you a traitor" I think this applies to what you are trying to say here. How can we say we agree with the video when so many things were presented out of context? Yes I said it. But we can't say we are ok with it either because of the thyroid thing, etc. the intelligent thing to do is educate the public on some things and make changes to fix the others. But you will never fix people running their mouth to sound cool, it's not gonna happen.

[cj]

Good stuff. I particularly like Ken McPeek admitting it isn't all wine and roses with Lasix. There are definite downsides to it.

[greengorilla]

Good stuff. I particularly like Ken McPeek admitting it isn't all wine and roses with Lasix. There are definite downsides to it.

The crazy thing about Lasix is just as many jockeys take it to lose weight as horses do to stop bleeding. I know several severly arthritic backstretch workers that have told me they have used bute before.

[Grits]

I learned this term the other day- False Dilemna-presenting only two alternatives to a complex situation when in fact there are many more. For example "you don't support our troops so that makes you a traitor" I think this applies to what you are trying to say here. How can we say we agree with the video when so many things were presented out of context? Yes I said it. But we can't say we are ok with it either because of the thyroid thing, etc. the intelligent thing to do is educate the public on some things and make changes to fix the others. But you will never fix people running their mouth to sound cool, it's not gonna happen.

Delaware, this man's language is of no consequence whatsoever to me; vulgarity is no substitute for intelligence or wit. What else can I say? His problem, not mine. I hate it for him. :faint:

The horses, on the other hand, mean something to all of us. I have enough knowledge to understand that there are drugs wrongly put into horses everyday. I have enough knowledge to understand that, yes, there are good trainers. Barns who conduct their operations well.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I know better. But I also can fully recognize a problem when one exists.

While the state of Thoroughbred racing remains in great decline, or as many have come to believe, on life support. Time is NOT on our side, at this point. Education takes time, and a lot of it. Let's take that path, and see how things work out for the next five years. How would you like to start? Perhaps seminars for fans, bettors, and would be owners, complete with video and trainer narrative?

However, you can take an alternative path. You can clean up this sport with a governing body and standardized rules that every trainer has to abide by. If he/she doesn't, sorry, they have no business working with these animals. Therefore, look for employment elsewhere. Or if fined, get kicked out of it. So yes, maybe this is, as you note, a false dilemma. But as bettors and fans, we're accustomed to a good deal that has been carried out, not only as wrong, but too, as FALSE. Tracks need those skyrocketing takeouts!

When all is settled it comes down to this, Delaware. If your practices are remotely questionable ... be it administration of lasix, bute, thyrozine, linaments, shock treatments, accupunture, etc. If you haven't the knowledge of their safety or their withdrawal times, so as to cause your horses to race while not in their best form, placing them at risk? I don't want you in this sport. And, I think, maybe, neither do most of the gentlemen here that wager on it everyday.

[Delawaretrainer]

Delaware, this man's language is of no consequence whatsoever to me; vulgarity is no substitute for intelligence or wit. What else can I say? His problem, not mine. I hate it for him. :faint:

The horses, on the other hand, mean something to all of us. I have enough knowledge to understand that there are drugs wrongly put into horses everyday. I have enough knowledge to understand that, yes, there are good trainers. Barns who conduct their operations well.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I know better. But I also can fully recognize a problem when one exists.

While the state of Thoroughbred racing remains in great decline, or as many have come to believe, on life support. Time is NOT on our side, at this point. Education takes time, and a lot of it. Let's take that path, and see how things work out for the next five years. How would you like to start? Perhaps seminars for fans, bettors, and would be owners, complete with video and trainer narrative?

However, you can take an alternative path. You can clean up this sport with a governing body and standardized rules that every trainer has to abide by. If he/she doesn't, sorry, they have no business working with these animals. Therefore, look for employment elsewhere. Or if fined, get kicked out of it. So yes, maybe this is, as you note, a false dilemma. But as bettors and fans, we're accustomed to a good deal that has been carried out, not only as wrong, but too, as FALSE. Tracks need those skyrocketing takeouts!

When all is settled it comes down to this, Delaware. If your practices are remotely questionable ... be it administration of lasix, bute, thyrozine, linaments, shock treatments, accupunture, etc. If you haven't the knowledge of their safety or their withdrawal times, so as to cause your horses to race while not in their best form, placing them at risk? I don't want you in this sport. And, I think, maybe, neither do most of the gentlemen here that wager on it everyday.

Ok , I'll start with educating you. We already have governing bodies and the standardization of drug rules are almost complete. You can see here http://www.rmtcnet.com/resources/RMTC%20Press%20Kit%20Information%20-%20April%202013.pdf. Even before this I can't think of any jurisdiction allowed anything to kill pain on race day. These new rules push aback some therapeutic medication whose long term use could negatively effect the horse. (Clenbuterol).

Regarding shockwave , this is a legitimate therapy in horses. When regulators realized it had a side effect of killing pain they regulated it. Your horse has to be identified by the state vet and goes on a list that restricts when it can run. In the video , blasi makes no mention that they shockwave horses, he is just explaining what it is.

So, please be specific, what rule do you think is missing here? Tell me exactly what the industry is missed and I will respond to you. What do you see I'm this video that you know for a fact that is being done to the detriment if the horse ?

You can't regulate how people talk about horses, it's how you are raised. There actually are rules around how you act and you can be fined for running your mouth but someone has to see you. The industry also has to figure out how to deal with the thyroid medication thing as it is naturally in the horse.

[cj]

So, please be specific, what rule do you think is missing here? Tell me exactly what the industry is missed and I will respond to you. What do you see I'm this video that you know for a fact that is being done to the detriment if the horse ?

Easy one, how about giving drugs for competitive reasons, not because horses need them, such as thyrozine?

We know Baffert did it, and then it is mentioned again in the video. It was done to increase metabolism, not any medical reason. How is that acceptable and not against the rules? That is the definition of a performance enhancer.

[Delawaretrainer]

Easy one, how about giving drugs for competitive reasons, not because horses need them, such as thyrozine?

We know Baffert did it, and then it is mentioned again in the video. It was done to increase metabolism, not any medical reason. How is that acceptable and not against the rules? That is the definition of a performance enhancer.

If you read my post thoroughly you will see that I mention this as a problem. Although there are rules against medications that alter the horses systems or act as a stimulant or depressant, thyroid medication is not testable and may (although the chances are slim) be necessary if the horse is hypothyroid. This is why clenbuterol has been phased out as although it has a legitimate purpose, it was being abused. The difference is clenbuterol is a drug that is detectable for weeks, thyro-l is not. It is identical to what is produced by the thyroid gland. So. Commissions are going to have to see how to approach this. Until Baffert, I don't think anyone knew this was being done. Maybe they hired the same toxicologist. This is why people are honing in on the ethics of vets and why this would be prescribed without diagnosis.

I for one do not want to have to get a diagnosis every time I want to use a prescription drug. I may want to give a NSAID here and there or standard antibiotics for a snotty nose without going through red tape. However, I think it would be justified to mandate a diagnosis via blood test for every horse on thyro l for any horse receiving it.

But don't make it seem that the track is a lawless place with no rules. The rules exist and are very strict. But this is a moving target, some guys are constantly looking for an edge and this is the latest thing. The rmtc works to try to stay ahead of these things and in this case they weren't. Short of hiring a psychic I don't know what they could have done.

[onefast99]

Good stuff. I particularly like Ken McPeek admitting it isn't all wine and roses with Lasix. There are definite downsides to it.
We have a 3 y/o who is allergic to bute we found out the hard way he got the thumps.

[Grits]

Delaware, I love horses and I love thoroughbred racing. I've been reading for many years about drugs in racing. And with each year, I'm sorry, it doesn't become less of a problem. To me, it becomes apparent that drugs are a greater problem.

I'm not one who needs to be educated. Actually, I can probably assist in educating because if I'm about anything--its detail. Please, realize, you are not at Twitter, you are not at Face Book. These gentlemen know more than those who spend their time at either. They can spot a form reversal in less time than it takes to turn to page 2 of today's DRF.

Say what you will about the rules set by the RMTC, but this is a large number, and it doesn't seem to be consoling many of us when we read the following:

November 2012: The RMTC Board approves a limited list of therapeutic medications that are allowed to be present in a horse on race day. This therapeutic medication list is based upon recommendations from the American Association of Equine Practitioners. By permitting these 24 medications, the RMTC has recommended that the presence of any other medications is prohibited in post race sampling.

Included in the first few pages (beginning on page 3) of this 61 page document is the list of those 24 drugs? Would this be correct? ... Delaware, I'm gonna tell ya like a friend, 24 is a pretty large number of permitted meds.

http://www.ntra.com/media/8230584/Exhibits%20to%20RMTC%20Letter%20to%20RCI%20Regulat ors.pdf

The Q&A is helpful, and at times, revealing of a mindset by veterinarians. This remains a problem.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_faq.asp
Question: Are the procedures for testing racehorses the same, regardless of state and regardless of breed of horse?
Dr. Benson: No. Procedures vary widely from state to state and usually depend on the level of funding a state has for the testing budget.

Now, on to those dead horses in Baffert's barn and the CHRB's investigation. Its not the NYTimes or PETA. Its a blog piece written in 2 parts including the many problems of drugs in race horses including thyroxine and others with links to documented findings.

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/deadly-to-horses-the-baffert-effect-part-1/

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/deadly-to-horses-the-baffert-effect-part-2/

There may be something, somewhere, in all of this that will help to bring about better communication between all parties and organizations.

[stuball]

As an industry they have to come down hard -crushingly so - on all proven cheaters....of course to punish them for their actions...but also to relieve the pressure on the non cheaters to do it to remain competitive...I can not imagine
how some resist the pressure to cheat when others do it and get away clean or with a silly little naughty naughty. stables should be limited in how many horses they can have in training at a track..track suits won't come down on them because then there are short fields..well limit them I say....let others in that will follow the rules...very seldom I post because it seems to be a futile attempt at nothing....

Stuball
:ThmbUp:

[Delawaretrainer]

Delaware, I love horses and I love thoroughbred racing. I've been reading for many years about drugs in racing. And with each year, I'm sorry, it doesn't become less of a problem. To me, it becomes apparent that drugs are a greater problem.

I'm not one who needs to be educated. Actually, I can probably assist in educating because if I'm about anything--its detail. Please, realize, you are not at Twitter, you are not at Face Book. These gentlemen know more than those who spend their time at either. They can spot a form reversal in less time than it takes to turn to page 2 of today's DRF.

Say what you will about the rules set by the RMTC, but this is a large number, and it doesn't seem to be consoling many of us when we read the following:



Included in the first few pages (beginning on page 3) of this 61 page document is the list of those 24 drugs? Would this be correct? ... Delaware, I'm gonna tell ya like a friend, 24 is a pretty large number of permitted meds.

http://www.ntra.com/media/8230584/Exhibits%20to%20RMTC%20Letter%20to%20RCI%20Regulat ors.pdf

The Q&A is helpful, and at times, revealing of a mindset by veterinarians. This remains a problem.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_faq.asp


Now, on to those dead horses in Baffert's barn and the CHRB's investigation. Its not the NYTimes or PETA. Its a blog piece written in 2 parts including the many problems of drugs in race horses including thyroxine and others with links to documented findings.

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/deadly-to-horses-the-baffert-effect-part-1/

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/deadly-to-horses-the-baffert-effect-part-2/

There may be something, somewhere, in all of this that will help to bring about better communication between all parties and organizations.

Ok, did you read the list of medications? Do you know what they are? None of them are in the list because they are to have any effect on raceday with the exception of LASIx. It can also be argued that joint injections can help horses for months. The 24 drugs can be found in a post race sample but not in a concentration that would effect pain or performance on race day. The list includes NSAIDs, tranquilizers, muscle relaxers, etc. that way, you can treat horses that tie up, tranq horses that need stitches, block horses for diagnostics, etc which are all things that will need to be done in the life of an average racing stable. Thresholds are necessary as these meds may be detectable for weeks after administration, long after they have any effects. As testing continues to get more sophisticated, the limit of detection will be smaller, hence the thresholds which should be constant.

If any argument has been made in the compilation of this list it is "why just 24?". Let me give you an example why. There are many medications for ulcers including ranitidine, sucralfate, cimetidine and omeprazole. But only one is on the list, the one that cost over $30 per day. Cheaper alternatives can cost a couple of dollars per day. So you can imagine that horseman might find the list limiting when attempting to take care of their horses. Yet, if people like you hear a horseman say they need to expand the list you accuse them of being drug dependent amongst other things. In reality we know we can keep more horses ulcer free if the cheaper options were allowed. That list may expand based upon what I have explained so don't be shocked. It is an attempt at uniformity so horseman can stay within the rules, not cheat.

You also mention differences in labs...do you know that laboratory accreditation is part of the adoption of the rules? Some jurisdictions have changed who they contract to comply. So I'm not sure what you point is on that.

Stop worrying about bute, ulcer medicine etc. the people cheating are not using anything on this list. They are using things that are eliminated by race time. So wasting your time fretting about this list improves nothing in the sport.

Yes, the thyro l has to be dealt with and anything else naturally occurring in the horses body that changes metabolism. Think of a way to police this and recommend it to the rmtc if you have any ideas.

I don't have more time to teach you under what innocent circumstances the 24. Meds may be used. I suggest you speak to your vet.

[cj]

I for one do not want to have to get a diagnosis every time I want to use a prescription drug.



Then you should have went to veterinary school I guess. I mean really, I don't want to go to the doctor every time I need a prescription, but I do.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Any horse can be put on lasix WITHOUT being scoped to really see if he needs it,There is a form the vets have letting you do this,So IMO lasix is highly abused in horses..My horse get the min allowed.Thyroid meds are also abused as when you take a blood the first thing a vet will tell you is,Let me check his thyroid...This is a powder that you give with his feed..Its the norm (Florida) to give your horse banamine 48 hours and the norm to give them bute 24 hours before a race..They have several drugs to help with any joint problems besides injecting a joint if that what you want to do,These drugs are azuim to help suckup any pressure in the joints and they also have a drug called Vetalog which also helps.Lots of vets have gone to using Vetalog to inject joints because its much easier on the joints then cortizone.Injecting a horse joints for maitenince is no different then a hockey player getting ready for the game.It becomes a problem when they are injected each and every race..Most injections will last 30 days.Horses do get fluid buildup in their joints from the contant pounding as they run..You will even find young horses with this.Mostly if you pickup a horses leg and flex his ankle,He will either flinch in pain or you wont get any response.Flinching in pain tells you he needs eith rest or you have to inject his ankles or knees or stifles or hocks.Injecting with steroids (cortizone) will ruin the bursa sack in the ankle and cause the ankles to grow.Too much cortizone will weaken the bone joint and we all know what happens then.Young horse with sore joints can be injected with Hylaronic acid and a bit of cortizone mixed with genisin to avoid any infection and then turn them out to heal.They do have a lot of old school methods besides injecting to help with this problem like a light blister,ice tubs etc.The world of racing has gotten away with old school methods and its now a vets world.Go on the backside of GP in the morning,They have more vets there then horseman.I do agree there needs to be some sort of regulation and tougher testing.You can do everything within the rules of racing to win a race but there are always guys using something and we have to compete against them.

[Grits]

Ok, did you read the list of medications? Do you know what they are? None of them are in the list because they are to have any effect on raceday with the exception of LASIx. It can also be argued that joint injections can help horses for months. The 24 drugs can be found in a post race sample but not in a concentration that would effect pain or performance on race day. The list includes NSAIDs, tranquilizers, muscle relaxers, etc. that way, you can treat horses that tie up, tranq horses that need stitches, block horses for diagnostics, etc which are all things that will need to be done in the life of an average racing stable. Thresholds are necessary as these meds may be detectable for weeks after administration, long after they have any effects. As testing continues to get more sophisticated, the limit of detection will be smaller, hence the thresholds which should be constant.

Thank you for your reply, yes I did read the medications and I'm aware of all of the benefits of injecting horses joints. I understand, this isn't a revelation. I'm aware, too, as Tom notes, giving a horse time off for the maladies that it may be plagued by is beneficial. I believe this is the hallmark of a fine horseman.

If any argument has been made in the compilation of this list it is "why just 24?". Let me give you an example why. There are many medications for ulcers including ranitidine, sucralfate, cimetidine and omeprazole. But only one is on the list, the one that cost over $30 per day. Cheaper alternatives can cost a couple of dollars per day. So you can imagine that horseman might find the list limiting when attempting to take care of their horses. Yet, if people like you hear a horseman say they need to expand the list you accuse them of being drug dependent amongst other things.

In your last sentence, I'm sorry but you're exaggerating, and appear in denial that we currently have a problem in what we are choosing to put in the guts of horses in order to keep them racing, providing income for trainers and purse money for owners.

In reality we know we can keep more horses ulcer free if the cheaper options were allowed. That list may expand based upon what I have explained so don't be shocked. It is an attempt at uniformity so horseman can stay within the rules, not cheat.

Ok, like it or not, when drug companies bring a drug to market, for a long period of time they have the patent on that drug, and for good reason. They took on all the R & D. When that patent expires, that drug is then able to be produced in every corner of the world, including conditions in 3rd world countries that are unsanitary, and unfathomable in regard to quality control, all under absolutely no FDA approval or guidelines. So, consequently, sure, animals like humans, can be dosed with cheaper generics. But, you and I have no assurance that we, or the animals in our care, are getting the exact same drug in its prescribed dosage level. This has been proven, documented. Cheaper doesn't always create a better outcome especially for a horse trainer or a veterinarian, neither of whom have a degree in pharmacology. Ever had your physician phone your pharmacist to ask HIS/HER opinion on exactly which medication may bring about the best response to the problem presented? I have. Both professionals rely on one another's expertise.

You also mention differences in labs...do you know that laboratory accreditation is part of the adoption of the rules? Some jurisdictions have changed who they contract to comply. So I'm not sure what you point is on that.

I've provided links to the RMTC, but I'm sorry, maybe you can help me because I've not, that I can see, referred to labs. Though, yes, the question was asked in the linked Q & A regarding funding within states. Surely, everyone understands that these facilities must be accredited, given most entities in the field of medicine require such.

Thank you for the exchange.

[taxicab]

Let's take a closer look at a few of the permitted medications off of the link Grits posted......and what effect the meds can have on a horse.

Phenylbutazone:
Bute is an anti-inflammatory used to control pain. It is injected intravenously.

Flunixin:
An anti-inflammatory that works faster than phenylbutazone.

Methylprednisolone:
A strong cortisone injected into the joints to fight arthritis and degenerative joint disease.

Three examples were used:
An anti-inflammatory used to control pain....... that would be a painkiller or a pain reliever.

And an anti-inflammatory that works faster than the PB.....why does a horse need such a fast acting pain blocker/killer ?
Flunixin is the drug that got RX Rudy suspended(more than once?) by the powers that be in New York.
I mean if Rudy is using it.....nothing sneaky going on there.

Methylpprednisolone.....
The horse already has a pre existing arthritic and degenerative joint condition and a cortisone shot is administered directly into the horses joint.
Yeah, that sounds harmless for a race horse.

[Delawaretrainer]

Then you should have went to veterinary school I guess. I mean really, I don't want to go to the doctor every time I need a prescription, but I do.

Ok, do you realize that in some cases we treat as a form of diagnosis with our vets blessing? For example, scoping for ulcers is stressful for the horse and expensive. The camera has to go all the way into the stomach. So, the usual course of action is to start treatment and watch for changes in behavior like cleaning up the feed tub better. So, I have to have a vet bill to do this? What if I want to use preventive for every horse in the barn? Do I need to use a separate bottle for each one? That is totally dumb. This was brought up in the Peta video and is an example of where they showed a lack of understanding between good and bad.

[Delawaretrainer]

Let's take a closer look at a few of the permitted medications off of the link Grits posted......and what effect the meds can have on a horse.

Phenylbutazone:
Bute is an anti-inflammatory used to control pain. It is injected intravenously.

Flunixin:
An anti-inflammatory that works faster than phenylbutazone.

Methylprednisolone:
A strong cortisone injected into the joints to fight arthritis and degenerative joint disease.

Three examples were used:
An anti-inflammatory used to control pain....... that would be a painkiller or a pain reliever.

And an anti-inflammatory that works faster than the PB.....why does a horse need such a fast acting pain blocker/killer ?
Flunixin is the drug that got RX Rudy suspended(more than once?) by the powers that be in New York.
I mean if Rudy is using it.....nothing sneaky going on there.

Methylpprednisolone.....
The horse already has a pre existing arthritic and degenerative joint condition and a cortisone shot is administered directly into the horses joint.
Yeah, that sounds harmless for a race horse.

In one of my responses I mentioned that an exception to the things that wouldn't help on race day are joint injections. They have pushed back the withdrawal period on them especially depo which is the one that will have a negative effect if overused. They can be a very good thing for the horse especially if hyluronic acid is used (sounds bad but it is like taking thin joint fluid out and adding fresh viscous liquid that cushions the joint). They can be overdone and I think that when multiple trainers claim horses and all use cortisone it has a negative effect on the horse. I also believe that it alters the horses chemistry so when you stop the horse has trouble metabolically (my opinion). So, in the wrong hands they can be overused to the detriment of the horse. There is a lot of attention around vet record transfer to help with this, including a new process in Ny. The timing between injection and race has been pushed back a couple times.

As far as ban amine goes , I believe it can't be used closer than 48 in the new rules. Therefore I don't use it. I could be wrong but I think NY was 24 when that happened to Rudy. After his second one I stopped believing he was doing it on purpose, he's not stupid. Therefore giving it 48 hrs is a waste of money. Bute is 24 but I have been advised to do 36 to be safe. Again probably a waste of money for ridding a horse of pain.

[Delawaretrainer]

Grits, not all labs are accredited to the degree required by the new uniform rules. There is a large document describing everything they need to do to comply . I'm sure the document is on the rmtc website somewhere. Although accredited in some way, these labs may have been using different equipment and techniques so there was no uniformity.

Also, you misunderstand my explanation of only one option being available to horseman within a class. It is not a matter of brand vs generic. They are completely different drugs. I can already legally use generic gastoguard (omeprazole). This drops the price from 36 per day to sometimes 10-25. The other options are a couple of dollars a day. Gastoguard is considered the best for healing ulcers, however, the others are very effective at preventing them. A common strategy would be to use gastriguard for a few weeks to heal, then switch over to another med for maintenance. So......we can't do that, it's gastriguard or nothing. This restrictive on does nothing to help horses. But, it's not something that is so major to me, but it is an example of how 24 drugs is not a lot.

I do not expect everyone to think everything is great. My point is that many of you are harping on the wrong things. Figure out what these guys are doing that makes them magicians. Trust me it's not bute or anything they know will be tested for and measured. They will never fix this problem with just post race testing.

[Mineshaft]

Banamine 48 hrs out is a waste of money and Bute 24 hrs out is a waste of money. Might as well pour it on the ground.


Banamine needs to be 24 hrs out and Bute 12-15 hrs out.

[Mineshaft]

Grits, not all labs are accredited to the degree required by the new uniform rules. There is a large document describing everything they need to do to comply . I'm sure the document is on the rmtc website somewhere. Although accredited in some way, these labs may have been using different equipment and techniques so there was no uniformity.

Also, you misunderstand my explanation of only one option being available to horseman within a class. It is not a matter of brand vs generic. They are completely different drugs. I can already legally use generic gastoguard (omeprazole). This drops the price from 36 per day to sometimes 10-25. The other options are a couple of dollars a day. Gastoguard is considered the best for healing ulcers, however, the others are very effective at preventing them. A common strategy would be to use gastriguard for a few weeks to heal, then switch over to another med for maintenance. So......we can't do that, it's gastriguard or nothing. This restrictive on does nothing to help horses. But, it's not something that is so major to me, but it is an example of how 24 drugs is not a lot.

I do not expect everyone to think everything is great. My point is that many of you are harping on the wrong things. Figure out what these guys are doing that makes them magicians. Trust me it's not bute or anything they know will be tested for and measured. They will never fix this problem with just post race testing.






Bingo we have a winner.............



You are correct everyone is harping on bute, banamine,injections, Gastroguard, clenbuterol, Thyroid L when all these things are legal in horse racing. Its not these things people its something else and unless they start testing for it it wont ever change.

[cj]

Ok, do you realize that in some cases we treat as a form of diagnosis with our vets blessing? For example, scoping for ulcers is stressful for the horse and expensive. The camera has to go all the way into the stomach. So, the usual course of action is to start treatment and watch for changes in behavior like cleaning up the feed tub better. So, I have to have a vet bill to do this? What if I want to use preventive for every horse in the barn? Do I need to use a separate bottle for each one? That is totally dumb. This was brought up in the Peta video and is an example of where they showed a lack of understanding between good and bad.

How do you get a vets blessing without at least some consultation? If a trainer is doing it based on experience, that just doesn't fly. Trainers should not be treating horses with drugs without at least consulting a vet, and yes, paying a fee. How do you even get the drugs without doing so? That, I'm sorry, is a problem. It will always look bad, and frankly, is bad.

As for preventative medicines, what exactly is being prevented? Lasix somehow went from a drug to help control bleeding with proven bleeders to one used to prevent bleeding in nearly every horse that runs. I don't trust meds that are used as preventative, I've seen where that leads.

[Delawaretrainer]

How do you get a vets blessing without at least some consultation? If a trainer is doing it based on experience, that just doesn't fly. Trainers should not be treating horses with drugs without at least consulting a vet, and yes, paying a fee. How do you even get the drugs without doing so? That, I'm sorry, is a problem. It will always look bad, and frankly, is bad.

As for preventative medicines, what exactly is being prevented? Lasix somehow went from a drug to help control bleeding with proven bleeders to one used to prevent bleeding in nearly every horse that runs. I don't trust meds that are used as preventative, I've seen where that leads.

Well if you have an issue with a trainer having a program to prevent and treat ulcers, there is nothing I can say to change your mind. It is a total waste of time for me to even talk about it if you don't get it. Ulcers are present in most racehorses. Omeprazole is Prilosec used in humans. Ranitidine is Zantac. Cimetidine is Tagamet. I'm sorry, I'm not going to buy the fact that there is any wrongdoing in having a general program for ulcers in a racehorse. People do this with riding horses all the time. Ulcer guard is the same thing as gastriguard but over the counter. Vets can help us come up with this program but it is not necessary to consult the vet on every horse. If you have an issue with this I'm sorry, nothing I can do. But I would suggest you put your energy into opposing something that doesnt helps horses, not create boundaries to prevent horses from getting relief from a common painful problem.

[Delawaretrainer]

Banamine 48 hrs out is a waste of money and Bute 24 hrs out is a waste of money. Might as well pour it on the ground.


Banamine needs to be 24 hrs out and Bute 12-15 hrs out.

Thank you Mineshaft, finally someone who is the voice of reason. I think they should be asking the committees that designed the withdrawal times of these drugs if it allows for pain management on raceday. I'm sure they will say no. The levels are measured in millionths and trillionths of a gram. ( pictograms).

Some guys still use them as a prerace but I feel that as withdrawal times were pushed back many are abstaining. Also the two week withdrawal time basically means you can't use it if your horse is running regularly.

[cj]

Well if you have an issue with a trainer having a program to prevent and treat ulcers, there is nothing I can say to change your mind. It is a total waste of time for me to even talk about it if you don't get it. Ulcers are present in most racehorses. Omeprazole is Prilosec used in humans. Ranitidine is Zantac. Cimetidine is Tagamet. I'm sorry, I'm not going to buy the fact that there is any wrongdoing in having a general program for ulcers in a racehorse. People do this with riding horses all the time. Ulcer guard is the same thing as gastriguard but over the counter. Vets can help us come up with this program but it is not necessary to consult the vet on every horse. If you have an issue with this I'm sorry, nothing I can do. But I would suggest you put your energy into opposing something that doesnt helps horses, not create boundaries to prevent horses from getting relief from a common painful problem.

I'm not talking about specific drugs here. But in general, drugs are never going to be looked at as good by the public. And, without public approval, racing won't exist for long. You said prescription drugs. Trainers should not be diagnosing health issues and dispensing prescription drugs, period. That is my only point. I'm not getting into the pros and cons of specific prescription drugs.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust horsemen to be vets, nor should I. Vets go to school for a reason. It is MUCH easier to get a trainer's license. That doesn't make a trainer a vet.

[Delawaretrainer]

Banamine 48 hrs out is a waste of money and Bute 24 hrs out is a waste of money. Might as well pour it on the ground.


Banamine needs to be 24 hrs out and Bute 12-15 hrs out.

Thank you Mineshaft, finally someone who is the voice of reason. I think they should be asking the committees that designed the withdrawal times of these drugs if it allows for pain management on raceday. I'm sure they will say no. The levels are measured in millionths and trillionths of a gram. ( pictograms).

Some guys still use them as a prerace but I feel that as withdrawal times were pushed back many are abstaining. Also the two week withdrawal time on clenbuterol basically means you can't use it if your horse is running regularly.

[Mineshaft]

I'm not talking about specific drugs here. But in general, drugs are never going to be looked at as good by the public. And, without public approval, racing won't exist for long. You said prescription drugs. Trainers should not be diagnosing health issues and dispensing prescription drugs, period. That is my only point. I'm not getting into the pros and cons of specific prescription drugs.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust horsemen to be vets, nor should I. Vets go to school for a reason. It is MUCH easier to get a trainer's license. That doesn't make a trainer a vet.





You would be surprised at how some trainers are very good at vet subjects.

[cj]

You would be surprised at how some trainers are very good at vet subjects.

It doesn't matter. They aren't vets. That won't fly in the public's eye. And the public's eye is going to be on the sport a lot more closely now, you can count on it. You want to lose the slots money? Misuse of drugs is an easy target. Hell, the legislators don't need an excuse to take it away. It is already happening. But why make it easy? And it doesn't have to end with losing subsidies. The game can go away a lot easier than some people seem to realize.

[Delawaretrainer]

I'm not talking about specific drugs here. But in general, drugs are never going to be looked at as good by the public. And, without public approval, racing won't exist for long. You said prescription drugs. Trainers should not be diagnosing health issues and dispensing prescription drugs, period. That is my only point. I'm not getting into the pros and cons of specific prescription drugs.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust horsemen to be vets, nor should I. Vets go to school for a reason. It is MUCH easier to get a trainer's license. That doesn't make a trainer a vet.
Why not be specific? You want to make negative generalizations on a subject but then when I bring up a real circumstance that makes sense you don't want to be specific? What are you asking for? A $300 vet bill times 40 to treat ulcers? Are you a horse person? I would think not because we all should have a medicine chest of prescription meds because there is no horse ambulance you call 911 for. We keep banamine for colic, bute for fevers, tranquilizers for god knows what comes up. If you call a vet for colic and they are an hour away they will tell you to give banamine and possibly tranquilizers the horse to prevent a torsion if it's real bad. Now his the heck are these things going to be handy if things are the way you want it? They won't, according to you I would need a vet consultation and script which takes lots of time. The horse would be DEAD in your world.

This is an example of how bending to public perception that is not reality is BAD and potentially deadly to horses. The answer is to educate, not have a knee jerk reaction to someone that has never been on the end of a lead shank of a real racehorse.

[cj]

Why not be specific? You want to make negative generalizations on a subject but then when I bring up a real circumstance that makes sense you don't want to be specific? What are you asking for? A $300 vet bill times 40 to treat ulcers? Are you a horse person? I would think not because we all should have a medicine chest of prescription meds because there is no horse ambulance you call 911 for. We keep banamine for colic, bute for fevers, tranquilizers for god knows what comes up. If you call a vet for colic and they are an hour away they will tell you to give banamine and possibly tranquilizers the horse to prevent a torsion if it's real bad. Now his the heck are these things going to be handy if things are the way you want it? They won't, according to you I would need a vet consultation and script which takes lots of time. The horse would be DEAD in your world.

This is an example of how bending to public perception that is not reality is BAD and potentially deadly to horses. The answer is to educate, not have a knee jerk reaction to someone that has never been on the end of a lead shank of a real racehorse.

Then why is a prescription needed for these drugs? It makes no sense.

[Delawaretrainer]

Then why is a prescription needed for these drugs? It makes no sense.

Horses are different than people. They don't have access to a hospital like people . It is usually hours away. They also don't have access to a drug store of effective over the counter meds. Everything, with the exception of aspirin and a couple other things like ulcer guard is prescription. Yes, you can go to walmart and buy boxes and boxes of Tagamet and use it on your horse. But the vet can give you apple flavored horse medicine that actually gets in them. I'm also sure your not going to have a circumstance where you have to tranquilizer your kid because he's going to kill himself and others. What if I get a flat on my trailer and my horse starts thrashing around? Ever been in a trailer when a horse does that? Very dangerous. You bet I'm gonna wish I had something with me to tranq him.

[Delawaretrainer]

Then why is a prescription needed for these drugs? It makes no sense.
And thank you for listening. It is frustrating for horseman that want the best for their horses to be accused of wrongdoing. When I first started training, I had a perception that a lot of trainers were clueless and used horses as machines blah blah blah. Guess what, I realized that isn't true, most are great horseman with a good eye that know how to take care of a horse. Once I got my butt kicked a few times and saw how awesome their horses looked my goal was to do the same

[cj]

And thank you for listening. It is frustrating for horseman that want the best for their horses to be accused of wrongdoing. When I first started training, I had a perception that a lot of trainers were clueless and used horses as machines blah blah blah. Guess what, I realized that isn't true, most are great horseman with a good eye that know how to take care of a horse. Once I got my butt kicked a few times and saw how awesome their horses looked my goal was to do the same

OK, this is all fair enough. I'm no fan of Lasix. I've made that clear many times. I was glad to see McPeek speak against it. So many horsemen just tow the company line without being honest it gets frustrating. Are there worse things than Lasix? Of course, much worse.

As I've said numerous times, my biggest problem with the video is way a medication was used not for its intended purpose, but to increase metabolism. That is strictly for performance enhancement. That kind of stuff is never going to fly, but seems to be acceptable in the industry. Why? That can't be tolerated. While a drug may be legal, using for a purpose other than what it is intended for should be illegal. There is no way to shine a nice light on that one for the public. That is, plain and simple, abusing an animal. And, it is in the video for all to see.

Baffert already admitted to doing the exact same thing and likely killed seven horses because of it. Absolutely zero punishment was meted out. When stuff like that happens, and in this case it was a top trainer in the game doing it, I get leery of trainers thinking they are vets. The video points out this was hardly isolated. Word travels on the backside, and another trainer (I'm sure MANY were) was doing the same thing on the opposite coast.

[Delawaretrainer]

OK, this is all fair enough. I'm no fan of Lasix. I've made that clear many times. I was glad to see McPeek speak against it. So many horsemen just tow the company line without being honest it gets frustrating. Are there worse things than Lasix? Of course, much worse.

As I've said numerous times, my biggest problem with the video is way a medication was used not for its intended purpose, but to increase metabolism. That is strictly for performance enhancement. That kind of stuff is never going to fly, but seems to be acceptable in the industry. Why? That can't be tolerated. While a drug may be legal, using for a purpose other than what it is intended for should be illegal. There is no way to shine a nice light on that one for the public. That is, plain and simple, abusing an animal. And, it is in the video for all to see.

Baffert already admitted to doing the exact same thing and likely killed seven horses because of it. Absolutely zero punishment was meted out. When stuff like that happens, and in this case it was a top trainer in the game doing it, I get leery of trainers thinking they are vets. The video points out this was hardly isolated. Word travels on the backside, and another trainer (I'm sure MANY were) was doing the same thing on the opposite coast.

I don't know anyone in the industry that is ok with the thyro l thing. Some people have said its legal but that doesn't mean they agree with it. The commissions have to act on that now though. There are two types of people, those that are appalled by this news and those that are thinking "I better go get some for my horses because other guys are using it "

[cj]

I don't know anyone in the industry that is ok with the thyro l thing. Some people have said its legal but that doesn't mean they agree with it. The commissions have to act on that now though. There are two types of people, those that are appalled by this news and those that are thinking "I better go get some for my horses because other guys are using it "

Well, they were apparently ok with it in California.

You are right that there are two kinds of people. Unfortunately for the ones in the former camp, until something is done about this kind of stuff, there will only be one camp that the public cares about...the latter.

The cat is out of the bag. It is time to enact some changes.

[Grits]

I don't know anyone in the industry that is ok with the thyro l thing. Some people have said its legal but that doesn't mean they agree with it. The commissions have to act on that now though. There are two types of people, those that are appalled by this news and those that are thinking "I better go get some for my horses because other guys are using it "

Delaware, you can't have the conversation work two ways. You don't know anyone that is ok with it. But, for those who've said its legal, why don't they agree with it? Let's revisit a term you spoke of.

I learned this term the other day-False Dilemma-presenting only two alternatives to a complex situation when in fact there are many more. For example "you don't support our troops so that makes you a traitor" I think this applies to what you are trying to say here. How can we say we agree with the video when so many things were presented out of context? Yes I said it. But we can't say we are ok with it either because of the thyroid thing, etc. the intelligent thing to do is educate the public on some things and make changes to fix the others. But you will never fix people running their mouth to sound cool, it's not gonna happen.

Ok, so, its deemed legal where, and by whom, in the administration of its use in race horses? Is it in the RMTC journal of regulations? (I haven't had time to read all 61 pages.)

If its legal, then this means, its not illegal. Either it is, or it isn't. Its not complex. In terms of "false dilemma", saying its legal indicates one is comfortable with its use and affects. This is not at all different from stating, "yes, its fine to alter the metabolism of all racehorses in the barn." As was Baffert's case.

This is wrong, Delaware. This is what is killing the sport. You say thyroxine is not testable. I'll say, but oh yes it is. Tested in humans, everyday, you can count on it being testable (evidence of elevation by blood draw) in equines. In all honesty, if found in a trainer's barn? The trainer should be fined and given a mighty long vacation.

[Grits]

One other thing, Dela., I should be up front for disclosure. I've never lead horses to or from the track. I've never trained them. ... Since the 90s, I've spent more hours, though, than I can tell you at the rail for morning workouts at Keeneland, and at their race meets daily. And I've done the same at Belmont and Saratoga.

I don't want to see my sport die.

[Delawaretrainer]

Delaware, you can't have the conversation work two ways. You don't know anyone that is ok with it. But, for those who've said its legal, why don't they agree with it? Let's revisit a term you spoke of.



Ok, so, its deemed legal where, and by whom, in the administration of its use in race horses? Is it in the RMTC journal of regulations? (I haven't had time to read all 61 pages.)

If its legal, then this means, its not illegal. Either it is, or it isn't. Its not complex. In terms of "false dilemma", saying its legal indicates one is comfortable with its use and affects. This is not at all different from stating, "yes, its fine to alter the metabolism of all racehorses in the barn." As was Baffert's case.

This is wrong, Delaware. This is what is killing the sport. You say thyroxine is not testable. I'll say, but oh yes it is. Tested in humans, everyday, you can count on it being testable (evidence of elevation by blood draw) in equines. In all honesty, if found in a trainer's barn? The trainer should be fined and given a mighty long vacation.

Since when does saying something is legal or not illegal mean you agree with it? I don't make the rules. You really put a lot of thought into conjuring that up. The substance is naturally occurring in the horses body, so you would not know whether the horse was hyperthyroid naturally or due to supplementation. They would have to have a baseline on the horse for anyone to get in trouble. I may be mistaken but I also think you have to fast for thyroid tests. There are an infinite amount of naturally occurring substances that could possibly be used for performance enhancement. They are currently working on peptides and have announced that a finding will be a class 1 violation, although I'm not aware of a test. The rmtc will have to come up with a solution for this, maybe they are working on it now. The only way to classify it as illegal now is as a stimulant which is dicey as it can be legitimately used to regulate. They can also regulate its use via barn search and demand evidence via blood test as proof. I don't know, call the rmtc and freak out, don't bother me. And don't put words in my mouth that I'm ok with it, I've stated I'm not umpteen times.

[Delawaretrainer]

One other thing, Dela., I should be up front for disclosure. I've never lead horses to or from the track. I've never trained them. ... Since the 90s, I've spent more hours, though, than I can tell you at the rail for morning workouts at Keeneland, and at their race meets daily. And I've done the same at Belmont and Saratoga.

I don't want to see my sport die.

I can appreciate your passion for the sport. I too do not want it to die. But why don't you open up your mind a little and at least take away a little something from someone who cares about their horses and trains them every day (me). We are on the same team here.

[taxicab]

This is interesting reading.
They have it right.
Parts 4 through 10 hit the nail on the head.


http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-4.php

[Grits]

Since when does saying something is legal or not illegal mean you agree with it? I don't make the rules. You really put a lot of thought into conjuring that up. The substance is naturally occurring in the horses body, so you would not know whether the horse was hyperthyroid naturally or due to supplementation. They would have to have a baseline on the horse for anyone to get in trouble. I may be mistaken but I also think you have to fast for thyroid tests. There are an infinite amount of naturally occurring substances that could possibly be used for performance enhancement. They are currently working on peptides and have announced that a finding will be a class 1 violation, although I'm not aware of a test. The rmtc will have to come up with a solution for this, maybe they are working on it now. The only way to classify it as illegal now is as a stimulant which is dicey as it can be legitimately used to regulate. They can also regulate its use via barn search and demand evidence via blood test as proof. I don't know, call the rmtc and freak out, don't bother me. And don't put words in my mouth that I'm ok with it, I've stated I'm not umpteen times.

Whoa, come unglued often? I just used your little analogy, "false dilemma," that YOU threw out prior.

You've barked up the wrong tree this time. I don't freak out. I'm as steady and determined as a stone wall. This is a legitimate concern for anyone caring for, and anyone wagering on horses. And you're smarting a** off? Real professional.

You're all over the map. Winging it because you're not a veterinarian just as 99.9% of trainers are not. Everything you've stated above, anyone would know. A baseline? No joke. So would any other test requiring a starting point for the presence of quantifiable level.

Yes. You are mistaken. There is no fasting required for testing of the thyroid gland or its function. I'm positive of this fact. Here's a few more facts to educate you.

I'm done with you. You can offer nothing that would interest me further. EOC.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10328/thyroid-glands-in-horses
The implications of low thyroid hormone concentration

"There are no scientific studies to support the assertion that low thyroid hormone concentrations negatively impact the health of horses or that supplementation is necessary," says Nicholas Frank, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine.

And Franks is not alone in this view. Betta Breuhaus, MS, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the College of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State University, addressed the American Association of Equine Practitioners and explained, "Horses with clinical signs or syndromes traditionally associated with hypothyroidism often have normal thyroid function.

"Thyroid hormone status," adds Breuhaus, "should be carefully evaluated, and other potential endocrine or metabolic problems should be ruled out before a horse is placed on long-term thyroid hormone supplementation."

But what about those low thyroid hormone concentrations often found on blood tests? This is part of the hypothyroidism myth, according to Frank. "The detection of low levels of thyroid hormones in the blood is not the same as hypothyroidism," he says. "The assays used to measure T3 and T4 concentrations are well established and accurate, and the hormones are relatively stable in serum. However, the major issue with measuring thyroid hormones is that concentrations vary over time and within the same individual horse and respond to many different environmental and medical conditions."

[Delawaretrainer]

Whoa, come unglued often? I just used your little analogy, "false dilemma," that YOU threw out prior.

You've barked up the wrong tree this time. I don't freak out. I'm as steady and determined as a stone wall. This is a legitimate concern for anyone caring for, and anyone wagering on horses. And you're smarting a** off? Real professional.

You're all over the map. Winging it because you're not a veterinarian just as 99.9% of trainers are not. Everything you've stated above, anyone would know. A baseline? No joke. So would any other test requiring a starting point for the presence of quantifiable level.

Yes. You are mistaken. There is no fasting required for testing of the thyroid gland or its function. I'm positive of this fact. Here's a few more facts to educate you.

I'm done with you. You can offer nothing that would interest me further. EOC.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10328/thyroid-glands-in-horses

Ummm, I think you are freaking out right now.... And I agree with you that talking to you is like talking to a wall. But, Thank you for proving my point. Your link states "concentrations vary over time and within the same individual horse and respond to many different environmental and medical conditions". Sooooo, how do they take an elevated test in a post race sample to prove it was administered and not natural? Levels also change over the course of the day. This is possibly why they have not offered a solution involving testing as it is currently done. If you are going to regulate this you have to do it right or it is a waste of time. The commissions would lose an appeal.

I mean, human physicians can't even agree on normal thyroid levels and there is much more research than in horses. The same dilemna exists in human sports as there is a doctor that will diagnose hypothyroidism so treatment is considered to normalize rather than enhance. Read the conclusion of this story...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-thyroid-replacement-a-performance-enhancing-drug/

My reference to baselines was for the same horse during training and after a race. You ask if other testing requires a baseline. Well no, because a horse doesn't have bute naturally circulating in its body. So the baseline would be zero. This subject comes up often relating to blood gas testing as some horses can naturally have high levels.

Not every trainer crawled out from under a rock and hung a shingle out. There are a lot of educated people training. You can not wing it and expect to be successful in this game. You have to know horses, be organized, work long hours, manage money and deal with people well.

If you are that passionate about this subject, at least understand it.

[rastajenk]

The thyroid thing sounds very similar to TCO2. A lot of time and effort has been expended in establishing allowable levels and best testing methods, but the payoff has been almost beyond minimal. The value of testing as a deterrent is hard to quantify, but higher than allowable levels are rare. It's easier for a horse whose normal, or baseline, value is on the higher end of the range of normalcy to naturally go a little higher and be subject to a pre- or post-race penalty than it is for one on the low end of the normalcy range. Not only is it inherently unfair, there is no way to correlate the value of a fraction of a millimole to potential performance enhancement anyway. And yet it's part of the routine.

I can imagine thyroid testing going through a similar process, where science and due process meet and greet.

[clocker7]

Thank you, delawaretrainer, for taking the time to explain a complex matter and removing much of the mystery. If we only had to rely upon the linked materials posted by passionate reformers, then we would be getting only a fraction of the details.

Bravo, and please keep up the hard work. Too many industry people are unnecessarily wilting under fire, and trying to appease the unappeasible.

[thaskalos]

Thank you, delawaretrainer, for taking the time to explain a complex matter and removing much of the mystery. If we only had to rely upon the linked materials posted by passionate reformers, then we would be getting only a fraction of the details.

Bravo, and please keep up the hard work. Too many industry people are unnecessarily wilting under fire, and trying to appease the unappeasible.

Is that the impression that you are getting?

My impression is that the vast majority of the "industry people" couldn't care less about these allegations...and they are just waiting for the next "controversy" to come along -- so that this one could be safely pushed into the background...as all the others have been...

[Delawaretrainer]

Is that the impression that you are getting?

My impression is that the vast majority of the "industry people" couldn't care less about these allegations...and they are just waiting for the next "controversy" to come along -- so that this one could be safely pushed into the background...as all the others have been...

Not true. I have never seen a story get this much attention in racing evvvveeerrrr. I mean even the Penn arrests got talked about for a couple of weeks and died down. It is also amazing to see how people in different positions view it differently. The vast majority feel that there was a lot of sensationalizing done in the video but also some embarrassment. Remember, we eat, sleep, live, breath horses. We dream about them and when things are really bad they force you out of bed and keep you from dwelling. So, you can understand how our first reaction would be "wtf? That horse is just getting scoped" or whatever. There is a lot in that video that very easily can be taken the wrong way if you are not a professional at caring for athletic horses.

The difference is, the vast majority of industry people aren't reacting because they are busy !!! We can't take a day off. Horses need feeding, exercise, grooming, entries made, shoes put on, vet care (yup) etc. feed needs ordering, and unloading. Jockeys need to be spoken to and lines up. Reg papers need to be in the right place at the right time. Tattoos have to be put on. Payroll needs to be done and bills paid and issued. Horses need to be shipped to run. Licensing needs to be kept up to date. Out of town help needs to be organized. Trainers, jockeys and shippers need to travel. Horses at the farm need tending to. Equipment needs to be repaired and purchased. All this can't stop. It goes on around the clock. And to be honest, I have tried to clarify things for people in a logical way, and frankly it seems like a waste of time. I thought if people want to protest, at least protest with the right info so you don't look crazy. Now I understand why people go on with their jobs without even attempting it.

Regulators need to investigate to see if there was wrongdoing and act on it. Officials can not react on allegations alone. Could you imagine if everyone got rules off when someone went to the stewards and told them a story? They have to investigate. If things are legal that shouldn't be, they have to take action on it, if possible.

[clocker7]

Just so there isn't misunderstanding, let me clarify.

Most horse racing participants are going about their business. They are in the majority. However, a noisy minority are very aggressive, and are trying to paint a picture for the public that is misleading. When I said "Too many people ..." that is what I meant.

But my main point was to congratulate delawaretrainer for patiently schooling those with less knowledge, but who are acting like they represent a greater sector than actually exists.

[cj]

Just so there isn't misunderstanding, let me clarify.

Most horse racing participants are going about their business. They are in the majority. However, a noisy minority are very aggressive, and are trying to paint a picture for the public that is misleading. When I said "Too many people ..." that is what I meant.

But my main point was to congratulate delawaretrainer for patiently schooling those with less knowledge, but who are acting like they represent a greater sector than actually exists.

Yeah, we need to be schooled because it is all so great on he backside. Lets keep doing things exactly the same way because it is working so well for the game.

[clocker7]

Yeah, we need to be schooled because it is all so great on he backside. Lets keep doing things exactly the same way because it is working so well for the game.
Who said that?

I just come from the position that, all things being considered, horse racing is a net positive.

What is your position? Net positive or net negative? Please don't dodge.

[PaceAdvantage]

Who said that?

I just come from the position that, all things being considered, horse racing is a net positive.

What is your position? Net positive or net negative? Please don't dodge.The backside, horsemen - owners and trainers - brought this all upon themselves. They get exactly whatever is coming to them.

If that means more regulation and more hassle and more hoops to jump through in the process, then too bad. This is what you get for being so damn cavalier throughout all these years, thinking you all run the show and you can basically get away with whatever you want.

The chickens are going to come home to roost one of these days...and it's not going to be pretty. But just remember, no horse player ever shot up a horse with questionable meds, and no horse player ever sold a horse to the killers.

[clocker7]

The Jockey Club came into existence in early 1894, proposed as being an anti-dote to all of the ills of horseracing. The members themselves offered themselves as the answer to all of the critics inside and outside of the sport. Their strategy was to parry the legal and political onslaught, and to appease where they could. They argued that a central authority could seize the reins, clean up the mess, while fending off the actual haters and sworn enemies.

Well, history proved the folly of that approach. Their foes were jihadists and were relentless. Even though assuming more powers than any czar, the sport was abolished in their region only 14 years later. It took years of backtracking, hard labor, and sensible & measured regulation by individual states to reverse their ignominious failure and to defeat those who sought instant purity (where it never exists anyway).

So here we are in 2014, facing even lesser issues, but dealing with those portraying them as cataclysmic. And retracing the same pathetic steps of some Neville Chamberlain-type ancestors who thought they had all the answers, too.

I have approached this sport with eyes-wide-open for over 40 years, knowing full well that cheaters abound. But also with the sophistication that chasing utopia is a fool's errand.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobody is chasing utopia.

But just the same, the acceptance of anarchy won't be tolerated for very much longer.

[clocker7]

Nobody is chasing utopia.

But just the same, the acceptance of anarchy won't be tolerated for very much longer.
"Anarchy" is overstating, almost comically.

Overstating is my biggest objection. Framing the issue with breathless terms defeats anything reasonable that opponents might say. I'll gladly concede that the situation is bittersweet. But saying that is is all sour is a non-starter.

[PaceAdvantage]

I mean, human physicians can't even agree on normal thyroid levels and there is much more research than in horses. The same dilemna exists in human sports as there is a doctor that will diagnose hypothyroidism so treatment is considered to normalize rather than enhance. Read the conclusion of this story...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-thyroid-replacement-a-performance-enhancing-drug/

My reference to baselines was for the same horse during training and after a race. You ask if other testing requires a baseline. Well no, because a horse doesn't have bute naturally circulating in its body. So the baseline would be zero. This subject comes up often relating to blood gas testing as some horses can naturally have high levels.

Not every trainer crawled out from under a rock and hung a shingle out. There are a lot of educated people training. You can not wing it and expect to be successful in this game. You have to know horses, be organized, work long hours, manage money and deal with people well.

If you are that passionate about this subject, at least understand it.The link you provide makes it seem that's exactly what they are doing...enhancing rather than normalizing. This Doc Brown sees abnormality where other doctors do not.

And as for not every trainer has crawled out from under a rock to hang a shingle...true...but there seem to be an awful lot who have, especially in the last 20 years or so...

You know what they say...it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch...how many bad apples are we up to now in the sport of racing? :eek:

[PaceAdvantage]

"Anarchy" is overstating, almost comically.

Overstating is my biggest objection. Framing the issue with breathless terms defeats anything reasonable that opponents might say. I'll gladly concede that the situation is bittersweet. But saying that is is all sour is a non-starter.Not overstating it at all. We now see all sorts of people coming out and telling it like it is on the backside. Codes of silence abound. Nobody rats anyone out. So you can just imagine what is allowed to go on undetected.

If you can get away with it, and there is no test for it, a LOT of trainers WILL use it...

You have relatively new trainers obtaining ungodly hit rates....it's obscene. It's anarchy as much as it is anything else.

The state is helpless to stop it. The racing office doesn't care as long as the entry box fills. And stewards are often times a joke.

The bullshit that bettors have had to put up with...from cheating horsemen to tote vulnerabilities to outrageous takeout...this sport should have been dead and buried a long time ago.

It still can be saved...but not by folks who think the problem isn't all that serious.

[clocker7]

Not overstating it at all. We now see all sorts of people coming out and telling it like it is on the backside. Codes of silence abound. Nobody rats anyone out. So you can just imagine what is allowed to go on undetected.

If you can get away with it, and there is no test for it, a LOT of trainers WILL use it...

You have relatively new trainers obtaining ungodly hit rates....it's obscene. It's anarchy as much as it is anything else.

The state is helpless to stop it. The racing office doesn't care as long as the entry box fills. And stewards are often times a joke.

The bullshit that bettors have had to put up with...from cheating horsemen to tote vulnerabilities to outrageous takeout...this sport should have been dead and buried a long time ago.

It still can be saved...but not by folks who think the problem isn't all that serious.
You have the power to walk away and never bet again.

OTOH, the other posters here have come to grips that life is not perfect and that the entertainment factor is worthwhile. As I said before, the majority of horseplayers realize the downsides, yet agree to pursue their pleasure. Where I come in is to give them that choice, and to fight the banning crowd with the aggressiveness that they pose.

[Grits]

Thank you, delawaretrainer, for taking the time to explain a complex matter and removing much of the mystery. If we only had to rely upon the linked materials posted by passionate reformers, then we would be getting only a fraction of the details.

Bravo, and please keep up the hard work. Too many industry people are unnecessarily wilting under fire, and trying to appease the unappeasible.

I may be a reformer, but I'm a reformer that's sharp enough to make sure I'm providing links to DVM reports and data from vet school studies on the affects of thyroxine/thyroid concerns in HORSES, those that the discussion has related to.

Rather than providing links that pertain to thyroxine/thyroid concerns and questionable doping in HUMANS. In this case, 15 elite Olympic athletes, the practice, and the opinion of one physician in North America.

Yep. Bravo. But maybe try reading the links (details) before hitting submit. Its always good when troops call for backup. :lol:

Where I come in is to give them that choice, and to fight the banning crowd with the aggressiveness that they pose.

So far, you've missed a lot of detail, counselor. So for this reason, my money? I wouldn't have you on retainer.

[PaceAdvantage]

You have the power to walk away and never bet again.

OTOH, the other posters here have come to grips that life is not perfect and that the entertainment factor is worthwhile. As I said before, the majority of horseplayers realize the downsides, yet agree to pursue their pleasure. Where I come in is to give them that choice, and to fight the banning crowd with the aggressiveness that they pose.Nobody here is part of the banning crowd.

And more and more people ARE choosing to walk away. That's been a major problem over the past decade.

PERCEPTION when it comes to a game that allows wagering IS EVERYTHING.

Racing's PERCEPTION has always been not so great. Yet, it has persevered, I guess giving horsemen and those in charge a sense of invulnerability.

Not many people here are fans of PETA. However, they are even less fans of the current state of the game that we love. So if ANYTHING gets the industry to WAKE THE HELL UP and start taking care of itself (or even gets some other entity/gov't to take care of it for them), it is a GOOD THING, even if it comes in the form of PETA.

[thaskalos]

The Jockey Club came into existence in early 1894, proposed as being an anti-dote to all of the ills of horseracing. The members themselves offered themselves as the answer to all of the critics inside and outside of the sport. Their strategy was to parry the legal and political onslaught, and to appease where they could. They argued that a central authority could seize the reins, clean up the mess, while fending off the actual haters and sworn enemies.

Well, history proved the folly of that approach. Their foes were jihadists and were relentless. Even though assuming more powers than any czar, the sport was abolished in their region only 14 years later. It took years of backtracking, hard labor, and sensible & measured regulation by individual states to reverse their ignominious failure and to defeat those who sought instant purity (where it never exists anyway).

So here we are in 2014, facing even lesser issues, but dealing with those portraying them as cataclysmic. And retracing the same pathetic steps of some Neville Chamberlain-type ancestors who thought they had all the answers, too.

I have approached this sport with eyes-wide-open for over 40 years, knowing full well that cheaters abound. But also with the sophistication that chasing utopia is a fool's errand.

You cannot, in good faith, acknowledge that "cheaters abound" in this game...while also supporting the view that the game is a "net positive". Where is the positive net if indeed "cheaters abound"?

This is, after all, a GAMBLING game...and we all know -- or SHOULD know -- that cheating cannot be tolerated in a gambling game. A gambling game is DIMINISHED when cheating is discovered in its midst...and either the cheating is identified and properly dealt with -- or the game eventually perishes. Horse racing is no exception.

The problem is the very thought that a gambling game can still be considered a "net positive"...even though "cheaters abound". We are somehow supposed to take comfort in the thought that "not all the trainers are cheating".

I've asked this question several times before, and I've never gotten an answer...so I'll ask it one more time:

We enter a poker room...and are informed at the door that there is some "cheating" going on there. But we are also quickly told not to worry excessively about it, because "most of the players there are honest". Would we ever consider taking a seat at one of the tables?

[clocker7]

Nobody here is part of the banning crowd.

And more and more people ARE choosing to walk away. That's been a major problem over the past decade.

PERCEPTION when it comes to a game that allows wagering IS EVERYTHING.

Racing's PERCEPTION has always been not so great. Yet, it has persevered, I guess giving horsemen and those in charge a sense of invulnerability.

Not many people here are fans of PETA. However, they are even less fans of the current state of the game that we love. So if ANYTHING gets the industry to WAKE THE HELL UP and start taking care of itself (or even gets some other entity/gov't to take care of it for them), it is a GOOD THING, even if it comes in the form of PETA.
No, perception is not reality. History is full of injustices conducted in the name of righteousness that were later debunked.

I'm a relative new poster who has gone through various parts of this forum, and has been struck by the brilliance of quite a few other posters. It's my conclusion that these smart people are aware of the shortcomings of the sport, yet have kept things in perspective. The consensus seems to be considerably different from your own. They are not oblivious by a longshot; no, they are not ready to surrender to those that get overly emotional about animal welfare issues.

[Saratoga_Mike]

.

Not many people here are fans of PETA. However, they are even less fans of the current state of the game that we love. So if ANYTHING gets the industry to WAKE THE HELL UP and start taking care of itself (or even gets some other entity/gov't to take care of it for them), it is a GOOD THING, even if it comes in the form of PETA.

How could anyone disagree with this statement? But they will!

[PaceAdvantage]

No, perception is not reality. History is full of injustices conducted in the name of righteousness that was later debunked.

I'm a relative new poster who has gone through various parts of this forum, and has been struck by the brilliance of quite a few other posters. It's my conclusion that these smart people are aware of the shortcomings of the sport, yet have kept things in perspective. The consensus seems to be considerably different from your own. They are not oblivious by a longshot; no, they are not ready to surrender to those that get overly emotional about animal welfare issues.For some reason, you are not reading what I am actually writing, for if you were, you would not be writing these things to me in your reply quoted above. You're way off on your perception of me, which in this case, is certainly not reality.

And how can you dismiss the notion that perception IS reality when it comes to a gambling game? If most of the people think cheating is happening, even if it isn't, you have a problem you must deal with.

In this particular case, BOTH the perception (of most) AND the reality (of all, whether they know it or not), when it comes to racing, is that cheating is happening.

[cj]

Not overstating it at all. We now see all sorts of people coming out and telling it like it is on the backside. Codes of silence abound. Nobody rats anyone out. So you can just imagine what is allowed to go on undetected.

If you can get away with it, and there is no test for it, a LOT of trainers WILL use it...

You have relatively new trainers obtaining ungodly hit rates....it's obscene. It's anarchy as much as it is anything else.

The state is helpless to stop it. The racing office doesn't care as long as the entry box fills. And stewards are often times a joke.

The bullshit that bettors have had to put up with...from cheating horsemen to tote vulnerabilities to outrageous takeout...this sport should have been dead and buried a long time ago.

It still can be saved...but not by folks who think the problem isn't all that serious.

Well said PA.

[clocker7]

For some reason, you are not reading what I am actually writing, for if you were, you would not be writing these things to me in your reply quoted above. You're way off on your perception of me, which in this case, is certainly not reality.

And how can you dismiss the notion that perception IS reality when it comes to a gambling game? If most of the people think cheating is happening, even if it isn't, you have a problem you must deal with.

In this particular case, BOTH the perception (of most) AND the reality (of all, whether they know it or not), when it comes to racing, is that cheating is happening.
Let's get real. Cheating happens and we are adults, deal with it. Come to grips with that reality, and you can prosper. I have been around the block a few times.

"Reform" in horse racing has been going on for centuries, but here we are agonizing about the existence of cheaters? Welcome to Life101.

My philosophy: do what you can reasonably do, but do not crawl under the bed and suck your thumb about the injustices of life. And, whatever you do, don't ally yourself with the enemies of your passion in the false pursuit of perfecting it. It. Won't. Happen. And you might kill your favorite thing in the process.

[thaskalos]

Let's get real. Cheating happens and we are adults, deal with it. Come to grips with that reality, and you can prosper. I have been around the block a few times.

"Reform" in horse racing has been going on for centuries, but here we are agonizing about the existence of cheaters? Welcome to Life101.

My philosophy: do what you can reasonably do, but do not crawl under the bed and suck your thumb about the injustices of life. And, whatever you do, don't ally yourself with the enemies of your passion in the false pursuit of perfecting it. It. Won't. Happen. And you might kill your favorite thing in the process.

When you say "cheating happens and we are adults, deal with it"...you must mean, "overlook it", right? You've come to the wrong place, pal. This here is no group of "entertainment junkies"...who are so enthralled with their "passion" that they would embrace it even if it laughed at them.

And it isn't WE who are "killing" our favorite thing; our favorite thing is on the verge of "suicide".

[Saratoga_Mike]

My philosophy: do what you can reasonably do, but do not crawl under the bed and suck your thumb about the injustices of life. And, whatever you do, don't ally yourself with the enemies of your passion in the false pursuit of perfecting it. It. Won't. Happen. And you might kill your favorite thing in the process.

Who said anything about "allying" with PETA? How about not ignoring their video?

Whatever you do, don't stick your head in the sand!

[clocker7]

When you say "cheating happens and we are adults, deal with it"...you must mean, "overlook it", right? You've come to the wrong place, pal. This here is no group of "entertainment junkies"...who are so enthralled with their "passion" that they would embrace it even if it laughed at them.

And it isn't WE who are "killing" our favorite thing; our favorite thing is on the verge of "suicide".
I invited a poster upthread to state whether the present condition of horse racing was either a net positive or a net negative. As I suspected, some would be choking on on the answer.

To me, it is a come-to-Jesus moment that should be honestly confronted. I don't understand the reluctance of those that profess to be fans. :)

[thaskalos]

I invited a poster upthread to state whether the present condition of horse racing was either a net positive or a net negative. As I suspected, some would be choking on on the answer.

To me, it is a come-to-Jesus moment that should be honestly confronted. I don't understand the reluctance of those that profess to be fans. :)

Well...I provided my answer a little while ago -- and I didn't receive a response either. :)

[taxicab]

Let's get real. Cheating happens and we are adults, deal with it. Come to grips with that reality, and you can prosper. I have been around the block a few times.

"Reform" in horse racing has been going on for centuries, but here we are agonizing about the existence of cheaters? Welcome to Life101.

My philosophy: do what you can reasonably do, but do not crawl under the bed and suck your thumb about the injustices of life. And, whatever you do, don't ally yourself with the enemies of your passion in the false pursuit of perfecting it. It. Won't. Happen. And you might kill your favorite thing in the process.

Thanks for your insight Rosie Ruiz....

[PaceAdvantage]

I invited a poster upthread to state whether the present condition of horse racing was either a net positive or a net negative. The answer is so obvious, the question does not need to be asked.

The present condition of horse racing, from a bettor's perspective, is net negative (even if the ROI remains positive). Without a doubt.

[clocker7]

Well...I provided my answer a little while ago -- and I didn't receive a response either. :)
Here, I bequeath my tinkerbell wand to make everything hunky dory, and to make life seamless. :D

Click your ruby shoes together and tomorrow will be perfect ... wait a minute, I messed up your fantasies.

[thaskalos]

Here, I bequeath my tinkerbell wand to make everything hunky dory, and to make life seamless. :D

Click your ruby shoes together and tomorrow will be perfect ... wait a minute, I messed up your fantasies.
I had a hunch you couldn't be taken seriously. :ThmbUp:

[Grits]

We see.. you do carry your scepter, or did you term it your "wand", wherever you roam.

I'm sorry, not anyone has said anything about perfection. We're talking about--cheating. And according to Webster, there's a big difference between the two words--perfection and cheating--the situation/circumstance that evolves with them. ... Unfortunate trolling.

[cj]

The answer is so obvious, the question does not need to be asked.

The present condition of horse racing, from a bettor's perspective, is net negative (even if the ROI remains positive). Without a doubt.

I thought the answer was obvious too. Look at the state of the game right now. It is in disarray.

[Delawaretrainer]

Just so there isn't misunderstanding, let me clarify.

Most horse racing participants are going about their business. They are in the majority. However, a noisy minority are very aggressive, and are trying to paint a picture for the public that is misleading. When I said "Too many people ..." that is what I meant.

But my main point was to congratulate delawaretrainer for patiently schooling those with less knowledge, but who are acting like they represent a greater sector than actually exists.
Thanks!

[Delawaretrainer]

The backside, horsemen - owners and trainers - brought this all upon themselves. They get exactly whatever is coming to them.

If that means more regulation and more hassle and more hoops to jump through in the process, then too bad. This is what you get for being so damn cavalier throughout all these years, thinking you all run the show and you can basically get away with whatever you want.

The chickens are going to come home to roost one of these days...and it's not going to be pretty. But just remember, no horse player ever shot up a horse with questionable meds, and no horse player ever sold a horse to the killers.

Wow, I am a horseman and I take offense to this. I am not part of the problem yet you say horseman. I don't dump horses, give thyro l or do any of the things that are the real issues of the peta tape.

I've really disappointed that an administrator of a forum I enjoy would do that.

Do you know that thoroughbred horseman were part of the uniform medication reform that seriously curtails even therapeutic medication? The standardbred horseman have not accepted due to breed specific issues though. You probably don't know anything about this. We have taken all changes in stride, steroid regulation, third party LASIx administration, removal of adjunct bleeder medication, pre race exams, virtual elimination of clenbuterol, etc etc etc. and you know what? Nobody complained. As long as regulators create a level playing field, we want to play by the rules without getting our butts kicked by others doing things.. There are a couple guys at each track that people think are using meds not detectable post race. What can I do about it? Whine like a sore loser? Stop blaming horseman, I can't control other people

[cj]

Wow, I am a horseman and I take offense to this. I am not part of the problem yet you say horseman. I don't dump horses, give thyro l or do any of the things that are the real issues of the peta tape.

I've really disappointed that an administrator of a forum I enjoy would do that.

Do you know that thoroughbred horseman were part of the uniform medication reform that seriously curtails even therapeutic medication? The standardbred horseman have not accepted due to breed specific issues though. You probably don't know anything about this. We have taken all changes in stride, steroid regulation, third party LASIx administration, removal of adjunct bleeder medication, pre race exams, virtual elimination of clenbuterol, etc etc etc. and you know what? Nobody complained. As long as regulators create a level playing field, we want to play by the rules without getting our butts kicked by others doing things.. There are a couple guys at each track that people think are using meds not detectable post race. What can I do about it? Whine like a sore loser? Stop blaming horseman, I can't control other people

Do you train at Delaware Park, home of the 40% trainer? I don't think there is a bettor alive that thinks things going on there are on the up and up. I'm certainly not indicting you personally. I have no idea what you do and don't do. But in life you will always be lumped in with your peers when it comes to work.

[Stillriledup]

Wow, I am a horseman and I take offense to this. I am not part of the problem yet you say horseman. I don't dump horses, give thyro l or do any of the things that are the real issues of the peta tape.

I've really disappointed that an administrator of a forum I enjoy would do that.

Do you know that thoroughbred horseman were part of the uniform medication reform that seriously curtails even therapeutic medication? The standardbred horseman have not accepted due to breed specific issues though. You probably don't know anything about this. We have taken all changes in stride, steroid regulation, third party LASIx administration, removal of adjunct bleeder medication, pre race exams, virtual elimination of clenbuterol, etc etc etc. and you know what? Nobody complained. As long as regulators create a level playing field, we want to play by the rules without getting our butts kicked by others doing things.. There are a couple guys at each track that people think are using meds not detectable post race. What can I do about it? Whine like a sore loser? Stop blaming horseman, I can't control other people

Do you think that if a trainer who cheats with meds not detectable or does other reprehensible things to their horses to gain an edge, and they were a member of Pace Advantage and posting in this thread, do you think they would raise their hand and say "im guilty"? Or would they say "not me"?

No trainer that posts on here would ever admit they are part of the problem, but someone must be part of the problem, right? Now, not the ENTIRE problem, but at least a very small part of it.

What's the saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem?

[Delawaretrainer]

I may be a reformer, but I'm a reformer that's sharp enough to make sure I'm providing links to DVM reports and data from vet school studies on the affects of thyroxine/thyroid concerns in HORSES, those that the discussion has related to.

Rather than providing links that pertain to thyroxine/thyroid concerns and questionable doping in HUMANS. In this case, 15 elite Olympic athletes, the practice, and the opinion of one physician in North America.

Yep. Bravo. But maybe try reading the links (details) before hitting submit. Its always good when troops call for backup. :lol:



So far, you've missed a lot of detail, counselor. So for this reason, my money? I wouldn't have you on retainer.

You make ZERO sense. Do you not get that I am addressing the challenges of regulating this. What the heck is your point? All I see is a bunch of over dramatic jibberish. What is the solution? Be specific. If you were writing the rules what would the rule be and how would they execute it? How would they quantify things post race to prove wrongdoing? I guarantee this has been talked about. My point in humans is that clearly in that article it is being used for performance enhancement and between physicians the diagnosis of hypothyroid is debatable and there is much more research in humans than horses.

[Delawaretrainer]

Nobody is chasing utopia.

But just the same, the acceptance of anarchy won't be tolerated for very much longer.

Clearly you have not been exposed to just how regulated horseracing is. Do you know that I can be drug or alcohol tested at any time by the commission. And I'm not even in the race. Horses are tested prerace for blood gas randomly. I mean you're on the way up to post and a vet flies out of the test barn and pulls blood. People follow your horse from the race to the test barn. Post race tests can be run for an infinite number of substances. My barn can be searched at any time and so can my car or trailer. This happens all the time. Human athletes can do a lot of things that I would be banned for.

[Saratoga_Mike]

DT, the answer on thyroxine (sp?) abuse/overuse is easy.

You require the state vet to personally sign off on its use, in cases that actually merit its use (the criteria for usage should be determined by a group of objective vets - I'd probably select vets from top equine vet schools). There, problem solved.

[Delawaretrainer]

:1: The link you provide makes it seem that's exactly what they are doing...enhancing rather than normalizing. This Doc Brown sees abnormality where other doctors do not.

And as for not every trainer has crawled out from under a rock to hang a shingle...true...but there seem to be an awful lot who have, especially in the last 20 years or so...

You know what they say...it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch...how many bad apples are we up to now in the sport of racing? :eek:

Well please don't lump us all in with the bad apples. Remember, they are essentially stealing money from honest horseman. For every one of them there are hundreds of us. But we must have proof. We will not get this without out of competition testing.

Also, I have watched trainers with 30%+ and when I pid attention realized they had a constant stream of horses coming from tough tracks to cheap tracks. They put them in for the same price and get claimed. So we have to be careful who we point fingers at

[Delawaretrainer]

Do you think that if a trainer who cheats with meds not detectable or does other reprehensible things to their horses to gain an edge, and they were a member of Pace Advantage and posting in this thread, do you think they would raise their hand and say "im guilty"? Or would they say "not me"?

No trainer that posts on here would ever admit they are part of the problem, but someone must be part of the problem, right? Now, not the ENTIRE problem, but at least a very small part of it.

What's the saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem?
Are you calling me a cheater?

[Delawaretrainer]

DT, the answer on thyroxine (sp?) abuse/overuse is easy.

You require the state vet to personally sign off on its use, in cases that actually merit its use (the criteria for usage should be determined by a group of objective vets - I'd probably select vets from top equine vet schools). There, problem solved.

I have offered this as a solution. It could only be enforced by barn search. Although this would not provide a solution to the many horses that ship in to race from training centers like fair hill, etc. so basically you are creating advantages to those off site that run against our horses.

[Delawaretrainer]

Do you train at Delaware Park, home of the 40% trainer? I don't think there is a bettor alive that thinks things going on there are on the up and up. I'm certainly not indicting you personally. I have no idea what you do and don't do. But in life you will always be lumped in with your peers when it comes to work.

No, in life an intelligent person would not judge me based on another's actions.

Delaware Park is no different than other places with super trainers. They can only equalize things with out of competition testing. Think about lance Armstrong. Past the tests at the race no problem. And FYI Delaware park did random epo testing out of competition the last few years. I'm not aware of anyone else doing this.

[Grits]

Do you train at Delaware Park, home of the 40% trainer? I don't think there is a bettor alive that thinks things going on there are on the up and up. I'm certainly not indicting you personally. I have no idea what you do and don't do. But in life you will always be lumped in with your peers when it comes to work.

Recall this one of last August?

http://www.drf.com/news/delaware-park-bans-trainer-two-years

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/delaware-stewards-give-roberson-two-year-ban-for-needles/

Of particular note, the comment section following Paulick's piece. Similarities of recent days.

[Delawaretrainer]

I think that racing is soooooo much cleaner than it ever was. But access to social media makes that fact easy to skew. Plus, penalties are more common and the information is more available to the public. Ever think that these penalties are indications of a sport doing well in enforcement? Steroids used to be legal , prerace exams weren't done, testing was done by swab, I mean the testing area is still called the spit box. Ever see that documentary on the horse who was dq'd from the derby. Testing was a clusterf$&@. Now they can find things in samples less than picograms. A picograms is like one second in 32 years.

I mean racing was really popular when the dirtiest guys were around. I am not saying there is no work to be done. Sometimes these guys get ahead of regulators. They are not psychic. Sometimes money is an issue. Some of the next steps are very expensive . Casinos and corporate consolidation of racetracks mean that no one wants to put money into racing. Who pays for it? These are just a few if the things going on .

[Saratoga_Mike]

I have offered this as a solution. It could only be enforced by barn search. Although this would not provide a solution to the many horses that ship in to race from training centers like fair hill, etc. so basically you are creating advantages to those off site that run against our horses.

I was wondering about this - is Thyroxine a biologic like EPO where it would be impossible to develop a test for Thyroxine itself? With EPO they came up with an anti-body test, I believe. I wonder if that would work here? Also, wouldn't high levels of Thyroxine show up on simple Thyroid test?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think that racing is soooooo much cleaner than it ever was. But access to social media makes that fact easy to skew. Plus, penalties are more common and the information is more available to the public. Ever think that these penalties are indications of a sport doing well in enforcement? Steroids used to be legal , prerace exams weren't done, testing was done by swab, I mean the testing area is still called the spit box. Ever see that documentary on the horse who was dq'd from the derby. Testing was a clusterf$&@. Now they can find things in samples less than picograms. A picograms is like one second in 32 years.

.

How many trainers in the 1970s won (with large numbers) at a 25% to 30% annually?

Testing may be more advanced, but so are the chemists.

[Delawaretrainer]

Recall this one of last August?

http://www.drf.com/news/delaware-park-bans-trainer-two-years

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/delaware-stewards-give-roberson-two-year-ban-for-needles/

Of particular note, the comment section following Paulick's piece. Similarities of recent days.

Yes, they caught him . The commission searched him and took a hard stance. What's your point? Doesn't sound like a free for all to me when the guy gets two years. The system did its job here. So where is all the sweeping under the rug everyone thinks is going on. He is an old guy that was doing things like back in the day to save money . Plus he had some compounded drugs that do nothing but cost you money .

[cj]

Yes, they caught him . The commission searched him and took a hard stance. What's your point? Doesn't sound like a free for all to me when the guy gets two years. The system did its job here. So where is all the sweeping under the rug everyone thinks is going on. He is an old guy that was doing things like back in the day to save money . Plus he had some compounded drugs that do nothing but cost you money .

That is the frustrating thing. They catch him, but can't catch the guys that are really cheating, the 35-40% guys.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes, they caught him . The commission searched him and took a hard stance. What's your point? Doesn't sound like a free for all to me when the guy gets two years. The system did its job here. So where is all the sweeping under the rug everyone thinks is going on. He is an old guy that was doing things like back in the day to save money . Plus he had some compounded drugs that do nothing but cost you money .

He's a lifetime 14% trainer and nothing special over the past few yrs either.
Obviously he should have been suspended for at least two yrs, but he isn't the main problem in the midatlantic. Look at the large-scale outfits winning at 25%+. Look at the large-scale outfits where perfectly competent trainers claim from them, and the claimed horses invariably fall apart.

[thaskalos]

I know this much for a fact:

If I were an "honest" trainer, and I was watching these cheating trainers taking food out of my kids' mouths...then I would be a lot more vocal about it than today's honest trainers appear to be.

The only outrage that I can see is exhibited by the horseplayers...and that seems very curious to me.

[rastajenk]

It will never be clean enough to satisfy the reformers. I mentioned the problem with TCO2 testing a few pages back, but I must be on everyone's ignore. There was a problem of perception with milkshaking several years ago, procedures were adopted to combat that perception. Did that bring back gamblers? I doubt it. The reformers moved on to steroids, and they were banned. Did that response bring back the gamblers? I doubt it. There are calls for more testing, more surveillance, more everything, will they bring back the gamblers? No, the reformers will move on to the next bad perception.

I applaud clocker7 and Delawaretrainer for maintaining their civility in this thread, and for accurately portraying what is going on. Yes, there is chasing Utopia going on, and social media speeds up the process. Don't ever think that PETA is a useful tool for engineering change in racing. In reality, its sympathizers are the useful tools in an effort to get rid of racing entirely.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I applaud clocker7 and Delawaretrainer for maintaining their civility in this thread, and for accurately portraying what is going on. Yes, there is chasing Utopia going on, and social media speeds up the process. Don't ever think that PETA is a useful tool for engineering change in racing. In reality, its sympathizers are the useful tools in an effort to get rid of racing entirely.

My bet is Thyroxine becomes a highly regulated substance in the next yr. If that results from the PETA video, that was useful. Period. Whether it brings gamblers back or not.

[rastajenk]

Well, that would be pretty quick action for bureaucracies that don't usually move fast. If you're right, it's more likely for immediate p.r. value than anything based on good vet science.

[Saratoga_Mike]

1) Well, that would be pretty quick action for bureaucracies that don't usually move fast. If you're right, 2) it's more likely for immediate p.r. value than anything based on good vet science.

1) This video is much worse than BB receiving Winstrol, and regulators acted pretty swiftly after that (not sure I even agreed with them on that one).

2) Good vet science? Have any Baffert horses just dropped dead since he stopped using the substance? Maybe they have and I missed it. If you're a vet, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[Stillriledup]

1) This video is much worse than BB receiving Winstrol, and regulators acted pretty swiftly after that (not sure I even agreed with them on that one).

2) Good vet science? Have any Baffert horses just dropped dead since he stopped using the substance? Maybe they have and I missed it. If you're a vet, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Good points. I havent heard about any Baffert sudden deaths in recent times, but you know, they "cleared" him of any wrongdoing, didnt even suspend him for incompetence (jocks routinely get 3 days for extremely minor incompetence with no malice attached, but Baffert got 0 days for extreme negligence even if you make the case it wasnt done on purpose).

[rastajenk]

No, of course I'm not a vet, I'm merely saying, along the lines of Deltrainer's comments earlier, that you can't just rush in, pick a number that's above normal, and start punishing people for it. It's just not that simple.

[Saratoga_Mike]

No, of course I'm not a vet, I'm merely saying, along the lines of Deltrainer's comments earlier, that you can't just rush in, pick a number that's above normal, and start punishing people for it. It's just not that simple.

I didn't know you weren't a vet - I thought it was possible.

Find the top equine professors (who have also practiced) at Cornell, Penn and Ky, and let them determine thresholds. Why is that difficult? They argue, debate and come to a consensus on thresholds.

[rastajenk]

Which is what has been done with TCO2 for over a decade, and to what end? To address an performance-enhancing perception that is unverifiable, not to mention uncommon.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Which is what has been done with TCO2 for over a decade, and to what end? To address an performance-enhancing perception that is unverifiable, not to mention uncommon.

Sorry, we're talking about two different things. My first goal is to prevent otherwise perfectly healthy horses from dropping dead. I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to your point (i.e., a cleaner sport won't necessarily improve handle). But I don't think TCO2 testing proves anything - too many more illegal, undetectable substances (much more powerful than baking soda) have emerged over the past 10 yrs.

To your point, if you read "Crazy Good," a comprehensive work on the great harness horse, Dan Patch, you'll find drugging of harness horses in the early 1900s. Did it hurt the popularity of the sport? Nope. Harness racing was the most or the second most popular sport in the country at the time.

[clocker7]

I thought the answer was obvious too. Look at the state of the game right now. It is in disarray.
Attributing the state of disarray to activity on the backside is delusional.

The vast majority of older trackgoers can tell you why the sport has slid since its heyday. Ask them. I witnessed it while it was underway. To say that its is mainly struggling to due to cheating is just plain wacky.

[Stillriledup]

Attributing the state of disarray to activity on the backside is delusional.

The vast majority of older trackgoers can tell you why the sport has slid since its heyday. Ask them. I witnessed it while it was underway. To say that its is mainly struggling to due to cheating is just plain wacky.

But if you ask those same horseplayers why they lose, they'll tell you "its the cheating, if the races were honest, i would win"

The toughest obstacle that "racing" has to overcome is that they have to convince people to keep coming back, even though they're essentially taking 20 cents out of every dollar that public wagers. So, maybe the idea that there is cheating works out well, in some sort of odd way, for the industry, it gives players the hope that they're not really losing fair and square, they're losing because of something that might be fixed one day....and when it DOES get fixed *wink wink* they'll finally be able to win....but in reality, the 20% takeout and their own lack of handicapping/betting skills is why people lose, not the drugs or cheating.

[Beachbabe]

But if you ask those same horseplayers why they lose, they'll tell you "its the cheating, if the races were honest, i would win"

The toughest obstacle that "racing" has to overcome is that they have to convince people to keep coming back, even though they're essentially taking 20 cents out of every dollar that public wagers. So, maybe the idea that there is cheating works out well, in some sort of odd way, for the industry, it gives players the hope that they're not really losing fair and square, they're losing because of something that might be fixed one day....and when it DOES get fixed *wink wink* they'll finally be able to win....but in reality, the 20% takeout and their own lack of handicapping/betting skills is why people lose, not the drugs or cheating.

I was going to make a remark about this post, but it's bizarre in so many ways, I'm speechless.

[clocker7]

But if you ask those same horseplayers why they lose, they'll tell you "its the cheating, if the races were honest, i would win"

The toughest obstacle that "racing" has to overcome is that they have to convince people to keep coming back, even though they're essentially taking 20 cents out of every dollar that public wagers. So, maybe the idea that there is cheating works out well, in some sort of odd way, for the industry, it gives players the hope that they're not really losing fair and square, they're losing because of something that might be fixed one day....and when it DOES get fixed *wink wink* they'll finally be able to win....but in reality, the 20% takeout and their own lack of handicapping/betting skills is why people lose, not the drugs or cheating.
I've been around since the days of a horse getting DQed from the Kentucky Derby for breaking the drug rules. Trust me, the grandstands were still filled with young guys like me who took that into consideration, yet recognized that the sport was fun. Hypothetically beating it was secondary to everything else about the experience.

Now, after state lotteries, Indian casinos, cardrooms, the World Series of Poker, and every other bona fide reason for its decline, there are those who are professing that racing will arise if it gets rid of A or B (substitute your favorite trainer, jockey,veterinarian, or any PETA gripe.) Wow, just wow.

I feel that I am on solid ground--and in the vast majority--when saying that those expectations are so unreasonable that they are in outer space. If person cannot understand or recognize the actual threats to the game, then it is impossible to rationally discuss. For every 20- or 30-something that claims to see the light, there are guys who have been in the trenches and who actually have a clue.

[Stillriledup]

I was going to make a remark about this post, but it's bizarre in so many ways, I'm speechless.

If you are speechless and have nothing to add, why even respond in the first place?

[Stillriledup]

I've been around since the days of a horse getting DQed from the Kentucky Derby for breaking the drug rules. Trust me, the grandstands were still filled with young guys like me who took that into consideration, yet recognized that the sport was fun. Hypothetically beating it was secondary to everything else about the experience.

Now, after state lotteries, Indian casinos, cardrooms, the World Series of Poker, and every other bona fide reason for its decline, there are those who are professing that racing will arise if it gets rid of A or B (substitute your favorite trainer, jockey,veterinarian, or any PETA gripe.) Wow, just wow.

I feel that I am on solid ground--and in the vast majority--when saying that those expectations are so unreasonable that they are in outer space. If person cannot understand or recognize the actual threats to the game, then it is impossible to rationally discuss. For every 20- or 30-something that claims to see the light, there are guys who have been in the trenches who actually have a clue.

Glad you're on board Clocker, i enjoy reading what you're writing.

Maybe kicking out a cheating trainer won't actually help the game, but how can it hurt to get rid of the cheats?

[clocker7]

Glad you're on board Clocker, i enjoy reading what you're writing.

Maybe kicking out a cheating trainer won't actually help the game, but how can it hurt to get rid of the cheats?
It doesn't. But has to be done on the up-and-up, following reasonable regulations and using due process, while having a practical worldview about the situation.

In "real life," actual dangerous criminals are let out into the general population in a catch-and-release process that recognizes that going Saudi on thieves is not acceptable to the average American. Why something as societally-marginal as horse racing is being subjected to a more stringent standard escapes me.

[taxicab]

It will never be clean enough to satisfy the reformers. I mentioned the problem with TCO2 testing a few pages back, but I must be on everyone's ignore. There was a problem of perception with milkshaking several years ago, procedures were adopted to combat that perception. Did that bring back gamblers? I doubt it. The reformers moved on to steroids, and they were banned. Did that response bring back the gamblers? I doubt it. There are calls for more testing, more surveillance, more everything, will they bring back the gamblers? No, the reformers will move on to the next bad perception.

I applaud clocker7 and Delawaretrainer for maintaining their civility in this thread, and for accurately portraying what is going on. Yes, there is chasing Utopia going on, and social media speeds up the process. Don't ever think that PETA is a useful tool for engineering change in racing. In reality, its sympathizers are the useful tools in an effort to get rid of racing entirely.


Way off base.
There is no problem with perception.
And what do the gamblers have to do with milkshaking,steroids,more testing,more surveillance ?
All of what was mentioned above was brought on because some trainers cheat.

There is no problem with milkshaking perception,milkshaking is a way to cheat.
It's a performance enhancer,and some trainers will milkshake their horse to take an edge.
The reason there is milkshake testing is simple....If you don't test for it some trainers will do it.
It has nothing to do with a "bad perception".

Steroids were eliminated because horses bodies couldn't take all of the crap that was being used on them and they were breaking down.
Horse safety is why steroids were banned.
Gamblers and perception have nothing to do with it.

More surveillance and testing is in place because......well everybody knows.

I have a question....
When a horse is injected and/or milkshaked, who does it ?
Not the gambler.

[Stillriledup]

It doesn't. But has to be done on the up-and-up, following reasonable regulations and using due process, while having a practical worldview about the situation.

In "real life," actual dangerous criminals are let out into the general population in a catch-and-release process that recognizes that going Saudi on thieves is not acceptable to the average American. Why something as societally-marginal as horse racing is being subjected to a more stringent standard escapes me.

Jeff Gural just kicks you out if he thinks you are bad for perception..and its worked well for him....you have harness trainers like Lou Pena who went thru the court system, lawyered up and fought the charges and some tracks let him back because they didnt want to spend money battling in court when all they care about is slots profits anyway, why spend slots profits defending a lawsuit from a harness guy?

As a bettor who would prefer clean races, i have to admit i'm not as 'up and up' as you are...if a trainer 'wins too much' i would prefer him not being around or at least not being in the races i'm trying to bet.

As far as the "stringent standard" goes, racing isnt jailing the offenders, they're just kicking them out.....so, essentially, if you cheat, you can look for another line of work.

Racing, for the most part, handles problems "in house" and its very rare if a trainer or jock goes to jail for breaking a "racing rule" even though they could theoretically also be breaking a real life law.

[taxicab]

It doesn't. But has to be done on the up-and-up, following reasonable regulations and using due process, while having a practical worldview about the situation.

In "real life," actual dangerous criminals are let out into the general population in a catch-and-release process that recognizes that going Saudi on thieves is not acceptable to the average American. Why something as societally-marginal as horse racing is being subjected to a more stringent standard escapes me.


Way off base part two.
Because people gambling their hard earned money expect a fair shake.
That's why the game has stringent standards.
What does your working in of "real life criminals" to the discussion have to do with the price of tea in China ?
Apples and Oranges.
It's a diversionary tactic.
Cheating is cheating no matter where it's done.
And yes,that does include horse racing.

[rastajenk]

There is no problem with milkshaking perception,milkshaking is a way to cheat.
I could disagree with all of your post; I'll just quote this and say, prove it.

[taxicab]

I could disagree with all of your post; I'll just quote this and say, prove it.

Prove it ????
That's what you got ?
Prove what ?
Milkshaking is a performance enhancer.

[rastajenk]

Theoretically, yes. But the effects are impossible to measure. It's much more of an animal abuse issue, ramming a tube down the gullet and ingesting foreign elements in a win-at-all-costs strategy. It might make a potential fifth-place finisher nose out something else to affect a superfecta once in a thousand races; but when there are so many other on-the-track reasons why the same result may have occurred, it's hard to peg the integrity of the sport and its overseers on a single issue of this type. Over and over again. With different drugs, different forms of abuse, different forms of excuses for losing in a game of inches.

[thaskalos]

Theoretically, yes. But the effects are impossible to measure. It's much more of an animal abuse issue, ramming a tube down the gullet and ingesting foreign elements in a win-at-all-costs strategy. It might make a potential fifth-place finisher nose out something else to affect a superfecta once in a thousand races; but when there are so many other on-the-track reasons why the same result may have occurred, it's hard to peg the integrity of the sport and its overseers on a single issue of this type. Over and over again. With different drugs, different forms of abuse, different forms of excuses for losing in a game of inches.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/alkalinization-lasix-and-milkshaking-a-veterinarians-view/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

[rastajenk]

That was carefully worded to reveal nothing.

[thaskalos]

That was carefully worded to reveal nothing.

OK... :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

I think that racing is soooooo much cleaner than it ever was. But access to social media makes that fact easy to skew. Plus, penalties are more common and the information is more available to the public. Ever think that these penalties are indications of a sport doing well in enforcement? Steroids used to be legal , prerace exams weren't done, testing was done by swab, I mean the testing area is still called the spit box. Ever see that documentary on the horse who was dq'd from the derby. Testing was a clusterf$&@. Now they can find things in samples less than picograms. A picograms is like one second in 32 years.

I mean racing was really popular when the dirtiest guys were around. I am not saying there is no work to be done. Sometimes these guys get ahead of regulators. They are not psychic. Sometimes money is an issue. Some of the next steps are very expensive . Casinos and corporate consolidation of racetracks mean that no one wants to put money into racing. Who pays for it? These are just a few if the things going on .You're right Del. Everything is peachy. Racing is THRIVING. The sport has no image problems, and perception by the general public means nothing.

Keep on turning a blind eye to your fellow trainers who are cheating, and accept it as "business as usual."

Nothing to see here...move along, you whiny, dirty, losing, compulsive gamblers... :rolleyes:

[clocker7]

You're right Del. Everything is peachy. Racing is THRIVING. The sport has no image problems, and perception by the general public means nothing.

Keep on turning a blind eye to your fellow trainers who are cheating, and accept it as "business as usual."

Nothing to see here...move along, you whiny, dirty, losing, compulsive gamblers... :rolleyes:
That's not what anyone is saying ... c'mon, you are better than that. I'd bet that there isn't a horse racing historian alive that would contest that protection, monitoring and testing of horses have taken cosmic leaps since the days of doping or intensive mob participation at the tracks. The sport always has had its challenges, and it does a far better job of policing now than ever.

Here's what I sense, though. The same frustration that I had after I caught a burglar red-handed one time. I came home to find a stranger running out of my backyard, and followed him two blocks, saw his getaway bud meet him and speed away. But after getting a license plate number, having a perfect description, and finding a Maglight and screwdriver inside my house, and watching a cop going through the motions of looking/dusting for fingerprints, hearing the news that the guy had been contacted, lawyered up and was not going to be processed because the damages were so dinky and I almost needed a photo to make the case airtight ... nada Not in so many words, but the message of the cop to have insurance handle things was unmistakable.

So, I ate the full cost of fixing my broken door that wasn't covered by the deductible, and took satisfaction in not having anything of value stolen. And absorbed my lesson from the authorities that, even though I technically had the goods, the system lets things fall through the cracks for practical reasons, sorry about that. Sooner or later the perp might get nailed when being sloppier, but no guarantees because we've got bigger fish to fry.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's become painfully obvious that you and Del approach this subject matter from a completely different galaxy compared to most others in this thread. And never the twain shall meet.

I bow out now...have fun trying to defend the status quo.

[Delawaretrainer]

You're right Del. Everything is peachy. Racing is THRIVING. The sport has no image problems, and perception by the general public means nothing.

Keep on turning a blind eye to your fellow trainers who are cheating, and accept it as "business as usual."

Nothing to see here...move along, you whiny, dirty, losing, compulsive gamblers... :rolleyes:

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

I am not turning a blind eye to cheaters. But what the heck do you want me to do about it? It is up to the commissions. The guys currently cheating are using things that don't test. To catch them commissions are going to have to take the next step of out of competition testing. I would be happy if they did this if I was 100% confident in the handling and testing of samples. This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

[Saratoga_Mike]

This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but 1) the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where 2) masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

1) He got a false positive, so he appealed and requested a split sample? Isn't that how it works? The second sample came back clean - was he still given days? What damage was done?

2) How many trainers were suspended in this case?

Curious - are you willing to state your win rate over the past couple of years?

[Delawaretrainer]

1) He got a false positive, so he appealed and requested a split sample? Isn't that how it works? The second sample came back clean - was he still given days? What damage was done?

2) How many trainers were suspended in this case?

Curious - are you willing to state your win rate over the past couple of years?

First of all false positives should not happen clearly there was a difference in testing and/or storage. The blood is drawn at the exact same time. This stuff can't happen. Whose fault was it? Was an investigation done to figure out why? No, trainers are at the mercy of everyone from the test barn to fedex to all the people working the lab etc.

What damage was done? Ok here you go....
-reputation. Everybody finds out about it and when he was cleared everyone thought the split test was wrong.
-money was spent on lawyers
-stress
-horses (yes there were at least two) were put on the vets list for weeks and weeks while additional testing was done. Costing owners money.
-second place horse was forced to run the next condition up for two starts assuming he would become the winner and he didn't. That cost that owner thousands.
-splits are over $1000. But if the split comes back good I believe this is reimbursed

I don't think anyone was suspended in pa but only because they were lucky enough to find the source however tens of thousands were spent on lawyers and testing

I am 15%

[clocker7]

It's become painfully obvious that you and Del approach this subject matter from a completely different galaxy compared to most others in this thread. And never the twain shall meet.

I bow out now...have fun trying to defend the status quo.
Geez.

Anybody can play the exaggeration game. (Maybe you're the type who thinks that NSA snooping on Americans' phone calls is awesome because it might milk out another 5-10% of the bad guys. :cool: ) Well, sometimes the benefit isn't worth the cost, or the cure for a fever (that some here misdiagnose as cancer, imo) doesn't require chemo treatment.

Here you have an actual player like DelawareT trying to explain the many elements of a situation, the upsides and the downsides. It is very complex, not simplistic (so that frustrates those desiring the magic bullet). But that's no reason to storm off in a huff. He's doing it in a very patient way and he's literate, so why not listen and educate yourself, just from a devil's advocate debate standpoint? The last thing that I want to do is chase him away by calling him names.

Like him, I want the authorities to keep up with the cheaters, but there are practical and ethical limits to policing too. Long gone are the days where I put full trust in anything automatically ceded to the federal level, like the Jockey Club is threatening. Imo, it's not only unwise, it is naive.

[cj]

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.


This is the disconnect. You think it is heavy regulated, but most don't. And I've got news for you, the results we see favor the side that the game is not regulated well at all, not even close. It just looks like window dressing based on results.

[Robert Goren]

Geez.

Anybody can play the exaggeration game. (Maybe you're the type who thinks that NSA snooping on Americans' phone calls is awesome because it might milk out another 5-10% of the bad guys. :cool: ) Well, sometimes the benefit isn't worth the cost, or the cure for a fever (that some here misdiagnose as cancer, imo) doesn't require chemo treatment.

Here you have an actual player like DelawareT trying to explain the many elements of a situation, the upsides and the downsides. It is very complex, not simplistic (so that frustrates those desiring the magic bullet). But that's no reason to storm off in a huff. He's doing it in a very patient way and he's literate, so why not listen and educate yourself, just from a devil's advocate debate standpoint? The last thing that I want to do is chase him away by calling him names.

Like him, I want the authorities to keep up with the cheaters, but there are practical and ethical limits to policing too. Long gone are the days where I put full trust in anything automatically ceded to the federal level, like the Jockey Club is threatening. Imo, it's not only unwise, it is naive. If the local tracks and state racing commissions could handle the problems independently of other tracks and racing commissions, the problems would have been solved long ago. You are either willing to do what it takes to fix the game or you are willing to let the game disappear. The problems are national problems and they require a national solution. Of course some horsemen don't see the problems because they are too busy trying to survive in the short run to worry about the long term health of the game. But you have to search long and hard to find a bettor-only who doesn't think the game is in a lot of trouble.

[Stillriledup]

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

I am not turning a blind eye to cheaters. But what the heck do you want me to do about it? It is up to the commissions. The guys currently cheating are using things that don't test. To catch them commissions are going to have to take the next step of out of competition testing. I would be happy if they did this if I was 100% confident in the handling and testing of samples. This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

Why would you need a test? Can't you just watch the massive overnight improvements and the 35% win record and take action? Pretend you're Jeff Gural and just say "you're not wanted here". How hard would that be?

Also, why can't you and the other honest trainers boycott the entry box, if there's 98% honest trainers and 2% cheaters, i'm sure you all know, to a man, who the crooks are at your track, why not just round up everyone who is sick of the status quo and make a difference?

Also, your racing secretary can add a condition to claiming races that says "any trainer who is winning at X percent at the meet, not eligible". Have most claiming races for trainers who win 22% at the meet or less out of a minimum of 30 starts (or, something like that).

[Saratoga_Mike]

First of all false positives should not happen clearly there was a difference in testing and/or storage. The blood is drawn at the exact same time. This stuff can't happen. Whose fault was it? Was an investigation done to figure out why? No, trainers are at the mercy of everyone from the test barn to fedex to all the people working the lab etc.

What damage was done? Ok here you go....
-reputation. Everybody finds out about it and when he was cleared everyone thought the split test was wrong.
-money was spent on lawyers
-stress
-horses (yes there were at least two) were put on the vets list for weeks and weeks while additional testing was done. Costing owners money.
-second place horse was forced to run the next condition up for two starts assuming he would become the winner and he didn't. That cost that owner thousands.
-splits are over $1000. But if the split comes back good I believe this is reimbursed

I don't think anyone was suspended in pa but only because they were lucky enough to find the source however tens of thousands were spent on lawyers and testing

I am 15%

You're a 15% trainer, which puts you squarely in the non-supertrainer camp (that's a compliment). In my opinion, you should support efforts to identify and expel those trainers with an illegal edge. We aren't after you - hell we want to help you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

I am not turning a blind eye to cheaters. But what the heck do you want me to do about it? It is up to the commissions. The guys currently cheating are using things that don't test. To catch them commissions are going to have to take the next step of out of competition testing. I would be happy if they did this if I was 100% confident in the handling and testing of samples. This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.I am far from an outsider. And I know how much racing is regulated...but you know what?

IT ISN'T WORKING ANYMORE, if it ever did.

And when something isn't working, YOU FIX IT.

Don't tell me IT CAN'T BE FIXED.

Don't whine to me about how further regulation is going to INCONVENIENCE you and every other honest trainer.

WE DON'T CARE AT THIS POINT.

WE (the wagering public) ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM.

The cause of this problem is CHEATING HORSEMEN.

Take it up with them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Here you have an actual player like DelawareT trying to explain the many elements of a situation, the upsides and the downsides. It is very complex, not simplistic (so that frustrates those desiring the magic bullet). But that's no reason to storm off in a huff. He's doing it in a very patient way and he's literate, so why not listen and educate yourself, just from a devil's advocate debate standpoint? The last thing that I want to do is chase him away by calling him names.Patient? He went off on grits, accusing her of "freaking out" when in fact she did nothing of the sort.

And as for all this "explaining," a lot of us here don't need the lecture. We've been around the game in many different facets. Just because we may not be trainers doesn't mean we don't know how it works. I've been exposed to MANY areas of this industry. From the shedrow and beyond. I've groomed horses, pulled bent nails from their hooves, etc. etc.

Am I a trainer? No. Do I have experience around horses? Yes. Have I known trainers? Yes. Have I been on the backside? Yes. Do I know about the various testing processes and regulations? Yes. Do I know how easily a trainer can be set up...can innocently have a horse test positive via a screw up on timing...can have someone in his barn contaminate a horse's feed...yes, yes and yes...

I have plenty of knowledge to engage in a competent conversation on a myriad of racing topics. I'm not just some gambler sitting at home in front of my PC.

So please, you and Del, spare me the "you just don't know what you're talking about, and we're here to help you" lectures.

I VERY MUCH appreciate all of the industry insiders on this board. From the announcers to the racing office folks to the on-air personalities to the owners and trainers and others who work in the industry. I appreciate the added insight they all can provide.

But don't ever assume that the person you are debating here on the pages of PaceAdvantage doesn't know the score. That's condescending and quite offensive on almost every level.

[Delawaretrainer]

I am far from an outsider. And I know how much racing is regulated...but you know what?

IT ISN'T WORKING ANYMORE, if it ever did.

And when something isn't working, YOU FIX IT.

Don't tell me IT CAN'T BE FIXED.

Don't whine to me about how further regulation is going to INCONVENIENCE you and every other honest trainer.

WE DON'T CARE AT THIS POINT.

WE (the wagering public) ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM.

The cause of this problem is CHEATING HORSEMEN.

Take it up with them.

Who said anything about inconvenience? You just can't create violations for innocent people. Happens all the time in racing and that is just something we have to accept. It's called the trainer responsibility rule. For example, one of the biggest feed companies in the U.S. is Purina. They brag about quality control. Apparently their horse feed was contaminated with cattle steroid and a bunch of trainers got positives. Since there was so many they were able to trace it back. But a year before a got got a positive for the same thing and was put out of business. Possibly the same situation but couldn't prove it. This stuff happens all the time but you wouldn't hear about it

[PaceAdvantage]

Everyone is aware of the many risks involved with the training game prior to taking out their license...this is the game you play...and you take the rewards along with the risks...

Hell, even Bill Mott caught a positive once and was suspended...but his reputation is as above board as ever...so I wouldn't worry too much if one is indeed an honest Joe.

[Robert Fischer]

It is time for all medications, treatments, special shoeing, etc... to require a diagnosis and prescription from a veterinarian, and be electronically entered into a database, which can be referenced for future vet exams and available to owners, trainers, and horseplayers.


ALL OF IT
1.Diagnosis by the Vet of an illness or injury
2.Prescription of a certain drug or treatment that is meant to remedy that specific illness or injury
3. Entered electronically.

[Delawaretrainer]

It is time for all medications, treatments, special shoeing, etc... to require a diagnosis and prescription from a veterinarian, and be electronically entered into a database, which can be referenced for future vet exams and available to owners, trainers, and horseplayers.


ALL OF IT
1.Diagnosis by the Vet of an illness or injury
2.Prescription of a certain drug or treatment that is meant to remedy that specific illness or injury
3. Entered electronically.

I agree, however it may be difficult to police with trainers offsite that may be able to treat the horse themselves. Remember even at beautiful Fair Hill you can have needles and those horses ship in to run against ours every day.

I worry about joint injection history and things that would make a horse crash. I'm assuming thyro-l would be one of those things. This really ticks md off because I would never have thought that a horses body was withdrawing from this. Wonder if that would explain hair loss?

Not so worried about shoe history. Really don't think you need a vet rx for this.